Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: samuel_js on November 16, 2007, 09:49:15 pm
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Let's be honest and see which brand is the dominant DB. Guests should register if they want to know.
I'd like everyone to sign with their names and DB model. If you don't want to use your real name you can use your board name. Every vote in the poll should have a reply here.
I'd like people to skip the controversy here and make of this poll just a count post. I'll start another thread just for the comments.
For example:
DB: PhaseOne P21
Name: Samuel Axelsson
So first VOTE and then ADD REPLY.
Don't forget to add the reply!
For those who want to participate.
Thank's
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DB: Phase One P21
Name: Samuel Axelsson
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DB: Hasselblad cf132
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Phase One P45+
BillCB
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DB Aptus 75S
David Kipper
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DB: hasselblad H3D 39
Name: Jeff Grant
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DB: P30
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P45+
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DB: Leaf A75S
Andre Napier
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
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Leaf A75
John
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p25/h1
paul
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Mamiya ZD Back with AFD
Josh
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Leaf A75 - Contax/WDS/ARCA
Matt
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H3D 39
jørn
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P20 or more exactly Rollei db20p
Eric Hiss
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ruey loon / Aptus65 / Mamiya / Arca Swiss
http://www.rueyloon.com (http://www.rueyloon.com)
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my back is called milly S54LV
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Phase One P25 and Phase One P45 mounted on an H1 with plates to use on an RZ with a Kapture Group One shot cable and the Sinar P3 sliding adapter for use on the Sinar P3
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David
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p45+
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Phase One P45+
http://JPJespersen.blogspot.com (http://JPJespersen.blogspot.com)
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Imacon 132c (called Hasselblad since being refurbished), on Rollei 6008i.
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P45+ (on H2)
(Used to be H3D-39, switched nov. 2007, so deduct one from HB and add one to P1 on the poll...)
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DB: Leaf A65....waiting to get it upgraded to the 65s
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Leaf Aptus17
Hasselblad CF39
Imacon 384
I voted Hasselblad since I own 2 of them.
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Aptus 65 on Mamiya
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H3D 39
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H3D 39
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153508\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
emotion75lv
emotion22
gottschalt camera with rodenstock lenses
contax 645
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Mamiya 645AFD/II with Leap Aptus 22 DB
Name: Frank Doorhof
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DB: Sinar e75LV, waiting for a SB 54H, bought on eBay.
Sinar-m and Rollei 6008AF.
Yevgeny
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Leaf Aptus 75
Leaf Aptus 22
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P25
Tom
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DB. H3D39
Jose Usoz
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H3D II / Leaf Aptus 22 / Alpa / Frank
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H3D 39 II
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DB: Leaf Aptus 75
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Let's be honest and see witch brand is the dominant DB. Guests should register if they want to know.
SINAR 54 H
Jerry Reed
I'd like everyone to sign with their names and DB model. If you don't want to use your real name you can use your board name. Every vote in the poll should have a reply here.
I'd like people to skip the controversy here and make of this poll just a count post. I'll start another thread just for the comments.
For example:
DB: PhaseOne P21
Name: Samuel Axelsson
So first VOTE and then ADD REPLY.
Don't forget to add the reply!
For those who want to participate.
Thank's
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Olaf
Phase P30+
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Sinar e22
David Morcombe
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P25 / Mamiya AFD
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aptus 22 / contax 645
kipling phillips
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P45 + AFD II (+AFD 3 when it arrives )
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HassyH2 + P45plus
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Rollei 6008AF + Sinar 54LV
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P30+/Contax (stolen a couple weeks ago, sadly)
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Leaf Aptus 65 + Mamiya 645 AFD
(big mistake) next one will be PhaseOne
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Phase One P30+ on a Mamiya AFD III
don
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DB: Hasselblad
alanshoot
Alan Kolc
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Name: Christopher Arnoldi
DB: Sinarback 54 H
Sinar p3 with Sinaron Digital lenses
Sinar m with Sinaron ZH and Zeiss lenses
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Leaf
A75/Alpa SWA/Hasselblad 503CW
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Leaf CantareXY on Fuji GX680III.
And I will be buying a Sinar 43 when I can get my hands on one.
There is also a H3DII in the budget for next year.
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DB: Leaf Aptus 22 - Hasselblad 503cw
Andrew Dyer
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ZD camera
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Let's be honest and see witch brand is the dominant DB. Guests should register if they want to know.
I'd like everyone to sign with their names and DB model. If you don't want to use your real name you can use your board name. Every vote in the poll should have a reply here.
I'd like people to skip the controversy here and make of this poll just a count post. I'll start another thread just for the comments.
For example:
DB: PhaseOne P21
Name: Samuel Axelsson
So first VOTE and then ADD REPLY.
Don't forget to add the reply!
For those who want to participate.
Thank's
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Mamiya ZD camera but I do rent the Aptus 22 for a Mamiya mount.
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a22/afd2
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a22/afd2
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153710\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
P30 AFD II
John Betancourt
San Juan, PR
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P45+
AFD2
Cambo WDS
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DB: Hasselblad H3D-31
Name: Paul Hu
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P25
Contax 645
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6008AF with e22
Sinar M eit e75LV
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Hasselblad 500cm with A12 and Nikon Coolscan 9000, does that count?
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Funny thing is that the percentages remain kind of stable with the growing number of Votes.
About 19% Hasselblad, 24% Leaf, 10%Sinar, 3% Mamiya & 44%Phase. This does seem different than the numbers tossed around in other numbers.
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DB Back Phase P45
Victor
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P45+ and AFD...
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Phase One P20 on 'blad V
Chris Livsey
Non Pro User (I don't make money from my photography or try to )
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DB: Hasselblad CFV
Andreas Sturm
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Mamiya ZD with RZ67 II D
Stuart Lane
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P45+
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P45
H2
Arca 69
Jae Moon
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Sinar 43HR with Sinarcam2, four Sinar digital lenses. Sinar P2.
Mamiya 645 lens adapter with a lot of different lenses.
Nikon lens adapter with many Nikon lenses (the PC Micro-Nikkor 85 tilt-shift is a jewel !)
Adapter for the mamiya 645 Body.
I will buy soon a 54HR or a 75HR, but I'm waiting for the new program to choose.
PdF
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P25+/Alpa SWA
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SinarBack 54H on Sinar P3 (Sinaron Lenses) & Contax 645
Frank Poole USA
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DB: H3DII-39
Paul Prachun
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Mamiya 645 AFD ll
ZD back
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Leaf Aotus-17 on Hassy 503cw
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DB: Leaf A65
Name: David Anderson
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I think it's already in my sig
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Leaf Aptus 22
Joseph Paradiso
www.paradisostudio.com
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e 75
A 22
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Aptus 65 Hassy H2
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Leaf Valeo 17 on Hassy V
Hasselblad H3D39
Did not vote.
Bernd
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DB: Susan (aka P30+ on H1)
Steve Hart
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Aptus 22 on Mamiya AFDII
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Phase One P45+
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P45+
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P45+ on H1
Wayne Fox
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P30+ - CONTAX
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Interesting.
It would also be interesting to see if there is a different distribution for different regions (read continents).
Something else. Hope I didn't make a mistake while counting (ten fingers get you only so far )
From those who voted only a certain percentage replied:
Hassy 12 = 63%
Imacon 1 = 100%
Phase 31 = 59%
Sinar 11 = 79%
Leaf 31 = 90%
Mamiya 5 = 100%
The Phase guys seem to be a bit shy
Other interesting things (IMHO), but not statistically relevant.
From those replying there were 4 users using two backs of the same brand
1 Phase, 2 Sinar and 1 Leaf users.
And 4 users useing backs from different brands.
1 user switched (Hassy to Phase)
1 user planning to switch (Leaf to Phase)
1 user willing to switch or add (not clear) from Leaf, adding a Sinar and a Hassy
3 user willing to buy a further Back and/or upgrade staying with the same brand 2 Sinar, 1 Leaf
I hope I didn't oversee anything.
regards
SH
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Sold the A17. Currently have 2 Hassie\Imacon backs.
384 & CF39
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A22 / H1
Clem
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mamiya afd II & Phase One P30+
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That was me, sorry for the confusion, I will be adding to the two leaf backs I already own. The studio is expanding. Yay.
Interesting.
It would also be interesting to see if there is a different distribution for different regions (read continents).
Something else. Hope I didn't make a mistake while counting (ten fingers get you only so far )
From those who voted only a certain percentage replied:
Hassy 12 = 63%
Imacon 1 = 100%
Phase 31 = 59%
Sinar 11 = 79%
Leaf 31 = 90%
Mamiya 5 = 100%
The Phase guys seem to be a bit shy
Other interesting things (IMHO), but not statistically relevant.
From those replying there were 4 users using two backs of the same brand
1 Phase, 2 Sinar and 1 Leaf users.
And 4 users useing backs from different brands.
1 user switched (Hassy to Phase)
1 user planning to switch (Leaf to Phase)
1 user willing to switch or add (not clear) from Leaf, adding a Sinar and a Hassy
3 user willing to buy a further Back and/or upgrade staying with the same brand 2 Sinar, 1 Leaf
I hope I didn't oversee anything.
regards
SH
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Not to intentionally be a dick, but Steve Hendrix, where are your facts now? Based on the poll thus far it very closely mimics my experience and contradicts your 'facts'. If this isn't a valid cross section of pros and non pros worldwide I don't know what is.. Obviously 'sensor sales' are moot and I do believe my experience out weighs that of a salesman in Atlanta. Additionally, my experience is not from one market. Before moving to NY I was in Seattle and I have exposure to files and photographers from around the world.
I did not respond to your post before because I agree it doesn't warrant debate. However, you are wrong, as I originally stated.
Nov 17 2007, 04:27 PM
Post #187
regular
Group: Members
Posts: 271
Joined: 3-November 04
From: Atlanta, GA
Member No.: 8,592
QUOTE(Anthony R @ Nov 17 2007, 06:16 PM)
Please show me. I live and work in the hardly arguable photographic capital of the world. What doesn't live here, comes through here on a regular basis from the rest of this country, western Europe and beyond.
I see more Leaf and Phase than anything else. I would say that in the last year or so I have been seeing more Phase than in the past and would guesstimate that it is around 50/50 Phase - Leaf. No others in the professional market that I have seen, and I have seen a lot. One could even go to all the rental outfits in NY and see what they carry and/or query the prepress and retouching boutiques.
I do see a lot of H1s, H2s, etc.
If you have different information I would like to see it.
My information is not from looking around and seeing who is using what. My information is from sources who are familiar with the volume of sensor purchases from the two manufacturers that supply them.
We don't have to turn this into a he said she said thing. I'm not going to argue about who has what market share. I'm just stating that I am confident of the numbers and that 1) looking around one city, and 2) considering one market does not tell the most accurate story.
I don't have a problem if this claim goes un-believed, and it doesn't need to be debated. I can understand being in a major photographic market and not seeing much Hasselblad and coming to that conclusion. But if someone gets slammed because they are stating something I know to be true, I'll defend their claim.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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I currently own a Sinar eMotion-75LV.
Waiting for the Hy6 to replace the 6008's.
Cheers,
Willem.
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If this isn't a valid cross section of pros and non pros worldwide I don't know what is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Can you please explain why you think THIS is a valid statement??
You're not serious, right?
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Yeah, why not:
25,850 registered users.
Members replying to this specific thread from: Sweden, Australia, Toronto, Missouri, Boston, Nashville, LA, Scotland, Singapore, Utah, Norway, Netherlands, Germany, Luxembourg, Russia, UK, Mexico, AZ, CT, NY, S. Africa, Belgium, Ohio, Estonia, DC, Florida.
126 votes
What more do you want?
Hassy is 3rd, not #1
Would you prefer a closed, completely scientific poll where users who lie or can't prove the worth of their vote have the threat of bodily harm? What would make you happy?
Can you please explain why you think THIS is a valid statement??
You're not serious, right?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154462\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Yeah, why not:
25,850 registered users.
Members replying to this specific thread from: Sweden, Australia, Toronto, Missouri, Boston, Nashville, LA, Scotland, Singapore, Utah, Norway, Netherlands, Germany, Luxembourg, Russia, UK, Mexico, AZ, CT, NY, S. Africa, Belgium, Ohio, Estonia, DC, Florida.
126 votes
What more do you want?
Hassy is 3rd, not #1
Would you prefer a closed, completely scientific poll where users who lie or can't prove the worth of their vote have the threat of bodily harm? What would make you happy?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154471\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
C'mon. The only thing you can honestly surmise from this very informal poll is that it displays who is the most participatory group of respondents to the question - they are Phase owners, closely followed by Leaf owners. To say anything more makes it sound like you're try to push some sort of agenda.
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C'mon. The only thing you can honestly surmise from this very informal poll is that it displays who is the most participatory group of respondents to the question - they are Phase owners, closely followed by Leaf owners. To say anything more makes it sound like you're try to push some sort of agenda.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154476\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ok. that's fine.
I don't really care. I do not believe that Hassy backs are #1 in the market. That's all. That might change. I may soon own a Hassy back. I also might not.. I might not due to the fact that they are trying to be Microsoft. I wish them luck, they make fine products, but I don't think they'll be the industry leader any time soon.
I really need to Tucker myself from this site. 90% is tech talk and pontification from gearheads. That's fine, but not for me.
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C'mon. The only thing you can honestly surmise from this very informal poll is that it displays who is the most participatory group of respondents to the question - they are Phase owners, closely followed by Leaf owners. To say anything more makes it sound like you're try to push some sort of agenda.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154476\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's a ridiculous statement to make. People on this forum have a genuine interest in the issues being covered. Your suggestion is mere sophistry, and I agree with Anthony R that this is probably a fair reflection of distribution by back manufacturer. If you choose not to accept what you can clearly see with your own eyes, then fine.
BTW, I assume you don't own a Phase back? Correct?
(...and yes, I do own one. I am insulted that you are implying I am more likely to vote because I have a certain type of back. Does that mean Leaf owners care less about how they pursue their hobby / business than Phase owners? I think not.)
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Can one really consider the people voting in this poll to be representative for the entire MFDB using world? Come on.
[ and yes, I would have said this too when I would have owned a Phase One back... ]
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Let's start a flame war, come one. I could contribute something about Macs and PCs or Nikon and Canon or how about Mercedes and BMW
Seriously.
I do not know whether the data reflects the real numbers of backs in use. The numbers are too low to be of any statistical relevance.
Just image somebody posting on a Phase/Sinar/Leaf or whatever forum about this forum being helpful.
You will get 10 new users all using the same brand. Which will tip the balance without an increase in sold backs.
The same is true about people not using the internet, not knowing about this forum, not being able to speak the language, not being interested in forums, not haveing time and so on. They all are not included in these numbers.
If the data reflects the real numbers it is by pure chance.
So what ? It's of no consequence, except to employees of the respective companies.
Haveing a higher percentage of representation in this forum does not make one back better than the other.
Regards
SH
P.S.
Wim beat me to it, and he used much less words
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This poll amy have turned out quite differently if this were a German language forum...or Swedish, etc
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Phase One P25 / Mamiya 645 150mm 80mm 45mm 35mm
Leonardo Barreto
ps we are winning ! I knew it
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Let's start a flame war, come one. I could contribute something about Macs and PCs or Nikon and Canon or how about Mercedes and BMW
Seriously.
I do not know whether the data reflects the real numbers of backs in use. The numbers are too low to be of any statistical relevance.
Just image somebody posting on a Phase/Sinar/Leaf or whatever forum about this forum being helpful.
You will get 10 new users all using the same brand. Which will tip the balance without an increase in sold backs.
The same is true about people not using the internet, not knowing about this forum, not being able to speak the language, not being interested in forums, not haveing time and so on. They all are not included in these numbers.
If the data reflects the real numbers it is by pure chance.
So what ? It's of no consequence, except to employees of the respective companies.
Haveing a higher percentage of representation in this forum does not make one back better than the other.
Regards
SH
P.S.
Wim beat me to it, and he used much less words
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So, what do the forum members here have in common then, and how are we different. ...and how are those similarities and differences different to the real world population.
I think what I'm trying to say is that the things we have in common (all speak English (I suppose), all use digital backs, all like doing photography, all use internet etc) doesn't actually have any bearing on which back you would choose.
So then, why are the figures not at least indicative, if not statistically valid?
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Hasselblad
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So, what do the forum members here have in common then, and how are we different. ...and how are those similarities and differences different to the real world population.
I.e. speaking English.
If you are from a German speaking country, Sinar might be higher on the list, if you are Scandinavian, Hassy will be. Any Asian country, I have no guess.
Those people are missing. And they will tip the balance. By how much I can't say.
Also we usually overrate how small the percentage of users is that hang around in forums.
There will be many who use backs i.e. in science, archiving or art who will never enter a forum like this. Those "vertical" markets will have a different distribution.
And I'm quite sure that the distribution of backs sold via internet is different from that of backs sold by dealers. If you have a 10 year relation with your dealer and he claims Leaf or Sinar or Phase is best, you will tend to buy it, especially if you not familiar with the internet.
And if this forum started out as a Leaf forum or a forum where Leaf guys can get help, this forum will have a stronger Leaf population and so on.
Just let's imagine that a company has 5 dealers/employees active on this forum. And all vote for their brand that's all Mamiya votes or 10% of whoever you care.
And there are numbers. as a rule of thumb , statistics start at 1000 samples.
And even with a 1000 votes this would only be representative for English Speaking, Internet savvy users who know about this forum and take part in polls.
So I'm happy to agree that the numbers are an indication, but not more. And I admit that the ranking is what I feel to be right. But my feeling is based on impressions I get by surfing the internet, so this might be wrong as well
I found the comments about switches, planned purchases and multiple back owning more interesting than the numbers, anyway.
Regards
SH
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That's a ridiculous statement to make. People on this forum have a genuine interest in the issues being covered. Your suggestion is mere sophistry, and I agree with Anthony R that this is probably a fair reflection of distribution by back manufacturer. If you choose not to accept what you can clearly see with your own eyes, then fine.
BTW, I assume you don't own a Phase back? Correct?
(...and yes, I do own one. I am insulted that you are implying I am more likely to vote because I have a certain type of back. Does that mean Leaf owners care less about how they pursue their hobby / business than Phase owners? I think not.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154481\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My point was NOT to offend, but merely to suggest that such a broad interpretation of the figures might be reaching, just a bit. Had I known it would offend you, Jon, in such a distinctly personal way and result in being soundly flamed, I would simply not have bothered. I really don't care who is the leading MFDB mfr. They ALL work well and are useful tools. Obviously, it's a very personal choice for some. I also have had enough of this site and will likely "Tucker" myself as well.
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Phase One P25 / Mamiya 645 150mm 80mm 45mm 35mm
Leonardo Barreto
ps we are winning ! I knew it
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am sure that a very high percentage of MFDBs are owned by working professional photographers who have neither the time nor the interest in responding to such a "poll". Moreover, this is a VERY self-selected group that has self-reinforced the superiority of Phase One products, and it starts right at the top. Anyone who owns a MFDB made by Leaf, Sinar or, God forbid, Hasselblad and participates here on a regular basis is a complete contrarian[pick your description---and enjoy!] going against the conventional wisdom. Trust me, this is not where the working pro owners of Hasselblad MFDBs generally hang out.
The original question was about current sales of MFDBs, not sales made two or three years ago. I think it is completely inaccurate to extrapolate from older sales data because, for Hasselblad, everything changed last October with the introduction of the H3D.
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Take this poll on the Flexframe Hasselblad users forum
I'm a phase user now, and I still think a/the poll on this forum would not show any sort of accurate statistic on MFDB market share... There simply is too many variables not accounted for.
-axel
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I'm offended, you didn't mention Spanish or people from Brockton.
Did you know Brockton is the city of champions? Rocky Marciano, Marvin Hagler in me, We from Brockton, so why you mention just Boston, in only Inglesh speaker?
p45+ but I wish to sale it ,,Any one like to get a nice p45+?
BlasR
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Just to validate my opinion I want to remind everyone that I am not Hassenblad user nor to intent to become one in any foreseeable future.
Having said that I do not think that anybody on this forum expected Hassy to represent the biggest number of DB users here or in general market. It is hardly a secret that P1 represents the most digital back users at least in USA. What is missing in this discussion is the major aspect of any business evaluation which is called MOMENTUM.
If for a sake of conversation we assume that the percentage table of the market share posted below was correct 18 months ago or at the announcement of close system by Hassy:
Phase One - 55%
Leaf - 35%
Hassy - 10%
and we conclude tat as of today the market share looks like:
Phase One - 50%
Leaf - 30%
Hassy - 20%
than by all measurable means Hasselblad has the biggest momentum which makes it most dynamic company and the number one contender to the digital back throne.
Investors or even end users look at the momentum aspect much closer that the hard numbers of sale as it it the most predictable indication of company future.
http://andrenapier.com (http://andrenapier.com)
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I really like peach pie.
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"Trust me, this is not where the working pro owners of Hasselblad MFDBs generally hang out."
This translates in: Owners of Hasselblad have a) no time -- since they are booked solid -- b ) they hang out elsewhere generally.
a) and b ) are contradictory because who would like to hang out at a Hasselblad only forum where other owners have no time to go on line since they are too successful ?
I would rather hand out here where we shoot during the day and check other photographers experiences since we don't assume we know everything.
This, where the working pro owners of Hasselblad MFDBs generally hang out, are exclusive secret forum where they retreat to get away from the mass of Phase, Leaf, Sinar and ...ugh that cheap ZD ... owners?
We are talking about Fujifilm/Hasselblad/Imacon against Phase/Mamiya. Are this Pro Hasselblad owners sure that the master Medium Format in film times and the biggest back maker are going to loose their market share?
Anyway, I think I should check my gear for tomorrows work and not spend so much time in this amateurish forum -- as if someone would purchase a DB and is a non working pro, or a working non pro --
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When did this forum turn into DPReview?
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If someone wants to discuss “market share”, it would be a good idea to define what you mean by the terminology you’re using. “Market share” and “installed base” are not interchangeable terms in the world of business.
"Market share" is defined as the sales volume of a brand in a defined product category, in unit sales or monetary value, in relation to the overall market for the product category over a defined period of time. The defined period of time varies, but is most often calculated based on the 12-months of a calendar or fiscal year, though quarterly results are sometimes assessed for high-volume product categories.
"Installed base" is the term for examining market penetration over the life of a product in a given product category. This poll is an example of an informal sample of installed base for brands in a product category over an undetermined period of time. There is no attempt being made here to define market, user, region, time period or anything else that would provide some statistical framework.
Basically the only value will be to provide an undefined and limited sample of installed base for various brands of digital backs. Of course it may also have value to those who wish to use the results to reinforce their preconceived ideas (ideas about what, I have no way of knowing). Apparently Leonardo Barreto is also going to win something (though I’m unclear what that might be as well).
We did also learn that Anthony R really likes peach pie and enjoys obtuse wit. But then, so do I.
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flex' in effect
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This poll is certainly an "indication" of what the brand distribution is among the members of this forum, at a certain period of time. This cannot be denied.
Is it an indication of what happens outside of this forum and about market share or presence in the market? I doubt this can be extrapolated since market share is not defined that way at all. All we have here is a list of existing users owing a certain brand at a certain point of time.
It seems that the most important information coming out of this is certainly not who owes and work with which brand, but rather the points having been raised by Stefan.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Hasselblad CFV
Name: Rich Quindry
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Not to intentionally be a dick, but Steve Hendrix, where are your facts now? Based on the poll thus far it very closely mimics my experience and contradicts your 'facts'. If this isn't a valid cross section of pros and non pros worldwide I don't know what is.. Obviously 'sensor sales' are moot and I do believe my experience out weighs that of a salesman in Atlanta. Additionally, my experience is not from one market. Before moving to NY I was in Seattle and I have exposure to files and photographers from around the world.
I did not respond to your post before because I agree it doesn't warrant debate. However, you are wrong, as I originally stated.
QUOTE(Anthony R @ Nov 17 2007, 06:16 PM)
I see more Leaf and Phase than anything else. I would say that in the last year or so I have been seeing more Phase than in the past and would guesstimate that it is around 50/50 Phase - Leaf. No others in the professional market that I have seen, and I have seen a lot. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not to intentionally be a dick either, but what poll are you looking at that "very closely mimics [your] experience" and "guesstimate" of "around 50/50 Phase - Leaf. No others in the professional market"??
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Not to intentionally be a dick either, but what poll are you looking at that "very closely mimics [your] experience" and "guesstimate" of "around 50/50 Phase - Leaf. No others in the professional market"??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154578\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
loose estimate. The others do not make a signifigant enough dent in the differences to matter. It's a Leaf or Phase world PRIMARILY. And I don't care.
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loose estimate. The others do not make a signifigant enough dent in the differences to matter. It's a Leaf or Phase world PRIMARILY. And I don't care.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
By any estimate, the world of digital imaging is a rapidly changing one. Whether you care or not, I hope you enjoy the ride. It should be fun to watch the evolution.
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p45+ on sinar p2 and mamiya afd2
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P30+
Hans de Kort
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So, what do the forum members here have in common then, and how are we different. ...and how are those similarities and differences different to the real world population.
I think what I'm trying to say is that the things we have in common (all speak English (I suppose), all use digital backs, all like doing photography, all use internet etc) doesn't actually have any bearing on which back you would choose.
So then, why are the figures not at least indicative, if not statistically valid?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154504\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think what most of us have in common is an interest in participating in a forum and a higher technical understanding than average (if going by forum participation).
From what I notice over here (the Netherlands) Hasselblad has been able to interest people in their H3D solution that previously did not look at medium format. They know the name and feel they can get a complete solution instead of having to deal with parts and mix & Match. This doesn't say that is better it is just easier to understand for some people and probably instills more faith as well. These people also tend to show up on fora less which might count for the lower percentage of Hassie.
Naturally this is also speculating on my side.
I think this is a fair distribution and valid if you take into consideration all parameters. Just as valid as any other test of this magnitude.
Does it mean it is correct? Not necessarily so.
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PhaseOne P45+
Mamiya RZ IID
Cambo DSWide
McRepsej
Denmark
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Leaf Aptus 65
RZ67
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My point was NOT to offend, but merely to suggest that such a broad interpretation of the figures might be reaching, just a bit. Had I known it would offend you, Jon, in such a distinctly personal way and result in being soundly flamed, I would simply not have bothered. I really don't care who is the leading MFDB mfr. They ALL work well and are useful tools. Obviously, it's a very personal choice for some. I also have had enough of this site and will likely "Tucker" myself as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154519\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry for the tone: You didn't offend me at all. Just thought I would rebutt your assertion.
Neither did I intend to flame you, it just sounded like that. I guess that's one of the difficulties about using this method of communication.
I actually stopped participating in dpreview, because I was sick and tired of unreasoned and unjustified assertion (yours wasn't either of these, it had some validity), and anybody who made criticism got repeatedly flamed by a number of others. Hence it's deterioration into mud slinging.
I for one am more interested in developing my knowledge of all the sort of areas we discuss here in this forum, but I'd be the first to admit / accept / apologise that sometimes my posts look (at least partly) reactionary and offensive. I apologise to all and any concerned.
So I'm not posting any more on this thread unless someone asks me something directly
Jon
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The poll doesn't prove that Phase/Leaf are overwhelming the market, after all it is just a local simple poll, but it shows that here, in the English speaking Luminous Landscape part of the world it is so, and Hasselblad has put their cards on the table with the H3. Q1 2008 we will see what is going to happen with the introduction of two open systems, Hy6 and the Phase camera (we may also see an improved low costing second generation ZD-C1 back)
Leonardo
PS DISCLAIMER: I am not, or never have been associate with Mamiya or Phase and have never had "something to gain" from stating my humble opinions on this or any other forums. If I did so I would be a rich man since I like to do that a lot.
Leaf Aptus 65
RZ67
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154626\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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This is not my area of expertise which is why I ask. Don't the various DB manufacturers tell their shareholders how many units they sell each year?
Is it really only about money? 'We made a net profit of X dollars and we'll tell you all the expenses and debts, but how many units we sold is a trade secret' .
Is this how it is?
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Not to intentionally be a dick, but Steve Hendrix, where are your facts now? Based on the poll thus far it very closely mimics my experience and contradicts your 'facts'. If this isn't a valid cross section of pros and non pros worldwide I don't know what is.. Obviously 'sensor sales' are moot and I do believe my experience out weighs that of a salesman in Atlanta. Additionally, my experience is not from one market. Before moving to NY I was in Seattle and I have exposure to files and photographers from around the world.
I did not respond to your post before because I agree it doesn't warrant debate. However, you are wrong, as I originally stated.
Nov 17 2007, 04:27 PM
Post #187
regular
Group: Members
Posts: 271
Joined: 3-November 04
From: Atlanta, GA
Member No.: 8,592
QUOTE(Anthony R @ Nov 17 2007, 06:16 PM)
Anthony:
We'll save the discussions of genitalia for another thread...
If one knows where to look, you will find plenty of facts.
The idea that a poll on an online forum where 126 or so members (out of a market estimated around 10,000) have indicated which back they own provides evidence of any market leadership is not founded in reality. And while New York is certainly a large and influential market, it's worldwide impact is only 5% of the complete market.
It's easy for photographers to look around and assume they are seeing the reality of an overall market by what is going on around them. But the fact is local market share can be very misleading. It is not necessarily based on who has the best product, particularly for ownership. How market share is attained is also very complex and misleading. It also assumes that no one else exists other than the photographers you know and see and who shoot for clients you know and see. It supposes that there are few photographers who are not known by you or your clients.
Market share itself is a very easily misunderstood statistic. A company can have leading market share, and declining sales numbers. Still be perceived as the leader, but yet be losing ground to it's competitors. Since market share is always a changing dynamic, sales growth is a more accurate indicator of who really has their ducks in a row.
So think for a minute...you can't know every photographer out there. And what we have seen in our sales is that many photographers work very much under the radar. In an assistant/rental-driven market, there is a lot more "chatter" of who is who. A significant portion of our sales are to photographers that not only aren't known to other photographers, sometimes they're not even known to us. We don't know where they come from or where they were hiding. But they exist, in large numbers throughout the world, and they quietly do their work. A more accurate indicator of market share is not who you may be aware of is using a particular product, but the purchasing numbers from various suppliers...if you get my drift. And if you looked hard enough, you could probably find out that cold truth.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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What I do not understand from this or many other recent threats in this forum is why Pros are sooo..
preoccupied with defending their choices of brands. If it was not enough to constantly prove that our work is better than the work of the other guy in our market we also have to fight about our choices of cameras and digital devices. It is not like using P1 vs Leaf vs H etc. gives any better status or prestige. What I would like to hear is what you like about your choice instead of constantly reminding me that my choice is wrong as I am not affiliated with the leading brand. I do not find comfort in following the flock. I use Leaf and I would be completely comfortable if I was the only Leaf user left in USA. I use it because it works for ME! I used Phase for six years exclusively and switching was not an easy decision for me. Learning the new workflow was very hard so I had to see some real results to justify the transition. What I love about my back is the way the sensor captures colors. And no, you can not match with post processing. I gave the task to the best and most experience retouchers
and the results were still not the same for me. I am not saying here that Leaf colors are better. They are just better for me. I love the way Leaf captures whites and over-exposed areas around shiny object.
I love the fact that my moire problem is much less frequent with syntetic materials. I love the over all closer look to the film appearance that I was used to. I love that it works like a charm with RZ,
never giving me any errors so I can just concentrate on my work. I love the fact that very few other photogs are using A75S with Rz for fashion work so my work do not look as generic as if it was shot by the other guy.
Tell us what you like about your choice - whatever it is.
http://Andrenapier.com (http://Andrenapier.com)
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It’s amassing to me how a simple poll question has blown into an almost out and out war of words….
There is simply no way in hell that everyone, meaning more than two like minded people will agree on anything let alone which camera system is “better”.
When I first started back into photography I choose Canon. My very best friend used and swore by a Nikon. What we soon decided after several hundreds of images is that the better image belonged to the person who took it, was in the right place and right time, and was fortunate enough to get all the variables correct. It wasn’t about the equipment, it was about the skill.
I was glad to see this poll as I was wondering what others used. I don’t care a hoot if Phase One came in dead last.
Again it’s about the skill not the equipment. The days of lens with glass looking like they came from a coke bottle reject are long gone.
Enough said …..
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I stopped by on my way form West Chelsea where I was shooting --this is to show that I'am a working photographer, may be even a pro-- by Calumet that is on 22w 22cond. Street to pick up a copy of something I only knew recently existed and wanted very much: "CAPTURE ONE APPLIED CRAFTSMANSHIP / ADVANDED APPLICATION MANUAL" by Walter W. Borchenko a detailed beautifully printed "bible" for the use of C1 (seams to be not super new but not too old because it shows a box of PS CS2 on one of the illustrations).
Anyway, I decided to continue with the un scientific reckless polling practices started by other with Mr. Irwin Miller, the head sales person exclusive of digital back from Calumet, one of the biggest camera backs in the USA. He was very busy as is his custom, but I told him about rumors of Hasselblad taking over the MFDB world. He said that not so in his knowledge and that "perhaps they are getting even with the Leaf backs in sales", but that Phase was ahead of the two. Then I polled the person in charge of renting equipment also at Calumet and he confirmed the notion. "Hasselblad wants to sell more backs, but photographers want Phase and Leaf" he said.
I know that this is not important, that the camera doesn't make the photographer etc, etc, but I always enjoy streams of raw information even if they are small streams and a big river may be on the other side of the mountain for me to discover...
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I stopped by on my way form West Chelsea where I was shooting --this is to show that I'am a working photographer, may be even a pro-- by Calumet that is on 22w 22cond. Street to pick up a copy of something I only knew recently existed and wanted very much: "CAPTURE ONE APPLIED CRAFTSMANSHIP / ADVANDED APPLICATION MANUAL" by Walter W. Borchenko a detailed beautifully printed "bible" for the use of C1 (seams to be not super new but not too old because it shows a box of PS CS2 on one of the illustrations).
Anyway, I decided to continue with the un scientific reckless polling practices started by other with Mr. Irwin Miller, the head sales person exclusive of digital back from Calumet, one of the biggest camera backs in the USA. He was very busy as is his custom, but I told him about rumors of Hasselblad taking over the MFDB world. He said that not so in his knowledge and that "perhaps they are getting even with the Leaf backs in sales", but that Phase was ahead of the two. Then I polled the person in charge of renting equipment also at Calumet and he confirmed the notion. "Hasselblad wants to sell more backs, but photographers want Phase and Leaf" he said.
I know that this is not important, that the camera doesn't make the photographer etc, etc, but I always enjoy streams of raw information even if they are small streams and a big river may be on the other side of the mountain for me to discover...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154816\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I appreciate your field work, but a little friendly advice. The successful, highly respected working pros in the Big Apple don't communicate with multiple little yelllow faces.
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hcubell, At least I use my name and post my website where people can see my work, and no, I am not successful and or highly respected, I never said I was, just a working photographer. And the yellow faces, you have a point there, I may stop that, thanks.
Leonardo
I appreciate your field work, but a little friendly advice. The successful, highly respected working pros in the Big Apple don't communicate with multiple little yelllow faces.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154819\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Wow!
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Wow!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154829\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
AndreNapier, "The successful, highly respected working pros in the Big Apple don't communicate with multiple little yelllow faces."
You must be unsuccessfull, not respected unemployed consumer ... or ... NOT
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hcubell, At least I use my name and post my website where people can see my work, and no, I am not successful and or highly respected, I never said I was, just a working photographer. And the yellow faces, you have a point there, I may stop that, thanks.
Leonardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just kidding. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.
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What I do not understand from this or many other recent threats in this forum is why Pros are sooo..
preoccupied with defending their choices of brands. If it was not enough to constantly prove that our work is better than the work of the other guy in our market we also have to fight about our choices of cameras and digital devices. It is not like using P1 vs Leaf vs H etc. gives any better status or prestige. What I would like to hear is what you like about your choice instead of constantly reminding me that my choice is wrong as I am not affiliated with the leading brand. I do not find comfort in following the flock. I use Leaf and I would be completely comfortable if I was the only Leaf user left in USA. I use it because it works for ME! I used Phase for six years exclusively and switching was not an easy decision for me. Learning the new workflow was very hard so I had to see some real results to justify the transition. What I love about my back is the way the sensor captures colors. And no, you can not match with post processing. I gave the task to the best and most experience retouchers
and the results were still not the same for me. I am not saying here that Leaf colors are better. They are just better for me. I love the way Leaf captures whites and over-exposed areas around shiny object.
I love the fact that my moire problem is much less frequent with syntetic materials. I love the over all closer look to the film appearance that I was used to. I love that it works like a charm with RZ,
never giving me any errors so I can just concentrate on my work. I love the fact that very few other photogs are using A75S with Rz for fashion work so my work do not look as generic as if it was shot by the other guy.
Tell us what you like about your choice - whatever it is.
http://Andrenapier.com (http://Andrenapier.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thoughtful, well reasoned and most of all positive! Thanks, very refreshing to read.
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DB: Imacon Ixpress 132c
Name: James Chen
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DB: Leaf Valeo22wi
Name: Graeme Waugh
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45+ for Hassy V systems
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DB: Leaf Aptus 65
Name: Peter Whyte
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Let's be honest and see witch brand is the dominant DB. Guests should register if they want to know.
I'd like everyone to sign with their names and DB model. If you don't want to use your real name you can use your board name. Every vote in the poll should have a reply here.
I'd like people to skip the controversy here and make of this poll just a count post. I'll start another thread just for the comments.
For example:
DB: PhaseOne P21
Name: Samuel Axelsson
So first VOTE and then ADD REPLY.
Don't forget to add the reply!
For those who want to participate.
Thank's
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Brandon Syn
Mamiya ZD back with Mamiya AFD II
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Contax / P25
H3DII-39
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Digital backs:
Emotion 75lv
54H
23H
Name: Dean Elliott
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PO P30
Roman Medvid
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H3DII-31
nikf
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P45 (Contax)
tho_mas
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Leaf Valeo 17 ( cambo ultima)
Kyle Lane
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Hasselblad CFV..503CWD
Steve
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Brad Gibson - Sinar eMotion 75LV
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DB: Phase P45 / Contax
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P30 on a Contax 645 . . . if we're still playing . . .
-Ron H.
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P30+ on a Contax
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DB: Eyelike Precision M11
Camera: Mamiya 645AFD
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DB: PhaseOne P45
Name: Erick Boileau
and Hasselblad H1
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P30+ on Phamiya AFD
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GX680 III
DB: Imacon 132C
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DB: P45
Mark
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DB: Imacon 132c
Mamiya 645AFD
Andrew Kulpin
WWW (http://andreykulpin.com)
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P45+
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DB: Phase One P21
Josh Luna
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Hasselblad H2 and PhaseOne P45+
John
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Hasselblad H3D11-39 and
Phase Gone - Sinar 75LVr replaced it.
March 09.
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Sinar 75H P3 CMV lens (previous 54H owner)
Kenton Robertson
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DB: Hasselblad Ixpress V96C
on a Bronica SQ-B body via Silvestri V adapter plate.
Jason Tay
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DB: Phase One P45+
Piet Gispen
http://www.pietgispen.com (http://www.pietgispen.com)
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P45+
P21
shuttersny
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P45+/H1
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P45+
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A75 on Cambo Wide, Mamiya 645 II and Ebony 45s
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Sinar 23hr
Sinar Emotion75
Jaime Brotons
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1. Sinar eMotion 75LV (Just ordered ) + Contax 645 and Sinar P2
2. Jenoptik Eyelike Precision M22 multishot - I guess this is counted as 'others' but I can only vote once.
Ben
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DB: H3Dll39
Name: David Roche
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Let's be honest and see which brand is the dominant DB. Guests should register if they want to know.
I'd like everyone to sign with their names and DB model. If you don't want to use your real name you can use your board name. Every vote in the poll should have a reply here.
I'd like people to skip the controversy here and make of this poll just a count post. I'll start another thread just for the comments.
For example:
DB: PhaseOne P21
Name: Samuel Axelsson
So first VOTE and then ADD REPLY.
Don't forget to add the reply!
For those who want to participate.
Thank's
P45+ on Contax and Alpa 12
H3D39 on H3
Kaisern C.
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H2 and H1 backup body with P30+
ken scott
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H3D-II 31
And it's called "Dave", or "The Hoff", since my assistant Kate decided to start calling it the Hasselhoff instead of the Hasselblad...
Hywel Phillips
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H3DII-39
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p45+ on H2
Bernhard Kristinn - Iceland
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Leaf Aptus II 10 on Contax 645
Robb Williamson - Colorado - USA
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In my signature.
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H3D11-50, see signature... intend to upgrade to H4d-60 when it come out in mid January 2009
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Nov 16 2007, 09:49 PM
Almost nov 16, 2009
So 2 years a part. When i voted I have phase one, now I got Hasselblad, so if some one like to start a new DB I think can be diffrent.
I think the person the start this post when to kamandu,Nepal, to work
Blas
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Nov 16 2007, 09:49 PM
Almost nov 16, 2009
So 2 years a part. When i voted I have phase one, now I got Hasselblad, so if some one like to start a new DB I think can be diffrent.
I think the person the start this post when to kamandu,Nepal, to work
Blas
I really think it would be interesting to make a new one and see if something really has shifted here.
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This place is crazy.
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Leaf Aptus 75S on Linhof 679cc - Rodenstock Lenses. Rollei Electronic Shutter.
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H3D-39
cheers
thomas
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Mamiya with AFD (plus Kodak pro back) Hoping to buy a P45+ for my Horseman SW-D.
Stuart Lane - Arizona, USA
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Leaf 75s on Afi
mark - Hong Kong
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Leaf Aptus II-7
Mamiya mount on Arca Swiss M-Line Two mf
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Rolleiflex 6008AF + DB20p (PhaseOne P20)
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Leaf Aptus 75s on Mamiya AFDII, RZ67 proIID, Cambo Ultima
Jeff Bubp-Turner
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Hasselblad H3DII-39mp
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Sinar eMotion 75LV and Mamiya 645AFD
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Phase One P20 on an H2
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Sinar eMotion 54LV
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I voted, but I think I didn't post:
Contax 645 AF + Sinar eMotion 54 LV.
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Sinar Hy6 eMotion75
Eric Seow