Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Mark Lindquist on September 26, 2007, 05:20:34 pm
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I opted to begin doing my own LF printing (Z3100 44") in order to have more control over the process. More control = more stuff to do including making sure the prints are protected. My canvas of choice is Breathing Color Chromata White, and they (Breathing Color) sell "Glamour Gloss II" their own proprietary finish.
So my questions are:
1. Do you roll or spray your finishes? (What special techniques /equipment do you use (i.e. HVLP vs. standard air gun)
2. Anyone using a liquid laminator system?
3. What top coat (product) do you use?
4. Are you happy with your system?
5. What kind of storage systems? Rolls, racks, hanging, etc.???
OK, lots of questions - it would be nice to know about your systems - I've been building some interesting racks for holding my prints, using 1 1/4" PVC pipe - (the prints free hang over the tubing and touch nothing).
Mark
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I've been building some interesting racks for holding my prints, using 1 1/4" PVC pipe - (the prints free hang over the tubing and touch nothing).
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142048\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I haven't done canvas yet but I'm very interested in learning more about your drying rack. I'd love to see some photos of it.
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There are a bunch of water-based acrylic products like the breathing colour product: I've tried several and have been only partially satisfied with any of them. Clear shield makes a product that might be a bit better, IMHO -- http://www.clearstarcorp.com/clearshield.asp (http://www.clearstarcorp.com/clearshield.asp) Or it could be just that clear shield is the last one I tried.
A mineral spirit based varnish (check an art supply store) when sprayed gives a nicer finish but it's not something to do in the home office. It can go on very thin and evenly with a little practice but make sure you have a proper mask and ventilation.
The problem with the water based finishes is that it's difficult to get them smooth, even AND thin. I think they get much too thick and start looking like a person took a polyurethane floor finish to the picture. They also seem to coalesce (sp) around knots or defects in the canvas and make them more visible.
Cold pressed laminate is the way I've been going. At about $2 a square foot and no labour of my own I can't see ever going back. With the matte canvas the gloss laminate looks fantastic and adds both contrast and depth. YMMV and I have had several prints wrecked by hot laminates due to unacceptable colour shifts.
Doug
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There are a bunch of water-based acrylic products like the breathing colour product: I've tried several and have been only partially satisfied with any of them. Clear shield makes a product that might be a bit better, IMHO -- http://www.clearstarcorp.com/clearshield.asp (http://www.clearstarcorp.com/clearshield.asp) Or it could be just that clear shield is the last one I tried.
A mineral spirit based varnish (check an art supply store) when sprayed gives a nicer finish but it's not something to do in the home office. It can go on very thin and evenly with a little practice but make sure you have a proper mask and ventilation.
The problem with the water based finishes is that it's difficult to get them smooth, even AND thin. I think they get much too thick and start looking like a person took a polyurethane floor finish to the picture. They also seem to coalesce (sp) around knots or defects in the canvas and make them more visible.
Cold pressed laminate is the way I've been going. At about $2 a square foot and no labour of my own I can't see ever going back. With the matte canvas the gloss laminate looks fantastic and adds both contrast and depth. YMMV and I have had several prints wrecked by hot laminates due to unacceptable colour shifts.
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142094\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Doug -
I know what you mean about the floor finish look - not so good. We have a finishing room and lots of room to experiment and are developing some interesting techniques layering the finish in lighter coats. I'm interested in your cold pressed laminating technique. Gloss laminate over matte canvas? I'm looking for the ideal non-volatile thin layer with a minimum of toxicity. Understanding that that is asking for a lot. But I'm getting there.
Thanks for your comments-
Mark
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I haven't done canvas yet but I'm very interested in learning more about your drying rack. I'd love to see some photos of it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142075\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You should print canvas man - is incredible-
Mark
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You should print canvas man - is incredible-
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142199\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Its on the list of things for me to tackle after the firmware release.
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Breathing Color's Glamour II gloss is very good----but there is a slight learning curve. I hand-roll Glamour II on Breathing Color's Chromata white.
I have found that the trick is to get the right dilution ratio (use very warm water) to mix with the Glamour II. I use a mixture of about 60% Glam II to 40% water. Two thin coats often works best.
The (exact same) dense foam rollers can be purchased cheaply at Home Depot.
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Mark:
For a sprayed on finish I found that Golden's MSA varnish was the best I've tried but that is the only non-waterbased one I've used besides the way too expensive spray bomb stuff of various brands.
I don't do the laminating myself and for $2 a foot don't see any reason to The other thing is that coating with the water-based coatings like Breathing colors is very labour intensive and takes up a lot of space. Today I got an order for 18 pieces that will burn through 3 whole rolls of canvas -- it'd take me a week just to coat them with the space I have available and that's time better spent taking pictures or printing new pics.
I can get some more details if you are interested but my understanding is that the machine was around 40K so it's not for the home printer (like myself). The laminate is continuous and the largest I've had done was 44x108 inches, laminated right to the edges. I don't think I could adequately capture the surface with my camera but am willing to try if it would be of interest. I've had two different outfits try a hot laminate and did not like the results of either so I was quite surprised at how well this turned out.
Doug
Hi Doug -
I know what you mean about the floor finish look - not so good. We have a finishing room and lots of room to experiment and are developing some interesting techniques layering the finish in lighter coats. I'm interested in your cold pressed laminating technique. Gloss laminate over matte canvas? I'm looking for the ideal non-volatile thin layer with a minimum of toxicity. Understanding that that is asking for a lot. But I'm getting there.
Thanks for your comments-
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142198\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Mark:
For a sprayed on finish I found that Golden's MSA varnish was the best I've tried but that is the only non-waterbased one I've used besides the way too expensive spray bomb stuff of various brands.
I don't do the laminating myself and for $2 a foot don't see any reason to The other thing is that coating with the water-based coatings like Breathing colors is very labour intensive and takes up a lot of space. Today I got an order for 18 pieces that will burn through 3 whole rolls of canvas -- it'd take me a week just to coat them with the space I have available and that's time better spent taking pictures or printing new pics.
I can get some more details if you are interested but my understanding is that the machine was around 40K so it's not for the home printer (like myself). The laminate is continuous and the largest I've had done was 44x108 inches, laminated right to the edges. I don't think I could adequately capture the surface with my camera but am willing to try if it would be of interest. I've had two different outfits try a hot laminate and did not like the results of either so I was quite surprised at how well this turned out.
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Doug -
I've investigated the cold laminating but it's not the direction I think I'd like to go. Speaking with a pro in our area, he did say it definitely stiffens the canvas and it's a "hard" coating, compared to a minimally intrusive spray or rolled coating. It's all a tricky business, I think the laminating is cool from the standpoint that someone else does it and it's DONE, when it's done.
So if you doing the cold laminating, then how are you mounting the finished canvas? Still stretching?
Thanks-
Mark
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Mark:
I don't do my own stretching anymore but the prints are all stretched. Concentrate on the few things I can do well (or relatively well).
I would say that the laminate used is every bit as flexible as a properly applied coating and more so than the thick mess that seems to be the norm with the water based finishes. The stretchers have had no problems with it. It rolls tightly but the tip from the laminators is to roll it with the printed side (laminated) out. Another tip is to always laminate to the edge and not try to cheap-out by only laminating the printed area.
I was in an art show recently and the prints beside mine were done using the breathing colour coating while mine were laminated. Both were printed on the breathing colour matte canvas using the same model of printer. The other guy's stuff looked kind of dull and lifeless, not crisp and contrasty and judging from the questions and comments I don't think the patrons even recognized that it was the same process that created both prints. The other guy spent hours, I spent $37.50 (36x78 inches). I sold a print, he did not.
Another issue that might be more unique to me though is that I do panoramas, very large, very detailed. Trying to get an even coat with the water-based products on a 36x78 inch piece of canvas is not easy. In my experience viewers get right up to the print, whatever the size so it has to hold up to close scrutiny: in other words I don't subscribe to the "viewing distance" argument some use for resolution arguments.
But again I should stress that I have had bad experiences with the heat-applied laminates and it may be this particular brand that is better than others. I can find out the details in the next day or two and pass them along...
Doug
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I've been using Gliclee Shield applied by roller. Took me a while to get a good workflow. I use Mohair rollers to apply the coating. Gives a good finish without bubbling, as when using a foam roller. This is a water based coating and provides a tough finish. Leaves a slight gloss finish (matt coating) but gives better contrast to the image and really brings out the colour of the image. No complaints from the customers, so I'll keep doing it.
I accidently scraped an MDF board against a demo sample yesterday, thought I'd ruined the print. Close examination showed no damage at all. I've seen too many prints done in my town where they don't coat at all ot just apply a thin spray
Neal
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Mark:
I don't do my own stretching anymore but the prints are all stretched. Concentrate on the few things I can do well (or relatively well).
I would say that the laminate used is every bit as flexible as a properly applied coating and more so than the thick mess that seems to be the norm with the water based finishes. The stretchers have had no problems with it. It rolls tightly but the tip from the laminators is to roll it with the printed side (laminated) out. Another tip is to always laminate to the edge and not try to cheap-out by only laminating the printed area.
I was in an art show recently and the prints beside mine were done using the breathing colour coating while mine were laminated. Both were printed on the breathing colour matte canvas using the same model of printer. The other guy's stuff looked kind of dull and lifeless, not crisp and contrasty and judging from the questions and comments I don't think the patrons even recognized that it was the same process that created both prints. The other guy spent hours, I spent $37.50 (36x78 inches). I sold a print, he did not.
Another issue that might be more unique to me though is that I do panoramas, very large, very detailed. Trying to get an even coat with the water-based products on a 36x78 inch piece of canvas is not easy. In my experience viewers get right up to the print, whatever the size so it has to hold up to close scrutiny: in other words I don't subscribe to the "viewing distance" argument some use for resolution arguments.
But again I should stress that I have had bad experiences with the heat-applied laminates and it may be this particular brand that is better than others. I can find out the details in the next day or two and pass them along...
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142311\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is very interesting Doug -
So if your could find out what specific laminate it is and what the thickness of the coating is and what machine was used, it would be much appreciated. I definitely know that the process and mixtures and the applications are critical in getting things just right, either rolling or spraying, which is what we're currently doing. I definitely am intrigued with your use of the laminating and would like to know specifics. Your story hits home about the other guy and the Glamour Gloss coating. We're getting it dialed in really nicely but it does scare me when considering a 7 foot plus length 44" wide...
Thanks again-
Mark
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I've been using Gliclee Shield applied by roller. Took me a while to get a good workflow. I use Mohair rollers to apply the coating. Gives a good finish without bubbling, as when using a foam roller. This is a water based coating and provides a tough finish. Leaves a slight gloss finish (matt coating) but gives better contrast to the image and really brings out the colour of the image. No complaints from the customers, so I'll keep doing it.
I accidently scraped an MDF board against a demo sample yesterday, thought I'd ruined the print. Close examination showed no damage at all. I've seen too many prints done in my town where they don't coat at all ot just apply a thin spray
Neal
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142312\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Neal -
Yes I hear you about scrapes and surface damage. It's an important thing to provide protection regardless of what finish. The tricky business of it is to get there without compromising the aspects of quality though. What a shame to have images so pristine on that beautiful surface only to plasticize them with glop. Reality sets in though and reason raises it's head. I've looked at Giclee Shield and may do some experimenting in the future. Thanks for your input - appreciate it.
Mark
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Mark:
Will do, expect a response tomorrow or later this evening. I don't take the prints personally to the laminator so it's an ask someone to ask sort of thing.....
I like that -- sounds like I have "people" as in my people will take care of it....
I should make another point is that with the acrylics that the gloss coatings usually produce a better result because, as it's been explained to me, the "matte" or "semi-gloss" is done with an flattening additive that doesn't take well to multiple coats and may not spread evenly.
To each his own and I guess it also depends on the ultimate goal -- I'm a picture taker foremost rather than a picture printer so the final finishing is more of a chore to me than a craft.
Another Laminating tale: I sent 80 canvases in the spring to a framing wholesaler that was supposed to be marketting them for me. Of the 80 they wrecked at least 17(!!) using water based coatings both roll-on and spray on. They may actually have wrecked more than 17 but since we are no longer speaking to each other I may never know. Through my new agent we've sold twice that many and one (ONE) was returned but the opinions are split 3:2 whether it's the laminate or a defect in the canvas itself.
As the other poster noted though, canvas has to be protected and anything is better than leaving them bare.
Doug
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Hi Neal -
Yes I hear you about scrapes and surface damage. It's an important thing to provide protection regardless of what finish. The tricky business of it is to get there without compromising the aspects of quality though. What a shame to have images so pristine on that beautiful surface only to plasticize them with glop. Reality sets in though and reason raises it's head. I've looked at Giclee Shield and may do some experimenting in the future. Thanks for your input - appreciate it.
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142318\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Mark - I'm always on the look for better and better perfection - the biggest problem being I'm learning on my own as I go - so even better techniques are always appreciated. The other problem is price. People always want more for less - getting prints done on cheap canvas down at the local photo copiers. I had the top framer in my city come for advice on sealant protection - he was getting too many canvas jobs with no protection at all. Always good to receive advice from the experts here.
Neal
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Mark:
I should make another point is that with the acrylics that the gloss coatings usually produce a better result because, as it's been explained to me, the "matte" or "semi-gloss" is done with an flattening additive that doesn't take well to multiple coats and may not spread evenly.
Doug
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=142321\")
The canvas is sprayed here. I use water based Lascaux varnish and spray thin layers of gloss, drying them in between on a silkscreen tunnel dryer, the last spray is either gloss or matte varnish but thin again. This way I can continuously spray say 3 or 4 canvas prints and have dry products ready for stretching. Never use matte varnish to build up the coating as that degrades the image.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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No one is afraid of a chemical reaction between the spray, the ink and the paper ? Had Wilhelm made some test with spray ?
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No one is afraid of a chemical reaction between the spray, the ink and the paper ? Had Wilhelm made some test with spray ?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=142390\")
[a href=\"http://www.inkjetart.com/premier/print_shield.html]http://www.inkjetart.com/premier/print_shield.html[/url]
Wilhelm tested PremierArt Shield and there's a gain in protection. Lyson sells the same spray as their own brand AFAIK.
I'm reducing my intake of solvents though.
Acrylic dispersions that are 100% acrylic have a very good reputation. They usually are more flexible in time than the solvent based ones. Most of this goes back to the original Rohm&Haas B-72 acrylics tested and the many years they have been used in conservation etc.
Aliphatic polyurethane, a water based resin that is promising but is more difficult to apply, would be another choice to consider. Doesn't yellow either.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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http://www.inkjetart.com/premier/print_shield.html (http://www.inkjetart.com/premier/print_shield.html)
Wilhelm tested PremierArt Shield and there's a gain in protection. Lyson sells the same spray as their own brand AFAIK.
I'm reducing my intake of solvents though.
Acrylic dispersions that are 100% acrylic have a very good reputation. They usually are more flexible in time than the solvent based ones. Most of this goes back to the original Rohm&Haas B-72 acrylics tested and the many years they have been used in conservation etc.
Aliphatic polyurethane, a water based resin that is promising but is more difficult to apply, would be another choice to consider. Doesn't yellow either.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142400\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have to reduce my intake of solvents too. After 35 years of artwork of all kinds and finishes that just have potentially dangerous effects it's critical not to be in any toxic environment for me. I wear a mask even for the "friendly" finishes. The thing about solvent based finishes is that once you get a chemical sensitivity to the stuff there's no turning back. I just can't tolerate that heavy duty smell stuff. I'm amazed anyone can. C'est la vie though I guess.
Interesting stuff on the Wilhelm testing - thanks-
Mark
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Even when spraying a water based varnish you need a respirator. Don't trust the el-cheapo little face cover disposable masks. When the water based coating is sprayed the mist created has the acrylic in it and breathing that mist will allow some of the acrylic to make it to your lungs.
Charlie
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Cold pressed laminate is the way I've been going. At about $2 a square foot and no labour of my own I can't see ever going back. With the matte canvas the gloss laminate looks fantastic and adds both contrast and depth. YMMV and I have had several prints wrecked by hot laminates due to unacceptable colour shifts.
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142094\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What is the cold laminate product you are using? It sounds like a lower cost that what I have seen available.
Charlie
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My guy didn't know of the top of his head but was going to ask when he was in with the next batch (printing now). I'll post the details when I have them. I thought I would try a couple pictures of the finished product tonight or this weekend.
Doug
What is the cold laminate product you are using? It sounds like a lower cost that what I have seen available.
Charlie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142426\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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My guy didn't know of the top of his head but was going to ask when he was in with the next batch (printing now). I'll post the details when I have them. I thought I would try a couple pictures of the finished product tonight or this weekend.
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That would be great Doug - I'm very interested and I think many here would be as well.
If you can, get all the details like what thickness, brand and type of Laminator, OK?
Much appreciated -
Mark
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I've been hitting my matte surface canvases with three very light HVLP coats of Future. It dries almost instantly, so with 3-4 prints on the go I can just flit around the room in sequence and be done. The amount is barely enough to build, but is enough to cover up the pigments and provide a load deflecting surface -- changes a scratchable print into one you don't have to worry so much about. This technique adds a very mild specular reflection and doesn't change the flexibility of the print, so cracking is not an issue. It's not bulletproof like a laminated paper print, so I'm still on the prowl for something better. In any case, handling doesn't affect the product, and customers like the result.
I've got some Glamour II in for testing but am dubious about time required to do it well, although the Breathing Color rep (who I've spent considerable time on the fone with) swears up and down that properly applied it makes the canvas worry-free.
In introducing new processes, I'm more apt to try low heat lamination (180F with some of drytac's 1.7mil production gloss product) than get really serious with self-leveling liquids like rolled on finishes. My HVLP gun can put on a very precise coating and when well tuned the time really isn't a big deal. Especially if the prints are hit with a heat gun for just a few seconds.
The research never stops, though.
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Even when spraying a water based varnish you need a respirator. Don't trust the el-cheapo little face cover disposable masks. When the water based coating is sprayed the mist created has the acrylic in it and breathing that mist will allow some of the acrylic to make it to your lungs.
Charlie
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=142424\")
Spray booth with exhaust is available here. And a good face mask with dust + charcoal filters. There still is a solvent part in dispersions too so you have to be careful. Rolling may be a healthier method but spraying gives more control. At least for me.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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I've been hitting my matte surface canvases with three very light HVLP coats of Future. It dries almost instantly, so with 3-4 prints on the go I can just flit around the room in sequence and be done. The amount is barely enough to build, but is enough to cover up the pigments and provide a load deflecting surface -- changes a scratchable print into one you don't have to worry so much about. This technique adds a very mild specular reflection and doesn't change the flexibility of the print, so cracking is not an issue. It's not bulletproof like a laminated paper print, so I'm still on the prowl for something better. In any case, handling doesn't affect the product, and customers like the result.
I've got some Glamour II in for testing but am dubious about time required to do it well, although the Breathing Color rep (who I've spent considerable time on the fone with) swears up and down that properly applied it makes the canvas worry-free.
In introducing new processes, I'm more apt to try low heat lamination (180F with some of drytac's 1.7mil production gloss product) than get really serious with self-leveling liquids like rolled on finishes. My HVLP gun can put on a very precise coating and when well tuned the time really isn't a big deal. Especially if the prints are hit with a heat gun for just a few seconds.
The research never stops, though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142531\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sean-
My Breathing Color rep also swears up and down the product is definitely the best. He's a little evangelistic about it which worries me. The time is definitely an issue, but I do feel that handle-ability and protection are good with GG2. You mention you would try drytac's 1.7 mil production gloss product via low heat lamination - I like that idea, but would be concerned about color shift with the heat. Interestingly, my BC rep says they have new data that trumps the outdated video and instruction tips for GG2. He says heating the water is like critical. Also, they now say going back over at 90 degrees to original pattern is fine, whereas before, not.
All these people say there's no smell issues, but for this chemically over-exposed parakeet in a mine, man that stuff like all of it is brutal. The lamination technique is becoming more and more interesting. I wonder what is out there that is the very thinnest lam that has UV?
The spray techniques seem to be the least invasive, but getting that stuff airborne even while wearing protective gear makes me jittery. Laminating would be defintely cool.
BTW the BC rep says that Glamour Gloss 2 can not be used in liquid laminator machines.
And that is a whole 'nother issue - liquid lamination...
Thanks for you input - I agree, the research never ends...
The quest for excellence can never be enough.
Mark
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I think the main smell is ammonia. Golden's product has the full conservation data, including removal, which is by ammonia. I don't know how well removal would work with inkjet printed materials though as I think the ammonia will also get at the ink.
Golden's instructions: http://www.goldenpaints.com/technicaldata/polvar.php (http://www.goldenpaints.com/technicaldata/polvar.php) Which may be of interest regardless of product actually used. I'll note again that as I said above the MSA varnish gives a better finish and is easier (though certainly not safer) to apply than the water-born acrylic finishes.
I have used the ammonia to fix a run with mixed results and ended up tossing the piece.
AFAIK all of these products are basically acrylic plastic ground up in a water solution. There may be some differences with the flattening agents but golden seems to be the only one that clearly recommends using gloss for all lower layers and only using matte (or matte/gloss mixes) for the final surface. I've used four, in order or preference: Clearshield, Breathing Colour, Golden, and another one I don't recall the name of. From what I've seen there isn't a lot of difference in the results between the first three though but the directions differ and should probably be followed for each product. I found that they all needed at least 2 coats, were way better sprayed than rolled, and should be applied with the work absolutely flat, and horizontal in a dust-free environment. For large canvases I found it best to sort of pre-stretch them by stapling down to the work surface. I had no luck applying them after stretching as the coating would pool in the center but smaller pieces may work better this way.
Doug
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Even when spraying a water based varnish you need a respirator. Don't trust the el-cheapo little face cover disposable masks. When the water based coating is sprayed the mist created has the acrylic in it and breathing that mist will allow some of the acrylic to make it to your lungs.
Charlie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142424\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Solvent-based silkscreen inks turned my hair gray many years ago :-o so I agree with the comments about protection, especially about becoming sensitized. It's always handy getting a WHMIS chart for a product, because even "water-based" products can contain hazards.
For example, my favourite screen printing ink, "TW" brand, is an "acrylic" ink, but it contains approx. 2% solvents, and I understand that these 2% are quite harsh. So although these are much safer to work with than the old satin poster inks, I still ensure proper ventilation, and encourage anyone using varnishes of any kind to take protective measures.
Bill
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I've been hitting my matte surface canvases with three very light HVLP coats of Future. The research never stops, though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142531\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sean,
I cant find the product you are referring to. Googling "future" and "future liquid laminate" isn't helping! Can you tell us who makes it?
Charlie
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Solvent-based silkscreen inks turned my hair gray many years ago :-o so I agree with the comments about protection, especially about becoming sensitized. It's always handy getting a WHMIS chart for a product, because even "water-based" products can contain hazards.
For example, my favourite screen printing ink, "TW" brand, is an "acrylic" ink, but it contains approx. 2% solvents, and I understand that these 2% are quite harsh. So although these are much safer to work with than the old satin poster inks, I still ensure proper ventilation, and encourage anyone using varnishes of any kind to take protective measures.
Bill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142720\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bill -
Yeah, for sure, the toxicity is the major issue, right behind quality. What good is quality if you have neurological damage, get the dropsies, migraines, etc. I can't stress enough how once becoming sensitized it's the end of the line. Smells become triggers, and the trigger causes the brain to "load the smell", then launch defense against it. Problem is, once the smell is loaded it won't go away even though it's not really there. This stuff is seriously dangerous if you become over-exposed. There's a tipping point, and once reached, no going back. So people who send their prints out to shops that do the work are just letting others take the exposure. Admittedly the "smart" way of doing things...
Thankfully there are a lot of good protective measures, but a PITA.
I'm leaning more and more toward lamination if I could find thin and good UV. Today's experiments have been more of the same. Push toward thin and orange peel results, go toward the coating they (BC) recommend via rolling and the thicker build-up results. No doubt it's possible to achieve good results rolling, but it's not quick and easy for sure. Spraying is not going to be possible in this environment.
Mark
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Golden's instructions: http://www.goldenpaints.com/technicaldata/polvar.php (http://www.goldenpaints.com/technicaldata/polvar.php) Which may be of interest regardless of product actually used.
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142691\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is a wealth of information Doug - a lot to digest. Thanks-
So how are those photos of the laminated canvas going?
Thanks-
Mark
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Sean,
I cant find the product you are referring to. Googling "future" and "future liquid laminate" isn't helping! Can you tell us who makes it?
Charlie
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=142728\")
Future® Floor Polish is an acrylic floor finish for no-wax & regular floors. Future® Floor Polish provides long lasting acrylic protection. Nothing outshines Future®.
[a href=\"http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html]http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html[/url]
http://makezine.com/pub/tool/Future_Floor_Wax (http://makezine.com/pub/tool/Future_Floor_Wax)
Jim
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As Jim says. I like it because it's durable, cheap, doesn't require thinning in my HVLP gun, and dries very very quickly. I don't roll or brush it on -- that's way too thick. Since I'm coating canvas, I'm not trying to achieve a flat finish, just protect the pigments and promote the canvas from a matte to satin sheen.
I typically do three fine coats of undiluted Future in the gun, with the first coat the lightest -- to "break" the canvas and give the other coats something to cling to. It's possible to build to a high gloss finish without hazing or fogging, but that much coverage can be brittle and will break if you fold and pinch the canvas (although it heals again once folded back). It's not so brittle as to break if you roll the canvas over a finger, though. I just want to protect the canvas from damage during stretching and then from minor handling mishaps such as dusting or water droplets, etc. A gentle fingernail won't lift the surface, but you can scratch it off if you're dedicated.
Future is also pretty gentle on the lungs, which is a great advantage.
If I can get the lightweight laminate to stick well, I'll probably prefer it because it will be even more resistant to damage.
FWIW, the Breathing Colour guy says to apply gloss as the first coat and if you want to break it down to satin or matte, you do that by spraying a final coat of matte/gloss mixed together in some reasonable proportion. More than one coat of matte is certainly going to fog the print.
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As Jim says. I like it because it's durable, cheap, doesn't require thinning in my HVLP gun, and dries very very quickly. I don't roll or brush it on -- that's way too thick. Since I'm coating canvas, I'm not trying to achieve a flat finish, just protect the pigments and promote the canvas from a matte to satin sheen.
I typically do three fine coats of undiluted Future in the gun, with the first coat the lightest -- to "break" the canvas and give the other coats something to cling to. It's possible to build to a high gloss finish without hazing or fogging, but that much coverage can be brittle and will break if you fold and pinch the canvas (although it heals again once folded back). My goal is to protect the canvas from damage during stretching and then from minor handling such as dusting or water droplets, etc. A gentle fingernail won't lift the surface, but you can scratch it off if you're dedicated.
Future is also pretty gentle on the lungs, which is a great advantage.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142751\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's interesting, but I gotta say, what about the potential for yellowing and interaction with the inks? I can see if this is used on "Decor" canvas (as the Breathing Color rep called it in the most interrogatory manner of speaking, implying that BC is the creme de la creme), but I'd be concerned if any museums or high level galleries would endorse this as being archival. Granted archival is a relative much debated term and issue, but hey I'm trying to keep an open mind to...
floor finish... hmmm I wonder how PLEDGE would work???
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That's interesting, but I gotta say, what about the potential for yellowing and interaction with the inks? I can see if this is used on "Decor" canvas (as the Breathing Color rep called it in the most interrogatory manner of speaking, implying that BC is the creme de la creme), but I'd be concerned if any museums or high level galleries would endorse this as being archival. Granted archival is a relative much debated term and issue, but hey I'm trying to keep an open mind to...
floor finish... hmmm I wonder how PLEDGE would work???
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142757\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've done a lot of research and concluded that yellowing isn't an issue and that the finish itself is very neutral. I've done some testing to destruction with heat guns and repetitive bending, and I'm pretty satisfied that it is a usable product, albeit eyebrow raising. YMMV, etc.
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I've done a lot of research and concluded that yellowing isn't an issue and that the finish itself is very neutral.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142762\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What is interesting is that a lot of model builders use Future for their products and they too have concluded that it does not yellow over time. Seems that if you walk on it, Future ought to be good for a print that is not used as a floor mat. The cost is about six bucks for 27 oz which is a lot better than paying a buck an ounce for other products.
Just google future floor wax or future floor finish for more information.
Jim
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I've done a lot of research and concluded that yellowing isn't an issue and that the finish itself is very neutral. I've done some testing to destruction with heat guns and repetitive bending, and I'm pretty satisfied that it is a usable product, albeit eyebrow raising. YMMV, etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142762\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I talked to a guy yesterday who does spray a finish and he wouldn't tell me what it is because he's under an "NDA" - very hush-hush, "Top Secret". His discussion about it sounded a lot like Future. The authentication or "bonifide" aspects of acceptability within the realm of archival-ness (Whihelm testing, etc.) requires hard evidence, not anecdotal info. While no doubt model makers find this acceptable, consider that they are putting it on cheap plastic to begin with. No disrespect to model makers, they are not photographers.
We pay through the nose for inks that are archival, and for substrates that equally provide meaningful tabla rasa for our art. How frustrating to work through the entire gamut of firey hoops (lenses, uber expensive cameras) to come to a common floor finish as the final destination for the light to be ultimately filtered back through.
I see the potentiality of Future, and I don't judge it for your use, but I'm looking for the Silver Bullet, and I hope my future, however good it does seem for those using it, is not, "Future"...
(Again, really, no disrespect intended. For that matter, the information is much appreciated).
Mark
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Mark,
I'm with you on this, actually. It's just the best product I've found so far for my needs. I think the low temp lamination will be the ultimate solution -- at least, I hope so. I'm undergoing some studio upheaval (moving, need more space) so it may be awhile before I can delve into lamination testing myself, but I'll be all eyes on the reports of others.
We also have to remember that no matter what anyone promises, things can go awry. The BC rep himself is the survivor of, he says, $300K of refunds that his ex employer had to provide when their all-in-one canvas process started developing cracks after installation. So while he's enthusiastic about BC's product, I still realize that intentions, like checks, can bounce. It'll be weeks of screwing around with the BC products, coating, recoating, overcoating, flexing, burning, UV testing, heat guns, scratching, stretching, spraying with liquids and on and on and on until I feel comfortable putting something on his product with my name on it in someone else's hands.
I don't recommend anyone puts anything out that they haven't tested thoroughly themselves to see just how much abuse it will take before it can fail. Part of my repro "dog and pony show" is showing artists all the possibilities, and why I chose what I did. And I invite them to ruin some canvas so they understand what they'll be getting and what kind of abuse it can take. It's a good show; they gain an understand that what they're paying for isn't just a printer and a guy with a spraygun.
-s
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Mark,
I'm with you on this, actually. It's just the best product I've found so far for my needs. I think the low temp lamination will be the ultimate solution -- at least, I hope so. I'm undergoing some studio upheaval (moving, need more space) so it may be awhile before I can delve into lamination testing myself, but I'll be all eyes on the reports of others.
-s
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142769\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sean - yeah, I hear you - I'm glad you didn't take offense to my feelings about "Future". I deal with a lot of museums and galleries and they want to know the finest details when it comes to longevity. I'd have to do a lot of hard pedaling then swallowing to tell them I use a floor finish, no matter how good...
I am so happy to have learned that a lamination product might be available. I'm going to start researching the thin and good UV coatings. A local sign printing company is interested in helping out with this, so I hope to do some experimenting in the near future. I'll share my info if I come up with something that I feel meets my criteria. Having a high standard doesn't mean it's unattainable, just harder. What was that saying? Perfection isn't impossible, it's just the degree of difficulty. I'm sure that may be true with finishes applied by spraying and rolling, but man, a guy has to know his limitations. I am coming up against mine with this aspect of the process. Lamination here I come!!!
Mark
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Floor polish. Interesting.
I think most of us are printing with pigment inks, aren't we? For art prints that are expected to stay indoors I would think that the actual UV protection probably isn't as important as the physical protection.
I've uploaded some pictures of a laminated print to pbase. I don't know how much they will show but it kept me from home-improvement work so it was a great success already.
The titles should be fairly self-explanatory. The file marked "LAMTexture" is an extreme side-lit example that shows the texture of the laminate itself in all the others I was doing a few minor things to minimize reflections like tilting the subject down a few degrees (as it would be on a wall). I also included a pose of my lovely wife's legs holding up the whole picture to give an idea to the scale. All the files marked "LAMxxx" are from this picture. Note that many are from extreme angles (~ 120 degrees) to show the amount of canvas texture that shows through and as such may look kind of murky. I can only see the laminate itself in specular lighting and it's pretty much invisible otherwise, as are thinner coats of the acrylic when viewed more or less straight on.
Strictly to give some perspective (and not to be used for the purpose of wagering) I took a couple pictures of two other pictures I had kicking around. These are NOT on the same canvas. The laminated print is on Breathing Color and the coated ones are both Epson PP. The epson is less white and more textured.
The two pictures beginning with "GOLD" are from the Golden UVLS varnish applied ineptly by brush (an early experiment and should be tossed). It is a smaller version of the large canvas and shows about how good I could get with brush or roller application. I was not happy with the result and wouldn't consider it salable.
The last two are marked "Spray" and are unfortunately of a different picture. I believe the product was Clear shield but I am not 100% sure and it could be BC or Golden. It's very hard to tell them apart after they have dried. At any rate it was applied with a very cheap HVLP gun and has two coats. As an example it shows about the best I was able to achieve with a water based product. I don't think the results are quite as good as the laminate (and it was a much smaller print at 12x48 vs 30x78) but it would certainly be salable.
Sorry for the long winded explanation......
http://www.pbase.com/douglasjmorgan/lamsamples (http://www.pbase.com/douglasjmorgan/lamsamples)
I'm not trying to keep anyone in suspense and will pass along the details on the lamination product as soon as I can get them.
Thanks
Doug
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Doug,
Great shot, worthy of the print size.
I see some air bubbles under the laminate -- mostly in the low lying valleys of the canvas weave, but some larger areas too -- especially in LamCloseup2 and LAMOblique-Centre, and fairly consistently in other areas on the print. The effect reduces contrast especially in dark areas of the print. This is the same result I got when I tried a 3.0mil PSA laminate on canvas a few weeks ago. Since you're getting it too, it's probably a systemic issue with PSA on canvas. I couldn't fix it even with full body pressure on a 2" brayer.
My hope with the thin hot lamination process is that the plastic will soften and deform to meet the canvas even in the low areas of the weave, thus preserving gamut and DMAX on the entire surface. A hot roller laminator might be able to make it work, a hardbed screw or hydraulic press would probably be able to do it, and a vacuum hot press would certainly be able to do it. When the time comes, I'll probably take something down to DryTac and have them prove that their stuff can do what I want -- or not.
I may be able to get some shots of my canvas experiments up in the next day or two. Thanks very much for sharing, Doug -- it's incredibly helpful to be able to see!
-s
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Floor polish. Interesting.
I think most of us are printing with pigment inks, aren't we? For art prints that are expected to stay indoors I would think that the actual UV protection probably isn't as important as the physical protection.
I've uploaded some pictures of a laminated print to pbase. I don't know how much they will show but it kept me from home-improvement work so it was a great success already.
The titles should be fairly self-explanatory. The file marked "LAMTexture" is an extreme side-lit example that shows the texture of the laminate itself in all the others I was doing a few minor things to minimize reflections like tilting the subject down a few degrees (as it would be on a wall). I also included a pose of my lovely wife's legs holding up the whole picture to give an idea to the scale. All the files marked "LAMxxx" are from this picture. Note that many are from extreme angles (~ 120 degrees) to show the amount of canvas texture that shows through and as such may look kind of murky. I can only see the laminate itself in specular lighting and it's pretty much invisible otherwise, as are thinner coats of the acrylic when viewed more or less straight on.
Strictly to give some perspective (and not to be used for the purpose of wagering) I took a couple pictures of two other pictures I had kicking around. These are NOT on the same canvas. The laminated print is on Breathing Color and the coated ones are both Epson PP. The epson is less white and more textured.
The two pictures beginning with "GOLD" are from the Golden UVLS varnish applied ineptly by brush (an early experiment and should be tossed). It is a smaller version of the large canvas and shows about how good I could get with brush or roller application. I was not happy with the result and wouldn't consider it salable.
The last two are marked "Spray" and are unfortunately of a different picture. I believe the product was Clear shield but I am not 100% sure and it could be BC or Golden. It's very hard to tell them apart after they have dried. At any rate it was applied with a very cheap HVLP gun and has two coats. As an example it shows about the best I was able to achieve with a water based product. I don't think the results are quite as good as the laminate (and it was a much smaller print at 12x48 vs 30x78) but it would certainly be salable.
Sorry for the long winded explanation......
http://www.pbase.com/douglasjmorgan/lamsamples (http://www.pbase.com/douglasjmorgan/lamsamples)
I'm not trying to keep anyone in suspense and will pass along the details on the lamination product as soon as I can get them.
Thanks
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey Doug -
Thanks for the work of posting the closeups. It's still pretty hard to tell what's what, but there is an idea at least.
The whole thing image (http://www.pbase.com/douglasjmorgan/image/86402045) does show the print is definitely snappy snappy. My question is about how stiff it made the print and did that affect stretching it over the stretcher bars? I'm guessing it had to be a thin laminate like 1.7mil - or greater. That's what will be interesting - knowing those details.
Thanks again-
Mark
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My hope with the thin hot lamination process is that the plastic will soften and deform to meet the canvas even in the low areas of the weave, thus preserving gamut and DMAX on the entire surface. A hot roller laminator might be able to make it work, a hardbed screw or hydraulic press would probably be able to do it, and a vacuum hot press would certainly be able to do it. When the time comes, I'll probably take something down to DryTac and have them prove that their stuff can do what I want -- or not.
-s
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142795\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sean - I'll be interested in seeing that test too. I'm concerned about color shift with the hotter laminates, but hey gotta try. I'm going to see if I can get some testing done next week as well.
Have you ever experimented with liquid laminating?
I've heard the expensive machines do a great job ---
Nobody around here has one though.
Mark
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Mark (maybe we should just go down to the coffee shop),
I drymount many prints using Hot Press(brand) Archival Tissue at 190F in a softbed press for 60-90 seconds, and the prints from the HP z3100 don't shift noticeably in colour. I haven't profiled before/after, but over at least a hundred prints, many of which I am intimately familiar with (and fairly demanding about) the colour of, I see no perceptible difference. Since the low temp laminate I'm looking at also is rated for 180-190F, I don't see heat as the gating factor in success. Your inkset may vary, blah, blah, blah.
I will indeed post more when I get some canvas hot lamination tests done.
-s
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Sean:
I see what you mean about the air in the pores of the canvas. Note that the tree branch is not air bubbles and is the colour of the bark. I would think though that it would be part of the process for any lamination unless there was so much adhesive (or way too much heat) to turn the coating liquid. With the epson inks at least heat is bad.
While I'm sure there is some effect from the laminate I don't think it's obvious looking at the print with the naked eye. In our tests we've actually noticed too much contrast in the dark areas, dark greens looking black for example, and have had to lighten a few prints considerably to closer match laminated canvas to paper prints: The matte canvas is very dull straight out of the printer as I'm sure you know and changes dramatically when coated or laminated. As a further note these are also taken from angles greater than 90 degrees and thus look low contrast I think the straight on pics don't show nearly as much of an effect.
Unfortunately the only heat laminated print I have on hand is a reject art paper to foam core and I don't think it will tell us anything. I managed to sell the last of the heat laminated canvas prints I had. I didn't really look at them beyond the obvious colour changes but I wouldn't expect it to be any better. The last batch was done in a vacuum press at low temperature. In addition to the deal-breaking colour shifts the gloss laminate was very sparkly and not to my liking while the semi-gloss one seemed a little murky. And no, I don't recall the name of the laminating machine or laminate itself. It's a personal problem and I have trouble with the grandkids names as well even though I only have three.
As a comparison one of the things I do not like about the water based coatings is that they tend to fill the weave of the canvas too much -- the pictures marked "spray" for example should have more texture visible since the underlaying canvas has more texture than the laminated canvas but does not appear that way. The mineral spirit varnishes seem better in this respect.
Mark:
The water based acrylic prints are much stiffer as I think the coating ends up far thicker. Unfortunately I think this is just the nature of the beast as I think it takes a couple fairly heavy coats to get an even finish. I haven't actually stretched any of the laminated prints myself as they are all now being farmed out for cheaper than we could do them ourselves. I asked the local stretcher who did a couple for a recent art show for me and he said they were easy. I've stretched enough of the coated ones to know that it is not easy to stretch those by hand. Most of ours are now stretched in the same city as the lamination, which is also the subject of that particular panorama, as it is much cheaper to ship them rolled and some of the galleries want them unstretched.
Everything is a compromise though and I am always open to trying something new if there's a chance it will make things better/faster/cheaper/quicker. A year in a fibreglass shop with a chopper gun leaking catalyst a long time ago left me ultra sensitive to certain chemicals as well, super glue being one, so I like the fact that there is no exposure to anything. At the moment the laminate fits with the market plan and the clients seem to like it.
If you folks think of any sort of camera trick to better illustrate the product I can accommodate. I'll post more details as soon as I get them....
Doug
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Mark:
The water based acrylic prints are much stiffer as I think the coating ends up far thicker. Unfortunately I think this is just the nature of the beast as I think it takes a couple fairly heavy coats to get an even finish. I haven't actually stretched any of the laminated prints myself as they are all now being farmed out for cheaper than we could do them ourselves. I asked the local stretcher who did a couple for a recent art show for me and he said they were easy. I've stretched enough of the coated ones to know that it is not easy to stretch those by hand. Most of ours are now stretched in the same city as the lamination, which is also the subject of that particular panorama, as it is much cheaper to ship them rolled and some of the galleries want them unstretched.
Everything is a compromise though and I am always open to trying something new if there's a chance it will make things better/faster/cheaper/quicker. A year in a fibreglass shop with a chopper gun leaking catalyst a long time ago left me ultra sensitive to certain chemicals as well, super glue being one, so I like the fact that there is no exposure to anything. At the moment the laminate fits with the market plan and the clients seem to like it.
If you folks think of any sort of camera trick to better illustrate the product I can accommodate. I'll post more details as soon as I get them....
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Doug - yeah, man - anything cyanoacrylate is murder - can give you heart palpitations too...
Knowing the laminate is less thick than the dual coat GG2 finish is good - I'm definitely headed for the sign printers Monday
Not sure if other closeups will help as just doing it will make a lot of difference - but thanks so much for what you've already done.
If Sean is right that the Z3100 inkset doesn't shift noticeably with hot lam - that could be an area for me to experiment with. Others absolutely swear by the sprayed Glamour Gloss coatings and if I can find someone locally to do it I might investigate that as well. We definitely have quality now with rolling, but it is thickish and definitely not fun.
Mark
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Mark:
To be fair I should add that with all my negative comments about the heat lamination it may very well be the operators I've dealt with. I've had paper prints drymounted, I assume with heat, without incident by one of the local picture framing outfits for years but two different places have wrecked prints laminating them in the last year or so. I do live outside of a small (125K) city famous for sub-par wages (sunshine tax they call it) and it may very well be that the problem is low skill levels, certainly they don't seem old enough to have the experience someone like Sean seems to have
I am not aware of any particular heat problems with ultra chrome ink compared to the HP pigment inks (or the canon) and the only difference I've read about is better water resistance which shouldn't make any difference for this.
Someone local here was recently raving about BC as well but I honestly can't tell much of a difference once they are applied. With the same person doing the application I would bet even the Future would look the same. I think Golden's application advice is better than what BC used to post but I haven't checked back in quite a while so it may have been updated since then. Clear shield makes a version specifically for spraying but I'm not sure what the difference is over the brush on.
Doug
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Mark:
To be fair I should add that with all my negative comments about the heat lamination it may very well be the operators I've dealt with. I've had paper prints drymounted, I assume with heat, without incident by one of the local picture framing outfits for years but two different places have wrecked prints laminating them in the last year or so. I do live outside of a small (125K) city famous for sub-par wages (sunshine tax they call it) and it may very well be that the problem is low skill levels, certainly they don't seem old enough to have the experience someone like Sean seems to have
I am not aware of any particular heat problems with ultra chrome ink and compared to the HP pigment inks the only difference I've read about is better water resistance which shouldn't make any difference for this.
Someone local here was recently raving about BC as well but I honestly can't tell much of a difference once they are applied. With the same person doing the application I would bet even the Future would look the same. I think Golden's application advice is better than what BC used to post but I haven't checked back in quite a while so it may have been updated since then. Clear shield makes a version specifically for spraying but I'm not sure what the difference is over the brush on.
Doug
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=142812\")
I think I'm just going to get one of these and be done with it:
[a href=\"http://www.drytac.ca/hypress.asp]http://www.drytac.ca/hypress.asp[/url]
Mark
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I think I'm just going to get one of these and be done with it:
http://www.drytac.ca/hypress.asp (http://www.drytac.ca/hypress.asp)
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142818\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm looking at a new printer soon and will be too poor for anything like that. I'm also a panorama printer so even the larger one would be too short for the bigger pieces. 98 inches? It's a toy!
Doug
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Kapco has got something they call a canvas laminate.
https://www.kapco.com/cms/site/4e335a2443f96bcc/index.html (https://www.kapco.com/cms/site/4e335a2443f96bcc/index.html)
I really hate to buy a whole roll just to try it. I guess I will have to get after them again about samples.
Doyle
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Kapco has got something they call a canvas laminate.
https://www.kapco.com/cms/site/4e335a2443f96bcc/index.html (https://www.kapco.com/cms/site/4e335a2443f96bcc/index.html)
I really hate to buy a whole roll just to try it. I guess I will have to get after them again about samples.
Doyle
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Interesting - thanks. 3 mil is pretty thick though...
Mark
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Hi Doug,
I live in the Lower Mainland and just got the Z3100ps 44". Who do you use for the cold laminates? I haven't tried printing on canvas yet but having someone do a cold laminate would be a great resource
thanks!
Stewart
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Hi Stewart
It's through Artistat on West Hastings (www.artistat.net). Their invoice says Satinex which I believe is a trademarked name for MediaShield Satinex but I'm waiting for confirmation. I was going to wait before I had the full details but my understanding now is that it's a roll fed system that uses at least one heated roller. More details to come.....
They should have about 16 kg's of canvas to do for us at the moment. I deal with them through my guy in Vancouver (I'm based outside Kelowna) and from what I've seen they are very fast and do an excellent job. I have no other connection with them and have never been there in person.
I'm looking for a larger printer myself but past experience with HP leaves me on the cool side. On the other hand Epson seems to have fallen a full step behind. And then there's Canon but I think the model I'd be interested in hasn't even been announced yet (8100). Where did you buy the HP? Not sure there's even a dealer up here.
Doug
Hi Doug,
I live in the Lower Mainland and just got the Z3100ps 44". Who do you use for the cold laminates? I haven't tried printing on canvas yet but having someone do a cold laminate would be a great resource
thanks!
Stewart
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143698\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I'm looking for a larger printer myself but past experience with HP leaves me on the cool side. On the other hand Epson seems to have fallen a full step behind. And then there's Canon but I think the model I'd be interested in hasn't even been announced yet (8100). Where did you buy the HP? Not sure there's even a dealer up here.
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Doug,
There are local dealers in Vancouver but I got a better deal online, PM me if you want their contact info. They're based out of the east coast. I also have a paper dealer just across the street from me and I'm trying to get a smaller roll of canvas to try.
Regards,
Stu
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I had a trial piece cold laminated yesterday with a 3 Mil Satin and it dulled the colors down sufficiently to make me doubt it very much.
I looked at the gloss laminate on one of their samples and it looked like an icky shiny banner sign.
When I showed them a print with Breathing color properly applied they freaked out and asked me what I was doing there (why would I want to even try anything else).
After explaining the issues, I wanted out of there.
A local framing shop also wanted to know "how to" with the rolled Glamour Gloss finish.
The Glamour Gloss is tricky to get technique down just right via rolling, but those who have seen it have been very impressed. Enough to be asking all kinds of questions.
Oh well. Back to the drawing board on this.
Laminating may be good for some, but I found the local sign shop not so crazy about experimenting - can't say that I blame them.
M
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Well I decided to put in another request for a sample or short roll of the Kapco product.
Doyle
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Mark and Stewart --- I sent you both PM's but they do not show up in the "sent" folder. Let me know if I need to resend them ---- Thanks Doug Morgan
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Mark and Stewart --- I sent you both PM's but they do not show up in the "sent" folder. Let me know if I need to resend them ---- Thanks Doug Morgan
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=143832\")
Doug - got your PM - reply sent.
I found an interesting HP link that lists recommendations for laminates with their products.
The Drytac Satinex is listed in many applications, but this page does not mention canvas and a laminate:
[a href=\"http://h41186.www4.hp.com/country/us/en/supplies/laminates.html?viewAll=1]http://h41186.www4.hp.com/country/us/en/su....html?viewAll=1[/url]
Thanks-
Mark
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Hi Folks:
I don't want to drag this off topic, but just an FYI:
It's always handy getting a WHMIS chart for a product, because even "water-based" products can contain hazards.
When I worked on wildlife rabies research (~16 years), one of the products we used for disinfection didn't HAVE a WHMIS chart even though it was listed as potentially carcinogenic because it was lumped under the same category as household bleach...
Mike.
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For those interested in the lamination solution, the picture samples I provided above are from a Seal Image 6000 laminator. Apparently the laminate itself is not the Satinex as I indicated but another brand that they decline to identify. Trade secrets I guess. At any rate I'm happy with it and they do a great job.
Here's the lamintor itself: http://www.visutech.com/Seallaminator.html (http://www.visutech.com/Seallaminator.html).
Good luck and hope everyone has a happy thanksgiving and remembers the true meaning of the day, Martin Frobisher's thanks for surviving his third voyage to the new world........
Doug
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For those interested in the lamination solution, the picture samples I provided above are from a Seal Image 6000 laminator. Apparently the laminate itself is not the Satinex as I indicated but another brand that they decline to identify. Trade secrets I guess. At any rate I'm happy with it and they do a great job.
Here's the lamintor itself: http://www.visutech.com/Seallaminator.html (http://www.visutech.com/Seallaminator.html).
Good luck and hope everyone has a happy thanksgiving and remembers the true meaning of the day, Martin Frobisher's thanks for surviving his third voyage to the new world........
Doug
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This is a disappointment Doug - too bad they won't say what they're using. I understand work product, trade secrets, etc., but in this aspect of archival-ness I would think that would be a problem. If they won't disclose the name of the product there could be a reason for it. Frequently sign shops pooh-pooh the archival quest mainly because their product often ends up on the trade show floor after a week long trade show. Much of that material, although in some ways exhibiting UV protection (because signs go outdoors) is not necessarily compatible with archival standards and the substrates it's put on. Again, I question why it is that we seek the highest quality of light through optics and sensors, lay down images with 200 year longevity inks on high quality substrates only to squash plastic on it or flood goop over it. If they won't say what it is, who's to even guess the longevity of the product or even suppose the interaction with the inks and the canvas in the long term?
In 35 years of being in the fine arts, much of it on the museum level, I've seen this issue come back and bite the best. You may like the look of it, but how can you guarantee the quality in years if you don't even know what the product is?
All this of course is said with due respect, out of concern. But hey, everyone has a different approach. You like it and it may be fine for you. I just find it ironic, again, after all the work of getting there with the most acute sense of concern for the materials to be finally at the mercy of a mysterious top coat applied as a guarded secret? It did work for Stradivarius...
But thanks for trying to get the answer for us-
Best wishes-
Mark
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Mark:
I don't think it's much of an issue really.
They found a product and procedure that works and don't want to give up an edge to the competition. They'd have to go out of their way to find a non-UV stable product and it would be a short-lived gamble to use it. One summer in my area at least would turn it yellow. If I was using dye ink I'd want to know of course since the coating would be probably the most important component of the archival aspect. I suspect also that my first statement posted in this thread above may actually be the right product
If I can find my soapbox....... ah, here it is. With UV-stable pigment inks and the proper medium I'm not sure how much additional UV protection really helps anyway. It seems to make a large difference in Wilhelm testing but past 100 year longevity I'm not sure the additional years would really mean much in a real environment since all they are testing is UV resistance with an intense light bulb and extrapolating. They are not accounting for anything in the environment other than light (and maybe not the full spectrum of that even). I would think even cleaning products used around the artwork would take a much higher toll after a couple decades than additional sunlight, especially ammonia for the water based coatings. The pigment inks also seem to be somewhat soluble in ammonia. As an example, my wife's family has a habit of using windex on practically everything and I would suspect that would be a bigger threat than a sunny window. What about a product like endust? Would a couple coats of that protect a canvas? Anyway, I'll step off the soap box now.....
Send along the sample if you want to do your own testing.....
Doug
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I've done a lot of research and concluded that yellowing isn't an issue and that the finish itself is very neutral. I've done some testing to destruction with heat guns and repetitive bending, and I'm pretty satisfied that it is a usable product, albeit eyebrow raising. YMMV, etc.
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Thanks for the info Sean!
I remember Livick saying that clearshield slightly yellows in time but then stabilizes without further yellowing. I can attest to that with some prints I applied clearshield to over a year ago. The yellowing is very slight with a warming effect.
I am definitely going to order some of that flooring varnish!
Charlie
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I saw some Paul Shambroom prints on canvas in Chicago recently.
They were apparently from 8x10 negatives or slides (I would guess negs.) They were about 3'x5', on canvas. Labelled as pigment prints with varnish.
They were *stunning*. It would be interesting to know the specific process and finish if anyone is familiar with his work.
Archival pigmented inkjet on canvas with varnish, 63X38 inches.
Best,
Michael
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I have been doing some testing recently using film over-laminate on canvas. Initial tests are very promising. I think I have got the pressure, speed and temperature down and am just testing different laminates now.
The look I am getting now I must say is way better than liquid coatings expect if one wants a really flat/matte finish. I have not found any film that is that flat looking
What is really impressing me is how much more the canvas texture shows with film over-laminate. I see now where the liquid coating flatten out too much and it filling (covering) in the hollows of the canvas more than the ridges, where the film is doing an even coat on both the hollows and the ridges. And no, I don't see any milkyness in the hollows.
Doyle
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I have been doing some testing recently using film over-laminate on canvas. Initial tests are very promising. I think I have got the pressure, speed and temperature down and am just testing different laminates now.
The look I am getting now I must say is way better than liquid coatings expect if one wants a really flat/matte finish. I have not found any film that is that flat looking
What is really impressing me is how much more the canvas texture shows with film over-laminate. I see now where the liquid coating flatten out too much and it filling (covering) in the hollows of the canvas more than the ridges, where the film is doing an even coat on both the hollows and the ridges. And no, I don't see any milkyness in the hollows.
Doyle
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Ah a new convert!
If you are referring to the pictures I posted far above in this thread they are heavily magnified and taken at an oblique angle. The effect does not show up when when viewed normally. That was also an early piece and I have not taken the loupe to any recent ones though I probably should.
The truly great thing is that they can be laminated so much faster than any sort of coating and taken immediately to the stretcher. There is no way we could do the volume of printing with a water-based coating.
So far we've done somewhere over a 1000 feet of canvas, maybe as much as 2000, and the only wrecked piece (and only one) was due to some sort of defect in the outside of a new roll of laminate.
Doug
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Doug
Are you doing the laminating yourself or are you sending it out?
Doyle
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Never could find anything locally for laminating - all the tests were duds.
Have managed to work out the Glamour Gloss rolling technique however, and aside from the time involved (excellent point Doug) the results are amazing. Everyone seeing the rolled finish comments and asks about - it's in it's own league entirely. Something about a properly rolled finish is luminous and rich. Several frame shops have grilled me about "how to". Trial and error and proper mixing, heating the distilled water and even pressure - that's about it. After all is said and done, worth the pain.
Mark
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Mark:
I'd agree but only if I were doing one at a time or just for myself. It doesn't scale up and to make it pay there would have to be a very large premium over laminate and in fact there is none. Trying to speed up the process results in wrecked prints or sub-par results. I've sent the laminator as much as 3 rolls of printed canvas at a time and it's ready for the stretcher in a matter of a couple hours. In my limited experience with stretching both methods the laminated prints seem easier to stretch since the coating is no where near as thick and is much more even. We send out most of the stretching as well as the laminating so I don't do much.
The sign companies have some dip/dunk methods that are faster than hand rolling but I don't think it looks better than the laminate or is as quick and it's not something for someone working out of their basement or a small shop. The samples I've seen have a sort of rubbery look since they are soaked in acrylic.
Doyle:
All the laminating is sent out to a company in Vancouver BC: I think the details are above but PM me if you want the contact info. I've never actually been to their premises and don't know them personally so the usual -- no affiliation, not responsible, blah, blah, blah. They do an excellent job though.
The key is that they have figured out the right combination that results in virtually no color shifts. They are also pretty secretive about the setup and judging from the local samples I understand why as the others I've tried resulted in a warming of the image that is not appealing for landscapes and results in case of the dingies for the skies.
Note I use a matte canvas (formerly piezo pro, now breathing color) with a gloss or semi-gloss laminate applied and there is an increase in contrast but virtually no change in tone.
I actually have a rejected proof on hand that I'd be happy to cut up and parcel out but you'd need to PM me with an address. Same offer if you haven't given in to the darkside, Mark.
Doug
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Doug
Actually I am setup to do this myself (or for others for that matter) so I am not looking for someone else to do my laminating. And since they don't want to say what product they are using I don't need to contact them.
I am pretty sure I know what they are using. Have you noticed any yellowing given the material that they are probably using?
Another thing is I hope they are not using Intelicoat's Florex as that is being discontinued.
However there are two laminates that I have tested that seem to work beautiful. Yes they are premium priced materials. The cheaper thermal or heat assists laminates do not conform to the canvas very well and are not as optically clears. I only issue for me is I wish I could get more of a matte look when I need it.
Doyle
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Doug
Actually I am setup to do this myself (or for others for that matter) so I am not looking for someone else to do my laminating. And since they don't want to say what product they are using I don't need to contact them.
I am pretty sure I know what they are using. Have you noticed any yellowing given the material that they are probably using?
Another thing is I hope they are not using Intelicoat's Florex as that is being discontinued.
However there are two laminates that I have tested that seem to work beautiful. Yes they are premium priced materials. The cheaper thermal or heat assists laminates do not conform to the canvas very well and are not as optically clears. I only issue for me is I wish I could get more of a matte look when I need it.
Doyle
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There hasn't been any yellowing. I think when I mentioned warming we are talking about the same thing. If so I've had laminating done by a few local sources and the heat (or laminate itself) is giving it a warm or yellowish/amberish look. It would probably be fine for things like portraits but I don't like the look on my skies. Big white puffy clouds look dingy and some pinkish twilight skies turn a much less attractive orange tone.
The laminate my source is using is available both glossy and matte but I don't have a sample of the matte on hand. Only one of our outlets has requested matte so we haven't used it much. The gloss is not exceptionally strong partly at least from the texture. It looks a little sparkly if laid out horizontally but vertically it's more of a semi-gloss, if this makes any sense. All these technical terms -- dingy, sparkly, pinkish.
If you want a sample to compare to or at least save me from making up more words, let me know: won't cost me more than a stamp to send you a swatch.
Doug
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Doug
Maybe we will have to trade samples. Soon as I get a full roll of this I am going to make up sample pieces for anyone that wants one.
Like I said I am really impressed with one of these laminates. I have never coated any canvas with a liquid that looked anywhere nears as good as this laminate. The texture of the canvas is showing so much better with this film laminate than anything I have ever done either spraying or roller applying liquid laminating.
The only issue I am have is that neither one of the laminates I am impressed with comes in 60"-61" rolls. Occasionally I am printing this wide of rolls for clients and this was one of the chief reasons for using film based laminates.
Doyle
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The 11880 is going to make an impact for sure so 60 inches makes sense. I would have bought one the last go around if I was printing currency rather than just pictures. The laminate we are using now is wider than the 44 inches we need so I haven't asked what the width is.
PM'd you.... thanks
Doug
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PM sent Doug-
Do not underestimate the quality achievable with Glamour Gloss.
Killer time consumer though, as discussed.
Man, you really know how to hi-jack a thread, eh?
Happy New Year!!!
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Doug Morgan very kindly sent me sample swatches of the lamination (gloss and matte) over images printed on canvas. This was most appreciated because actually having the work in hand to be able to put under various lighting conditions makes the discussion a proof-in-the-pudding one rather than just banter.
I have concluded that for my purposes (Fine Art on Canvas) that the time consuming pain in the a$$ process of rolling glamour gloss on images printed on Breathing Color Chromata White canvas is significantly superior (hands down) for my purposes.
My take on the samples of the hot/warm laminating process Doug sent me is:
The gloss lamination allows the image to show through fine, but the glare is there and it's odd how the light hits it (sparkly) I think mainly because the laminate wraps around the texture of the canvas and reflects the light the way a jewel or faceted prism does, especially under gallery lighting conditions and at various angles. The Matte is actually very good in surface and lack of odd reflectivity, but it clouds the image and for my purposes, significantly so.
It is as I suspected. But I definitely understand how these coatings would work in a professional or commercial situation where the workflow needs to be quick and easy.
Regarding the Glamour Gloss, in contrast, the coating is luminous, and almost glowing. It is smooth, actually going down in and filling, rather than standing on the surface. Since the evenness is not that , (an uneven quality results in a hand made effect that lends itself to the idea and aspect of and "art print"), and indeed, it is invested of the hand made, almost absurdly so by the time all is done and the object is hanging on the wall.
I have had several prints sprayed with Premier Art Eco Shield and the results have been acceptable - the canvas prints don't appear to have anything between them and the viewer.
The Premier Art spray appears to be a viable alternative and is quick and easy.
There is some luminous magic in that Breathing Color Glamour Gloss however - some kind of odd alchemy for sure, that for certain images makes them rich and luxurious.
My conclusion:
Many finishes available, and in every instance:
Use the right tool for the job.
Again, thank you Doug for sending the swatches, and I'm glad to see you have found the right coating that works for you for your purposes.
Mark
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Update:
I get a few email inquiries from this thread so I thought I should post an update as some things have changed:
We have stopped laminating the canvas prints after a string of application disasters and are now spraying prints. An apparently bad shipment of media from drytac and an aging laminator combined to wreck two large orders. I guess it's a good thing that the defects are immediately noticeably though why they would continue to run through the rest of the batch when something is wrong I have no idea.
No problems with the laminate product if it gets properly applied and a laminated piece has a few advantages that none of the coatings seem able to match --> nearly indestructible and never cracks during stretching (at all). Only downside we've found is that the tension seems to loosen a bit over time but since ours were only laminated on one side it is easy to tighten with a bit of water and sunlight.
Currently we are having the pieces sprayed by two different sources but are also waiting some test results for an additional lamination product that is something like a combination of spray and lam as we need something for commercial locations.
Note that in answer to one of Mark's comments on the sparkle the laminate is textured and reflects light differently when layed flat than when hung on a wall.
We are outsourcing the spraying as I don't have time, space, or interest in doing it myself. Printing is no problem as I can do something else while it's going on.
One person is using a water-based acrylic (bc) and another is using the solvent based Clear Jet. We are having some problems with cracking from both which was not an issue at all with laminate. I haven't actually seen a finished sprayed result with the acrylic as the prints that are supposed to come back to me keep getting sold but compared to prior rolling efforts I prefer the clear jet. Very thin and completely even with a nice low luster for the semigloss and the gloss really looks nice with the same sort of sheen as premium luster. Delicate though and kids, don't spray this at home.
An interesting side issue with the acrylic coatings is that in investigating the cracking I was looking back over a bunch of old stretched canvases that have been sitting in the back room for a year or two and found that I could not really tell the three different water-based acrylic coatings apart by visual quality alone.
take care...........
Doug
PS: In searching for a Minneapolis canvas stretcher (see other post) I came across white house color (www.whcc.com) and though they won't stretch my canvas according to the website their canvas prints are laminated rather than coated. I would expect it's for the same reason we were -- high volume / low labour. I have no idea what their product is or looks like.