Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: RicAgu on June 24, 2007, 11:06:46 pm
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Well, just to let you know that the AFI seems to be in the hands of some shooters and working. You can see it by the picture attached that Markus Klinko has one and seems to be using it.
Anyone else have one that they may want to talk about.
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In the picture these 2 pictures the camera looks big, almost in the size of the Bronica 6X7. Maybe it is because Markus is not that big of a guy (pun intented)
The finish in the camera looks not like the final treatment. I wonder if it is one early prototype. Thanks for sharing
Eduardo
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I know the camera looks huge it could be the angle and lens. Because Markus is about 6'4" so he is not a small guy.
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That's a killer pout he's got..
Is it Magnum or Blue Steel ?
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That does look like a BFC.
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Judging by the size of his hands in relation to the size of his head it's just a wideangle thing.
The best way to find out is to put the camera in my hands. I promise not to pout too much.
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Judging by the size of his hands in relation to the size of his head it's just a wideangle thing.
The best way to find out is to put the camera in my hands. I promise not to pout too much.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=124757\")
[a href=\"http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/News/events/calumet_event.aspx]AFi in Carl's hands[/url]
Maybe we'll see you next week? I'll bring a P&S so that we can post your pouting pic here on LL
Yair
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Judging by the size of his hands in relation to the size of his head it's just a wideangle thing.
The best way to find out is to put the camera in my hands. I promise not to pout too much.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124757\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think Markus has been a Mamiya RZ/Leaf guy up to now, so size shouldn't be causing the pout. (gas maybe?)
I agree, I wouldn't pout either.
DC
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That's a killer pout he's got..
Is it Magnum or Blue Steel ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124749\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That has to be La Tigre
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Yeah, he is a bit of a cheeseball.
But it is interesting to see that people are shooting with it and it is out and about.
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Yeah, he is a bit of a cheeseball.
But it is interesting to see that people are shooting with it and it is out and about.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It is in fact quite compact and very comfortable to hold and to shoot. I have had it sitting side by side with my Contax 645+P45 and H3D39, Hy6 is the smallest and lightest. Well balanced, very convincing. Image quality made with Sinar e75LV is first class and yes, it is working very well.
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I think Markus has been a Mamiya RZ/Leaf guy up to now, so size shouldn't be causing the pout. (gas maybe?)
I agree, I wouldn't pout either.
DC
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it does not surprise me that he has one to play with...he has been sinar sponsored for a while....i don't think i have seen a sinar ad without his name on it in years.....but he also has a deal with leaf.....i wonder how much was going on behind the scenes, which brand he would be showing....i guess he wasn't going to change his back for sinar!
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this might give a better feeling of the size of the Sinar Hy6
Thierry
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how will the auto focussing be on this camera?? the same slow antique center focussing or will they MF company finally get their s together and come up with a faster and adjustable focussing??
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how will the auto focussing be on this camera?? the same slow antique center focussing or will they MF company finally get their s together and come up with a faster and adjustable focussing??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Single centerpoint or does it have multiple AF Zones? (not expecting Canon or Nikon speed and flexibility here but some more zones than just the center would be a major step forward.)
Thierry, you either have small hands or it is indeed a very compact machine!
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how will the auto focussing be on this camera?? the same slow antique center focussing or will they MF company finally get their s together and come up with a faster and adjustable focussing??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This might give a good reference of the size comparison. Between Hy6-e75LV and Contax 645+P45 and H3D39.
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This might give a good reference of the size comparison. Between Hy6-e75LV and Contax 645+P45 and H3D39.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124809\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Or a more complete size comparison. Combine the compact size and lighter weight and easily accessible switches, the Hy6 is a very nice field camera and a studio camera. AF speed is comparable to H3D39, faster than Contax 645. Both waist level and prism finder is working well.
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Khun K,
I handled an AFi a couple of days here in NYC recently, and was told the 90 degree prism is not quite ready. Please post a picture of it. Any distortion viewing through one?
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You'd Figure the prism would be the easiest things to make happen.
From the looks of the Sinar back it looks like it will be difficult to have a 90 degree prism because of the length.
Will they maye a 45 degree prism?
Was it finally released that the back is rotatable or do you have to remove it and put it back on to switch from horizontal to vertical.
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You'd Figure the prism would be the easiest things to make happen.
From the looks of the Sinar back it looks like it will be difficult to have a 90 degree prism because of the length.
Will they maye a 45 degree prism?
Was it finally released that the back is rotatable or do you have to remove it and put it back on to switch from horizontal to vertical.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124818\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The camera just seems like a non-starter to me for use outside a studio environment until there is a rotatable back so that you can easily switch into vertical mode. I cannot imagine removing the back in anything like a harsh, external environment every time I want to shoot a vertical composition. With an H series body and an L bracket, switching to a vertical composition is quick with no risk of contamination of the sensor with dust, dirt, sand, etc.
Too bad. The Rollei guys are surely capable of developing a very well engineered 645 camera body that could surpass the H series in many ways, with great lenses to boot. It just seems that the marketing people running these companies don't talk with the professional photographers out there to find out what they really want. Maybe I am wrong. Perhaps there is a large market out there of people who want a camera like the Hy6 that uses a 645 sensor with a finder configured for a 6x6 film back and that requires you to remove the back to shoot verticals. We will see.
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The camera just seems like a non-starter to me for use outside a studio environment until there is a rotatable back so that you can easily switch into vertical mode. I cannot imagine removing the back in anything like a harsh, external environment every time I want to shoot a vertical composition. With an H series body and an L bracket, switching to a vertical composition is quick with no risk of contamination of the sensor with dust, dirt, sand, etc.
Too bad. The Rollei guys are surely capable of developing a very well engineered 645 camera body that could surpass the H series in many ways, with great lenses to boot. It just seems that the marketing people running these companies don't talk with the professional photographers out there to find out what they really want. Maybe I am wrong. Perhaps there is a large market out there of people who want a camera like the Hy6 that uses a 645 sensor with a finder configured for a 6x6 film back and that requires you to remove the back to shoot verticals. We will see.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124835\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I take my back of my 503&Flexbody all the time. Not ideal but doable if you work precise. So I think you are exaggerating a bit.
But, I thought I read that Sinar was developing a plate so you can rotate the back without taking it of. Not sure if it will come standard with the body, I believe they weren't either.
I do believe you are right, in the part that it is weird a 6x6 camera is developed for a 645 sensor. I agree, unless it has been the plan to come with a larger sensor all along developing a 645 camera might have made more sense?
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the comparisons are a little unfair....you have to take the 90prism into consideration....but all in all very compact....looks to me like this camera can easily be rotated for a couple of vertical/horizontal shots....should not be worse then the mamiya, hass,...not with the WLF of course, but with the 90 prism it should be doable.....
as far as i know the back has to be taken off to be rotated...definitley a step back from the 6008 where the sinarbacks rotate....unbelievable, but true....don't know what they are thinking...make it a couple of mms larger if you have to.....
anyway....
the AF is always described as a cross...which should mean multiple sensors....
i guess the grip does not come off on this one ( like the 6008)...too many controls on it...but i guess it still clicks in different positions?
can't wait for a hands-on...or at least a hands-on report....
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The camera just seems like a non-starter to me for use outside a studio environment until there is a rotatable back so that you can easily switch into vertical mode. I cannot imagine removing the back in anything like a harsh, external environment every time I want to shoot a vertical composition. With an H series body and an L bracket, switching to a vertical composition is quick with no risk of contamination of the sensor with dust, dirt, sand, etc.
Too bad. The Rollei guys are surely capable of developing a very well engineered 645 camera body that could surpass the H series in many ways, with great lenses to boot. It just seems that the marketing people running these companies don't talk with the professional photographers out there to find out what they really want. Maybe I am wrong. Perhaps there is a large market out there of people who want a camera like the Hy6 that uses a 645 sensor with a finder configured for a 6x6 film back and that requires you to remove the back to shoot verticals. We will see.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124835\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well nothing should stop you from using it with an L-plate or shoot verticals handheld if you so desire. But you also have the option to use the back vertically, with a good, straight, foldable WLF with proper metering.
Plus, this camera was designed to live through more than one generation of sensors/ backs, so the square frame leaves room for further development.
Yair
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Well nothing should stop you from using it with an L-plate or shoot verticals handheld if you so desire. But you also have the option to use the back vertically, with a good, straight, foldable WLF with proper metering.
Plus, this camera was designed to live through more than one generation of sensors/ backs, so the square frame leaves room for further development.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124841\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Come on Yair! Honestly, who wouldn't prefer a rotatable back than what is currently being offered!? We're talking about using this camera as a 645 very soon, not 6x6 in a year or more. If sinarbacks rotate on the 6008 as pss said, why hasn't this capability made it into the Hy6? Someone, please explain it to me. I can see myself getting tired of attaching/re-attaching the back and asking myself "why can't this thing rotate?"
Nik
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I still don't get the grip on the Hy6. I can't even wrap my brain around shooting a vertical with it. Will there be a more traditional grip offered as an add on or is the grip that's on the camera the only option?
As far as ergonomics go, the Contax continues to look like the best of the bunch IMO.
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The camera just seems like a non-starter to me for use outside a studio environment until there is a rotatable back so that you can easily switch into vertical mode.
I think you are making a big deal out of nothing, unless you are spending most of your time in a sand storm. It currently takes me 1 second to rotate the e22 on my 6008AF and the back doesn;t move far from the body. Really a non-issue in most environments.
Besides there is a solution coming. Maybe you missed Thierry's post in which he announced that Sinar will release a rotating adapter?
Maybe I am wrong. Perhaps there is a large market out there of people who want a camera like the Hy6 that uses a 645 sensor with a finder configured for a 6x6 film back and that requires you to remove the back to shoot verticals. We will see.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124835\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not a fan of 6x6 format but I like the camera because you can use a waist level finder in portrait and landscape modes. 645 cameras can't do that. Even without this advantage, I don't want to be rotating the camera. I'd prefer the camera to stay in one orientation so that the controls are always in the same place.
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i guess the grip does not come off on this one ( like the 6008)...too many controls on it...but i guess it still clicks in different positions?
Correct. See the video on Sinar's website.
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I think you are making a big deal out of nothing, unless you are spending most of your time in a sand storm. It currently takes me 1 second to rotate the e22 on my 6008AF and the back doesn;t move far from the body. Really a non-issue in most environments.
Besides there is a solution coming. Maybe you missed Thierry's post in which he announced that Sinar will release a rotating adapter?
I'm not a fan of 6x6 format but I like the camera because you can use a waist level finder in portrait and landscape modes. 645 cameras can't do that. Even without this advantage, I don't want to be rotating the camera. I'd prefer the camera to stay in one orientation so that the controls are always in the same place.
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I shoot in the rain and snow in New England, in the desert Southwest in the US, and off of dusty dirt roads in Tuscany. I would not want to remove the back for even a split second. Perhaps some people will put up with this kludge, perhaps some people want a 6x6 finder to go with a 645 sensor MFDB, perhaps some people will buy in anticipation of a 6x6 sensor, perhaps some people will buy in anticipation of a rotating adapter. For $35K, I sincerely doubt that there will be many. As I said, too bad, because Rollei's technology and lenses and analogue sensibilities in camera design could have produced a GREAT 645 camera to serve as a platform for Leaf and Sinar backs. I really do hope that it does not become the quirky/niche sort of camera that the Sinar M is, but the marketing track record over the years of the companies behind it do not give me a lot of confidence.
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I almost work exclusively outside and I'm forever taking the back of my Rollei 6008 and moving it to portrait/landscape. Nothing untoward has happened yet - a sensor is very easy to clean by the way. I've done it in rain, ice and snow and in three weeks time will be doing in Las Vegas and Death Valley. Lots of back removal there too!
Sure, a non-removable rotating back will be fine, but in the meantime I'll get on with what makes me a living with something that is actually in front of me. When it comes out I'll buy it and that will be that. Life goes on...
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I still don't get the grip on the Hy6. I can't even wrap my brain around shooting a vertical with it. Will there be a more traditional grip offered as an add on or is the grip that's on the camera the only option?
As far as ergonomics go, the Contax continues to look like the best of the bunch IMO.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
if you ever used a 6008 you will know how absolutely great the grip actually is....
the only way to shoot vertical would be with a 90 prism....not with the WLF:) that is just crazy...with the 90 prism it should be fine.....but either way...you can rotate the back anyway....
it is just plain idiotic to release the only new 6x6 camera (with film pretty much dead) and make it's ONE and OBVIOUS advantage over everything else...the rotating back...not really rotating, but a re-attach....i really hope they will figure this out....
but i would still much rather have that option then to be forever stuck shooting verticals with a camera that is made for horizontals (as all 645s are).....
it is amazing that the RZ is the only camera supporting pretty much any back, rotates any back, has WLF, prism finders (all larger and brighter then anything else),1/400sync, T/S lenses,..... all at a much lower price.....wait a minute....a truly open system!
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Having a remove a back to switch from landscape to portrait would be an absolute show stopper for me as a landscape shooter. I often shoot in 40 degrees icy slopes with gloves and the very idea of having to take the risk to drop 25.000 US$ worth of silicon is unbearable.
On the other hand, it seems to me that all the other 645 camera also have non rotating backs and that landscape shooters address this shortcoming with L brackets. Poor ergonomics of the grip is non relevant in these situations since release cables are always used.
Is there any reason why a L bracket could not be used on the Hy6?
Regards,
Bernard
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Having a remove a back to switch from landscape to portrait would be an absolute show stopper for me as a landscape shooter. I often shoot in 40 degrees icy slopes with gloves and the very idea of having to take the risk to drop 25.000 US$ worth of silicon is unbearable.
On the other hand, it seems to me that all the other 645 camera also have non rotating backs and that landscape shooters address this shortcoming with L brackets. Poor ergonomics of the grip is non relevant in these situations since release cables are always used.
Is there any reason why a L bracket could not be used on the Hy6?
Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124868\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I thought about that, Bernard. The controls on the side of the camera may prevent the use of an L bracket. The other issue is that the RRS and Kirk won't make brackets without significant demand. The one that should already have made it is....Sinar! Have they not thought of that, or is it physically not feasible? Or, is that another accessory to come?
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I still don't get the grip on the Hy6. I can't even wrap my brain around shooting a vertical with it.
The beauty is that you never need to rotate the camera. Just rotate the back. That's a big advantage of the 6x6 system (imo).
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none of the 2 photographers are me!:
One Chinese and one South African, FYI.
Thierry
Thierry, you either have small hands or it is indeed a very compact machine!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124808\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear hcubell,
as said and posted here a few days ago, Sinar will produce "rotatable" adapters for this camera: it has nothing to do with marketing, but with feasibility. Feasibility checks have been done and it is feasible, and Sinar will do it.
As said also: no precise time-table for the release of thse rotatable adapters yet, but it should not take that long either.
Best regards,
Thierry
The camera just seems like a non-starter to me for use outside a studio environment until there is a rotatable back so that you can easily switch into vertical mode. I cannot imagine removing the back in anything like a harsh, external environment every time I want to shoot a vertical composition. With an H series body and an L bracket, switching to a vertical composition is quick with no risk of contamination of the sensor with dust, dirt, sand, etc.
Too bad. The Rollei guys are surely capable of developing a very well engineered 645 camera body that could surpass the H series in many ways, with great lenses to boot. It just seems that the marketing people running these companies don't talk with the professional photographers out there to find out what they really want. Maybe I am wrong. Perhaps there is a large market out there of people who want a camera like the Hy6 that uses a 645 sensor with a finder configured for a 6x6 film back and that requires you to remove the back to shoot verticals. We will see.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124835\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Paul,
- the Sinarbacks do not rotate on the 6008: one has to take them away
- rotatable adapters for Sinarbacks on the Sinar Hy6 are in preparation/production
- the grip does not come off on the Sinar Hy6
- the hand-grip can be moved into 4 different positions
Best regards,
Thierry
as far as i know the back has to be taken off to be rotated...definitley a step back from the 6008 where the sinarbacks rotate....unbelievable, but true....don't know what they are thinking...make it a couple of mms larger if you have to.....
i guess the grip does not come off on this one ( like the 6008)...too many controls on it...but i guess it still clicks in different positions?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124839\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Nik,
Nothing more to be worried about: see my previous posts: the Sinarbacks shall be available with a rotating adapter plate for the Sinar Hy6.
Best regards,
Thierry
Someone, please explain it to me. I can see myself getting tired of attaching/re-attaching the back and asking myself "why can't this thing rotate?"
Nik
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124847\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Bob,
the hand-grip is not removable.
I suggest you hold this camera in your hands to get a good idea about its ergonomics (and weight).
Thierry
I still don't get the grip on the Hy6. I can't even wrap my brain around shooting a vertical with it. Will there be a more traditional grip offered as an add on or is the grip that's on the camera the only option?
As far as ergonomics go, the Contax continues to look like the best of the bunch IMO.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124854\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Here 2 more snapshots of the Hy6, this time with the 90° prism.
Thierry
You'd Figure the prism would be the easiest things to make happen.
From the looks of the Sinar back it looks like it will be difficult to have a 90 degree prism because of the length.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124818\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
is this a real prism or something like the Fuji GX680 mirror-box 90% viewfinder?
And is it rotatable like the Rollei 45% prism that was available for the 6000 series?
Regards,
Willem.
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the hand-grip is not removable.
So the grip adjusts? Ahhhhhh....I get it.
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YES, Bob! 4 different positions.
Thierry
So the grip adjusts? Ahhhhhh....I get it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I droppped 2 Hasselblad backs in a period of 18 years. I've never dropped a camera or a lens.
I would take a 6008 with a revolving back (proper name) any day over a Hy6 with re-attach!
I know, Thierry already said an adapter is coming. I figured it out, since Mamiya did it right 30 years ago.
A 6X6 camera with a 645 back needs a revolving adapter as an 18-wheeler needs to bend.
A 7X7 camera with a 6X7 back needs....................... (RB-RZ)
Regards
Eduardo
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The Bronica 6X7 never took off. It was lighter than the Mamiya but lacked the revolving back.
Let's hope the people at Sinar did their homework.
Regards
Eduardo
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YES, Bob! 4 different positions.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124894\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Look thru the viewfinder the prism is coinsidered quite bright to me and did not add much weight to the camera so the entire package is still a very portable unit to use in the field. It is to be noted even it is not considered a final release, the prism fitted to the camera quite stable, you will feel it is a stronger prism than that on the H3D.
The grip is rotatable, 4 positions, and lock into each of the 4 positions very positively. The grip mechanism is permanently attached to the body and cannot be removed so it is physically very secured. And the grip also house the battery. This is different than the H3D that the batery itself is a part of the grip that although I have no experience of battery coming out in active use, the H3D grip design does not give you the same security.
The rotatable back adapter is more or less a question of when the final test to be done and released to market rather than a yes or no. Being the only AF 6X6 digital platform in the market today, at least it is fair to say the design of the body has such a coming feature that none of the existing medium format platform can offer at such a small package and weight. And may be for the first time I will not find good use of the L plate I put on both Contax and H3D39.
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Removing a back not only outside but also in the heats and stresses of big shoot is a big hazard to me. It is actually very easy to scrach the sensor and I for one did it in the past. I will not even attempt it anymore without comfortable sitting down and taking my time. For now my back sits and rotates on Rz and untill there will be a rotating adapter I will not even consider new system.
Hy6 grip is comfortable only until you put 180mm/2.8 on it. Trust me on this I tried. It feels like you just caught a big fish and it is pulling you forward.
Question : what is the plan for users with backs for other systems? will there be adapters for existing backs lets say for the H1 mount to Hy6 mount. I can not see people selling their new top of the line backs to go to the new mount.
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Dear Andre
Did you try the Hy6 with a 180mm? If yes, I doubt you have found the H series (or others) to be any lighter or less "pulling you forward", in the contrary.
As for users with other backs: it has always been the back manufacturer which has been responsible to provide adapters for a given camera platform, not the other way round, thus the question should be answered by those back nanufacturers, not by Sinar (as said in earlier treads already).
Best regards,
Thierry
Hy6 grip is comfortable only until you put 180mm/2.8 on it. Trust me on this I tried. It feels like you just caught a big fish and it is pulling you forward.
Question : what is the plan for users with backs for other systems? will there be adapters for existing backs lets say for the H1 mount to Hy6 mount. I can not see people selling their new top of the line backs to go to the new mount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The rotatable back adapter is more or less a question of when the final test to be done and released to market rather than a yes or no. Being the only AF 6X6 digital platform in the market today, at least it is fair to say the design of the body has such a coming feature that none of the existing medium format platform can offer at such a small package and weight. And may be for the first time I will not find good use of the L plate I put on both Contax and H3D39.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Possibly dumb question: after you rotate the back on the Hy6, what do you see in the viewfinder? Is the 645 cropped viewfinder image still in horizontal mode?
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Removing a back not only outside but also in the heats and stresses of big shoot is a big hazard to me. It is actually very easy to scrach the sensor and I for one did it in the past. I will not even attempt it anymore without comfortable sitting down and taking my time. For now my back sits and rotates on Rz and untill there will be a rotating adapter I will not even consider new system.
Hy6 grip is comfortable only until you put 180mm/2.8 on it. Trust me on this I tried. It feels like you just caught a big fish and it is pulling you forward.
Question : what is the plan for users with backs for other systems? will there be adapters for existing backs lets say for the H1 mount to Hy6 mount. I can not see people selling their new top of the line backs to go to the new mount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well I found the Hy6-e75 with 80mm lens felt quite balanced. I have the 180mm (physically big but not heavy) and 90mm makro and I think they also balance with the Hy6 well. I do not have the 60-140mm and may be this lens will be a bit too heavy, but this is also the fact with 50-110 on H3D. Contax 645 on the other hand, have overall smaller size of lenses (except 350/4 Apo-Tessar which has its own tripod collar) and balance well with the body and digital back. Since Hy6 lenses are closer to the size of Contax lenses, although haven't tried all the lenses, I think it is safe to assume the handling of Hy6 with most of its lenses will be quite good.
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I'm still trying to decide which MF system to bankrupt myself with but having handheld the H3D with 50-110 zoom for over two hours I was surprised that it felt, if anything, more comfortable/less painful then my 1Ds2 with 70-200 zoom. (I'm only average build - about 5' 10 at the start of the day down to 5' 9 by the end!) The balance felt better on the H3D - maybe the grip helped. The Canon/70-200 definitely feels like it is pulling forward. The Canon clearly has the edge for "pointability" though, as you'd expect.
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I'm still trying to decide which MF system to bankrupt myself with but having handheld the H3D with 50-110 zoom for over two hours I was surprised that it felt, if anything, more comfortable/less painful then my 1Ds2 with 70-200 zoom. (I'm only average build - about 5' 10 at the start of the day down to 5' 9 by the end!) The balance felt better on the H3D - maybe the grip helped. The Canon/70-200 definitely feels like it is pulling forward. The Canon clearly has the edge for "pointability" though, as you'd expect.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124928\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just came back from a 2 weeks vocation in Tibet not long ago, with Leica M8 and H3D39 with some lenses, include HC 50-110 and HC 300/4.5, I can tell you H3D39 with 50-110 attached to carry for 2 hours will be very tough for me. Apart from the ergonomic issue, the Lowepro AW back pack I have can put a Conax 645 body+P45, 4 extra P45 battery, 35mm, 55mm, 45-90mm, 120 makro, 210mm and 350/4 but can only out a H3D39, 28mm, 35mm, 50-110mm, 120mm and 80mm and 2 spare batteries. The system accessory is also an issue. With H3D system, you will end up needing 67mm, 77mm, 95mm filters and with Contax it is only 72mm and 95mm. My finding on H3D is that the grip feels good when you are shooting, but you need to try when you are not shooting and carry the camera around just holding the grip.
I shoot a lot of fashion in location, many times need to use a bron-color ring flash attached to the camera, with the ring flash and powerpack considered, and the camera and lenses, I must say Hy6 is extremely tempting for its size and weight and the possibility of custom of holding the camera in one orientation and just rotate the back.
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The Hy6 has a square viewfinder with indicators for horizontal and vertical 6x4.5 crops.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124914\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So, all you have are frame lines. The area of the finder that is outside the frame of the sensor is not blacked out. This seems similar to the viewing experience with a rangefinder with frame lines. I personally do not care for this as a viewfinder experience. I much prefer the experience of looking through a full frame viewfinder that shows me exactly what the the image will look like. I just find it more effective for composing an image. If I were shooting portraits, I could definitely see making the compromise in the viewing experience so that I could work with the camera in vertical mode without flipping the camera over. For landscape work where I am always shooting off a tripod, I would strongly prefer to work with a full frame viewfinder like the H3D and an L bracket. Different tools for different needs.
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I just came back from a 2 weeks vocation in Tibet not long ago, with Leica M8 and H3D39 with some lenses, include HC 50-110 and HC 300/4.5, I can tell you H3D39 with 50-110 attached to carry for 2 hours will be very tough for me. Apart from the ergonomic issue, the Lowepro AW back pack I have can put a Conax 645 body+P45, 4 extra P45 battery, 35mm, 55mm, 45-90mm, 120 makro, 210mm and 350/4 but can only out a H3D39, 28mm, 35mm, 50-110mm, 120mm and 80mm and 2 spare batteries. The system accessory is also an issue. With H3D system, you will end up needing 67mm, 77mm, 95mm filters and with Contax it is only 72mm and 95mm. My finding on H3D is that the grip feels good when you are shooting, but you need to try when you are not shooting and carry the camera around just holding the grip.
I shoot a lot of fashion in location, many times need to use a bron-color ring flash attached to the camera, with the ring flash and powerpack considered, and the camera and lenses, I must say Hy6 is extremely tempting for its size and weight and the possibility of custom of holding the camera in one orientation and just rotate the back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe I should have emphasised that the Ids2 with 70-200/24-70 feels really heavy for me after a couple of hours - aching wrists, etc, but the H3D/50-110 wasn't quite so heavy. Still not easy, but not as bad as I had expected after reading some of the posts in LL. I took less shots with the H3D than I would normally do with the Canon, and so was not in such a strained position for so long and maybe that was a factor.
I have still to really try the Mamiya and Contax, although I think the Contax is out for me - sadly as I love the brand - because of the UK servicing situation and the lack of a 28mm lens. So I, like many others, am looking forward to giving the Hy6 a workout. (Is there a 28mm lens in the pipeline?) From your posts, you seem to rate it from all aspects.
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So, all you have are frame lines.
No, there are no frame lines. It is a semi-opaque mask.
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i have to agree with the last post....i am not sure why people are concerned about having OPTIONS? if you don't want to take the back off because you are in a sandstorm...just do what you would have to do with any 645....rotate the camera...not sure where the problem is....does anyone really think that a rotating back keeps the elements out? i would never rotate the back on my RZ on the beach..exposed to salt and sand....i can just hear the sound!
of course the finder has masks....and i am pretty sure it is very much like the one i look through every day in the RZ...looks like a very fat cross....very clean, no problmes at all...if you don't like it...get 2 mask and change them...or just put one in and rotate the camera....which is what you are doing now.....
i have owned the 6008 with the 180....i have shot the H2 with the zoom.....there is no comparison....not sure if the zoom is actually that much heavier...but the way you can hold the 180 with a WLF infront of your body distributes teh weight s much better....i was not able to hold the H with the zoom vertical infront of my face for more then 2-3 minutes at a time....had to put it down in between....i won't even go into detail what that did to my manual focus %.....
of course this is considering my work which is taking 100s of shots, constantly focussing and moving....
there is no question, everybody shoots different, but either way, i don't see how the Hy6 would not be able to satisfy any needs....how a 645 could do something the hy6 could not....
as much as i love the RZ with all its simple function and versatility...the Hy6 can do everything and it does a few things better and is just as versatile...while being a lot smaller and handier....
i think anyone who hasn't worked with a 6000 series camera should just go and check the Hy6 out before asking about the grip or rotation or screen....because once you hold it and see it, it all becomes much clearer, some things cannot be explained...they have to be experienced......for better or for worse......maybe then decide it isn't for you at all.....
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Looks a nice set up to me, I like the future square idea.
The 90 degree and the handgrip look ideal for what I do, add a revolving back and I'm sorted. Not that I'm going to be one of first to buy and find out what it doesn't do that you thought it would.
Kevin.
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hcubell, nobody says you couldn't drop a black mask into the viewfinder or replace the ground glass with its indicators, just as you could always do with the 6008 and the 645 back. And nobody says you couldn't use your beloved L-bracket. There are just several ways to go with this camera. Maybe that's what confuses you, options to choose how to use your camera? Fewer tools for different needs.
The answer to all this whining over rotatable backs and framing would be in using a full frame square CCD which would allow for in-back cropping, thus making possible all orientation wanted. You could do vertical, horizontal, shift left, shift right, shift up and shift down. And square of course. Unfortunately the toy shop doesn't have these backs in stock yet, but at least you know that the camera capable of supporting it is coming soon. I know, it always seems such a long time before Santa comes when it's still summer and you are hanging out with your friends in the pool, drewling over the new water gun you want.
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Are you suggesting that whenever you think you MAY want to shoot a vertical and you have a black mask in the finder, you first rotate the back, then you remove the prism, reorient the black mask, and replace the prism? Don't like the composition? OK, start over! Wow. Photography as self-flaggelation.
The only thing more bizarre to me is extolling the Hy6's ability to accomadate a 48x48mm sensor, something that does not exist today, may never exist, and if it does exist, at who knows what price. In that regard, your reference to Santa in describing the wait for the arrival of a MFDB with such a sensor seems, unintentionally, quite apt.
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Are you suggesting that whenever you think you MAY want to shoot a vertical and you have a black mask in the finder, you first rotate the back, then you remove the prism, reorient the black mask, and replace the prism? Don't like the composition? OK, start over! Wow. Photography as self-flaggelation.
The only thing more bizarre to me is extolling the Hy6's ability to accomadate a 48x48mm sensor, something that does not exist today, may never exist, and if it does exist, at who knows what price. In that regard, your reference to Santa in describing the wait for the arrival of a MFDB with such a sensor seems, unintentionally, quite apt.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125007\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Imagine seeing this through the finder:
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/9783348X36_mask.jpg)
...which is what 1000s of photographers have been seeing on RZs, RBs, 680s, all V-series and all LF cameras for the last 9 years or so (when the first rectangle 6MP Philips chip came out.
Is that clear enough now? Still bizarre?
Yair
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As for the 48mm x 48mm CCD: it's in the works but will not likely hit the market before halfway next year. It remains to be seen if it will be embraced by the back makers, but SinarBron is already anticipating 56mm x 56mm sensors here: http://www.sinarbron.com/Press_Release/Sinar_Hy6_Release.pdf (http://www.sinarbron.com/Press_Release/Sinar_Hy6_Release.pdf)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125025\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Seems to me foolish not to think ALL MFDB mfrs. are working on this. It's do or die world out there. One mfr ups the ante by releasing (or just announcing) a back with increased features and quality, the others follow suit as quickly as they can, some go one step further by announcing what they "thinking about" for the future.... don't want to be perceived as falling behind!
Until you can put it in your hands AND it works as promised it's all PR hype and a setup for frustration and disappointment, as announced release dates continually get pushed, which are then followed by promises of firmware updates to address flaws in prematurely released product by HQ.
But it's fun to fantasize and think it's right around the corner, will work perfectly, and the price will HAVE to be $10k because of the ZD, right?
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I am suggesting the following:
1. Use a black mask with a rectangle cutout in your favored position and turn the camera using your L-bracket or by handholding it.
2. Use a black mask with a cross cutout, so that you can revolve the back and get a good indication of what you are going to see. This involves being able to see how a vertical shot would look while you are busy composing horizontally. Probably too distracting for you.
3. Use no mask at all and simply follow the hairline indications to see what a vertical or horizontal composition will look like. Like in cinema cameras this can be very handy to keep unwanted objects out of your frame because you can see them nearing. Probably also too distracting for you.
4. Shoot square. Probably too... square for you.
If any of the above is not to your liking, don't use this camera and find one that dynamically changes its viewfinder with black borders, in accordance with your back's position.
As for the 48mm x 48mm CCD: it's in the works but will not likely hit the market before halfway next year. It remains to be seen if it will be embraced by the back makers, but SinarBron is already anticipating 56mm x 56mm sensors here: http://www.sinarbron.com/Press_Release/Sinar_Hy6_Release.pdf (http://www.sinarbron.com/Press_Release/Sinar_Hy6_Release.pdf)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125025\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
1. "My" L bracket? I have two, one for a Pentax 67II and one for an H series Hasselblad. Which of the two would YOU use on a Hy6?
2.You are right. I dislike distractions, inefficient use of finder real estate, kludges, etc. I like WYSIWYG.
3. Same as above. Plus, as a landscape photographer, the only objects approaching from outside the frame that I need to concern myself with are people walking into my field of view. That does not strike me as a reason to make such inefficient use of the finder real estate.
4. Square is sometimes good, but the sensor is NOT square. The sensor that the camera is being sold with is 645. The Hy6 just seems to be a round hole trying to meet a square peg. A 6x6 camera masquerading as a 645. The camera should have been built from the ground up to make the most effective use of the sensors that exist today in commercial quantities at price points that work in the marketplace. My sense is that people buy based upon what works today and don't fork over $35K for features on the come.
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Imagine seeing this through the finder:
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/9783348X36_mask.jpg)
...which is what 1000s of photographers have been seeing on RZs, RBs, 680s, all V-series and all LF cameras for the last 9 years or so (when the first rectangle 6MP Philips chip came out.
Is that clear enough now? Still bizarre?
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125023\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, I can imagine it. But looking at your diagram, this would not be my preferred way of looking through a viewfinder. It's a kludge that I would not choose, just like watching a 16:9 aspect ratio DVD on a 4:3 TV in letterboxed format. What I would prefer is to use a finder configured for the aspect ratio of the sensor, with a "full" view out to the edges of what will be captured.
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1. "My" L bracket? I have two, one for a Pentax 67II and one for an H series Hasselblad. Which of the two would YOU use on a Hy6?
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What's surprising about having to buy a new L bracket for a new camera?
4. Square is sometimes good, but the sensor is NOT square. The sensor that the camera is being sold with is 645. The Hy6 just seems to be a round hole trying to meet a square peg. A 6x6 camera masquerading as a 645. The camera should have been built from the ground up to make the most effective use of the sensors that exist today in commercial quantities at price points that work in the marketplace. My sense is that people buy based upon what works today and don't fork over $35K for features on the come.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125041\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am not that sure. Many shooters liked the square format and investing into a system that will give them the opportunity to use square sensors in one year from now does appear to make sense to me.
Overall I personnally feel that the Hy6 is a good solution with more options and flexibility that competing platforms. More options means that a selection is required from the user, but seasoned pros should have no problem dealing with this kind of power.
The killing part for me is the lack of interoperability with Phaseone backs. Today this leaves Mamiya as the only credible platform I could consider investing in.
Regards,
Bernard
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As far as ergonomics go, the Contax continues to look like the best of the bunch IMO.
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Indeed.
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1. "My" L bracket? I have two, one for a Pentax 67II and one for an H series Hasselblad. Which of the two would YOU use on a Hy6?
2.You are right. I dislike distractions, inefficient use of finder real estate, kludges, etc. I like WYSIWYG.
3. Same as above. Plus, as a landscape photographer, the only objects approaching from outside the frame that I need to concern myself with are people walking into my field of view. That does not strike me as a reason to make such inefficient use of the finder real estate.
4. Square is sometimes good, but the sensor is NOT square. The sensor that the camera is being sold with is 645. The Hy6 just seems to be a round hole trying to meet a square peg. A 6x6 camera masquerading as a 645. The camera should have been built from the ground up to make the most effective use of the sensors that exist today in commercial quantities at price points that work in the marketplace. My sense is that people buy based upon what works today and don't fork over $35K for features on the come.
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you don't need a bracket...not sure why that won't get into your head....by the time the camera actually ships, there will be a adapter that makes rotation possible...
put a loupe on your finder and you will only see the center, whatever you are shooting with now, this will be a lot brighter and bigger.....
not getting your points about the round hole/square peg...i think everything has been explained over and over here (and in other threads before...).....i understand that there is something you don't get about the 6x6 and a 645 sensor....but if you don't get it yet, the only way is to see for yourself....IF you even want to give this camera a chance.....from the way you are talking you just won't give it a chance....
especially for shooting landscape the schneider lenses are so absolutely amazing with their detail and contrast...
none of us know how the camera will ACTUALLY work in every day handling...we are all talking about pics, experiences with similar cameras,....in a few months we will know more....i will definitely try and get a demo with one....
if you just don't get the idea behind it and won't give it a chance.....the camera isn't for you....and anyway...why bother writing about it?
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BTW, if you fork over $35K today you will have a system that works today and is as easy to handle as any MF camera of the competition.
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How can you say this ? Have you used it extensively for photographic tests ? Have you tested the AF in real life ? Have you used the prism finder ? Does everybody share your tastes for the strange hand position caused by the grip of th Hy6 ????????????
This hype is getting out of hand. There is no reason to say bad things about the Hy6 as no one here has been to perform real-world functional tests.
And there are no reaons to think it will solve everyone's problems, because let's face it - the Rollei had an adoption problem too, most considered the Hassy, the Contax and Mamiya superior designs *for their tastes and purposes*. And now there are two more competitors, the new Hassy, and the ZD which is basically an oversized SLR.
Last not least, there is this strange word "today". When a magazine wants pictures "today" it means TODAY. When Sinar/Leaf/Rollei promise you a working Hy6 system they say "not before 4 months, we hope". They are being honest here, you are damaging them by hyping a roduct saying you "get it today if you fork over the money". Really ? Then go ahead, fork over the loney and see whether you can take images with what you get, for the next 4 or six months.
Edmund
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What's surprising about having to buy a new L bracket for a new camera?
I am not that sure. Many shooters liked the square format and investing into a system that will give them the opportunity to use square sensors in one year from now does appear to make sense to me.
Overall I personnally feel that the Hy6 is a good solution with more options and flexibility that competing platforms. More options means that a selection is required from the user, but seasoned pros should have no problem dealing with this kind of power.
The killing part for me is the lack of interoperability with Phaseone backs. Today this leaves Mamiya as the only credible platform I could consider investing in.
Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125050\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was kidding about the L bracket. EPd has apparently never seen one as he seems to think you just take any old L bracket and stick it on a Hy6. Not so. These brackets are custom configured for each specific camera and would not fit on another camera.
Everyone has different needs and prioritizes them differently. I don't move around taking thousands of photos of scantily clad women in 30 minutes(much as I might like to).
My least significant need is to be ready for the possibility of a bigger sensor in the future. We will see how the Hy6 shakes out in the rough and tumble marketplace of MFDB wars and whether others agree with me that it represents a flawed set of design choices. The verdict will be written by photographers voting with their wallets, not by forum debates.
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I second the comment except I am quite certain I did not use the camera long enough. But, having been in photography for over 20 years and handled so many cameras, and as being an industrial designer as well, I do able to tell what is a superior design than another. The Hy6 is both simple and sophisticate and very comfortable to operate. Of course, each one has to adapt himself to each photography tool to make the most out of it. The Hy6 can be quiute natural to get to use instantly.
I, for one, started to use P25 on Contax 645 since its introduction and also invested a H3D system, all along I was asking my dealer to find a solution to put the back on a modern system to make use of the Rollei lenses. We must say the Hy6 offer a wonderful solution to those who needed. Here in the world we have a wonderful Contax 645 system that no longer in production. We do need a strong alternative to the H3D and I think Hy6 offer a strong alternative to people in adverting and fine art works, and perhaps also for fashion works. The endeavor to bring Hy6 to the market needed support from us, the users, and every camera needs little time to evolve, and we shall judge it by using it, not guessing it.
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Edmund, to each his own of course.
If you don't think you'll like it, fine. But give it a chance, at least for others who are not as negatively prejudiced, to see for themselves. I am just trying to point at things/features that most probably aren't yet familiar with, so they can decide if they want to look into it in the first place.
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Why should I be negatively prejudiced ? It's a nice followup design to the Rollei 600x; F&H have basically met their production timetable. The camera will probably make some users very happy once the initial shakedown is done. What I really hold against this thing is that it feels like a Rollei. Hidden features don't determine love at first sight
Edmund