Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: Bartie on December 02, 2007, 11:04:43 am
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Hi, I`m thinking of buying an M8,but first I would like a bit of feedback from you people out there that are using this camera,what does it handle like,what is the quality of the prints it produces and also what lens I should start with.
Regards Andy
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If you've been accustomed to a Leica (or perhaps another rangefinder camera), it will handle just as you expected. It's a bit bigger/heavier than a film-M - someone described to to me as a M with 'love-handles.' But the wonderful sense of balance in your hand and eye is just the same as with film-Ms. The framelines seem, however, less accurate (which makes me thankful for 'instant replay' on the LCD).
The prints, assuming you have a 17" printer & go up to about A4/15x22.5", are a little bit smoother and creamier than 5D prints, and - because of the crop factor - sharper in the corners. People say that 20x30" prints look good too, but I haven't examined any. The downside is that newer Leica lenses, which are coded to work with the UV-IR filter system, are rather disturbingly contrasty if you're used to older Leitz lenses or big ol' DSLR zooms. You'll sometimes have to do a bit of contrast reduction in Photoshop (or use older lenses). See reviews below, for problems of lense choices & coding.
With a 1.33 crop factor, a 35mm lens is equivalent to a film-camera 50 (actually a 35mm becomes a 47). For the 'classic' film-Leica 35mm point-of-view, you have 2 choices: 24mm (=33mm) or 28mm (=37mm). If you wear glasses, the latter is more practical because it's hard to see the 24mm framelines. Longer lenses than 50mm (=65mm), because of the crop factor & the small viewing area, are not entirely practical.
The M8 is a wonderful but 'cranky' camera, & IMO nobody should buy one without first subscribing to & reading www.reidreviews.com. You'll find thorough discussions there about all the questions involving IR/UV filters, coding, & lens choices. You can also follow discussions by current users on http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/ (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/) - including some problems about quality control & slow customer service on lens coding. But overall, you'll encounter enthusiasm.
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I don't want this to sound patronizing, but given your questions, I'm not sure you'd want an M8. I would suggest that you buy a cheap used film M-mount rangefinder and a 35mm CV lens, which you could do for less than $1,000 (and later use the lens on a Leica, if you decided to buy it.) You could have the film developed at a kiosk and then cheaply scanned well enough to use it on the net; and you'd find out whether you really desperately want a rangefinder. A lot of people get them and then later find out that they really weren't that desperate....8-)
IMHO you desperately need to want a rangefinder to put up with an M8. Mine spent eight weeks in Germany getting fixed, broke again, and finally was replaced with a new one, which has generally worked fine. This is not an uncommon story for an M8 owner, but it may take you aback when you consider than an M8 and one fast Leica prime lens could easily cost you $8,000. And that the classic Leica 50mm f1 Noctilux at B&H now lists for $5,500...My Leica gear (one body and a bunch of lenses) would cost almost as much today as a top-end Hassy MF kit. Something to think about.
As for handling and image quality -- the IQ is excellent and somewhat different (I think better) than most digital cameras. The handling is classic Leica handling, which is excellent if you like classic Leica handling -- but some people find that they don't. Manual focus -- some people like fast grab shots, and it takes quite a bit of work before you can do that with a Leica. Not like pushing the button on a Nikon or a Canon and having the instant AF; you can miss a lot of shots before you really get it working.
JC
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The M8 appears to have lots of very enthusiastic supporters (including me) but a fair few detractors, largely due to some quality control and service issues.
For me the M8 has performed almost flawlessly. It handles beautifully, the image quality is simply superb and the Leica lenses I have are wonderfully sharp from corner to corner. This does not come without significant cost though! The M8 and just one of the top Leica lenses will set you back something close to the Canon 1DsMk3 price.
When I first used the M8 I was completely blown away by the quality of the images coming straight off the camera into Aperture. They have a feel unlike the Canon lenses I am used to. I have printed them at A3+ and they simply terrific. I would imagine they'll go a good bit larger but haven't yet tried.
In terms of first lens I would personally choose a 35mm focal length as it is the near equivalent of 50mm on film due to the 1.3x lens factor. You may be happy with something a little wider. I am keen on landscapes and have 28, 35, 50 and 75mm lenses. The 35mm stays on the camera about 90% of the time. If you haven't used a rangefinder before be prepared to get used to manual focussing, to learn about hyperfocal distance, to use a viewfinder that has frame lines according to which lens is fitted, and so on. No autofocus! It is a very different experience but one I like enormously. Using the viewfinder does take some getting used to - frame lines, which are only precise at a particular subject distance, are used as a guide to the image frame. I know this sounds odd if you're used to SLRs but actually it helps with composition given that more of the scene is also present.
An M8 (for me anyway) does not completely replace my Canon. It is lousy to use with long lenses. Anything over about 100mm is best done on a DSLR. Macro is also better on the Canon. Filtering with a polariser or ND grad is also best done on the Canon. All of these are possible on the M8, but quite a performance.
There have been real problems too. Some users on the various forums have reported cameras that just stop working, back-focussing issues and more. I have had no problems at all after some 4000 frames. I am an amateur and do not rely on the device for my income, nor do I give it the abuse that some may give it. It just works and provides me with superb image quality. And I like using it.
I would echo the advice to read Sean Reid's review (subscription based), the LL reports and look out on the Leica User Forum (in the M8 category).
Pete
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Thanks for the feedback guys,I already use a 1DSmk2 and a collection of L glass and I take Landscapes most of the time.The image quality on this beast is second to none. What I`m after is a Camera that I can carry around when I`m out on the streets,reasonably small and light(which the 1DSmk2 is not),I know this might sound stupid ,I want to take a step back to working out the exposure,manually focusing a subject etc,but I also want the quality.I`ve spent to much money on all my digital gear to go back to film.
When I started out in photography 20 odd years ago I always wanted a Leica,but could never afford one,I can`t afford one now but to hell with it.I don`t want to be the richest man in the graveyard.
Andy
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Hi, I`m thinking of buying an M8,but first I would like a bit of feedback from you people out there that are using this camera,what does it handle like,what is the quality of the prints it produces and also what lens I should start with.
Regards Andy
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Good quality images, very prone to breakdowns.
Edmund
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Before buying one, you should go to the leica m8 forum:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/ (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/)
There's a thread there entitled "Woody Spedden, Gone from Leica." Woody S. contributes often to Fred Miranda discussions. He's used quite a few cameras (I think 1DsII, Leica DMR, Lecia M8), and apparently loved the M8 for several months. He decided because of quality and service problems to ditch the system for good. Worth reading and thinking about. Woody always had a measured, well-reasoned tone to his posts.
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Even knowing the Leica fans will kill me, I don't think Leica has had a very good start in digital with the M8, not at least if we take into account its cost. It's not only about the issues that arised (magenta cast fixed through physical IR filters), but also about some design decisions that didn't seem totally right for this range of camera (I mainly question the 8-bit DNG files).
I would wait to see what happens next. You could buy a second hand film Leica meanwhile to find out if rangefinder is what you are really looking for.
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I mainly question the 8-bit DNG files.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157748\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This put me off but after trying out an M8 I eventually bought one. So far it has performed absolutely fine, but what really does intrigue me is that it seems to deliver absoultely stunning files which despite being 8-bit DNG files yield beautiful image 'quality' and wonderful prints even after any required adjustments - as a Canon user with L glass primes I would go as far as to say that for certain image matter (landscape/street shots) I find the Leica files easier to produce good prints from. Now I'm really not extolling its abilities because I've bought one but because I am genuinely intrigued by this and wonder exactly what goes on inside the M8 to produce the 8-bit files!? Its jpeg files on the other hand DO leave a great deal to be desired and after the first time I used the camera I set it to RAW only which is where it will stay.
Perhaps I should also add that the M8 has and will not replace my Canons - each has their place - but will accompany/compliment/add to them when I need a lightweight or unobtrusive system. So my comments are not suggesting one system to be 'better' than the other - just different.
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The 8-bit RAW files from the M8 show a really clever way of putting the scene's information into just 8 bit samples. The magic is that M8's RAW encoding is not linear, so even if only 256 levels are available for each RAW sample they provide a good tradeoff between shadows and highlights definition since they are not linearly distributed over the linear range of luminance. In the shadows, the M8 devotes almost the same amount of definition as any 12-bit linear encoding, substracting this extra definition from the highlights where the number of levels in any 12-bit linear encoding is larger than really needed. So the result is a good effective dynamic range being encoded in just 8 bit samples.
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GLuijk
Many thanks for that clear, succinct explanation! Well it certainly speeds up my workflow for the subject matter that I am using the camera, for whilst still yielding excellent results. But perhaps that is the point - I'm using the camera for relatively limited applications which so far it seems to excel at. It would be helpful if Leica updated the firmware and gave users a choice but perhaps that will happen, or is it too problematic with the existing hardware? Anyway, I'm very satisfied with the camera within the role for which I bought and use it.
A couple more comments. Reliability issues (on all cameras) are difficult to guage from web reports as problems are too often what motivate people to post. So far I've had no issues with Canon's, nor any of their lenses nor the M8! I owned an M6 prior to the M8 but found that using a film camer alongside my Canons was simply not a viability - a personal opinion only, but you need to make the decision as to whether film really is still an option if you consider an older Leica (which are relatively cheap at the moment).
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Hi,
I was very close to buying the M8, my current camera is EOS 5d and Fuji S5. I was attracted to the M8 by various comments of users about image quality and the M8 being a sort of "digital MF camera in a small format". I had two opportunities to shot the M8 for a few hours
I had put - in my mind - a system together that was based upon the Voigtländer lenses that get very good reviews on reidreviews. I had ordered 2 Voigtländer lenses (75mm, 50mm) but was very much dissappointed by CA and lack of critical sharpness. That would have meant to buy only Leica lenses.
To make it short: I decided not to buy it for having too many drawbacks and flaws.
- rangefinder focussing was too slow for me
- the frame lines of the M8 are very unprecise in distances longer than 1,5 meters. Framing gets a kind of guessing game with the M8 and this is as frustrating as getting misfocus.
- I dislike the unelegant filter solution they have chosen for not getting the IR sensitivity right
- the price of a mainly Leica lens system can easily surpass 10k (that's 3 lenses, not more).
On the good side I can say that the pics I have taken with the 50mm Summicron were not only extremely sharp, they also enlarge smoothly and effortlessly to amazing sizes (larger than 17x24. 20x30 still looks good). The lack of AA filter introduces artefacts/ Moire in some pics, but the sharpness is biting and the base ISO (160) files are cleaner than my 5d. They have indeed something of a MF back look, just in smaller size.
Bernie
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There were very long and complicated discussions about that whole 8-bit file thing, the upshot of which is that the native output to the in-camera processors is actually (IIRC) 14 bit, which, with some complicated math applied, can be saved as 8 bit with no real loss of fidelity, because of the way the the bits are distributed over the camera's dynamic range. Leica claims (this is my boiled down version) that they only did this to cut file size when they realized they could do it without losing anything -- a form of lossless compression. It effectively makes your memory card larger at no cost..
There are people who still claim that there MUST be some loss, but nobody has demonstrated any.
JC
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Consider an XT or XTi. With a Contax 35-70 you'll get great quality, or you could use a few Olympus primes. All MF of course, the same as an M8, but much smaller than typical AF Canon lenses....
Mike
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I could borrow a m8 some time ago, while I found it was ok at the lowest ISO setting, I found it was lacking when used at iso 640 or higher. Of course you can use a tripod for landscape, for street photography this might be more of a problem, I would really like to see more DR at higher iso in a m9.
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I could borrow a m8 some time ago, while I found it was ok at the lowest ISO setting, I found it was lacking when used at iso 640 or higher. Of course you can use a tripod for landscape, for street photography this might be more of a problem, I would really like to see more DR at higher iso in a m9.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I found the M8 to have some of the sharpest lenses I have ever used, and also a beautiful camera for indoor imaging eg. receptions, concerts. Unfortunately the reliability problems are really bad, and two 5Ds cost as much as one M8. What can I say, it's a unique object, but no camera is useful if it's broken -
Edmund
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I found the M8 to have some of the sharpest lenses I have ever used, and also a beautiful camera for indoor imaging eg. receptions, concerts. Unfortunately the reliability problems are really bad, and two 5Ds cost as much as one M8. What can I say, it's a unique object, but no camera is useful if it's broken -
Edmund
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Hi Edmund. I guess the M lenses are among the finest in general, what I saw is that even the standard lens had lots of CA and not only in the corners.
Hope nobody takes offense
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I was happy I could evaluate the m8 with a friends camera. It is a nice camera, alltogether I found my 5D's had a bit more detail and less artefacts, on the wide angle side the Canon has some problems though.
Considering your point of sudden death issue I guess one has to consider to buy a second body to make sure you come home with the images.
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I was happy I could evaluate the m8 with a friends camera. It is a nice camera, alltogether I found my 5D's had a bit more detail and less artefacts, on the wide angle side the Canon has some problems though.
Considering your point of sudden death issue I guess one has to consider to buy a second body to make sure you come home with the images.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161401\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have an M8, 1DsMk3 had a 1DsMk2 and 5D. I would really say that the M8 is a fantastic camera. The lenses are su much better than anything Canon has to other. I sold my 5D when I got my M8 because the quality was nearly better with the 5D. Especially everything down from 50mm is just amazing.
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I got the M8 for portraits, street shooting and travel, where the size of a large DSLR is too big. Then I discovered that the wide lenses were so much better than soft Canon wide L glass that the little camera worked very well as a landscape camera. I only use my DSLR for telephoto now and rather than update with the EOS D1sIII will merely go with a cropped sensor since all I use it for is telephoto. My only reason for a full sensor was for wides, including the 24 tilt-shift, but the leica glass wide is so much better, I have not shot the Canon wide since.
All this said, the camera is quirky and not for everyone. Today's report from Russell in L_L is right on. And if you have never used range-finders before (I had), you may not like the adjustment. Don't bother trying a film range-finder first. Find someone to loan you an M8 for an hour. If you can find someone who will give it up for an hour.
Regarding the cost, I already had M glass, if I had to start from scratch with lenses, I may not have tried the M8 as being too expensive a system. Since buying it, I have found myself justifying my investing in an additional two lenses for a cost that exceeds a new 1DsIII.
Regarding reliability, I have never lost an image or shooting opportunity yet, knock on glass, but all the stories made me worry. The camera survived a fall better than my Canon did. I have had the camera since last November.
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I've been a Leica user all of my career. I started off with an M2 in High School and own three film M cameras and two M8's.
I am a rangefinder guy who also uses the 1Ds III and occasionally a medium format digital camera.
The M8 is a very different beast than an M6 or M4. I've had one body replaced by Leica and know several people who have true horror stories relating to M8 bodies failing. I love my Leica camera but there is no way I would ever trust an assignment to just one M8 camera. Leica is trying very hard to get this camera right and they have made adjustments along the way. They have been very helpful to me and I think the next version of the camera will be significantly better. Leica had a bit of bad luck in the beginning and some bad press regarding the infrared problem.
If you are not a rangefinder guy, I wonder why in the world you would want to explore the system. They are expensive, the lenses are out-of-this-world in quality and the cost to get into a basic kit is pretty high.
The quality of the files is stellar. Capture One and Raw Developer bring out loads of detail if you hold off on sharpening. Photo Mechanic is now supporting the DNG files and Aperture, ACR and Lightroom do a pretty good job on conversions.
It's funny, how some people are just now coming around to the fact that this little German company makes an amazing camera system that is not the same as everything else on the market.
They are not for everyone, but if it fits your style, they are killer cameras.
I do think it is very funny, how people who have not used the Leica would call it a toy for Doctors and Dentists - but once they use it, it becomes a professional tool.
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They are not for everyone, but if it fits your style, they are killer cameras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161745\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is the perfect summary
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The file quality IS stellar, they are wonderful toys, and wonderful cameras, BUT they are not anywhere near the original Leica in reliability anymore. They break down without warning, while the film rangefinder Leicas were the most reliable cameras ever made after the Kodak box.
Edmund
The quality of the files is stellar. Capture One and Raw Developer bring out loads of detail if you hold off on sharpening. Photo Mechanic is now supporting the DNG files and Aperture, ACR and Lightroom do a pretty good job on conversions.
It's funny, how some people are just now coming around to the fact that this little German company makes an amazing camera system that is not the same as everything else on the market.
They are not for everyone, but if it fits your style, they are killer cameras.
I do think it is very funny, how people who have not used the Leica would call it a toy for Doctors and Dentists - but once they use it, it becomes a professional tool.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161745\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The file quality IS stellar, they are wonderful toys, and wonderful cameras, BUT they are not anywhere near the original Leica in reliability anymore. They break down without warning, while the film rangefinder Leicas were the most reliable cameras ever made after the Kodak box.
Edmund
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Sure, but there's a whole heck of a lot more going on in a digital camera than there is in a film camera. I mean, a film camera is a lens and a light box. Go full manual and you have something you can soak and it will come up fine. Digital has TONS of stuff going on.
Of course, the other folks (Canon, Nikon, etc.) can produce reliable digital SLRs but they're still not as robust and reliable as a manual film camera. And Leica doesn't have near the electronic experience that these guys have, nor do they have nearly the workforce. I'd expect that, given time, and given enough sales, they'll get to "reliable enough for it not to be an issue." Maybe I'll buy my "dentist-toy-cum-professional-tool" around the M9 or M10 timeframe
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I`m glad that I started this thread,it has been a mine of information.After hearing all the comments made,good and bad, my heart says buy it now! But my head says, wait for the next model to come out.Maybe by then Leica will have ironed out all the problems.
Buying into this system would cost me around £5000 for Body and Lens.That`s a lot of money to spend and hope that you`ve had "A good" M8.So I might just hang back a while and see what Leica come up with.I hope it`s sooner than later.
Regards Andy
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I know this is late, but here is a test I did with the Leica M8 at 640 ISO. I could not believe the image quality after upsizing and printing 21 inches wide at 290.
I really want one but may have to wait for the M9.. if it ever happens. full frame?
http://p45plus.typepad.com/blog/2008/01/leica-m8.html (http://p45plus.typepad.com/blog/2008/01/leica-m8.html)
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As far as unreliable, any camera maker or model can have problems, have had an M8 for about 9 mos. Went through an initial stage without UV/IR filters and then upgrades and filters and now have a camera that works fairly well. Never been back to Germany or anywhere else. Other makers and models have issues to, have had two Canons replaced, died within 2 weeks or 6 mos, a S3 having power issues and a power module, whatever, that was replaced. Stuff happens...period. That said, M8 is a tool for a certain type of shooting, nothing less, nothing more. It appeals to some who appreciate it at a cost, and not so much for others.
As a camera, for what it is, it is great, small, light, inconspicuous, no it is not the best for long tele or macro, DUH.....what do you want. I shoot it along side of my dslrs, not in place of them. As for lenses, I have Leica, Zeiss and CV. They all work very well. Looking at prints, even larger prints, 16x24+, they look great. I can shoot wide angles that are sharp corner to corner, not such an easy task with the 5D I had, but that is another story. Look at prints, not your monitor as a final test. IF you only looking at a monitor for useage, buy a P&S. It is the best camera for B&W since my Hassies. Use it for its strengths, end of story. Don't worry about the rest, JMHO
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I'm on my fourth M8 body. They kept failing. Maybe I'm just plain out of luck, but I wish I could have won the lottery four times instead
And indeed, it is small, the lenses are super-sharp and the B&W images look like nothing else I own. It's got all those strengths you mention, but bad reliability.
Edmund
As far as unreliable, any camera maker or model can have problems, have had an M8 for about 9 mos. Went through an initial stage without UV/IR filters and then upgrades and filters and now have a camera that works fairly well. Never been back to Germany or anywhere else. Other makers and models have issues to, have had two Canons replaced, died within 2 weeks or 6 mos, a S3 having power issues and a power module, whatever, that was replaced. Stuff happens...period. That said, M8 is a tool for a certain type of shooting, nothing less, nothing more. It appeals to some who appreciate it at a cost, and not so much for others.
As a camera, for what it is, it is great, small, light, inconspicuous, no it is not the best for long tele or macro, DUH.....what do you want. I shoot it along side of my dslrs, not in place of them. As for lenses, I have Leica, Zeiss and CV. They all work very well. Looking at prints, even larger prints, 16x24+, they look great. I can shoot wide angles that are sharp corner to corner, not such an easy task with the 5D I had, but that is another story. Look at prints, not your monitor as a final test. IF you only looking at a monitor for useage, buy a P&S. It is the best camera for B&W since my Hassies. Use it for its strengths, end of story. Don't worry about the rest, JMHO
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=165876\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I have paid my price with issues with 3 5Ds so I feel your pain. But after reading your comments I now feel lucky in comparison with the M8. Funny so far I have not had significant issues with any of the Nikon bodies I have had. Others have had similar issues with their Nikons. I guess we really have to realize that cameras are cutting edge technology to a huge extent and quality control is not what it once was in almost anything in todays disposible society. Many folk including me take it forgranted that some one can have totally the opposite experience as they do with the same gear.......sorry....
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I have paid my price with issues with 3 5Ds so I feel your pain. But after reading your comments I now feel lucky in comparison with the M8. Funny so far I have not had significant issues with any of the Nikon bodies I have had. Others have had similar issues with their Nikons. I guess we really have to realize that cameras are cutting edge technology to a huge extent and quality control is not what it once was in almost anything in todays disposible society. Many folk including me take it forgranted that some one can have totally the opposite experience as they do with the same gear.......sorry....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=165894\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I found mine to be excellent and gone thru many thousand shots and loving it. At least for a camera of such sensor size, does tell that in digital capture era, how important the lens quality is.
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I like my M8, mainly because the body and lenses are compact enough to easily fit into carry-on flight luggage. And the file quality is very good, although not significantly better than 5D files. It's been reasonably reliable except for one occasion in steamy, mid-day Karachi when it simply failed, although a few hours in an air conditioned hotel room brought it back to life. It handles like all the Leica rangefinders I've used for thirty years, except for the horrible shutter which sounds like a breaking spring!
All in all, a good camera, but not quite a great one.
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I know this is late, but here is a test I did with the Leica M8 at 640 ISO. I could not believe the image quality after upsizing and printing 21 inches wide at 290.
I really want one but may have to wait for the M9.. if it ever happens. full frame?
For those interested, here is a discussion of very large prints from the M8. For some inexplicable reason, it's files seem to be very agreeable with large amounts of up-rezzing: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=499 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=499)
Cheers,
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I just purchased an M8 after trying it at my local dealer Pictureline. It really is an amazing 10MP camera. I processed the files to be around 25MP and they look amazing. Way sharper than my D2X and for a camera that is so small and light, just great. This camera will be the perfect compliment to my Phase One P45+. In fact I will call it my 'Baby Phase' because of its rugged all metal build and outstanding image quality.
JP
http://www.p45plus.typepad.com (http://www.p45plus.typepad.com)
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Reviewing this thread a number of posters have commented on the entry cost to the system. This is really the lens cost, not to say the body is cheap but it is in that Pro body area. The selection of S/H lenses, most owned by amateurs who make the "cherished by one owner" description true, for once, is large; perhaps with the exception of the wides which M owners have snapped up due to the crop.
The ability to put on virtually any M series lens made since 1950 odd opens up a world of choice as not everyone wants the razor sharp ASPH look.
The assumption seems to be price it all from new and gasp. Whilst Canon L glass does appear to cost almost as much S/H as new from some dealers the Leica glass shows a healthy discount from new at which it is stable. The legendary build quality which the M8 has somewhat tarnished, and I personally still wish it felt more like an MP in the hand which it patently does not, means the glass is a sound S/H buy backed by a first class repair service even back to those early lenses.
At the end of the day few photographers have not wanted to own a Leica or a Hasselblad or both. When you have you may hate it/them but it will be out of your system or in it or ever. Was it Michael who said he would only let go of his M8 when prised from his cold dead hand? (apologies if paraphrased).