Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: E_Edwards on June 05, 2007, 05:41:32 pm
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Has anyone had a chance to seriously compare the Live Video on the Phase cameras as against the Live Video on Leaf cameras?
Live Video for me, as a still-life shooter using view cameras, is one of the most important features to consider when purchasing.
Last year, the Leaf Live Video was the best in my humble opinion, so I went for Leaf, but then Phase came up with Live Video and I haven't seen it.
All else being equal, I would go for any system whose Live Video is better than the others.
By better I mean sharper, life-like and easier to focus on detail, more frames per second, better operation with normal modelling lights, facility to overlay and capture video, good scrolling or navigation, etc.
Let's face it, they are all dire, as primitive as they come, have things improved after years and years of digital backs? Is the Phase Live Video still in its infancy, as in... prehistoric, or should I take a look?
Many thanks.
Edward
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Edward,
Take a look at this PDF from the Phase One web site:
http://www.phaseone.com/upload/livepreview_print.pdf (http://www.phaseone.com/upload/livepreview_print.pdf)
It will highlight some of the features it has and detail how to use it.
I would still suggest getting a P+ back and seeing it first hand, but
at least this will give you an idea of what to expect.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
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Thank you Chris,
I have seen this pdf before. But technical pdfs are one thing and reality is another, so yes, as you rightly say, the only reliable method is to see it functioning by yourself.
That's why I am posting this post, to see if somebody here has already made actual comparisons and get some idea whether it is worth the major hassle of getting a rep in to check it out.
Getting a demo in your studio means losing about half a day of your short life looking at something that is probably not going to be any better. As for actually going to a shop to see it, another major hassle here in London.
But it would all be worth it if somebody here who has actually seen both Live Views were to tell me, yes, the Phase Live Video is extraordinary, you must see it, or something to that effect.
Of course reps who demo both systems know only too well, but they can't be seen to be viased on a public forum, so you get the standard, if fair, non-commital response.
There must be some user seeing this post who actually has seen both Live Views at work. Or is there?
Edward
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I am just in the process of buying an new Digiback. So far I had the reps for Phase One and Leaf in my Studio. Both live videos were equally bad. Actually, the Phase One (a converted 45) seemed even worse, but maybe only because it was the first and I was so dissapointed. According to the rep the + backs do not do better with the live video than the converted backs.
Under controlled studio situation it can be used, however it still takes patience and slow movements to focus. Outside you have to use an almost bulletproof grey filter, it's just to much light.
While in my studio the Leaf rep tested the new 11 software the first time. After that his Live Dongle did not work any more. They seem to have quite a few hardware problems, it also took a while to get the 903 SWC working with the back (that will be a great snapshot camera!).
I don't know how much influence the computer hardware has, I tested both systems with the Mac Book Pro of the reps and don't know which ones they were.
Tomorrow the Sinar rep will be here, I'm ancius to see how that system will work. I am quite sure that the best live video will be optained with Sinars LC Shutter in front of the lens, however, that's to much of a hassle for me.
I will post my experience with the Sinarback soon.
greetings
gunter
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Just curious,
On Phase, have you used the Mac or PC version?
(PC version is even worst than Mac...)
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Sorry, I didn't notice you already wrote that you used a MacBook Pro.
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Thank you Gunter.
Under controlled lighting (very dimmed modelling lights) I can get an acceptable Live Video image with the Leaf. But it is not very good with contrasty situations, for instance, a single object on a white background (as in a packshot), or an object on a black background. However, with a subject that takes up a good proportion of the screen, providing that the subject has some variation in tonality, the Video works quite well.
Having said that, it is far better than the Hass camera I used to have, maybe Hass Live Video has improved considerably since last year.
The Sinar LCD sounds good, but I once saw the actual shutter thing and it's heavy and cumbersome, completely impractical, though I'm told the image is good. I wish they could come up with a neat solution, then I would consider the Sinar too.
Please let us know what you find, as having a good Live Video is very important for still-life studio work on a view camera.
Edward
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I have used the Sinar and its live video extensively. Actually I found there live video better with the earlier 23 back, which did not require the LC shutter, and which took the earlier version of captureshot software (think it was V4). With the newer software and LC shutter focussing is more difficult and fiddly!
Nick
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I have used the Sinar and its live video extensively. With the newer software and LC shutter focussing is more difficult and fiddly!
Nick
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121474\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, it's a shame that manufacturers don't seem to be developing the Live Video at the rate that we (still-life users) would like. I think it's not a priority for them. One gets the feeling that their priority is to sell cameras to people shooters, thus the steady developements in shooting speed, higher ISO and so on. I bet that only a tiny proportion of digital users reading this website actually use Live Video.
Edward
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Yes, it's a shame that manufacturers don't seem to be developing the Live Video at the rate that we (still-life users) would like. I think it's not a priority for them. One gets the feeling that their priority is to sell cameras to people shooters, thus the steady developements in shooting speed, higher ISO and so on. I bet that only a tiny proportion of digital users reading this website actually use Live Video.
Edward
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You have to bear in mind that these are not video cameras. They produce (sort of) Live Video, and it's challenging. Some issues, by example the light flare, simply can't be improved upon without additional enhancments like the Sinar LC Shutter.
That said, the Leaf Aptus S digital backs will actually produce a faster frame rate in the Live Video than the current Aptus (or Valeo) models, because of the increased data read-out. So, in this case, faster shooting speed was able to have a benefit in the Live Video as well.
Steve Hendrix
PPR
www.ppratlanta.com
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Edward,
You probably know what my answer would be as to "which one is better"....from my experience with all recent backs I can say that your conclusions from last year are as true now as they were true then.
LC11 moves the post a bit further now, with overlays, grid and dual monitor support, allowing you to set the "preview monitor" window on a second screeen at ANY size and do your composition and focusing on that one. This is pretty useful and VERY impressive when working with clients on set.
Yair
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LC11 moves the post a bit further now, with overlays, grid and dual monitor support, allowing you to set the "preview monitor" window on a second screeen at ANY size and do your composition and focusing on that one. This is pretty useful and VERY impressive when working with clients on set.
Yair
Phase's Live Preview already has all of these from version 1...
Still, when the clients look at, looks like a broadcasting from the Moon.
It is, in deed very emotional moment (for the clients) )
I'd still prefer less emotions but better looking.
Yair, what fps rate has Leaf "video"?
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It is, in deed very emotional moment (for the clients) )
I'd still prefer less emotions but better looking.
Yair, what fps rate has Leaf "video"?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121547\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Leaving great outbursts of emotion aside, Yair will no doubt know the exact frame rate, which I think varies depending on light exposure, magnification, etc.
But from a user's point of view, I find the Leaf's frame recycling perfectly adequate for the use it's intended.
In fact, it's pretty good, all considered, if only they could improve a little on the contrast sensitivity issue (which every back from any make with Live Video I've seen has) and the excess sensitivity to light, I would be really happy
Edward
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Still, when the clients look at, looks like a broadcasting from the Moon.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121547\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If that's the case with Phase, then I can say that the Leaf is probably better, the black and white picture that you get with the Leaf is quite good, provided you have the right contrast/tonality and the right light source intensity. I would still like to hear from a user who has actually seen/used both systems or more.
Edward
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Not sure if important, the preview from Phase is color, not black and white.
By "broadcast from the Moon" I mean that kind of contrast sensitivity with some horizontal pitch stripes interfered.
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Phase's Live Preview already has all of these from version 1...
Still, when the clients look at, looks like a broadcasting from the Moon.
It is, in deed very emotional moment (for the clients) )
I'd still prefer less emotions but better looking.
Yair, what fps rate has Leaf "video"?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121547\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Up to 6fps (and faster on the "S") so it is much quicker than anything else and in my book the only practical one for critical macro focus.
I agree that an LCD shutter can offer better quality, but the trade off is a bunch of cables, adapter etc.(been there, done that).
No ther software offers 100% detail set as full screen on a 30" monitor at 6 fps, NONE!
Yair
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I'm wondering, does Phase also charge a couple thousands extra for this feature ?
I find this sort of business practice very off-putting, given the quality of life preview, even though I'm happy with my Aptus 75 .
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I'm wondering, does Phase also charge a couple thousands extra for this feature ?
I find this sort of business practice very off-putting, given the quality of life preview, even though I'm happy with my Aptus 75 .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is a price difference between the Phase + backs and the non + backs.
But Leaf also charges for the dongle that allows live video to their backs, although they have included the live video dongle for free during various promotions over the years.
Sinar backs have had live video included for the state price since there is only one model available. I am sure however the arguement can be made that you are paying an increased price for that feature as well. Every feature is going to have a cost to it ......
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There is a price difference between the Phase + backs and the non + backs.
But Leaf also charges for the dongle that allows live video to their backs, although they have included the live video dongle for free during various promotions over the years.
Sinar backs have had live video included for the state price since there is only one model available. I am sure however the arguement can be made that you are paying an increased price for that feature as well. Every feature is going to have a cost to it ......
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121784\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Matt is right, some of the added features and functionalities offered are well worth the extra cost.
The Live Video Dongle is offered bundled with a purchase of a new Leaf back, along with a Graflok adapter plate for 4X5, at much less than the stated $2,000.
Yair
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Matt is right, some of the added features and functionalities offered are well worth the extra cost.
The Live Video Dongle is offered bundled with a purchase of a new Leaf back, along with a Graflok adapter plate for 4X5, at much less than the stated $2,000.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, this offer has certainly not been made to me, when I purchased my new back in December 2006, but that's not my question.
My question was, does Phase charge extra for the life video, like Leaf does for the Dongle, or not ?
The feature is available in both offerings, do both companies charge for using it ?
I tried it for my Aptus 75 a few months back, and I'm sure we all can agree on the very poor quality and lack of usability in many situations, hence it still amazes me that Leaf wants to be paid such an amount of money to have life video unlocked.
Phase has new '+' backs, Leaf the new 's' backs, that I am aware of, and those package deals are not my point, either. Every back comes with a package deal.
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Phase Plus has live video standard.
Non plus backs may be upgraded (hardware?) for live video at 2-3000E, or you may upgrade to plus version for 3-4000E.
I'm not a Phase dealer. I'm just a user.
Maybe we can get a more precise answer from a dealer.