Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Happyfish on August 29, 2007, 11:09:45 pm
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all I wanted was the idea of white ink and thought that would be cool ?
guess some people dont like conversation and thought this was a troll ?
sorry to those that thought it was cool idea ?
man to start a conversation and be called clueless and told I am a troll etc..
when people do not even know me
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I agree. This would also eliminate gloss differential.
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I agree. This would also eliminate gloss differential.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=136307\")
You need a thick layer of an opaque white to get rid of a warm paper color. If that opaque white is a cool white anyway as my silkscreen printing experience tells me the more opaque the warmer. That kind of ink isn't glossy either. The amount of ink/pigment needed will be hard to get through a water based inkjet head and will dry slow. The easiest way to create cool white snow on warm paper is to start with cool white paper and print the border warm. Printers think like that. Qimage has the convenient tools for that. A warm matte in the frame is another solution.
There are white inks on solvent inkjet printers and UV curing printers like the Durst. They spit larger droplets from big heads and often the real white fond if needed has to be printed first before the other colors follow. The result is nice for signs though.
There are white textile inkjet inks as far as I know and there is a water based soluble glass (waterglass) ink that's white and has been used on an Epson 4800 to print on glass and rigid materials to be heated to 150 C afterwards for curing. Seen little of it after the show 3 years ago where it was demonstrated.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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not worth it
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funny so many views and nobody thinks this would be cool ?
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funny so many views and nobody thinks this would be cool ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think part of the problem is that it's an unfamiliar concept for inkjet. Most people don't know what you'd want to do with it. And of course it's a real problem for drivers and/or RIP software, and for the hardware.
It seems to me that you could go a couple of ways. You could have a really opaque white to use to try to create a consistent "background color" regardless of substrate color. This implies trying to place white ink dots wherever there aren't color ink dots on the page. This would put a premium on the accuracy of dot placement because with a really opaque ink if you overlap an existing color dot you change the HSL value of the effected pixel in interesting ways. And you could never cover all the paper showing between dots because you can't make the ink "wrap around" the color dots -- with non-overlapping circular dots (which assumes a lot about dot gain all by itself) you end up with little cross-shaped bits of substrate showing through. Even then this would probably use a surprising amount of white ink.
Else, you could use a fairly transparent white. This the RIP would use to replace the "photo ink" colors like light-magenta and light-cyan. The one white ink could be used with any ink to "lighten" it. IFF you could accurately place the white ink dot over the color ink dot in a controlled way. The advantage is you'd get "light everything" with just the one white ink which would actually save the manufacturer a bunch of nozzles while increasing the smoothness of the print.
Both of these choices would be hell on driver and RIP software designers, and both would require extremely accurate dot placement which is probably not available yet with today's inkjet mechanisms.
Still, it's an interesting idea. But I can see why none of the manufacturers has jumped on it yet.
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White would be nice for printing transparencies. Other than that, can't imagine a real need. There's hundreds of substrates to choose from, but only one set of inks you can lay down. Painting white down too would make the substrate almost... unimportant... except for texture. I suppose if our printers had started out this way, it would be natural. But given the variety of papers there are, and what we can do with our pigments (especially creatively), I don't see a big need.
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not worth it
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Couldn't you just print or image of the mountain with white peaks on a brighter white paper and carefully tone the rest of your image just a shade warmer? Then you just need a a natural rag mat.
I suppose you end up using an OB paper that you might not have wanted to.
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I dont see it as painting white down as a complete layer ?
imagine a shot of a mtn with snow peaks on a stormy day and to have that white be white but yet the print is on a nice non OB paper ?
if I wanted the white and I had to print it on white paper I might loose other parts
I wonder would it have to be pure thick white ? or just whiter or enough to help lighten the part ? I dont know its kind of out past what we have thought of ?
but to say its not needed ? I dont know I think is short sited really we have white in this world !!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136491\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ask an offset printer what he thinks about printing white on cream colored papers especially if it has to be done inline with the CMYK towers. Ask him what is better, offset white or silkscreen white? He has the means to do it and it is also much more suitable on an offset machine than on an inkjet printer. 90% will answer that it is a silkscreen job.
If needed the silkscreen printer can add an inkjet coating on that white as well, like it is done on printable CD-ROMs.
The amount of white ink needed makes it impossible to run it at the same time with the other inks if both inks are water based inkjet inks. Underneath any CcMmY droplet there should be white at 100% inklimit. And that white has to be as opaque as possible and loaded with OBA to get any effect. Either you have to throttle the colors to avoid bleeding or you get bleeding.
Apart from printing on transparant foil there is hardly a need to do it because other solutions exist like printing the paper color up to the edges. A thing I do more often as artists use off-white or grey colored papers.
Get some white ink and a brush and check what you have to apply on inkjet paper to get the effect you want. Gloss difference on glossy papers and soaking on matt papers counted.
In my view it is mainly a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
Ernst Dinkla
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I've been working with the Durst + VuTek UV curable, white colorant machines since their inception. Since UV Curable can "fry" a ink splotch on just about anything (glass, metal, wood, gatorboard, etc.) this process has little to worry about as for as dot gain is concerned. More importantly, it is the non-white materials that present the need for a white ink. One company did a big campaign where they printed their logo (which contains white) on a section of a wood fence. White on wood, black gatorboard or brushed aluminum looks really cool! But people with these printers aren't using white that much due to the learning curve on behalf of the designers and the need for shops to educate them.
Printer manufacturers have long considered putting white in signage printers but held back due to the low demand and high level of complications. Durst introduced their white colorant printer as a means of entering the UV curable printer market with a splash. VuTek and others reluctantly followed suit to give Durst some competition. Printing with white is a hot and growing topic right now but the real world usage and demand isn't very high.
Bringing white to desktop ink printers with pigmented inks is considerably more difficult. In addition, the vast majority of inkjet media is some variety of white which lessons the need for white ink. Existing users wanting bright whites on image areas can print on bright white paper and print the cream (or whatever) paper color outside of the image area. Looking at it from the manufacturer's perspective, I wouldn't realistically expect this technology to reach the desktop anytime soon.
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Kodak had a little A3+ ribbon cartridge printer driven by Best (EFI) with a strange hybrid driver somewhat 4 channel , somewhat multi channel.
You simply plugged in up to 4 cartridges in the bays of your choice, white, gold, silver 032, etc and used the base CMYK for the offset side which were indeed colorants up to most offset specs.
This proves that there are different ways to run inks including white.
Believe me it can be done on inkjets too. Yet thick coating would be a special head, also doable. So if you want a coating head it's doable. If you want a white ink head , that too is doable. Configuring the driver is a challenge but then worth it if the demand is high enough.
Therein lies the problem. R&D for limited demand puts the price required on the inks to be quite excessive. It's as you all know not the cost of the ink itself , but to have a return on it sets the price quite high on such configurations.
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neat idea!
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Neil I totally remember that printer now
thanks neil you are one of the guys I always get good info from
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Kodak had a little A3+ ribbon cartridge printer driven by Best (EFI) with a strange hybrid driver somewhat 4 channel , somewhat multi channel.
You simply plugged in up to 4 cartridges in the bays of your choice, white, gold, silver 032, etc and used the base CMYK for the offset side which were indeed colorants up to most offset specs.
This proves that there are different ways to run inks including white.
Believe me it can be done on inkjets too. Yet thick coating would be a special head, also doable. So if you want a coating head it's doable. If you want a white ink head , that too is doable. Configuring the driver is a challenge but then worth it if the demand is high enough.
Therein lies the problem. R&D for limited demand puts the price required on the inks to be quite excessive. It's as you all know not the cost of the ink itself , but to have a return on it sets the price quite high on such configurations.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136577\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The subject is: we want white ink !!!
It's doable as long as you do not expect the same inkjet head to run along with the rest and all together laying down the illuminated picture on a grey background in one go. One way or another it has to be fixed immediately like the ribbon printer does, the UV curing printer, the solid wax inkjet printer and more of that kind. Preferably with a thicker layer than the inkjet printers we talk about here.
There are the Roland PC 60 etc ribbon models, intended for vinyl marking foil but usable on paper. Silver, gold, white, was or resin base you name it and up to two feet wide.
I doubt he is looking for a solution like that.
I think the Tektronixs solid wax printers could run white ink, the technology allows it.
Ernst Dinkla
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I have this killer shot of a couple on the beach and the waves breaking in I love it on a warm paper but I want the ocean to be white where it should be !
I cant tone the image warmer and print on bright paper ! its way way way to much work to try to then mask out ocean waves breaking on sand it will never look the same
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why not leave the image as it is and extend the canvas area with a cream color and print that on bright white paper? No need for masking.
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not really looking for a solution just thinking it would be cool
and yes it might be tough to do from a tech point ? but look where we are from 30 years ago
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For an image like that white ink wouldn't do what you think.
We are not 30 years away from putting these ideas to test.
They've been done and if there were the demand it could be a possibility to bring it to market. Yet just as some radioactive phosphors were used in test CRT tubes, they are fine in theory, yet problematic to bring to market, if not for safety, environmental issues , yet also ROI for R&D to make it work.
Very cool idea though , maybe a coating company work with the ink makers, who in turn work with a printer maker. It would put a lot of fun back in experimental printing, and differentiate those with the tools to do so. That's why I like ideas such as this, to break out of the norm.
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on brighter paper the image then takes on a dif look since the base is not warm
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136616\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
but if you extended the canvas with a warm tone and printed the whole thing the paper would have a warm base. It would be very easy to do, too.
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not woth it
sorry I wanted to make some people think and just wanted to hear what others though
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If you profile a printer properly, the paper color under the ink is accounted for and isn't really an issue. You're tilting at windmills with a "solution" in search of a problem. With a good printer profiling tool and technique you can print the same image on multiple paper stocks without significant differences from paper to paper.
The suggestion of printing the image on a white paper stock with a slightly warm extended canvas border/frame is an excellent solution to what you're asking for; try it before knocking it.
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Look, seriously, if you want to print on transparencies or socks or doors or linen or cheesecake or aluminum siding or your hamster, white ink is necessary because those items don't naturally come in "white." But if you're feeding paper or indeed almost anything opaque less than 20 mils thick through a photo inkjet printer, chances are excellent that it is already white, and such a white that there's no reason in the world to try and improve on it. And if there's parts of it you don't want to be white -- you print on them so they are some other colour!
White ink isn't needed for fine art printing on paper or canvas.
I'd take a high gloss coating before I took white, any day -- oh, wait, my HP has that.
Now I'll eat my words and say that if I want to print bright white highlights on real hand-made paper, I'm SOL. But -- and read carefully -- that isn't what these printers are for. They're designed to print on white or near-white media. They're subtractive colour mixers. You're looking for a full spectrum printer; that's down the hall.
Don't be complaining because your horse doesn't climb mountains. But neither does a goat carry you and a hundred pounds of gear all day across the pampas. Hammers don't drive screws well, either. Wrenches can open beer bottles but you don't want to drink from them once you've done so. Understanding the intentions and purposes of the equipment is how you learn to master it; not by ragging on what it doesn't do. There's stuff out there that does do what you want; it weighs five tonnes, is bigger than a shed and costs more than a Porsche. Maybe Epson or HP or Canon are planning a white ink. But I really really doubt it will be available anytime soon, for all the reasons explained to you already.
Keep dreaming, please. But realize the practical limitations of what there is, and use those to your advantage. Or, find another route to the solution entirely. There's money to be made, no doubt about it. Find out how!
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Profiling does nothing for white since it does not exist
Actually you are the clueless one. While what you say is true where no ink is being laid down, but it is only true where no ink is being laid down. No ink at all is generally a bad thing, especially if you like keeping any detail in your highlights. By keeping your highlights at 250 or so instead of 255, and printing with Relative Colorimetric rendering intent and black point compensation on, you can print warm toned highlights on cool paper and vice versa. Ever notice people printing sepia tone prints on white paper?
The tools you already have can do the job just fine if you learn to use them effectively.
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I wonder would it have to be pure thick white ? or just whiter or enough to help lighten the part ? I dont know its kind of out past what we have thought of ?
but to say its not needed ? I dont know I think is short sited really we have white in this world !!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136491\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
White and black are really misnomers or metaphors. They are relative terms. Everything is either a color or a shade of gray. A pale shade of grey next to a dark shade of grey can appear white. That same pale shade of grey next to an even paler shade of grey will appear grey and the paler shade of grey will then appear white. I think this is probably why we have 'matte black' ink for matte papers. The whites are not as white as in gloss papers so we have to increase the intensity of the blacks to compensate.
For printing on 'greyish' paper, 'white' ink would appear to me to be useful as long as the 'white' ink is a paler shade of grey than the paper. The Dmax of the print would then be increased.
The questions that arise in my mind are this. Is it easier to produce a white ink than a white paper? Is it possible to produce an ink which is whiter than the whitest paper? Is it possible to produce a white ink which has greater longevity than an equally white paper?
If the answers are in the affirmative, then I think a white ink could offer an improvement over the exisiting system.
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The questions that arise in my mind are this. Is it easier to produce a white ink than a white paper? Is it possible to produce an ink which is whiter than the whitest paper? Is it possible to produce a white ink which has greater longevity than an equally white paper?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=137374\")
The answers are: No ..... No ..... No.....
And the best question would have been: Can a water based inkjet printer lay down a white ink on the whitest paper available and make that spot more white than the unprinted white paper ? And the answer is NO. And have that white ink run with the rest of the inks at the same time ? NO, NO, NO.
Is there a solution, Yes and it has been spelled out many times already.
That it must be frustrating to have such an enlightened idea answered with practical problems and the actual need answered with a simple practical solution must be the key of this continuing thread. In other cases one would be happy with the answer and start printing.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Actually you are the clueless one.
from a guy who does not know me
NICE
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The answers are: No ..... No ..... No.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137406\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well if that's the case, there's not much more to be said, is there?
It would clearly be more expensive to lay an additional ink on the paper. If it's not going to be whiter than the whitest paper, it's difficult to see what purpose could be served. Is it possible that the gamut of the inks could be extended through the availability of a white pigment? I often have trouble with out-of-gamut colors when softproofing images with 'simulate paper white' turned on.
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funny how some people are taking this hehehhehe
I did not ask for a solution yet people want to give one
I did not seek a answer but boy some of you sure have one !
I did not say prove it cant be done but many of you want to show your brain off
I did not say it could be done but again many of you are going to say it cant
the artists types start to think and think and then say yeah I could try this or that with it wow that would be cool
yet the engineer type like to prove or say it cant be done
I do love how threads go in directions they do you learn a lot about people
man this would be a good psychology experiment
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=137417\")
I have worked for artists for more than thirty years and both sides were satisfied 90% of the time when the work was done. In silkscreen and digital printing + access to more printing methods. Found solutions for the weirdest ideas and concepts which didn't always end as printed products either. It happens that what looks like the hard to achieve, ultimate concept in the eye of the artist gets more impact in the end with down to earth solutions. It has to do with the experience of the printer and his knowledge of the media he uses. For the artist that is often unknown territory where he can imagine all things possible that that uninspired down to earth printshop owner never thought off. What I have learned of artists in the past is that they are human beings like we all are. Human beings have expectations that are not always realistic.
This was the most concrete vision you presented in your first message:
>>I have always thought how cool to print on nice warm all natural paper but have the white of the ocean waves or white of the snow etc.. on nice warm paper <<
We thought it would help you to make it possible by telling you how we do that in the best way possible, many artists like that solution but we understand now that you rather keep things in the air and shout that it is so cool up there.
I add a new experience to my list: an artist can become a troll on the web like all human beings can. I have met human beings, artists among them, that were trolls in real life so it isn't a surprise.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Artists and engineers are both creative people; they simply create in different realms. Photographers often must be both, because the purely visual aspects of photography have to be committed to paper or screen through the use of large number of machines and specialized techniques. I might say that the fine art photographer is the bastard child of the artist and engineer, and as such has both the best and worst traits of the two of them. If you ask me how to make highlights brighter, I ask the artist and engineer both in me how to do it. I don't predispose my answer to an impractical suggestion of adding white ink to printers and media that can't make use of it.
If you want some Do It Today solutions to the highlight problem, consider ....
... buy a little tube of titanium white and a 000 camelhair brush and paint the highlights on the prints yourself. It won't be whiter than the paper -- probably -- but it will certainly stand out.
... highlights are only as bright as the illumination provided. Get a few 400 watt solar spectrum metal halide lamps to illuminate your work. With the right photo paper, careful contrast mapping and good mounting techniques you'll have blinding highlights without ruining the rest of the image
... backlighting is also very popular for high contrast images. Translucent white film is available from graphic arts suppliers. You may need to overprint the black to get decent apparent DMAX, but this will certainly provide a pop. Give it a try!
... gloss also enhances the appearance of highlights. Consider using a glossier media than you would otherwise. The increased apparent DMAX over many matte surfaces can also provide a contrast pop.
... digitally alter the image to add a halo or glowing effect to the superhighlight areas. Even a subtle amount of visual blooming can make things seem much brighter.
... display your images on a modern high definition LCD screen. For tear-your-face-off highlights, it's hard to beat a 400cd/m2 backlight.
... fiber-optic lighting has mostly been used to make cheesy elvis posters, but you can also use it for fine arts work. Careful enhancement of specular highlights via fiber-optic inserts could result in amazing results.
That's just five minutes of thought. There's more possibilities, hundreds more.
Here's my point: if you ask the right question -- "how do I get whiter whites" -- you'll get a variety of answers tapping the artists and engineers alike. If you ask the wrong question -- "can white ink make my cheap inkjet printer produce whiter whites" -- the answer will be "no, no, a thousand times no."
What do you want? An argument, or an answer?
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I see Happyfish has edited and changed every single one of his/her posts in this thread which destroys the progression of discussion for future viewers. If only we could take back what we've said in real life...
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I see Happyfish has edited and changed every single one of his/her posts in this thread which destroys the progression of discussion ...
The "discussion" was destroyed when the name calling began... and it was not Chad (Happyfish) that started down THAT infantile road.
Tom
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If you want some Do It Today solutions to the highlight problem, consider ....
... buy a little tube of titanium white and a 000 camelhair brush and paint the highlights on the prints yourself. It won't be whiter than the paper -- probably -- but it will certainly stand out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why should it certainly stand out if it's not whiter than the paper? Do you mean it stands out because it's not as white as the paper? Or do you mean it stands out because of the 3-dimensional texture of the paint?
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Why should it certainly stand out if it's not whiter than the paper? Do you mean it stands out because it's not as white as the paper? Or do you mean it stands out because of the 3-dimensional texture of the paint?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137607\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
To have the ink print down thick enough to actually coat the paper would require a paintbrush type of head or a ribbon type like the Kodak. To use the white in a way that it is screened with the other colors, it has to be somewhat thin for the writing system. Maybe it is possible to have both in the same printer, but it's highly unlikely that the demand would ever reach a level where any printer manufacturer would do so.
As others have suggested in the thread, there are two types of white ink, and two very distinct and separate ways of application of each. Neither correspond to a current methodology. The closest to being used as a supplement is to write pigmented white ink with a fine drop yet large (why not 6-20?) pL which would enhance an image but not coat it. Hence the thin inks would not coat even at a 100% dot, and be weaker in screened areas.
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To have the ink print down thick enough to actually coat the paper would require a paintbrush type of head or a ribbon type like the Kodak. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137618\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not saying you're wrong but this is not my experience with the existing ink colors. Sometimes I have cyan contamination of the yellows from my Epson 7600, resulting in yellows that have a distinct green cast (something to do with oversaturated capping sponges apparently, and probably also due to irregular and infrequent use of the printer).
When this first occurred and no amount of nozzle cleaning seemed to fix the problem, I replaced the yellow cartride which was almost due for replacement anyway, smashed open the old cartridge and lightly painted, with a broad brush, pure yellow ink on a scrap of Premium Lustre paper.
I then created a pure yellow square in Phoshop (255,255,0) and printed it, comparing the results with the painted effect. Eventually the problem cleared up as the contaminated ink got exhausted and I discovered by accident, in the process of experimentation, that ProPhoto RGB could produce a noticeably yellower yellow than Adobe RGB.
But the fact is, whilst it was difficult to paint that yellow ink in a completley even manner, which resulted in the thicker parts appearing a slightly duller yellow causing hints of brush strokes, the general solidity and saturation of the printed yellow was very close indeed to the painted yellow. I didn't have a microscope handy, but there was no hint that the printed yellow square was not a complete cover.
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I had one card in my sleeve for a possible solution: printing pure Optical Brighteners on the paper. With the right light one could achieve a gain there. Not a real solution as the stuff will fade fast, needs short wave light to function, pulls the paper color to the blue-green, and will show a lot of metamerism in changing light conditions.
Ernst Dinkla
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Why should it certainly stand out if it's not whiter than the paper? Do you mean it stands out because it's not as white as the paper? Or do you mean it stands out because of the 3-dimensional texture of the paint?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137607\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ray,
Little raised droplets of glossy paint grab illumination in the room and scatter it as specular highlights. A great effect if you're willing to invest the time in manual application.
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Ray,
Little raised droplets of glossy paint grab illumination in the room and scatter it as specular highlights. A great effect if you're willing to invest the time in manual application.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137664\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just out of curiosity I tried writing with my white oil-based paint marker on a scrap of Epson Enhanced Matte paper. I can hardly see the writing, depending on the angle of the light. When I can see the writing it appears to be because the white paint is not as white as the paper, more like a pale cream.
I get the impression that titanium dioxide would be too abrasive for use in inks for inkjet printers. I would have to agree that it's probably a far better idea to make the paper as white as possible, or white to taste, rather than introduce white ink into the system.