Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => Luminous Landscape Video => Topic started by: Bob Nicholson on June 20, 2007, 03:15:48 am
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From the Store:-
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LLVJ 16 - DVD Download (4.1 GB) -TEST PRODUCT ONLY!- $114.95
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Is this price correct?
Bob
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www.m-w.com look up 'test'.
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"Test product"
It isn't out of test.
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www.m-w.com look up 'test'.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123930\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
and................
I was asking about the price, not about it being a "test" product.
Bob
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"Test product"
It isn't out of test.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123932\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I saw that it was a test product, I was querying the price.
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Heeeeeres yur sign!
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I think the price is set really high to keep people from purchasing a test product.
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I think the price is set really high to keep people from purchasing a test product.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124118\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is correct - I will replace the test product (which has been successfully used by a small number of users) with its correct price - $14.95 - within a couple of days
CS
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High-Five!!
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That is correct - I will replace the test product (which has been successfully used by a small number of users) with its correct price - $14.95 - within a couple of days
CS
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124968\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sounds good!
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The DVD-Video file product is now up and can be found at this link (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20&products_id=147) in the store.
Please be aware that this is a nine file download with a total size of 4.1 GB. For fast unrestricted ISP accounts only!! Enjoy
Chris S
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The DVD-Video file product is now up and can be found at this link (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20&products_id=147) in the store.
Please be aware that this is a nine file download with a total size of 4.1 GB. For fast unrestricted ISP accounts only!! Enjoy
A couple of questions. I have a subscription to regular DVD version of LL Video Journal. Like to watch on TV, so want highest quality possible. Is there a way I can convert my regular subscription to a subscription to the high quality download? Will a DVD-R that I burn play fine on a regular DVD player attached to a TV? Also, it may be that vol. 16 was mailed to me already--not sure where this stands.
Thanks.
--John
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Is there a way I can convert my regular subscription to a subscription to the high quality download? Will a DVD-R that I burn play fine on a regular DVD player attached to a TV? Also, it may be that vol. 16 was mailed to me already--not sure where this stands.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125049\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, you may convert on a 1 for 1 basis.
The DVD-Video you will be able to burn to DVD-R will play on most DVD players (older ones may not support DVD-R playback - check your manual)
It is _exactly_ the same files/content/quality as the physically shipped DVD-Video.
Please email () to check on the status of your subscription or to ask for a conversion to Download
Chris S
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Awesome quality, thank you! I just finished it (again) while doing some framing work. I love being able to watch these on the big screen.
For those of you wondering - spend the extra $5, forget about the low quality youtube version - it's ONLY good for viewing in a small quicktime window on your computer.
The DVD download is perfect and a GREAT price!
BTW nice DL speed, I got over 1.2M/sec!
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For those of you wondering - spend the extra $5, forget about the low quality youtube version - it's ONLY good for viewing in a small quicktime window on your computer.
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I totally second your comment! Download went smoothly and quality is really a big step up from the "normal" download.
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I would love to but according to customer service I'm stuck with the download files till issue 21
I have asked to change the subscribtion back to the DVD but it is final according to customer service
So take good care when you change your subscription.
I will dump the coupons and pay for the download DVDs because on my screen the judder from the downloads is KILLING me it's terrible.
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The DVD-Video files product has been available for a five days - traditionallly the strongest period for sales. The product has reached an astounding 8 (EIGHT) sales... I think it highly unlikely that I will repeat this exercise for LLVJ-17. The demand is not sufficient to justify the time that I spent on it
Chris S
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As I posted in the other thread, I'm very disappointed with this decision. If that is final, then I will be demanding that the 6 download coupons I have, after foolishly converting my DVD subscription to downloadable video, be changed back to DVD by mail, or my money be refunded.
The quality of the video downloads is completely unacceptable, and after watching the downloadable version of LLVJ16 in a little window on my computer screen, I do not want to do that again. It was a thoroughly dissatisfying experience that I will not repeat.
The LLVJ DVD is a great product, but if downloadable video is the future, then I will be voting with my wallet, and my vote is no thanks.
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The DVD-Video files product has been available for a five days - traditionallly the strongest period for sales. The product has reached an astounding 8 (EIGHT) sales... I think it highly unlikely that I will repeat this exercise for LLVJ-17. The demand is not sufficient to justify the time that I spent on it
Chris S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125741\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Chris,
I have opinned on this in a different post but please keep one thing in mind, and I think most will agree with me, we consider the LLVJ a high quality product to be enjoyed in comfort on the big screen. We have no problem viewing the hi-res tutorials(the LR and the upcoming printing endevor) on the computer screen, as that's what we're accustomed to as a teaching tool. But the LLVJ is a different animal. The fact that you spent the time to complete the newest version was a learning procces. If you only make this higher quality available, you'll only be doing once, not twice. Please reconsider your decission.
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Wait a minute - are you saying that you will not be offering any DVD quality product whatsoever?? Are you saying that all your sales except 8 have been the poor quality small computer window only version? If so I'd say your metrics are way off or you simply didn't give it enough time.
No way will I buy that low quality download again. I bought all the DVDs since I found out about them, I bought the DVD download of 16 and would buy every one that comes out in the future.
So if you are ONLY going to be putting out the crappy version, why is it you are shooting with an HD video camera? Whip out your cell phone, because that's exactly the video quality the small download has. Don't waste your time in capture and production of the DVD version anymore - right??
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I also think the download will go up if customer support is better (sorry).
I have coupons for the downloads and mailed several times if I can PLEASE set them over to DVD downloads, and the answer is no....
To be honest that will put me of into downloading 16 because I already saw it and am not willing to fork out 14,95 for something I have seen.
17 will be a download for me, even if it means I have to pay it myself without coupons, I will if possible NEVER watch the small files again.
I also think the workprocess you mention is way overrated.
You have to do the authering for DVD because there are people that still want the DVD, so just upload the image.
The smaller videos are MUCH more work because you have to transcode them.
Just drop the small videos and host the large image and I think EVERYONE will switch to DVD download.
Even if you make the transistion from 3 to 4 downloads, for my part you can even translate the subscription to 1:1.
Now I have changed my subscription to downloads on a 2:1 basis and I will 100% sure drop the coupons and just fork out the 14.95 downloads, it's a shame and loss of money but I want the best quality.
Greetings,
Frank
ps.
I still think is weird I get the response from customer support the change is definite and nothing can be done....
I really love what you guys are doing and will support the product, but we release instructional DVDs ourselfs and customers are the most important part for all that work.
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Many thanks for your feedback!
As I posted earlier, the size/quality/cost of 2.5 hours of video in the LLVJ downloads is a bit of a balancing act but one that is easily adjusted. I am looking for a judicious balance between quality and size without the cost of huge bandwidth requirements to either the customer or ourselves.
DVD-Video with MPEG2 is 720 x 480 pixels with on old clunky out-of-date codec - but it does look good on a TV set...
The equivalent quality is now available at half the file size with MPEG4/H.264 Currently the HiRes download size is 640 x 360 @24 fps with a variable bitrate and most customers have found the quality of them acceptable or better (for those who would like to see a sample go here). (http://luminous-landscape.com/video_journal/download_HiResQT.shtml)
As noted before, the DVDs are designed for television sets, the current downloads for computer monitors; each will look better on its native screen and not-as-good on its non-native one. If you look at the samples (http://luminous-landscape.com/video_journal/download_HiResQT.shtml), I do not believe the descriptions of juddering, crappy, etc justified - perhaps they refer to my camera work . But I do hear people complaining who convert them to DVD and play them on an HD set ...
I thank you for your compliments that the DVDs are high quality and believe me I will strive to find an equivalent quality or better solution for the Download products. Also remember that I will be producing physical DVDs through LLVJ-20 - so we have some time to go before the end of plastic DVDs.
Chris S
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DVD-Video with MPEG2 is 720 x 480 pixels with on old clunky out-of-date codec - but it does look good on a TV set...
The equivalent quality is now available at half the file size with MPEG4/H.264 Currently the HiRes download size is 640 x 360 @24 fps with a variable bitrate and most customers have found the quality of them acceptable or better (for those who would like to see a sample go here). (http://luminous-landscape.com/video_journal/download_HiResQT.shtml)
To be honest with you, I don't care if anybody else is satisfied with the video quality of the video downloads. Ansel Adams himself could rise from the grave and endorse them and I still wouldn't care (although I'd be impressed by the resurrection). I have seen them for myself and I say they look like crap and I don't want them.
I thank you for your compliments that the DVDs are high quality and believe me I will strive to find an equivalent quality or better solution for the Download products. Also remember that I will be producing physical DVDs through LLVJ-20 - so we have some time to go before the end of plastic DVDs.
That's good to know, except it hardly helps those of us who have made the mistake of converting our subscriptions, since customer service is unwilling to convert them back.
I have voted with my wallet by sending an e-mail to customer service, copying Chris and Michael, requesting my DVD subscription be restored or my money be refunded. I have absolutely zero interest in the download video version of LLVJ. The quality just isn't there, and I have no desire to watch 2.5 hours of video in a little window on a computer screen.
...Mike
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You can quote specs all you want - be it the nature of the beast or a mistake in your compiling - the download version is crap compared to the DVD version, period.
Does it look good in a native sized window on the computer? Yes. Does it look good on a TV or even full screen on a large monitor (that just about every single one of your customers is using DUH)? No.
So if you are abandoning your customers in that we will no longer have a nice product to enjoy in the living room where this WAS intended, fine, it's your own head you are cutting off. No on here is going to sit through 2-3 hours watching a mediocre youtube video at thier desk.
Watch that 8 orders turn into zero as soon as people discover this for themselves.
Here's a direct frame sample of the download version to the DVD version. The difference is OBVIOUS and gets a LOT worse as you enlarge it.
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The biggest issue with the DVD download is downloading the 180,000 parts. If it was a single ISO the DVD download would be awesome. (And if I hadn't already signed up to receive a handful of downloads.)
Having seen both versions I have to say that if the future of this is watching it in sub full screen while reading Bill Simmons ESPN chat transcript on my other monitor I'm not sure I'll care.
Why don't you just publish it through lulu.com? Those that want it can pay (publishing costs are like $7 a DVD through lulu) and have to futz with nothing except opening a package when it arrives.
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Chriss don't get me wrong I won't flame you but 24fps is just plain judder.
For video you need 59,94 to be exact for NTSC.
UNLESS you shoot on progressive HD, but than you need to feed it through a good deïnterlacer which can do a 3/2 pulldown which most people don't have.
Actually I have one and I can tell you that the downloads as they are now are REALLY very juddery on my projector.
I love to watch your beautiful work on the projector, I can't see myself sitting in front of my monitor for 2.5 hours, I already spend way too much time there.
Why not just do it this way (it's just an idea).
Drop all the downloads, drop the DVD.
Get ONE download file one large container/ISO file with the DVD the same you normally use to send out to the mastering facilities.
This way you don't have to do all the extra work, your mac or PC can decode the stuff almost real time nowadays whilst for H264 it's working like a night or two for 2.5 hours, and everyone is happy.
I'm even willing to pay 19.95 for my DVDs, heck even 24,95 if you want.
BUT PLEASE let me/us enjoy it on the bigscreen were the beautiful images belong.
The time of 32" displays is long gone, most people here own 42/50" plasmas or projectors and for example the Sri Lanka piece was absolutly breathtaking on the big screen.
You put so much work into the DVDs please don't ruin it by the so called hi-res downloads
If you want I can set it all up for you, we know how to make ISOs that everyone can read, you can send me by FTP the files I can make a downloadable ISO for you that everyone can burn, I can even shrink it down to 4.27GB if you want, you can download it one day later and put it online.
I'm willing to do this for free for you.
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The DVD-Video files product has been available for a five days - traditionallly the strongest period for sales. The product has reached an astounding 8 (EIGHT) sales... I think it highly unlikely that I will repeat this exercise for LLVJ-17. The demand is not sufficient to justify the time that I spent on it
Yes, but once DVD is no longer available, it will be a different story, I think. A lot of us who don't want to give up DVD are waiting as long as possible. We aren't in a big hurry to give up quality. Your target audience for the high quality download may be waiting to see what shakes out. As a matter of fact, if high quality is no longer available, I would cancel my subscription to LLVJ--and I am a charter subscriber (have all the DVD from Number 1 on).
--John
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Chris
I'm one of the eight . I also bought the earlier 'mid-res' downloads and I agree with the assessment that they looked good on the computer monitor at native size, but that's not how I want to watch the VJ either. Fine for tutorials etc, but not our LLVJ.....
I burnt a DVD from those 'mid-res' downloads using AoA DVD Creator. The result was sorta OK to watch on TV (SD PAL), but nowhere near the quality standards you had set for yourselves with earlier issues (I've got them all). I can imagine they would be downright awful on a good HD set. Also the lack of menus makes the whole thing a bit home videoish.
I think you may also be over estimating many people's willingness to mess around assembling files etc. Personally it doesn't bother me, but I know a few photographers who would pass on anything that required much more than pulling the DVD out of the package and popping it into the player.
I understand the bind you're in - although here in Western Australia the DVD has always arrived fairly promptly. However the volume of complaints about delivery on this forum made it obvious that you had to do something about it. On the other hand the fact that you had set high standards with your earlier productions means that there's bound to be disappointment when those standards are lowered - and there's no doubt in my mind that they have been lowered with the 'mid-res' downloads.
I hope you can find a satisfactory solution which avoids shipping of physical product, but at the same time maintains the high standards you have set for yourselves.
Regards
Frank
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I still don't understand the given explanation for why a simple ISO isn't available. If you are having trouble creating one, we'll help you. Bandwidth for us downloaders isn't an issue. Downloading multi GB files is routine for anyone on a high speed connection, which everyone ordering is.
If your real problem is your lack of a high speed upload - that's solved with a simple upgrade to your service. I find that is the true problem for most of these type operations. I only have a 1M UL connection myself, and I know how long it can take to UL a few GB.
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The problem is the store front software they are using doesn't support files that large. Chris tried to post an ISO image of the DVD, but when the store software puked on it, he had to find a way to divide it into smaller chunks.
Chris, I do appreciate the effort you have put into this. I'm shocked at the low volume of sales, and disappointed that you won't be pursuing this any further as a result. I urge you to give it one more attempt. You have the process figured out now, so it should be easier for LLVJ17.
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I would bet the limitation is with the server PHP and Apache settings, I am not aware of a hard limit in Zen Cart.
Can you define 'puked on it'?
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You'll have to ask Chris for the gory details.
It's quite possible that it's the PHP settings. I'm not sure how much control they have over the server configuration (is it their server, or a shared server?), but he may just need to update the .htaccess file in the Zen Cart directory to fix the problem.
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If it's shared, he would have to ask the host to change the settings which they may not do depending on circumstance. The solution would then be to use a dedicated server with adaquate resources, and set the parameters correctly or have it done.
Most common of situations like this is the PHP memory limit set too small, or the timeout set too short.
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I do not understand how Michael and Chris after all their hard work devising and filming the projects can be happy with reducing the viewing pleasure for customers and their families, I know that if I was able to produce top quality stuff like this then I would want people to view it at it's best.
I think the handling of this conversion to download has missed the point that quite a few people want to watch it on TV in comfort.
Frank
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I would very much appreciate the ISO file download and I'd be willing to spend a fair amount of money on it.
Nevertheless, as a current subscriber with a few more DVDs to be delivered before the end of my subscription, I see no need to convert at 1:1 to the download version as it is right now. It only takes a few days to receive the DVD by mail and it is far easier to wait a little than to download and burn the DVD. *But*, if the only way to receive a really high quality version of LLVJ is to download an ISO file and burn it it myself, I will do so. I assume that a lot of current subscribers feel the same about ISO downloads!
The reduced quality of the Hi-Res download imost certainly no option for me. I have seen it, and I didn't like the quality on my TV set. If this will be the only version LLVJ is delivered, I will let my subscription end with the last DVD delivered at my doorstep.
Chris, please re-consider your decision regarding ISO downloads!
Cheers,
Andrew
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In any business it is necessary to listen to customer feedback, but also to weigh demands against resources.
The move to download from DVD is an economic necessity. It is also one that has been met by considerable customer support. But, there have been objections, and so we are tying to find compromise. Putting an 4.1GB ISO version online for people to download is one such attempt.
But, when actual customer response is so slim as to make the effort / reward ratio so small as to render the exercise moot, one has to wonder how worthwhile continuing to do so might be.
In everything we do Chris and I need to balance demand against resources. Several people voiced displeasure at the loss of image quality with downloads. Fine. Understood. But when we offer an alternative, to then have only a handful of people take advantage forces us to consider our future plans accordingly.
In the best of all possible worlds we would like nothing better than to please everyone. But that's clearly not possible. So what we will do is to try and please as large an audience as possible within the constraints of the time and other resources available to us.
Michael
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Yes, but once DVD is no longer available, it will be a different story, I think. A lot of us who don't want to give up DVD are waiting as long as possible. We aren't in a big hurry to give up quality. Your target audience for the high quality download may be waiting to see what shakes out. As a matter of fact, if high quality is no longer available, I would cancel my subscription to LLVJ--and I am a charter subscriber (have all the DVD from Number 1 on).
--John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Absolutely on the mark.
The DVD delivery method is working better this time.
I have fios so downloads are not an issue. I just want the smooth quality of the current mailed dvd or better. I may watch any given video like the lightroon update as an low IQ download.
But, LL is for my eyes too and the dvd is the appropriate way.
Bob
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Can't you see you have not made a fair comparison??
You are still shipping DVDs. Most people still want a DVD and still got one, either alone or through subscription.
The download was offered far in advance and was cheap - I bet many people tried it. So far it looks like every single one of them that posts here said it sucks in comparison. Nevertheless we bougth it.
If you actually thought many people would be spending MORE money to get the same content, you're on another planet. Sure, some of us that wanted to have both version sjust because ordered the DVD download after you finally released it. Most will of course NOT because they already saw the show.
If the next Episode comes out as DVD download ONLY and you have low support, THEN you can cry about low turnout.
How about you tell us how many DVDs have shiped, how many low res downloads were sold and how many high res downloads were sold? THAT is the only meaningfull data right now if you are going to claim it 'wasn't worth it'. I still think there's another real reason.
No matter what, if a full res version be it download or mailed is not available for all future versions, my purchases will end with the last one released. I vote with my money.
I'm off my soapbox now, it's clear you guys have made up your minds for whatever hidden reason. Good luck, you guys produced some awesome work up till now. Too bad in the future people won't be able to fully experience it.
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Nevertheless, as a current subscriber with a few more DVDs to be delivered before the end of my subscription, I see no need to convert at 1:1 to the download version as it is right now.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125890\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I feel the same way and will also wait for my current DVD subscription to end before considering the download option. I hope that the ability to d/l a high quality ISO file will be offered.
Paul
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"Hidden reason"? Ya, right.
This is a two person operation with a part time customer support person and a part time technical support person. Our "hidden reason" is simply one of time and resources.
We're doing the best that we can. If you find it wanting, then go ahead and "vote with your dollars".
Michael
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The move to download from DVD is an economic necessity.
I'm sorry Michael, but what is the economic necessity of switching from DVD to crap-quality downloadable video? Why can Brooks Jensen continue to send out his LensWork Extended CD's, but you can no longer mail out the LLVJ DVD? How is your business case different than his? Do you need to raise the price to $24.95? Fine, do it. I'll pay it. That should easily cover any additional postage fees you're experiencing.
It is also one that has been met by considerable customer support.
You've said this before, but I'm sorry, I just don't believe you on this. Reading the responses on your own forum, it has been overwhelmingly negative.
How many people that converted their subscription to downloadable video are now regretting it? I certain regret doing it. Fortunately, I've been told mine is being switched back, since I never used any of the coupons.
Are you making the assumption that everyone who switched is happy? Are you assuming that silence is golden, and that if you're not hearing from someone, they must be happy? Two very naive assumptions if that's the case.
But, there have been objections, and so we are tying to find compromise. Putting an 4.1GB ISO version online for people to download is one such attempt.
But, when actual customer response is so slim as to make the effort / reward ratio so small as to render the exercise moot, one has to wonder how worthwhile continuing to do so might be.
In everything we do Chris and I need to balance demand against resources. Several people voiced displeasure at the loss of image quality with downloads. Fine. Understood. But when we offer an alternative, to then have only a handful of people take advantage forces us to consider our future plans accordingly.
But you're basing that decision on one, not real well executed attempt. There are two many other reasons why the downloadable DVD may not have sold.
- People still receiving the DVD aren't going to pay to download the same content.
- People who already purchased and watched the downloadable video won't purchase the same content again, at least not at full price
- People who don't like that the downloadable DVD is multiple parts that have to be reassembled probably gave it a pass.
As the DVD subscriptions run out, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the number of people purchasing the downloadable DVD will grow to a number to make it worthwhile.
Fix the problem with the online store, so the file can be delivered as a single ISO file, and you will attract a lot more people, while also making Chris' job easier. There is no reason that shouldn't be possible.
In the best of all possible worlds we would like nothing better than to please everyone. But that's clearly not possible. So what we will do is to try and please as large an audience as possible within the constraints of the time and other resources available to us.
But beyond just pleasing the mass market, don't you have pride in your product? Do you honestly believe that the quality of the downloadable video truly represents your work? You're selling out, and sacrificing quality for ease of delivery. That's a real shame. Your work deserves better.
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I have no interest in further defending what we are doing.
Believe as you wish. You're completely off base, but it's simply too tedious to argue it further here.
Michael
Ps: Without a download manager providing a single 4GB+ file would be folly. Would you like to start such a download over after some part of the chain craps out after 3 gigabytes? Be reasonable (and informed).
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Ps: Without a download manager providing a single 4GB+ file would be folly. Would you like to start such a download over after some part of the chain craps out after 3 gigabytes? Be reasonable (and informed).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Considering how few times I've ever had a problem I'd risk it. And that is with this horrible comcast connection. (Perhaps because this horrible comcast connection is fast when it works.)
Still don't know why you don't just toss it to a publish on demand house. It would probably be available via amazon that way.
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Ps: Without a download manager providing a single 4GB+ file would be folly. Would you like to start such a download over after some part of the chain craps out after 3 gigabytes? Be reasonable (and informed).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I download 4.1 GB Linux distributions as single DVD image files routinely, and it's rarely if ever a problem.
When it comes to file transfer, and internet protocol applications, I am very well informed, much more so than yourself I would hazard to guess. I am a software designer, and much of my 18 year career has been spent designing and implementing internet applications. I have written both FTP clients, and multi-client high performance FTP servers. I have also designed and implemented file transfer servers and clients that kick the crap out of FTP, using proprietary protocols which I also designed. I hold two patents in the field of large volume data transfer (US6014707 and US5878228 if you care to look them up). Do not try to tell me that I don't understand the difficulties of transferring data from one computer to another, as it is something I understand better than most.
You're right, this is tedious. We can at least agree on that. You have shown here, and in other issues that have come up, that you are a very black&white person. You prefer to just end debate, rather than give the real reasons why you are so set in your ways about this. I'd really like to hear why Brooks Jensen can make his business work mailing CD's, and you can't do the same. I don't see why mailing a DVD is any harder than mailing the millions upon millions of magazines that are mailed to homes every month.
You have obviously made up your mind on this, and have closed yourself off to listening to your customers. Sorry if we bore you. Maybe you should try to understand that the reason we haven't dropped this, is that we enjoy and care about your product, even if you don't. You should be happy to have customers that show this much passion about wanting to maintain the high quality of your product.
I will end it here, and simply allow my DVD subscription to run its course. At that time, if there is no satisfactory option available for me to receive LLVJ in a high quality format, then I will take my money elsewhere.
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Regrettably not everyone has your knowledge or familiarity with such downloads. We deal with almost a million people a month visiting the site and many, many thousands of paying customers from more than 80 countries worldwide.
This means being cognizant and sensitive to the needs of multiple constituencies. I can only say – believe me that we spend hours debating and mulling over the best way to run our operation. Nothing is taken for granted, and we strive to come up with the best solutions for our customers, within the constraints of sound business practice.
You mention Brooks, and the comparison is a good one. What you don't appreciate though is that about 9 months ago Canada Post eliminated the special mailing rate for media without prior warning. This raised out shipping costs 4 fold, making our DVD business largely uneconomic. Lenswork is published and mailed out of the US.
Move our fulfillment to the US? We tried that years ago. Doesn't work. At least not for us. Also, since 9/11 the US mail system has become a horror when it comes to timely delivery of non 1St Class mail. Mail first class? Uneconomical.
It's easy to snipe from the sidelines. I do it all the time. But when you're in the midst of running a business and trying to make the best decisions for both your customers and yourself the right answers aren't always apparent to the casual bystander.
That's why I am loath to debate this online. If we were sitting in a pub over a beer having a friendly chat I could easily help you understand the pros and cons of all the choices that we have made, and why they have been necessary. But, typing them out tediously like this is time consuming and non-productive.
Chris and I simply ask that people take it on faith that we are trying to make the best business and artistic decisions that we can. It would be folly to do otherwise, wouldn't it? If they don't jibe with your personal requirements, then that's regrettable, and you are free, as you say, to take your money elsewhere.
Michael
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I think indeed that the discussion is a bit harsch, and I try to keep it friendly
I understand the good work you do and the way you see the product fit.
However the biggest problem I'm having is not the resolution but the 24fps, I already mailed with Chriss about this but got a few responses and after that it went quiet
Why not do the following.
Make the DVD as it should be.
Than use a DIVX or XVID engine to make it a lot smaller.
I have seen several DVDs and the quality is indeed less than the real thing, but the pans are smooth.
The biggest problem can be seen on the highres downloads in the forest, just look at the pans when the camera pans between the trees, it really makes me sick and that is not the way it should be
There are ALOT of solutions.
If you want you can mail me the link to a ISO download and I can try to make it arround 1-2GB without sacrificing too much quality.
I'm willing to sacrifice some quality for downloads, but not the judder from 24fps that's just terrible.
Greetings,
Frank
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I'm willing to sacrifice some quality for downloads, but not the judder from 24fps that's just terrible.
I upped the frame rate from 18fps to 24fps to help smoothness - clearly this does not work well on a TV set designed for 30fps - but then the download was not designed for direct use on a TV set but rather through a conversion box such as an XBox or Apple TV. I will look at using 25 or 30 fps for the next encodes.
Also as mentioned earlier in this discussion, our server sftw. Apache does not recognise a file over 2GB and our server tech does not recommend the adjustment.
Chris S
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Please show me anywhere that says the file was 'meant for a conversion box'??
Your tech needs to keep up with the times. Your outdated version of Apache is limited but the limit was removed with 2.2 - tell him to upgrade, whoever he is.
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Please show me anywhere that says the file was 'meant for a conversion box'??
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=126124\")
From the main [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/video_journal/downloads.shtml]LLVJ Downloads page[/url]: "While the video quality of the DVDs is still superior, the high-res files, which measure 640 x 360 pixels, give excellent viewing up to twice their native size - easily suitable to sit back and watch on a computer monitor."
From the Download Video FAQ page (http://luminous-landscape.com/videos/Dwnld_Video-faq.shtml): "Q: Can I watch the files on a television set ?
A: Yes. While primarily designed to be watched on a computer monitor, there are various ways of viewing the download video on a television set.
The easiest is if your computer has an S-Video output. Also easy is a hardware device such as an Apple TV box or other X-Box-like device that can take digital files and export them as a component video signal. The files can also be transferred to a DVD-Video if you have the appropriate software to create a DVD-Video. But please remember, that since these files are highly compressed for download, the quality will not be quite as good as a regular DVD-Video. "
CS
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Thank you. From your earlier comment I thought you were implying a 'conversion' of framerate to make it smoother since that's what was being discussed, but I see you only meant 'conversion' as in signal to a TV. Converting a low framerate video to any other input source doesn't change it to be smooth.
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Chriss do you have a testfile with the new frame rate, maybe that can put an end to the discussion for me
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If you want an example of a good h264 encode with framerate and settings that look better on a tv, here's a regular show: http://videos.revision3.com/diggnation/010...-large.h264.mov (http://videos.revision3.com/diggnation/0103/diggnation--0103--2007-06-21hybrid--large.h264.mov)
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I'm sorry Michael, but what is the economic necessity of switching from DVD to crap-quality downloadable video? Why can Brooks Jensen continue to send out his LensWork Extended CD's, but you can no longer mail out the LLVJ DVD? How is your business case different than his? Do you need to raise the price to $24.95? Fine, do it. I'll pay it. That should easily cover any additional postage fees you're experiencing.
You've said this before, but I'm sorry, I just don't believe you on this. Reading the responses on your own forum, it has been overwhelmingly negative.
How many people that converted their subscription to downloadable video are now regretting it? I certain regret doing it. Fortunately, I've been told mine is being switched back, since I never used any of the coupons.
Are you making the assumption that everyone who switched is happy? Are you assuming that silence is golden, and that if you're not hearing from someone, they must be happy? Two very naive assumptions if that's the case.
But you're basing that decision on one, not real well executed attempt. There are two many other reasons why the downloadable DVD may not have sold.
- People still receiving the DVD aren't going to pay to download the same content.
- People who already purchased and watched the downloadable video won't purchase the same content again, at least not at full price
- People who don't like that the downloadable DVD is multiple parts that have to be reassembled probably gave it a pass.
As the DVD subscriptions run out, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the number of people purchasing the downloadable DVD will grow to a number to make it worthwhile.
Fix the problem with the online store, so the file can be delivered as a single ISO file, and you will attract a lot more people, while also making Chris' job easier. There is no reason that shouldn't be possible.
But beyond just pleasing the mass market, don't you have pride in your product? Do you honestly believe that the quality of the downloadable video truly represents your work? You're selling out, and sacrificing quality for ease of delivery. That's a real shame. Your work deserves better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=125958\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael,
My reply is to mikealex's post, but my sentiments go to you, Michael. I cannot express my feelings any better than mikealex.
I have LLVJ 1-15 on plastic, and LLVJ 16 as the downloadable version. I've peeked at it on my PC. I too, will not renew my long term subscription to LLVJ when it is due. I will be forgoing my own coupons to download future LLVJ issues. The format is not one that will hold my attention. I don't wish to watch this content on my PC, but rather on my large screen TV. I enjoy sharing the travel segments with my family and they in turn understand better my joy in photography.
True, it may be too costly and time consuming to produce given the resources available to you and Chris.
But, I believe that in the long run, you will find that LLVJ will become an economic dinosaur. And so one day we will be looking back and thinking "remember when?".
Regards,
Bob Petruzzelli
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Far more people seem to feel just the opposite, and are voting so with their dollars, but I appreciate your perspective. It often isn't possible to please everyone when making business as well as creative decisions.
Michael
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Micheal I think it can and Chriss has already taken the step to get it done.
The biggest problem with the downloads is NOT the resolution, you can go as low as 600x480 and people won't notice it on most flatscreens.
The biggest problem is the frame rate as I have been saying from the start (but hey I'm a videoguy from origin )
If you use 24fps or better for video 29,97fps there will be LOTS less complaints, the loss in resolution people now claim to see are mostly due to the deïnterlacer/scaler from the display trying to make something from the 18fps.
The problem with this is that ALL normal displays are meant to be run at 50hz or 60hz (59,94 to be exact).
Meaning if you use 24fps you have a native format of film, use a 3/2 pulldown and you have smooth pans, this can be done by almost all MODERN scalers/deïnterlacers, use 29,97fps and you can use a simple 2:2 pulldown or deïnterlacing progress.
In other words best is to leave out one field for example the odd or even and let the deïnterlacer add this, the picture will be softer than the regular DVD but it's a HUGE improvement over what's happening now.
I have run the recent high-res downloads to a very expensive videoscaler that can cope with 24fps and 18fps and even than the judder is almost unwatchable on anything higher than normal 32" size.
I have done a test with the LLVJ15 and decoded it at 29,97fps DivX and the quality was even on 2.85mtrs in width VERY watchable, total size increase about 20%, well that can't be the problem
Please listen and don't steam ahead because some people lack the skill of negotiation and only wave with their dollars.
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I have pretty much settled on the following specs for all HiRes download video. The process has been iterative in an attempt to get the best quality for the smallest size. I have used 15, 18, & 24 fps for various products but clearly the 30 fps (29.97) is going to work best for most people and the size penalty is modest.
Files:
.mov (Tutorials - supports chapter markers)
.mp4 (LLVJs - less problematic for Windows users)
Video:
H.264 codec
640x360 pixels
Millions of colours
29.97 fps progressive (deinterlaced)
variable bit rate between 600-800 kbits/sec
Sound:
IMA 4:1 Mono 24kHz (Tutorials)
AAC Stereo , 44.1kHz, 160 kbps (LLVJ videos with music)
Many thanks to all for their feedback! Let me know your reactions
CS
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If you have samples I can test it for you on the bigscreen
But make it tests with movement
But I think this will work out fine, although some displays will have problems with the vertical size, it's best to keep this at 480 and get something from the horizontal off, lets say bring that the 600-550.
The vertical is much more important for our preception of sharpness on flatscreens meant for television.
For multiformat systems like PC monitors it should not matter, but I don't think that's the final goal.
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Sounds good!
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it's best to keep this at 480 and get something from the horizontal off
Yes but...
That essentially brings it up to video native resolution 720 x 480, or in this case since all the video is 16:9 it would be 854 x 480 or almost double the size...
I will let you know when I post the first of the Print Tutorial files - should be in a week or two
CS
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Hummm, there is no variable output in the software, that's a shame.
Let's wait for the files and I will take a look, I think if the judder is gone I'm happy
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Yes Quicktime uses VBR, no one said otherwise. You set a max rate, it encodes below that.
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Why not simply post a poll on the website?
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Hi Chris,
I have now tried the new "high res" download and the DVD download and the difference is like chalk and cheese, the DVD version is both better on a computer monitor and a magnitude better on a TV screen (which is my preferred way to watch the VJ)
So, as things are at the moment my vote if for the DVD download.
Cheers
Bob
From the main LLVJ Downloads page (http://luminous-landscape.com/video_journal/downloads.shtml): "While the video quality of the DVDs is still superior, the high-res files, which measure 640 x 360 pixels, give excellent viewing up to twice their native size - easily suitable to sit back and watch on a computer monitor."
From the Download Video FAQ page (http://luminous-landscape.com/videos/Dwnld_Video-faq.shtml): "Q: Can I watch the files on a television set ?
A: Yes. While primarily designed to be watched on a computer monitor, there are various ways of viewing the download video on a television set.
The easiest is if your computer has an S-Video output. Also easy is a hardware device such as an Apple TV box or other X-Box-like device that can take digital files and export them as a component video signal. The files can also be transferred to a DVD-Video if you have the appropriate software to create a DVD-Video. But please remember, that since these files are highly compressed for download, the quality will not be quite as good as a regular DVD-Video. "
CS
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=126161\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I have re-encoded and replaced the California .mp4 file in the LLVJ-16 Download product.
I would like to get reaction to its quality. It is the same pixel size but the frame rate is upped from 24 to 29.97. For those viewing it on a television screen, this should improve things considerably
If you have purchased LLVJ-16 and would download that file again, log in to your order with your registered email & password here. (https://www.luminous-landscape.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=login)
Chris S
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Ideally the resolution would return in the future as well, because it is very noticeable - but the framerate is now correct and looks great! A BIG step in the right direction!
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Better, yes. Good enough, not for me. It doesn't solve the issue that I don't want to watch LLVJ on a computer screen, and I don't want to take the time to re-encode the video so I can watch it on my TV.
But, I'll be honest. Michael's arrogant and unsympathetic attitude towards his customers in this matter has completely soured my opinion of LLVJ (and no, I'm not stupid enough to believe that Michael actually cares about that). At this point, I'm not sure what it would take to win me back as a customer. I still intend to let my DVD subscription run it's course, and then, unless there is a DVD download option, I'm done.
...Mike
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"arrogant and unsympathetic..."
Isn't the internet wonderful? Anyone can spout whatever rude nonsense they wish.
This is a business decision sir, and as such was made based on factors which we have attempted to explain here to the best of our ability. The long and short of it is that the DVD model is simply becoming untenable economically.
Chris has been receptive to numerous suggestions made here about improving download quality, and we have committed to continuing DVD distribution through Issue #20, which is probably for the next couple of years.
If this is rude and unsympathetic then I sincerely hope that you never see me when I truly am either of those things.
Michael
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I have requested the cancellation of the remainder of my LLVJ subscription, and a full refund for the undelivered DVDs. Mr. Reichmann has proven to be a person with whom I no longer wish to conduct business.
...Mike
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@mike,
I think you are overreacting and not by a small margin.
The problem of the internet is you can't see people in the face so the written word can come over wrong.
I have not found anything Michael or Chriss said to be wrong, it was a bit short due to the posts they got from the forum which I can understand by the way, and I think it was meant as harsch, but when you are approached harsch, you will respond harsch, that's the normal result.
If they were really not thinking about the customers, they would have not looked into the issue I brought up, and Chriss has as far as I can see now solved it, have to watch the clip on my projector this evening to be sure but I'm glad they listened.
Offcourse I also want DVD downloads, but they made clear it's not possible and to be quite honest I don't care if the judder is gone.
Offcourse we want HD downloads in Ts form but than someone will claim they can't read that, or their B&W set doesn't compute
The product is solid, although I would love to see more releases a year
The quality is worse than DVD, but to be honest without the judder perfectly watchable.
The remarks about you don't want to watch on a PC monitor I also understand, but why would you ?
You can recode the whole think automaticly nowadays in about an hour.
Or even better by a mediaplayer, like the TIVX, PMS Media Box or a load of others, you can can download everything you want from HD streams to DVD's, Music, MP4, youtube whatever, put it on the network in your house, connect the box to the TV and browse and play every file, we are using that in our Home Theater for some years now and it's killer
On the other hand, you have people who want to try to adjust and go into a serious discussion looking for a solution that will fitt both, or you have people that are just getting mad and destroy more than they want.
Just my rant, not meant as a flame.
Greetings,
Frank
ps. Come on Micheal give us the HD versions
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I have tried to help to come to a reasonable solution. I was the first to suggest a DVD download option; I worked with Chris through e-mail to help him understand the requirements on a PC to burn a DVD; I downloaded the DVD download test product and provided my feedback and instructions on how to burn it on a PC. I have not simply been another internet yahoo that has gotten mad and "spouted whatever rude nonsense I wished", as Mr. Reichmann suggests.
Chris has been nothing but polite, and is working hard to find a solution. Unfortunately, I don't feel the same can be said of Mr. Reichmann.
Like Mr. Reichmann's, my mind is made up. My opinion has been soured, and I don't expect I would enjoy watching the product any longer, regardless of the format it is delivered.
...Mike
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I regret losing any customer. But, I also have no tolerance for being insulted and misrepresented.
Enough said.
Michael
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Mr. Reichmann,
I am not an unreasonable person, although I'm sure you think otherwise at the moment. I'm sure my opinion of yourself is not entirely accurate either. I didn't get into this with the hope, or even expectation, of canceling my subscription. It's unfortunate it came to that.
When I said that your attitude was "arrogant and unsympathetic", all you had to do was ask me why I thought that. I would have told you, and we probably could have come to a better understanding of each other. I expect we would have worked this out without you losing a customer.
You have called me rude and insulting. You have said that I misrepresented you. You have even been mildly threatening ("If this is rude and unsympathetic then I sincerely hope that you never see me when I truly am either of those things.").
At no time have you asked me why I feel the way I do about how this has been handled, or why I think your attitude has been arrogant and unsympathetic.
Instead of calming the waters, you chose to fan the flames by lumping me in with all the internet yahoo's that "spout whatever rude nonsense they wish". I consider that rude and insulting, and that is why you lost a customer.
Maybe there is no solution that is going to satisfy me, but coming to that conclusion amicably with a customer leaves room for the customer to return when you do offer products of interest (I was looking forward to the printing tutorial). If a customer leaves on good terms, it's less likely they will give negative word of mouth advertising. Piss them off, and things are quite different.
Enough said.
...Mike
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Will open a new topic with my thoughts.