Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: marty m on April 28, 2007, 08:19:26 am
-
Revision on May 9:
THE PREMISE OF THIS THREAD HAS NOW BEEN SUPPORTED AND VINDICATED. SEE THE SEPARATE THREAD "Z3100 Rebate PS Version INCLUDED!!!!"
Skip over the endless debates in the middle of this thread about whether the rebate applies to the PS model. It does. Even though those who made that argument are still arguing the same point in other threads.
The bottom-line conclusion for consumers of HP products, and a disturbing conclusion for wholesalers, resellers and vendors of HP products who must commit financial resources and floor space to stock HP products:
DO NOT BUY ANY HP PRODUCTS IN THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, AND WAIT FOR THE PRICE TO DROP. THOSE WHO BUY IN THE FIRST 60 DAYS WILL BE SCREWED AND LOSE $800 BASED ON THE EXAMPLE OF THE 3100
****************
Anyone who purchased a separate Z3100 in the last three months was ripped off and cheated by HP. If you were a big enough sucker to buy the Z3100 and the APS separately, you were ripped off and cheated twice over. Read on . . .
Several postings on the the other thread on the Advanced Profiling Solution (APS) for the HP Z3100 are reporting that a new model has been released -- the Z3100PS. The pricing is very aggressive, so that you can now buy a Z3100 along with both the RIP and the APS for the price previously paid for a Z3100 alone.
I am posting this new thread to underscore that those of us who purchased a Z3100 less than two months ago were ripped off and cheated by HP.
I searched the HP web site for a reference to the APS. It was previously posted as a separate item selling for about $800.
Guess what? It is no longer listed.
That's how HP has reacted to the severe criticism on this forum that the APS was significantly overpriced. The other criticism made of the APS is that it should have been included with the printer from the very start and not cost an additional $800.
Well, that is exactly what they have done. HP has decided to sell a new model with the APS and RIP included. Some postings have pointed out that HP has higher list price (about $1000 more) for the new PS model on their own web site.
So what? That is the manufacturer's suggested list price. It is common for discounters and everyone else to sell for 25% less than that. Since many HP authorized resellers are selling the PS model for $3900 to $4000, it is clear that HP has aggressively priced the new PS model at the wholesale level, allowing retail dealers to sell the new PS model for the price of the previously separate Z3100 model.
The separate APS? It is clearly a thing of the past. Gone. No longer listed anywhere on the HP web site, at least not that I could find. The APS was previously listed as an accessory for the Z3100 -- and it was included in all lists of accessories on the web sites. It is gone and no longer listed at all. It is now included in the printer.
So if you paid roughly $4000 to $4200 for the separate Z3100, you missed out on the APS. You could have received both for the same price.
You're the suckers stuck with the appropriately named Easy Software. I want you all to enjoy knowing that you missed out on the more advanced APS profiling system. If that makes you angry -- as it should -- protest to HP.
If you paid roughly $4800 to $5000 for the Z3100 and the APS you paid $800 too much in order to obtain the APS.
The obvious rebuttal to the above is that prices always drop after the release of a product. Early adapters always pay a higher price. Prices always drop later.
But can anyone recall such a significant drop in the price for such an expensive product and in less than two months?
HP is clearly reading this forum. But their solution has been to significantly drop the price of the printer -- and eliminate the separate APS all together -- so that the APS is, in fact, now included as part of the printer.
Yes, HP responded to the criticism on this forum.
But in the process they cheated every early adapter who bought the Z3100 when it was first released. That is the delicious and profound irony. We posted our comments. HP responded. And we all lost $800 as a result.
More importantly, HP cheated every one of you who were loyal early customers, and reported on the many early problems with the Z3100 and APS.
Those of you who spent hundreds of hours testing and posting on Z3100 problems, and working with the staff in Spain, it is all of who have been mistreated to the greatest extent. (Unless HP already gave you the APS for free.)
Those of us who bought either the printer or the printer and the APS just lost $800 in the process.
There is a sucker born every minute. Unfortunately, EVERYONE on this forum who bought the Z3100 and/or the APS qualifies in that category.
************
A later addition, resulting from points made further down in this thread:
(1) The early adopter argument does not apply. The first units, such as BluRay, always cost more, and the second generation units cost less. But first generation units are not cut by $800 in the first 60 days, thereby screwing everyone who bought the first units. Because if that was the norm, it inevitably leads to the next conclusion:
(2) There is a clear warning and lesson for all us. Namely:
DO NOT BUY ANY HP PRODUCTS IN THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, AND WAIT FOR THE PRICE TO DROP.
HP will be really popular with retailers and wholesalers if consumers come to that conclusion, and millions of dollars of inventory sit in warehouses for the first three or four months, and nothing is sold.
But that is the only and most obvious conclusion to how HP has treated us. Again, based on the fact that a large number of retailers are selling the printer and APS in a package for the previous price of the printer alone. And based on the fact that the APS has disappeared from the HP web pages as a recommended accessory.
-
I searched the HP web site for a reference to the APS. It was previously posted as a separate item selling for about $800.
Guess what? It is no longer listed.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=114696\")
[a href=\"http://h30267.www3.hp.com/country/us/en/products/large_format/Z2100/solutions/advanced_profiling_solution.html]HP APS[/url]
I can't find it for sale anywhere on the HP site(s) but I can't say why. Have you seen any announcement from HP that its been withdrawn or now included with the Z? If so, please share that info.
-
HP APS (http://h30267.www3.hp.com/country/us/en/products/large_format/Z2100/solutions/advanced_profiling_solution.html)
I can't find it for sale anywhere on the HP site(s) but I can't say why. Have you seen any announcement from HP that its been withdrawn or now included with the Z? If so, please share that info.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114700\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
See the above posting.
Fact: The Z3100 with APS included is now widely listed for sale by retailers for the original price of the Z3100 without the APS
Fact: Those who bought the separate Z3100 only one or two months ago could have bought it for the same price with the APS included had they waited until now.
In other words, if HP had received ZERO sales and ZERO market share in the first two months, and if we had all waited until now to buy the printer, then we would have all been treated equally by HP.
Fact: The APS as a separate accessory was widely listed on the various web pages of HP. Now it appears to be completely gone.
Those who bought the APS separately were cheated out of every dollar they paid for the APS since had they waited only 30 to 60 days, they wouldn't even need to buy the APS separately
If you want to an official explanation, call HP. Not that it will do you any good.
HP won't admit that they ripped off and cheated every one of their early and loyal customers.
This is a worse record -- a significantly worse record -- than Canon or any other retailer. To do this to us only 30 to 60 days after the Z3100 went on sale is unpardonable and constitutes the worst form of retail behavior.
-
Anyone who purchased a separate Z3100 in the last three months was ripped off and cheated by HP.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114696\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So Marty, tell us who you are. You clearly sound upset, but so are all HP's competitors in the large format printer race.
Cordially,
Fred Ragland
-
So Marty, tell us who you are. You clearly sound upset, but so are all HP's competitors in the large format printer race.
Cordially,
Fred Ragland
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114703\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And why shouldn't I sound upset? Fred, I assume you didn't buy the Z3100 or APS for the previous prices or you'd be upset as well. Unless, of course, you just have money to burn.
I am employed in an unrelated field and for an entirely unrelated type of business. I am not associated with, employed for or have any relationship with photography, graphic arts, printing, computers, computer hardware, software or any field remotely related to HP. My comments are my own, as a consumer, and have no connection or relationship with my employer. I bought the Z3100 for my own private use as a consumer.
So, Fred, what line of work are you in, since by inference you are defending HP?
Fred, instead of pointing at me, maybe you should comment on HP's record of conduct with those who bought their printer upon its release in the first two months. I am not the issue.
The issue is HP.
-
If there's no longer a plain-jane z3100 product on offer and you can only get a z3100 with APS and/or some other bit of software, then the only sensible thing for HP to do is to upgrade us early-bird purchasers. AFAIK all it would take would be a software download. Wouldn't cost them a dime other than bandwidth, and would certainly reap plenty of goodwill.
Marty, you bring up good points. I don't understand all the facts yet as it seems HP is doing some product transitioning (hell, the z3100 wasn't even listed on the Canada site when I bought). Perhaps when the dust settles we'll have some clarity.
-
I've got my Z3100 24" this week, 4 days ago, and I have still to setup and install the printer, which was actually scheduled for the weekend.
In Germany on the HP website the DJ Z3100 610 mm (Q5669A) is listed with 5662,50 Euro and the DJ Z3100 GP 610 mm (Q5669B) with APS is listed with 5568 Euro.
Perhaps it's possible to "downgrade" from the more expensive Q5669A without APS to the cheaper Q5669B with APS. Let's wait what HP Germany will answer next week.
But I have to admit, that I feel a bit, hmm, bamboozled...
-
If there's no longer a plain-jane z3100 product on offer and you can only get a z3100 with APS and/or some other bit of software, then the only sensible thing for HP to do is to upgrade us early-bird purchasers. AFAIK all it would take would be a software download. Wouldn't cost them a dime other than bandwidth, and would certainly reap plenty of goodwill.
Marty, you bring up good points. I don't understand all the facts yet as it seems HP is doing some product transitioning (hell, the z3100 wasn't even listed on the Canada site when I bought). Perhaps when the dust settles we'll have some clarity.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Your solution would take care of those who did NOT buy the APS separately. The only solution for those who DID buy the APS is to offer us a coupon or rebate either for cash or for the equivalent dollar amount for HP paper and ink. Or let us allow return the APS, regardless of the date of the purchase, and then download it for free as Sean suggests.
-
Marty,
APS is still listed on HP's site for $799.
Search for product #Q6695A
Jim
-
Some maxims come to mind:
1. You pays your money, you takes your chances;
2. Prices and features subject to change without notice;
3. Avoid the bleeding edge of change.
I can understanding your being miffed, but it is not accurate to say that HP "cheated" or "ripped [you] off", unless they took your money and sent you a dead skunk in a box labeled "printer".
You presumably knew what you were buying, and at what price, and decided that the value HP offered justified the price you willingly paid, with no weapon pointed at your head at point of purchase.
Now they've responded to competitive pressures, obviously, and decided to bundle previously un-bundled products at an attractive price point. Happens all the time, and is one of the risks you take when you are first in line to buy a new product; it's happened to me. Sh-- happens in a market economy.
HP must have felt like whatever ill will this would generate among its customers would be offset by the advantages that would accrue to it from the change. Making your feelings known effectively--through your dealer up the supply chain comes to mind--may convince HP that its early adopters need some recompense, but they have no ethical obligation to provide it. They certainly did not rip you off or cheat you in any reasonable interpretation of those disparaging terms.
And no, I have no relationship to HP except as a generally satisfied past, and likely future, customer.
-
My current understanding is that the APS is not really necessary. Unless you need monitor calibration, and I already have that. Are you saying that the built in (not APS) z3100 profiling is not adequate? I hope this is not the case. I just ordered the non-APS 44" z3100.
-
Marty,
APS is still listed on HP's site for $799.
Search for product #Q6695A
Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I tried, and still didn't come up with it. But I'll take your word for it, that if you search high and low, it can still be found as an item for sale.
But my original point still stands, and was supported by other postings above.
Namely, that the APS was previously listed under supplies and accessories on all of the standard pages for the Z3100. It has been removed from ALL of those pages and no longer appears. What appears instead is the new printer model that includes the APS as part of the purchase price.
And that price, at the retail level, is the same price that many of us paid for the Z3100 without the APS.
-
My current understanding is that the APS is not really necessary. Unless you need monitor calibration, and I already have that. Are you saying that the built in (not APS) z3100 profiling is not adequate? I hope this is not the case. I just ordered the non-APS 44" z3100.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114729\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
See my other postings on the APS. There is clearly a difference between the Easy software and the APS. Whether it is a minor or a huge difference is a qualitative judgment. But there is a difference. That difference has been seen and substantiated by most of those who own the APS.
Otherwise, why would we be calling for HP to fix the software to allow for profiles on media smaller than 24"? If the APS makes no difference, none of us would care.
You should cancel your order and buy one of the new models that includes the APS for the same price. It seems a little foolish to go ahead and buy a 44" printer without the APS when you can now buy one with APS. (I didn't check the prices and specs for the 44" model carefully, as I was looking at the 24" model. But I think the same arguments that prompted my original posting in this thread apply to both.)
We were all cheated by HP in the last two months. It is your decision as to whether you want to join us.
The one difference is that we didn't know better or that HP would, less than 60 days from when we bought the first models to be released, release a new model with the APS included for the same price.
We didn't know that.
You do.
-
Sounds more like they honestly ripped you off; I don't hear any dishonesty here. The same could be said for the iPF5000 purchasers who paid full price, only to see the printer greatly discounted a short time later. I would be upset too, but I don't see anything unethical about the behavior of HP. It certainly does arouse a sense of unfairness, which companies usually try to avoid doing, but competitive pressures may not always make that possible. My $.02.
--John
-
We were all cheated by HP in the last two months.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114737\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not really. Words have meaning, and you're persistently misusing this one in your understandable ire.
Insisting you've been cheated overstates your case--which I'll bet would otherwise find a sympathetic ear at HP--and seems the least likely way to get what you're after.
-
Some maxims come to mind:
1. You pays your money, you takes your chances;
2. Prices and features subject to change without notice;
3. Avoid the bleeding edge of change.
Making your feelings known effectively--through your dealer up the supply chain comes to mind--may convince HP that its early adopters need some recompense, but they have no ethical obligation to provide it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114728\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Another maxim comes to mind: there is a sucker born every minute. And that is exactly how HP has treated us.
The best way to make our feelings known is in a public forum like this one. Let the public know and fully understand HP's record of standing behind its products in only the first 60 to 90 days of the release of those products.
Not in a call to dealer that would likely, with many dealers, be a complete waste of time. I'll call my dealer and ask that he include the APS since it is now part of the standard package at the same price that I paid. It will be interesting to use a stop watch and see how long it takes for him to stop laughing. Politely of course. In my case I am beyond the 30 day return period. The dealer has no legal obligation, and he knows it. Furthermore, my dealer had no idea that HP was making this change anymore than I did. Why should my dealer suffer or be the target of my anger when it is HP that misled both its own dealers and all of us?
There is only one obligation that matters -- and that is an obligation of basic fairness and ethical behavior by the manufacturer.
HP flunks on both counts. The way it has treated its earliest and most loyal customers is appalling.
As I said in my first posting, I can't immediately think of another manufacturer who has released a $4000 product, enticed early adapters to buy it and test it for them, go through enormous pains to get it to work properly, and then to cut the price and the conditions of sale in only the first 60 days. I agree that this might occur after 365 days. But not after only 60 days. That is the point that you failed to respond to. That HP did this only 60 to 90 days after releasing the product.
And for those of us who were completely misled and seduced to buy the APS as a separate product, well we were really misled and treated unethically.
Or as one of the other eloquent posters put it, bamboozled.
-
Sounds more like they honestly ripped you off. . . It certainly does arouse a sense of unfairness, which companies usually try to avoid doing, but competitive pressures may not always make that possible. My $.02.
--John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114738\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
John: I'll accept your correction to my choice of words. The one difference between you and other postings is that others are excusing HP all together.
You are correct in your assessment that HP "honestly ripped you off" and it "arouses a sense of unfairness."
Here is what is profoundly ironic. It is this forum, more than any other, that has brought significant pressure upon HP to improve the early identified failures of the Z3100 and the APS. And their decision to offer the APS with the printer at the same price is clearly a response to that precise criticism on this forum. Namely, that the APS was overpriced and should have been included with the printer all along.
Those who argue that we should instead contact HP directly or a dealer are incredibly naive. (That is not a point made by John, who maintains a public forum related to Canon, and fully understands the pressure brought to bear by forums like this one.) It is the public pressure from forums like this that are effective. And HP's change in the pricing, and dropping APS as a listed accessory for the printer, is a direct result from this forum.
So here is the delicious irony for all of us to ponder. HP did react to the criticism aimed at it in this forum. HP did decide to include the APS in the basic price of the printer.
In so doing -- in reacting in a positive way to our criticism -- they "honestly ripped us off" and have created a "sense of unfairness" with those early and loyal users who voiced those comments in this forum in the first place.
It is our very effectiveness -- our voicing these concerns in this forum more than any other forum or venue -- that led to this situation.
So HP reacted to our criticism, and in the process, shafted all of us. Now, will HP react again and fix this, as was suggested by Sean in an above posting?
-
Well I got my Z3100 44" but I didn't get the APS.
Will be great to have it free now I feel like Marty.
I can't beleave the HP go so low in price, it make you think if you should wait couple months and see when anything come out.
That it's really a very bad business, and HP should think about, because next time everyone will wait and see what can happen in couple more months.
I like to have the APS Free HP please send it to me and return others people money.
I'm with you Marty .
BlasR
-
Don't we have to expect this with technology these days? that and they never work as well as they should!
I take this outlook, when i buy some technology is it worth to me the price being asked, if yes then it doesn't matter what price it ends up. Shure you don't want to pay more, but if you consider it's worth X then it's always worth X amount. After you bought why keep checking the price.
Kevin.
-
Kevin,
You don't need to check price, but if you got X for $6200.00 today and X will be $ 5000.00 tomorrow, why in the hell you spend the extra in the first place. That is bad business, I know everything come down, but not few months later, if will be like that, them you want to wait and save money.
I wish I can return the printer.
BlasR
-
So....As far as I can tell the APS is not being bundled with the base printer. As a reseller we also have not substantially dropped our prices, nor have other vendors. The 24" is still around $4100 and the 44" about $6200. The HP Z3100ps is a different item. It includes the APS as well as more memory and a built-in RIP for postscript and CAD printing. As far as your other complaints if your dissatified with the product you purchased I'm sorry to hear that. For what it is it's value will be appreciated by some more than others. Being able to use the Z3100's onboard spectro to generate profiles for other CMYK printers is a very valuable ability, and a lot cheaper than a DTP-70...granted it's a little less elegant. Over all I'm not sure about the value of the APS average consumer. If you dont own any sort of monitor calibration then it offers a good way to jump into a color managed workflow. Also the PS version is a newer product, and is still about a $1000 more than the base model.
I agree that if they start bundling the software portion of the APS free in future models then that is cause for a good deal of frustration. However at this point I don't see that as the case. I agree that it is odd that the APS dissapeared from a list of accesories. I will shoot off an email and see what the story is. However there's been no news as of yet to the dealers about the APS being bundled for free.
Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
-
I'm not sure I see the point of this rant. Is the built in spectro and profiling system inadequate?
I also don't see where HP is giving away the APS. From HP, the z3100 44" printer is $6,295. The APS bundle option is $7,495. That is a difference of $1,200. I didn't buy it because I don't think I need it. If HP's built in profiling system turns out to not work or be inadequate, I will spend the $1200 on an outside solution I can use with other printers, not just the z3100. But then again, I'm purchasing the z3100 so I don't have to use the other printers (i.e. cloggy epsons) anymore.
If I am able to build good quality profiles without APS, why would I want it?
I should have my printer next week or shortly thereafter.
Anyone dissatisfied with the profiling abilities of the z3100 (non APS) in real-world use?
-
... if you got X for $6200.00 today and X will be $ 5000.00 tomorrow, why in the hell you spend the extra in the first place. That is bad business, I know everything come down, but not few months later, if will be like that, them you want to wait and save money.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The price drop (etc) happening in just a few months is a reflection of the market, the length of the product life-cycle, etc...
If you adopt new products first, you usually pay higher prices to have them before everyone else. I remember when Motorola released a new cellular phone here in Oz, it was launched at $799 cash (street) price and a guy at work was showing his off around the office... 3 weeks later they were down to $250-ish...
Yes, those who bought early paid more for this printer than if it was bought now. The trade off is that they had the new technology first, and have enjoyed it's use for that time. So the question is, was it worth it?
-
BIG SNIP...So HP reacted to our criticism, and in the process, shafted all of us. Now, will HP react again and fix this, as was suggested by Sean in an above posting?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry, Marty, but what are you talking about?
1. HP normally introduces PostScript versions of its printers after the "regular" ones are out. I remember the same thing with the DJ5500. They don't discontinue the first one.
2. As of this very moment (on the HP site), the Z3100 44" "regular" lists for $6,295. The PS version is $7,495. The difference is $1,200. You get a PostScript RIP and APS for that. What's the problem?
3. Maybe they've pulled APS off the site because they're getting ready to release the new version. Who knows? I don't. And I consult for them (not about this stuff).
"dishonest" and "ripping off"??? Come on, Marty. You're passionate, I'll give you that, but this is flat-out name-calling, mixed in with a dose of hubris and hyperbole.
Harald Johnson
-
Hi folks
I reside in Canada . None of the US competitive prices and promotions exists here . Not for printers and nor for consumables . This is my experience here and how I feel about this topic :
Last winter I got Canon IPF5000 , and of course for higher price available for American users in the States at the same time. We Canadians envy this . I guess European users envy all of us even more , since they pay much more for the same product . Well it is how it works nowadays. But when I got the 5000 , there was worth of about $200 paper included for free even without my knowledge . When I asked about it , the nice reseller told me this is a new promotion from Canon . And since I just ordered it a few days before this promotion , they added it for free to my order as well. It was a very nice bonus and surprise. I need to give a plus to Canon for doing that.
Last week finally I found out Z3100 is really available and selling in Canada. (At the moment I'm typing this , still HP Canada site says z3100 COMING SOON !! and no price for any 3100 models yet !! I have sent two separate e-mails regarding this and no corrections yet. And 3100 models already are being sold here since march , as far as know!!)
Anyways Z-3100 - No APS- was ordered last week and will be delivered whenever I finish the preparations.
If I see after a short while the APS is included for the same price paid for the basic model in Canada , will not be happy. I will not call HP a cheater , Just won't be happy . It feels like you buy a car and after a few weeks price goes down . Well It is how the market works .
But if HP can add a free software to the customers who have already paid big bucks for the printer , Will be considered a smart and good customer service. It is what Canon did .
Regards - Avalan
-
Want some cheese with your whine?
-
Would be nice.
-
I agree that if they start bundling the software portion of the APS free in future models then that is cause for a good deal of frustration. However at this point I don't see that as the case. I agree that it is odd that the APS dissapeared from a list of accesories. I will shoot off an email and see what the story is. However there's been no news as of yet to the dealers about the APS being bundled for free.
Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114789\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You won't be selling very many Z3100s since that is precisely what is being offered by other authorized HP resellers. Specifically, a package deal, including the APS, for the original price of the separate Z3100 without the APS.
On the other hand, I appreciate the acknowledgment of the self-evident -- that HP removed the APS from dozens of web pages as a listed accessory. Not just one or two web pages. HP removed it across the board, on all of the redundant web pages for the Z3100. That is no accident. Of course, it is impossible to sell an accessory for an extravagant $800 that is now offered absolutely for free in the base price of the printer.
Responding to other posts, not Julian's --
I already responded to Roscolo above. I only, note, again, that the APS does result in superior profiles. Whether the difference matters to you is a qualitative and personal judgment. For many, the Easy software is fine. For others, with highly exacting standards, the APS matters. If you want the best possible results from the Z3100, then the APS makes a difference. This thread is discussing those who bought the Z3100 before this package deal was announced by retailers. For everyone else, including Roscolo, you know what your options are. It makes no sense to buy the printer alone, when you can now get it for the same price with the APS, but that is your choice to make.
Harald -- you know better than to base your argument on MSRP. You are quoting the manufacturers list prices off the HP web site. Other posters have cited at least half a dozen retailers selling the Z3100 and APS for the price of the Z3100 alone. And the APS has disappeared as a recommeded accessory. What more evidence do you want?
Harlad, did HP drop prices only 60 days after they introduced the DJ5500? I doubt it.
But if they did, it was wrong then, and it is wrong now.
Since HP doesn't post here, consumers are forced to come to self-evident and obvious conclusions. The prices now charged for the printer and APS, and the fact that the APS is no longer listed as an accessory, is pretty damning evidence. At least I acknowledge and report on the self-evident.
The defenders-of-HP-at-all-costs, and at this point the cost is at least $700-$800 (what you lost by not getting the printer and APS, or what you paid for a separate APS) still haven't justified how it is A-OK for HP to do this only 60 days after they started selling the units in large quantities, and after many on this web site spent hundreds of hours to fix the many problems that first plagued the Z3100 and the APS.
I note for the record that it was my posts that started with DO NOT BUY HP APS that rang the alarm bell on how incredibly dumb it was that the APS can only profile papers 24" in diameter. As a result of those public postings HP is now testing a new version that corrects those problems as confirmed in a separate thread on this site.
I was criticized for those postings as well, by those who argued then, and are arguing now, that you get what you pay for, so stop complaining. (Those who criticize me in that regard must be millionaires with money to burn.)
Please save all of us from those with the "buyer beware" attitude who defend manufacturers from absolutely anything, no matter how egregious it might be.
And this is pretty egregious.
Those in contact with Spain have reported -- on numerous occasions -- that the HP staff who designed the Z3100 are under considerable pressure to fix the problems and restore the reputation of HP. That is not a result of our thinking good thoughts, wasting our time by calling our dealers, or really wasting our time by calling some poorly trained customer service rep who hasn't even seen a Z3100.
No, that is a direct result of the postings on this site. Just as the new version of the APS is a result of many users of the APS agreeing with my original posting that they would not buy the APS until the problems are fixed.
If this impacts the reputation of HP -- as it should -- and impacts sales -- as it should -- HP will take notice.
-
Marty wrote :
"I only, note, again, that the APS does result in superior profiles. Whether the difference matters to you is a qualitative and personal judgment. For many, the Easy software is fine. For others, with highly exacting standards, the APS matters. If you want the best possible results from the Z3100, then the APS makes a difference. This thread is discussing those who bought the Z3100 before this package deal was announced by retailers. It makes no sense to buy the printer alone, when you can now get it for the same price with the APS, but that is your choice to make. "
Agree
Will contact the reseller on monday to see what are the deals in this part the world for APS.
Here in Canada everything is a different ball game.
-
Will contact the reseller on monday to see what are the deals in this part the world for APS.
Here in Canada everything is a different ball game.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And I will report from Germany about the APS next week.
-
Marty,
Welcome to the world of the early adopter. Buyers remorse is standard for any electronics or computer purchase. My last two mac computer purchases were upgraded to faster/better computers within the first month and the prices dropped by 20% as well. I bought the z3100 one week before the rebates came out and I bought the APS separately just a month ago. So I've paid the price and then some. Am I pissed? Yes, but I'm not surprised, I needed the printer at that time and it's already paid for itself.
HP is no different than any other electronics/computer maker. It's all about change, to hell with the consumer. Actually, change is demanded by us. We wanted a better product for the money (APS) and now they may give it to us for "free". The early adopters always pave the way for more affordable products for those who can wait. The rule of thumb is to wait for the 2nd generation (at least) of a new product or as long as you can before you need to purchase it. This is why I'm waiting till my CRT monitor is dead before I upgrade to an LCD monitor, prices keep on falling. Same goes for my tube tv.
- Doug
P.S. I hope you weren't one of the few "suckers" who bought the first blueray disc players at $5000. (or whatever outrageous price they were asking)
-
P.S. I hope you weren't one of the few "suckers" who bought the first blueray disc players at $5000. (or whatever outrageous price they were asking)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114816\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You at least have correctly pointed to the perils of being an early adopter -- and correctly made the point. Everyone else who has made that argument (of the perils of being an early adopter) in this thread has not summarized it correctly.
We all understand that the first units on the cutting edge cost substantially more. The next blu-ray player (second generation) was lower in price, and by the time you get to the third generation, the price really drops.
But Blu-Ray is a perfect example of the point I am making. NONE OF THOSE MANUFACTURERS DROPPED THE PRICE BY $800 IN THE FIRST 60 DAYS ON THE SAME IDENTICAL UNIT.
None of those manufacturers turned around and included an accessory in the first 60 days that previously cost $800 ON THE SAME IDENTICAL UNIT.
Absolutely everyone who is making the "early adopter" argument has it wrong. Early adopter first generation units always cost more. But rarely, if ever, do the prices drop by $800 within 60 days ON THE SAME IDENTICAL MODEL, thereby royally screwing those who bought the first units. The price drops when the NEXT model comes out -- when the SECOND generation is released. Or it drops many, many months later on the same model -- not in the first 60 days.
If all manufacturers behaved as HP apparently has, then units would simply sit on shelves collecting dust for the first two to four months, as we all wait for a price drop. That point was made by another poster above who now wishes he could return the printer, and only 60 days later buy the same printer with the APS included.
If we knew that HP would behave this irresponsibly, we would have all waited. And not a single Z3100 would have sold for the first two to four months.
The reason that manufacturers do NOT behave this irresponsibly is that they desperately need to recover costs and begin selling units once they hit the market. And retailers can't afford to invest in tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in inventory only to have it sit there, take precious floor space, and not sell.
The other point about early adopters is that they are the ones who help work out the kinks and report on the problems. We are the beta testers. That is absolutely right -- and that is another compelling reason that manufacturers do not screw their beta testers and early adopters by lowering the price by $800 in only the first 60 days.
As I previously stated, the way that HP has apparently treated us is appalling, and sets a new low for manufacturers.
Now that I have reacted to my critics, it occurs to me that there is a simple way to make my point, and I will add it to my first posting at the start of this thread:
There is a clear warning and lesson for all us. Namely:
DO NOT BUY ANY HP PRODUCTS IN THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, AND WAIT FOR THE PRICE TO DROP.
Julian, you sell their products. Is that the conclusion you want all of us to reach?
Harald, you consult for HP. Is that the conclusion you want all of us to take from this sorry debacle?
As for other countries, it may be that this new PS unit has hit the US market first.
-
Hi Marty,
Can you tell me where I can get the hp 3100 with the aps for the same price? I am finally about to buy one. My second question is this free in addition to the $1000 rebate or without it? I think their rebate goes until the end of May but I have not heard anything about getting the APS for the same price plus rebate.
Julian at Spectraflow is a straight up dealer and a nice guy - if he is saying that they are not doing it I am wondering who is. Please tell us.
Thanks,
Eric
-
Hi Marty,
Can you tell me where I can get the hp 3100 with the aps for the same price? I am finally about to buy one. My second question is this free in addition to the $1000 rebate or without it? I think their rebate goes until the end of May but I have not heard anything about getting the APS for the same price plus rebate.
Julian at Spectraflow is a straight up dealer and a nice guy - if he is saying that they are not doing it I am wondering who is. Please tell us.
Thanks,
Eric
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=114820\")
Check out the APS thread. There are six or eight retailers listed in that thread. If you do a google search I'm sure you can find even more.
In that same APS thread someone said they checked with HP and the rebate does apply to the new PS model. I haven't checked myself, as I already bought the printer and APS and already lost $800.
A later edit, here are the links as provided on the APS thread. I'm sure you can find plenty more by using google:
[a href=\"http://www.provantage.com/hewlett-packard-...cc~7HEWD0LU.htm]http://www.provantage.com/hewlett-packard-...cc~7HEWD0LU.htm[/url]
http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=1496596 (http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=1496596)
http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?357519_...MPAQ_Q5670A#BCC (http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?357519_...MPAQ_Q5670A#BCC)
http://www.pcnation.com/web/details.asp?item=M35744 (http://www.pcnation.com/web/details.asp?item=M35744)
-
I read the whole thread one more time . Not agree with Marty on all of his comments , but he has a strong and valid point for his discussion.
Last Wednesday the 3100-24" - no APS - was ordered . It cost me $4585 CAND plus taxes , total of $5181 CAND .
guess it is around $4560 USD . No $1000 or 300 paper rebate available ( which is available in the US , until end of May). So you can see how Canadian users may feel about it.
Well , I have accepted it for all products and these are the differences in the market for every item . But if you think I will be happy to see it was possible to get the 3100 plus APS for the same price if I was waiting a month more , you are wrong . Still will not call HP a cheater , but will be really unhappy.
This is the first HP printer I have ever bought . it is great printer, regardless of this APS deal .
Since I don't know how HP will respond , will wait and see .
Don't consider HP obligated for giving away the extra bonus for previous buyers. But will examine their response to who have already paid big bucks in last couple of months .
I have seen HP serious to pay attention to user demands . this will be another test.
will report back as soon as I hear from reseller . As mentioned , here is a different ball game.
Regards - Avalan
-
Kevin,
You don't need to check price, but if you got X for $6200.00 today and X will be $ 5000.00 tomorrow, why in the hell you spend the extra in the first place. That is bad business, I know everything come down, but not few months later, if will be like that, them you want to wait and save money.
I wish I can return the printer.
BlasR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you didn't think it was worth $6200. to you why did you buy it? You could buy it today at $5000. and tomorrow it will be $4000. Your only solution is not to buy anything new.
Kevin.
-
Oh PLZ STOPP IT.
Should I start crying because I had to pay 7000EUR which would be around 9500US compared to the 6500 list price here in Germany ?
I don't because it is a fact and if you want something than you pay. We could start talking about so many things, like the HP rebate or Canon rebate, OH I bought my lens a week ago and now I get 50EURs of, I was cheated. Sorry but that is nonsense. APS is expensive and it always was. If you think you need it buy it, if not don't.
-
Well my friend, I got it because I want it. in 1991 I got a rolex (Oyster Perpetual datejust) if you go in see it today still the same price.
What Marty, say is why to buy from hp today if in couple months will be $1000 less.
why no wait?. next time I will wait. a $1000 is a $1000. hp next time if will be next time, I will wait 5 months.
BlasR
If you didn't think it was worth $6200. to you why did you buy it? You could buy it today at $5000. and tomorrow it will be $4000. Your only solution is not to buy anything new.
Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114829\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Regarding the rebate, guess someone from HP can clear this up, but from HP's site it says:
"If you currently own a 17-44" wide color inkjet printer(s) and you purchase an HP Designjet Z2100 or Z3100 Photo Printer between February 1, 2007 and May 31, 2007, and you comply with the terms and conditions set forth below, you can receive Cash Back by mail of up to $1,000 depending on the new product you purchase"
I have a feeling that means what it says. If one buys a model z2100 or z3100, you can get the rebate. If you buy the model z3100ps GP, that printer will not be eligible for the rebate (different model). So in essence you are still paying about $900 - $1200 extra for the APS.
-
Regarding the rebate, guess someone from HP can clear this up, but from HP's site it says:
"If you currently own a 17-44" wide color inkjet printer(s) and you purchase an HP Designjet Z2100 or Z3100 Photo Printer between February 1, 2007 and May 31, 2007, and you comply with the terms and conditions set forth below, you can receive Cash Back by mail of up to $1,000 depending on the new product you purchase"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114845\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Can you provide a link to that? It's probably US purchasers only, but it's worth looking at anyway.
N.B. if you're looking for a Canadian reseller, I suggest you check your local university's "tech shop." I got my 44" z3100 from the University of Waterloo for $6994CDN+tax, which is about $6KUSD. Downside: I had to pick it up from their loading dock; rented a moving van to get it home. Of course, you don't get any support with this sort of purchase, but given that HP Canada STILL doesn't acknowledge the damn printer, I wasn't expecting any support anyway.
-
Regarding the rebate, guess someone from HP can clear this up, but from HP's site it says:
"If you currently own a 17-44" wide color inkjet printer(s) and you purchase an HP Designjet Z2100 or Z3100 Photo Printer between February 1, 2007 and May 31, 2007, and you comply with the terms and conditions set forth below, you can receive Cash Back by mail of up to $1,000 depending on the new product you purchase"
I have a feeling that means what it says. If one buys a model z2100 or z3100, you can get the rebate. If you buy the model z3100ps GP, that printer will not be eligible for the rebate (different model). So in essence you are still paying about $900 - $1200 extra for the APS.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114845\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you click on Z3100 from the promo site (http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/promo/extreme/home_f.html), it takes you to the page that show both models, Z3100 and Z3100ps. Therefore, both models are eligible for the rebate.
Unfortunately, I didn't know about the 'ps' model when I got mine three weeks ago.
Jae Moon
-
If you click on Z3100 from the promo site (http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/promo/extreme/home_f.html), it takes you to the page that show both models, Z3100 and Z3100ps. Therefore, both models are eligible for the rebate.
Unfortunately, I didn't know about the 'ps' model when I got mine three weeks ago.
Jae Moon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In the other APS thread, DCT123 posted this report:
"According to a rep at HP Business Customer Service, the rebate applies to all "Z Series printers"...additionally, I was assured that the Z3100ps came with an "onboard (hardware?) Postscript rip and the latest version of APS."
My supplier also assured me that my order for the ps version of the Z3100 will ship before the May 31 rebate deadline."
-
This is the link . US ONLY
http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/pr...reme/terms.html (http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/promo/extreme/terms.html)
-
Since I'm being quoted numerous times, allow me settle this once and for all.
Click on the link below:
http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/pr...eme/home_f.html (http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/promo/extreme/home_f.html)
then scroll down to:
Get a $1,000 cash rebate when you buy an HP Designjet Z3100 Photo Printer (24" or 44")
then click the link on that line which will take you to a page that lists all FOUR 'Z' printers that qualify for the rebate AND the free paper.
-
This what I was wondering when I first saw this. Another poster in another thread has ordered the PS version and the dealer is promising the backordered printer will arrive before the May deadline. Problem is it certainly appears the rebate which amounts to about $1300 when you include the paper does not apply to the PS version. It makes sense that it wouldn't.
I am waiting to see what Onyx and Colorbyte come up with before giving APS any consideration.
Also I must add that this printer is giving me excellent results on hotpress paper without a RIP or extra color management tools.
-
Since I'm being quoted numerous times, allow me settle this once and for all.
Click on the link below:
http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/pr...eme/home_f.html (http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/promo/extreme/home_f.html)
then scroll down to:
Get a $1,000 cash rebate when you buy an HP Designjet Z3100 Photo Printer (24" or 44")
then click the link on that line which will take you to a page that lists all FOUR 'Z' printers that qualify for the rebate AND the free paper.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=114887\")
I did what you said. And I went ahead and started the online claims process. On the drop-down menu from the online claims process, I only see models z2100 and z3100. I do not see "z3100ps GP" - the model number for the newer printers.
And from the Program Details at the HP Terms and Conditions link:
[a href=\"http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/promo/extreme/terms.html]http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/pr...reme/terms.html[/url]
again I do not see the z3100ps or z3100ps GP. From that page, here are the four printers eligible for the rebate. I am copying and pasting:
"HP Designjet Z2100 24" $500 cash back, plus $300 value in additional media
HP Designjet Z2100 44" $500 cash back, plus $500 value in additional media
HP Designjet Z3100 24" $1,000 cash back, plus $300 value in additional media
HP Designjet Z3100 44" $1,000 cash back, plus $500 value in additional media
"
None of those are the z3100ps. Someone can check with HP to clarify, but if the rebate applies to the z3100ps, it is not because it says so in the program Terms and Conditions. I think this is your "free" bundled APS. It's included for the same price, but you you can't get the $1,000 rebate. I'll take the $1,000.
-
This what I was wondering when I first saw this. Another poster in another thread has ordered the PS version and the dealer is promising the backordered printer will arrive before the May deadline. Problem is it certainly appears the rebate which amounts to about $1300 when you include the paper does not apply to the PS version. It makes sense that it wouldn't.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114894\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Charles, didn't you read the posting immediately before your own? If you go to the page for the rebate, and click on the link for the Z3100 printers, it takes you to all four *3100* models, including the PS model. And above those four *3100* models the $1000 rebate is prominently advertised. Just email HP. Before I purchased the 3100 I emailed HP to verify that the Epson 4000 would qualify, and received a response within two days. Then you'll have something in writing that you can share with everyone else who is asking the same question.
-
I think this is your "free" bundled APS. It's included for the same price, but you you can't get the $1,000 rebate. I'll take the $1,000.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114895\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Again, as has been noted above, that is not the logical conclusion from the HP web site. If HP later tried to deny the rebate to the PS model, they would have a tough time making that stick in any legal action by a good Texas firm representing all affected consumers.
As for your point about the "free" APS, well there is NOTHING on the web site that implies or says that. No where does HP claim that the APS is free or a substitute for the rebate. That is your own inference, because you want to continue to argue either that you don't need the APS, or that you can't get the APS. OK. So don't spend the same money for the PS model with the APS. None of us care if you buy only the printer for the same price as the printer and the APS. That is your (foolish) choice to make.
Since there is $1000 at stake, just email the address provided on the web site for the rebates. You'll have an answer within a few days, and then we can settle this debate, once and for all. I'll be very surprised if HP says that the rebate doesn't apply to all four *3100* models, as is clearly shown and implied on the web site.
Again, at least one poster was already told by HP customer service that the rebate applies to all four *3100* models. But I would recommend that one of you just type out an email and get a written response so we don't beat this point to death.
-
Again, at least one poster was already told by HP customer service that the rebate applies to all four models. But I would recommend that one of you just type out an email and get a written response so we don't beat this point to death.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114898\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's right. All you have to do is visit the link he posted and it lists all 4 models that are eligible for the rebate. Unfortunately, none of the models are z3100ps. The four models, as I posted from the Terms and Conditions page, are:
z3100 24"
z3100 44"
z2100 24"
z2100 44"
None of those are "ps" models. So now the pricing makes more sense.
-
That's right. All you have to do is visit the link he posted and it lists all 4 models that are eligible for the rebate. Unfortunately, none of the models are z3100ps. The four models, as I posted from the Terms and Conditions page, are:
z3100 24"
z3100 44"
z2100 24"
z2100 44"
None of those are "ps" models. So now the pricing makes more sense.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=114899\")
I have to give you credit for being stubborn to the end. The web page we all referring to is the illustration of the four *3100* models, with the rebate prominently referred to directly above those models. It doesn't say some of those, or two of those, it clearly implies all four. And when you click on the link for the Z3100 (on the rebate page) it takes you to that web page showing all four *3100* models. The web page we all referring to is:
[a href=\"http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF25a/18972-18972-3328061-12600-3328079-3204970.html]http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF...79-3204970.html[/url]
By all means, go ahead and buy the model without the APS for the same price as the model with the APS. That's clearly what you want to do, so just go do it.
But I'd again recommend that you stop arguing the point, and just send an email to HP and get a written response.
-
I have to give you credit for being stubborn to the end. The web page we all referring to is the illustration of the four *3100* models, with the rebate prominently referred to directly above those models. It doesn't say some of those, or two of those, it clearly implies all four. And when you click on the link for the Z3100 it takes you to that web page. The web page we all referring to is:
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF...79-3204970.html (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF25a/18972-18972-3328061-12600-3328079-3204970.html)
By all means, go ahead and buy the model without the APS for the same price as the model with the APS. That's clearly what you want to do, so just go do it.
But I'd again recommend that you stop arguing the point, and just send an email to HP and get a written response.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=114900\")
HP can answer this for you once and for all, but I think you are answering your own questions.
The Terms and Conditions clearly state z2100 24", z3100 24", z2100 24", and z3100 44". Four models.
But if that is not clear enough, just go visit the link you posted:
[a href=\"http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF25a/18972-18972-3328061-12600-3328079-3204970.html]http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF...79-3204970.html[/url]
You're right, that link does take you to an HP page that shows you four different z3100 models, but no mention is made of eligibility for the rebate. However, if you then click on each of the models for more information about that model, you will find this info for the "z3100 44" and "z3100 24" (no included APS) models:
Quote from the z3100 44" (non APS included) page:
"Special offers: Get up to $1000 cash back on select HP Designjet Z series photo printers!. Offer ends 05/31/07, or see all offers"
Now, let's click on the link for the Z3100ps 44" (APS bundled) model and see what info we can find for that model. Here is the link from the page you posted for more info on the z3100ps 44":
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF...80-3204981.html (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF06b/18972-18972-3328061-12600-3328079-3204970-3204980-3204981.html)
And you will note that, in contrast to the z3100 44 (no APS included) model, there is no mention of the $1,000 rebate for the z3100ps 44 (APS bundled) model. This is in line with the info. I posted from the Terms and Conditions.
All this thread proves is that, unless you can pull a fast one, there is no free lunch. Take the $1000 rebate and don't get the APS or pay the extra dough for the APS later OR buy the model with the APS bundled and give up the $1,000 (or $500 for the 24" model) rebate.
Your thread's title and opening post are a bit of a flame. I'm not stubborn, I'm just reading what's the Terms and Conditions, and your post only supports HP's Terms and Conditions.
-
I have to give you credit for being stubborn to the end. The web page we all referring to is the illustration of the four *3100* models, with the rebate prominently referred to directly above those models. It doesn't say some of those, or two of those, it clearly implies all four. And when you click on the link for the Z3100 (on the rebate page) it takes you to that web page showing all four *3100* models. The web page we all referring to is:
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF...79-3204970.html (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF25a/18972-18972-3328061-12600-3328079-3204970.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114900\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And again, the rebate is prominently referred to, but READ it
"Special offers: Get up to $1000 cash back on select HP Designjet Z series photo printers!. Offer ends 05/31/07, or see all offers"
I assume "select" means what it says. They have "selected" Z models that are eligible for the rebate, and others are not eligible.
What HP is doing is nothing new - it's common practice. And you usually get what you pay for. If you get the z3100ps model, you're getting something those who only get the z3100 model don't get. In return, you don't get the rebate. Each individual can decide if the APS is worth the extra money for the work they do and the tools they already own.
-
Also, I checked the Google cache of the page for the HP Z3100ps GP model on HP's website to see if they "dishonestly" altered the rebate terms in response to your thread. That does not appear to be the case. The cached page also makes no mention to the rebate for the z3100 ps GP model.
I don't think there is any "dishonest" conspiracy here; it looks like just a misunderstanding or failure to read the details or wishful thinking, or probably a little of each. We are all susceptible. And if someone can get the rebate and the APS bundled, more power to you.
-
In Germany the Z3100 GP 24" with APS (Q5669B) is actually 84 Euro cheaper on the HP website as the Z3100 (Q5669A) without APS.
http://tinylink.com/?oIE95TQ68B (http://tinylink.com/?oIE95TQ68B)
-
In Germany the Z3100 GP 24" with APS (Q5669B) is actually 84 Euro cheaper on the HP website as the Z3100 (Q5669A) without APS.
http://tinylink.com/?oIE95TQ68B (http://tinylink.com/?oIE95TQ68B)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114910\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Setting aside the debate over the rebate (since that doesn't apply in Europe) it appears that there is a consistent change in pricing on the retail level in both the US and Germany. So those who bought the Z3100 one or two months ago lost the rough equivalent of US$800, either because they bought the printer separately and didn't get the APS, or because they bought the APS separately.
On a different note, my apologies to all for my part in prolonging the debate on the rebate. Those who are concerned about that should send an email to HP and get a written response. That's what I did when the rebate form didn't specifically list the Epson 4000. I didn't want to be left in limbo; I wanted a definite answer; so I wrote to HP and received one. What I did NOT do was debate it on this forum since that wouldn't do me any good. The only definitive answer that counts, and the only way to protect yourself, is by getting a written response from HP. I then included that written response from HP with my rebate application when I mailed it in. That's what I did, and that is what Roscolo should do. There is enough ambiguity on the HP web page to justify taking five minutes and and writing to them. Why pass up $1000 simply because you didn't send them an email to clarify which printers qualify? And I'm certainly not recommending that you just assume the PS model does qualify. Either way, write to HP and get a written response to either include with your rebate application if the response is affirmative, or buy the unit without APS if the answer is negative.
I recommended that in my first post on the rebate question, and I apologize to all that I didn't just stick to that short answer.
Enough said on that topic!
-
<Marty PORTION: None of those manufacturers turned around and included an accessory in the first 60 days that previously cost $800 ON THE SAME IDENTICAL UNIT.>
Again, I ask: what are you talking about? Product #Q6659A (Z3100 44") is the base printer and does not have a PostScript RIP nor APS. Product #Q6660A (Z3100ps 44") is the base model PLUS PostScript RIP and APS (and other stuff). The MSRP on Product A is less than Product B because it includes less stuff. Here are the four models in question:
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF...79-3204970.html (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/ga/WF25a/18972-18972-3328061-12600-3328079-3204970.html)
If there are resellers out there re-bundling and changing pricing (or even flip pricing and offering the higher priced product for less than the base model), I guess they must have their reasons for doing so. I don't sell printers so I don't know. But the products ARE NOT IDENTICAL.
What am I missing here? Have I entered the Twilight Zone?
Harald
-
What am I missing here? Have I entered the Twilight Zone?
Harald
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=114934\")
Maybe. Everyone else understands, even those who have no sympathy for the fact that we lost $800.
My apologies, in advance, to everyone else for repeating the same issues yet again:
The printer and APS together is now selling for the previous price of the printer alone. This is occurring in both the US, and according to a post above, in Germany.
[a href=\"http://www.provantage.com/hewlett-packard-...cc~7HEWD0LU.htm]http://www.provantage.com/hewlett-packard-...cc~7HEWD0LU.htm[/url]
http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=1496596 (http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=1496596)
http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?357519_...MPAQ_Q5670A#BCC (http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?357519_...MPAQ_Q5670A#BCC)
http://www.pcnation.com/web/details.asp?item=M35744 (http://www.pcnation.com/web/details.asp?item=M35744)
(Do a google search, and you can come up with even more.)
Had we all waited -- if no one had bought the printer until now -- we could have all purchased the printer and APS for the same amount that the printer previously cost.
So everyone who bought the printer alone in the last two months lost out on the APS. The separate cost of the APS is $800. Everyone who bought the printer and the APS in the last two months lost $800 because they bought the separate APS -- had they waited, they could have bought both for the price of the printer alone.
As my very first posting said, HP is clearly pricing the PS model at the wholesale level very aggressively, so the dealers can now sell the PS model at the same price as what the printer alone previously sold for. I can't explain why Julian doesn't get the same pricing advantages as the other dealers, but as I noted, he won't be selling very many printers if his prices are roughly $800 higher than everyone else.
And HP no longer lists the APS as a recommended accessory anywhere on its web pages. It has removed it across the board on the many web pages where it was listed as a recommended accessory. Why? Because it is now included in the printer for the same price as the printer alone. This mass removal of the APS as a recommended accessory occurred on many, many redundant web pages. A fact that many others have commented on above.
The lesson, for all of us, is to not buy any HP products for the first three or four months, and wait until HP drops the prices. OF course, that is a nightmare conclusion for HP, since millions of dollars of inventory will sit around and collect dust while everyone waits for HP to drop their prices.
That is exactly why manufacturers don't do what HP has done to all of us. No one cuts prices by $800 after only 60 to 90 days. Consumers would never buy their products when they first are released if that was normal and acceptable behavior. (The argument that prices always drop for first adopters is false. Not in the first 60 days. Rather than repeating it here, please refer to my posting above on the Blu-Ray analogy.)
Harald, this is pretty basic stuff. Everyone else gets it, especially those who spent the money and lost $800. Read the above postings again, especially the comments from those who wish they could return the printer, and buy the printer and APS for the same price. Honestly, Harald. You may be a consultant for HP, but everyone else can do the math.
Was HP dishonest? Well, I guess if I could change the header on the posting I might drop the word dishonest. I have been persuaded by all of you that my use of "dishonest" might be a bit over the top. Only HP knows if they intended to do this all along and were therefore dishonest. My own guess, as stated above, is that we -- the posters on the forum -- are the ironic victims of our own success. We argued that the APS is overpriced, and many said that it should be included in the base price of the printer. So that is exactly what HP has done. So HP might not have been dishonest, but in cutting the prices we all still lost $800. As one of the other posters put it, HP "honestly ripped us off" and "created a sense of unfairness."
Unfairness indeed. They way they treated all of us -- the loyal customers who were the first to buy their product and try it out, and work through all of the problems -- is appalling.
This sets a new low for how manufacturers treat loyal customers who are the first to buy their products.
Again, the lesson is simple. DO NOT BUY ANY HP PRODUCTS FOR THE FIRST TWO TO FOUR MONTHS AFTER THEIR RELEASE, AND WAIT FOR A HUGE REDUCTION IN PRICE.
Everyone else understands, even those who have no sympathy for the fact that those who were the first to buy lost $800. So maybe you are in the twilight zone, or are just arguing stubbornly for HP despite the basic facts outlined above. In any case, I won't debate the point again and eat up forum space.
-
I rarely chime in on these rants, but I still don't get the frustration...
The latest info on this thread and on the HP site points to the following:
In the US you can buy a Z printer with a rebate, or one with APS for about the same price.
Both offer about $1000 worth of value.
You bought yours with a rebate and now HP offers the same printer with no rebate but with APS included. Where is this $800 you lost? Did you not get a rebate?
Why are you so pissed?
Jim
-
I rarely chime in on these rants, but I still don't get the frustration...
The latest info on this thread and on the HP site points to the following:
In the US you can buy a Z printer with a rebate, or one with APS for about the same price.
Both offer about $1000 worth of value.
You bought yours with a rebate and now HP offers the same printer with no rebate but with APS included. Where is this $800 you lost? Did you not get a rebate?
Why are you so pissed?
Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114947\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
First, if you are correct about the rebate, it only applies in the US. The same price reduction has occurred in Germany. Assuming that it occurs everywhere across the globe, then anyone outside of the US has clearly lost roughly $800 if they bought the printer in the first 60 days. That is indisputable.
Second, the point about the rebate is very much open to debate. Different people on the forum are reading the same web pages quite differently.
At least one poster called HP and reported that the rebate *DOES* apply to the PS model. If that is true, then you are dead wrong in your above posting.
I assume that the rebate DOES apply to the PS model. Both because that's how I interpret the web pages, and because other forum posters were told just that by HP. I posted and started this thread based on that assumption.
I have written to the HP email address on the rebates and asked if it applies to the PS model. Once we receive a response from HP, we'll know the answer to that, one way or the other. (So please, let's not debate the proper interpretation of the HP web pages yet again. As I posted above, the only response that matters is what HP has to say since it is their rebate.)
I hardly think protesting the loss of $800 is a "rant," but I guess you have money to burn. And regardless of the outcome of the rebate issue, anyone outside of the US has lost $800, if this pricing structure is followed by retailers in other countries in the next few weeks. That is already the case in Germany according to the above posting
-
My apologies, in advance, to everyone else for repeating the same issues yet again:
The printer and APS together is now selling for the previous price of the printer alone. This is occurring in both the US, and according to a post above, in Germany.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114945\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You are beating a dead horse. As noted in the posts above, sure, the z3100ps model appears to now be priced the same as the regular z3100 on those sites. But, if you buy the z3100, you get the $1000 rebate back. If you get the z3100ps, you (according to HP's Rebate Terms and Conditions) apparently will not get $1000 back.
Would it make you feel better if the z3100 (non ps) model was priced $1000 lower instead of Hp sending you a check for $1000?
I ordered an HP z3100 (non APS)44" model. I paid $5,935. Because it is the non APS model, I will get the $1000 rebate and $500 in free paper. So, once I get my $1000 from HP, I will have paid $4,935 and gotten $500 free paper on top of that.
If I order the Z3100ps 44" model from one of the sites you posted (pcnation) I will pay $6000 with shipping (and I will have to wait over 2 weeks according to their site). With that model, however, I will not get the $1000 rebate nor the $500 in free media.
So, my cost, including the free media, for not getting the z3100ps model, is $4435...a significant savings over the z3100ps. I could opt to get the z3100ps model instead, but then my cost would be $6000. Not only would I be spending a lot more for the z3100ps, but I would have to wait at least 2 weeks, and as I have a $1800 order waiting to get out, I would probably lose that order (and a great customer!) while waiting.
From what I have read here, I think I will be fine without the APS, and I can certainly use the $1500.
Again, what is the difference if HP prices the printer lower or sends you $1000? Do you just not want to wait a few weeks to get your check? You still pay more for the z3100ps than you do for the z3100 without APS once you get your rebate and free media with the z3100 without APS.
To me it's clear that the z3100ps, when you factor in the rebate for the z3100 (no ps) is more expensive as it is, according to the Rebate Terms and Conditions as they now read, ineligible for the rebate, but just think, after the z3100ps, HP may add some other feature to the printer in 6 months and call it the z3100psXYZ...does that mean HP is dishonest if they don't give that feature to everyone who purchased the initial model?
If so, then I want to call the manufacturer of my 2005 model car and request that I be "upgraded" to all the features of the current model!
I will know more soon, but the APS seems to be more hype than necessity from my research here and elsewhere, and may, in fact, be more of a reason to make those people who are buying the z3100 after the Rebate promotion period ends, feel like they are getting more value for the money as they may not get the rebate.
-
You are beating a dead horse.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114949\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not outside of the US, where the rebate doesn't apply. They clearly lose about $800 on teh 24" model if the same pricing structure applies, as it apparently already does in Germany.
As for the rebate, I'm sure that many forum participants will be contacting HP and asking for clarification. With $1000 at stake, anyone interested in any of these models would be prudent to do so.
So I'm sure we'll be receiving independent verification from more than one source in the next few days, and then we'll have an answer for the US and the US-only rebate.
You have not yet contacted HP according to your postings. Those who have were told the rebate DOES apply to the PS model. So I would again recommend that anyone considering buying one of these models should write to HP, and get a written response via email, since $1000 is at stake.
-
Not outside of the US, where the rebate doesn't apply......
You have not yet contacted HP according to your postings.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114950\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not in Germany. I'm going to have to let the Germans take care of themselves on this one.
Hopefully I won't won't need to be contacting HP, except to get my rebate for my z3100 and my free paper. It's on the list on the rebate submission form.
Looking forward to getting my printer so I can participate on this forum in a more productive discussion. It's getting hot in here.
-
Setting aside the debate over the rebate (since that doesn't apply in Europe) it appears that there is a consistent change in pricing on the retail level in both the US and Germany. So those who bought the Z3100 one or two months ago lost the rough equivalent of US$800, either because they bought the printer separately and didn't get the APS, or because they bought the APS separately.
But you haven't lost $800. It was offered at a price you thought was fair and you decided to buy it. If HP have had to reposition the price for whatever reason, then why shouldn't they? Every time a new camera comes out the price drops after a few months, my 1DsmkII did, I thought it would, but I considered it worth the price at the time, every computer you buy drops in price. If $800 is such a life and death amount you probably shouldn't be buying the printer in the first place. If it's to make money with $800 is neither here nor there, if it's just to have fun with stop worrying about it and go have some fun with it. Does it do what you thought it would as well as you would like?
If they drop the price again ae you going to loose more money? Heaven forbid they ever bring out a new improved version and stop making your model, then you will of lost all the cost.
Kevin.
-
Not outside of the US, where the rebate doesn't apply. They clearly lose about $800 on teh 24" model if the same pricing structure applies, as it apparently already does in Germany.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114950\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Do not worry too much about European customers. We are used to this kind of price differences. If the market would be equal all over the world we would pay 72% of the $ price for items over here (without VAT). It usually is 120% though. Hasn't changed when the $ went belly up either.
In the 8 years that I bought Epson printers that difference has always existed, the US rebates never were available here, the extra media neither, no refurbished printers available from Epson here. When class actions forced Epson to replace media and printers in the US their goodwill wasn't extended to Europe. For example the orange plague, the dye ink that was in the 1290 up to the 10000 dye model that was tested but suffered from gas fading after all. Nothing compensated and even the ad texts were not changed like in the US.
The best deals you could get was with distributors and they usually were not lower than the lowest prices box shifters offered. And they always were higher than what you pay over there.
With that in mind it gets a bit difficult to empathize with your sentiments. The usual US citizin's comment on our price whinings were that we should blame the EC. The next day they think we have better customer protection. Both are incorrect.
It's called marketing and nothing else.
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
-
The PS is not mentioned in the link Marty.
It mentions the 3100, and 2100 models in both 24 inch and 40 inch but I see no mention of a PS version anywhere on the page. If on the other hand people are being told that the PS version is covered by the rebate then I hope they're mistaken. If HP are at this point in the product cycle giving APS away free then I got screwed. Period.
I'll email them not to ask about the rebate on the PS version. I'll email them to ask when to expect my free APS package to arrive. I'll offer to pay the shipping. It will be a waste of time since before I was aware of the APS scam I emailed them to ask them if I could profile with targets other than the one provided and they never bothered to reply. I called them and they said they would call back to let me know and they never did.
-
Revision on May 9:
I apologized too early. The entire premise of this thread had been supported and vindicated.[/color] See the separate thread "Z3100 Rebate PS Version INCLUDED!!!!"
It is now indisputably clear that all we had to do was wait 60 days. Everyone who bought the Z3100 without APS, or who bought the APS separately, lost about $800. If you had waited only 60 days, you would have saved $800.
Whether HP was dishonest is open to interpretation. As one of the above posters put it, who questioned my use of dishonest, it "sounds more like they honestly ripped you off" and created "a sense of unfairness." To say the least. Unfairness and ripping us off to the tune of $800.00
Read my above comments. I was pretty close to the mark, given this development.
I edited the below, just to shorten it. My confession was premature:
****************************
If confession is good for the soul, consider this to be my confessional. Also, regardless of how strongly I might argue my points, I haven't got any respect for those who argue just for the sake of argument, even when it is clear that they are wrong.
So, with that, let me say that the evidence would appear to indicate that I was wrong in the entire premise of this thread, at least with regards to the United States. They both apparently talked to a supervisor, or that's the way it sounded. She said that the PS models would not qualify.
(Again, the new thread indicates that the PS models DO QUALIFY)
Anyone who hasn't bought a Z3100 yet should take another run at this, and see if you get a different answer. You have nothing to lose, and maybe $1000 to gain -- meaning a $1000 rebate on the PS model. TThere is still a possibility that some of you outside of the U.S. bought the plain jane Z3100 without APS or RIP, and the price may have dropped on the PS model. That means that if you had waited 60 days, you could buy the Z3100 with APS and RIP for roughly the same price that you already paid for the 3100 without the APS and RIP. If that is true, I can only say, what a difference 60 days makes. As a U.S. resident, I don't have any information as to whether that is the case, other than referring to one posting from Germany above.)
-
Thanks for following up with HP. Your thread is not pointless and meaningless if you save someone the shock of finding out that the z3100ps is currently not eligible for the rebate until after they have already purchased it and are trying to get the rebate, and I'm sure you have done that. I'm sure some retailers are just going to say it is eligible just to make a sale or because they honestly believe it is eligible. Maybe they read your thread also and learn something as well and don't pass on inaccurate info. regarding the rebate.
As I said, it happens to all of us, especially when $500 or $1000 is at stake!
-
The result of the findings in Canada :
This morning I spend about 25 minutes to find some info from HP Canada. It was nothing but waste of time : Automated messaging / then talked to someone/ then 3 times got transferred to some wrong department , and at the last transfer got This automated message : This number is not in service !! Then I gave up.
If there was a direct number to pre-purchase info department , Hp could save me and their employees 25 minutes of wasted time. For Z series The website still says : COMING SOON !! and Z series has been getting sold since last month !!
Then I called the reseller and asked about the APS or any possible deals from HP Canada.
And the answer was quick . These are the last info at the moment (of course subject to change by HP anytime) :
Z3100 -24" base model (Q5669A) : Suggested retail price : $5400 CAND +taxes
Z3100 -24" base model (Q5669A) : Promotion price : $4585Can+taxes = total $5181CAND = About $4560USD
APS = $900CAND + taxes - Sold separately
Z3100-24 base model+ APS (Q5670A) : not available yet - not clear when might be available.
$1000 rebate + 300free paper is for US ONLY .
(End of the info . received from the reseller)
Well , so far I have paid about $4560 US for base model . No APS or any other rebate. This is what you will get in Canada at the moment.
But the good news is the reseller is a certified service provider for HP and a very nice person. I have had the same luck with Canon reseller.
If there is anything valuable in this report , would be this :
WHATEVER PRINTER OR CONSUMABLE YOU BUY , BUY IT FROM A REPUTABLE RESELLER .
Regards -Avalan
-
I contacted both HP and the marketing company running the rebate and both informed me that the rebate does NOT apply to the ps models. So it would seem that iif you want the APS you would be better off buying the standard model and using the $1000.00 rebate to purchase it.
Bob Simon
-
I contacted both HP and the marketing company running the rebate and both informed me that the rebate does NOT apply to the ps models. So it would seem that iif you want the APS you would be better off buying the standard model and using the $1000.00 rebate to purchase it.
Bob Simon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=115234\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You should add, that not everyone out there has a old printer for the rebate...
-
Here is a funny answer about the price differences in the german HP Shop, where the Z3100 GP 24" with APS (5568 €) is cheaper as the Z3100 24" without APS (5652,50 €):
http://tinylink.com/?RoxoVg3w3W (http://tinylink.com/?RoxoVg3w3W)
Answer from the german HP support:
"This is an error in the system, the update will be done probably in the next week."
Hmm.
-
This rebate business with the hp z3100 Q5670A is weird. I just did a live chat on HP's site and was told that it was included in the rebate.
I then called Market Velocity & was told they actually did not know, & that they are waiting for an answer from HP and will probably know on Monday.
With the APS is a monitor colorimeter included? Which one?
-
This rebate business with the hp z3100 Q5670A is weird. I just did a live chat on HP's site and was told that it was included in the rebate.
I then called Market Velocity & was told they actually did not know, & that they are waiting for an answer from HP and will probably know on Monday.
With the APS is a monitor colorimeter included? Which one?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=115747\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It appears to be the standard lowest cost Gretag colorimeter that you can buy separately although this one has a dongle built in for copy protection of the software.
I'm not surprised by the inconsistent answers on the rebate. Even when I threw in the towel and conceded the argument (see my last posting), I recommended that those of you interested in buying a new Z3100 should still pursue the rebate and see if you can get one with the PS model. I received two different answers in two phone calls one hour apart (see my last posting), and as noted, someone else in the forum was told by HP customer service the rebate *does* apply to the PS model. And the web site does not provide a definitive and clear answer on the rebate for the PS, resulting in page after page of debates on that point in this thread. I just gave up and accepted the second of the two answers that I received, namely that the rebate doesn't apply to the PS model.
It is in your economic interest to pursue the question of the rebate, since it would mean getting the PS *with* APS and RIP for the previous price of the 3100 without APS or RIP, and getting $1000 off on top of that. But if you get a response that the rebate does apply to the PS -- get that in writing in an email -- and then attach that email with the forms when you submit the rebate. Do not just accept the verbal answer of an HP employee or a response off of HP live chat. Since their answers are changing from day to day, and employee to employee, a verbal answer that the rebate applies to the PS model can easily be later rejected when they process your rebate form. Without a written response, the only safe assumption is that the rebate doesn't apply to the PS model.
If you ever receive a response -- in an email in writing -- that the rebate does apply to the PS model, please inform everyone else on this forum, as I'm sure that others would like to know. Because at this point all that we have are inconsistent reports of verbal conversations that change from one day to the next, and they aren't worth anything in terms of applying for the $1000 rebate.
And as my last posting explained, the situation outside of the U.S. is not clear, at least not to me, as to whether those who bought the 3100 without APS and RIP could have bought the 3100 *with* APS and RIP for about the *same* price by simply waiting 60 more days. I only have info on U.S. prices.
-
i just got off the phone to the promotion center. they were very nice. not much of a wait. 12:30 pm central time tues may 08.
very helpful. i only asked if a particular epson 13" printer was fine for trade in.
she said the rebate is based on the z model.
AND without my prompting, she actually made sure that i understood that it does NOT apply to the ps version.
-
I emailed Market Velocity about a week ago asking them If the PS version was good for the rebate. The response I got was that they were looking into it & would reply when they had an answer.
Today I emailed them again asking if they had an answer this is the response that I got:
Thank you for emailing us. Unfortunately, the case is still being reviewed by the program management team. We will get back to you as soon as we can.
We appreciate your patience.
Thank you for your interest in the HP Extreme Upgrade Promotion.
Sincerely,
HP Trade-In Program Customer Service
Bottom line is they actually don't know & they are waiting to hear from HP. I will wait and see what happens.
-
Repeating my revision from above:
I apologized too early. The entire premise of this thread had been supported and vindicated. See the separate thread "Z3100 Rebate PS Version INCLUDED!!!!"
It is now indisputably clear that all we had to do was wait 60 days. Everyone who bought the Z3100 without APS, or who bought the APS separately, lost about $800. If you had waited only 60 days, you would have saved about $800.
Whether HP was dishonest is open to interpretation. As one of the above posters put it, who questioned my use of dishonest, it "sounds more like they honestly ripped you off" and created "a sense of unfairness."
To say the least.
Unfairness and ripping us off to the tune of $800.00
Read my above comments. I was pretty close to the mark, given this development.
-
The horse is not only dead, it's beginning to get ripe. Even valuing his time at minimum wage, methinks Marty has already spent the rebate he didn't get.
-
The horse is not only dead, it's beginning to get ripe. Even valuing his time at minimum wage, methinks Marty has already spent the rebate he didn't get.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, my critics staked almost their entire case on one argument and one argument only: that the rebate doesn't apply to the PS models.
Well, it turns out that it does.
Given that development, I am waiting to see if my former critics are now prepared to do what I did -- admit that their argument has been proven to be false. I did just that when I was told that the rebate didn't apply. I actually apologized to all of you for wasting your time. Turns out I was pretty close to the mark.
What do my critics say now, since we now know that the rebate does apply?
They have been hung on their own petard, and defeated by their own argument.
Find me another company that lowers prices by an astonishing $800 in only 60 days. Why should anyone buy HP products in the first 60 days if you lose $800 for doing so?
The lesson for all of us is this:
DO NOT BUY HP PRODUCTS FOR THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, AND WAIT FOR THE PRICES TO DROP.
And it is precisely because that is the only possible conclusion that companies never do what HP has done to us.
-
Well, my critics staked almost their entire case on one argument and one argument only: that the rebate doesn't apply to the PS models.
Well, it turns out that it does.
Given that development, I am waiting to see if my former critics are now prepared to do what I did -- admit that their argument has been proven to be false. I did it when I was told that the rebate didn't apply. Will they, now that we now that it does?
Find me another company that lowers prices by an astonishing $800 in only 60 days. Why should anyone buy HP products in the first 60 days if you lose $800 for doing so?
The lesson for all of us is to NOT BUY HP PRODUCTS FOR THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, AND WAIT FOR THE PRICES TO DROP.
And it is precisely because that is the only possible conclusion that companies never do what HP has done to us.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Marty, check my post on the "new" z3100 price thread. The ps models appear to be available through HP for $1000 (24") and $1200 (44") more than the non-ps models. Elsewhere there are lower prices, but all the ones I found say backordered or ask you to call for the price.
-
Marty, check my post on the "new" z3100 price thread. The ps models appear to be available through HP for $1000 (24") and $1200 (44") more than the non-ps models. Elsewhere there are lower prices, but all the ones I found say backordered or ask you to call for the price.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116707\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Check out the response from Jim Cole in the "New HP APS thread." You should follow his example.
-
Check out the response from Jim Cole. You should follow his example.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
???
At HP, the z3100ps is $7,495. The z3100 without ps is $6,295. Even after the $1000 rebate, the difference between ps and non-ps is $1200.
-
The horse is not only dead, it's beginning to get ripe...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=116701\")
I'm interested in buying a Z3100 but have put it off until the dust settles.
Dezenhall and Weber recently wrote a book titled [a href=\"http://www.amazon.com/Damage-Control-Everything-Crisis-Management/dp/1591841542/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-4492258-9066227?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178807639&sr=1-2]Damage Control: Why Everything You Know About Crises Management is Wrong[/url]. In this modern age of communication, the book advocates a campaign-style approach to crises management, "the political model assumes the threat of motivated adversaries that want to torpedo you." HP management should put the book on its reading list.
Not that any of us want to torpedo HP :~) But it is interesting to watch them grapple with the modern marketplace.
-
I'm interested in buying a Z3100 but have put it off until the dust settles.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116791\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Fred, you were quick to challenge my motives and ask if I worked for a competitor of HP. Now we learn that you have not even purchased a printer, and therefore are not one of the victims who lost $800. I guess it is easy for you to take a cheap shot and question someone else's motives, since we lost the money, but you did not.
At the time, I turned around and asked what profession you are in, and whether you have any connection to or relationship to HP or any of its competitors. How about responding?
I normally do not challenge the motives of posters on the forum. I think it is a cheap shot, and assume that those who who sell HP products or work as a consultant to HP will disclose that, as several have. And that doesn't lessen the value of their opinions and in some cases means that they have a greater understanding of the product than the rest of us. In point of fact, we benefit from the insights of those who sell HP products or are employed as consultants to HP. They are honorable individuals, and we benefit from their participation in the forum. So again, I don't ask about a person's employment. That is a cheap shot and not one that I'll make. But you did, and now we learn you don't even own the Z3100.
But since you took the cheap shot at me, consider it returned, and I'm still waiting for the response.