Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Charles Gast on April 07, 2007, 08:31:27 am
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I am starting another thread on this because I suspect that like me others are confused by HPs' webpage on the z3100.
Under "features" on the HP webpage it says, " copy and paste";
"HP's Advanced Profiling Solution offers additional options for profiling and calibrating your system."
It mentions nothing about this being at additional cost. I naturally assumed this was in the package with the printers profiling system. Look on HPs' website for the cost of this APS package. You will not find it. This misled me.
I am very disappointed to discover that in order to create a high quality profile with the built in spectro system it is necessary to spend about another $900 on the Advanced Profiling Solution (APS) from HP. This is a marketing misstep and here is why;
1: Under Features on the HP z3100 webpage it mentions the APS but I did not realise it was something not included with the package. It calls it an optional profiling method but I did not know it cost another $900 or so. **I can't find a price on it anywhere on HPs' website.** I now have a z3100 on its way and just found out that I need nearly another $1000 to get it to do what I expected it to do right out of the box. I had a hard time coming up with the $4000 to purchase the printer in the first place. Now this?
2: Any buyer who spends $4000 on a printer is a buyer who is very serious about image quality. I certainly did not expect to discover that the only thing HP provides with the z3100 is a system with a 500 chip profiling target. Its like buying a Ferrari and finding out after the sale it comes with a 100hp engine unless you want the upgrade.
3: Providing the monitor calibration tool with the APS shows they don't know their customers. I am certain that like me anyone else serious about color has already been using a monitor profiling system for years. They can keep their monitor tool. I already have the same one they put in the kit.
In addition to this as it currently stands the larger 1000 chip target with APS requires the use of 24 inch roll paper. When I am trying out new papers I use A3 11x17 inch stock. I can't be buying 24 inch rolls every time I want to try out a paper guys!
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Charles, your points are on target. This whole space of profiling print is confusing as all get out though. Just go to the X-rite/Gretag or Chromix websites and try to figure out what you need and what you get. Good luck.
For example, if you think that what you're getting with the Z3100 and APS might be close to the Eye-One IO which lists for $1,995 then it doesn't seem too bad but no one is making these comparisons.
It sure would be nice to understand how all these offerings stack up with the Z3100.
If we say that the Epson 7800 costs $3,000 and then try to figure in what we get with all the X-rite/Gretag goodies then I'll better understand how much more I like the Z3100 24".
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Charles,
I think that once you get the printer and do calibration and profiling with the built-in (non-APS) software you will be pretty pleased with the output. What you're getting outof the box (plus profiling time) is the equivalent of an Epson or Canon printer after you create custom profiles either in-house or through a profile provider.
All the pre-sales documentation and user manual references I've seen make it clear that APS is an optional feature, which to me at least implied a additional cost. You're right that it's too difficult to find pricing on HP's site. I think it's misleading if HP is marketing APS as something that "serious" photographers must have. And you can find many posts on this forum and others about how patch count alone is not necessarily an indicator of profile quality. In my experience with the Z3100, the out-of-the-box (plus profiling) prints were markedly superior to what you would get with any printer using canned profiles.
Again, I agree that there are certainly areas where HP is not exactly helping themselves, as far as web site info and marketing but unless you want to drive the printer as a CMYKRGB device through an expensive RIP/n-channel profiler combo, I think that with current firmware you'll be pleased with the built-in calibration and profiling.
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It mentions nothing about this being at additional cost. I naturally assumed this was in the package with the printers profiling system. Look on HPs' website for the cost of this APS package. You will not find it. This misled me.
I am very disappointed to discover that in order to create a high quality profile with the built in spectro system it is necessary to spend about another $900 on the Advanced Profiling Solution (APS) from HP.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As everyone knows from previous posts, I am not one to defend HP. But I disagree with Charles. HP was not misleading on this point. I always understood that the APS was an additional purchase.
The exact text, with reference to the APS, states that "HP's Advanced Profiling Solution offers additional options for profiling and calibrating your system." I would interpret the words "additional options" as something that is not necessarily included with the printer. When you click on "supplies and accessories" the APS is listed as a supply or accessory, again implying that it is an additional cost. The HP downloadable data sheet is even more explicit. With regards to the APS, it says that "Also, with the optional HP Advanced Profiling Solution, you can edit and modify existing profiles and create CMYK profiles." That is pretty clear that the APS is optional -- i.e. it would cost an additional amount. I clearly understood that long before I received the Z3100.
(For those of you who think I am just a basher of HP, I hope I have clarified that I'll defend HP when it is warranted, and be very critical if that is justified.)
Adiallo is correct when he says that you will likely be very pleased with the output that the Z3100 is capable of with its own software and without the APS.
When using relative colormetric, I can barely see a difference between the Easy software and Easy profiles versus the APS and profiles created from that. The difference is more evident with perceptual color space. Shadows are slightly more open, especially when comparing the same print using PhotoRag with an Easy Profile and the APS profile. When printing a color test image from Caponigro (a photo of a woman with a fruit basket on her head) there is a difference with red and yellow -- both are *slightly* deeper and richer in color when printed using the APS profile as compared with the Easy profile. If you an exacting professional, the APS might be worth it. If you are an advanced amateur who normally prints only with relative colormetric, it is probably not worth the huge price of $800
If you aren't in a position to compare side-by-side, then you'll likely be pleased with the results you obtain from the Easy software since you'll never know the difference. In my case, I ran detailed tests comparing prints using profiles from the Easy software, to prints from an Epson 4000 using the $1100 Xrite package, and they were pretty similar. And the Caponigro test is a bit artificial. For the standard landscape, I doubt you'd notice the difference. (That is not to say that the 4000 is identical to the Z3100, which is clearly not the case. Not with the built-in spectro; the far better B&W; and the gloss enhancer is awesome even with Epson Luster.)
I infer from the press release on the Xrite web site that the APS may include higher level algorithms and software for creating profiles, as compared with the Easy software, and so it may be more than just including a bigger target. If true, maybe that justifies charging an additional amount for the APS.
I'd only invest in the APS if you are after that last 10% or 15% percent of improvement. That is what professionals, say those who are printing exact reproductions of art or who sell their prints for high prices, would demand.
(A later edit -- see below. Harald correctly noted that pros would also buy the APS for editing of profiles and the ability to do CMYK. My above comments are aimed at advanced amateurs doing RGB.)
I agree that the APS is seriously overpriced for what you get, since for an additional $200 or $300 (i.e. for $1,100) you can get a separate package that includes a spectro, etc. By that standard, the APS is an outrageous rip-off.
As to those who actually recommend that option -- buy an $1,100 package from Xrite or Gretag instead -- well that is just plain nuts. What would you want a hand-held spectro for? The whole reason to buy the Z3100 is for the built in spectro and the convenience represented by that solution, and only the APS works with that.
As one who has used the Xrite hand-held spectro, I can testify that is really time consuming. The HP solution is wonderful in that regard. I love the automation of the Z3100!
But Charles is correct that HP should have just incorporated the largest target into the Easy software at the outset, and not asked anyone to spend an additional $800.
There is no reason they couldn't have done that, and by selling the APS for $800 they are really exploiting -- indeed, raping -- the pros who need the last bit of improvement with better profiles. The Z3100 is expensive enough, and is aimed squarely at that pro market. HP did not create good will with their customers when they created this separate software package and charged an outrageous and completely extravagant price of $800 for it.
Especially when none of us needed the colorimeter for monitors. What was HP thinking? That we are rank amateurs buying our first $400 printer and needing monitor calibration, instead of advanced amateurs and pros buying a $4000 printer who already own a colorimeter? NO ONE NEEDED THE COLORIMETER. HP should have left that out, and cut the price of the software by $200 to $300.
In closing, I again remind everyone DO NOT BUY THE APS until HP issues a sofware revision to fix the problems. Robert (Panascape) posted a detailed summary in the other thread of the revisions planned for the next software release, so it appears that HP will fix the problems.
Robert also reported that the design team appears to be under considerable pressure from upper management to fix the problems.
That pressure is a direct consequence of the previous postings on the APS. Companies commit financial resources only when they have to. HP is driven by the bottom line just like any other corporation. The pressure that Robert refers to directly resulted from threads that open with "DO NOT BUY HP APS."
When they lose sales, they fix the problems. And they commit the resources to do so quickly, i.e. in 1 or 2 months, instead of waiting for one year as is often the case with many other companies.
Now let us hope that they next get all the problems with the Easy software fixed -- i.e. the install problems that have been experienced by some of us, along with the truly rude and arrogant tech support that has been reported on this forum with regards to supporting the software.
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No one is mentioning one of the key features of APS (I don't have it): profile editing. I know a printmaker who is going to get it primarily for that reason. (+ CMYK profile generation)
BTW, I've also had a heck of a time tracking APS down on the HP site, but finally came up the PDF at HP Germany (in English):
http://h30267.www3.hp.com/Data/en/Advanced...df?pageseq=5210 (http://h30267.www3.hp.com/Data/en/Advanced_Profiling_Solution_Letter_low-res_2.pdf?pageseq=5210)
APS product # is: Q6695A
Harald
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Try that link again:
http://tinyurl.com/27pcmg (http://tinyurl.com/27pcmg)
Harald
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No one is mentioning one of the key features of APS (I don't have it): profile editing. I know a printmaker who is going to get it primarily for that reason. (+ CMYK profile generation)
BTW, I've also had a heck of a time tracking APS down on the HP site, but finally came up the PDF at HP Germany (in English):
http://h30267.www3.hp.com/Data/en/Advanced...df?pageseq=5210 (http://h30267.www3.hp.com/Data/en/Advanced_Profiling_Solution_Letter_low-res_2.pdf?pageseq=5210)
APS product # is: Q6695A
Harald
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111263\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Harald is absolutely correct! An additional reason that a pro would buy the APS is because it also does CMYK. Pros would buy it for these reasons as well. But anyone doing profiling editing doesn't need a colorimeter for their monitors!
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Is there a RIP that will take the data from the internal spectro to set linearization?
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Harald is absolutely correct! An additional reason that a pro would buy the APS is because it also does CMYK.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111265\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't forget that as long as you are driving the printer as an RGB device, ie printing through the native printer driver, you will be generating an RGB data profile no matter what profling software you use. If you want to use the CMYK targets with APS you also need to buy a RIP that can drive the printer as a CMYK device. And the few RIPs that can do that come with their own built-in profiling software.
In short, if your print workflow includes a visit to the HP driver, the ability to create CMYK profiles offers no benefit. Whether or not you would want to drive an inkjet as a CMYK device is a whole 'nother thread...
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Yep, Image Print 7 will!
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I've been testing the APS and it's profiles with an Ergosoft Rip and a Wasatch RIP. Neither RIP can use the APS profiles to successfully print. A test profile built with Monaco Platinum and the Wasatch RIP printed very well at first glance.
I'm not convinced that the APS CMYK profiles have the necessary additional RGB channels to drive a 7 color inkset through a RIP.
I'm in touch with HP and will reprot my findings back.
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I've been testing the APS and it's profiles with an Ergosoft Rip and a Wasatch RIP. Neither RIP can use the APS profiles to successfully print. A test profile built with Monaco Platinum and the Wasatch RIP printed very well at first glance.
I'm not convinced that the APS CMYK profiles have the necessary additional RGB channels to drive a 7 color inkset through a RIP.
I'm in touch with HP and will reprot my findings back.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=111746\")
Some days ago I have seen the Z2100 as supported in the Wasatch SoftRip but not the Z3100 so far. Are you testing a beta version of the Z3100 driver or is it already available for everyone who upgraded to the last Wasatch version ?
Do you use the Z3100's integrated calibration/linearsing or the Wasatch linearisation and/or the Platinum one (on top) ? The first would make it easier in keeping consistency but there will be some media profile matching necessary between the printer and the RIP.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Some days ago I have seen the Z2100 as supported in the Wasatch SoftRip but not the Z3100 so far. Are you testing a beta version of the Z3100 driver or is it already available for everyone who upgraded to the last Wasatch version ?
Do you use the Z3100's integrated calibration/linearsing or the Wasatch linearisation and/or the Platinum one (on top) ? The first would make it easier in keeping consistency but there will be some media profile matching necessary between the printer and the RIP.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111824\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Ernst-
Wasatch recently added support to the Z3100 to version 6.1 of SoftRip. I've installed the software and successfully profiled a material using Monaco Platinum and an Eye-one. Ryan in tech support at Wasatch was very helpful.
I used Wasatch linearization after a couple of rounds of channel limiting. The material I'm running doesn't hold much ink. I also set the total ink limit in Wasatch to 200%. I ignored the linearization in Monaco, and set the Ink limit to 200% there as well prior to printing patches. The patches came out dry, although a bit darker then I'm used to seeing. They read ok with the Eye-one, and the resulting profile seems to work well.
I've just heard back from HP regarding the APS profile:
"Marc,
Just got a call from ErgoSoft and it is the same problem there. The RIP
drives the printer in Native mode and therefore requires a CMYKRGB Profile.
They say that you can add their profiling software to the RIP called
ColorGPS which will allow the creation of up to 12 channel profiles. The
APS software as you have discovered only creates a 4 channel profile which
will not work with the Wasatch or PosterPrint RIPS.
Just wanted to close the loop with you.
-= Adam"
I've called my dealer to see if he can get word on the future of the APS, as to it's creating a usable 7 color profile or not.
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I was recently chatting with my HP contacts in Barcelona about APS and thought I would pass on a couple of observations and try to clear up what I think are misconceptions about APS. Keep in mind that I don't actually have APS; I'm just shooting my mouth off based on information and theory... I hope to get APS in the new version.
1. As others like Robert have reported elsewhere here, HP will be releasing a new version of APS soon. It will allow using sheets for targets, down to A3-width-minimum paper. Plus rolls. Huge targets won't fit onto a single A3 sheet, so multiple sheets may be required. Not sure if EVERY target size will be supported in the next version, but they know about this and will eventually have this issue covered. I'm assuming owners of APS can just download and install the update(s) and activate the software.
2. The idea that APS does not work with certain HP papers is not true. It's an independent system not related to media, except in one case: true Canvas. And that's only because Canvas can't be measured correctly by the spectro because the light reflection is not uniform. I believe this is the case with other systems as well. And APS definitely works with Pro Satin, since that's what HP tests it with.
3. I think the biggest misconception is about "having" to buy the colorimeter and "what was HP thinking?". I was also wondering about this since I, like many here, already have a drawer-full of monitor colorimeters, including an Eye-One Display2, which I paid $200 bucks for. So here's the deal: This is an X-Rite decision, not HP's! With APS you are buying a package: software and hardware, with the software doing both monitor and printer profiles. The colorimeter is the dongle (authentication key) for the software. You can't use one without the other. It's an anti-piracy thing. So there is no such thing as buying the APS software without the colorimeter; it's one package. Already having an Eye-One Display2 doesn't matter.
I also thought that the price for APS was steep. But now when I think about it, $250 bucks (list price) gets you a Eye-One Display2 colorimeter for monitors (only). The next step up with Eye-One is something that does both monitor and printer profiles, which is Eye-One Photo. It lists for $1,700. Guess what's exactly in between those prices? APS.
Harald
Harald Johnson
author, "Mastering Digital Printing, Second Edition"
DP&I.com (http://www.dpandi.com)
digital printing and imaging consultant
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I was recently chatting with my HP contacts in Barcelona about APS and thought I would pass on a couple of observations and try to clear up what I think are misconceptions about APS. Keep in mind that I don't actually have APS; I'm just shooting my mouth off based on information and theory... I hope to get APS in the new version.
1. As others like Robert have reported elsewhere here, HP will be releasing a new version of APS soon. It will allow using sheets for targets, down to A3-width-minimum paper. Plus rolls. Huge targets won't fit onto a single A3 sheet, so multiple sheets may be required. Not sure if EVERY target size will be supported in the next version, but they know about this and will eventually have this issue covered. I'm assuming owners of APS can just download and install the update(s) and activate the software.
2. The idea that APS does not work with certain HP papers is not true. It's an independent system not related to media, except in one case: true Canvas. And that's only because Canvas can't be measured correctly by the spectro because the light reflection is not uniform. I believe this is the case with other systems as well. And APS definitely works with Pro Satin, since that's what HP tests it with.
3. I think the biggest misconception is about "having" to buy the colorimeter and "what was HP thinking?". I was also wondering about this since I, like many here, already have a drawer-full of monitor colorimeters, including an Eye-One Display2, which I paid $200 bucks for. So here's the deal: This is an X-Rite decision, not HP's! With APS you are buying a package: software and hardware, with the software doing both monitor and printer profiles. The colorimeter is the dongle (authentication key) for the software. You can't use one without the other. It's an anti-piracy thing. So there is no such thing as buying the APS software without the colorimeter; it's one package. Already having an Eye-One Display2 doesn't matter.
I also thought that the price for APS was steep. But now when I think about it, $250 bucks (list price) gets you a Eye-One Display2 colorimeter for monitors (only). The next step up with Eye-One is something that does both monitor and printer profiles, which is Eye-One Photo. It lists for $1,700. Guess what's exactly in between those prices? APS.
Harald
Harald Johnson
author, "Mastering Digital Printing, Second Edition"
DP&I.com (http://www.dpandi.com)
digital printing and imaging consultant
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113189\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, Harald. This is good info.
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Thanks for the info Haraldo!
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2. The idea that APS does not work with certain HP papers is not true. It's an independent system not related to media, except in one case: true Canvas. And that's only because Canvas can't be measured correctly by the spectro because the light reflection is not uniform. I believe this is the case with other systems as well. And APS definitely works with Pro Satin, since that's what HP tests it with.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113189\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
harald, the current version of APS will not work with the latest firmware if your z3100 is told it is loaded with Pro Satin. The problem is not with APS but with the firmware in the z3100.
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2. The idea that APS does not work with certain HP papers is not true. It's an independent system not related to media, except in one case: true Canvas. And that's only because Canvas can't be measured correctly by the spectro because the light reflection is not uniform. I believe this is the case with other systems as well. And APS definitely works with Pro Satin, since that's what HP tests it with.
3. I think the biggest misconception is about "having" to buy the colorimeter and "what was HP thinking?". I was also wondering about this since I, like many here, already have a drawer-full of monitor colorimeters, including an Eye-One Display2, which I paid $200 bucks for. So here's the deal: This is an X-Rite decision, not HP's! With APS you are buying a package: software and hardware, with the software doing both monitor and printer profiles. The colorimeter is the dongle (authentication key) for the software. You can't use one without the other. It's an anti-piracy thing. So there is no such thing as buying the APS software without the colorimeter; it's one package. Already having an Eye-One Display2 doesn't matter.
I also thought that the price for APS was steep. But now when I think about it, $250 bucks (list price) gets you a Eye-One Display2 colorimeter for monitors (only). The next step up with Eye-One is something that does both monitor and printer profiles, which is Eye-One Photo. It lists for $1,700. Guess what's exactly in between those prices? APS.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113189\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the news!
I use APS from the beginning and believe the Z3100 is one-armed without it - unless you can use third party solutions like EFI Rip, or Onyx.
2.
In fact the APS is not able to work with HP's Pro Satin paper, even to print the TC9.18 target. This limitation is shown when you load the Pro Satin Paper, and the printer transmits the media type to the APS. Starting the calibration process as a new custom paper will work, but you lose the "wired" media options (ink limit, etc.).
3.
The spectro for media profiles is paid already whith the Z3100. Why to compare it's price to Eye-One photo? I agree that having APS can be a good start for a professional one man show with the real benefit of wysiwyg. I'm more disappointed 'cause I own an Eye One spectro... It would be great if X-Rite would offer an upgrade for owners of their previous products. It's easy to read out the model type or serial from the older colorimeters - and no other worries or piracy.
Tom
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Tom, does the spectro in the HP work with your Gretag software?
3.
The spectro for media profiles is paid already whith the Z3100. Why to compare it's price to Eye-One photo? I agree that having APS can be a good start for a professional one man show with the real benefit of wysiwyg. I'm more disappointed 'cause I own an Eye One spectro... It would be great if X-Rite would offer an upgrade for owners of their previous products. It's easy to read out the model type or serial from the older colorimeters - and no other worries or piracy.
Tom
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I was recently chatting with my HP contacts in Barcelona about APS and thought I would pass on a couple of observations and try to clear up what I think are misconceptions about APS. Keep in mind that I don't actually have APS; I'm just shooting my mouth off based on information and theory... I hope to get APS in the new version. I think the biggest misconception is about "having" to buy the colorimeter and "what was HP thinking?". I was also wondering about this since I, like many here, already have a drawer-full of monitor colorimeters, including an Eye-One Display2, which I paid $200 bucks for. So here's the deal: This is an X-Rite decision, not HP's! With APS you are buying a package: software and hardware, with the software doing both monitor and printer profiles. The colorimeter is the dongle (authentication key) for the software. You can't use one without the other. It's an anti-piracy thing. So there is no such thing as buying the APS software without the colorimeter; it's one package. Already having an Eye-One Display2 doesn't matter.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113189\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
HP's justification for forcing us to buy a colorimeter -- that absolutely none of us needed -- is silly and not based on what is actually required for software authentification that prevents software copying and piracy. As Harald noted, what is needed is a dongle, not a colorimeter.
A separate dongle for authentification would have cost far less. Probably less than $5. HP should have charged us $5 for the dongle and lowered the price of the APS by at least $150 by eliminating the colorimeter.
It should be noted that including a cheap dongle is exactly what Gretag previously did with some of their packages -- they included a separate UPS dongle. ImagePrint does the same thing. No one complains about paying for those dongles, because they are simple piece of metal or plastic with a tiny bit of electronics for authentification that costs only a few dollars.
We also didn't need the software to calibrate monitors. That was thrown into the package to justify including the colorimeter and nailing us for an additional $150 to $200. On top of that, the monitor software is limited in several areas as compared with similarly priced packages -- read the review on Galbraith's site.
Finally, it is lame to say that this was an Xrite decision. HP bought the package. HP has the marketing clout to demand that Xrite provide a package based on what PROFESSIONALS actually need -- and not include a basic colorimeter for amateurs.
The marketing division of HP is working overtime to justify a moronic decision that made the APS so expensive that many users of the Z3100 will have to think long and hard before buying it.
If HP had cut the price by $200, and left out the colorimeter and monitor software (and include a cheap dongle) they would have -- in fact -- sold many more copies of the APS software.
HP shot themselves in the foot. It is lame and absurd for HP to blame Xrite for their own moronic marketing decisions. Surely the world-class engineers of HP are familiar with dongles to authenticate software. And it is just as certain that they could have told Xrite what their professional customers actually need.
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The APS is $900. Imageprint will be $1500 when it releases. IP will have more accurately generated profiles tuned for different illumination sources in addition to all the other workflow functions. IP will also include improved ink recipes. The spectro in the z3100 will still be needed to linearize the printer/ paper combinations. Once the cost gets up to the 900 dollar range the added advantages IP will provide make it much more sensible. For now, as I had hoped the z3100 is creating great prints for me without the extras. If I at a future date feel the need to drop about another grand or so on this printer my choice of paths is a no brainer. Wouldn't it be interesting if the z3100 IP and the APS with A3 target compatibility come to market in the same week?
I need to reiterate my dissatisfaction with HP on the whole APS issue. For them to market this wonderful printer with built in spectro and then say "and if you really really want the spectro to perform at its best you buy our APS for $900" is bull.
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Tom, does the spectro in the HP work with your Gretag software?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually I could try it with ProfileMaker / Measure Tool 5.0.2 which is not the latest release of Gretag's software. It isn't on the list of colorimeters, and won't be seen as a standard Eye-One device, of course.
I can use it off-line to create icc profiles for different printers, with APS only. I discussed with a developer from EFI today, how to use the built in spectro from color-management softwares. The problem is the structure of the target, the shape of the patches. The Z3100 built in spectro will not read any other target, but the one created for it, and included with APS (Real targets I mean, like TC9.18, not the basic calibration target included in HP Color Center).
Tom
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So does Imageprint provide a profiler that can take advantage of the onboard spectro, or are you speaking of IP provided profiles?
By the way, isn't IP another grand for those with the 44" model? That changes things a bit.
The APS is $900. Imageprint will be $1500 when it releases. IP will have more accurately generated profiles tuned for different illumination sources in addition to all the other workflow functions. IP will also include improved ink recipes. The spectro in the z3100 will still be needed to linearize the printer/ paper combinations. Once the cost gets up to the 900 dollar range the added advantages IP will provide make it much more sensible. For now, as I had hoped the z3100 is creating great prints for me without the extras. If I at a future date feel the need to drop about another grand or so on this printer my choice of paths is a no brainer. Wouldn't it be interesting if the z3100 IP and the APS with A3 target compatibility come to market in the same week?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113966\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks Tom, I'd appreciate the attempt. Right now a salesman is trying to sell us ColorProof XF for $6500 (I have to figure out if we can cut out a module or not) because I expressed an interest in the RIP being able to profile with the built in spectro. Obviously Wasatch and APS would be a much cheaper option, if I can't do what I want with Wasatch alone. Unfortunately the Wasatch rep I met a week ago at ISA is out of town.
Does anyone know of any other RIPs which will be able to do APS's job for it? Maybe Onyx will...
Actually, I think I need to find a new salesman. This guy is trying to sell me ProfileMaker after telling me he thought Eye One Photo was overkill for us
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My understanding is that Onxy GammaPrint Pro will utilize the onboard spectro and provide true CMYKRGB profiles. Onyx has the info up on their website, but no prices or availability yet. None of their dealers has the product listed yet.
Jim
Does anyone know of any other RIPs which will be able to do APS's job for it? Maybe Onyx will...
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Just to confirm to all that contrary to the info Marty was given, there will indeed be a new version of APS releasing soon and that is all I can say for now.
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Just to confirm to all that contrary to the info Marty was given, there will indeed be a new version of APS releasing soon and that is all I can say for now.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114046\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Robert (Panascape) is quoting from my older postings. I reported that HP tech support told me that there are no plans to revise the APS to fix these problems. Robert subsequently reported, and insisted, that I had received an inaccurate report and a revision to the software is indeed planned.
In response to that, I acknowledged Robert's report and assume that he is receiving more accurate information than what I was told by US HP tech support.
It should be noted that HP needs to revise all of its software and firmware across the board.
* APS -- desperately in need of revision as noted in this and other threads
* firmware -- doesn't work with APS and Pro Satin. Other issues have not yet been addressed as reported in other threads. The last revision was only aimed at a select and limited group of papers -- as also noted in other threads
* Easy software -- some users have reported serious problems and complete failures with the install. HP tech support in the US is incredibly arrogrant, rude and non-responsive on these issues -- as has also been reported by more than one individual in in other threads.
The Z3100 is still a work in progress. Only a fool would buy the APS until these issues are resolved. The same might apply to the printer itself, depending on your patience and willingness to deal with incomplete firmware and software.
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Robert (Panascape) is quoting from my older postings. I reported that HP tech support told me that there are no plans to revise the APS to fix these problems. Robert subsequently reported, and insisted, that I had received an inaccurate report and a revision to the software is indeed planned.
In response to that, I acknowledged Robert's report and assume that he is receiving more accurate information than what I was told by US HP tech support.
It should be noted that HP needs to revise all of its software and firmware across the board.
* APS -- desperately in need of revision as noted in this and other threads
* firmware -- doesn't work with APS and Pro Satin. Other issues have not yet been addressed as reported in other threads. The last revision was only aimed at a select and limited group of papers -- as also noted in other threads
* Easy software -- some users have reported serious problems and complete failures with the install. HP tech support in the US is incredibly arrogrant, rude and non-responsive on these issues -- as has also been reported by more than one individual in in other threads.
The Z3100 is still a work in progress. Only a fool would buy the APS until these issues are resolved. The same might apply to the printer itself, depending on your patience and willingness to deal with incomplete firmware and software.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114158\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would never buy APS until they give me custom targets with custom numbers of patches.
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I would never buy APS until they give me custom targets with custom numbers of patches.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114164\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
FWIW...I've ordered a 24" Postscript version of the Z3100 for $139.00 more than the basic Z, and it includes the latest version of APS.
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FWIW...I've ordered a 24" Postscript version of the Z3100 for $139.00 more than the basic Z, and it includes the latest version of APS.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114183\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So how much did the Postscript add to the cost of the printer?
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So how much did the Postscript add to the cost of the printer?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114223\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
$139...Total cost of the Z3100ps w/APS was $3986.00...as opposed to $3847 for the basic Z3100.
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May I ask where you got it for that price? Thanks
Jim H.
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Ya, I like to know too if all is possible.
Thank You
BlasR
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May I ask where you got it for that price? Thanks
Jim H.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=114232\")
I've bought everything from printers to monitors from this company...good service and prices:
[a href=\"http://www.provantage.com/hewlett-packard-hp-q5670a-bcc~7HEWD0LU.htm]http://www.provantage.com/hewlett-packard-...cc~7HEWD0LU.htm[/url]
Also best prices on paper and ink...I work with Marie at Xt. 120.
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Thanks for that information.
I checked with them and it does show on the website as the HPZ3100ps for $3986.12. If that also qualifies for the rebates for folks with existing 17" or better printers, then it's almost too good to be true.
Thanks again.
Jim H.
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Thanks Tom, I'd appreciate the attempt. Right now a salesman is trying to sell us ColorProof XF for $6500 (I have to figure out if we can cut out a module or not) because I expressed an interest in the RIP being able to profile with the built in spectro. Obviously Wasatch and APS would be a much cheaper option, if I can't do what I want with Wasatch alone. Unfortunately the Wasatch rep I met a week ago at ISA is out of town.
Does anyone know of any other RIPs which will be able to do APS's job for it? Maybe Onyx will...
Actually, I think I need to find a new salesman. This guy is trying to sell me ProfileMaker after telling me he thought Eye One Photo was overkill for us
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114009\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I use EFI ColorProof XF 3.0 (3.1 is out). You can create profiles for the Z3100 with the on-board spectro. There is no solution by EFI to use the Z3100's spectro to generate profiles for other printers, unless you have another spectro. Tested Wasatch (6.0), I'll not use it for professional jobs (hard ink-limiting, color management is not exact).
I've found the best color management in Colorproof XF, with optimizing option. It is fully standardized with ISO and other proofing standards. Ink limiting and other media-sets are cannot be transfered to other rips, but icc profiles (for use with same printer settings).
Build up your XF configuration, use only parts and options you really need. Be careful using it for more than 1-2 printers and production! Forget APS and Wasatch together.
APS is only for stand-alone printers, if no other rip is available.
Onyx.. hm, I'll test it soon. They promise most.
Tom
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If the rebate applies to the printer with the postscript+APS then everyone who has been buying these printers and thinking about getting the APS at some future date has been hosed out of about $700!
Another reason to lose interest in it
Imageprint or Onyx for me. Likely they will have better ink recipes for saturated colors too.
I won't shoot myself in the foot twice. I'm limping a little as it is
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If the rebate applies to the printer with the postscript+APS then everyone who has been buying these printers and thinking about getting the APS at some future date has been hosed out of about $700!
Another reason to lose interest in it
Imageprint or Onyx for me. Likely they will have better ink recipes for saturated colors too.
I won't shoot myself in the foot twice. I'm limping a little as it is
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114389\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
According to a rep at HP Business Customer Service, the rebate applies to all "Z Series printers"...additionally, I was assured that the Z3100ps came with an "onboard (hardware?) Postscript rip and the latest version of APS."
My supplier also assured me that my order for the ps version of the Z3100 will ship before the May 31 rebate deadline.
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According to a rep at HP Business Customer Service, the rebate applies to all "Z Series printers"...additionally, I was assured that the Z3100ps came with an "onboard (hardware?) Postscript rip and the latest version of APS."
My supplier also assured me that my order for the ps version of the Z3100 will ship before the May 31 rebate deadline.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114432\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can tell you the Z6100 will have an option for a hardware RIP (as do the light solvents), I'm really not sure about the Z3100. I can tell you this, though, hardware RIPs are typically VERY slow. Of course, my experience is coming from EFI Fiery's on Xerox DocuColors and Canon ImageRunners (lasers), but you're typically getting slow processors with small memory.
I can't wait to see your report on Onyx, Tom. I'll take your word on Wasatch, even though I truely wanted to make that work. We're looking to integrate our sign business with fine art and photography under the same RIP (we need things like contour cutting), so I think ImagePrint is out. Another one that catches my interest is PhotoPrint Server-Pro from Scanvec. I imagine that would get along pretty well with FlexiDesign over on the sign side, without having to get a full Flexi RIP.
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[
My supplier also assured me that my order for the ps version of the Z3100 will ship before the May 31 rebate deadline.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
If you go the HP webpage
[a href=\"http://h41186.www4.hp.com/country/us/en/pdp/designjet/Z3100-summary.html]http://h41186.www4.hp.com/country/us/en/pd...00-summary.html (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=114432\")
you can see the "GP" version which comes with the APS package and rip is another $1000.00. Provantage is offering this GP printer for less than HP sells the z3100 for *without* the rip and APS?
I noticed they are on backorder too. I think your dealer made a mistake. They will lose money on the sale! Good for you and too bad for them
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Well, if my dealer made a mistake, then other dealers also are making a mistake:
http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=1496596 (http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=1496596)
http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?357519_...MPAQ_Q5670A#BCC (http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?357519_HEWLETT_PACKARD_-_HP/COMPAQ_Q5670A#BCC)
http://www.pcnation.com/web/details.asp?item=M35744 (http://www.pcnation.com/web/details.asp?item=M35744)
...etc.
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I can't wait to see your report on Onyx, Tom. I'll take your word on Wasatch, even though I truely wanted to make that work. We're looking to integrate our sign business with fine art and photography under the same RIP (we need things like contour cutting), so I think ImagePrint is out. Another one that catches my interest is PhotoPrint Server-Pro from Scanvec. I imagine that would get along pretty well with FlexiDesign over on the sign side, without having to get a full Flexi RIP.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=114446\")
Have you heard about Caldera (France)? Take a look! Production, cutting in Linux, you can collect more computer's power seen as one huge calculating station... etc.
[a href=\"http://www.caldera.eu/en/news.php?page=news]http://www.caldera.eu/en/news.php?page=news[/url]
Tom
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Well, if my dealer made a mistake, then other dealers also are making a mistake:
http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=1496596 (http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=1496596)
http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?357519_...MPAQ_Q5670A#BCC (http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?357519_HEWLETT_PACKARD_-_HP/COMPAQ_Q5670A#BCC)
http://www.pcnation.com/web/details.asp?item=M35744 (http://www.pcnation.com/web/details.asp?item=M35744)
...etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Interesting that all of them have the printer on back-order.
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Have you heard about Caldera (France)? Take a look! Production, cutting in Linux, you can collect more computer's power seen as one huge calculating station... etc.
http://www.caldera.eu/en/news.php?page=news (http://www.caldera.eu/en/news.php?page=news)
Tom
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have to say Caldera intrigues me. We're a Windows shop though (with much regret), so I'm really not sure. I'm very competent with Linux (I use an advanced distribution 100% at home), but I'm very hesitant to use it anywhere color is important. Last I checked, there's no kernel support for any spectrophotometers, and not even a mechanism in X for using ICC profiles on monitors. So we would be left buying a Mac, and another CS3 license.
I'm giving ImagePrint a closer look, I'm thinking we could offer tiered pricing where we use RIP supplied profiles for a lower cost, and custom profile all devices immediately before use for those who are more serious. We'd just have to use FlexiSign for the signage and cutting side of things, which would probably be the better path to take anyway.
I'm taking a look at the Ergosoft offering's too, hopefully the Z3100's spectro is supported by ColorGPS.
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I have to say Caldera intrigues me. We're a Windows shop though (with much regret), so I'm really not sure. I'm very competent with Linux (I use an advanced distribution 100% at home), but I'm very hesitant to use it anywhere color is important. Last I checked, there's no kernel support for any spectrophotometers, and not even a mechanism in X for using ICC profiles on monitors. So we would be left buying a Mac, and another CS3 license.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114627\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You could check how far Argyll colour management progressed meanwhile. What I remember reading of Caldera France >2 years ago it should have color management internally but if you want CM on the OS also then Argyll must be the best source.
www.argyllcms.com
The review of Print Fix Pro + Gamutvision (second part) has an HP 130 profile included made with Argyll and it is more or less at the top in quality.
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
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I have to say Caldera intrigues me. We're a Windows shop though (with much regret), so I'm really not sure. I'm very competent with Linux (I use an advanced distribution 100% at home), but I'm very hesitant to use it anywhere color is important. Last I checked, there's no kernel support for any spectrophotometers, and not even a mechanism in X for using ICC profiles on monitors. So we would be left buying a Mac, and another CS3 license.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114627\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As far I know Caldera is a client/server rip, so you don't have to use monitor profile on the server. The client can run on your Windows or Mac ws.
Does anyone of you know about 3rd party rip, which can use Z3100's on-board spectro as a standalone colorimeter? What I've heard from EFI, the printer won't load any printed target to measure, but the Z3100-designed hexa-shaped patches. This can be printed at the icc profiling sections of CM (is the target included in APS only?), but not previous measures like ink-limiting.
Tom
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Caldera is an industrial RIP intended for heavy-duty repro-shops and signage. It's not an amateur tool. It can drive wide-format inkjets, the big eco-solvent and heavy solvent printers and, I think, cutters.
Caldera comes with its own built-in ICC color-management and (if you buy the option) can make profiles with the Xrite/Gretag instrumentation thanks to an embedded Gretag SDK.
I'm sure of this as I helped Caldera integrate the DTP70 spectrophotometer - took one afternoon.
Caldera on Linux is intended to be used as a dedicated machine. You install a Linux box with their supplied distro, that box runs Caldera as a main application, accessible over the net. These days, what with cheap Mac minis, you could go for a dedicated Mac mini, and do the same there, or run Caldera on any other Mac, but in a big shop the price of the computer is the least of the worries of the owner, and you don't want anyone to tamper with the machine running the production flow.
I've used Caldera for photo reproduction. It works nicely. However it's a complex app, and not really intended for casual users.
Edmund
I have to say Caldera intrigues me. We're a Windows shop though (with much regret), so I'm really not sure. I'm very competent with Linux (I use an advanced distribution 100% at home), but I'm very hesitant to use it anywhere color is important. Last I checked, there's no kernel support for any spectrophotometers, and not even a mechanism in X for using ICC profiles on monitors. So we would be left buying a Mac, and another CS3 license.
I'm giving ImagePrint a closer look, I'm thinking we could offer tiered pricing where we use RIP supplied profiles for a lower cost, and custom profile all devices immediately before use for those who are more serious. We'd just have to use FlexiSign for the signage and cutting side of things, which would probably be the better path to take anyway.
I'm taking a look at the Ergosoft offering's too, hopefully the Z3100's spectro is supported by ColorGPS.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114627\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I just got off the phone with hp's rebate promo info. Without my even asking, i was told (very nicely, i might add) that the $1000 rebate for the Z printers did NOT apply to the PS versions.
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I posted this in another area of the forum but will reply here again.
I did a live chat on HP's website on Friday & that support person claimed the PS version was included in the rebate.
I then called up Market Velocity and they told me that they were still waiting for an answer from HP ( They actually did not know).
About a week ago I emailed Market Velocity asking them about the PS printers & the response I got back was they would let me know.
Today I emailed again, asking them if they had an answer and this a portion of the reply that I got:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for emailing us. Unfortunately, the case is still being reviewed by the program management team. We will get back to you as soon as we can.
We appreciate your patience.
Thank you for your interest in the HP Extreme Upgrade Promotion.
Sincerely,
HP Trade-In Program Customer Service
mailto:hpcustomerservice@marketvelocity.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bottom line is they actually do not know!!!!
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I posted this in another area of the forum but will reply here again.
I did a live chat on HP's website on Friday & that support person claimed the PS version was included in the rebate.
I then called up Market Velocity and they told me that they were still waiting for an answer from HP ( They actually did not know).
About a week ago I emailed Market Velocity asking them about the PS printers & the response I got back was they would let me know.
Today I emailed again, asking them if they had an answer and this a portion of the reply that I got:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for emailing us. Unfortunately, the case is still being reviewed by the program management team. We will get back to you as soon as we can.
We appreciate your patience.
Thank you for your interest in the HP Extreme Upgrade Promotion.
Sincerely,
HP Trade-In Program Customer Service
mailto:hpcustomerservice@marketvelocity.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bottom line is they actually do not know!!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116475\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've cancelled my order for the Z3100ps because of the ambiguous answers from both HP and their 3rd party partner, Marketing Velocity. I've been trying to get an answer for two weeks now, and they must be getting quite a few inquiries because the reply you receivedfrom them is computer generated, the same one I received:
"Thank you for emailing us. Unfortunately, the case is still being reviewed by the program management team. We will get back to you as soon as we can.
We appreciate your patience. Thank you for your interest in the HP Extreme Upgrade Promotion.
Sincerely,
HP Trade-In Program Customer Service
Mon-Fri, 8am-8pm, ET
mailto:hpcustomerservice@marketvelocity.com
www.hp.com/go/tradein "
It has become quite apparent through these online forums that upper management at HP is clueless regarding how to handle both technical support and their rebate program.
There are new designs in the works from both Canon and Epson...I believe I'll wait and see what they have to offer.
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[/quote]
It has become quite apparent through these online forums that upper management at HP is clueless regarding how to handle both technical support and their rebate program.
There are new designs in the works from both Canon and Epson...I believe I'll wait and see what they have to offer.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
NEWS FLASH! HP has made a decision:
[a href=\"http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/promo/extreme/terms.html]http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/pr...reme/terms.html (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=116594\")
The entire 'Z' series is elegible for the rebates.
Okay, now I'll admit I was a little bit impatient and too hasty to criticize. I apologize to everyone at HP corporate and Marketing. Maybe you aren't so cluless afterall...just slow.
I've also re-ordered the Z3100ps and a couple thousand in consumables from Provantage. (Thanks for your patience Marie)
DC
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The entire 'Z' series is elegible for the rebates.
Okay, now I'll admit I was a little bit impatient and too hasty to criticize. I apologize to everyone at HP corporate and Marketing. Maybe you aren't so cluless afterall...just slow.
OK Marty and the rest (including me this time)...you have reason again to be upset about the pricing structure and rebates on the Z printers, especially the PS series that includes the APS.
My turn for an apology.
Jim Cole
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The entire 'Z' series is elegible for the rebates.
Okay, now I'll admit I was a little bit impatient and too hasty to criticize. I apologize to everyone at HP corporate and Marketing. Maybe you aren't so cluless afterall...just slow.
OK Marty and the rest (including me this time)...you have reason again to be upset about the pricing structure and rebates on the Z printers, especially the PS series that includes the APS.
My turn for an apology.
Jim Cole
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116642\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Jim, thanks. You are a class act and very gracious.
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So.... what now? Do we start a thread where we ask HP to provide APS to Z owners registered up till now at a reduced price?
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Rdonson,
yes, please start the thread. I just lost $800 because I didn't wait couple month..Oh well HP lost more, people will wait next time.
BlasR