Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Tim Gray on October 31, 2007, 09:37:27 am
-
Being in Canada (Toronto) I'm a bit miffed that the local prices don't reflect the current exchange reality - so I checked Adorama who had the G9 at $445 compared to Henry's at $600. Even with shipping, this is a no brainer even for a "cheap" purchase. For say, a 10% premium I still normally buy local. Anyway I ordered yesterday at about 10:00 am and just got a call from FedEx that it would be delivered today. I've never had next day from the US!
In any event, I'm also probably going to invest in a 1DS3 early in the new year. The posted pice difference between Canada and the US is $1,000 and if I add a short detour to Buffalo during my winter trip to Niagara Falls, and "walk it back" (yeah - so I'm a criminal ) The difference is probably closer to $2k. How many can they possible sell at the "made in Canada" price? AFIK, the warranty is North American, so no Grey Market issues... And of course the more expensive, the more incentive to go south - I have no idea how the Vistek's of Canada will be able to sell their MF gear.
-
Adorama who had the G9 at $445 compared to Henry's at $600
difference between Canada and the US is $1,000
Do you happen to know if this differential is due to mail order vs. walk-in sales or just one retailer vs. another?
Henry's and Vistek's do pay salaries and other overhead related to doing walk-in sales. I find it pretty valuable to have a local retail outlet to try before I buy, see various camera bodies side by side, etc., so I am willing to pay a certain increment to support that, but I'm in no position to know how much increment is fair and how much is profiteering. I guess one indicator would be what other walk-in retailers are selling cameras for vs. responsible on-line sellers like Adorama, B&H, etc.
-
Adorama & B&H have walk-in stores. Their online business is run no differently than Vistek's and Henry's. It's a simple combination of profiteering (retailer / wholesaler) and an unwillingness to adapt from a pre-internet 'closed' market where they were the only big retailers around - and when they could 'hide' the extra margin (vs. US retailers) with sales folks mumbling about FX rates and non-existent duties for people who didn't do the math/homework.
When KEH or B&H can give you better prices w/ no duties, better new and used selection, more informed and responsive sales staff, better on-line info (ever seen Vistek's online used/specials product info?) with no real difference in delivery costs (I 'live near Halifax) why wouldn't you buy from them?
I want a retailer to earn my business
Do you happen to know if this differential is due to mail order vs. walk-in sales or just one retailer vs. another?
Henry's and Vistek's do pay salaries and other overhead related to doing walk-in sales. I find it pretty valuable to have a local retail outlet to try before I buy, see various camera bodies side by side, etc., so I am willing to pay a certain increment to support that, but I'm in no position to know how much increment is fair and how much is profiteering. I guess one indicator would be what other walk-in retailers are selling cameras for vs. responsible on-line sellers like Adorama, B&H, etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Adorama & B&H have walk-in stores. Their online business is run no differently than Vistek's and Henry's. It's a simple combination of profiteering (retailer / wholesaler) and an unwillingness to adapt from a pre-internet 'closed' market where they were the only big retailers around - and when they could 'hide' the extra margin (vs. US retailers) with sales folks mumbling about FX rates and non-existent duties for people who didn't do the math/homework.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As a European I'm even more painfully aware of the ridiculous markups put on camera gear - and this was even when the US dollar was worth something. Nevertheless, it is impossible for anyone without insider information to really "do the math." While calculating import duties and VAT is, indeed, easy, that doesn't take into account the fact that labor, rent, storage space, tranportation, heating, electricity, internet connections, etc. are generally more expensive in Europe, as well.
I'm the first one to cry foul when comparing price list from B&H and a European retailer - hell, I gray-imported my 30D and lenses a year ago -, but it is disingenuous to only blame the retailers. They are getting the short end of the stick not only due to the massive volumes of B&H and Adorama, but also by the policies, taxation and rigidities of European (and appears Canadian) markets.
-
Adorama & B&H have walk-in stores. Their online business is run no differently than Vistek's and Henry's. It's a simple combination of profiteering (retailer / wholesaler) and an unwillingness to adapt from a pre-internet 'closed' market where they were the only big retailers around - and when they could 'hide' the extra margin (vs. US retailers) with sales folks mumbling about FX rates and non-existent duties for people who didn't do the math/homework.
When KEH or B&H can give you better prices w/ no duties, better new and used selection, more informed and responsive sales staff, better on-line info (ever seen Vistek's online used/specials product info?) with no real difference in delivery costs (I 'live near Halifax) why wouldn't you buy from them?
I want a retailer to earn my business
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I buy most everything in Canada at Aden Camera and usually come out ahead of US prices. I walk to the store, deal with the owner and am always treated very well. And, the service is terrific.
-
It probably depends on where in the chain the "rip off" is occurring, or mostly occurring. The truth is I wasn't intending to blame the retailer, although that's what my op suggested. I think it's more likely that it's the distributor when setting the "wholesale price". I think retail margins are probably as slim as economically reasonable. Certainly it probably makes sense to at least have a conversation with a local to see what's possible before going south, but I don't think Canon (or whoever) gives them much room to move.
Edit - so it looks like Cdn prices are in fact moving down... Henry's now has the 1ds3 at $8.2k, this am it was still at $9k.
-
I also live in Toronto and have purchased a significant amount of camera gear in the last year (I'm really just getting into photography).
B&H or Adorama + shipping + exchange + duty and taxes at customs is still often up to a 1/3 less than buying from Vistek or Henry's. Occasionally the savings have been even more ridiculous -- the difference on Nikon flash units was somewhere near 75% at one point last year.
-
I also live in Toronto and have purchased a significant amount of camera gear in the last year (I'm really just getting into photography).
B&H or Adorama + shipping + exchange + duty and taxes at customs is still often up to a 1/3 less than buying from Vistek or Henry's. Occasionally the savings have been even more ridiculous -- the difference on Nikon flash units was somewhere near 75% at one point last year.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149908\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't forget that CPS members get a further discount (on pro gear) and service by Canon as a CPS member has been exemplary since I switched to Canon gear and even a loaner while service is being done, for someone who makes a living with the tools, the "little" extra is worth every $.
I am as frugal as the next person, but sometimes buying locally has its benefits.
-
It probably depends on where in the chain the "rip off" is occurring, or mostly occurring. The truth is I wasn't intending to blame the retailer, although that's what my op suggested. I think it's more likely that it's the distributor when setting the "wholesale price". I think retail margins are probably as slim as economically reasonable. Certainly it probably makes sense to at least have a conversation with a local to see what's possible before going south, but I don't think Canon (or whoever) gives them much room to move.
Edit - so it looks like Cdn prices are in fact moving down... Henry's now has the 1ds3 at $8.2k, this am it was still at $9k.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=149904\")
"I don't think Canon (or whoever) gives them much room to move" !
Here's an interesting comparison.
The Canon.com webstore: BCI-6 ink tanks are US$11.95.
The Canon.ca webstore: BCI-6 ink tanks are CDN$15.99.
The inks come from Japan, so how do the dollars compare to the source cost of the ink, in Japanese Yen, since that's where they both come from.
[a href=\"http://www.x-rates.com/d/JPY/USD/hist2007.html]http://www.x-rates.com/d/JPY/USD/hist2007.html[/url] shows the US $ strenthened relative to the yen about 5% in August, so fewer Yen per US BCI-6 tank.
http://www.x-rates.com/d/JPY/CAD/hist2007.html (http://www.x-rates.com/d/JPY/CAD/hist2007.html) shows the CDN dollar weakened relative to the Yen starting in May, so Canon's Yen per Cdn BCI-6 increased.
Overall, Canon doesn't care and won't change it's prices. From North America, they get about the same Yen per ink tank throughout the year. But it sure makes it attractive to buy ink in large orders from the US.
Andy
-
Cdn vs. US prices
--------------------
This mornings Globe and Mail newspaper (Cdn) indicated that the Canadian Post Offices are overwhelmed with mail/internet orders from the US to Canada.
Maybe the local Canadian Camera stores will get it when they miss out on this years Xmas sales!!
I bought a 30mm prime lens for Xmas from Adorama at a discount of CDN$200.00 (US$208) over any Canadian store. Oh, and Adorama had the lens to me the next day while the local stores said they needed two weeks to get me one.
The book retailers are getting it. Typically you see first editions with both CDN and US pricing and the US pricing is about 30% cheaper. The bigger book retailers are selling at the US prices. I still think that is too much because most US book retailers will take 30% of the list price, but at least it is a move in the right direction.
Consumers always march with their feet when there is price disparity of this enormity. Remember retailers, 80% of the Canadian population is within 100 miles of the US border, i.e. a 2 hour car trip away!
-
Tim Gray wrote:
I think it's more likely that it's the distributor when setting the "wholesale price". I think retail margins are probably as slim as economically reasonable.
Combined with all the other excellent comments, these two sentences in particular put the matter into perspective for me.
My observation, going back to film days, has been that the price of most MF gear was dramatically lower in Canada and England than in the US, while the US prices are lower for 35mm and most digital cameras than in Europe. The obvious explanation is that each of the regional distributors of a given manufacturer - Nikon USA vs. Nikon Canada vs. Nikon Europe, for example - gets to set the wholesale price in its bailiwick.
-
When I took this issue up with someone senior at Henry's I was given two reasons which seem to me to go PART way to justifying the difference (as far as the retailer is concerned):
1 - there is no direct link from Canadian wholesaler to manufacturer - therefore Canadian
retailers have to deal with an wholesaler who has to deal with the US wholesaler. Thus
there is a double profit/cost element involved. This is said to be due to the relatively small
size of the Canadian market.
2 - there are extra legal obligations imposed by Canadian law on all levels of the supply chain
which create costs which have to be covered. Which may work in our favour as consumers.
To be fair you should add the need to cover the higher exchange rate involved in buying existing stock - though that would cut more ice if it worked the other way and retail prices only rose when existing stock was sold when the rates moved the other way !! And it does not apply where items are special order or waiting new stock (like the 1D mkIII).
Like others I have been pleasantly surprised by the speed and quality of service from B+H etc. but on expensive items - with higher downsides in the event of problems - I value the personal relationship which can be built up locally which can result in special consideration re service, exchanges and even special pricing. So cameras I buy in Toronto but - if I don't like the price difference after I have given my Toronto store the chance to do their best - peripherals and some lenses come from B+H.
That's my approach - but of course each to their own.
-
Rec'd this from Beau Photo (Vancouver) - http://www.beauphoto.com (http://www.beauphoto.com) - today as part of their monthly newsletter:
"A Strong Canadian $$ means Good News for You!
Prices are Dropping at Beau Photo.
The Canadian dollar’s recent parity with, then surpassing the US dollar, is providing greater savings for the Beau Photo customers. At this time we are adjusting the prices on all items that we buy from the US. This can mean savings for you of up to 25% ! Customers will also have to remember that even though many products come up from the “States”, we can not buy direct from all US manufacturers. Many Canadian companies hold the distribution rights to these products, and they dictate the prices that we pay for them, which is sometimes almost as much as what they are selling for in the US. We are working with these distributors. A few have been very quick on acting on the strong Canadian dollar, and others have not.
Daymen Marketing for example is offering instant rebates on Sekonic and Pocket wizard products, making them very competitive with the US prices. When you are comparing our prices with the US prices, please don’t forget we
often pay duty on items brought across the border and shipping costs are constantly going up and up. One last thing to consider if you are thinking of doing a little cross border shopping, especially on electronics, warranty repairs will have to be sent back to the place of purchase. Also companies like Nikon and Canon are refusing to repair cameras brought up from the US, directing people to send them to their US counterparts."
-
I love retailers and their BS scare tactics (sometimes).
Canon warranties are NA wide. Nikon's are country-specific. This is one reason I moved to Canon.
There are NO duties on camera gear - new or used. Just HST - but sometimes not even then, not all USPS items are hit by Customs, ALL couriers collective the taxes on ALL their shipment items.
'Brokerage Fees' are BS extra charges by UPS, etc - if shipped by USPS, no such fees. There are class action suits underway against UPS and FedEx over same.
Talking to Canon Canada directly - as long as you have the receipt showing the camera was bought new in NA - they will warranty work it.
An inquiry yesterday - 5D C$2700, from KEH new US$2100 say C$1900. Rebate checks that never show up matter little. The salesman was as PO'd as I was. Used they are< US$1800 (say C$1600) or so on the Street.
Loyalty is one thing, stupidity is something else entirely.
I have no doubt that the bulk of problem lies with the wholesalers, but if the retailers want to survive, they need to tell their wholesalers/MFGs to wake up and smell the coffee - before it gets bitter.
Rec'd this from Beau Photo (Vancouver) - http://www.beauphoto.com (http://www.beauphoto.com) - today as part of their monthly newsletter:
"A Strong Canadian $$ means Good News for You!
Prices are Dropping at Beau Photo.
The Canadian dollar’s recent parity with, then surpassing the US dollar, is providing greater savings for the Beau Photo customers. At this time we are adjusting the prices on all items that we buy from the US. This can mean savings for you of up to 25% ! Customers will also have to remember that even though many products come up from the “States”, we can not buy direct from all US manufacturers. Many Canadian companies hold the distribution rights to these products, and they dictate the prices that we pay for them, which is sometimes almost as much as what they are selling for in the US. We are working with these distributors. A few have been very quick on acting on the strong Canadian dollar, and others have not.
Daymen Marketing for example is offering instant rebates on Sekonic and Pocket wizard products, making them very competitive with the US prices. When you are comparing our prices with the US prices, please don’t forget we
often pay duty on items brought across the border and shipping costs are constantly going up and up. One last thing to consider if you are thinking of doing a little cross border shopping, especially on electronics, warranty repairs will have to be sent back to the place of purchase. Also companies like Nikon and Canon are refusing to repair cameras brought up from the US, directing people to send them to their US counterparts."
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150116\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
This is a very old thread but I need to vent somewhere.
Lula is a Canadian site and I know that Michael frequents Vistek, so this is not a rant against Vistek, Henrys is just as bad.
On the plus side, I think we are fortunate in that these stores, between them, offer a huge range of product, but on occasion their pricing is just insane and drives you to buy from the US, despite freight and brokerage fees etc.
On two recent purchases:
Capture NX2 -- $129 at B&H, $249 at Vistek !!
“Hahnemuhle” starter kit for canvas wraps -- $38 at Vistek, $6.71 at Lexjet and others in the US.
The latter one really riles me as this is a Canadian product to start with.
If we do not complain and make these differentials public, then the situation will get worse.
-
I've found that Lozeau Photo in Montreal www.lozeau.com is often very close to matching the US prices. And their service has been excellent, every time I've made a purchase through their website.
-
The way I beat the price difference is to purchase used here locally in Vancouver; this way I get to hold the product and evaluate it before money changes hands. I must bought a used 5D mk2 with three year warranty for cheaper than B&H, without the warranty; the camera was bought in June of 2010 and is warrantied until 2013. Most items I purchase are used now. Many in Toronto use our Buy and Sell forum, which you can find at Broadway Camera/Vancouver.
-
Here is a link to a web-site that compares pricing of various e-tailers (US & Canadian) for camera equipment: http://www.photoprice.ca/
I will buy from US or Canada (Toronto or Calgary Area stores) factoring in price/potential hassle. I am also in Toronto area, find Aden camera pricing the best (locally) and when I have bought big ticket items from them (Pacific Mall location) they have thrown in value-added extras that sweeten the deal even more
In terms of large ticket items if Canadian price is <10% higher than US mail order price (cost + shipping, broker fees, etc.) then it is (for me) a no-brainer I'll buy it here - if something wrong with the camera/lens it's simply a telephone call and drive back to the store, no shipping hassles/costs sending it back etc.. If price in Canada is 30% greater than US then I'm probably ordering from US (and in between it's case-by-case).
Smaller ticket items I am probably buying from stores up here just because S&H is probably (but not always) going to kill the savings.
What I have seen lately in the last year or two is that it is not as cut and dry that Canadian pricing is really over-priced versus US (yes - 1Ds IIII is overpriced in Can.). I have seen instances where Canadian pricing is lower than US for certain items, and for other items, Canadian pricing is much higher. This also seems to fluctuate over time.
However, where I have seen clear pricing levels that really hurt is in the smaller items (accessories) like batteries, battery grips, etc. Canon BP-511A batteries for my 40D are currently priced at $130 (Vistek) vs $45 (US - B&H) - approx. 3x the price. The LP-E6 batteries for 7D/5DMkII are $130 CDN vs $65 US (not quite as bad)
-
Vistek and Henry's must be blissfully unaware of the volume of business they lose when we buy online from Adorama and B&H. Or perhaps it is Canadians who are blissfully unaware of the bargains to be had online. But many people are hestitant to buy big ticket items online. I find Vistek/Henry's are competitive only with camera bodies - all other items and acccesories (especially lenses) are cheaper from B&H/Adorama. Just make sure you don't use a courier that charges rediculous brokerage fees.
-
I have been looking to get a replacement for the Z3100 GP PS. The Z3200 GP PS in the US is $3000 US with free ground shipping at Atlex. The price in Canada is $7300 plus Shipping.
There is something seriously wrong with the prices in Canada on the large format printers. I also, prices the Canon IPF8300 and there is the same difference in prices. I am thinking I will just import the printer.
Steven
http://www.friedmanphoto.com (http://www.friedmanphoto.com)
-
I can't speak for Henry's, but I have known Vistek to match prices with B&H and Adorama. However this is an informal policy so your mileage may vary. When I asked about price matching an EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro to Aden Camera, they said they usually will price match as long as the difference is with reason and their margin room. So if the price difference is about $100-200 I would definitely say check with them before buying online.
-
I have made several large purchases from the USA, B&H and MPEX. Prior to each purchase, I've gone into Vistek with my shopping list and ask for their most competitive quote. I then try to negotiate some additional relief as I wish to keep my dollars in Canadian hands. But the pricing simply does not match.
For example, I purchased some Elinchrom lighting and accessories about 2 years ago. Vistek was about $7500 and B&H was just over $5000 for the exact same products. After shipping, brokerage and taxes, I save well over $1,000. I can not justify giving away $1,000 for no real value in return. Especially, when Vistek is the distributor for Elinchrom in Canada.
I do purchase a lot of things from Vistek such as paper, inks, etc. I purchased my Epson 7880 and 3800 printers from them a while back and paid the premium as the shipping would have cost me a fortune. But Vistek (and Henry's) has to adjust their pricing or at least put pressure on their suppliers to adjust pricing to match the current fx rate. Or better yet, sell their products in $US currency, but that would be treason, i'm sure.
-
I just got my RS-80N3 remote from US two days before. and yes I bought my 5DII from US online last year.
the RS-80N3 in B&H is 46, plus hst, plus shipping, it's 61.
in Aden, the lowest price i can find in Canada so far, is 94.
I am paying the tax to my country so i feel nothing wrong.
Those local retailers, sorry i guess you dont care these deals and you dont care my business