Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: uaiomex on May 10, 2007, 12:24:53 am
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I found out that the popular HR digital lenses have only 70mm at f8 (optimal aperture). These lenses only allows 6mm of shift with the very popular 37X49mm digital sensors.
According to my book, 6mm shifts in this format for archicture photography is not enough. Even for product is very limited. Canon TS lenses have 11mm of shift either way. Well, 9mm to be safe.
Why such a small coverage?. I know they are optimized for smaller digital sensorr sizes, but 70mm circles only? - Come on!
Can someone tell me here if Phase One P25 back can be mounted vertically on a V camera? I've seen here a picture of a Leaf back that can be mounted both ways.
Thanks
Eduardo
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Hi Edurado,
ONLY the Rodenstock Digital HR 28mm & 35mm have an image circle of 70mm (stopped down 2 f-stops at Infinity).
The HR 60mm, 100mm, and 180mm have a bigger circle of 80mm.
The 28mm and the 35mm, although given only with a 4mm, respectively a 6mm shift range, can be shifted more, without any noticeable vignetting up to 10mm: the values given are pretty "conservative" and on the safe side.
Member "rehnniar" as made some interesting comparison tests with the Rodenstock 28mm, 35mm, 60mm, ... and I think he had made them available for anybody asking.
And FYI: a Sinarback can also be mounted vertically on a V camera.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Thierry
I found out that the popular HR digital lenses have only 70mm at f8 (optimal aperture). These lenses only allows 6mm of shift with the very popular 37X49mm digital sensors.
According to my book, 6mm shifts in this format for archicture photography is not enough. Even for product is very limited. Canon TS lenses have 11mm of shift either way. Well, 9mm to be safe.
Why such a small coverage?. I know they are optimized for smaller digital sensorr sizes, but 70mm circles only? - Come on!
Can someone tell me here if Phase One P25 back can be mounted vertically on a V camera? I've seen here a picture of a Leaf back that can be mounted both ways.
Thanks
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116717\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks Thierry.
Which would be the best site to learn about Sinar backs?
By the way, "very nice to meet you"
Best
Eduardo
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Hi Edurado,
ONLY the Rodenstock Digital HR 28mm & 35mm have an image circle of 70mm (stopped down 2 f-stops at Infinity).
The HR 60mm, 100mm, and 180mm have a bigger circle of 80mm.
The 28mm and the 35mm, although given only with a 4mm, respectively a 6mm shift range, can be shifted more, without any noticeable vignetting up to 10mm: the values given are pretty "conservative" and on the safe side.
Member "rehnniar" as made some interesting comparison tests with the Rodenstock 28mm, 35mm, 60mm, ... and I think he had made them available for anybody asking.
And FYI: a Sinarback can also be mounted vertically on a V camera.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116723\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Eduardo,
Nothing to thank and nice to meet you too!
It depends what you wish to learn.
I am here to answer any question, and if I don't have the answer I shall look for it from somebody else at Sinar.
A part from that, you can also go to www.sinarcameras.com: there you can download all available Sinarback brochures with the technical information and data (go to the link "Downloads" ---> "Brochures").
If you need more, you can ask me here.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thanks Thierry.
Which would be the best site to learn about Sinar backs?
By the way, "very nice to meet you"
Best
Eduardo
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[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116724\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I have a question Thierry, Any planes to have a software fix for lens falloff like the leaf custom gain utility?
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Can someone tell me here if Phase One P25 back can be mounted vertically on a V camera? I've seen here a picture of a Leaf back that can be mounted both ways.
Thanks
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116717\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, you can mount a P25 vertically on a V series Hasselblad. There are tabs built in the back for both horizontal as well as vertical orientation.
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Dear John,
Sinar has solved this issue together with the "Centerfold" issue since June last year: it is integrated in our software Captureshop.
Best regards,
Thierry
I have a question Thierry, Any planes to have a software fix for lens falloff like the leaf custom gain utility?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116732\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Yes the P-25 with V mount can be mounted either horizontal or vertical.
Can someone tell me here if Phase One P25 back can be mounted vertically on a V camera? I've seen here a picture of a Leaf back that can be mounted both ways.
Thanks
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116717\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
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Yes the P-25 with V mount can be mounted either horizontal or vertical.
Can someone tell me here if Phase One P25 back can be mounted vertically on a V camera? I've seen here a picture of a Leaf back that can be mounted both ways.
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Thanks all for your answers. Good news in the Phase One arena.
Concerning my question in my original post abot the too-small circle in the HR 35mm Rodenstock glass, I found there is a non-HR digital Sinaron with a 110mm image circle. That is an image circle for the 37X49 sensor!
I'm sure the HR version has an edge over the non-HR. But the price is right (1,300 usd at Calumet)
And it is a digital lens, and it is a Rodenstock.
Does anyone here shoots with this lens or combo?
Impressions?
Thanks
Eduardo
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I have one of the 35mm Rodenstock Digital non HR view lens. it is very sharp, Although my Hasselblad 120 Makro is better. It covers well too. I have not tried the Rodenstock 120 but I am thinking of getting one eventually, I use a flex adapter so I like to have enough coverage if I want to stitch images together.
I'm sure the HR version has an edge over the non-HR. But the price is right (1,300 usd at Calumet)
And it is a digital lens, and it is a Rodenstock.
Does anyone here shoots with this lens or combo?
Impressions?
Thanks
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116808\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
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Thanks David.
It's good to hear the non-hr 35 is very sharp. I have a 45mm Apo-Grandagon that I use with an A12 magazine and it excels in resolution, better than my Zeiss 50mm. On behalf of the 120 Makro being sharper, perhaps it is not a fair comparison, cause generally lenses on the tele side are sharper than those in the wideangle side. Do you have a Hasselblad 40mm or 50mm or better yet a SWC w/38mm to compare to the Rodenstock non-HR 35mm Rod?
Thx.
Eduardo
I have one of the 35mm Rodenstock Digital non HR view lens. it is very sharp, Although my Hasselblad 120 Makro is better. It covers well too. I have not tried the Rodenstock 120 but I am thinking of getting one eventually, I use a flex adapter so I like to have enough coverage if I want to stitch images together.
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i used the 35 digital ( non hr ) as well as the 35 hr lense, which i still use.
the 35mm can be shifted without vignetting 12mm. i was not impressed with the non hr version,- as with the schneider 35xl also the image degrades fast if shifted more than 10mm. the hr stay sharp till the edgs even if the lens is not stopped down !!
its not an edge over the "normal" version, its a little world between them.
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ONLY the Rodenstock Digital HR 28mm & 35mm have an image circle of 70mm (stopped down 2 f-stops at Infinity).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116723\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This image circle is larger than that of the Canon TS-E lenses, yet the quality seems to be much better from accounts I've read. The focal lengths are a bit different, 28mm & 35mm as opposed to 24MM and 45mm for the Canon, but I wonder, why the heck are Canon not employing the best lens designers?? Rodenstock have shown that it's technologically possible. Is there some other issue, like mirror clearance, which presents an insurmountable obstacle?
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yes so it is. its much more difficult if not impossble to make a real retrofocus lens as the canon in the same quality than more symmetric constructions ( also still retrofocus also ) than the rodenstock. also canons price point is another.....
the rodenstock 28 on a 33/39 pixel sensor equals a 21mm on 35m systems, the 35 a 26mm.
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yes so it is. its much more difficult if not impossble to make a real retrofocus lens as the canon in the same quality than more symmetric constructions ( also still retrofocus also ) than the rodenstock. also canons price point is another.....
the rodenstock 28 on a 33/39 pixel sensor equals a 21mm on 35m systems, the 35 a 26mm.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hmm! If DSLRs were to remove the mirror entirley and rely upon LCD viewfinders, as in P&S cameras, would high quality wide-angles then be possible, do you think?
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Hmm! If DSLRs were to remove the mirror entirley and rely upon LCD viewfinders, as in P&S cameras, would high quality wide-angles then be possible, do you think?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116919\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is what Alpa and others have been doing for years.
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yes they would be possible than. but i think too little market for them.
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yes they would be possible than. but i think too little market for them.
Possibly,but there have been a boatload of people,in the last 2-3 years wiling to pay
from$3000-$4000 for various used and new Zeiss and Leica 19 and 21mm lenses to use
on the 1Ds platform.
Employing a non-moving pellicle mirror,as has been used on a few previous Canon film bodies,
might make the option a little more viable than using an LCD.
As a bonus the would probably be able to seal the sensor area for better dust control.
Mark
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Thanks Rehnniar.
As always, you cant't have the cake and eat it too.
It is either movements with good quality or no movements with superb quality. (with 37X49mm sensors)
Eduardo
i used the 35 digital ( non hr ) as well as the 35 hr lense, which i still use.
the 35mm can be shifted without vignetting 12mm. i was not impressed with the non hr version,- as with the schneider 35xl also the image degrades fast if shifted more than 10mm. the hr stay sharp till the edgs even if the lens is not stopped down !!
its not an edge over the "normal" version, its a little world between them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116874\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Eduardo,
IMO, it is superb quality with movements: one has only to go to rehnniar's homepage to be convinced about this:
www.tangential.de
Thierry
Thanks Rehnniar.
As always, you cant't have the cake and eat it too.
It is either movements with good quality or no movements with superb quality. (with 37X49mm sensors)
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117023\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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for those interested in the Rodenstock Digital lenses:
here 2 attachments with all relevant technical data for those lenses, from the 28mm to the 210mm HR (High-Res) or non-HR Sinaron digital (they are the same).
[attachment=2477:attachment]
[attachment=2478:attachment]
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for those interested in the Rodenstock Digital lenses:
here 2 attachments with all relevant technical data for those lenses, from the 28mm to the 210mm HR (High-Res) or non-HR Sinaron digital (they are the same).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117095\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
Resolution of at least 60 lp/mm over a relatively large field is indeed impressive. That's 120 line widths/mm, which sounds more impressive. Do you have MTF graphs for these lenses?
Bill
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Merci Thierry for the link.
HEY REINAR
Is picture bkk-122.jpg in the airport series taken with a 37X49mm sensor and a HR Digitar 35mm Rodenstock? If yes, did you accomplish those verticals completely in camera using lens shift or you used in whole or in part Photoshop to get those verticals "plumbed"?
Thanks
Eduardo
Eduardo,
IMO, it is superb quality with movements: one has only to go to rehnniar's homepage to be convinced about this:
http://www.tangential.de/suvarnabhumi/ (http://www.tangential.de/suvarnabhumi/)
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117060\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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it was taken with the 28HR and was shifted in camera not in photoshop...
Merci Thierry for the link.
HEY REINAR
Is picture bkk-122.jpg in the airport series taken with a 37X49mm sensor and a HR Digitar 35mm Rodenstock? If yes, did you accomplish those verticals completely in camera using lens shift or you used in whole or in part Photoshop to get those verticals "plumbed"?
Thanks
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117163\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Resolution of at least 60 lp/mm over a relatively large field is indeed impressive. That's 120 line widths/mm, which sounds more impressive. Do you have MTF graphs for these lenses?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117109\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bill,
I think I've seen MTF graphs. I'm not sure whether for Sinar Digitar or Rodenstock.
70% MTF at 60 lp/mm seems even more hype than the claims for Sigma/Foveon resolution. I've also come across reports of these lenses being adapted for use with Canon DSLRs. For some unexplained reason the results seem to be rather underwhelming.
Not sure what's going on here. This is a subject which in my view needs a thorough airing with proper tests and comparisons.
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Dear Bill,
unfortunately, I do not have have MTF curves. But I guess that they should be available from Rodenstock.
I will check.
Thierry
Thierry,
Resolution of at least 60 lp/mm over a relatively large field is indeed impressive. That's 120 line widths/mm, which sounds more impressive. Do you have MTF graphs for these lenses?
Bill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117109\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Ray,
the Sinaron Digital (HR or non-HR) are the same as the Rodenstock.
There are tests which have been made and published by some here on this site (rehnniar and others).
Thierry
edited for addendum: be sure that the values (resolution, shift range, ...) published by Sinar are in no way "hypes". They are even relatively "conservative" values, as well for the resolution as for the shift range: it is indicated that these values are the minimum ("at least").
Thierry
Bill,
I think I've seen MTF graphs. I'm not sure whether for Sinar Digitar or Rodenstock.
70% MTF at 60 lp/mm seems even more hype than the claims for Sigma/Foveon resolution. I've also come across reports of these lenses being adapted for use with Canon DSLRs. For some unexplained reason the results seem to be rather underwhelming.
Not sure what's going on here. This is a subject which in my view needs a thorough airing with proper tests and comparisons.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117195\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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... and I've forgot to mention: those resolution values are given "at the edge" of the image circle of the respective lens. Obviously, in the centre it is higher.
Thierry
70% MTF at 60 lp/mm seems even more hype than the claims for Sigma/Foveon resolution.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117195\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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... and I've forgot to mention: those resolution values are given "at the edge" of the image circle of the respective lens. Obviously, in the centre it is higher.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=117236\")
Not quite, Thiery . I thought I'd seen MTF charts for the Schneider Digitar lenses, but I got it the wrong way round. It was a PDF file from Rodenstock at
[a href=\"http://www.phootos.com/Library/rodenstock_taking_lenses_digital.pdf]http://www.phootos.com/Library/rodenstock_...ses_digital.pdf[/url]
I'm particularly impressed with the response for the Sironar digital HR 100/f4 at 60 lp/mm. The wider angles are not quite as impressive though.
[attachment=2489:attachment]
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Thanks for the link, Ray!
Yes, the 100 HR is a fantastic lens. However, even if the wider lenses do not impress with their numbers, they are sharp until the edge fully open (28 HR and 35 HR).
Thierry
I'm particularly impressed with the response for the Sironar digital HR 100/f4 at 60 lp/mm. The wider angles are not quite as impressive though.
[attachment=2489:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I'm particularly impressed with the response for the Sironar digital HR 100/f4 at 60 lp/mm. The wider angles are not quite as impressive though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ray,
Thanks for pointing out the MTF figures. We had discussed this before, but my memory had failed. The highest resolution on the graphs (60 lp/mm) is a good match to sensors on which the lens might be used (Nyquist = 73 lp/mm for the p45 back), unlike the Photodo MTF charts for your 35 mm format Canon lenses, where the maximum tested resolution is 40 lp/mm.
Bill