Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Sunesha on November 18, 2007, 04:09:32 pm

Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Sunesha on November 18, 2007, 04:09:32 pm: Good evening,

My name is Daniel, a photo enthusiast not a pro. I been using a local printshop for doing my prints. Which has become a quite expensive and unpredictable experience. My main software for printing is Adobe Lightroom with Photoshop CS2(havnt afford the upgrade yet).

The thing that puzzle my choices is print cost. I understood after I bought "Camera to print", which was excellent instruction video to start understand photo printing. The gear showcased there was execellent.

The price difference between the 2400 and 3800 is quite large. Also when to account the paper cost printing A2 size paper it was a bit higher. But on the other hand I am appealed to the bigger prints and the cartridges seems to hold more ink. But I have hard time to count the cost diffrence?

Also havnt read a good review of 2400, had read couple off 3800. Most the reviews read about 2400 hasnt really got me understanding what the diffrence would be beetween this two.

Anyone can explain how you make a cost estimation?

I think I would print around 20-30 A3 prints a month. I have calibrated screen and understand that part of printing. But as landscape, architecture photo enthusiast. I am not really sure what I am gonna be pleased with. If money wasnt a issue I would go for 24 inch printer in a heartbeat.

Are there any option in the price range of 2400 and 3800 worth looking at also?

As framing photos do you think a 13 inch printer makes a large enough print for a landscape with forest detail? (has mostly done 24-30inch(something, not used to the inch system) )

Got good source for very cheap frames(Ikea) ;-) and love giving away prints to friends, often photos of landscapes or buildings that has a special meaning for them. Sorry for my lengthy post, but having problems to decide for myself and looking for people to push me to any direction.

CHeers,
Daniel
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: John Hollenberg on November 18, 2007, 04:20:28 pm: I would definitely go for the 3800 over the 2400. Lower cost per ml of ink, and from reports signficantly less problems with clogging. Main drawback would be lack of roll feed.

If you are looking at a 17 inch printer in that price range, another choice would be the Canon iPF5000. Available at fire sale prices from itsupplies.com (and probably other places, but this is the lowest price I have seen and my dealings with itsupplies have been very good). The Canon is very large, and there are other factors that may be an issue. You can read more here:

http://canonipf.wikispaces.com (http://canonipf.wikispaces.com)

Edit: Just noticed you are in Sweden, don't know about availability of iPF5000 there.

--John
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Sunesha on November 18, 2007, 04:35:18 pm: Quote
I would definitely go for the 3800 over the 2400. Lower cost per ml of ink, and from reports signficantly less problems with clogging. Main drawback would be lack of roll feed.

If you are looking at a 17 inch printer in that price range, another choice would be the Canon iPF5000. Available at fire sale prices from itsupplies.com (and probably other places, but this is the lowest price I have seen and my dealings with itsupplies have been very good). The Canon is very large, and there are other factors that may be an issue. You can read more here:

http://canonipf.wikispaces.com (http://canonipf.wikispaces.com)

Edit: Just noticed you are in Sweden, don't know about availability of iPF5000 there.

--John
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Thanks alot John,

After following the link you provided I found alot off new review links that I havnt seen before. Also a user experience review that seem to be written by yours truly. Like user experience review more technical spec reviews. I now have alot more research to look into.

The iPF5000 and 3800 is about same price here in sweden after doing a price check with price checker tool. After thinking alot about I want a 17 inch more than a 13 inch. Bigger is more interestning in prints ;-)

Heh, always fun to do buy research almost as fun to use new equipment. Only bad thing that this printer is swallowed my scotland trip this summer. Gotta work so I afford anyway.

But I spend almost half a printer per year doing prints in printshops. Hopefully I will earn my printer in 2 years ;-)

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Marty C on November 18, 2007, 04:44:19 pm: The problem you run into will be the fact that you will out grow the printer. This has happened to me on many occasions. The list below goes back to 1995 when I started doing this. Most of the time I just needed a better and bigger printer, but there were some cases where I killed it trying 3rd party inks.

1995- Photo Sylus lasted 10 years
1998 Epson 1270 gave back to Epson
1999 Epson 2000 sold after 1 year
2001 Epson 1280 Killed with 3rd party Ink
2002 Epson 1160 Killed with 3rd party B&W ink
2002 Epson 2200 Alive and well
2005 Epson 9600 Sold after 1 year
2006 Epson 9800 Alive and well Great Printer
2007 Epson 3800 just ordered one.

As you can see, my printers have grown because of the larger sizes I do and that happened very fast. My advise to you is buy the 3800 if you can swing it. The 2400 is a great printer but it is to costly to run and it is getting old.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: John Hollenberg on November 18, 2007, 05:05:55 pm: Quote
After following the link you provided I found alot off new review links that I havnt seen before. Also a user experience review that seem to be written by yours truly. Like user experience review more technical spec reviews.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=153942\")

Yes, but don't let the review I wrote scare you off. A lot of things have improved since then, and we have so much information at the Wiki that I would say the iPF5000 is certainly a viable choice. As a matter of fact, I am planning to buy a 24 inch printer and the iPF6100 is at the top of my list, ahead of the Epson 7880.

For a listing of current Known Problems that might affect your purchase decision, see this link:

[a href=\"http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/Considerations+Before+Buying+This+Printer]http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/Considerati...ng+This+Printer[/url]

--John
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Ken Bennett on November 18, 2007, 09:14:32 pm: The difference between the initial cost of the two printers is about the same as a complete set of 80ml ink carts for the 3800. Given their larger capacity, you can make many more prints with the 3800 before you need to replace the carts (which are then less expensive per milliliter of ink). You might check for any Epson rebate offers, too.

The 3800 is my first digital printer since giving up my darkroom several years ago. So far I have been having a lot of fun with it. The prints are terrific, as is the convenience. I just came downstairs this evening to print a couple of images, and made a few 8x10's and a 12x12-inch print (on 13x19-inch paper), in about 30 minutes. I could never have done that in a wet darkroom.

I have no knowledge of the Canon printer.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: robertwatcher on November 19, 2007, 12:46:13 am: Quote
and from reports signficantly less problems with clogging. Main drawback would be lack of roll feed.

I have never had my 2400 that I have printed thousands of prints off of over the last 2 years clog once. It has worked flawlessly. The only clogging issues I ever had with Epson printers were with their single catridge printers - all of the new ones have separate cartridges that are very reliable. Also there is Roll paper capabilty with the 2400 - it just doesn't have the nice integrated paper cutter that came with my previous 2200.

Oh - and by the way - the prints from either the 2400 or 3800 are identical. They both use the same K3 inks.

Yes - there are savings with the larger ink cartidges. But I'm not so concerned about that as my print prices are ample to cover any cost of producing prints. The 2400 is compact and sits on my desk perfectly beside my computer monitor. It handles all of the paper I want to use including heavy weight watercolour papers and canvas. I absolutely love the 13"x19" size and use it over the more common 11x14 as an option for my clients. It is a great wall size print when matted using say a 24"x24" frame or even wide matted in a larger one. The 3800 and 4800 largest print size is of no real use to me as I don't like and so prefer not to offer a 16x20 print. My options are 13x19 and 20x30 or 24x36. And so if I was really wanting to have my ideal large format printer and save on inks, it would be the 7800 printer to get the 24 inch prints that I currently send out to have printed. But they don't come often and so I can't justify the expense, space and upkeep of the large printer. Yes it would look good - but I'd bet that I'd end up using my 2400 for 99% of my printing.

Nothing wrong with the 3800 and the price is fairly reasonable for that format a printer - but my preference is still with the 2400 for my own use and for the same incredible colour images, black and white images, watercolour and canvas print images that all of the other larger format Epson printers offer.

Also havnt read a good review of 2400,

There are many reviews talking about how great the 2400 is. Here's one I can quickly come up with from Moose Peterson:

http://moosepeterson.com/digitaldarkroom/e.../epson2400.html (http://moosepeterson.com/digitaldarkroom/equipment/epson2400.html)

And another from David Brooks at Shutterbug:

http://www.shutterbug.com/equipmentreviews...ters/1205epson/ (http://www.shutterbug.com/equipmentreviews/scanners_printers/1205epson/)
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: John Hollenberg on November 19, 2007, 09:06:14 am: Quote
I have never had my 2400 that I have printed thousands of prints off of over the last 2 years clog once. It has worked flawlessly. The only clogging issues I ever had with Epson printers were with their single catridge printers - all of the new ones have separate cartridges that are very reliable.
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Every Epson printer that I have had (2200, 2400, 9600) has had significant clogging problems. A couple of friends have had similar problems. I live in an area where humidity generally runs around 60%, so that isn't the problem. I understand the Epson 3800 is better.

--John
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: 01af on November 19, 2007, 10:48:29 am: Epson R2400:
* can print on sheet and roll paper
* can print only 13" wide
* cheaper to buy
* more expensive to keep running due to ink cost
* switch between matte black and photo black tedious and expensive

Epson 3800:
* can print on sheets only, no roll paper
* can print up to 17" wide, can still be lifted by a single person
* more expensive to buy but comes with 9 x 80 ml of ink
* cheaper to keep running due to lower ink cost
* switch between matte black and photo black quick and fairly cheap

An A3 size colour print uses approx. 2 ml of ink so a set of eight 13 ml cartridges will last through approx. 50 A3 prints (provided you're using up all colours evenly). Eight 80 ml cartridges are good for more than 300 A3 prints. So in order to get the same number of prints as with the 3800, with the R2400 you'd need to buy approx. five additional sets of ink cartridges, at a total cost of about $400 - $500 US. Don't forget to take the value of the ink sets coming with the printers into consideration!

-- Olaf
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: jpmulligan on November 19, 2007, 10:55:12 am: Quote
Every Epson printer that I have had (2200, 2400, 9600) has had significant clogging problems. A couple of friends have had similar problems. I live in an area where humidity generally runs around 60%, so that isn't the problem.
Try running an Epson in an area with 35-40% typical humitidy, you will be running head cleanings every other day. That's why I sold my 7600 and went to the Z3100, I got tired of dumping 40% of my ink trying to keep my printer unclogged. Since I switched to the HP last April, I have not had a single head clog.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Schewe on November 19, 2007, 01:10:45 pm: Quote
Since I switched to the HP last April, I have not had a single head clog.
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Odds are, you have...you just don't know it since clogged nozzles get mapped out and spare nozzles get picked up and used...and that's fine until you run out of unused nozzles–at which point you'll need to replace the heads.

And a comparison of the 7600 series with the original UltraChrome inks and the current the current series with K3 inks isn't accurate since the head was redesigned and the ink reformulated to help eliminate clops and the new 3800 head is even further advanced from even the 2400. The 3800 has better error diffusion halftoning and smaller dots. So, the 3800 is an upgrade from the 2400 even if the K3 inks are the same. And Andrew Rodney, who lives in Santa Fe where the relative humidity is about 9% on average has not had clogging problems with his 3800.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Sunesha on November 19, 2007, 07:02:55 pm: I am more than grateful for your valuable input from all off you. After reading reviews and information sites on the 3800 and iPF5000. I think roll paper will be a more cost effective solution for me. Thou now I am really thinking alot about the weight on the Canon printer. Sure indeed, beeing a weight training swedish viking it is alot to move around even for me

But I think its great their two valid options for me.

One thing I know about myself, is that I am like Marty. I just wished that had the money for this expensive hobbey or was good enough to maybe earn some money. Thou beeing ex-musican I learnt that money have killed my pleasure with music.

I think both printers seems very viable. So I will try to do some real scouting for some real-life experience with both. I will have do some budget estimations how much the cost will differ between them.

I am not after best possible print, but a good enough to please me. I think both printers will do great prints at least after reading reviews. I have no idea what printer my current print-shop uses, but they always want their prints in Adobe-RGB. So it is down to printing cost. The cheaper prints I can do the more prints I will do.

As always this like a hard choice for me as choicing beetween Nikon and Canon cameras.

Thanks alot again,
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: John Hollenberg on November 19, 2007, 07:42:21 pm: Quote
Thou now I am really thinking alot about the weight on the Canon printer. Sure indeed, beeing a weight training swedish viking it is alot to move around even for me
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154249\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, I think the Canon is almost 50 kg with the roll feed. I limit myself to 10 presses (over my head, elbows locked) each night

--John
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Ken Bennett on November 20, 2007, 08:35:35 am: Quote
I think both printers seems very viable. So I will try to do some real scouting for some real-life experience with both. I will have do some budget estimations how much the cost will differ between them.

My choice came down to the Canon and the Epson 3800, too. I chose the Epson for the smaller size and significantly lighter weight. (The cost of shipping the Canon here on a truck was a consideration, plus it requires two people to carry and set up.) I'm not sure my desk will even hold that much weight.

I do understand the appeal of roll feed. I am limited to cut paper sizes (or those I can cut myself), and there have been times when I wanted an odd size or longer paper length, etc. But the Epson has been great.

--Ken
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: digitaldog on November 20, 2007, 09:21:13 am: Quote
I would definitely go for the 3800 over the 2400.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I totally agree, I've had both (well I have the 3800, the 2400 is gone). Absolutely no comparison in terms of speed, print quality, cost effectiveness. Not that much larger foot print, built in Ethernet. This is an easy one, go 3800.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 20, 2007, 10:24:58 am: Quote
Odds are, you have...you just don't know it since clogged nozzles get mapped out and spare nozzles get picked up and used...and that's fine until you run out of unused nozzles–at which point you'll need to replace the heads.

................

And Andrew Rodney, who lives in Santa Fe where the relative humidity is about 9% on average has not had clogging problems with his 3800.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154161\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fortunately, HP heads are cheap enough to replace (50 bucks or so per channel, and they are said to last a while, though I have no idea of the details). Not so with Canon. Each head costs about 600 dollars, so if or when the two of those need to be replaced it's almost a new printer.

As for clogging, my experience relates to 4 Epson prigment printers living in a humidity range that falls within the Epson specs: 2000P, 4000, 4800 and now 3800. The 2000P, interestingly enough, just didn't clog. I didn't know there was a problem in those days. The 4000 clogged alot. The 4800 clogs less than the 4000 did, but still an unacceptably high proportion of ink is expended on maintenance and de-clogging (about 30%). So far the 3800 has not clogged once and has not even triggered a self-launched head-cleaning. But I have only been using it for the past month and only made 52 prints with it. (I'm using the 4800 for matte and the 3800 for gloss.) The interesting thing about the 3800 so far is that eventhough the machine can sit for a week with no activity, it still doesn't need a de-clog. I think this is real progress, though it is early days in the life experience of this particular unit. I shall be reporting on it more formally once enough time and operating experience is accumulated for a reliable assessment of this machine's performandce under my operating conditions. But so far I am really encouraged. And most important - the print quality is outstanding.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: _Luca_ on November 20, 2007, 06:56:28 pm: Quote
I totally agree, I've had both (well I have the 3800, the 2400 is gone). Absolutely no comparison in terms of speed, print quality, cost effectiveness. Not that much larger foot print, built in Ethernet. This is an easy one, go 3800.
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Is there really such a big difference in print quality??
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: a_krause on November 20, 2007, 07:12:45 pm: not to hijack the thread but quick question about 3800 vs 2400. i personally own the 2400 and would suggest it in a second. i print mostly [read: only] with moab entrada paper. i usually am printing portfolio spreads with it that are double sided. i have a theory that the since i have to load the paper in the rear sheet loader that there is a small margin of user error where the paper can print on an angle of say 1/16th. which isnt that much, but it can mess things up if its double sided... sooo with all of that said. does the 3800 have a front loader for the thicker water color papers? as i feel that would help with the allignment..
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 20, 2007, 07:19:09 pm: Quote
not to hijack the thread but quick question about 3800 vs 2400. i personally own the 2400 and would suggest it in a second. i print mostly [read: only] with moab entrada paper. i usually am printing portfolio spreads with it that are double sided. i have a theory that the since i have to load the paper in the rear sheet loader that there is a small margin of user error where the paper can print on an angle of say 1/16th. which isnt that much, but it can mess things up if its double sided... sooo with all of that said. does the 3800 have a front loader for the thicker water color papers? as i feel that would help with the allignment..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154529\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The 3800 has three feed options: an auto-feed on the top which can take paper at least 0.37mm thick (Innova F-type gloss which is pretty heavy stuff. One sheet at a time, no problem - I ran some the day before yesterday). There is no alignment issue whatsoever. However, it also has a back feed and a front feed. The front feed is for yet heavier papers and loads easily and precisely.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: madmanchan on November 21, 2007, 07:16:14 am: To add to what Mark said, the Front Feed on the 3800 is intended for REALLY thick paper: 1 mm to 1.5 mm. A typical "thick" watercolor paper is about 0.5 mm thick -- too thick for the Auto Sheet Feed, too thin for the Front Feed -- so this should be used with the Rear Feed instead.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: bheiser on November 21, 2007, 01:12:08 pm: Quote
Try running an Epson in an area with 35-40% typical humitidy, you will be running head cleanings every other day.

Hi,
Are you saying more or less humidity causes more frequent nozzle clogs? (I'm not sure if you're suggesting 35-40% humidity is high or low) .

I'm just wondering what to expect here in San Francisco where it is quite humid (e.g. right now it's sunny & clear and 60% humidity. This afternoon when the fog rolls in, it'll be much higher).
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 21, 2007, 01:56:05 pm: Quote
Hi,
Are you saying more or less humidity causes more frequent nozzle clogs? (I'm not sure if you're suggesting 35-40% humidity is high or low) .

I'm just wondering what to expect here in San Francisco where it is quite humid (e.g. right now it's sunny & clear and 60% humidity. This afternoon when the fog rolls in, it'll be much higher).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154721\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Epson recommends operating the machine within a humidity range of 35%~45%. The outdoor humidity and the humidity within the room where the printer sits can of course differ considerably. Heating and air-conditioning both dry the air. Nozzle clogs are not only a function of humidity. Other factors are also at work - age of the machine and total amount of material run through it, length of time between printing sessions, environmental contaminants, etc.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Ralph Eisenberg on November 26, 2007, 07:56:29 am: I have both. I would recommend the 3800. Superb printer. I've essentially encountered no difficulties in the 7 months i've had it. No clogs. The very fine 2400 required standard maintenance of the foam pads for the excess ink reservoir after 15 months that cost roughly 1/3 the price of the machine (to replace a few dollars in parts). On the 3800, the user can perform this operation in a minute at the cost of a maintenance cartridge. I would add that Eric Chan's excellent site devoted to the 3800 offers a wealth of useful information.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: fike on November 26, 2007, 08:53:36 am: I have been running a 2400 for 2 years or so. It is an excellent printer. Nozzzle clogs have been minimal, regardless of humidity. Image quality is excellent on matte and glossy papers. Ink costs are high compared to the 3800.

I would take issue with one claim that the 2400 is difficult to swap glossy and matte black cartridges. I just change the cartridge. Not a big deal compared to my 7880....whoa that is a pain.

Based upon ink costs alone, I would recommend the 3800, but based upon quality and ease of use, the 2400 is extremely close.

One compelling reason to go still go with Epson printers is that in the fine art community, there is a lot of experience using them. It is rare that you can't find profiles or significant experience with whatever problem you might have on an epson. The HP and Canon printers are building a reputation and knowledge-base among artists, but if you want to leverage the experience of other artists online, the epson will be far easier.

Finally, what paper do you want to use? Choices about your paper are integral to the decision about printer. Will you need to switch back and forth between matte and glossy papers? Do you like to use a variety of third party papers? Epson generally has the best support for a multitude of papers. Again, there is a lot of experience using every possible paper/ink combination on Epson. Canon and HP are a bit more insistent about using their papers.

Good luck, and remember, there aren't really any bad printers in the price range you are looking at. Whatever you get will make you happy.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 26, 2007, 09:06:24 am: Quote
...............
Canon and HP are a bit more insistent about using their papers.
..............
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156065\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This statement I wonder about. Don't you think that with any of these printers as long as you can get a good custom profile made for whatever paper type you chose the results should be fine?
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: fike on November 26, 2007, 10:01:00 am: Quote
This statement I wonder about. Don't you think that with any of these printers as long as you can get a good custom profile made for whatever paper type you chose the results should be fine?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156069\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think the issue is more in the Canon area where I still have concerns about the lack of print permanence data. The HP Z series seem to have good data available at Wilhelm imaging. Epson has a long history of strong data at Wilhelm. I just now looked at Wilhelm Imaging and was pleasantly surprised to see the Hahnemuhle papers tested on the Z3100. I now seem to recall that HP and Hahnemuhle have some sort of partnership agreement to market tested papers. That is a very positive step in my mind. Canon needs to do the same.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 26, 2007, 10:33:10 am: Quote
I think the issue is more in the Canon area where I still have concerns about the lack of print permanence data. The HP Z series seem to have good data available at Wilhelm imaging. Epson has a long history of strong data at Wilhelm. I just now looked at Wilhelm Imaging and was pleasantly surprised to see the Hahnemuhle papers tested on the Z3100. I now seem to recall that HP and Hahnemuhle have some sort of partnership agreement to market tested papers. That is a very positive step in my mind. Canon needs to do the same.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156083\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You have a point, but not clear what to make of it. The latest I just saw on Wilhelm's site reads as follows:

<<Canon imagePROGRAF iPF5000 17x24-inch,
12-Ink Printer and New Lucia Pigmented Inks
......................
WIR is currently testing the new printer, inks and media.

A review of preliminary test data indicates that prints made with the Lucia pigmented inks and select Canon photo and fine art papers will have WIR Display Permanence Ratings in excess of 100 years for color images and significantly beyond that for monochrome images.

Final test results will be posted when available. >>

That was probably from late February 2006 or so. It is now near the end of 2007. One can only speculate that either the final tests aren't ready for publication or they are and the client hasn't permitted publication; nonetheless, the general statement of preliminary outcomes quoted above provides some comfort - though not to the same degree as for those where the whole story is published in detail.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Sven W on November 26, 2007, 06:06:41 pm: Quote
I have been running a 2400 for 2 years or so. It is an excellent printer. Nozzzle clogs have been minimal, regardless of humidity. Image quality is excellent on matte and glossy papers. Ink costs are high compared to the 3800.

I would take issue with one claim that the 2400 is difficult to swap glossy and matte black cartridges. I just change the cartridge. Not a big deal compared to my 7880....whoa that is a pain.

Based upon ink costs alone, I would recommend the 3800, but based upon quality and ease of use, the 2400 is extremely close.
Talking about ink-costs; why not go for the 4880 at once?
Half the ink-costs vs 3800, Roll option, cutter, sheet-tray and more robuste.

One compelling reason to go still go with Epson printers is that in the fine art community, there is a lot of experience using them. It is rare that you can't find profiles or significant experience with whatever problem you might have on an epson. The HP and Canon printers are building a reputation and knowledge-base among artists, but if you want to leverage the experience of other artists online, the epson will be far easier.
I totally agree......

Finally, what paper do you want to use? Choices about your paper are integral to the decision about printer. Will you need to switch back and forth between matte and glossy papers? Do you like to use a variety of third party papers? Epson generally has the best support for a multitude of papers. Again, there is a lot of experience using every possible paper/ink combination on Epson. Canon and HP are a bit more insistent about using their papers.
If you don't have a spectro and make your own profiles.

Good luck, and remember, there aren't really any bad printers in the price range you are looking at. Whatever you get will make you happy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156065\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: John Hollenberg on November 26, 2007, 06:43:20 pm: Canon has published the results (including Wilhelm's results) here:

http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/space/showi...ce_April_07.pdf (http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/LUCIA_Ink_Resistance_April_07.pdf)

Apparently, they didn't want to pay the stiff prices Wilhelm would charge to publish officially on his site. At least, that is the line we are hearing. Seems reasonable to me, but don't know if it is true or not. Canon's own testing results are also included in this document.

--John
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: fike on November 26, 2007, 06:52:56 pm: Quote
Canon has published the results (including Wilhelm's results) here:

http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/space/showi...ce_April_07.pdf (http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/LUCIA_Ink_Resistance_April_07.pdf)

Apparently, they didn't want to pay the stiff prices Wilhelm would charge to publish officially on his site. At least, that is the line we are hearing. Seems reasonable to me, but don't know if it is true or not. Canon's own testing results are also included in this document.

--John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Results look adequate, if unimpressive. The conspiracy theorist in me says the whole thing sounds fishy.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: digitaldog on November 26, 2007, 06:59:25 pm: Quote
Results look adequate, if unimpressive. The conspiracy theorist in me says the whole thing sounds fishy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156249\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I' curious, what looks fishy?

John, I haven't had much experience with the Canon papers, they sent me two kinds; Premium Bright Photo Satin and Premium Matt. The Bright Photo is absolutely awful and ugly IMHO. I was far happier using Epson Luster. I wonder how that would affect longevity.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: John Hollenberg on November 26, 2007, 07:02:56 pm: Quote
John, I haven't had much experience with the Canon papers, they sent me two kinds; Premium Bright Photo Satin and Premium Matt. The Bright Photo is absolutely awful and ugly IMHO. I was far happier using Epson Luster. I wonder how that would affect longevity.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156252\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Agreed. I use Epson Premium Luster, which had the largest gamut on the iPF5000 of any paper tested (until Harman FB Al Gloss came along). Hopefully the longevity is similar.

--John
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: fike on November 26, 2007, 09:38:27 pm: Quote
I' curious, what looks fishy?

John, I haven't had much experience with the Canon papers, they sent me two kinds; Premium Bright Photo Satin and Premium Matt. The Bright Photo is absolutely awful and ugly IMHO. I was far happier using Epson Luster. I wonder how that would affect longevity.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156252\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't generally trust business or industry to provide the whole and unvarnished truth. They may not exactly lie, but they may also not be entirely forthcoming. That is why public companies need independent financial audits. That is why I like an independent firm like Wilhelm to certify results. If they are unwilling to certify the results, then I am suspicious about what is being witheld from Canon's results.

It may be that I am being paranoid, but epson has a long history of certifying results. HP is obviously also committed to certifying their results with Wilhelm. What is so special about Canon that they don't need to have the same independent validation.

I own a canon camera. I love it. But until they get their print longevity story in order it will remain an obstacle to me buying their printers. Print longevity is very important to me.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Sunesha on November 27, 2007, 03:56:14 am: I did some test prints with Epson 3800 at my local camera store. It seems like Epson got better ground in my home city. Which makes it a big plus. But it was amazing how good the prints was. Much better the ones I pay alot from the printshop.

The only thing that bothers me a bit is the lack off rollpaper.

I guess when it is time I have to do some research in paper.

Thanks all for this thread. I really gotten more help than I needed . It has helped to do my research.

I guess as someone said there arnt really any bad choice in this price range. It is just different choices.

I read that paper profiles for Epson is ok. As I understood after watching camera to print it very expensive to profile by yourself.

Is there any cheapo way to profile prints?

I saw that some people offer you to profile, but isnt that just for one paper profile?
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on November 27, 2007, 10:37:23 am: Quote
I read that paper profiles for Epson is ok. As I understood after watching camera to print it very expensive to profile by yourself.

Is there any cheapo way to profile prints?

I saw that some people offer you to profile, but isnt that just for one paper profile?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=156340\")
If you manage to narrow your paper choices down to one or two or just a few, then having profiles made for them is much less expensive than either buying (and learning to use) the equipment + software needed to profile it yourself or buying an expensive RIP (such as ImagePrint) which has generally good profiles for many papers.

After many futile attempts to profile a few papers for my 2200 using scanner-based software, I finally shelled out big for ImagePrint, which does fine. But when I upgrade to a 3800 (some time soon now) I intend to buy a few custom profiles from Andrew Rodney ([a href=\"http://www.digitaldog.net]digitaldog[/url]).

"Cheapo ways" turned out to be very expensive for me.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 27, 2007, 11:05:34 am: Eric,

I agree with this advice. I've come to several tentative conclusions about all this after trying a number of different papers, profiles and approaches:

(1) For Epson papers their own profiles with the 4800 and 3800 printers are really very, very good. I have not been able to improve upon them with custom profiles, which speaks for the consistency of Epson's manufacturing processes.

(2) For other papers, one has the choice of using other profiles supplied by the paper manufacturers or distributors where such exist (for example free profiles for Innova papers are available on their website and the one I tested is pretty good), or going to a custom provider such as Andrew Rodney, Cathy's, Giorgio Trucco, to name a few in the USA, and then in Europe - Christophe Metairie in Bayonne, France.

(3) After experimenting with a number of papers to see what you like best, it's good to settle on two or three and really learn to use them well via softproofing.

Mark
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Sven W on November 27, 2007, 05:02:28 pm: (2) For other papers, one has the choice of using other profiles supplied by the paper manufacturers or distributors where such exist (for example free profiles for Innova papers are available on their website and the one I tested is pretty good), or going to a custom provider such as Andrew Rodney, Cathy's, Giorgio Trucco, to name a few in the USA, and then in Europe - Christophe Metairie in Bayonne, France.

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156432\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

Sunesha/Daniel
Of course we also make good printerprofiles in Sweden......
Eyeone + ProfileMaker + Atkinson chart = All you need.

Contact me offline or have look at my site (sorry only in swedish)
www.profiler.nu

/Sven
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: fike on November 27, 2007, 08:34:01 pm: I just got a custom profile from Cathy for $35. It looks good. I wouldn't consider getting profiles as an obstacle, especially with the 3800. In the past I have always had good luck with profiles from the paper provider. In this case, the Epson 7880 profiles from Entrada were very bad. My ne ones are much better.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: bigbrotherbob33 on November 28, 2007, 05:15:40 pm: Quote
I just got a custom profile from Cathy for $35. It looks good. I wouldn't consider getting profiles as an obstacle, especially with the 3800. In the past I have always had good luck with profiles from the paper provider. In this case, the Epson 7880 profiles from Entrada were very bad. My ne ones are much better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156548\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I just saw that Booksmart Studio (the guys with the printable metal) has as sale on their custom profiles for $25.00 down from $40. I have been using them for almost a year now and I get better profiles from that service than from my old eye one photo. Highly recommended for profiles, and I get my paper from them too. Hope this helps, and back to the original question: go with the 3800 (or better yet wait until the next version comes out, they are due for a new one).
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Sunesha on November 28, 2007, 06:02:39 pm: I will have to try alot, thats only way off learning I guess. But theory and knowledge saves you mistakes. Thanks again

Quote
(
Sunesha/Daniel
Of course we also make good printerprofiles in Sweden......
Eyeone + ProfileMaker + Atkinson chart = All you need.

Contact me offline or have look at my site (sorry only in swedish)
www.profiler.nu

/Sven
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156511\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sven,

I think I will contact you when I get the printer. Always nice to support swedish business.

Cheers,
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Wayne Fox on November 29, 2007, 07:07:49 pm: Quote
I don't generally trust business or industry to provide the whole and unvarnished truth. They may not exactly lie, but they may also not be entirely forthcoming. That is why public companies need independent financial audits. That is why I like an independent firm like Wilhelm to certify results. If they are unwilling to certify the results, then I am suspicious about what is being witheld from Canon's results.

It may be that I am being paranoid, but epson has a long history of certifying results. HP is obviously also committed to certifying their results with Wilhelm. What is so special about Canon that they don't need to have the same independent validation.

I own a canon camera. I love it. But until they get their print longevity story in order it will remain an obstacle to me buying their printers. Print longevity is very important to me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156296\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I had a long conversation with 3 people from Canon ... I can't say names, but this was at a national level, and included his boss from Japan.

I have even forwarded this conversation on to him, because it keeps coming up. You're right, it does look "fishy" that after this long, Wilhelm hasn't published their results.

The problem with Wilhelm is that while they are "independent" in one way, they are very dependent in another ... they need these companies to pay them pretty large amounts of money to stay in business. This situation isn't much better, and it is possible they have tried to leverage themselves to the point of holding companies hostage. According to my conversation, this is exactly where Canon is with Wilhelm ...

The simple fact is Canon's internal testing is more extensive than Wilhelm's, at this point even Wilhelm has admitted that worse case scenario they are at 95 years (and still going ... though I'm sure it's concluded by now).

My real problem with Wilhelm is they tend to focus only on the inks, yet the paper bases are a huge variable in how they react to ink.

The problem with longevity testing is it doesn't account for real world scenarios. I've also felt for some time that fading really isn't the challenge of longevity. Most prints will die from physical damage (lost, trashed, burned, spilled ... you name it) far before they ever have a chance to fade.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: fike on November 29, 2007, 07:29:21 pm: Quote
I had a long conversation with 3 people from Canon ... I can't say names, but this was at a national level, and included his boss from Japan.

I have even forwarded this conversation on to him, because it keeps coming up. You're right, it does look "fishy" that after this long, Wilhelm hasn't published their results.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157103\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is good to hear that canon is listening. It is too late for me, I just got an epson 7880, but maybe my next generation printer in five years. Perhaps they can get it straightened out for the 5100. It appears that if they learn from the missteps they made on the 5000, they really could have a competetive printer range for the fine art photographer.

You mentioned images being lost or destroyed somehow as another component of the longevity story. I couldn't agree more. That is why I never liked the paper/ink solutions that weren't waterproof (dye with swellable polymer paper).

I was at the Corcoran Gallery of Art in Washington DC a few weeks ago looking at Annie Leibovitz and Ansel Adams shows. It was interesting that one of Ansel's most famous shots was printed in the 30's as a whole negative. When he printed it again, after mastering his printing craft in the 50's and 60's, the negative had to be trimmed because he lost a corner of the negative in a darkroom fire. There are so many hazards for maintaining a photographic record.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 29, 2007, 07:31:00 pm: Quote
I had a long conversation with 3 people from Canon ... I can't say names, but this was at a national level, and included his boss from Japan.

I have even forwarded this conversation on to him, because it keeps coming up. You're right, it does look "fishy" that after this long, Wilhelm hasn't published their results.

The problem with Wilhelm is that while they are "independent" in one way, they are very dependent in another ... they need these companies to pay them pretty large amounts of money to stay in business. This situation isn't much better, and it is possible they have tried to leverage themselves to the point of holding companies hostage. According to my conversation, this is exactly where Canon is with Wilhelm ...

The simple fact is Canon's internal testing is more extensive than Wilhelm's, at this point even Wilhelm has admitted that worse case scenario they are at 95 years (and still going ... though I'm sure it's concluded by now).

My real problem with Wilhelm is they tend to focus only on the inks, yet the paper bases are a huge variable in how they react to ink.

The problem with longevity testing is it doesn't account for real world scenarios. I've also felt for some time that fading really isn't the challenge of longevity. Most prints will die from physical damage (lost, trashed, burned, spilled ... you name it) far before they ever have a chance to fade.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157103\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd be interested to know what inside information you have about Wilhelm's business to know that he has any capacity whatsoever to hold any of these companies "hostage" - hostage to what? They are his clients. They are paying for the tests and the data. Presumably they control what he is allowed to publish. Have you ever seen any of those contracts between Wilhelm and his clients to know who really controls what (I haven't, but I think I understand the basic principles at play here), or is this hostage business speculation on your part?

I think it would also be useful if you could tell us something about your background in the science of longevity testing and specifically what you know about Canon's methods compared with Wilhelm's methods to know that Canon's testing is more extensive than Wilhelm's, or are you just repeating back here what a few folks at Canon told you? I can understand if the detailed data wasn't allowed into the publid domain because, for example, there may be unresolved disagreements between Canon and Wilhelm about certain results, but that is a different matter and should be seen as a possibility that can arise in the normal course of implementing a contract.

Have you carefully read any of Wilhelm's reports on his website? You will see he not only focuses on the inks, but also on the papers. His tests include for yellowing, and they test for failure of the substrata. He has written extensively about both paper and ink. I don't understand how you could believe a scientist of that calibre and experience would not understand the importance of both, because if you and I know they work together, so does he - in spades.

Turning to your statement about accounting for "real world scenarios" - I don't know what that means, but whatever it means, it's irrelevant. Most of these tests are "accelerated light fading" tests. In order to get results out within our living lifetimes to be able to advise the manufacturers and their clients about the expected longevity of the materials, they can't pin the prints on fridge doors, leave them there for a 100 years and tell our grandchildren whether the prints lasted. I want to know within my life-time - in fact by the time the product hits the market. So acceleration is substituted for time, and therefore it cannot be "real-world" from the get-go, because in the real world you don't hang your prints in accelerated conditions. There is a problem with this methodology called "reciprocity failure", in the sense that acceleration does not necessarily correlate one-for-one with longevity, but Wilhelm is well aware of that issue too and his written about it.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Schewe on November 29, 2007, 08:05:52 pm: Quote
I'd be interested to know what inside information you have about Wilhelm's business to know that he has any capacity whatsoever to hold any of these companies "hostage" - hostage to what? They are his clients.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll tell you EXACTLY how Canon feels like a "hostage" when dealing with Henry...Henry's terms are completely upfront and part of it–the test results will be the test results–period. And, Henry's timetable for testing can't be hurried and he doesn't negotiate his fees and terms...you either pay, or he doesn't do the work. That's why Canon feels like they are being held "hostage" because he won't play games...(and if somebody from Canon says it's a "lot of money" he's full of horse pucky, Canon will drop huge sums of money on some of the most STUPID things, if they feel like it and they've got money to burn)

Canon may be feeling the heat because both Epson and HP have seen the value of Henry's work and have agreed to have Henry work on his terms. So, two out of the big three can be compared, apples to apples.

I often see people do all sort of rationalizations about why Henry's work is, or isn't valid and important. But he's the best game going for independent testing and reporting. There are others, like RIT's Permanence Institute, but their policies are designed ONLY for the commissioning company and the results are selectively released on by the company (the company decides what is and isn't made public and how).

And, I would be hard pressed to believe second and third hand accounts...the Canon guys may have believed what they said but more likely their minds have been made up by powers further up the food chain that would NEVER talk to somebody outside of the company. Canon Japan holds security very, very tight. Canon marketing companies in the US and Europe not so much, but then they rarely actually "know" anything.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 29, 2007, 08:41:08 pm: Quote
I'll tell you EXACTLY how Canon feels like a "hostage" when dealing with Henry...Henry's terms are completely upfront and part of it–the test results will be the test results–period. And, Henry's timetable for testing can't be hurried and he doesn't negotiate his fees and terms...you either pay, or he doesn't do the work. That's why Canon feels like they are being held "hostage" because he won't play games

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157121\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That sounds more like it.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Sunesha on December 09, 2007, 02:39:55 pm: Well just a small update:

I am picking up a used R2400 from a friend tomorrow. Which just cost me about 450 dollars.

I felt alot I really wanted to have the 3800, but my economy would sink to zero. So I prioritize a scotland trip this summer instead.

At least I can use roll paper. Hopefully I will think 13X17 is big enough. A small plus thou was that the R2400 could print out postcard size easy. I always give my grandmother this size. As she think others are too big.

I reviewed my printing habits and see that I print big like 3-5 times a month. Will be able to do it alot more often. I reviewing other options for real big prints, as I think I cant afford to buy the equipment to do it myself.

Anyway I am must grateful for all information. Tomorrow I am going paper testing and hunting.

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: alain on December 12, 2007, 02:41:36 am: Quote
Epson R2400:
* can print on sheet and roll paper
* can print only 13" wide
* cheaper to buy
* more expensive to keep running due to ink cost
* switch between matte black and photo black tedious and expensive

Epson 3800:
* can print on sheets only, no roll paper
* can print up to 17" wide, can still be lifted by a single person
* more expensive to buy but comes with 9 x 80 ml of ink
* cheaper to keep running due to lower ink cost
* switch between matte black and photo black quick and fairly cheap

An A3 size colour print uses approx. 2 ml of ink so a set of eight 13 ml cartridges will last through approx. 50 A3 prints (provided you're using up all colours evenly). Eight 80 ml cartridges are good for more than 300 A3 prints. So in order to get the same number of prints as with the 3800, with the R2400 you'd need to buy approx. five additional sets of ink cartridges, at a total cost of about $400 - $500 US. Don't forget to take the value of the ink sets coming with the printers into consideration!

-- Olaf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154116\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Is the following assumption correct or am I missing something?

If the 3800 prints 300 A3's with one cartridge set and considering the lifespan of the cartridges inside the printer (6 months or more?), the 3800 could need a reasonable printvolume to make it economical. Even considering a 2 year lifetime (which seems quite much) and the assumption that the lowest used inkt is used at half the average rate, the 3800 "needs" 300 A3's a year.

Maybe the cleaning cycles will higher the inkt usage "enough" to change the nr's, any experience?

Alain

Alain
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on December 12, 2007, 03:48:20 am: Quote
Canon may be feeling the heat because both Epson and HP have seen the value of Henry's work and have agreed to have Henry work on his terms. So, two out of the big three can be compared, apples to apples.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=157121\")

Image Engineering in Germany does independent fade tests right now and the first results have been published in the German magazines ColorFoto and Fine Art Printing.
Based on Iso Standards still in development but not much different to what Wilhelm uses and including ozone test results. It correlates well to Wilhelm's findings where Wilhelm published the results but there are no ozone results for Epson K3 (still in test :-) and no Canon data in general. In the German test Canon however occupies third place after Epson and HP is definitely up front.

I had some scans of the test result pages but can't put that on the web. This is new: Some results are published on Image Engineering's pages. A bit cryptic in this form, realize that RC papers have very good ozone resistance with almost all manufacturers but that RC papers themselves are estimated to have a lifetime of 70 years at most. Ozone fading is a problem for non RC papers that are not framed behind glass or not protected by a good varnish, it can give a shorter lifetime than the light fading alone creates. Years are shorter in the German testing but there are no real opposite results to Wilhelm's but with the Fuji Crystaljet and Cibachrome.

[a href=\"http://digitalkamera.image-engineering.de/]http://digitalkamera.image-engineering.de/[/url]

Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: John R Smith on December 12, 2007, 04:00:32 am: Canon have traditionally had a following for their printers in the areas where print life was not a big concern - fashion, glamour, product and layout proofing. The printers were quick, well profiled, and punchy. Now they have a bit of catching-up to do if they want break into the world of fine-art printing.

John
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 12, 2007, 08:51:19 am: Quote
Is the following assumption correct or am I missing something?

If the 3800 prints 300 A3's with one cartridge set and considering the lifespan of the cartridges inside the printer (6 months or more?), the 3800 could need a reasonable printvolume to make it economical. Even considering a 2 year lifetime (which seems quite much) and the assumption that the lowest used inkt is used at half the average rate, the 3800 "needs" 300 A3's a year.

Maybe the cleaning cycles will higher the inkt usage "enough" to change the nr's, any experience?

Alain

Alain
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160033\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Let's do some of the arithmetic: All my numbers come from the B&H website with rebates and specials included. The 2400 costs 670 dollars, and the 3800 1200 dollars, a difference of 530 dollars cheaper for the 2400.

The 3800 comes with 640 ml of ink, the 2400 comes with 104 ml of ink. An 8 ink cartridge set for the 2400 costs 99 dollars for 104 ml of ink, or $1.05 per ml. Eight cartridges for the 3800 cost 440 dollars for 640 ml or 69 cents per ml or 34% less per ml.

Both printers comes with one set of eight inks. The difference in the amount of supplied ink in the printer price is 536 ml. If you bought a 2400 printer and then had to self supply that 532 ml differnece at $1.05/ml, you would be paying a supplement of 562 dollars, which is more than the price difference between the printers. They probably use different amounts of ink for initial charging (I don't know because I don't own a 2400 and I bought my 3800 already charged - but the ink usage looked very low). So the bottom line is that the machines alone (without any ink) cost about the same; but 3800 embeds newer and improved printhead technology, it is a professional level printer supported by Epson ProGraphics, and that most likely means it was individually linearized before it left the factory.

Once you buy a 3800, from then onward you pay 69 cents per ml of ink instead of 1.05 with the 2400. Both the Epson 3800 and the 4800 consume about 0.65 ml of ink for a 6*9 inch image placed on an 8.5*11 inch sheet (one inch border all around). I don't know the specific consumption of a 2400, but it is probably similar. Ink used for maintenance can be high on a 4800; I don't know what it is for either the 2400 or 3800 yet - this takes many months of operational experience to build a reliable dataset, and I haven't owned my 3800 long enough. Apart from that element of uncertainty, the 3800 MUST be a much cheaper printing option unless you really think you will be printing so low a volume that the inks will expire to the point of becoming unusable. I've never had that happen in 8 years of printing with Epson professional printers. While the official life of an open cartridge is 6 months, I've heard - reliably - that this is intended to be a very "safe" and "conservative" estimate.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 12, 2007, 09:05:02 am: Quote
Image Engineering in Germany does independent fade tests right now and the first results have been published in the German magazines ColorFoto and Fine Art Printing.
Based on Iso Standards still in development but not much different to what Wilhelm uses and including ozone test results. It correlates well to Wilhelm's findings where Wilhelm published the results but there are no ozone results for Epson K3 (still in test :-) and no Canon data in general. In the German test Canon however occupies third place after Epson and HP is definitely up front.

I had some scans of the test result pages but can't put that on the web. This is new: Some results are published on Image Engineering's pages. A bit cryptic in this form, realize that RC papers have very good ozone resistance with almost all manufacturers but that RC papers themselves are estimated to have a lifetime of 70 years at most. Ozone fading is a problem for non RC papers that are not framed behind glass or not protected by a good varnish, it can give a shorter lifetime than the light fading alone creates. Years are shorter in the German testing but there are no real opposite results to Wilhelm's but with the Fuji Crystaljet and Cibachrome.

http://digitalkamera.image-engineering.de/ (http://digitalkamera.image-engineering.de/)
Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160041\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ernst, as you know this can't be discussed without reference to the display/storage conditions. For Epson Premium Luster (RC) in a 3800 Wilhelm shows a huge range from about 70 years under some display conditions to over 200 years in albums/dark storage.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: digitaldog on December 12, 2007, 09:14:57 am: Quote
Let's do some of the arithmetic:

Don't forget the network card that comes with the 3800, not even available on the 2400.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on December 12, 2007, 09:31:07 am: Quote
Ernst, as you know this can't be discussed without reference to the display/storage conditions. For Epson Premium Luster (RC) in a 3800 Wilhelm shows a huge range from about 70 years under some display conditions to over 200 years in albums/dark storage.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=160077\")

The test conditions are described in the article + some other papers on the site. Plus the relation to normal households, museum lighting conditions, etc.

The light fade resistance numbers should be compared with the bare bulb test results of Wilhelm.

There's another choice in light spectrum including more UV. The humidity is 50% which is/was according to the proposed ISO standard but Wilhelm uses 60% humidity.

It's a bit between Xenon chamber testing and what Wilhelm does, faster than Wilhelm but without the usual Blue Wool reference of Xenon chamber testing.

So there are differences in testing and the lifetime in years will not match but nevertheless there's correlation in the numbers which makes both test methods more valid. The extra ozone fade information that didn't appear on Wilhelm's site is welcome too I think.

I do hope the fiber/baryta types are tested soon to see their numbers compared to RC paper. Especially on ozone.

Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on December 12, 2007, 01:14:27 pm: Quote
..., the 3800 MUST be a much cheaper printing option unless you really think you will be printing so low a volume that the inks will expire to the point of becoming unusable. I've never had that happen in 8 years of printing with Epson professional printers. While the official life of an open cartridge is 6 months, I've heard - reliably - that this is intended to be a very "safe" and "conservative" estimate.
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I agree.

On my Epson 2200 I have used Epson inks that were up to three years past their expiration date with no problem whatever. I expect the same is true for the 3800. When my 2200 dies, I will definitely go for a 38xx over a 24xx.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Schewe on December 12, 2007, 01:30:46 pm: Quote
On my Epson 2200 I have used Epson inks that were up to three years past their expiration date with no problem whatever.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

One thing you should do, if you haven't printed in a while, is to take out the ink carts and do a gentle agitation to re-mix the pigments in the inks. Most people follow the directions for agitating when they first install the carts but then kinda forget that over time (even as short as a month) the pigments tend to settle out of solution.

I have a lot of printers (currently a 4800, 7800, 9800 as well as a 3800 which gets the most use) and the first thing I do after not using a printer for a while is take out the carts, rock them gently back and forth and re-insert them. Then I do an auto-nozzle check to confirm the nozzles are clear and then do an auto-alignment on the heads to make sure the alignment is good (I have printers on rolling stands and they get moved around a lot).

The only caution I would make is when BUYING ink carts, not to accept short dated (or out of date) carts...unless the retailer offers a substantial discount and you think you'll run through the ink in a relatively short period of time.

But agitating the ink is a good way of making sure you cut down on nozzle clogs.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: GregW on December 12, 2007, 02:21:12 pm: I'm often traveling so the 3800 can go a few weeks without use. I've now added this to my protocol.

Thanks a lot for the tip.

FWIW, I'm very happy with the 3800. Despite my erratic usage pattern I've not had a nozzle clog. The printer lives at a constant 55 degrees C of humidity.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: alain on December 15, 2007, 07:45:16 am: Quote
I agree.

On my Epson 2200 I have used Epson inks that were up to three years past their expiration date with no problem whatever. I expect the same is true for the 3800. When my 2200 dies, I will definitely go for a 38xx over a 24xx.
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Where those inks inside the printer for three years or just on a shelf within there packaging. This could be a big difference.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on December 15, 2007, 03:19:09 pm: Quote
Where those inks inside the printer for three years or just on a shelf within there packaging. This could be a big difference.
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They were sealed in the original packaging. I had bought some old stock on which the expiration dates were hard to read in the store.

I do swap MK and PK inks about once every four months or so (I rarely use the PK), keeping the open cartridge in a small ziplock bag until needed. I do shake it before reinserting, but I haven't had a problem. I would guess that the longest I have used an opened-and-then-stored cartridge is perhaps a year past the official expiration date, and these have worked fine for me. It's only the gloss ink (PK) that gets opened and then stored for a long time.

If you think you are likely not to be printing for a fairly extended period, it is probably a good idea to remove all the cartridges and store them (upright) in small ziplock bags, shaking them again before installing them again the next time you print. And do a nozzle check on plain paper.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: picnic on December 15, 2007, 05:08:08 pm: Quote
One thing you should do, if you haven't printed in a while, is to take out the ink carts and do a gentle agitation to re-mix the pigments in the inks. Most people follow the directions for agitating when they first install the carts but then kinda forget that over time (even as short as a month) the pigments tend to settle out of solution.

I have a lot of printers (currently a 4800, 7800, 9800 as well as a 3800 which gets the most use) and the first thing I do after not using a printer for a while is take out the carts, rock them gently back and forth and re-insert them. Then I do an auto-nozzle check to confirm the nozzles are clear and then do an auto-alignment on the heads to make sure the alignment is good (I have printers on rolling stands and they get moved around a lot).

The only caution I would make is when BUYING ink carts, not to accept short dated (or out of date) carts...unless the retailer offers a substantial discount and you think you'll run through the ink in a relatively short period of time.

But agitating the ink is a good way of making sure you cut down on nozzle clogs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160146\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for reminding me. I print in spurts--and over this past year--no clogs at all (I run a nozzle check each time I print and have been thrilled with the total lack of clogs as opposed to my last several Epsons). However--I have NOT agitated them and I'll do so now. I'm about out of almost all blacks but not colors (and though I have extra blacks on hand, I didn't bother to buy any colors yet--and Atlex is quick).

I moved from a 2200 last Dec. and have printed 16" wide a lot since then so the 3800 has been a good buy for me--besides even the difference in ink prices. I haven't regretted buying the 3800 even once since then.

Diane
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Neil Currie on December 17, 2007, 11:18:06 pm: The prices of the two printers are very close after factoring in the $400+ of ink that comes with the 3800 as well as the current rebate. The ink in the 3800 also seems to go further per ml.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 17, 2007, 11:22:50 pm: Quote
The prices of the two printers are very close after factoring in the $400+ of ink that comes with the 3800 as well as the current rebate. The ink in the 3800 also seems to go further per ml.
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Yes, please see details in post #50 above. I'm not sure whether the 3800 uses less ink per sqmm of coverage, but it may. The key thing though is the economies of buying future ink cartridges for the 3800 as explained in the last paragraph of post #50.
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: billg71 on December 18, 2007, 11:41:16 pm: Quote
I am more than grateful for your valuable input from all off you. After reading reviews and information sites on the 3800 and iPF5000. I think roll paper will be a more cost effective solution for me.
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Sunesha,

I'd suggest you check out the per-print cost of roll paper vs. sheet paper. I recently did and found out that sheets were less costly than roll, at least up to the 13" width my 2200 could accommodate.

I've recently added a 4800 and I've found there's a very distinct difference in the consumer-grade Epsons and the pro models. If you don't need the roll feeder for panoramas, I'd recommend the 3800. I've been very happy with my 2200 but it's definitely not the printer the 4800 is. I can't speak for the 2400 since I don't have one, but there's a world of difference in the 2200 v. the 4800 in print quality, speed and versatility.

I use the 2200 with MK inks for rag papers and I'm looking forward to upgrading to a 3800. Since rag papers aren't available on rolls, the lack of a roll feeder isn't a consideration. And the 17" width capability of the 3800 would be a definite bonus.

I've found that, all things considered, spending the money for pro-quality tools has been money well spent. I've been making my living with tools of one sort or the other for over 30 years now and have tried to economize when I could, only to find that I'd have been better off spending the extra money up front. Pro tools may cost a little more initially, but they do what you want when you want with no accommodations and/or fiddling around required on your part.

Of course, a lot of this depends on what you intend to do with the printer. If you typically print 10 prints a month, the 2400 is a no-brainer. If you print 10 prints a day, I'd recommend the 3800, unless you have a specific need for the roll feeder. In that case, I'd think you'd be better off with the 4800 or 4880.

As in a lot of questions on photo gear, it all boils down to "It Depends". What your requirements are, how often you'll use the printer, how long you're willing to wait for a print, how much you're comfortable with paying for ink on a per/print basis,these are things you have to decide for yourself. Then you can evaluate what matters to you and what value you place on the different capabilities of the printers available in your chosen price range.

I'm sorry I can't say" Buy this one" but there are just too many personal requirements involved.

At the least, I hope this helps in some small part in making your decision,

Bill
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: Sunesha on December 19, 2007, 02:16:17 pm: Quote
Sunesha,

I'd suggest you check out the per-print cost of roll paper vs. sheet paper. I recently did and found out that sheets were less costly than roll, at least up to the 13" width my 2200 could accommodate.

I've recently added a 4800 and I've found there's a very distinct difference in the consumer-grade Epsons and the pro models. If you don't need the roll feeder for panoramas, I'd recommend the 3800. I've been very happy with my 2200 but it's definitely not the printer the 4800 is. I can't speak for the 2400 since I don't have one, but there's a world of difference in the 2200 v. the 4800 in print quality, speed and versatility.

I use the 2200 with MK inks for rag papers and I'm looking forward to upgrading to a 3800. Since rag papers aren't available on rolls, the lack of a roll feeder isn't a consideration. And the 17" width capability of the 3800 would be a definite bonus.

I've found that, all things considered, spending the money for pro-quality tools has been money well spent. I've been making my living with tools of one sort or the other for over 30 years now and have tried to economize when I could, only to find that I'd have been better off spending the extra money up front. Pro tools may cost a little more initially, but they do what you want when you want with no accommodations and/or fiddling around required on your part.

Of course, a lot of this depends on what you intend to do with the printer. If you typically print 10 prints a month, the 2400 is a no-brainer. If you print 10 prints a day, I'd recommend the 3800, unless you have a specific need for the roll feeder. In that case, I'd think you'd be better off with the 4800 or 4880.

As in a lot of questions on photo gear, it all boils down to "It Depends". What your requirements are, how often you'll use the printer, how long you're willing to wait for a print, how much you're comfortable with paying for ink on a per/print basis,these are things you have to decide for yourself. Then you can evaluate what matters to you and what value you place on the different capabilities of the printers available in your chosen price range.

I'm sorry I can't say" Buy this one" but there are just too many personal requirements involved.

At the least, I hope this helps in some small part in making your decision,

Bill
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Bill,

Thanks. I already have used R2400 on the desk. So you re-inforcing me that didnt make economic catastrophe made me happy

Your information was most welcome. It is very hard to calculate the cost off printings I found out.

After leaving the first weeks off printing frenzy. I think I stop around 10 big 13inch prints and around 10 smaller A4 prints per month. I was in luck that I got the printer from a big comericial photo studio here in my local town that had pro-made profiles for around 20 papers. So I got alot off profiles which has worked just great.

I still hunting for a good 13inch roll paper for some off my panorama shoots, which is maybe one of twenty off my landscape shoots.

I think I move to bigger printer in a couple off years. But for now I happy with the smaller 2400. I only have test prints from 3800 and think 2400 is the same in print quality to my eyes.

Cheers,
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: klaud on December 19, 2007, 04:50:41 pm: Quote
Good evening,

My name is Daniel, a photo enthusiast not a pro. I been using a local printshop for doing my prints. Which has become a quite expensive and unpredictable experience. My main software for printing is Adobe Lightroom with Photoshop CS2(havnt afford the upgrade yet).

The thing that puzzle my choices is print cost. I understood after I bought "Camera to print", which was excellent instruction video to start understand photo printing. The gear showcased there was execellent.

The price difference between the 2400 and 3800 is quite large. Also when to account the paper cost printing A2 size paper it was a bit higher. But on the other hand I am appealed to the bigger prints and the cartridges seems to hold more ink. But I have hard time to count the cost diffrence?

Also havnt read a good review of 2400, had read couple off 3800. Most the reviews read about 2400 hasnt really got me understanding what the diffrence would be beetween this two.

Anyone can explain how you make a cost estimation?

I think I would print around 20-30 A3 prints a month. I have calibrated screen and understand that part of printing. But as landscape, architecture photo enthusiast. I am not really sure what I am gonna be pleased with. If money wasnt a issue I would go for 24 inch printer in a heartbeat.

Are there any option in the price range of 2400 and 3800 worth looking at also?

As framing photos do you think a 13 inch printer makes a large enough print for a landscape with forest detail? (has mostly done 24-30inch(something, not used to the inch system) )

Got good source for very cheap frames(Ikea) ;-) and love giving away prints to friends, often photos of landscapes or buildings that has a special meaning for them. Sorry for my lengthy post, but having problems to decide for myself and looking for people to push me to any direction.

CHeers,
Daniel
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Hi Daniel

Bear in mind that if you want to print really large you can always source those out to a photo lab. But what would you be using the desktop for. I think there are many advantages to getting the printer that will yield the largest size prints-that you can afford, of course-cause you'll never regret it later on. I own a 2400 and I have to say that I'm sorely disappointed with the paper handling. It isn't reliable in the way that it handles third party papers. And sometimes it gives me trouble with Epson papers. The K3 inks are fabulous. I would really look in to the paper handling options between the two printers and ultimate image size.

Hopes this helps, good luck!
K
Title: Buying my first printer, epson 3800 or 2400
Post by: billg71 on December 20, 2007, 10:44:03 pm: Quote
......
I still hunting for a good 13inch roll paper for some off my panorama shoots, which is maybe one of twenty off my landscape shoots.

I think I move to bigger printer in a couple off years. But for now I happy with the smaller 2400. I only have test prints from 3800 and think 2400 is the same in print quality to my eyes.

Cheers,
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Daniel,

I don't know if it's available in Sweden, but I like Inkpress Luster for a general-purpose roll paper. It's a good quality paper, is very affordable, and prints well with the Epson Premium Luster profile. A drawback for me using the 2200 was that it comes on 3" core rolls, 50' long, which won't fit on the 2200. I don't know about the 2400, you need to check before you buy.

I also like the Ilford Gallerie Smooth Pearl , which comes in 2" core rolls 32' long. I think it gives you a better print than the Inkpress and it comes with its own profiles, but it's a little pricier. Fits on my 2200 with no problem and really looks good when printed on the 4800.

Both print very well with the K3 inks. I keep the Inkpress luster 8.5x11 in the 4800 for general use and proofing and use the Ilford rolls when I want a panorama print.

HTH,

Bill