Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Steve Stayton on October 04, 2007, 04:34:15 pm
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Looks like the Rollieflex branded version of the Hy6 will be shown at PhotoPlus Expo NYC:
http://www.imaginginsider.com/?p=60883 (http://www.imaginginsider.com/?p=60883)
http://www.cameratown.com/news/news.cfm/hurl/id|4494 (http://www.cameratown.com/news/news.cfm/hurl/id|4494)
This is the camera that is looking for someone to make a Phase One adapter plate. Or for Phase to get off the bench and sign a license with F&H.
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Looks like the Rollieflex branded version of the Hy6 will be shown at PhotoPlus Expo NYC:
http://www.imaginginsider.com/?p=60883 (http://www.imaginginsider.com/?p=60883)
http://www.cameratown.com/news/news.cfm/hurl/id|4494 (http://www.cameratown.com/news/news.cfm/hurl/id|4494)
This is the camera that is looking for someone to make a Phase One adapter plate. Or for Phase to get off the bench and sign a license with F&H.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143875\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was told by a phase dealer that phase will be exhibiting a back on this camera at the ny expo
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"Called the Rolleiflex Hy6, the new camera is a film-digital breakthrough that features a unique open system for high-end digital backs, but also 6x4.5 and 6x6 format film."
this does not sound like sinar and leaf only....but in the brochure they say "all sinar and some leaf backs.." i guess we will know more in a couple of weeks.....
i was always sure that phase would be on some incarnation of this camera....did not expect itto be so soon....
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This is the camera that is looking for someone to make a Phase One adapter plate.
Afaik, any digital back which fits onto a Sinar Hy6 will fit an AFi and a Rolleiflex Hy6 too, so it won't make a difference.
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Afaik, any digital back which fits onto a Sinar Hy6 will fit an AFi and a Rolleiflex Hy6 too, so it won't make a difference.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143887\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
afaik the Hy6 won't accept the leaf back and the Afi not the sinar....so it seems that the rolleiflex uses an adapter system to accept backs....anyway we will know more soon...
or maybe thierry or yaya have something to say here?
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Who is the importer/distributor of Rollei in the U.S.? Sinar or D.S.M.? Both seem to have claimed exclusive rights to sell Rollei professional products in the U.S. market.
Will lenses and accessories for the Hy6 be distributed by Leaf, Sinar and D.S.M.?
Who will provide service on the "Rollei" Hy6?
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afaik the Hy6 won't accept the leaf back and the Afi not the sinar....so it seems that the rolleiflex uses an adapter system to accept backs....anyway we will know more soon...
or maybe thierry or yaya have something to say here?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=143894\")
Thierry already has. See posts 16 and 17 in this thread:
[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19705]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=19705[/url]
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Who is the importer/distributor of Rollei in the U.S.? Sinar or D.S.M.? Both seem to have claimed exclusive rights to sell Rollei professional products in the U.S. market.
Will lenses and accessories for the Hy6 be distributed by Leaf, Sinar and D.S.M.?
Who will provide service on the "Rollei" Hy6?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143898\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sinar has worldwide rights to distribution with the exception of 2 countries I believe. Japan and the UK.
D.S.M. does not have rights in the US although claiming they do. What they are currently doing is bringing in Grey Market product thru Japan and claiming to be the US importer. Any purchase from them would probably be dicey from a warranty perspective and involve a camera being sent back to Japan.
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My understanding is different: Sinar isn't planning to sell the Rolleiflex branded version of the Hy6, so F&H can sell their camera wherever they want through other channels. What they cannot do is license the Hy6 firmware to a digital backmaker. That right is a Jenoptik exclusive. So there is nothing "gray market" about the Horseman representation of the Rolleiflex Hy6 in the US or wherever they are selling their stuff when Sinar is not doing it.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=143949\")
It isn't very clear for any potential buyer. Looking at the Franke & Heidecke web-site, they appear to be a contract manufacturer with no mention of where to buy products. [a href=\"http://www.franke-heidecke.net/]F&H Link[/url]
The Sinar Bron web-site makes no mention of Rollei products anywhere. Sinarbron Link (http://www.sinarbron.com/)
D.S.M. seems to be the only one with a web-site talking about U.S. distribution, but via Japan. DSM Link (http://www.dsmww.com/)
Confusing!
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My understanding is different: Sinar isn't planning to sell the Rolleiflex branded version of the Hy6, so F&H can sell their camera wherever they want through other channels. What they cannot do is license the Hy6 firmware to a digital backmaker. That right is a Jenoptik exclusive. So there is nothing "gray market" about the Horseman representation of the Rolleiflex Hy6 in the US or wherever they are selling their stuff when Sinar is not doing it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143949\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you have the Rolleiflex Hy6 camera can you use it on any digital back? Also can you use firmware update from Sinar and Leaf?
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If you have the Rolleiflex Hy6 camera can you use it on any digital back? Also can you use firmware update from Sinar and Leaf?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143992\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The development of the Hy6 appears to have been a joint effort with contributions from Jenoptik, Sinar, Leaf and Franke & Heidecke. Sinar will sell a Sinar version. Leaf will sell a Leaf version. It looks like there will also be a Rollei branded version, but nothing appears online regarding distribution of the Rollei brand except from D.S.M..
So, I'm still confused. Will Leaf and Sinar and D.S.M. all provide sales of lenses and accessories for the Hy6? Are firmware upgrades to the Hy6 universal or specific to brand? Who services what?
I guess time will tell. Anyone know yet?
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Dear TechTalk,
I can tell you that Sinar will sell the Sinar branded Hy6 in the USA, through its official distributor, together with all lenses and accessories.
Service and support are of course also included in this service, as well as firmware updates, like for any "normal" product.
Best regards,
Thierry
The development of the Hy6 appears to have been a joint effort with contributions from Jenoptik, Sinar, Leaf and Franke & Heidecke. Sinar will sell a Sinar version. Leaf will sell a Leaf version. It looks like there will also be a Rollei branded version, but nothing appears online regarding distribution of the Rollei brand except from D.S.M..
So, I'm still confused. Will Leaf and Sinar and D.S.M. all provide sales of lenses and accessories for the Hy6? Are firmware upgrades to the Hy6 universal or specific to brand? Who services what?
I guess time will tell. Anyone know yet?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144259\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear TechTalk,
I can tell you that Sinar will sell the Sinar branded Hy6 in the USA, through its official distributor, together with all lenses and accessories.
Service and support are of course also included in this service, as well as firmware updates, like for any "normal" product.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144320\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
I have every confidence that Sinar will provide excellent support and service for the Sinar Hy6. What I've noticed, however, is that there is little or no mention of lenses or accessories on either Sinar or Leaf web-sites. Any information on distribution of Rollei branded products is very hard to find as well.
Thanks for your response and best wishes to you.
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I believe this information shall be available as soon as the camera is ready to ship.
best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I have every confidence that Sinar will provide excellent support and service for the Sinar Hy6. What I've noticed, however, is that there is little or no mention of lenses or accessories on either Sinar or Leaf web-sites. Any information on distribution of Rollei branded products is very hard to find as well.
Thanks for your response and best wishes to you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144335\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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this is just amazing...i am pretty sure there has never been a camera that has been announced with so much confusion....just do a search on this forum....and misinformation.....
afaik sinar was supposed to be the sole distributer for rollei in the US! and now this! i really ownder who makes the desicions with whatever company owns/builds/...the Hy6....thierry comes here and tells us that there will not be a rolleiflex Hy6 sold in the US, because i am sure that is what sinar was told by F&H and here it is before sinar can put it on the market!
anyway...i think we all knew that phase would at some point get thier backs on the Hy6, but like someone else pointed out here: firmware updates? service?(i am sure that onick with rollei/hensel in NJ is getting training on it as we speak, so i am not worried) warranty? distribution?
this fits just in with the rest of the great rollei history of great marketing fiaskos....
and yes i can't wait to get my hands on one....because it will be the best camera...
ps: did anyone bother to check out the ridiculous pricelist on the website...the lenses are even more then on the sinar pricelist....most of which can be had quite a bit cheaper from "old" rollei dealers...crazyness!
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I'm confused!
Is Franke & H then ignoring Jenoptik by selling through DSM in the US or is it something that Jenoptik endorse?
If not then this will only worsen relationship between the companies. Is that not potenitally disasterous for the Hy6 project?
From DSM...
'Direct Source Marketing, www.dsmww.com the U.S distributor for medium and large format Horseman and Rolleiflex professional cameras and Rodenstock filters, will be the sole source for the new camera and all Rollei products in the U.S. ranging from prisms, lenses and monorail systems. The products are available at leading retailers.'
Sole source? No mention of Sinar or Leaf?
I don't geddit.
Jo S.x
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Sole source? No mention of Sinar or Leaf?
Why would a Rolleiflex dealer mention Sinar or Leaf? I don't get it.
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Why would a Rolleiflex dealer mention Sinar or Leaf? I don't get it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No offense, but as great as this camera might be, this is the exact reason why I'd never come close to considering it for a tool that I make money with. Here we are, two weeks or so from when it's supposedly unveiled, and they don't even know how to communicate with the public on who is going to sell it.
Imagine it going down. Imagine needing a part for a job. Berlin's gotta call Switzerland, who's gotta turn around and call another country. And there you are, holding a camera that doesn't work, and your job is in three days.
These guys seem to be great engineers, but exceedingly poor SELLERS of cameras. As if, the only thing that mattered was designing it and manufacturing the first one, and then the thrill is over.
Again, this seems like The Ultimate Dentist Camera -- if it goes down on a Sunday morning, when the guy is going to take a leisurely walk thru the countryside and "snap some snaps", then, well, what a shame. But nothing is really lost, because he goes back to being a dentist tomorrow morning, and he still gets paid.
No thanks. If it's this confusing right out of the gate, wait til the real problems begin, when real photographers, (real customers), start demanding answers on delivery.
No, no thanks at all. This camera's marketing makes Phase One seem like true marketing geniuses.
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Mark, isn't it clear that the Sinar Hy6 will be available through the existing Sinar network? And the Leaf AFi through the Leaf network? etc. How is that any different to buying another brand through another network?
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Dear Mark,
no offense too, and with all due respect, I think you cannot just bash on a product and company, being it Sinar or F&H or else. Berlin is gonna call nobody, nor is Sinar goona call another country. We are mature companies and people who might not always have all right, but we know what we are doing, in opposition to your suggestion.
Let things come and judge then.
Thanks for your understanding,
Thierry
No offense, but as great as this camera might be, this is the exact reason why I'd never come close to considering it for a tool that I make money with. Here we are, two weeks or so from when it's supposedly unveiled, and they don't even know how to communicate with the public on who is going to sell it.
Imagine it going down. Imagine needing a part for a job. Berlin's gotta call Switzerland, who's gotta turn around and call another country. And there you are, holding a camera that doesn't work, and your job is in three days.
These guys seem to be great engineers, but exceedingly poor SELLERS of cameras. As if, the only thing that mattered was designing it and manufacturing the first one, and then the thrill is over.
Again, this seems like The Ultimate Dentist Camera -- if it goes down on a Sunday morning, when the guy is going to take a leisurely walk thru the countryside and "snap some snaps", then, well, what a shame. But nothing is really lost, because he goes back to being a dentist tomorrow morning, and he still gets paid.
No thanks. If it's this confusing right out of the gate, wait til the real problems begin, when real photographers, (real customers), start demanding answers on delivery.
No, no thanks at all. This camera's marketing makes Phase One seem like true marketing geniuses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144456\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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... but we know what we are doing...
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144489\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Famous last words.
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Dear Paul,
as you probably know, things and decisions sometimes change in life as well as in busines. Yes, I did tell that the Hy6 would be sold by Sinar in the whole world, and yes I did say here that the Rollei branded model would be sold only in Japan, Russia and China. That was the information months back.
Now let things come and see. Fact is that Sinar is selling the Hy6 worldwide and in this nothing has changed. I don't see therefore anything so different and dramatic.
Best regards,
Thierry
this is just amazing...i am pretty sure there has never been a camera that has been announced with so much confusion....just do a search on this forum....and misinformation.....
afaik sinar was supposed to be the sole distributer for rollei in the US! and now this! i really ownder who makes the desicions with whatever company owns/builds/...the Hy6....thierry comes here and tells us that there will not be a rolleiflex Hy6 sold in the US, because i am sure that is what sinar was told by F&H and here it is before sinar can put it on the market!
anyway...i think we all knew that phase would at some point get thier backs on the Hy6, but like someone else pointed out here: firmware updates? service?(i am sure that onick with rollei/hensel in NJ is getting training on it as we speak, so i am not worried) warranty? distribution?
this fits just in with the rest of the great rollei history of great marketing fiaskos....
and yes i can't wait to get my hands on one....because it will be the best camera...
ps: did anyone bother to check out the ridiculous pricelist on the website...the lenses are even more then on the sinar pricelist....most of which can be had quite a bit cheaper from "old" rollei dealers...crazyness!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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ps: did anyone bother to check out the ridiculous pricelist on the website...the lenses are even more then on the sinar pricelist....most of which can be had quite a bit cheaper from "old" rollei dealers...crazyness!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But "we know what we're doing", Thierry says. And you got to take his words at face value.
With the Canon 1Ds Mark III on the right, the Hasselblad H3D Mark 2 on the left, and the Nikon D3 (and possibly, a D3x) in the middle, the Hy6 in all its variations is soon going to be a moot point anyway. As Mark says, the Ultimate Dentist Camera.
Thierry, the market decides. Let's hope you're right.
I'm not sanguine.
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Berlin is gonna call nobody, nor is Sinar goona call another country. We are mature companies and people who might not always have all right, but we know what we are doing, in opposition to your suggestion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144489\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The last story that I heard about USA Sinar was that there was a woman who ran the parts department out of her garage somewhere in the midwest. If you caught her at home, you might be able to do the deal. Uh, not my cup of tea.
I think a lot of this too is somewhat of a cultural gap. Maybe a slight difference in the USA mindset versus the Europe mindset. I have a friend that was born in Germany, but lived here for many years, and he's just now moved back to Germany. He described to me the difference in trying to buy a car there, versus in the US. He said, in Germany, you might go to the showroom and ask to drive a car. The salesman might say, "Oh, you have to make an appointment for that, how about a week from Thursday?". So then, ten days later, you come back and drive the car, and you like it. You then have to set another appointment to come back and do the money part. And then maybe another appointment after that to actually take delivery.
Here in the US, the chain-smoking salesman sits out front of the dealership with his binoculars, waiting for Fresh Meat to drive up in the parking area. Before you're out of your car, he's got his hand extended, and he's slapping you on the back, complimenting your wife, and offering Little Tommy a cherry sucker. You find a car you like, and they'll trip all over themselves to have you sold a car within the hour, and you drive it home that night.
(Actually, thinking about it now, I kinda prefer the German method, due to the quality of Car Salesmen that I've met over the years, but this does not support my argument at this particular time).
I just think the USA method is to "give me the information, keep it simple, make it fast, and let's do the deal, and don't screw me". And when there's a job on the table, as a commercial photographer, the last thing that I want to hear is, "The part is out of stock; we must order it from Zurich, or Berlin, or _ _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank with any European city)". My fear is any answer I'd hear from that question, in any language, would translate into "eight to twelve weeks, let's hope".
All I know is, the USA world is speeding up, and NO client wants to hear No for an answer. No matter the reason.
To be frank, I mildly follow the Hype6 discussions. Maybe it WILL be a great camera. But like I (and others) have stated, there has never been so much confusion around a new product in the history of MF photography. Is that the customer's fault? Do all these companies that are in bed together have a chance to clear up the confusion? Yes. Are they doing it? Hmm.
Just one opinion.
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The last story that I heard about USA Sinar was that there was a woman who ran the parts department out of her garage somewhere in the midwest. If you caught her at home, you might be able to do the deal. Uh, not my cup of tea.
Well Mark,
I can tell you that the statement you make above is utterly ridiculous. I worked for Sinar Bron for 4 years, until this past July.
The main and ONLY office is in Edison, NJ and currently has 4 repair technicians. Parts are fully stocked and available.
There are independent authorized repair facilities around the country. Due to the age of digital many of these repairmen of mechanical cameras have disappeared or are much smaller operations. I can say it is possible that one of these repair facilities does not have a given part at a given time. But they are NOT the factory repair facilities in the US.
Matt LaPointe
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Yes, the market decides, you are right. So I don't understand why some people are such bothered and bash a product or a person standing for it.
I thank you for the "moot" and "dentist camera" words.
Respect is all.
Best regards,
Thierry
But "we know what we're doing", Thierry says. And you got to take his words at face value.
With the Canon 1Ds Mark III on the right, the Hasselblad H3D Mark 2 on the left, and the Nikon D3 (and possibly, a D3x) in the middle, the Hy6 in all its variations is soon going to be a moot point anyway. As Mark says, the Ultimate Dentist Camera.
Thierry, the market decides. Let's hope you're right.
I'm not sanguine.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Mark,
I can assure that you can buy a car in 1/2 a day in Switzerland, with a test drive and even drive home with it the very same half day (and even without paying one cent that same day!). I did it with the 3 cars I owed there. And I guess this is the same in Germany.
Best regards,
Thierry
The last story that I heard about USA Sinar was that there was a woman who ran the parts department out of her garage somewhere in the midwest. If you caught her at home, you might be able to do the deal. Uh, not my cup of tea.
I think a lot of this too is somewhat of a cultural gap. Maybe a slight difference in the USA mindset versus the Europe mindset. I have a friend that was born in Germany, but lived here for many years, and he's just now moved back to Germany. He described to me the difference in trying to buy a car there, versus in the US. He said, in Germany, you might go to the showroom and ask to drive a car. The salesman might say, "Oh, you have to make an appointment for that, how about a week from Thursday?". So then, ten days later, you come back and drive the car, and you like it. You then have to set another appointment to come back and do the money part. And then maybe another appointment after that to actually take delivery.
Here in the US, the chain-smoking salesman sits out front of the dealership with his binoculars, waiting for Fresh Meat to drive up in the parking area. Before you're out of your car, he's got his hand extended, and he's slapping you on the back, complimenting your wife, and offering Little Tommy a cherry sucker. You find a car you like, and they'll trip all over themselves to have you sold a car within the hour, and you drive it home that night.
(Actually, thinking about it now, I kinda prefer the German method, due to the quality of Car Salesmen that I've met over the years, but this does not support my argument at this particular time).
I just think the USA method is to "give me the information, keep it simple, make it fast, and let's do the deal, and don't screw me". And when there's a job on the table, as a commercial photographer, the last thing that I want to hear is, "The part is out of stock; we must order it from Zurich, or Berlin, or _ _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank with any European city)". My fear is any answer I'd hear from that question, in any language, would translate into "eight to twelve weeks, let's hope".
All I know is, the USA world is speeding up, and NO client wants to hear No for an answer. No matter the reason.
To be frank, I mildly follow the Hype6 discussions. Maybe it WILL be a great camera. But like I (and others) have stated, there has never been so much confusion around a new product in the history of MF photography. Is that the customer's fault? Do all these companies that are in bed together have a chance to clear up the confusion? Yes. Are they doing it? Hmm.
Just one opinion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks Matt to put this right!
This is the problem with "I've heard ....".
Best regards,
Thierry
Well Mark,
I can tell you that the statement you make above is utterly ridiculous. I worked for Sinar Bron for 4 years, until this past July.
The main and ONLY office is in Edison, NJ and currently has 4 repair technicians. Parts are fully stocked and available.
There are independent authorized repair facilities around the country. Due to the age of digital many of these repairmen of mechanical cameras have disappeared or are much smaller operations. I can say it is possible that one of these repair facilities does not have a given part at a given time. But they are NOT the factory repair facilities in the US.
Matt LaPointe
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144499\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I can say that all of the view camera manufacturers that we sell have varying degrees of infrastructure. I won't name the lower ends of the rung. We are authorized for nearly all of them. Sinar is and has been by far our most sold view camera brand for decades. The biggest reason - outside of the excellence of the product - is that the infrastructure that Sinar possesses in terms of staff, repair facilities and available inventories dwarfs their competitors.
The Hy6 is certainly a venture in a different direction for Sinar, and it will be a challenge. As dealers, we have tried to help make them aware of the challenges that exist in the medium format world, and we are hopefull they are up to it. Regardless, while inventory on the shelf isn't necessarily 100% guaranteed, whatever we can't get immediately is typically shipped within 1 to 2 weeks, and these instances are relatively rare.
The fact that Sinar has already launched a promotional Hy6/eMotionLV special bundle that includes a Free 5 YEAR Hot Swap Warranty (good through December 31, 2007) bodes well for their committment and capability in supporting the product.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Thanks Matt to put this right!
This is the problem with "I've heard ....".
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just realized that Mark might have mixed up Sinar with Arca Swiss.
Arca Swiss is imported by a woman out of Chicago, who is a relation of someone at the Swiss Consulate here. She has been an importer for 10+ years now and yes she is very hard to get a hold of. She inventoried the US stock out of her garage on the North Side of the City.
However their repair is done by Precision Camera Works here in the Chicago area and they are reputable and stock parts.
The problem with Arca Swiss at one time was getting accesories. I don't know how consistent their distribution is in the US currently.
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mark....you should know better then that...sinar is and was the most respected 4x5 and 8x10 studio camera for the last ? forever? so i would not worry....
and that sinar announcement beats anything and everything by a mile...5 years with 24 replacement? that is insane! tha is what i want! btw: does that include the camera as well? that would be the real killer!
but all that does not solve the problem we are really talking about....how confusing is that to begin with: ONE camera with (for now) 3 different names on it, from (for now 3) different distributers....again just do a search here and let your jaw drop by reading all the confusion and misinformation going around...and neiter sinar, leaf nor F&H or jenoptic really does anythng about it...honestly it is not good for a product to come with a 3 page explaination on who, where, how and when designs, builds, distributes, owns and in the end takes care of it.....this does not go over well with consumers.....
consumers want all in one packages with "mega focus" and "worlds first and best" labels.....which is why dentists these days have H3Ds....they don't even know what the Hy6 is and even less where to get it.....call a distributer? i want ot walk into a store and buy the toy!
yes..i still want the Hy6 and the deal: Hy6/emotion75/lens/90finder+5years/24 hour at 32000 should make everybody looking into a system right now seriously consider this.....but somehow i don't know.....what does leaf say about this? how come they don't offer that? will they? will the rolleiflex Hy6 partner with phase? bth thierry and yaya have been putting their hands in the fire, saying it won't happen.....turns out now, this could totally be on the table....which would totally undermine all "marketing" that was done up to now on sinar and leaf's part.....
i guess just having the best quality does not work anymore...listening sinar?
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Paul,
I did not say that exactly, but that Sinar will not do an adapter for Phase backs, neither for Hasselblad, and that they are not part of the Hy6 project.However, I said also that nobody can stop them to make their own adapter.
Best regards,
Thierry
will the rolleiflex Hy6 partner with phase? bth thierry and yaya have been putting their hands in the fire, saying it won't happen.....turns out now, this could totally be on the table....which would totally undermine all "marketing" that was done up to now on sinar and leaf's part.....
i guess just having the best quality does not work anymore...listening sinar?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144530\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The last story that I heard about USA Sinar was that there was a woman who ran the parts department out of her garage somewhere in the midwest. If you caught her at home, you might be able to do the deal. Uh, not my cup of tea.
I think a lot of this too is somewhat of a cultural gap. Maybe a slight difference in the USA mindset versus the Europe mindset. I have a friend that was born in Germany, but lived here for many years, and he's just now moved back to Germany. He described to me the difference in trying to buy a car there, versus in the US. He said, in Germany, you might go to the showroom and ask to drive a car. The salesman might say, "Oh, you have to make an appointment for that, how about a week from Thursday?". So then, ten days later, you come back and drive the car, and you like it. You then have to set another appointment to come back and do the money part. And then maybe another appointment after that to actually take delivery.
Here in the US, the chain-smoking salesman sits out front of the dealership with his binoculars, waiting for Fresh Meat to drive up in the parking area. Before you're out of your car, he's got his hand extended, and he's slapping you on the back, complimenting your wife, and offering Little Tommy a cherry sucker. You find a car you like, and they'll trip all over themselves to have you sold a car within the hour, and you drive it home that night.
(Actually, thinking about it now, I kinda prefer the German method, due to the quality of Car Salesmen that I've met over the years, but this does not support my argument at this particular time).
I just think the USA method is to "give me the information, keep it simple, make it fast, and let's do the deal, and don't screw me". And when there's a job on the table, as a commercial photographer, the last thing that I want to hear is, "The part is out of stock; we must order it from Zurich, or Berlin, or _ _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank with any European city)". My fear is any answer I'd hear from that question, in any language, would translate into "eight to twelve weeks, let's hope".
All I know is, the USA world is speeding up, and NO client wants to hear No for an answer. No matter the reason.
To be frank, I mildly follow the Hype6 discussions. Maybe it WILL be a great camera. But like I (and others) have stated, there has never been so much confusion around a new product in the history of MF photography. Is that the customer's fault? Do all these companies that are in bed together have a chance to clear up the confusion? Yes. Are they doing it? Hmm.
Just one opinion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But we still can discus where are built the better cars ..... and who`s selling more, more so in proportion to the size of the countries.
but i did not understood all the hysteria about the HY6 some months ago , as it would be the first and only medium format camera for digital , and now, one time more, i dont understand all the spaculacions in this post, nor before the long discussions how bad it might be that there is no 28mm. probably the camera will be a success with so much attention given to it .
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I am speaking for Sinar, not for F&H or else.
Best regards,
Thierry
Famous last words.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144491\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thank goodness that there are amateur [from wikipedia: The word comes from French, and can be translated as "lover of", reflecting the amateur's motivation to work as a result of a love or passion for a particular activity.] photographers that appreciate the efforts made by manufacturers like Sinar, Leaf, Phase One, Hasselblad, Rollei, Mamiya and many others. Manufacturers that have many people in their operations that also love the art and science of photography. Manufacturers that have struggled to stay in business, to deliver a higher quality product for a small market, in an age where digital technology has made "economy of scale" in production costs vastly greater than they ever were before. Yes, bless those amateurs that can afford to appreciate the unique esoteric tools that others rely on to make their living. Without them, some of those tools would be even more expensive than they are now–if they could exist in the market at all.
Those amateurs, that some condescendingly think of as sheep being lead around by clever marketing, make it possible for the small volume manufacturers to stay alive. And by keeping them alive, provide additional opportunity to make sneering remarks about the efforts of these manufacturers to develop and market new technologies and products.
You have questions about technology, features, marketing, business decisions–ask them. You have criticisms or praises–make them. But the amount of disrespect and cynicism that I sometimes see directed at manufacturers, their products or the people that enjoy using them is disheartening at times, to say the least.
Just my little rant for the day.
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"give me the information, keep it simple, make it fast, and let's do the deal, and don't screw me".[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think this is a dream situation for a salesman, and why some people get "screwed over"
My fear is any answer I'd hear from that question, in any language, would translate into "eight to twelve weeks, let's hope".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thankfully we have a great customer/consumer protective legislation where I live, when you purchase something as a consumer you get at lest 2 years (most ofthen 5 years) of protection from faulty fabrication or other product faults/defects.
The salesman has two tries to repair or replace the defective product, if not you can demand your money back. If the salesman is not able to repair within reasonable time (counted in weeks, not months) you are entitled to a loaner of the same type product/quality. If the salesman can not provide such a loaner, you have the right to get your money back.
This basically means if the answer is "you have to wait eight to twelve weeks..." on a reasonably new product you have a dealer in a lot of trouble standing in front of you
To me what is certain, is that Sinar/Leaf/F&H/Jenoptik have released information about their product too early, maybe in some hope to cut sales from HB and make people "wait for the better product".
-axel
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Hello,
last week at a photo fair here in Barcelona I handled the Leaf AFi and a full functional Sinar Hy6.
What a hell of a camera.
The shutter sound is distinct but rather on the quieter side, like a damped down rollei. The handling is good, the grip will make holding the camera great.
Changing orientation of the back will take only second, but a MamiyaRZ style revolving adapter would be useful. Control layout is simple and easy to understand. Good combination of digital and analog controls.
And boy what fun to look down on a screen and to compose an image...
Regards
Heinrich
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... and the same full functional Sinar Hy6 was demonstrated at the "Salon de la Photo" in Paris, as well as at a exhibition in St. Petersburg.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hello,
last week at a photo fair here in Barcelona I handled the Leaf AFi and a full functional Sinar Hy6.
What a hell of a camera.
The shutter sound is distinct but rather on the quieter sound, like a damped down rollei. The handling is good, the grip will make holding the camera great.
Changing orientation of the back will take only second, but a MamiyaRZ style revolving adapter would be useful. Control layout is simple and easy to understand. Good combination of digital and analog controls.
And boy what fun to look down on a screen and to compose an image...
Regards
Heinrich
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144562\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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... and the same full functional Sinar Hy6 was demonstrated at the "Salon de la Photo" in Paris, as well as at a exhibition in St. Petersburg.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144564\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The 5-year "hot swap" warranty promotion on camera, back and system components is also impressive service and added value.
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Why would a Rolleiflex dealer mention Sinar or Leaf? I don't get it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Apologies, I didn't really express myself very well.
What I meant to say was F&H are in the position of being an OEM manufacturer for Leaf and Sinar.
Therefore I think the situation would be clearer if they remained autonomous.
Deciding to try and sell themsleves in a large market like the US then puts them in competition with their partnered companies of Leaf and Sinar.
F&H have more to play with on profit margains so will they then be putting pressure on Leaf and Sinar to cut their prices to unfair levels?
That's what I meant to say. Not saying I am correct at all - I just think it might be a interesting discussion.
Jo S.x
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consumers want all in one packages with "mega focus" and "worlds first and best" labels.....which is why dentists these days have H3Ds....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144530\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, many thoughtful professionals have made well reasoned and considered decisions to purchase the H3D. Some see value and advantage in the technologies that Hasselblad has developed and in the integrated system approach. Hasselblad seems to be proud of their products, but I've never seen them show any sign of dismissive contempt for other products.
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Mark, your anti-Hy6 attacks are factually incorrect and bordering on libelous. Be careful.
You have already been corrected regarding your parts dealer story. Besides, the time taken for an out-of-stock part to come in is moot when you get a loaner unit.
Sinar's 5yr/24hour offer sounds very interesting to any working professional.
Btw, I bought a car in Germany once, and it was all done on the spot.
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Mark, your anti-Hy6 attacks are factually incorrect and bordering on libelous. Be careful.
You have already been corrected regarding your parts dealer story. Besides, the time taken for an out-of-stock part to come in is moot when you get a loaner unit.
Sinar's 5yr/24hour offer sounds very interesting to any working professional.
Btw, I bought a car in Germany once, and it was all done on the spot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You got to laugh at/with Mark - see the humor
my next door neighbor has a D200 and there will be three at any wedding and one for sale every airport in the world
That is better than any service backup agreement IF you shoot D200 and yours pops theres always one you can borrow
IMO sinar is not adressing becoming a thinking dentists camera, just a bit cooler than a regular dentist (who has the H3d)
It is critical for dentists to use the kit - means turnover - stock - rental - S/H - price pressue - market - and funding for future developments
Some one mentioned sinar having been the top guys in viewcams for 50 years - where is the top guy in typewriters now - what does heritage mean
The most critiacal thing is sinar need to get into the rental network
Who can affrod two and who can afford 24 hours of downtime in the middle of a shoot?
SMM
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The story about the running out of her garage is for Arca Swiss.
Take it from someone who owns an Arca Monolith and will most likely not buy another Arca product again.
Precision does a great job at repair, but if Bob doesn't have the part, it takes for ever. It took two to three months to get a repair done this past spring. For a part that could have fit in a padded fedex envelope and shipped over. But they had to wait for a shipment to come over.
On the Rollei front. The 6008 was my first complete pro system with two bodies and six lenses in the early and mid 90's. Back then there was a small repair shop in Jersey that did all the repair and getting any kind of accs or part was a pain to say the least. Rollei always produced the most amazing catalogs and well made products. Battery technology was not all that great when the 6008 came out and this is why I left Rollei back then. You had to use those damn rechargeables and they lasted between 100 and 300 shots depending on the battery and there was no consistency.
I think the concern for most of the people here are the Phase users that may want to use the Rollei. For the Leaf and Sinar user they are covered and both companies will offer a solid support. SinarBron in the US has always been there for parts and service.
The main problem is Rollei and what they will do to support the Rollei branded version of the Hy6. I hope that Rollei will sell a raw stripped down body as a back up. From the looks of the Rolei it will be the perfect camera for me. A cross between the RZ and the H1/2. With the ability to use the older Rollei Schneider lenses and then get a X-Act. It is a great all around camera.
With all the confusion on the Rollei brand with this new DSM company it will be tough. I though i had read somewhere that SinarBron would be the exclusive distributer for Rollei products in the US. If they decide not to promote the Rollei Hy6 to push their own agenda of the Sinar Hy6, then they are shooting themselves in the foot. If Sinarbron takes the helm to offer service, parts and support for the Hy6 all around then we have a winner. If not then the Sinar customer will be covered. MAC Group does a stellar job at service and support for their products.
If Briese, Rollei, Arca and Alpa got together and started a US distributor we would be set. With the kind of Service ans support that SinarBron and Mac Group provide.
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The story about the running out of her garage is for Arca Swiss.
Take it from someone who owns an Arca Monolith and will most likely not buy another Arca product again.
Precision does a great job at repair, but if Bob doesn't have the part, it takes for ever. It took two to three months to get a repair done this past spring. For a part that could have fit in a padded fedex envelope and shipped over. But they had to wait for a shipment to come over.
On the Rollei front. The 6008 was my first complete pro system with two bodies and six lenses in the early and mid 90's. Back then there was a small repair shop in Jersey that did all the repair and getting any kind of accs or part was a pain to say the least. Rollei always produced the most amazing catalogs and well made products. Battery technology was not all that great when the 6008 came out and this is why I left Rollei back then. You had to use those damn rechargeables and they lasted between 100 and 300 shots depending on the battery and there was no consistency.
I think the concern for most of the people here are the Phase users that may want to use the Rollei. For the Leaf and Sinar user they are covered and both companies will offer a solid support. SinarBron in the US has always been there for parts and service.
The main problem is Rollei and what they will do to support the Rollei branded version of the Hy6. I hope that Rollei will sell a raw stripped down body as a back up. From the looks of the Rolei it will be the perfect camera for me. A cross between the RZ and the H1/2. With the ability to use the older Rollei Schneider lenses and then get a X-Act. It is a great all around camera.
With all the confusion on the Rollei brand with this new DSM company it will be tough. I though i had read somewhere that SinarBron would be the exclusive distributer for Rollei products in the US. If they decide not to promote the Rollei Hy6 to push their own agenda of the Sinar Hy6, then they are shooting themselves in the foot. If Sinarbron takes the helm to offer service, parts and support for the Hy6 all around then we have a winner. If not then the Sinar customer will be covered. MAC Group does a stellar job at service and support for their products.
If Briese, Rollei, Arca and Alpa got together and started a US distributor we would be set. With the kind of Service ans support that SinarBron and Mac Group provide.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144605\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Rick,
Please take this with the complete humor that it is meant. Saying Briese, Rollei, Arca and Alba getting together would be great is kind of like a photographic manufacturer fantasy pool, or arguing whether Superman or Batman would win in a fight. You have to remember that they are all individual companies and on some levels compete for the same market elsewhere.
DSM is owned by Tosh Komamura, who also owns Horseman. Which is why DSM is the mechanism to distribute horseman and and try and move more Rollei in the US. I am sure DSM's efforts also have a bit more urgency in trying to go toe to toe with Sinar, because of their long standing competition in the view camera market.
All 4 of those companies have suffered from weak distribution in the US. Many reasons including marketing, quality control problems, and just plain not understanding the US market. It is much harder than you expect to create a distributor that does it "RIGHT". If it was there would be a few hundred more brands in the US than there currently are. Many quality products have come and gone just because the importer could not get it together.
F&H did put out a press release last year that Sinar would be the worldwide distributor of all Rollei products with the exception of the UK and Japan due to previous distribution agreements. Obviously that has been muddled now and I am pretty certain there is more legal wrangling going on behind the scenes than we know. I don't think you can expect Sinar Bron to become the warranty center and repair center for all Hy6 variants. They are just an importer of goods into this country. They are owned by 3 individual manufacturers (Broncolor, Sinar and Foba) but are independent as a business entity. They have to buy parts and eat the cost of service just like any other importer.
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For the record, my comments are well-intentioned. My intention too is to flush out some more cold truth about the past performance of the companies involved in this venture, so I can know whether to completely write them off or not. My initial gut feeling is not good at all.
From afar, when I read about the three companies who are cutting up the Hype6 pie, I get this mental image of a very well-dressed, three-headed technician, with his white lab coat, and his engineering degree. Like some mythological character from a Greek tragedy, (except he's much better dressed). This giant figure is lumbering towards the marketplace, but as he approaches, one of the three heads begin to make snide comments to the other heads. Before long, all three heads are in full battle with each other, and they haven't even reached the Town Square yet. Just before it enters Main Street, the three heads are spewing arrows at the other heads, and the giant figure falls head-first into the Hardware Store window and dies a quick death. It killed itself, before it ever got to the party.
As a guy who's had a MF camera go down on him, in the middle of an advertising job, Fear is my middle name sometimes, with these cameras and backs. It's not a happy thing to admit, but when there's money on the table, and your neck is on the line, you need something you can count on. I keep two bodies and two Phase backs, and multiple lenses in my kit at all times. The thought of a "24 hour loaner" is a total joke. What happens when the thing goes down at 9:15am on Day One of a two day shoot? Do I eat the expenses for that Day One? No, I pull out my second body/back, and keep working.
The "24 hour loaner" is fine for the Dentist, because his goes down on a Saturday morning, and tomorrow's sunrise also calls for sunshine, so he's fine with the 24 hour loaner.
Many people have made good points in this thread. You think I'm being alarmist/libelous? Read the other comments. I stand by every word, (except the Arca craziness).
Read this: NO ONE WANTS CONFUSION. This Hype6 came out of the gate way too early, hoping that everyone would keep their money in their pockets. Now, they are paying the price. Months of contradictions; no real information or reliable pricing anywhere. They should have kept their mouths shut, just like Canon does. Do you see confusion in the Canon camp? Or, for that matter, even Phase?
When there's a fifty to sixty thousand dollar investment to make, and your reputation's on the line, Confusion should not be the Appetizer. That's all I'm saying. Not when there's a 1ds3 right around the corner, and Hasselblad is kicking ass. These are very expensive, competitive times, and no one wants to write a check for the wrong system. (Trust me, I've done it). It's way too much trouble, and way too expensive, to switch, later on, especially at the price of the Rollei lenses alone.
That's all I'm saying. Don't blame the messenger.
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Dear Mark,
I do not want to argue with you. I'm just thinking that it is too difficult a job. But I am very much asking myself what kind of experience make you say all this about Sinar and the Hy6. We are going our way, we don't need to be the second or the third head on a 2-feeted giant. We have our own legs for this. I personnaly wish and am convinced of the success of this camera, and not only as a "dentist" one.
Now it all depends what is meant with "success", and you seem to link it exclusively with its success in the US. May I simply remind that the US is one market from many others, and not necessarily smaller ones. This does by no means suggest that the US are not important for us, but simply that there is another part of the world existing and as well important.
As for the US market, we (understand Sinar) will give it the necessary attention and support the product like we have always done it and which has made our reputation as a leading and trustful company.
Best regards,
Thierry
For the record, my comments are well-intentioned. My intention too is to flush out some more cold truth about the past performance of the companies involved in this venture, so I can know whether to completely write them off or not. My initial gut feeling is not good at all.
From afar, when I read about all these companies who are cutting up the pie, I get this mental image of a very well-dressed, three-headed technician, with his white lab coat, and his engineering degree. Like some mythological character from a Greek tragedy, (except he's much better dressed). This giant figure is lumbering towards the marketplace, but as he approaches, one of the three heads begin to make snide comments to the other heads. Before long, all three heads are in full battle with each other, and they haven't even reached the Town Square yet. Just before it enters Main Street, the three heads are spewing arrows at the other heads, and the giant figure falls head-first into the Hardware Store window and dies a quick death. It killed itself, before it ever got to the party.
As a guy who's had a MF camera go down on him, in the middle of an advertising job, Fear is my middle name sometimes, with these cameras and backs. It's not a happy thing to admit, but when there's money on the table, and your neck is on the line, you need something you can count on. I keep two bodies and two Phase backs, and multiple lenses in my kit at all times. The thought of a "24 hour loaner" is a total joke. What happens when the thing goes down at 9:15am on Day One of a two day shoot? Do I eat the expenses for that Day One? No, I pull out my second body/back, and keep working.
The "24 hour loaner" is fine for the Dentist, because his goes down on a Saturday morning, and tomorrow's sunrise also calls for sunshine, so he's fine with the 24 hour loaner.
Many people have made good points in this thread. You think I'm being alarmist/libelous? Read the other comments. I stand by every word, (except the Arca craziness).
Read this: NO ONE WANTS CONFUSION. This Hype6 came out of the gate way too early, hoping that everyone would keep their money in their pockets. Now, they are paying the price. Months of contradictions; no real information or reliable pricing anywhere. They should have kept their mouths shut, just like Canon does. Do you see confusion in the Canon camp? Or, for that matter, even Phase?
When there's a fifty to sixty thousand dollar investment to make, and your reputation's on the line, Confusion should not be the Appetizer. That's all I'm saying. Not when there's a 1ds3 right around the corner, and Hasselblad is kicking ass. These are very expensive, competitive times, and no one wants to write a check for the wrong system. It's way too much trouble, and way too expensive, to switch, later on, especially at the price of the Rollei lenses alone.
That's all I'm saying. Don't blame the messenger.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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You got to laugh at/with Mark - see the humor
There are newcomers reading this forum every day, and they could read Mark's post and believe every word and repeat it elsewhere. That's how rumours start.
That is better than any service backup agreement IF you shoot D200 and yours pops theres always one you can borrow
But if a D200 were a good enough substitute then we'd all be using it in the first place. Besides, we could all finish a shoot with a D200, regardless of which camera broke down. This isn't a selling point for any particular camera.
It is critical for dentists to use the kit - means turnover - stock - rental - S/H - price pressue - market - and funding for future developments
True.
The most critiacal thing is sinar need to get into the rental network
In the US, perhaps. All the Euro photographers I know own their own kit. This may explain why some German companies underestimate the significance of the US rental market.
Who can affrod two and who can afford 24 hours of downtime in the middle of a shoot?
Who can afford not to have two?? If you happen to shoot in a studio all the time, only during business hours and there is a rental shop nearby, then great. But for any of us shooting in remote locations, or in the middle of the night, this doesn't help. You need a backup. I am so far from any medium format outlets that I had to double up not only on camera bodies but lenses as well. I am the only MFDB shooter in Estonia.
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Now it all depends what is meant with "success", and you seem to link it exclusively with its success in the US. May I simply remind that the US is one market from many others, and not necessarily smaller ones. This does by no means suggest that the US are not important for us, but simply that there is another part of the world existing and as well important.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144621\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I wish you the best of luck in your venture.
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Thanks Mark!
We certainly need it, since by definition a venture is risky. However, it is not an ad-venture and we are not running heads down into this.
Best regards,
Thierry
I wish you the best of luck in your venture.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144624\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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For the record, my comments are well-intentioned. My intention too is to flush out some more cold truth about the past performance of the companies involved in this venture
...by making an allegation which applied to another company not inolved in this project (Arca Swiss)?
The thought of a "24 hour loaner" is a total joke. What happens when the thing goes down at 9:15am on Day One of a two day shoot?
My understanding of the 24 hour warranty is that you will receive your loaner within 24 hours, and for as long as it takes until your own unit is repaired. What could be better than this, apart from owning 2 camera bodies yourself? This applies across all brands so why raise it as a criticism of the Hy6 project?
Months of contradictions; no real information or reliable pricing anywhere. They should have kept their mouths shut, just like Canon does. Do you see confusion in the Canon camp? Or, for that matter, even Phase?
There are persistent rumours about Canon gear too. Heard the one about Canon getting into medium format? They were going to show a 22MP body last year and pulled out. What was that all about? What about the Phase/Mamiya partnership? What happened there? Deafening silence. Could Hasselblad have been any more confusing with its "full frame" marketing, and the H3D/28mm fiasco? All companies have been known to change direction or have published incorrect information at some point.
What really doesn't make sense about your arguments is that you are blaming three independent companies for not making a united statement. Why should they!! Sinar dealers will sell and service the Sinar Hy6. You can read about the camera on their website, and order one through their dealer network. What more do you want?
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My understanding of the 24 hour warranty is that you will receive your loaner within 24 hours, and for as long as it takes until your own unit is repaired. What could be better than this, apart from owning 2 camera bodies yourself? This applies across all brands so why raise it as a criticism of the Hy6 project?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=144627\")
I would suggest to any and all of these companies to drop the 24 hour loaner program, and to begin a program similar to what those APS/UPS/SurgeProtector companies do, or even the Kryptonite bicycle lock company does:
"We feel so strongly about the performance and reliability of our products that, If our camera or back ceases to function properly during one of your jobs, we'll write you a check for the full amount of all your Cancellation Fees and other Related Costs (including, your Creative Fee for that day)."
I wonder how many of these companies will step up to the plate and offer that? They need to feel the real ramifications of a back/body going down at 9am of a full day's long shoot.
Oh, the deafening silence.
[a href=\"http://www.kryptonitelock.com/OurStory/Legendary.aspx]http://www.kryptonitelock.com/OurStory/Legendary.aspx[/url]
https://www.belkin.com/claims/claims.asp (https://www.belkin.com/claims/claims.asp)
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... and what about the lab processing your tranies in C41, or vice-versa? Or the courier loosing the films on its way to the lab (happened to me)? Or a helicopter shooting worth Euro 5'000.- ++ and the films got scratched (happened to me as well)? My creative fee was worth nothing, but may be I didn't scream loud enough.
Thierry
"We feel so strongly about the performance and reliability of our products that, If our camera or back ceases to function properly during one of your jobs, we'll write you a check for the full amount of all your Cancellation Fees and other Related Costs (including, your Creative Fee for that day)."
Oh, the deafening silence.
http://www.kryptonitelock.com/OurStory/Legendary.aspx (http://www.kryptonitelock.com/OurStory/Legendary.aspx)
https://www.belkin.com/claims/claims.asp (https://www.belkin.com/claims/claims.asp)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144633\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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But if a D200 were a good enough substitute then we'd all be using it in the first place. Besides, we could all finish a shoot with a D200, regardless of which camera broke down. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144623\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The point I am making is that ALL MFDB have a pretty poor dealer network compared to Nikon or Canon
but in the UK I am happy I could get a Phase (a phase will cover my 54LV) or an H1 very quick buy or rent or borrow
In london there is much AFD2 and H1 rental and many dealers have used in stock
Most photographers know a local photogrpaher with similar kit who can help dig them out of the Sh*t within the hour
All this breeds confidence in a system - the HY6 need a reasonalbe market penetration to gain that confidence IMO
I should order a plate for my ProTL - that would give me backup
S
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The point I am making is that ALL MFDB have a pretty poor dealer network compared to Nikon or Canon
When I was Sweden and had just bought a new Canon body which was out of calibration, I took it to the nearest canon service centre and it took eight weeks! Disaster. Size is no substitute for quality.
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When I was Sweden and had just bought a new Canon body which was out of calibration, I took it to the nearest canon service centre and it took eight weeks! Disaster. Size is no substitute for quality.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=144644\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Absolutely - I dont really trust any one to do what they say
But I can get a new nikon pretty easy
And of course you can get four for the price of a DB
S
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Revolving adapters are in production.
Thierry
Hello,
last week at a photo fair here in Barcelona I handled the Leaf AFi and a full functional Sinar Hy6.
What a hell of a camera.
The shutter sound is distinct but rather on the quieter side, like a damped down rollei. The handling is good, the grip will make holding the camera great.
Changing orientation of the back will take only second, but a MamiyaRZ style revolving adapter would be useful. Control layout is simple and easy to understand. Good combination of digital and analog controls.
And boy what fun to look down on a screen and to compose an image...
Regards
Heinrich
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From afar, when I read about the three companies who are cutting up the Hype6 pie, I get this mental image of a very well-dressed, three-headed technician, with his white lab coat, and his engineering degree. Like some mythological character from a Greek tragedy, (except he's much better dressed). This giant figure is lumbering towards the marketplace, but as he approaches, one of the three heads begin to make snide comments to the other heads. Before long, all three heads are in full battle with each other, and they haven't even reached the Town Square yet. Just before it enters Main Street, the three heads are spewing arrows at the other heads, and the giant figure falls head-first into the Hardware Store window and dies a quick death. It killed itself, before it ever got to the party.
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lol
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i suppose it has to be more than boring to be here as rep. from a company, answering again and again since 9 months more or less exactly the same questions about a not released product,- and i cannot see that thierry has made such an unclear job here. at least i know in the meantime more about the HY& than about any other mf camera,- maybe except about my contax.
congratulations thierry. i think i would not be able to do this and to stay polite .....
mark, i for myself still do not understand the essence of your post against the hy/afi/rollei or the three companies. what you tell? i dont see the points.
24 hours loaner and 5 years is bad thing and just for dentists? because your back/body can break at 4 a.m.? yes it can do so,- and thats surely bad luck. buy two if it makes you feel saver- although: sad but true- two backs/bodies can break down also. not very likely, but also its not very likely that one back/body will break down exactly in a moment that you will not find any other solution than to cancel your shoot. of course it can happen as everything can happen. so what? what you will do if your TWO backs/bodys will break down during a **.***$ job? ( model costs and helicopters and agency costs included ? ) . no idea? me i have one: .... buy three.
i sometimes have two backs with me and sometimes i have not ( but than a 5d).
never i died from fear if going out with one and never i ruined one of my jobs, although having passed several breakdowns during my career, but mostly with mechanical things- unfortunately i still have just one shift camera with me, this still is by far my biggest risc but i take it brave. earlier or later this will ruin me..........
anyway what about the film days? in a church-shooting job my 4x5" technikardan felt to the floor and was totaly out of every adjustment after. did i had two 4x5" cameras with me? and two 72xl? ( which broke also ). no. i never owned two 4x5" cameras,- it was enough weight to carry around one setup. ( even i dont rememeber how the story went on but not very dramatic ).
so full of fear? what will you do if you get a a really bad stomach. or you break yourself a leg? or if you loose 1 EYE? OR 2 ? how you will take a flight ? ? i hope in a seperate machine as your assistant that he can finish the job if somthing bad will happen or vice-versa, each with one of the backs/bodies/lenses/laptops/cables/chargers.
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Apologies, I didn't really express myself very well.
What I meant to say was F&H are in the position of being an OEM manufacturer for Leaf and Sinar.
Therefore I think the situation would be clearer if they remained autonomous.
Deciding to try and sell themsleves in a large market like the US then puts them in competition with their partnered companies of Leaf and Sinar.
F&H have more to play with on profit margains so will they then be putting pressure on Leaf and Sinar to cut their prices to unfair levels?
That's what I meant to say. Not saying I am correct at all - I just think it might be a interesting discussion.
Jo S.x
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Not sure if I am allowed to reply to myself...
My point above was put more eloquently in the 'Three heads analogy' by Mark T.
Seems that F&H are not necessarily working in the best interest of Leaf and Sinar, thats all.
They should either stay in the background as an OEM company or simply have launched the Hy6 as a camera platform under the Rollei name and licensed it to who ever wanted to pay up.
Just my 2 pence worth!
Jo S.x
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The first P21 I got was faulty. It had a problem with the card reader. I called my dealer, dealer gave me direct contact with PhaseOne, phaseone called me the same day and my new P21 arrived three days later (weekend included). I live 200 km from Stockholm and PO is located in Denmark. It's the company that makes this happen. I understand Mark saying he doubt Sinar/Leaf/ being capable of same support. Actually, PhaseOne was the same effective company when I had my 6Mp Lightphase. PhaseOne's good support is nothing new...
Absolutely - I dont really trust any one to do what they say
But I can get a new nikon pretty easy
And of course you can get four for the price of a DB
S
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i really dont know if there exist a wrong or right.... but i know that i have got excellent service from sinar german as well from sinar swiss and asia for exchanging backs,adapters and lending me things as the sinar m or the multishot back when i thought i needed it.
what would you have done with your **.***$ shot, which mark is alltimes referring to, if the exchange - back came three short days later?
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Rainer, I don't mean sinar or leaf has bad reputation regarding support. But someone thinking about the Rollei Hy6? Information? Backs? Suport? Dealers? Actualy I was considering the Hy6 when I switched to digital. I had been working with a 503CW and H1 and a Rollei, and the Hy6 seemed to be the natural step for me. I wrote my thoughts in this thread. (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14801&st=0) They (swedish dealer) could never explain clear what the options were. I had a Contax system that I loved except the autofocus, a Mamiya AFDII without DB because it never arrived...
At the end, all this confusion made me go other ways. I ended up with H2/P21. The combo Hasselblad/Phase simply works in every way. Now, the Hy6 project are late for me anyway, and the camera isn't out yet...
It has been a lot of this discussion here for about 5 - 6 months ago and now, it seems that we are at the same point. People wonder same things, the marketing works the same way....
i really dont know if there exist a wrong or right.... but i know that i have got excellent service from sinar german as well from sinar swiss and asia for exchanging backs,adapters and lending me things as the sinar m or the multishot back when i thought i needed it.
what would you have done with your **.***$ shot, which mark is alltimes referring to, if the exchange - back came three short days later?
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Whatever Mark's creative fee for the day is, double it! LOL!
I get this mental image of a very well-dressed, three-headed technician, with his white lab coat, and his engineering degree. Like some mythological character from a Greek tragedy, (except he's much better dressed). This giant figure is lumbering towards the marketplace, but as he approaches, one of the three heads begin to make snide comments to the other heads. Before long, all three heads are in full battle with each other, and they haven't even reached the Town Square yet. Just before it enters Main Street, the three heads are spewing arrows at the other heads, and the giant figure falls head-first into the Hardware Store window and dies a quick death. It killed itself, before it ever got to the party.
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It is amazing. Everybody is bitching about the camera, the manufactures, .... and so on. Mamiya announced the ZD back in 2004 or was it 1989 or even before the steam engine was invented and the back made it to market just this year. And still good product for most who use it at Iso 100.
Stop whining...
I did hold a Sinar HY6 in my hands. The shutter worked, the mirror went up and the image on the screen was there. No scientific tests, sure, but the shutter sound was standable, the mirror slap was far less than on a H1 ( totaly unscientific conclusion). The handgrip was fine. The control layout is idiot proof ( and even photographers will understand it). Hell of a camera. Finally you can compose a picture by looking down on a screen worth the hassle with digital medium format.
And with the next generation of 48 by 48 sensors, you will be lightyears ahead of your competitors. As most campaigns, at least in my case, are asking for DIN A2 horizontal and vertical from the same shot in 300 dots per inch.
And now I have to sell my hasselblad gear...
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So here we are a year later:more rumors, some cameras, and the difficult US market. We have some proud European companies involved here, who make great products, but don't quite get the US market....
And now, add the internet: where corporate decisions or differences spread like wildfire. For example, Leica one posted a firmware correction with a small error, and within 24 hours, everyone had it, and was griping. There is no longer any room for error. So too, the possibilities of information leaks are ever more present.
One more ingredient: imagine that a company develops its product for another company, allows yet another company to put their name on it too (Leaf), and then says they'll sell it under their own, original name (Rollei) as well.... and by the way, can one more company join the party (Phase)? Wow.
This level of corporate nimbleness is unheard of in this industry. Its almost like Kodak making camera, along with film that only they can process (Kodachrome), paper, ingredients, etc., but in reverse: Rollei (F&H) will make a product and it will be available any way you want to see it. As a Rollei, Sinar, or Leaf camera. Maybe its just a home for a back.
It's all great fun (to me). However this unfolds, at the end of the day we're getting a new Rollei, sized like a 500 Hassy, updated for digital backs, that takes my old (wonderful) Rollei lenses, and fixes a number of flaws in the 6008 series. Do I care whose name is on the front? Nope. Do I want a good product? You bet.
Yes, service in the US is a problem - just as it has been for these companies, and probably always will be. They just don't get what we need. But the product is just that - a fine one, and one I'm waiting for. Yes, its a bit of a circus, but then again, I never was too fond of corporate managment - and its kind of fun to see the curtain drop a bit, and peak into the backstage.
If the product is there, and is a good one, then nothing else will matter. If not, well, then the second guessing can continue on for a long time. My bet is on the former, but we'll have to see.
Geoff G.
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I heard yesterday, from a rep, that there would be an announcement at Photo Expo next week about Phase mount backs for Rollei Hy6, Don't know, but I guess we will find out soon.
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- the Rolleiflex branded Hy6 version will be available late November (hopefully just in time for the dentist's Christmas wish list);
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You forgot to say, "unless you're an american or european dentist".
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- the 45° prism finder is on schedule and will be available somewhere in the first quarter 2008.
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I did not know a 45° prism finder was planned.
Will both the 45° and 90° prism finders rotate like the SLX/6000-series versions?
Thank you, EPd.
Billy
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- the Rolleiflex branded Hy6 version will be available late November (hopefully just in time for the dentist's Christmas wish list);
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This may be true, but I would bet it will be hard to get one for a few months after the release date. Also about Phase compatibility the the Rollei, I was hinted by my dealer that the plates won't be available until possible mid next year when the release the full new version of C1
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mark: of course the 24h replacement is not a perfect solution...but better then having no warranty/replacement like canon....if your canon/nikon fails be prepared to wait weeks...of course having 2 is the best solution....another is buying local and having a dealer who will have some kind of replacement in your hands within 2 hours...NY and LA this is possible, of course you are always somehow screwed on location...rain? snow? who pays for that?
funny you mention those bike locks: a couple of years ago they had to go back on thier warranty because someone found out that they could be picked with any ball point pen...they did NOT pay for the bikes as they promised they would...bike messengers in NY went ballistic....somehow they found a legal loophole to escape....they did exchange the locks....
thierry: you mention earlier that you can only speak for yourself: i think that is the problem.....we know that only a handfull companies make bare DVD drives and LCD screens and everybody re-badges them into 1000s of different products...with different firmwares, etc...
this field is so specialized and so small, there were so many announcement by jenoptic and F&H and sinar and leaf....and nobody can speak for the other....hasselblad has their lenses made by fuji but nobody comes here and asks whether they have to send their lenses to fuji or to hasselblad...no confusion, good marketing....
anyway the camera will be amazing and once it is actually in the store anyone can ask the question at the counter..where do i send it if it fails? who is responsible...all these questions will be answered.....
of course the leaf camera won't be handled by sinar and the other way around...if they end up on the same desk (in repair)...who cares?
also: i am so sick and tired of hearing promises about C1v4...it will have lens correction built in, it will provide support for the Hy6, it will cure cancer......it 's a joke..the software is in beta and it took one year to build in highlight/shadow recovery sliders....yes, in the last remaining months they will re-invent the wheel.....i am still positive that phase backs will be on the hy6 (who know what badge it will carry) at one point...but i am almost hoping that phase won't be involved in this.....
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Meaning as a distributor in the US like MAC and SinarBron. I am not delusional.
All those companies have shit representation in the US and have so for years. Briese has been around since the early 90's and flurishing in Germany. Rollei lost its footing years ago and has always had horrible representation in the US. Arca, I won't even go there and Alpa is all too new and also have shit representation in the US.
Nothing is difficult, you just need the money to set it up and the passionate people to work it. There are enough retireing or retired photographers that are tired of the rat race and love selling gear and geeking out and selling to people. The problem is, all those brands are too high end to make a company, especially in today's market succesful unless you cater to the rental market and production houses. But SinarBron did it, so am I am sure BARA, RABA or for the Republican buyers ARAB could work as well. And please don't start with some racists crap. I am not meaning in that way.
I do hope you guys do well and look forward to seeing a working product with a cost effective back up body available.
Rick,
Please take this with the complete humor that it is meant. Saying Briese, Rollei, Arca and Alba getting together would be great is kind of like a photographic manufacturer fantasy pool, or arguing whether Superman or Batman would win in a fight. You have to remember that they are all individual companies and on some levels compete for the same market elsewhere.
DSM is owned by Tosh Komamura, who also owns Horseman. Which is why DSM is the mechanism to distribute horseman and and try and move more Rollei in the US. I am sure DSM's efforts also have a bit more urgency in trying to go toe to toe with Sinar, because of their long standing competition in the view camera market.
All 4 of those companies have suffered from weak distribution in the US. Many reasons including marketing, quality control problems, and just plain not understanding the US market. It is much harder than you expect to create a distributor that does it "RIGHT". If it was there would be a few hundred more brands in the US than there currently are. Many quality products have come and gone just because the importer could not get it together.
F&H did put out a press release last year that Sinar would be the worldwide distributor of all Rollei products with the exception of the UK and Japan due to previous distribution agreements. Obviously that has been muddled now and I am pretty certain there is more legal wrangling going on behind the scenes than we know. I don't think you can expect Sinar Bron to become the warranty center and repair center for all Hy6 variants. They are just an importer of goods into this country. They are owned by 3 individual manufacturers (Broncolor, Sinar and Foba) but are independent as a business entity. They have to buy parts and eat the cost of service just like any other importer.
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Meaning as a distributor in the US like MAC and SinarBron. I am not delusional.
All those companies have shit representation in the US and have so for years. Briese has been around since the early 90's and flurishing in Germany. Rollei lost its footing years ago and has always had horrible representation in the US. Arca, I won't even go there and Alpa is all too new and also have shit representation in the US.
Nothing is difficult, you just need the money to set it up and the passionate people to work it. There are enough retireing or retired photographers that are tired of the rat race and love selling gear and geeking out and selling to people. The problem is, all those brands are too high end to make a company, especially in today's market succesful unless you cater to the rental market and production houses. But SinarBron did it, so am I am sure BARA, RABA or for the Republican buyers ARAB could work as well. And please don't start with some racists crap. I am not meaning in that way.
I do hope you guys do well and look forward to seeing a working product with a cost effective back up body available.
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Rick,
I don't think it is possible to establish a network like Sinar Bron or MAC group in todays market with companies that aren't very well established here. Too often many factories treat their dealers like bad customers, rather than partners. In addition some of them are companies so small that they cannot provide the financial support to establish a good system here.
SBI and Mamiya America have both been around for 20 years (SinarBron is coming up on 30) when the market was a very different place. Both have shrunk personnel because market conditions but are able to provide quality customer service. It's not often, but I have also seen both fail from time to time.
I have been on this side of the business for more than 20 years and have seen many quality products come and go for different reasons. Ultimately they did not have the resources to build a bulkhead here in the US, and many continued to thrive in their parts of the world for years. (Some still do ...).
Matt
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Reference Phase.
Surely the best and most likeley option for them is to sit on the fence for a while see how the product matures and is taken up by the market and then decide
This is still a system that gives few apparent advantages and many apparent disadvantags for capturing with a 645 chip
it is of course chicken and egg because a phase option would help market take up
S
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Dear Paul,
Everybody should understand this, that I can only speak in the name of the company I represent and sign for here. However, I have put things clearly enough, or so I thought, that everybody can understand the relationships and the place of each actor: this has not changed since day one of my given information:
- Jenoptik is the project owner and financing company of the Hy6 camera system: the rights of this camera belong entirely to Jenoptik AG Germany.
- Sinar AG Switzerland is a 100% Jenoptik Cie, integrated in their Digital Imaging center.
- Sinar will sell the Hy6, its lenses and accessories, as well as provide support and service/back-up worldwide and through its existing network of distributors.
- Leaf has got the rights to sell this camera as well, under the name Leaf AFi. I suppose that Leaf will provide the servicing and support through its own distributors, which seems logical.
- F&H is the manufacturer of this camera (and accessories) and has the rights to sell it as well under the brand Rolleiflex Hy6.
Now, my information in January of this year was that this was meant in Japan, China and Russia, only. It happens now that this seems to have changed. But personnaly I simply do not care about it, since it concerns F&H. And my opinion is that it should be them announcing this.
So please tell me where I have been wrong, what other information has been given by Jenoptik or where did Jenoptik say something different? Leaf, so far I could read from Yair here on the forum, did not say much differently, if I remember it right. F&H? Sorry, they don't have any official member here (or?) and I am certainly not speaking for them.
This just to put things straight.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
thierry: you mention earlier that you can only speak for yourself: i think that is the problem....., there were so many announcement by jenoptic and F&H and sinar and leaf....and nobody can speak for the other....hasselblad has their lenses made by fuji but nobody comes here and asks whether they have to send their lenses to fuji or to hasselblad...no confusion, good marketing....
anyway the camera will be amazing and once it is actually in the store anyone can ask the question at the counter..where do i send it if it fails? who is responsible...all these questions will be answered.....
of course the leaf camera won't be handled by sinar and the other way around...if they end up on the same desk (in repair)...who cares?
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This is one way to put things: it suggests that it is Phase One deciding to join or not. They are not part of the project, have not financed it by any means and it was always said that there will be no adapter manufactured for PO backs. I wish to remind that the Hy6 project belongs to Jenoptik, thus the capability to give the rights (or not).
Phase doing an OEM back for Rollei is another story (with their P20, if I am right), and has nothing to do with the topic here.
Best regards,
Thierry
PhaseOne is not and will not be a party in the Hy6 project, as things look now. Not with Jenoptik and not with F&H. If they want to be on the Hy6 they will have to make an adapter themselves, as has been said here numerous times before. I don't know how Phase sees its future and how they wish to serve their clients. I wish they would take part, but it seems they do not share that wish. The one time they were prepared in the past to make a digital back for a Rolleiflex 6008AF camera, it was a Rollei branded back that was bought by Rollei. On their website there was no mention of the existence of that back at all. One would almost think that Phase is not interested in the Rolleiflex platform.
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Thierry, that is clear, just as it was clear months ago. You have the patience of a saint to answer the same questions over and over and over again!
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Not true: Sinar starts to deliver their first 9 units to their distributors this week.
Best regards,
Thierry
Anyway, for those who like solid information on the Hy6 developments I have some updates:
- the first Hy6 line production cameras will be supplied to Sinar and Leaf at the end of this month...
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What I don't understand is that some people complain about getting informed, although be it in bits and pieces. Do they want to be kept in the dark? And then, one day suddenly there is a new system that they never expected to see.
The Hy6/Afi was presented at last year's Photokina as a prototype. So it was clear that nobody could buy it yet, but it gave a taste of what would be an investment option in the near future. What is long about looking ahead one year when it comes to big investments?
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Of course, you want to be kept in the dark. You want to be kept in the dark with any new product, especially a whole new camera system, until it's shipping in quantity, and until someone else (with their fifty grand) does the initial beta testing on it.
If I learned anything with the H1 Hassie, you don't want to buy version 1.0 of anything that's that expensive. So of what use is it to me, for The Three-Headed Monster to announce something, when it's on the drawing board? And then, too, risk the entire world seeing their dirty laundry being aired, and they bite each other's head off until the camera actually hits the street?
Personally, I'll seriously look at this camera when there's a 6x6 chip out, and not until real photographers have been using it for at least a year or so, and the bugs are flushed out, and someone else risks their fifty grand. Would I love a 6x6 chip? Of course. Am I willing to (again) switch systems, only to find some glaring new fault in the new system? Absolutely not.
So you guys forge ahead. Keep snapping off to those MTF Charts. Be first in line. Get out your checkbooks. And then, make sure and report back. Go ahead -- the water's fine. Trust me.
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Of course, you want to be kept in the dark. You want to be kept in the dark with any new product, especially a whole new camera system, until it's shipping in quantity, and until someone else (with their fifty grand) does the initial beta testing on it.
If I learned anything with the H1 Hassie, you don't want to buy version 1.0 of anything that's that expensive. So of what use is it to me, for The Three-Headed Monster to announce something, when it's on the drawing board? And then, too, risk the entire world seeing their dirty laundry being aired, and they bite each other's head off until the camera actually hits the street?
Personally, I'll seriously look at this camera when there's a 6x6 chip out, and not until real photographers have been using it for at least a year or so, and the bugs are flushed out, and someone else risks their fifty grand. Would I love a 6x6 chip? Of course. Am I willing to (again) switch systems, only to find some glaring new fault in the new system? Absolutely not.
So you guys forge ahead. Keep snapping off to those MTF Charts. Be first in line. Get out your checkbooks. And then, make sure and report back. Go ahead -- the water's fine. Trust me.
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You crack me up Mark...nice homepage in your profile! LOL!
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I'll be getting a pair of Sinar hy6 bodies - no problem!
I'll still have my trusty Rollei 6008AF and two spare bodies to fall back on. Not exactly a leap into the unknown if you've been been using the aforementioned system for several years. Hopefully most of the bugs have been ironed out by now. Watch this space...
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My Leica M8 locked up on me yesterday again and is again dead. This is a camera made by a stellar manufacturer which has hit bug after bug, this body is my *third* body. I'm nt buying another proto camera from a german or swiss source.
Edmund
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My Leica M8 locked up on me yesterday again and is again dead. This is a camera made by a stellar manufacturer which has hit bug after bug, this body is my *third* body. I'm nt buying another proto camera from a german or swiss source.
Edmund
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You are a funny guy
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And with the next generation of 48 by 48 sensors ...
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I have to ask my standard question:
do you have any evidence (such as statements or even hints from sensor makers or MF back makers) for you statement that 48x48mm sensors are coming, even though the MF industry leaders Hasselblad-Imacon/Fuji and Mamiya have no use for such sensors, having committed to a 42x56mm maximum frame size in their AF systems?
It seems to me instead that SLR formats larger than 42x56mm (and square formats) were already essentially abandoned by MF makers in the late film era.
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It seems to me instead that SLR formats larger than 42x56mm were already essentially abandoned by MF makers in the late film era.
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What do you mean? Nobody build and used film cameras with aformat larger than 42x56mm anymore, even in the film era
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No offense, but as great as this camera might be, this is the exact reason why I'd never come close to considering it for a tool that I make money with. Here we are, two weeks or so from when it's supposedly unveiled, and they don't even know how to communicate with the public on who is going to sell it.
Again, this seems like The Ultimate Dentist Camera -- if it goes down on a Sunday morning, when the guy is going to take a leisurely walk thru the countryside and "snap some snaps", then, well, what a shame. But nothing is really lost, because he goes back to being a dentist tomorrow morning, and he still gets paid.
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Not sure about the dentists in Nashville, but I checked around with the dentists in Boston and they told me they are not at all inclined toward the Hy6(or the Hasselblad H3D for that matter). They all have or want Phase backs because they all read LL religiously and that's what the cognoscenti here all use. It's sort of like having a Tiger Woods autographed driver.
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What do you mean? Nobody build and used film cameras with aformat larger than 42x56mm anymore, even in the film era
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That is what I meant: though a few 6x6 and 6x7 SLR's stayed in production, new medium format SLR designs have essentially all been 645 or smaller for a decade or more, with the sole exception of the so-far struggling Rollei 6x6 AF system. The only other SLR in a format larger than 645 still available is the Hasselblad 503CW from 1996.
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That is what I meant: though a few 6x6 and 6x7 SLR's stayed in production, new medium format SLR designs have essentially all been 645 or smaller for a decade or more, with the sole exception of the so-far struggling Rollei 6x6 AF system. The only other SLR in a format larger than 645 still available is the Hasselblad 503CW from 1996.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145173\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mamiya RZIID?
Don
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Mamiya RZIID?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
At most a minor tweak of an existing design, not much sign of an R&D commitment.
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That is what I meant: though a few 6x6 and 6x7 SLR's stayed in production, new medium format SLR designs have essentially all been 645 or smaller for a decade or more, with the sole exception of the so-far struggling Rollei 6x6 AF system. The only other SLR in a format larger than 645 still available is the Hasselblad 503CW from 1996.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145173\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
could it be, that with the event of digital even in mediumformat and with the in the beginning tiny chipsize R&D money would rather justify a smaller format, nonetheless technical evolution and development even in photography never quit happening.
And for me a 48x48 chip would be desirable, A2 in horizontal and vertical from the same shoot without uprezing in 300dpi is a question I do hear quite often from the customers/agencies...
And probably they, the larger chips, will come, any time soon, or some time later, as there is no way to cramp more MP into the tiny chips they use today....
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At most a minor tweak of an existing design, not much sign of an R&D commitment.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145189\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
why would you tweak something obsolete
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why would you tweak something obsolete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145207\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If the camera is only obsolescent, not totally obsolete, and if the tweak is cheap, it could be worth it to allow it to work with digital backs and so keep a few lens and body sales going. Very different from the great expense of developing a new 48x48 or larger sensor and digital backs based on it if they are only usable with obsolescent gear.
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why would you tweak something obsolete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145207\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Because your company has lost so much money for so many years that you don't have the resources to design an entirely new paltform.
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Not sure about the dentists in Nashville, but I checked around with the dentists in Boston and they told me they are not at all inclined toward the Hy6(or the Hasselblad H3D for that matter). They all have or want Phase backs because they all read LL religiously and that's what the cognoscenti here all use.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145171\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Howard,
Why so bitter? Turn that frown upside down! Why are you unhappy? Aren't you Mr. Hasselblad? Turns out, you're the winner in all this Race To Stay Alive. You bought Hasselblad. They're sowing new seeds every day. When they announce, it's right there on the shelves, shipping. The way it ought to be. Or, are you now unhappy to be joining our Contax Camp, which is "shooting a discontinued camera club"? Truly, it's not that big a deal at all. It makes your camera now feel even more "rare". And it still works as well, discontinued, as it did when it was still being made. Will still make you plenty of money.
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Howard,
Why so bitter? Turn that frown upside down! Why are you unhappy? Aren't you Mr. Hasselblad? Turns out, you're the winner in all this Race To Stay Alive. You bought Hasselblad. They're sowing new seeds every day. When they announce, it's right there on the shelves, shipping. The way it ought to be. Or, are you now unhappy to be joining our Contax Camp, which is "shooting a discontinued camera club"? Truly, it's not that big a deal at all. It makes your camera now feel even more "rare". And it still works as well, discontinued, as it did when it was still being made. Will still make you plenty of money.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145322\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bitter? Frown? No way. Come on, Mark. You usually have such an exceptional sense of humor. I just returned from over two weeks in Southern Utah in my own version of "Into the Wild"(i.e., I give up fine Italian wine for the sake of art). Anyhow, I was sitting at the Boulder Grill in Boulder, Utah, for lunch after a sublime sunrise on Hell's Backbone Rd., taking an H3D where none has ventured so far, and I find the Boulder Grill now has WIFI with your burger for God's sakes(I think this was one of the last places in the US to have mail delivered by horse). I go onto LL and see everyone arguing about which med format digital set-up is the ideal dentist camera, as part of a heated discussion about the marketing "prowess" of the Sinar/Leaf/Rollei axis, otherwise known as "The Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight, Even with the Best Guns", with Mark Tucker stirring the pot as only he can do. I just knew I had to poll my dentist friends in Boston when I returned.
I am now also pissed at Hasselblad. $15K to upgrade from an H3D-39 to an H3D-II 39 for a 3" LCD is beyond ridiculous. God forbid they ever corner the market. The only good thing about being so pissed at Hasselblad it is that I finally feel I am in such esteemed company here.
Note to PSS: 150GB of files in the desert with not one error message.
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Bitter? Frown? No way. Come on, Mark. You usually have such an exceptional sense of humor. I just returned from over two weeks in Southern Utah in my own version of "Into the Wild"(i.e., I give up fine Italian wine for the sake of art). Anyhow, I was sitting at the Boulder Grill in Boulder, Utah, for lunch after a sublime sunrise on Hell's Backbone Rd., taking an H3D where none has ventured so far, and I find the Boulder Grill now has WIFI with your burger for God's sakes(I think this was one of the last places in the US to have mail delivered by horse). I go onto LL and see everyone arguing about which med format digital set-up is the ideal dentist camera, as part of a heated discussion about the marketing "prowess" of the Sinar/Leaf/Rollei axis, otherwise known as "The Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight, Even with the Best Guns", with Mark Tucker stirring the pot as only he can do. I just knew I had to poll my dentist friends in Boston when I returned.
I am now also pissed at Hasselblad. $15K to upgrade from an H3D-39 to an H3D-II 39 for a 3" LCD is beyond ridiculous. God forbid they ever corner the market. The only good thing about being so pissed at Hasselblad it is that I finally feel I am in such esteemed company here.
Note to PSS: 150GB of files in the desert with not one error message.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145344\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey Howard,
Will you post some pics taken with the 28mm to convince me the new DAC is worth the money they are asking for the H3D. It's decision time for me !
Pete
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I am now also pissed at Hasselblad. $15K to upgrade from an H3D-39 to an H3D-II 39 for a 3" LCD is beyond ridiculous. God forbid they ever corner the market. The only good thing about being so pissed at Hasselblad it is that I finally feel I am in such esteemed company here.
Note to PSS: 150GB of files in the desert with not one error message.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145344\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Howard,
I'm envious of your trip. Nothing better than Utah. You chose well.
I never thought I'd read those words, quoted above. Think about it -- for the price of the Hasselblad upgrade, you could buy TWO of the new 1ds3's, (and have a 3" LCD as well).
Really makes you wonder about the old adage, "You get what you pay for".
For the record, if I was Hasselblad, I'd close the system too. It's the only way to put the squeeze on market-leader PhaseOne. But in recent months, I thought Hasselblad was closing the system to get the prices down, to compete with Canon, (which is the only one worth competing with), but now, when I see these Hasselblad prices, I now think that Hasselblad is positioning themselves to be a boutique Ferrari, and they're fine to let Canon be mass-market Lexus, and not even compete with Canon at all. Personally, I have doubts about that strategy, but only time will tell.
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Hey Howard,
Will you post some pics taken with the 28mm to convince me the new DAC is worth the money they are asking for the H3D. It's decision time for me !
Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145351\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Pete, I intended to do this today but work got in the way.
The next two weeks are a bit busy, but I will do my best.
All I can say (as heresay!) that if you imagine a building and capture with the 28mm then you will see the distortion, ie lines not straight - curvy walls!
Switch on DAC, and you could run a straight edge anywhere and it is perfect. No increase in processing time, no perceptible loss of detail. It really is that good.
Jo S.x
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I am now also pissed at Hasselblad. $15K to upgrade from an H3D-39 to an H3D-II 39 for a 3" LCD is beyond ridiculous. God forbid they ever corner the market. The only good thing about being so pissed at Hasselblad it is that I finally feel I am in such esteemed company here.
Note to PSS: 150GB of files in the desert with not one error message.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145344\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't forget Howard that a lot of the new stuff is available with Firmware just on FC 481, for your H3D.
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Hi Pete, I intended to do this today but work got in the way.
The next two weeks are a bit busy, but I will do my best.
All I can say (as heresay!) that if you imagine a building and capture with the 28mm then you will see the distortion, ie lines not straight - curvy walls!
Switch on DAC, and you could run a straight edge anywhere and it is perfect. No increase in processing time, no perceptible loss of detail. It really is that good.
Jo S.x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I do not have the 28mm lens. However, I have seen a demonstration of just how effective the DAC features are with the 28mm lens. Very impressive. It would be very interesting to see how the Mamiya 28mm lens compares without any software based correction. The Mamiya samples I have seen on the net look like there is a good bit of barrel distortion.
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Don't forget Howard that a lot of the new stuff is available with Firmware just on FC 481, for your H3D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I understand, but what did Phase charge for an upgrade from the P45 to the P45+, around $6K?
I also am perplexed by the decision to eliminate a film back option on the H3D II.
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Does Rolleiflex Hy6 and Rollei 6008 share the same mount?
Thanks
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EPd,
not everybody knows all and has read the specs about the Hy6: that's why we are here, you as a Rolleiflex specialist, me as the Sinar representative.
Best regards,
Thierry
Are you kidding? I thought that would be clear by now! Maybe a good idea to read the specs?
http://www.franke-heidecke.net/files/image..._4S_24.7.07.pdf (http://www.franke-heidecke.net/files/images/Pr_Hy6_GB_4S_24.7.07.pdf)
[attachment=6667:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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fair enough, EPd, I am not too lazy to answer those questions.
FYI: I am not the Sinar SALES representative here but simply a help for those wishing to know about Sinar products and to correct wrong information (sometimes), since I am simply trying to help with what I know, certainly not to sell. And most importantly, here on LL with my FREE choice to be here and never been asked to do so.
Best regards,
Thierry
Sorry Thierry, not looking for an argument but I am not here to be called in when people are too lazy to read up on basic information. I am not a sales representative who's job it is (and hopefully doesn't mind) to answer the same questions over and over again. I am just a photographer who tries to share interesting information with colleagues. Next time I'll leave questions like these for others to answer.
Regards,
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Does Rolleiflex Hy6 and Rollei 6008 share the same mount?
Thanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
While Thierry and EPd discuss, the short answer to the question is yes. Same mount. All older lenses will work on Hy6 and its various models. Hy6 has auto focus, and thus is able to use AF capabilities of newer lenses.
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By the way, EPd, thank you for the update information. Nice to have.
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Does Rolleiflex Hy6 and Rollei 6008 share the same mount?
Thanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Same lens mount? Yes. Same back mount? No.
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Thanks Geoffrey,
to be a little more precise:
- the Hy6 does accept all existing 6000 series lenses, AF or non-AF, as well as the new for this camera produced AFD lenses: a total of more then 40 lenses. See also the list of all lenses fitting the Hy6 published here by myself some time ago:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=23496 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23496)
- with manual focus there is a focus indicator telling the in-focus.
- if the question is about back adaption: the Rolleiflex 6008 and the Hy6 do not use the same adapter system.
Best regards,
Thierry
While Thierry and EPd discuss, the short answer to the question is yes. Same mount. All older lenses will work on Hy6 and its various models. Hy6 has auto focus, and thus is able to use AF capabilities of newer lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197019\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Are you kidding? I thought that would be clear by now! Maybe a good idea to read the specs?
http://www.franke-heidecke.net/files/image..._4S_24.7.07.pdf (http://www.franke-heidecke.net/files/images/Pr_Hy6_GB_4S_24.7.07.pdf)
[attachment=6667:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am not as often as you guys here! Anyway, I asked because Phase guys are so confident..... claiming they already have the solution!!!
It doesn't hurt to ask
Thanks anyway
EPd,
not everybody knows all and has read the specs about the Hy6: that's why we are here, you as a Rolleiflex specialist, me as the Sinar representative.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196933\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry, THANKS for the support
Same lens mount? Yes. Same back mount? No.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197022\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
T H A N K S! Graham
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I am not as often as you guys here! Anyway, I asked because Phase guys are so confident..... claiming they already have the solution!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197183\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oh? Are you asking about backs for the Hy6? If so, Phase has been pretty mum. Thee have been rumors and interest, but no real progress to my knowledge. We're all hoping... but so far, just waiting.
Geoff
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Oh? Are you asking about backs for the Hy6? ... no real progress to my knowledge. We're all hoping... but so far, just waiting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197210\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There has been some real progress at Phase One, even since this thread started. Phase One has launched a close collaboration with Mamiya, producing new backs for Mamiya 645AFD family bodies, and rebranding the new Mamiya 645 body and at least one lens as Phase One products. I would surmise from facts like this that Phase One aims to build a near monopoly as supplier of fully integrated backs for the Mamiya-based 645 format product line, and is not interested in being one of three back suppliers for the Rollei-based 6x6 format Hy6 system.
Others may predict otherwise based on internet forum speculations or invoking the dogma of an inevitable eventual move to larger formats like the higher (but no wider) 6x6 format, but I have not seen any verifiable facts to support such predictions, any many pointing in a different direction, including many comments from Sinar's Thierry.