Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: nemophoto on June 11, 2007, 06:32:25 pm
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I've been using CS3 for several days now and have discovered what I think are bugs. I called Adobe and they assured me it was my system, not the program. . . yeah, right.
Two of the bugs I've had are the following:
1) Printing. Previously, if you used a printer other than the default, all subsequent printing would use that printer and setup until you changed it. Now, every image defaults back to the default printer. My default printer is a color laser -- great for everything but Photoshop. For Photoshop, I use the 4000 driver or one of my Colorburst RIP. It's annoying when I'm working on and proofing images for large jobs. The tech support guy for Adobe assured me that the printer setting should remain the same, not change back to default with each new image.
2) The image sizing pallet behaves differently from before. Previously, you could resize an image and change one setting to display percentage afterward so you could see a scaled dimension as the percentage of enlargement. Now, if you change the one dimension to show percentage after changing the size, it shows "100%", which is obviously not the case. Now you have to change dimension to percentage BEFORE resizing to get an accurate read on scale.
These may just be quirks, but for me, they're annoying in my workflow. Anyone else see it this way? Any other quirks or bugs discovered?
Nemo
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Just change the printer you use to the default. This was discussed in depth in another thread and arguably Photoshop is acting correctly now (and not before) in that it is choosing the printer which you have set as the default to do your printing.
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Some additional info here that I read this morning.
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2007/06/printing_in_cs3.html (http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2007/06/printing_in_cs3.html)
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Some additional info here that I read this morning.
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2007/06/printing_in_cs3.html (http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2007/06/printing_in_cs3.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122407\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for directing me to the blog. It explained a lot, and also highlighted the stupidity of the Photoshop printing module, that it can't seem to pickup (or doesn't want to pick up) data regarding a printer's margins. Pretty dumb. I also have no desire to "print the way a Mac prints" in Photoshop. I want to print the way I want to print, and have for many years -- set the printer setup once and go on my merry way. Carol's suggestion of resetting the default printer is unworkable. I'm often doing multiple things at once: picking up emails and printing out shot selections from clients as I'm working on the RAW and outputting proofs, outputting the FedEx airbill. This is, after all, about multi-tasking. It's a small thing, but all other programs can maitain printer settings program-wide. Why can't Photoshop?
And there's still the image resizing bug. . .
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It explained a lot, and also highlighted the stupidity of the Photoshop printing module, that it can't seem to pickup (or doesn't want to pick up) data regarding a printer's margins.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122457\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Then you didn't understand what Dave said...1) in Vista, page margins are READ ONLY...meaning an application can't change them and 2) this is the way it's always been for Mac. So, for CS3, all page margins are respected by Photoshop CS3 regardless of what system you are on. For XP, this is a change. Tough. It's not "dumb", it's the way it is. Photoshop has been trying to cover for the problems caused by print drivers and now, for Vista they can't. So, it will be up to the printer companies to fix their own darn problems cause Photoshop can't any more.
With regards to the "Default Printer" issue, what part of "default" don't you understand. When a printer is set as "default" in the system, application should respect that-right? I mean you set it to default, right? Perhaps for the way YOU use your printers, the Photoshop CS2 approach of ignoring defaults was convenient but it can be argued that it violated the concept of "default" as set by the OS. Personally, I would argue that CS3 FIXES the previous misbehavior of CS2.
That's what Dave wrote...trying to explain that. And it ain't a bug when the engineering is done that way on purpose.
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Then you didn't understand what Dave said...1) in Vista, page margins are READ ONLY...meaning an application can't change them and 2) this is the way it's always been for Mac. So, for CS3, all page margins are respected by Photoshop CS3 regardless of what system you are on. For XP, this is a change. Tough. It's not "dumb", it's the way it is. Photoshop has been trying to cover for the problems caused by print drivers and now, for Vista they can't. So, it will be up to the printer companies to fix their own darn problems cause Photoshop can't any more.
With regards to the "Default Printer" issue, what part of "default" don't you understand. When a printer is set as "default" in the system, application should respect that-right? I mean you set it to default, right? Perhaps for the way YOU use your printers, the Photoshop CS2 approach of ignoring defaults was convenient but it can be argued that it violated the concept of "default" as set by the OS. Personally, I would argue that CS3 FIXES the previous misbehavior of CS2.
That's what Dave wrote...trying to explain that. And it ain't a bug when the engineering is done that way on purpose.
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I do not uderstand the reason to be offensive at any time.
I'm so experienced on software that I can affirm that the rule: systemdefault = applicationdefault can be assumed or not. In any case it is not a violation.
I think (I am sure) that an application must try to satisfy Clients.
I wrote Clients with an initial capital letter. It seems Adobe is ignoring Clients.
Jacopo
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I do not uderstand the reason to be offensive at any time.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122470\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I wasn't trying to be offensive...when I'm trying to be offensive, I leave no doubt of my intentions...I was being conversational. I would have said the words in the exact same manner if the guy I was talking to were standing right in front of me-and I wasn't talking to you, was I?
The post I was responding to (from nemophoto) said that what Dave wrote "highlighted the stupidity of the Photoshop printing module" and went on to say that the way CS3 dealt with margins was "Pretty dumb".
Uh huh. . .well, in Vista, page margins are now READ ONLY and set by the print driver...meaning that the system won't let an application change them. So, for the entire Windows version of Photoshop CS3, the ability to have Photoshop TRY to force the margins was removed...some people don't like that. Uh huh, I get that...tough.
MSFT decided to change the way the OS works...applications have to adapt. And expecting Photoshop to adapt to TWO DIFFERENT OS REQUIRMENTS just ain't gonna happen. If you want to complain to somebody, complain to MSFT for changing Windows. Or, complain to the printer makers for writting drivers that suck for users who print photos. You might have a shot of the printer companies listening...
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I wasn't trying to be offensive...when I'm trying to be offensive, I leave no doubt of my intentions...I was being conversational.
BUt .....
Then you didn't understand what Dave said...
I think it is offensive.
and I wasn't talking to you, was I?
Is a forum a place for private conversation? I think I'm free to expose my opinions. Readers can have a benefit from differet points of view
Jacopo
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Jeff has a very outspoken, direct, honest writing style that often seems to rub some people the wrong way (me included). However, he is very generous in sharing his vast knowledge with the rest of us, and for that I am extremely grateful. I have learned a huge amount from him. I also think he has been deliberately toning down his rhetoric lately, probably at Michael's request. And when he says,
I wasn't trying to be offensive...when I'm trying to be offensive, I leave no doubt of my intentions...I was being conversational.
, you can bet he's telling it exactly like it is.
That being said, thanks to Jeff, I now understand why printing in CS3 is "broke," in my view and for many others who are used to the way PS has always behaved in Windows. And, yes, the main fault seems to be Microsoft's messing up Vista.
For me, upgrading to CS3 or Vista will have to wait until somebody (Adobe, Microsoft, Epson, Hackers Anonymous, ...) comes up with a way (1) to set an application-default printer that is sticky at least through a PS session, and (2) to work around the stupid "read-only" margins so that a print can be centered easily. Until those (mandatory, for me) features are there, CS3 and Vista are dead in the water as far as I am concerned.
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For me, upgrading to CS3 or Vista will have to wait until somebody (Adobe, Microsoft, Epson, Hackers Anonymous, ...) comes up with a way (1) to set an application-default printer that is sticky at least through a PS session, and (2) to work around the stupid "read-only" margins so that a print can be centered easily. Until those (mandatory, for me) features are there, CS3 and Vista are dead in the water as far as I am concerned.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I concur. Neither "upgrade" is being installed here.
--John
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"Then you didn't understand what Dave said..."
I think it is offensive.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122563\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
English isn't your native language, is it?
Go back and reread what I wrote...I was telling nemophoto that he didn't understand what Dave wrote...which is very clear and obvious to anybody who read what Dave wrote...have YOU read what Dave wrote? Did YOU understand it? If you did, I think you would have to agree that nemophoto didn't understand what Dave wrote...
I think I'm free to expose my opinions.
Yep...right up to the point where Michael says enough...this ain't a democracy bud...this is a private forum for the use of registered users of the Luminour Landscape. You are free to "expose" (did you mean express?) your opinions, no matter how screwed up they are...
:~)
Now, you wanna to get in a dustup with me or do you wanna talk about the issue at hand?
As to the rest of the folks who are gonna bypass Photoshop CS3 because of this "issue" ok, fine...read what Dave wrote...you'll be sitting around and waiting till Photoshop CS4 then...too bad really, Photoshop CS3, Camera Raw 4.1 and Bridge 2.1 are all pretty darn good. But if you are too lazy to 1) change your default printers and 2) make custom margins that are all equal than therefore wish to stay on Photoshop CS2, that is your right. Have fun being a step behind on the rest of your workflow.
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As to the rest of the folks who are gonna bypass Photoshop CS3 because of this "issue" ok, fine...read what Dave wrote...you'll be sitting around and waiting till Photoshop CS4 then...too bad really, Photoshop CS3, Camera Raw 4.1 and Bridge 2.1 are all pretty darn good. But if you are too lazy to 1) change your default printers and 2) make custom margins that are all equal than therefore wish to stay on Photoshop CS2, that is your right. Have fun being a step behind on the rest of your workflow.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122640\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would love to use the new goodies in CS3. But with all the finger-pointing that has gone on, it's quite possible that I haven't understood everything. I'd really like clarification on two points:
1. With respect to "changing my default printer": If, for example, I want to print, say, three different photos from PS to my Epson printer, and while that is going on, print three messages from my email onto my (normal default -- for everything except PS) HP Laserjet, it has sounded to me as if I have just two choices in Windows/CS3: One is to set my default printer to the Epson before I go into PS to print, and then go into the print dialog to specify the HP three separate times, once for each email message. The other is to do the reverse: Leave the HP as my default printer, and then in PS I will have to tell it to use the Epson separately for each and every print. Do I have that right?
2. With respect to the margins: I thought that Vista's margins were "read-only", so I would have no way to "make custom margins that are all equal". Can I in fact in CS3/Vista set something (custom paper size or whatever) so that I could in fact print to my Epson printer and get equal margins all around? I'm willing to do a little arithmetic once in a while, especially if I can make something into a sticky setting.
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1. With respect to "changing my default printer": If, for example, I want to print, say, three different photos from PS to my Epson printer, and while that is going on, print three messages from my email onto my (normal default -- for everything except PS) HP Laserjet, it has sounded to me as if I have just two choices in Windows/CS3: One is to set my default printer to the Epson before I go into PS to print, and then go into the print dialog to specify the HP three separate times, once for each email message. The other is to do the reverse: Leave the HP as my default printer, and then in PS I will have to tell it to use the Epson separately for each and every print. Do I have that right?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=122663\")
Correct...all applications are supposed to default to the system set "default printer"...
2. With respect to the margins: I thought that Vista's margins were "read-only", so I would have no way to "make custom margins that are all equal". Can I in fact in CS3/Vista set something (custom paper size or whatever) so that I could in fact print to my Epson printer and get equal margins all around? I'm willing to do a little arithmetic once in a while, especially if I can make something into a sticky setting.
The Printer Margins are something that are supposed to be set in the printer properties..once set in the properties then yes, they are now considered "read only" from the standpoint of the applications (meaning Photoshop can't come in and slam the margins to zero-which is what CS2 did). So, as long as the print driver allows setting "Maximum", or "Borderless" or custom margins where all 4 margins are equal, then yes, Photoshop CS3 can print centered...if the print properties margins are reporting unequal margins then Photoshop CS3 can't do anything about that. Since CS3 now respects the margins that the driver are reporting.
Which, arguably is correct behavior...which is also the way print drivers on Mac are. Which is what Dave wrote...
Adobe now has a technote about this (Mark, Dave decided it was worth it) see: [a href=\"http://www.adobe.com/go/kb402021]Photoshop CS3 images are not centered on Epson printers[/url]
Which DOESN'T apply to the new 3800 Win drivers since Epson "fixed" their drivers to report, at default, four margins of .13 inches...rather than the old 48/78/9800 drivers which report Top and Sides of .13 and a Bottom of .56.
So, ya see, it really is an Epson driver issue-something that Photoshop CS2 WAS able to overcome on XP, but which CS3 CAN NOT overcome on Vista...
Which is what Dave wrote...
:~)
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Correct...all applications are supposed to default to the system set "default printer"...
I would agree with that is the correct behaviour when the application opens, however, Photoshop deviates from the Windows norm by defaulting to the default printer every time the print dialogue box is opened.
The normal Windows behaviour exhibited by all Microsoft applications is to default to the default printer the first time that the user opens the print dialogue box after the application is started, however, should the printer or any of the settings be changed then these settings are retained each time the print dialogue is opened until the application is closed and restarted.
The current Photoshop behaviour is more than annoying it is a major design failure and neither improves efficiency in the workflow nor does it adhere to the standards that windows users have become accustomed to.
I would urge Adobe to rethink the behaviour of the windows dialogue box, however, suspect that this is not considered to be the major problem that it is. Suggesting that windows users have to change the default printer settings so that the settings stick each time you wish to run off 4-5 prints on the same paper is madness.
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Functions as coded.
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I would agree with that is the correct behaviour when the application opens, however, Photoshop deviates from the Windows norm by defaulting to the default printer every time the print dialogue box is opened.
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Is the windows norm the same in XP and Vista?
Regards,
Bernard
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Correct...all applications are supposed to default to the system set "default printer"...
The Printer Margins are something that are supposed to be set in the printer properties..once set in the properties then yes, they are now considered "read only" from the standpoint of the applications (meaning Photoshop can't come in and slam the margins to zero-which is what CS2 did). So, as long as the print driver allows setting "Maximum", or "Borderless" or custom margins where all 4 margins are equal, then yes, Photoshop CS3 can print centered...if the print properties margins are reporting unequal margins then Photoshop CS3 can't do anything about that. Since CS3 now respects the margins that the driver are reporting.
Which, arguably is correct behavior...which is also the way print drivers on Mac are. Which is what Dave wrote...
Adobe now has a technote about this (Mark, Dave decided it was worth it) see: Photoshop CS3 images are not centered on Epson printers (http://www.adobe.com/go/kb402021)
Which DOESN'T apply to the new 3800 Win drivers since Epson "fixed" their drivers to report, at default, four margins of .13 inches...rather than the old 48/78/9800 drivers which report Top and Sides of .13 and a Bottom of .56.
So, ya see, it really is an Epson driver issue-something that Photoshop CS2 WAS able to overcome on XP, but which CS3 CAN NOT overcome on Vista...
Which is what Dave wrote...
:~)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks very much for the clarifications, Jeff (even redundant information is sometimes helpful ).
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Is the windows norm the same in XP and Vista?
Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd like an answer to that one, too. Some of this discussion has left me with the impression that this has now changed in Vista, in which case I will indeed want to wait as long as possible before going the Vista route.
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I would argue that CS3 FIXES the previous misbehavior of CS2.
That's what Dave wrote...trying to explain that. And it ain't a bug when the engineering is done that way on purpose
How to sell lack of usability!
Jacopo
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Is the windows norm the same in XP and Vista?
Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you will find that question a red herring.
The behavious is determined by the application not the operating system. So, if I look at Microsoft Office on Win2K, XP, Vista it all exhibits the same behavious as to the default on first printer dialogue box and then sticky settings (e.g. printer setting changes) during the session.
I somehow doubt that the behaviour has changed for new applications (old application run the same on Vista as XP), but I am not a developer and there may be some missive from Microsoft instructing developers to follow a different policy - however, I suspect there would have been some noise about it if that was the case.
Adobe with PS CS3 has struck out in a different direction from all other windows applications - without giving any good reason for doing so.
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I'd like an answer to that one, too. Some of this discussion has left me with the impression that this has now changed in Vista, in which case I will indeed want to wait as long as possible before going the Vista route.
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I have Vista and as Microsoft advertising suggests I did go Wow...
...Wow how could someone make something so difficult to use and take away so many features I was used to using.
If ever there was a good reason to migrate to OS X then Vista is it.
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OK not to stray to far from the issue of printing with WIN & CS3 but here are two issues that I can't find answers to:
1) What happened to (in WIN) Network Places in Bridge v2? Was ther in the previous versions in the Folders Tab but not now.
2) Why did CS3 change the behavior of Windows by changing the dialog when a external card, hardrive, etc. are mounted? Prior you got a list of possible actions and now it is only "Download using Bridge" or "No Action". I preferred using the Folder view to handle many tasks (especially since lots of times using Bridge is not the way I want to handle the task). Is there a way to reset this mess to the OS level method?
That's all.
Ken Gehle
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.......
1) What happened to (in WIN) Network Places in Bridge v2? Was ther in the previous versions in the Folders Tab but not now..........
That's all.
Ken Gehle
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122771\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Do it yourself if you need it.
Click on 'Folders', look in 'Desktop' (top of the tree). Right click on 'Network Places', choose 'Copy to Favourites' - it really is that simple.
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I think you will find that question a red herring.
The behavious is determined by the application not the operating system. So, if I look at Microsoft Office on Win2K, XP, Vista it all exhibits the same behavious as to the default on first printer dialogue box and then sticky settings (e.g. printer setting changes) during the session.
I somehow doubt that the behaviour has changed for new applications (old application run the same on Vista as XP), but I am not a developer and there may be some missive from Microsoft instructing developers to follow a different policy - however, I suspect there would have been some noise about it if that was the case.
Adobe with PS CS3 has struck out in a different direction from all other windows applications - without giving any good reason for doing so.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122756\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. All other programs, written by other vendors, maintain the printer settings, if changed from the dafault, until otherwise changed again. If I'm doing pre-press on 40 images and sending them to my RIP for hard copy, I don't want to have to change my printer setting each time. I want to simply hit "Print" and go on. Adobe chose to be "more like a Mac" with CS3 (based on the blog). Personally, I don't care to be more like a Mac. For all the good things, there are plenty of poorly designed things on a Mac. Ever heard of "right click context menuing"?
And the issue of Image Sizing still stands -- it's all screwed up when trying to get different values for "percentage" and "inches".
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As to the rest of the folks who are gonna bypass Photoshop CS3 because of this "issue" ok, fine...read what Dave wrote...you'll be sitting around and waiting till Photoshop CS4 then.
This is the perfect example of why I love/hate PS.
Some of us have to produce and arbitrary changes can wreck productivity. My expectation is for any product to fit my workflow, not the other way around, and for any upgrade to provide new possibilities I can incorporate as I get time without throwing me blindly into a situation that brings production to a halt.
I won't be sitting around waiting, but I won't be using CS3 any time soon, either.
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Adobe now has a technote about this (Mark, Dave decided it was worth it) see: Photoshop CS3 images are not centered on Epson printers (http://www.adobe.com/go/kb402021)
Which DOESN'T apply to the new 3800 Win drivers since Epson "fixed" their drivers to report, at default, four margins of .13 inches...rather than the old 48/78/9800 drivers which report Top and Sides of .13 and a Bottom of .56.
So, ya see, it really is an Epson driver issue-something that Photoshop CS2 WAS able to overcome on XP, but which CS3 CAN NOT overcome on Vista...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Jeff,
It is good to see that Adobe has now published a Tech Note on the issue. This will be very helpful to some of those who have not yet had to struggle through this issue, but without the Note would have once confronted with it. I presume you had something to do with that and it is a good contribution. That said, the Note will not be useful to others. For example, the instructions given do not cohere with Epson driver 5.51 for Windows. Perhaps an expanded version is needed to detail with the several current Epson drivers.
Of course this issue was also discussed to death in another thread on this website so there is no need to rehash it all here. I have only two short comments:
(1) What Adobe did was intentional therefore I agree with you, not a bug. That doesn't mean it is satisfactory for the many people who have Epson X800 (not 3800) printers and use Microsoft operating systems and prefer to keep another printer as their default and for whom all of this worked very well with CS2. That is why I have been encouraging the notion of a configurable print module that will assist the many thousands of people with these printers and either XP or Vista to retain automated, centered print workflows much better than now possible in CS3.
(2) Anyone who thinks they shouldn't up-grade to CS3 because of this change should re-think. It really is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, because there is so much else about CS3 and ACR 4 that is truly excellent; furthermore, as consumers we really don't have any control over whether or when Adobe and/or Epson will change anything in the Print Module - they may well have other priorities. Meanwhile for ease and convenience I continue printing from CS2 - but I do everything else in CS3. It's all seemless this way - win-win.
Cheers,
Mark
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Do it yourself if you need it.
Click on 'Folders', look in 'Desktop' (top of the tree). Right click on 'Network Places', choose 'Copy to Favourites' - it really is that simple.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122975\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And Adobe's answer was to make a short cut of My Network Places on my desktop. Sure that will work but why should I have to do this now when it wasn't needed before? Their other suggestion was Version Cue.
I don't use the Favorites Tab. Never have. I like using the Folder Tab since I move up and down sub folders as I work.
Aarrgg - this crap just makes me mad! No answer why the change from Adobe and all of the "work arounds" are not better than the way it used to work. Makes total sense to me
Ken Gehle
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With regards to the "Default Printer" issue, what part of "default" don't you understand. When a printer is set as "default" in the system, application should respect that-right? I mean you set it to default, right? Perhaps for the way YOU use your printers, the Photoshop CS2 approach of ignoring defaults was convenient but it can be argued that it violated the concept of "default" as set by the OS. Personally, I would argue that CS3 FIXES the previous misbehavior of CS2.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122458\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Jeff, I respectfully disagree. I have several printers attached to my PC and which one I use is highly dependent on the application I'm in. Its a nice productivity enhancement to have the application remember which one I used the last time. Most of my apps do.
Applications are not required to follow the system defaults for things like printers. Adobe chose to take that path. Everyone will get over it eventually but its niggles like these that stand out when most things seem to be working smoothly.
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Hi Jeff,
It is good to see that Adobe has now published a Tech Note on the issue. This will be very helpful to some of those who have not yet had to struggle through this issue, but without the Note would have once confronted with it. I presume you had something to do with that and it is a good contribution. That said, the Note will not be useful to others. For example, the instructions given do not cohere with Epson driver 5.51 for Windows. Perhaps an expanded version is needed to detail with the several current Epson drivers.
Of course this issue was also discussed to death in another thread on this website so there is no need to rehash it all here. I have only two short comments:
(1) What Adobe did was intentional therefore I agree with you, not a bug. That doesn't mean it is satisfactory for the many people who have Epson X800 (not 3800) printers and use Microsoft operating systems and prefer to keep another printer as their default and for whom all of this worked very well with CS2. That is why I have been encouraging the notion of a configurable print module that will assist the many thousands of people with these printers and either XP or Vista to retain automated, centered print workflows much better than now possible in CS3.
(2) Anyone who thinks they shouldn't up-grade to CS3 because of this change should re-think. It really is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, because there is so much else about CS3 and ACR 4 that is truly excellent; furthermore, as consumers we really don't have any control over whether or when Adobe and/or Epson will change anything in the Print Module - they may well have other priorities. Meanwhile for ease and convenience I continue printing from CS2 - but I do everything else in CS3. It's all seemless this way - win-win.
Cheers,
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123003\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I opted for the Qimage route----and it is indeed a successful workaround for the "Epson/CS3 center print issue."
CS3 is definitely worth the upgrade from CS2.....
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And Adobe's answer was .........
Ken Gehle
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123164\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
First off I am not Adobe, I am a photographer in the UK
Secondly, if you prefer working with just the folder - click on the grey arrowhead next to 'Desktop' and choose 'Network Places' from the drop down list (it's the 3rd item down).
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First off I am not Adobe, I am a photographer in the UK
Secondly, if you prefer working with just the folder - click on the grey arrowhead next to 'Desktop' and choose 'Network Places' from the drop down list (it's the 3rd item down).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123373\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Carol I realize you are not with Adobe. My mention of Adobe is that I have been talking with them. Yes, your solution is the answer. I just don't undertsand why they made this change of no including Network Places in the Folder tree as a root entry as it was in previous Bridge versions. Even though it is a tiny change in the big picture of things I will have to unlearn the old way I did it. Yes, I will "get over it" but this change from previous way it was program has me scratching my head.
Thanks for your help,
Ken Gehle
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Applications are not required to follow the system defaults for things like printers. Adobe chose to take that path. Everyone will get over it eventually but its niggles like these that stand out when most things seem to be working smoothly.
Although this has been mentioned in at least one of the other threads, there is also some controversy as to the meaning of "default".
Adobe and Schewe appears to have taken the following (and I daresay radical) meaning to heart:
"default" = "standard that you must have good technical reasons to not use"
Rather than the more conservative:
"default" = "setting that you default to in the absence of an application or user specified setting"
It's like Mb = Megabytes or Megabits, all over.
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Just understand my position...I'm only reporting what was done by Adobe and why, to point out it wasn't an error or bug. I really have no dog in this hunt since I print from Mac. I only tested CS3 under Windows to see what other people were calling bugs. The fact that Mac & Win now have the same behavior is no skin off my nose ya know.
And I'll be the first to say that I think easy and accuracy of printing from either Mac or Win sucks...it sucks cause the OS gets in the way, ColorSync gets in the way, print drivers suck and the way that Photoshop has to deal with printing sucks.
But unlike some people, I'm more interested in finding out why and doing something about it rather than just taking a Blame Adobe™ approach...I've had several conversations with Epson (where I do have some pull) and one wonders why the newest Epson driver-for the 3800-is actually defaulting to 4 equal margins? Could it be that others as well as myself complained that since the friggin' driver CAN print borderless the old "have more margin for the gripper" is pretty silly?
Lightroom is paving the way allowing people to save presets for printer, page setup, profile, etc allowing a more productive printing environment. Don't be at all surprised to see Photoshop going down that road as well.
All the Blame Adobe™ approach does is to place your anger and frustion at the wrong place and let's the other guys off the hook. Complain to MSFT, Apple and Epson (or other printer makers) and say this sucks....fix it.
I'm actually kinda glad that now printing from Win and Mac both suck about equally...maybe there's more incentive now to fix stuff. There's only so much Adobe can do ya know?
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But unlike some people, I'm more interested in finding out why and doing something about it rather than just taking a Blame Adobe™ approach...I've had several conversations with Epson (where I do have some pull) and one wonders why the newest Epson driver-for the 3800-is actually defaulting to 4 equal margins? Could it be that others as well as myself complained that since the friggin' driver CAN print borderless the old "have more margin for the gripper" is pretty silly?
Indeed, this is silly.
I've never had reason to stop shaking my head at the general quality of printer drivers.
Life was easier with Postscript laser printers.
Lightroom is paving the way allowing people to save presets for printer, page setup, profile, etc allowing a more productive printing environment. Don't be at all surprised to see Photoshop going down that road as well.
Yes, that does look promising!
Although it looks like we'll have to wait until 2009 and CS4, right?
All the Blame Adobe™ approach does is to place your anger and frustion at the wrong place and let's the other guys off the hook. Complain to MSFT, Apple and Epson (or other printer makers) and say this sucks....fix it.
Complaining to Microsoft, Apple and Epson won't fix Adobe's NewSpeak interpretation of "default", and won't make life easier for those of us with two printers.
I'm actually kinda glad that now printing from Win and Mac both suck about equally...maybe there's more incentive now to fix stuff. There's only so much Adobe can do ya know?
I'd like to put it in another way:
I'm glad that Adobe apparently has taken the time to recode -- or at least refactor some -- what appears to be large parts of the Photoshop code base, while allowing almost everything to work as expected for even a Photoshop 5 user.
If Microsoft, Apple or Epson had taken similar care of their customers, well, wouldn't that be something?
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I'm actually kinda glad that now printing from Win and Mac both suck about equally...maybe there's more incentive now to fix stuff. There's only so much Adobe can do ya know?
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Perhaps it is just me, but in CS2 on Windows I had no problem with printing from Photoshop. Now that we have to dumb down to to the Apple experience it now 'sucks' (to use your expression) in CS3 on Windows. If that is what Adobe (Trademark) want to call progress then I am really looking forward to CS4 with a great deal of excitement. Apple is good at some things, not all things, and I do get the feeling that Adobe made the wrong choice even if it was made for all the right reasons.
NB This is not to knock the fact that CS3 does have a lot of good features , and its fair share of additional bugs as well
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Now that we have to dumb down to to the Apple experience it now 'sucks' (to use your expression) in CS3 on Windows.
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Yep. . .but it wasn't an attempt to dumb down but bring platform agnostic usability. To be honest, Adobe got tired of engineering around the flaws and limitations of ALL OS's and their print drivers...and Vista is a pretty major pain to both application developers as well as hardware drivers. It is hoped it will get "better" when the print drivers get better-which will be possible with the Vista print pipeline as well as Leopard.
I also think that the next competitive battleground will be the usability of print drivers. HP's are pretty darn good on their recent printers. Canon makes some good printers but the drivers and the usability sucks. We've seen a lot of changes that are more orientated towards print heads and ink but not a lot yet in the drivers. That's where a lot of usability can be improved...and it's useful if the printer makers hear about how bad their stuff is for photographers. Which is why the whole Print with Preview was first developed...Chris Cox got pissed off making prints and pretty much wrote it. But between code evolution and new platform requirements, maintaining it wasn't feasible.
So, piss & moan to Adobe if it makes you feel better, but if you want a better printing environment, take the message to Apple, MSFT & the printer makers-that's who has to hear your frustrations...so they can do something about it.
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Yep. . .but it wasn't an attempt to dumb down but bring platform agnostic usability. To be honest, Adobe got tired of engineering around the flaws and limitations of ALL OS's and their print drivers...and Vista is a pretty major pain to both application developers as well as hardware drivers. .................
I also think that the next competitive battleground will be the usability of print drivers. ..................
So, piss & moan to Adobe if it makes you feel better, but if you want a better printing environment, take the message to Apple, MSFT & the printer makers-that's who has to hear your frustrations...so they can do something about it.
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Jeff, I think we've discussed this to death, but I'll chime in once more - you are making good points, especially about the involvement of other players - I have also suggested that there needs to be broad industry co-operation in resolving the print centering problem (and a re-think at Adobe about the default printer issue), but I would strongly encourage Adobe to be part of the effort on the centering issue. They have a material interest in it, as do their clients.
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With regards to the "Default Printer" issue, what part of "default" don't you understand. When a printer is set as "default" in the system, application should respect that-right? I mean you set it to default, right? Perhaps for the way YOU use your printers, the Photoshop CS2 approach of ignoring defaults was convenient but it can be argued that it violated the concept of "default" as set by the OS. Personally, I would argue that CS3 FIXES the previous misbehavior of CS2.
That's what Dave wrote...trying to explain that. And it ain't a bug when the engineering is done that way on purpose.
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I think I have just encountered a new variation on the "default printer" feature in CS3 (on Windows XP).
I seldom print directly from CS3, preferring to use ImagePrint or QTR or Qimage. But today I wanted to make a couple of quick prints from CS3, in color. My "default" printer is a monochrome HP Laserjet 1200 that does just about everything that hasn't gone through Photoshop. For color I have an Epson 2200.
So, since I wanted color for all six prints, I selected the Epson printer from the print dialog, and clicked "page setup". Up popped the "Epson 2200 Properties" dialog which let me change from the default portrait setting to landscape for the first print. Then I printed, and all was fine.
I then went to print the second print. Now, contrary to what I had been led to expect from the wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth in this thread, the indicated printer was still the Epson, and not the "default" HP. But the preview showed that it had reverted to portrait.
No problemo. I just clicked on "Page Setup" again, and up popped the "HP Laserjet 1200 Properties" dialog, even though the currently selected printer was still the Epson!
Now if this behavior is what Mac users are used to, I surely don't want to switch to a Mac.
I did discover a workaround: I had to select a different printer (anything but the already-selected Epson), and then select the Epson again before I could ever get the Epson Properties dialog to come up.
I guess my question is this: Is this a "bug", an "undocumented feature" or an example of CS3 "fixing" what was broken in CS2?
In CS2, whenever the selected printer was "X" and I asked for "Page Setup", I always got the page setup dialog for printer "X", not for printer "Y", regardless of which was the "default".
I'm still having trouble understanding the Macintosh definition of "default", I guess.
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I just tried CS3 and IE7 on both Vista and XP:
One thing that is important to remember is that both are MDI (multiple document interface) applications - changes made to one document in the application do not affect other documents including print settings.
Vista: CS3 respects the system (ie OS) default printer. If another additional document is opened, that document when printed, will also use the system default printer. Printer settings are *not* "inherited between documents within the same application. IE7 has *identical* behavior.
XP: Same behavior
hth - John
ps: Firefox (2.0.0.6) - same behavior
Apparently developers from all three shops are drinking from the same jug of Koolaid . . .
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I just tried CS3 and IE7 on both Vista and XP:
One thing that is important to remember is that both are MDI (multiple document interface) applications - changes made to one document in the application do not affect other documents including print settings.
Vista: CS3 respects the system (ie OS) default printer. If another additional document is opened, that document when printed, will also use the system default printer. Printer settings are *not* "inherited between documents within the same application. IE7 has *identical* behavior.
XP: Same behavior
hth - John
ps: Firefox (2.0.0.6) - same behavior
Apparently developers from all three shops are drinking from the same jug of Koolaid . . .
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But that's not the behavior I got from CS3 on XP. When another additional document is opened, if a different printer was selected for the first document, then that same printer is selected for the second document. However, the "page setup" dialog is for the "default" printer and not for the selected printer.
I just tried printing two documents from each of Opera 9.23 and Firefox 2.0.0.7, and the "page setup" dialog is always for whatever printer is currently selected (and yes, both follow the much maligned, ugly, old-fashioned but often useful Windows tradition of keeping the selected printer for subsequent documents rather than reverting to the default after each one.)
My point is: CS3 most emphatically does not return to the default printer after each document is printed (or, if it does, it is claiming not to, which is hardly a useful feature; Maybe when it says the selected printer is my Epson, it really means my default HP???).
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Eric: I'll stand partly corrected - here is what I just saw with CS3 on XP
Launch CS3 and open a doc. File Menu | Print:
(http://washhome.com/images/cs3-print-dialog-doc-1.jpg)
This, of course is my system default printer
Now, I change the desired printer:
(http://washhome.com/images/cs3-print-dialog-alt-printer-doc-1.jpg)
After opening a 2nd document, the selecting File | Print:
(http://washhome.com/images/cs3-print-dialog-doc-2.jpg)
What I found was messing around with color mgmt, or page setup dialog resulted in the *application* default printer, along with settings being changed for all open documents:
(http://washhome.com/images/cs3-print-dialog-doc-2-2nd-try.jpg)
Then switching via the Window Menu:
(http://washhome.com/images/cs3-print-dialog-doc-1-2nd-try.jpg)
Pretty damn confusing . . . .
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Pretty damn confusing . . . .
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I totally agree with you here.
My question is really this: Suppose for your second document you want to use "\\dc1\color", and this printer shows in the "printer" box. Then you click on "Page Setup" and a window pops up with settings for "\\dc1\admin" instead. (This is what happens to me.)
If you choose to "print" at that point, which printer will it use? If you want to change settings for "\\dc1\color" it seems you need to select a different printer and then reselect "\\dc1\color" again, or else "page setup" will go back to referring to "\\dc1\admin".
As for "application default printer", I wish there were one! When I'm printing from Excel or WordPerfect or a web browser, 99% of the time I want to print to my system default printer, which is my HP 1200. But when I'm printing from PS, 99% of the time I want to use my Epson 2200. As far as I can see, the only "default" choice I have is a system default printer, and if I change that for one app, the new default stays in effect for any other app.
At the very least, CS3 is giving me wrong information in one of the two places that specifies current printer.
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Here is a screen shot from CS3, with two different printers (specified in two locations):
[attachment=3463:attachment]
Pretty confusing. Is this the way Macs have always behaved? Is this intended on the part of the engineers who designed it?
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Pretty confusing. Is this the way Macs have always behaved? Is this intended on the part of the engineers who designed it?
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Eric,
There was a whole other discussion of this issue in another thread in this Forum - I don't have the link on hand, but if you do a search you'll find it. There was much back and forth between Jeff Schewe, me and some others. The up-shot is that what's there is not a "bug" - it was all intentional, and some of the problem - the centering issue in particular, occurs because of design requirements for Windows Vista, different from XP.
While all that is no doubt valid, they didn't convince me it isn't a mess regardless. Nor did they convince "Jani" who observed very astutely that the print interface should have been designed to be configurable. The logic behind this suggestion is that the useability problems in CS3 differ depending on which version of the Epson driver you use and which OS you use. Therefore as long as many people are still using several Epson driver versions and either XP or Vista, it would help to have several configurations of the print interface. For my workflow, I aolved it all by keeping CS2 installed and I print from CS2 with Windows XP and Epson driver version 5.51. All works like a charm. But that's my solution for my set-up. It will differ for others with different combinations of hardware and software. Can drive one crazy.
Mark
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Eric,
There was a whole other discussion of this issue in another thread in this Forum - I don't have the link on hand, but if you do a search you'll find it. There was much back and forth between Jeff Schewe, me and some others. The up-shot is that what's there is not a "bug" - it was all intentional, and some of the problem - the centering issue in particular, occurs because of design requirements for Windows Vista, different from XP.
While all that is no doubt valid, they didn't convince me it isn't a mess regardless. Nor did they convince "Jani" who observed very astutely that the print interface should have been designed to be configurable. The logic behind this suggestion is that the useability problems in CS3 differ depending on which version of the Epson driver you use and which OS you use. Therefore as long as many people are still using several Epson driver versions and either XP or Vista, it would help to have several configurations of the print interface. For my workflow, I aolved it all by keeping CS2 installed and I print from CS2 with Windows XP and Epson driver version 5.51. All works like a charm. But that's my solution for my set-up. It will differ for others with different combinations of hardware and software. Can drive one crazy.
Mark
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Mark,
I had read all of that other thread well before daring to upgrade to CS3. From the thread I was expecting to have to re-select my Epson for each new document I wanted to print, and I was willing to do so since that was the way God had designed Mac software.
Inconvenient, I thought, but no big deal, just a nuisance having to select the right printer for each and every new document. And as for the margins, I do most of my PS printing from either ImagePrint or QTR, so I wasn't worried there either. Plus, I have Qimage for emergencies, and I have kept my CS2 just in case I needed it (I am always skeptical of any new version of any software).
But I don't think even Jeff would claim that it was Adobe's intention to display the incorrect printer in the printer box (look closely at my screen shot: the selected printer in the rear window is my Epson, but the actual printer chosen in the smaller window (upper left corner) is my default HP.) (This is a straight screen shot, not a couple of images combined in PS.)
Even this bug --- and it is a bug, and apparently Adobe's rather than Epson's, since it is in Adobe's printer selection box --- isn't a killer, since there is a work-around: Select any different printer, and then select the Epson (or whatever one you want), and then the chosen printer really is the one that CS3 is looking at.
So, in spite of all of Jeff's protestations, I still say that printing in CS3 doesn't work quite right, at least in Windows XP, but the flaw is pretty minor. I certainly agree that it would be nice if Epson and Micro$oft got their acts together and made it possible for Adobe to allow centered printing.
Eric
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So, in spite of all of Jeff's protestations, I still say that printing in CS3 doesn't work quite right, at least in Windows XP, but the flaw is pretty minor. I certainly agree that it would be nice if Epson and Micro$oft got their acts together and made it possible for Adobe to allow centered printing.
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No, I never said there weren't bugs...I said the "concept" of defaulting to the system default printer is pretty much in line with Mac which also has defaut printers...and I said that Adobe's ability to slam margins to zero to force printers to their max margins (and thus make it easier to print centered) is also like the Mac (where you have to create a custm page size with equal margins to print centered). And the fact that Vista REQUIRED that change in behavior.
All said, there ARE things wrong (bugs) which will be addressed in a dot release in the near future. Partially because of the feedback of users.
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No, I never said there weren't bugs...I said the "concept" of defaulting to the system default printer is pretty much in line with Mac which also has defaut printers...and I said that Adobe's ability to slam margins to zero to force printers to their max margins (and thus make it easier to print centered) is also like the Mac (where you have to create a custm page size with equal margins to print centered). And the fact that Vista REQUIRED that change in behavior.
All said, there ARE things wrong (bugs) which will be addressed in a dot release in the near future. Partially because of the feedback of users.
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Quite right, Jeff.
I didn't mean to suggest that you said CS3 was totally bug-free. You were quite careful to address specifically the issues of the margins and of the default printer, and I understand Adobe's decisions even if I find them a bit inconvenient.
I was just surprised to encounter this little bug, but if it is the worst that CS3 throws at me, I'll be very happy indeed.
And let me again say what a treat the Camera-to-Print tutorial has been.
-Eric