Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: marcmccalmont on November 10, 2007, 03:42:18 am
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I am planning on purchasing a MFDB for my Mamiya AFD II. I am on a budget but don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish so..... for landscape and nature which would you buy and why. Mamiya ZD back; $6900(new), or Aptus 22 $10,500(demo) or Phase P30 $12,500(demo)?
Image quality is most important, #1 dynamic range, #2 color, #3 resolution
I'm trying to make a step up from my 5D which I find the dynamic range more limiting than anything else here in Hawaii.
I don't have a dealer in the area to do a personal comparison so your help is appreciated.
Thanks
Marc
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I am planning on purchasing a MFDB for my Mamiya AFD II. I am on a budget but don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish so..... for landscape and nature which would you buy and why. Mamiya ZD back; $6900(new), or Aptus 22 $10,500(demo) or Phase P30 $12,500(demo)?
Image quality is most important, #1 dynamic range, #2 color, #3 resolution
I'm trying to make a step up from my 5D which I find the dynamic range more limiting than anything else here in Hawaii.
I don't have a dealer in the area to do a personal comparison so your help is appreciated.
Thanks
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151679\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would recommend the Phase, based on your choice of subject and body preference, and personal experience with now my third Phase back (P25 upgraded to P45 upgraded to P45+).
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I like my Phase (P45), have no experience of the others, but believe you wouldn't go wrong with the Leaf either.
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Hi
Given the price difference I would go for the Aptus 22, the new software is excellent. Leaf have been doing this for a long time & if I had to buy a another back it would be the Aptus 22. I still like the ZD camera & prefer it for out side because it is smaller & really feels like a DSLR. But for studio work I prefer the Aptus 22.
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I'd do Phase, for many reasons, not worth going into here, but suffice to say they appear to be tying something up with Mamiya, so if you know and like that system, then you're on the road already.
I'm on my second Phase back. no problems whatsoever to report after 3 years.
be sure to negotiate around a LOT. you can probably get far better deals than you are being offered, if you haggle with various dealers. both mine came from Capture Integration, who are excellent.
good luck
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I am in the same boat as you and leaning towards the Aptus 22.. For various reasons, but Being a couple thousand less than the P30 also helps..:+}
Just waiting for the best price and I am buying...:+}
Good luck on your decision they are both fine Backs!!
Snook
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so everybody tell you to buy what he owns. normal,- but not very usefull i think.
what kind of photos do you take? landscape?people?fashion? i think this is the first think we should know to advise something.
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I would go with the Aptuss 22. I own the ZD back and the image quality arguably is in the ballpark with the Aptus but the Aptus has a larger buffer, lossless compression, an LCD that actually works and LC 11.
The only issue is finding an Aptus for $10k - they seem to be a rare beast these days.
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I have used 3 brands now and believe all can be made to work, the differences are in the details. Which can be important in some cases, if not I would go for the one I could get cheapest.
When you need higher ISO or long exposure the P30 is the way to go. When you need to also use it on viewlike cameras with movements the A22 would probably be a better choice.
The LCD of the Aptus outside is hardly visible. The best thing about the LCD on the A22 (or A17 in my case) I find are: the excellent histogram and exposure indication & the ease of tapping whitepoint (non are absolutely necessary but very pleasant in use). I also liked the built-quality of the Aptus (in comparison with my Hasselblad CF back).
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Hi Marc
Are you actually going to be able to try both these backs? I did and found that Phase has a very basic, simple set of controls, almost a minimalist approach. Leaf seemed to offer far more LCD functionality. For example; pre shoot file naming, job folders, metadata, file annotations....etc.
For me I preferred the very quick and easy 4 button approach of Phase so I bought a Mamiya 645 AFD2 and a P30+. But everyone's workflow is personal and you may find the Leaf more suitable.
Quality wise I found it hard to tell the difference. They were both excellent and minor differences could have been due to a host of factors such as processing, lenses.... etc. I can't comment on the ZD but I'm very happy with my AFD2/P30+
Finally,wait for the rest of November before making a choice. Phase is due to make an announcement about future plans. Although as Jon says I'm sure you won't go wrong with either. Also check Michael's excellent article on MFDB's which underlines the importance of your dealer relationship. Regards
Olaf
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so everybody tell you to buy what he owns. normal,- but not very usefull i think.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151710\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Buy the P30.
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think at the crop. The P30 as smaller sensor.
ZD and Aptus 22 are 48x36.
Makes difference if you shoot wide.
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so everybody tell you to buy what he owns. normal,- but not very usefull i think. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151710\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My list (I do have one of them)
Mega budget landscapes.
5d and stitching rig
Slow shooting in good light on a budget.
Mamya back
Generally good light, more pressure and solidity possiblity of easy mount change easy handling of shifts
Sinar 54LV
Fashion + portraits, up to 400 handhelfd use
P30
Long exposrues and mega quality
P45
Shifts and Megaquality
Sinar 75
Any general phtography including a need for a very wide, decent flash synch and AF - good allround performance
Hassy H3x
Would be my summary
Leaf is off this list IMO becuase simlar price/quality to sinar products but no easy mount change or built in memory but basically interchangeble with 54LV subject to price/dealer considerations
SMM
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I am planning on purchasing a MFDB for my Mamiya AFD II. I am on a budget but don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish so..... for landscape and nature...
I'm trying to make a step up from my 5D which I find the dynamic range more limiting than anything else here in Hawaii.Thanks
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151679\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are any mfdb's of this level going to be right for landscape work if the most important thing is...as you say...image quality?...not to mention the lens factor crop (excepting the zd back of course) if you like wide angles...sorry if that sounds negative but just wanted to bring it up!
Marc (not the o.p.!)
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Are any mfdb's of this level going to be right for landscape work if the most important thing is...as you say...image quality?...not to mention the lens factor crop (excepting the zd back of course) if you like wide angles...sorry if that sounds negative but just wanted to bring it up!
Marc (not the o.p.!)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151756\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Marc
Right now I'm using a 5D and stitching panos so if with a 22Mpix MFDB that has 12 stops of dynamic range I'm hoping to to do the same with a bit more resolution but a lot more dynamic range. I'm usually disapointed with the resolution of a single 5D shot and too many nice sunsets/sunrises not to capture them at there best. An example of a single 5D shot that I would like to do better with a MFDB
unfortunately I convert into Dcam3 color space and a lot of color is lost when converted into an adobe rgb jpeg but you can get the idea.
Marc
[attachment=3791:attachment]
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My list (I do have one of them)
Mega budget landscapes.
5d and stitching rig
Slow shooting in good light on a budget.
Mamya back
Generally good light, more pressure and solidity possiblity of easy mount change easy handling of shifts
Sinar 54LV
Fashion + portraits, up to 400 handhelfd use
P30
Long exposrues and mega quality
P45
Shifts and Megaquality
Sinar 75
Any general phtography including a need for a very wide, decent flash synch and AF - good allround performance
Hassy H3x
Would be my summary
Leaf is off this list IMO becuase simlar price/quality to sinar products but no easy mount change or built in memory but basically interchangeble with 54LV subject to price/dealer considerations
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151745\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Morgan.. what Sinars are equal to the Aptus 22??
And what built in memory are you speaking of.. You lost me a little there.?
Thanks for an explanation.
From my research the P30 and Aptus 22 are about the best bang for the buc...:+}
Snook
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Marc
Right now I'm using a 5D and stitching panos so if with a 22Mpix MFDB that has 12 stops of dynamic range I'm hoping to to do the same with a bit more resolution but a lot more dynamic range. I'm usually disapointed with the resolution of a single 5D shot and too many nice sunsets/sunrises not to capture them at there best. An example of a single 5D shot that I would like to do better with a MFDB
unfortunately I convert into Dcam3 color space and a lot of color is lost when converted into an adobe rgb jpeg but you can get the idea.
Marc
[attachment=3791:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
I shoot a LOT of clouds, sunsets due to where we live, We have a great outlook. I used to shoot on the 5D until I got the ZD camera. The DR with the ZD is so much better that the 5D that I rarely use the 5D for that purpose anymore. Chip size is important to us so I would go either with the ZD or Aptus 22. You also have to think of start up time. with the ZD camera it is about one second. with the Aptus 22 I think it is around 10-15 seconds? If you are shooting landscapes the larger chip size is a must as you need wide lenses. Start up time would be an issue for me too. For example when I see clouds I like ,I grab the ZD turn it on & shoot. If there was a lag time of 10-15 seconds that would drive me nuts. Higher iso just shoot with the 5D. Most of my shooting is at iso 50 as there is plenty of light. With the ZD you can capture RAW/jpeg. The reason I am bringing this up is you can buy a viewer Epson, Canon etc. Download the card into the viewer & scroll through your images (jpeg) that way if you are concerned about the screen size. I rarely look at my screen anymore both with the ZD & 5D. This also saves on battery life & most important you are taking pictures. I am so confident with the ZD camera now that the screen is not that important to me anymore. The camera is set on P ,AWB & AF, I just point and shoot. I find the metering excellent. This has been my experience so far. Studio I still prefer the Aptus 22.
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Morgan.. what Sinars are equal to the Aptus 22??
And what built in memory are you speaking of.. You lost me a little there.?
Thanks for an explanation.
From my research the P30 and Aptus 22 are about the best bang for the buc...:+}
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151809\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
not morgan, but i'll take a stab at it: the equivalent of the aptus 22 is the emotion 22....in addition to being able to shoot to a card, the emotions have a built in hard drive: i know the e-75 has a 6 gig drive built in..i think the e22 has somewhere between 2 and 4 gigs of built in memory.
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Part of my thought process is that if I went for the ZD the difference in price would fund other lenses etc. If the IQ of the ZD is not that far off I'm leaning in that direction. Unless a P30 shows up on ebay for under 10K!
Marc
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Part of my thought process is that if I went for the ZD the difference in price would fund other lenses etc. If the IQ of the ZD is not that far off I'm leaning in that direction. Unless a P30 shows up on ebay for under 10K!
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151816\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The full size sensor of the zd will be a really important issue for landscapes as I assume you shoot with wide angles.
As you say the price of the zd (back or even zd camera) means you cand spend the money on the best glass so with the mamiya cameras you can also use zeiss hasselblad glass if you like that.
I think for landscapes you have the luxury of giving the digital sensor the best chance to shine with gtripod, mirror up, the best glass you can get, etc.
Good luck with it all.
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Marc
I used to shoot landscape with a 1Ds II and just this year moved to MFDB. My choice was the Mamiya AFD II along with a P30. Best move I ever made.
Suggest you contact Chris Lawery at Capture Integration in Atlanta GA to see what he can offer you.
Best of luck!
don
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The eMotion 22 has been replaced by the eMotion 54 LV and is the equivalent to the Aptus 22, with the same 22 MPx Dalsa sensor.
It's internal "Solid State" memory has 4 GB: in opposition to hard drives, this solid state memory is shock-resistant. And in additon, internal slot for CF cards.
Bets regards,
Thierry
not morgan, but i'll take a stab at it: the equivalent of the aptus 22 is the emotion 22....in addition to being able to shoot to a card, the emotions have a built in hard drive: i know the e-75 has a 6 gig drive built in..i think the e22 has somewhere between 2 and 4 gigs of built in memory.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151815\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Marc
I have been shooting stitched panos for some time with the Canon 10D/20D/5D. I bought the ZD camera earlier this year in full knowledge of the speed limitations and knowing I'd still be using the 5D for the large stitching jobs. I wasn't wrong.
Some of my stitches are from only five or six frames and the ZD is fine for this - it's within the 11 shot buffer. On the other hand I do a fair number of multi-row stitches (maybe 20-30 frames) and these are not suitable for the ZD - at 10 seconds per shot after the 11 shot buffer is filled, you'd be there forever.
More often than not I bracket exposures - usually a bracket of three, but sometimes two or three sets of bracketed exposures i.e. six or nine shots. An example. (http://www.frankrichardson.com.au/galleries/kimberley/bungles/content/52501_CathedralGorge_large.html) In this scenario of course the ZD is absolutely not usable. With these setups I occasionally hit the buffer on the 5D, so any MF rig will slow you down to some degree.
So at 50 or 100 ISO with exposures up to a few seconds the image quality is excellent and the dynamic range is certainly better than the 5D. For panos of up to eleven or so frames - including any bracketing - it is perfectly usable. But if you do very large stitch projects you'll need something faster, or stick to the 5D.
Regards
Frank
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i think you should also test the emotion22. several people here went with either the e22 or the e75 after comparing them to other backs ....... but try it out and use the brumbaer tools if you want to see how good these backs are.
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i think you should also test the emotion22. several people here went with either the e22 or the e75 after comparing them to other backs ....... but try it out and use the brumbaer tools if you want to see how good these backs are.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151921\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
For stitching the e-motions have NO buffer till the memory is full
S
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I believe the Leaf Aptus 22 is also with no buffer.. 1.2 Fps until your card fills which is also a great reason over the ZD for sure..
Not sure what a refurbed or Demo eMotion 22 Sinar is, But the Aptus 22 are the most reasonably priced backs in their league if you ask me. Following with the P30.
But this is only my understanding through A lot of research..:+}
Snook
I see the name Sinar or Bron and my wallet immediately starts to burn...:+]
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John seeing how you have one and I don not..:+}
I checked a couple times and it states on the Leaf page that:
quote "Save time on post-shoot organization and processing. Determine
With the Leaf Aptus, you can shoot at a rate of up to 1.2 sec per
frame and with an uninterrupted burst of 1000 frames"
I also read on their data sheets that it says 1.2 seconds per frame with unlimited amount?
That kind of baffles me?
What do they mean by that and it is on the Aptus 22 information page and PDF?
Thanks for any heads up or corrections..
Thanks
Snook
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John-
Try an extreme (III or IV if they make one) 2GB card. The smaller the card, the faster the read/write access.
MC
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I believe the Leaf Aptus 22 is also with no buffer.. 1.2 Fps until your card fills which is also a great reason over the ZD for sure..
Not sure what a refurbed or Demo eMotion 22 Sinar is, But the Aptus 22 are the most reasonably priced backs in their league if you ask me. Following with the P30.
But this is only my understanding through A lot of research..:+}
Snook
I see the name Sinar or Bron and my wallet immediately starts to burn...:+]
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=151938\")
[a href=\"http://www.leaf-photography.com/imgs/uploads/leaf_aptus_ds.pdf]http://www.leaf-photography.com/imgs/uploa...af_aptus_ds.pdf[/url]
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Some of my stitches are from only five or six frames and the ZD is fine for this - it's within the 11 shot buffer. On the other hand I do a fair number of multi-row stitches (maybe 20-30 frames) and these are not suitable for the ZD - at 10 seconds per shot after the 11 shot buffer is filled, you'd be there forever.
Wow. That many on a MFDB ... that's a lot of resolution.
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I have thought about that, but looking at the CF card speeds posted on Rob Galbraith, there is barely a 2% difference between the Extreme IV 2GB and 4GB [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152004\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In terms of the original poster and write speeds my summary would be.
There is a risk of hitting the buffer on the ZD
On other backs this is not a consideration
S
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There is a risk of hitting the buffer on the ZD
As someone who owns a ZD back I will confirm this. The buffer in the ZD is small and you've got to be very careful of not filling it during shooting.
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We have done some testing of our Leaf Aptus 54S. The test is done on a Hasselblad H1 with mirror up in order not slow down the back.
see link:
http://blog.captureforce.com/?p=5 (http://blog.captureforce.com/?p=5)
Sincerely,
Esben
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We have done some testing of our Leaf Aptus 54S. The test is done on a Hasselblad H1 with mirror up in order not slow down the back.
Sincerely,
Esben
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152143\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Esben,
If you swing by this thread again is there a reason you chose the A54s over the A75s? I'm assuming money was not an issue and speed was more important than resolution. Am I correct? Having owned an A75, I'm actually considering an AFi5. The only thing that has me talking to myself is the loss of resolution, hence my interest.
Thanks,
David
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I am planning on purchasing a MFDB for my Mamiya AFD II. I am on a budget but don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish so..... for landscape and nature which would you buy and why. Mamiya ZD back; $6900(new), or Aptus 22 $10,500(demo) or Phase P30 $12,500(demo)?
Image quality is most important, #1 dynamic range, #2 color, #3 resolution
I'm trying to make a step up from my 5D which I find the dynamic range more limiting than anything else here in Hawaii.
I don't have a dealer in the area to do a personal comparison so your help is appreciated.
Thanks
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151679\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can't compare the other backs, but I switched from a 5D to a P30+ looking for the same 3 items. I received a P30 prior to taking delivery of the P30+.
#1 The difference in DR from the 5D is worth the upgrade. (Probably similar with other DB) From the first exposure I was amazed at the difference. The smile has been on my face ever since.
#2 The sharpness difference due to no AA filter and 50% more resolution is substantial.
#3 The AWB is useless on the P30, use an expo disk or daylight WB and adjust later.
I shoot nothing but nature and landscape.
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eTrump...
Do you notice any "Major" differences between the P30 and the P30+?
Really wondering as from what I have read not much of a difference for the upgrade price difference..
Can you verify that?
Thanks for you information
Snook
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The 50 frames/ minute spec is measured on a "fast" 645 camera i.e H1/2 and Contax. This represent the fastest speed that the A22 can capture = 1.2 sec/ frame
The 645AFD/ II has a small shutter lag and also the digital interface has a lag of about 0.2sec, so overall it is just under 1.5 sec/ frame, which is exactly what your test shows.
Yair
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eTrump...
Do you notice any "Major" differences between the P30 and the P30+?
Really wondering as from what I have read not much of a difference for the upgrade price difference..
Can you verify that?
Thanks for you information
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152371\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Snook, I'm not eTrump but I had a P30 loaner for about 30 days before my P30+ came in and depending on what you might consider "Major" then my answer is no. My loaner had live preview which is something as a landscape/nature guy I simply have no use for. I think my loaner was sort of a hybred with firmware upgraded from what it started life as.
BTW congrats on the P30! The smile on my face is the same as the very first day of delivery.
don
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Thanks for the info..
I could care a less about live preview and higher ASA..
I never shoot above 100 asa , so not sure it would benefit me either.
Snook
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Esben,
If you swing by this thread again is there a reason you chose the A54s over the A75s? I'm assuming money was not an issue and speed was more important than resolution. Am I correct? Having owned an A75, I'm actually considering an AFi5. The only thing that has me talking to myself is the loss of resolution, hence my interest.
Thanks,
David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152280\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi David
I think the Leaf Aptus 54S is one of the best backs, if not the best. The ability to shoot whenever you want is what makes it brilliant. This back is very nice at ISO 25 and is definitive useable up to 100. At ISO 200 and 400, its start to get a little noisy, especially if you're pushing the histogram. The 22MP is suitable for 95% of our clients.
Sincerely,
Esben
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hello,
you gave me some good advice a few weeks back with focus problems on my 5D.
i dropped the camera and got 2 contax 645 with 35/45/120/140/210 lenses, i am delighted with my purchase of a P21 digital back. just that you know, phase one have some refurbished p20/21/30 etc etc. the beauty of it is that they rename as refurbished some brand new unsold p backs, they just clock in 1000 shots to make them refurbished. the deals are good, as oppose to leaf valeo those backs have a sleeping architecture making it unnecessary to have a cooling system, the menu is simple, complete and intuitive and dont need a stylus to operate. the quality of files is mindblowing on any count.
regards
rejcd
I am planning on purchasing a MFDB for my Mamiya AFD II. I am on a budget but don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish so..... for landscape and nature which would you buy and why. Mamiya ZD back; $6900(new), or Aptus 22 $10,500(demo) or Phase P30 $12,500(demo)?
Image quality is most important, #1 dynamic range, #2 color, #3 resolution
I'm trying to make a step up from my 5D which I find the dynamic range more limiting than anything else here in Hawaii.
I don't have a dealer in the area to do a personal comparison so your help is appreciated.
Thanks
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=151679\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hello,
you gave me some good advice a few weeks back with focus problems on my 5D.
i dropped the camera and got 2 contax 645 with 35/45/120/140/210 lenses, i am delighted with my purchase of a P21 digital back. just that you know, phase one have some refurbished p20/21/30 etc etc. the beauty of it is that they rename as refurbished some brand new unsold p backs, they just clock in 1000 shots to make them refurbished. the deals are good, as oppose to leaf valeo those backs have a sleeping architecture making it unnecessary to have a cooling system, the menu is simple, complete and intuitive and dont need a stylus to operate. the quality of files is mindblowing on any count.
regards
rejcd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just got a refurb P30
Marc
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Just got a refurb P30
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156889\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Congrats.. Marc
I to just got a P30...:+} and it did not cost 64,000...
For a Mamiya AFDII and RZII proD..:+}
Snook