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Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: wtlloyd on November 28, 2007, 11:30:58 am

Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: wtlloyd on November 28, 2007, 11:30:58 am
Ok, Ok, I'll buy it....but surely the photo of Jeff holding the book, with his head cut off in the photo, is making a bit of a joke....
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Schewe on November 28, 2007, 02:19:28 pm
Quote
Ok, Ok, I'll buy it....but surely the photo of Jeff holding the book, with his head cut off in the photo, is making a bit of a joke....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156672\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Actually, Michael got the shot from me...it's MY crop...ya gotta problem with that?

:~)
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Adam L on November 28, 2007, 02:31:43 pm
I'm trying to understand if this book is for me.   I primarily use Lightroom to convert my raw images.  I tend to follow the top to bottom approach using the controls on the right side of the screen.   I use my eyeballs to judge the changes in the image - once it looks good, I stop.

When watching the camera to print video at one point Michael pushed the dark slider way to the right.  Much further than I've done in the past.  I didn't fully understand the reasoning behind this selection but I reasoned that it was really an artistic decision rather than a technical one.  I thought the 'auto' tone feature sets to what's technically correct, but not always pleasing.

Will reading this book give me a new perspective on how to adjust the image?  For someone who is self taught and does photography as a hobby can this have a positive impact on the quality of my images?

Changing the subject for just a second (it's been a while since I've posted), I asked my wife to watch the C2P segment on framing and matting.  I was hopeful that she would show an interest and perhaps take on this aspect for me.   Ten minutes into the segment, her first comment  'wow, look at that guy's (Michael) watch, it's amazing.'   I got a good chuckle when hearing that.  She also commented on Jeff's shirt but I won't go there.  
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Fred Ragland on November 28, 2007, 02:53:37 pm
Most of us won't get through the book in 4 hours as Michael did, but for those who persist, the payoff is there.  As Michael says, "It not only tells you how but why...If I can learn why something is done the way it is...then how to accomplish it is trivial."

Highly recommended.

Fred
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: jwhee0615 on November 28, 2007, 03:14:06 pm
Well I was wondering when this book would hit the shelves! Had the one for CS2 and have been looking forward to this edition. Look forward to reading your work Jeff. Thank Michael for the heads up and review.

Jeff
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: bob mccarthy on November 28, 2007, 03:49:33 pm
Just picked it up at Barnes and Nobel. It's on the shelf.

Bob
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Marlyn on November 28, 2007, 07:29:46 pm
Ordered from Amazon already

Should be home by the time I am in a few weeks !.

Looking forward to it. I use ACR and lightroom pretty much similar to the poster above (run down the controls till things look ok) and I am positive I am leaving a lot behind on the table with regards developing my photo's.

Regards

Mark.


PS: I enjoyed C2P, the Lightroom tutorial and have devoured every LLVJ.  Look forward to more and keep up the good work folks.
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: digitaldog on November 28, 2007, 08:35:10 pm
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I'm trying to understand if this book is for me.   I primarily use Lightroom to convert my raw images. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Considering the processing pipeline in CR and LR are the same, I'd say yes, you'll get a lot out of the book since so much good information would then pertain to the develop module.
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: John.Murray on November 28, 2007, 08:49:48 pm
Quote
Actually, Michael got the shot from me...it's MY crop...ya gotta problem with that?

:~)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually - after minor surgery involving a piano hinge, he now has a place to store extra copies
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Marty C on November 28, 2007, 08:51:51 pm
Quote
Considering the processing pipeline in CR and LR are the same, I'd say yes, you'll get a lot out of the book since so much good information would then pertain to the develop module.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You are so right about the information on the develop module. I can tell you from experience that this book has really helped with the Lightroom learning curve.
     
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 28, 2007, 08:55:31 pm
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Will reading this book give me a new perspective on how to adjust the image?  For someone who is self taught and does photography as a hobby can this have a positive impact on the quality of my images?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The short answer is yes. I have also skimmed the book, now I'm into detailed reading. It is an excellent book - no question about it. It explains everything, and therefore everything you need to know, which for most of us will be important subsets of the total.

What's important is not only how to adjust images, but also the workflow - how to make the program improve image processing efficiency. There are many nooks and crannies to this and the book explains them.

But if adjusting images is your main focus, chapters 4 and 5 provide a real solid hands-on foundation in how to use this program to greatest advantage. Their advice is to use Camera Raw to the fullest before rendering to Photoshop, and they show what that means with real-world examples.

The important thing about this version of the program, and therefore one of the important things about the book, is that the functionality of CR4.1 is a major set of steps up from 3.7 - a great many more tools, and therefore an even greater number of permutations and combinations for how they can be combined to solve a wide range of image adjustment issues. The book steers through the logic of the adjustment process, showing how various controls work with eachother and how to use them together in a very practical way.  

I'm not selling work, I'm also self-taught, I've adjusted about 1600 images with CR 4.x since it became available and tried all kinds of cool things  with it - even written some stuff on this website about them, but I'm still reading this book line by line because I too am discovering things.

My recommendation: buy, enjoy and benefit.
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on November 29, 2007, 12:36:45 am
Quote
Actually, Michael got the shot from me...it's MY crop...ya gotta problem with that?

:~)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The mystery deepens. What nefarious reason could Jeff have for not wanting to let us see his pet tarantual on top of his head?  

Actually, I like the photo, but I'd like it better if it showed your bike.  
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: jjj on November 29, 2007, 09:17:37 am
This quote from Michael's review is something every teacher should take heed of.

"But if I can learn why something is done the way it is, and what is happening behind the scenes, then how to accomplish it become trivial and often obvious."

I find if you teach principles rather than facts, the students learn more, learn better and learn faster too.  
I'm looking forward to increasing my understanding of RAW, when I get myself a copy.
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: KeithR on November 29, 2007, 09:38:30 am
Quote
This quote from Michael's review is something every teacher should take heed of.

"But if I can learn why something is done the way it is, and what is happening behind the scenes, then how to accomplish it become trivial and often obvious."

I find if you teach principles rather than facts, the students learn more, learn better and learn faster too. 
I'm looking forward to increasing my understanding of RAW, when I get myself a copy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156936\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Have to agree here. I found that after I read the first RW Camera Raw book, my understanding the benifits of raw went through the roof. Can't wait to get into this latest version.
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Schewe on November 29, 2007, 10:03:06 am
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The mystery deepens. What nefarious reason could Jeff have for not wanting to let us see his pet tarantual on top of his head?   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I like tight crops...in portraits, it's the eyes & the mouth that tell the story. Who cares about seeing the TOP of somebody's head?

No mystery, I didn't have a hair stylist for the shoot and the top of my head was showing how little hair is left up there. So, I cropped it at my strong forehead!
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on November 29, 2007, 10:36:07 am
Quote
I like tight crops...in portraits, it's the eyes & the mouth that tell the story. Who cares about seeing the TOP of somebody's head?

No mystery, I didn't have a hair stylist for the shoot and the top of my head was showing how little hair is left up there. So, I cropped it at my strong forehead!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156942\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As someone who also has a "wide part" hair style, I appreciate the crop.

I do like the portrait, too, but I felt the OP's comment required a reply.

But, I'll have to say: If I had to choose between the portrait and the book, I'd choose the book, which is likely to do more to improve my own RAW processing.  
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: James R on November 29, 2007, 11:28:41 am
Quote
I like tight crops...in portraits, it's the eyes & the mouth that tell the story. Who cares about seeing the TOP of somebody's head?

No mystery, I didn't have a hair stylist for the shoot and the top of my head was showing how little hair is left up there. So, I cropped it at my strong forehead!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156942\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Crop another 6" off and you would look fabulous.
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: reyn_two on November 29, 2007, 12:31:19 pm
Buy it from Amazon UK it's only $59.4227 + postage.
Seriously this rip off of the  British (Germans/Australians etc) has got to stop.
I bought the first book but I won't buy this version no matter how good it is until Amazon's import partners get to work and bring the price down to somewhere near parity with the US. I have no doubt the content is worth much more than this and I may be p***ing in the wind but the difference is too much to live with.
And Amazon say I'm saving £3.20 -  speechless
Frank
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: John Camp on November 29, 2007, 12:47:47 pm
Quote
Buy it from Amazon UK it's only $59.4227 + postage.
Seriously this rip off of the  British (Germans/Australians etc) has got to stop.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156992\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wouldn't swear to this, but I'm pretty sure that the Brits and perhaps some of the Europeans have laws that attempt to protect small bookstores from predatory pricing by the chains. Independent bookstores have essentially been wiped out in the US since about 1990, leaving chains, both large and small, but chains nevertheless. I owned part of a small bookstore that went under in the mid-90s in the US. We were small enough that we couldn't afford to buy from individual publishers (who had minimum orders) and so had to buy from middle-men distributors who'd sell us a package of books from all the publishers. The problem was, the distributor's price was more than the retail price of a book when bought from places like WalMart, and not much lower than prices at places like Borders or Barnes & Noble or Amazon. In fact, there were times when we had demand for a best-seller, we'd go over to Costco and buy a bunch of books and resell them in our store, because the Costco price was lower than the price we could get from our distributor.

So, as I understand it, the price you pay for a book in Britain or in Europe is, in some part, a subsidy to keep the small stores from going under. There are both problems and benefits with this...but that's what you're paying for.

JC
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: mtomalty on November 29, 2007, 12:50:02 pm
Check out this 'uncropped' version to get a better understanding of Jeff's
decision to supply a cropped image
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 29, 2007, 12:55:46 pm
Quote
Buy it from Amazon UK it's only $59.4227 + postage.
Seriously this rip off of the  British (Germans/Australians etc) has got to stop.
I bought the first book but I won't buy this version no matter how good it is until Amazon's import partners get to work and bring the price down to somewhere near parity with the US. I have no doubt the content is worth much more than this and I may be p***ing in the wind but the difference is too much to live with.
And Amazon say I'm saving £3.20 -  speechless
Frank
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156992\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you buy from Amazon US (which you can do by setting up an account with them) they will ship internationally. It will take several weeks to get to the UK, but the all-in cost will likely be much lower. Even living in Canada where Amazon also has a portal I usually find it cheaper to order direct from the USA.
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: reyn_two on November 29, 2007, 01:02:29 pm
So, as I understand it, the price you pay for a book in Britain or in Europe is, in some part, a subsidy to keep the small stores from going under. There are both problems and benefits with this...but that's what you're paying for.

JC
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157000\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

The only reason I posted was that I clicked on Michaels link to Amazon US and saw it was  List Price:     $44.99
Price:    $29.69 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping. Details
You Save:    $15.30 (34%)

and I thought great I'll have that, went to AMZ uk and saw it was £28, in my annoyance I dashed off the post which I stand by, I have now calmed down a bit and revisited
AMZ UK and found a link to one of the importers advertising there. I can buy it imported from USA for £15.17 with £2.75 postage so contrary to my rant I am going away to order a copy. You will no doubt be relieved to hear that, the going away part I mean.  

Frank
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: reyn_two on November 29, 2007, 01:04:33 pm
Quote
Check out this 'uncropped' version to get a better understanding of Jeff's
decision to supply a cropped image
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157001\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Made my day
Frank
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Phuong on November 29, 2007, 01:21:55 pm
Quote
If you buy from Amazon US (which you can do by setting up an account with them) they will ship internationally. It will take several weeks to get to the UK, but the all-in cost will likely be much lower. Even living in Canada where Amazon also has a portal I usually find it cheaper to order direct from the USA.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157004\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

that is very true. i usually check out the book at chapters-indigo store if it's there. if i love it, i then go home and order it from Amazon US. they got great price, fast shipping, and no tax.
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: bobrobert on November 29, 2007, 02:26:20 pm
Quote
Check out this 'uncropped' version to get a better understanding of Jeff's
decision to supply a cropped image
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157001\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Two "silly" questions For someone who has CS2 is there anything in the book that is back wards compatible I looked at the possiblity of buying the book for CS2 released a couple of years ago and then realised that camera raw3.7 was an up date after the book's publication Does the update in any way invalidate the book's contents and make it less worthy? TIA
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: framah on November 29, 2007, 03:19:50 pm
Looks like Don Kings illegitimate son!!  
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Schewe on November 29, 2007, 03:58:34 pm
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Two "silly" questions For someone who has CS2 is there anything in the book that is back wards compatible
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157032\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Uh, you SERIOUSLY want to evaluate upgrading to CS3 and Camera Raw 4.x. The new edition covers Camera Raw 4 and a whole big chunk of the book was dedicated towards the vast multitudes of new features in 4.x vs. 3.x.

If you're on CS2, the new book will really only depress you on how much of the new Camera Raw won't apply to your version.
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: picnic on November 29, 2007, 06:50:08 pm
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Have to agree here. I found that after I read the first RW Camera Raw book, my understanding the benifits of raw went through the roof. Can't wait to get into this latest version.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156939\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have the original book also---and wondering if I should buy the new version.  Any comments about whether one would benefit from buying it?

Diane
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 29, 2007, 07:06:08 pm
Quote
I have the original book also---and wondering if I should buy the new version.  Any comments about whether one would benefit from buying it?

Diane
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157098\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Diane. Please read post #11. That will answer your question. Unfortunately it is co-mingled amongst all those other more entertaining posts about Jeff's hair-do or lack thereof, so perhaps you missed it because the fun seems to be overwhelming the content. That's OK, fun is fun - but your question is dealt with - except I would only add for emphasis that Camera Raw 4.x  is so far more developed than anything that existed before it that you cannot possibly depend on the original book to take you anwhere close to becoming up-to-speed on the new application. If you're really serious about getting to *know* CR 4.x, combined with practice, this book is in the category of "required reading".
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: KeithR on November 29, 2007, 07:33:29 pm
Quote
I have the original book also---and wondering if I should buy the new version.  Any comments about whether one would benefit from buying it?

Diane
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157098\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Since SO much has happened to ACR, and V4.x has proven to confirm this, I would say that, yes, the benefits of this "updated" version is a must have. Since you have the older version, there will be an overlap of info as some things don't change all that much, so you'll find that you will no doubt skim through some areas, while other spots will make you stop and really read in depth.
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: picnic on November 29, 2007, 10:19:59 pm
Quote
Diane. Please read post #11. That will answer your question.
snip
 except I would only add for emphasis that Camera Raw 4.x  is so far more developed than anything that existed before it that you cannot possibly depend on the original book to take you anwhere close to becoming up-to-speed on the new application. If you're really serious about getting to *know* CR 4.x, combined with practice, this book is in the category of "required reading".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Mark.  I've read the post and am off to buy it.  That answered it completely.

Diane
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Eli Burakian on November 30, 2007, 01:33:54 am
I'm excited to get it.

I haven't really used ACR since lightroom came out though.  As mentioned before, it seems like this would work for my Lightroom workflow as well, but are there any major differences in the processing pipeline (at least for the Develop Module) between Lightroom and ACR?

Also, Jeff, thank you for carrying on the tradition and keeping to the highest standards.  I'm sure Bruce would be proud...of your new haircut.
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: John.Murray on December 03, 2007, 11:45:09 pm
I finally got my copy early this afternoon, and now at 8:30pm and at page 100 something - it's probably time to get some dinner . . . .

I can't recommend this book enough to anyone - many of the concepts I sorta "knew" were crystallized.  The control by control explanations are much appreciated - thank you for a great discussion of HSL; several of my favorite images already stand to be much better.

Skimming forward a bit (I live near the section of Interstate 5 closed by flooding for the next 3 days ) the discussion of Bridge, metadata and batching promises to help me be a better organized processor - increasing my time doing what I love - outdoors, *seeing* and maybe even capturing a few!

Nice book! I owe you a beer Jeff  (and raise my glass to Bruce) . . . .
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Schewe on December 05, 2007, 01:31:00 am
Quote
Nice book! I owe you a beer Jeff  (and raise my glass to Bruce) . . . .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158075\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for the kind words, beer is accepted, but in honor of Bruce, a nice single malt Scotch is preferred....

:~)
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: westbourne on December 05, 2007, 03:07:59 am
Quote
Buy it from Amazon UK it's only $59.4227 + postage.
Seriously this rip off of the  British (Germans/Australians etc) has got to stop.
I bought the first book but I won't buy this version no matter how good it is until Amazon's import partners get to work and bring the price down to somewhere near parity with the US. I have no doubt the content is worth much more than this and I may be p***ing in the wind but the difference is too much to live with.
And Amazon say I'm saving £3.20 -  speechless
Frank
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156992\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is not a rip off, in GBP this pretty much on the nose for this type of specialist publication. The market for this type of publication is pitifully small in the UK, add in the import costs on top of the normal publication cost and the publishers unit cost shoots up. Perhaps if you can persuade the publisher not  to make a profit , Jeff not to take any royalties and the printer to print for free you might have a book that costs £5.00,  otherwise forget it.

Bite the bullet, buy it and learn. Better still go to your local independent bookstore and order it and speak to a real person, they could probably do with your business whilst Amazon could not care less if they never heard from you again.

Ian
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: reyn_two on December 05, 2007, 07:43:56 am
Quote
This is not a rip off, in GBP this pretty much on the nose for this type of specialist publication. The market for this type of publication is pitifully small in the UK, add in the import costs on top of the normal publication cost and the publishers unit cost shoots up. Perhaps if you can persuade the publisher not  to make a profit , Jeff not to take any royalties and the printer to print for free you might have a book that costs £5.00,  otherwise forget it.

Bite the bullet, buy it and learn. Better still go to your local independent bookstore and order it and speak to a real person, they could probably do with your business whilst Amazon could not care less if they never heard from you again.

Ian
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158345\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's your opinion which I do not agree with, if the Authors, Publishers and Amazon can make their cut from $28 in the USA are you trying to say that the cost of transport and importation is the other $28 Amazon UK charge, of course it's not.
On Amazon's UK site there are several importers who are selling this book from the USA from $32 so I would say that importing the book costs approx $5.

I have paid $34 from the book_depository advertised on Amazons site and I am satisfied with that.

At my age I don't take kindly to being preached to about where I buy and how much I pay, if you want to pay over the odds to support your local bookstore that's your perogative, I don't.

Frank
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: usathyan on December 05, 2007, 11:06:49 am
After looking at the book in the B&N Store, i felt the book covered the topics i was already familiar with and knew about them. I decided to order it anyways - I wanted to get it as a tribute to Bruce Fraser.

However - upon reading details - i am really learning something new. Thanks for the updates Jeff - its very well worth getting the book and reading it throughly - even for experts/professional etc. There are a lot of nifty little pieces of info. that makes me wonder - now, why didnt i think of that before?

One great tip was in the sreenshot that organized images (DAM) - in Event, Place, People and Other - what a novel idea! - everything fits nicely....

Now, i need to figure out how to reorganize my 200+ mis-organized keyword categories in LR?
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: jhaagsma on December 09, 2007, 03:45:02 pm
I do not own CS3 (far too expensive for me), but I do have Elements 6, ACR 4.3 and Capture One LE 4 (beta). Is this book useful for someone with this software, or will I miss out too much because it discusses functions missing in Elements (I believe ACR is "crippled" as well using Elements)? If the book dicsusses features available in C1, I'll probably be able to "translate" them from ACR to C1.
Title: Micheal's review of Adobe Camera Raw book
Post by: Schewe on December 10, 2007, 01:22:26 pm
Quote
Is this book useful for someone with this software, or will I miss out too much because it discusses functions missing in Elements (I believe ACR is "crippled" as well using Elements)? If the book dicsusses features available in C1, I'll probably be able to "translate" them from ACR to C1.
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While some of the controls of Camera Raw 4.x are available in Elements 6, the book is written for Camera Raw 4, Bridge CS3 and Photoshop CS3. You will not be getting much if you are using Elements 6. Also, very little (besides the basics of digital capture covered in the opening chapters) would have ANY relevance to somebody using Capture One. So, I would save your money and use it elsewhere...