Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: spherop on April 04, 2007, 12:57:51 pm

Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: spherop on April 04, 2007, 12:57:51 pm
I have been mulling over a decision on purchasing this printer. My main concern is I want to be confident that it will be relatively problem free. I have read extensively and it's hard to get a real accurate read on how frequent the various feed, or print quality problems crop up.

I post this poll in the hopes to help myself and others get a good read on the overall reliability of this machine.

Please feel free to post papers you are using along with your vote as that might add yet more light.

Also please do not vote if you have not used the machine fairly extensively as that will not help the data quality.

Thx.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 04, 2007, 04:40:24 pm
I chose the middle option (minor technical issues) and feel that I should clarify.

I ran into a problem where the print head would not park reliably when turning the printer off. If unfixed, this would be considered a major technical issue. I called Epson Support and they sent me a new 3800 via FedEx Standard Overnight and it arrived the next day.

Aside from this, I have had no technical issues and would like to applaud Epson Support for its quick and prompt service.

I assume you have seen these pages:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html (http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html)
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html (http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html)
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: spherop on April 04, 2007, 05:15:21 pm
yes, thanks for pointing out the great faq for this printer. a great resource to learn more and guide users. thanks for your vote-comment.

Quote
I chose the middle option (minor technical issues) and feel that I should clarify.

I ran into a problem where the print head would not park reliably when turning the printer off. If unfixed, this would be considered a major technical issue. I called Epson Support and they sent me a new 3800 via FedEx Standard Overnight and it arrived the next day.

Aside from this, I have had no technical issues and would like to applaud Epson Support for its quick and prompt service.

I assume you have seen these pages:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html (http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html)
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html (http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110641\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Kuryan Thomas on April 04, 2007, 07:13:19 pm
No problems at all for me. I run the 3800 from ImagePrint. I print on Hahnemühle Photo Rag 308, Pictorico Gloss Film, Moab Kokopelli, and Epson Premium Luster.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: BarryS on April 04, 2007, 09:16:39 pm
No problems, my 3800 is rockin'.  Tried a bunch of papers, all have fed well and I haven't met a bad manufacturer's profile yet.  Number one paper favorite= Moab Entrada Natural 300 gsm--luxurious, thick paper fairly similar to HM Photo Rag, but a little creamier toned because of no OBA's and a great price.  Number two favorite= Inkjet Art Micro Ceramic Luster--aka Epson premium Luster.  Amazing price, 17 X 25" sheets and great Pk performance.  


***Support and Request 17 X 25" sheets in your favorite papers. ***
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: mercurius_1 on April 04, 2007, 09:25:26 pm
Quote
Please feel free to post papers you are using along with your vote as that might add yet more light.

Also please do not vote if you have not used the machine fairly extensively as that will not help the data quality.

Thx.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've tried a variety of papers and so far I like the Crane Museo (and Museo Max) as well as the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag papers. No technical problems so far despite trying quite a few different papers. I did buy the printer with an extended 3yr. warranty, as it seems that lately the consumer electronics in our household have been prone to glitches and I just didn't want to deal with anything like that 366 days into owning this printer.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Lisa Nikodym on April 05, 2007, 04:34:21 pm
This is my fourth or fifth Epson photo printer, and I was amazed by how trouble-free it was to set up and get good-looking prints, unlike any of the previous ones.  The networking could have been a problem, but my spouse (who is our home network sys admin   ) got it working quite quickly.

Lisa
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: duranash on April 05, 2007, 04:44:03 pm
If anyone is having significant problems.......I don't want to hear about it!!  I just ordered a 3800 last Tuesday
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: picnic on April 05, 2007, 06:06:13 pm
I voted 'no technical issues'.  On top of that---I bought the 3800 for 2 main reasons to replace the 2200---the media size and mono.  I love the (toned) mono prints.  I just print in Adobe RGB and WYSIWYG.  I'm about ready to buy Hawks Mt. natural Condor which is a lovely fineart paper without OBAs.  I like a number of other papers too but chose it because its available in 17 x 25.  Use IJA microceramic luster (roll for now though its available in 17 x 25 now also--which allows me to cut to size---11 x 1, 8 x 11.5, etc)  and have sampled a number of others.  I really like Innova semimatte and may use it for a boxed portfolio.

Diane
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: RickE on April 06, 2007, 10:05:57 am
I added a vote to the "minor problems" category, and I also would like to commend Epson for their thechical support. I am using my third 3800. The first was DOA with a major mechanical problem. Epson replaced it immediately. The second one arrived with a significant clogging problem that could not be cleared after wasting a tremendous amount of ink. Epson again replaced it, no questions asked. My third one is performing perfectly. (I'm sure Epson doesn't reveal these type of statistics, but it would be interesting to know if the failure rate for this printer is comparable to its others.) So, after the false starts, I'm pleased with my purchase.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: pflower on April 06, 2007, 10:17:51 am
So far 350 sheets of 13x19 Photo Rag, 4 17 inch rolls of the same (Cut into 17x26 inch sheets), 100 sheets of A3 Innova Ultrasmooth Gloss and about 100 A4 Photorag.  Never remember to turn the machine off or sometimes forget to turn it on or whatever - i.e. no consistency.

No clogs no problems no fuss.  Great prints and great printer.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: henk on April 06, 2007, 11:31:45 am
Touch wood, so far no problems. I have the printer now for some months and are ready to change some of the carts.
More than 50% of my printing is B&W and that is fabulous!
Color is, in my opinion, more difficult. What I see is that you need very good profiles to print WYSIWYG. Where my former EPS 2200 was more fore giving!!
I print B&W on Ilford  Galerie smooth pearl and Color on EPS enhanced matte, Ilford  Galerie smooth pearl and Inova FibaPrint white matte.
 The EPS EM is very wet after printing. Any ideas?

I had a 1270 who died while printing and repair cost were just under a new 2200. The 2200 died in the same way. Both after 3 years. Is this a build-in Epson feature?  

 Henk
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: picnic on April 06, 2007, 01:20:34 pm
Quote
I had a 1270 who died while printing and repair cost were just under a new 2200. The 2200 died in the same way. Both after 3 years. Is this a build-in Epson feature?  

 Henk
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110997\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think so LOL.  MY 1280 is still going---and I just 'retired' it.  My 2200, bought as one of the first, is still printing fine also---but not getting much time.  Its sort of a 'backup' since I have room to have it side by side--the 3800.

Its time now to replace a few 3800 carts.  I bought them and have been waiting--still not ready, but a couple of the blacks (I print a lot of monos) are getting low.  Got the printer in December (actually maybe Nov).

Diane
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Sal Baker on April 06, 2007, 01:23:49 pm
Quote
Touch wood, so far no problems. I have the printer now for some months and are ready to change some of the carts.
More than 50% of my printing is B&W and that is fabulous!
Color is, in my opinion, more difficult. What I see is that you need very good profiles to print WYSIWYG. Where my former EPS 2200 was more fore giving!!
I print B&W on Ilford  Galerie smooth pearl and Color on EPS enhanced matte, Ilford  Galerie smooth pearl and Inova FibaPrint white matte.
 The EPS EM is very wet after printing. Any ideas?

I had a 1270 who died while printing and repair cost were just under a new 2200. The 2200 died in the same way. Both after 3 years. Is this a build-in Epson feature?  
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110997\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It must be an optional feature that I didn't pay for.   My 1270 is still going strong after 6 years.  In fact, if it would only die I could more easily justify the new printer I want.

Sal
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: tbonanno on April 06, 2007, 06:29:13 pm
I use the Epson 3800 alongside the Canon iPF5000.  The 3800 is used primarily for cut sheet smaller than 8x10.  I've had no problems with the printer at all with only two minor nozzle clogs since late January.  I also like the fact that bronzing and gloss differential is practically invisible on resin coated papers.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: picnic on April 06, 2007, 07:00:25 pm
Quote
II also like the fact that bronzing and gloss differential is practically invisible on resin coated papers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Isn't that terrific??!?   I didn't note that--that along with the lack of metamerism and the fact I can print WYSIWYG toned monos make me really like this printer.  Unless something catastrophic happens, it will be around for a long time.

Diane
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Tango_01 on April 09, 2007, 03:17:39 pm
Quote
I chose the middle option (minor technical issues) and feel that I should clarify.

I ran into a problem where the print head would not park reliably when turning the printer off. If unfixed, this would be considered a major technical issue. I called Epson Support and they sent me a new 3800 via FedEx Standard Overnight and it arrived the next day.

Aside from this, I have had no technical issues and would like to applaud Epson Support for its quick and prompt service.

I assume you have seen these pages:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html (http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html)
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html (http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110641\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Eric, Just wondering how did you find out that the print head did not park correctly?

I've had my 3800 for one month. Bought it at B&H and as usual they ssipped fast and packed in a double box with inflatable insulation.

I'm in love with this printer.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Peter Langham on April 09, 2007, 05:00:21 pm
I have had a 3800 since the first or second week they were out.  I have had no problems.  The very occasional clog is cleared with one cleaning.  I only print B&W with it.  ABW is great.  I am now playing with QTR for the split tonong and hopefully more intuitive tone (color) control.  I have just made a set of profiles for Innova ultrsmooth glossy and I am about to begin playing to see what kind or results I can get.  I have printed on Photorag and Innova semi matte so far and I am a very happy camper.

Peter
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: TOF guy on April 09, 2007, 09:45:26 pm
I've had no problem at all with this printer. No clogging at all, in particular. I've used the printer sparingly so far ~ once a week.

Overall very happy with the printer, except for ....

On the downside, the issue of switching between matte black and photo black has been more irritating - and costly - than anticipated. As others have suggested, I wish that the driver had the option of warning you if the paper selection is going to trigger an ink switch. A few times I've realized too late that I didn't pick the right paper. With my older Canon i9900 printer, I would just cancel the print immediately before any ink is laid out on the paper, and that's that. Not so with the 3800: the ink switch starts very quickly, and it doesn't look like there is a way to stop (or I haven't found it). So let's say I want to print matte black ink. The printer is ready to use that ink. So far so good. Then I click okay on the printing menu and realize ... too late .. that the paper selection in the driver requires photo black ink. So I cancel the operation. It doesn't matter, now the printer is switching to the wrong ink ... which means that I have to switch it back again right away to be able to get my picture out. A back and forth swap between the two type of inks for not even one print. Ouch!  

With time I suspect that I'll learn to be more careful. But for the time being, what a very annoying feature!

Thierry
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 09, 2007, 10:34:36 pm
Quote
Eric, Just wondering how did you find out that the print head did not park correctly?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111535\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It made a weird sound when turning off as the print head was sliding back to the right. I suspect it hadn't parked properly, though I wasn't sure. The next I turned it on, there was the same weird grinding sound and the print head refused to move. Then I got a Service Call Error (with a specific number) and had to call Epson support. They told me the print head wasn't parked properly. Eventually this problem actually rectified itself but it was intermittent enough that they thought it was better to send a replacement.

No problems with the new one.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 09, 2007, 10:39:27 pm
Regarding the comment about the auto black switch. I agree, the 3800 does force you into a certain careful mode of working if you want to avoid accidentally switching. But with some practice you'll get the hang of it. Just remember: media types at the top are for PK, media types in the bottom half are for MK. Better still: save a custom setting with a descriptive name (e.g., I use EP3800_VFA_RGB_1440U for my setting for Velvet Fine Art color images at 1440 dpi unidirectional). Then I don't have to think about the media type setting.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: PigaPicha on April 10, 2007, 11:17:31 am
My 3800 travelled as checked bagage from Toronto to my home in Tanzania with no ill effects. Epson packs well!

The printer has been a delight right out of the box. Most noticeable for me has been the total absence of clogged nozzles. I run a nozzle check before every printing session and over two months have yet to have a single problem, even after one period of two weeks between print jobs.

The mono performance is outstanding especially after the agony of trying to persuade my old 1280 to produce something approaching a neutral print.

I have printed a number of 37x17 panoramas and although 37.25" is the longest paper that can be handled with the standard driver the paper handling was flawless. I now realise that I can live without a roll feed for the small volumes that I print.

I have used several of the Epson profiles and only have a complaint about the one for Epson Watercolor paper which produced some pretty muddy shadow areas.

I think that this printer is great value for money.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: duranash on April 10, 2007, 02:25:25 pm
"I have printed a number of 37x17 panoramas and although 37.25" is the longest paper that can be handled with the standard driver the paper handling was flawless. I now realise that I can live without a roll feed for the small volumes that I print."

What paper did you use for your 17x37 panoramas?  Did you have to do anything special to get the 37" length - or just type in a user defined print size?
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 10, 2007, 07:40:55 pm
Just a user-defined size. You can enter anything up to 17" wide and 37.4" long when using either the Auto Sheet Feed or the Rear Feed.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: BillPelzmann on April 10, 2007, 08:20:45 pm
I voted "no problem". But I need to add that my original printer arrived DOA.  The print head had become dislodged during shipping, so the printer wouldn't even let me load ink.  Epson replaced it overnight. I definitely compliment the great customer service.  Now they just have to upgrade their packaging to withstand the shipping.

I just finished my first roll of IJA MC-L.  I love the results, but will experiment with some other papers.  I don't mind cutting the rolls to whatever sizes needed.  The flexibility is worth the extra hassle. 16"x28" has become my favorite print size.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 10, 2007, 09:19:09 pm
Quote
I've had no problem at all with this printer. No clogging at all, in particular. I've used the printer sparingly so far ~ once a week.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111616\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Based on accumulated experience with the 4000/4800, I would suggest it's too early to assess clogging. New machines tend not to clog unless there are defects. After a considerable amount of printing gunk builds in the area of the printhead and cleaning/wiper mechanism and that's when the trouble starts. We'll have a better handle on the clogging issue once the printer has been used intensively by a considerable number of people over a period of about six months.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: PeterAitken on April 11, 2007, 06:40:42 am
Hi..

First post here searching for an answer to a problem with my 3800.

Had it for a month or so, was going fine, but I now have a problem.

Some of the prints I do are coming out far too light.. The density just isn't there. Most recently happened after switching from Photo Black to Matt Black. ( I almost always use matt black cause I print fine art reproductions) There is 1 print that it is really noticeable on.. Primarily in an area of blue sky... The lighter blues almost become white and the blacks in the dark areas of water aren't dark enough.

Thought I'd let everyone know of this issue at the same time as perhaps finding an answer. Any help would be greatly appreciated..

(I've attached an example simulation of the problem)

[attachment=2281:attachment]

Thanks, Peter.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: NikosR on April 11, 2007, 06:48:49 am
This might sound stupid, but have you checked for any clogs?  (in the black or grey inks)
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: PeterAitken on April 11, 2007, 07:18:33 am
Quote
This might sound stupid, but have you checked for any clogs?  (in the black or grey inks)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111833\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not stupid at all, but I had previously checked that (twice) and just did it again then to be sure before responding.. All clear, no gaps.

I can't be the only one with this issue. Just to let anyone intersted know, I'm using a canson watercolour paper with profile and I have gotten good prints out previously.

Kind of went like this:

Good
Problem
Good
Matte to Photo black
Good
Photo Black to Matte Black
Problem

I'm not sure if the first problem started after a black ink switch.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 11, 2007, 07:36:35 am
Err, wait ... are you ONLY using MK to print on this paper? or are you also using PK to try to print on this paper?

Also, are you saying that this image USED to print fine on the same printer, but now you can't get it to print the same way?
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: PeterAitken on April 11, 2007, 08:53:33 am
Quote
Err, wait ... are you ONLY using MK to print on this paper? or are you also using PK to try to print on this paper?

Also, are you saying that this image USED to print fine on the same printer, but now you can't get it to print the same way?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111841\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This image has previously printed fine..

Using MK to print on the watercolour paper. (PK was used for some photos on photo paper earlier and the problem arose again after the switch)
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 11, 2007, 09:05:26 am
If you think this is a technical problem with the printer, best to contact Epson Tech Support - they would have the largest experience and data base to know whether it has been reported by others and what to do about it. It is difficult to help with such problems on a web-forum unless you provide alot more information about ALL the settings and profiles you are using in both Photoshop and the Printer Driver and the media, and how consistently this problem arises under a given set of these conditions. I have found on any EPson printer that if the prints start coming out light, it means that one of the blacks has a nozzle clog or an ink droppage. The fact you report this after switching blacks leads one to suspect this may be the case here. While I don't own a 3800 YET, it has occured to me that if I do buy one, I would like to do a nozzle check after each ink switch if the firmware allows it.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: PeterAitken on April 11, 2007, 09:09:30 am
Quote
If you think this is a technical problem with the printer, best to contact Epson Tech Support - they would have the largest experience and data base to know whether it has been reported by others and what to do about it. It is difficult to help with such problems on a web-forum unless you provide alot more information about ALL the settings and profiles you are using in both Photoshop and the Printer Driver and the media, and how consistently this problem arises under a given set of these conditions.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111850\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I have spoken to my reseller about it and they can't work it out... I usually prefer the people (forums) to the companies.. You get good, unbiased, informed answers quickly. Having said that, the problem may not be common so I'll try Epson support tomorrow morning. If anyone does have an answer - I'll keep checking this.

With regards to settings etc. I've been making prints for about 6 years with an Epson 9500 (I still use it for larger jobs.) so all my settings are correct.. The 3800 prints are beautiful when they work.

Thanks to everyone that tried.. If I do get a result from Epson, I'll post it here too.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 11, 2007, 09:38:02 am
Other thoughts:

- are other papers continuing to work ok?

- in particular, have you tried other matte papers using the MK ink, and if so, are they ok?
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: PeterAitken on April 11, 2007, 12:06:25 pm
It appears as though there was a ghost in my mac. I had tried everything - almost sick of wasting paper trying to get this out, I copied the whole image to a new file, set-up the print and it came out perfectly??? Upside is, unless it was a weird coincedence with black ink swap and then another one with copying the image to a new file.. the printer is fine. 3800 prints are looking great again!

Thanks for all your help.. Glad to be here.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 11, 2007, 12:56:05 pm
Nice to hear. If Macs can have ghosts using a 3800, maybe what I can look forward to is PC's having devils.    

I'd like a bit of help from those reading this thread:

(1) Have any of you noticed traces of a slight pin-prick track running vertically down the print on non-matte papers, as if it could have resulted from gently running a pizza-wheel down the paper? You may need to angle the print  to see it - if present.

(2) Have any of you noticed what resembles inked tractor marks down the side margins of the prints on any papers?
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 11, 2007, 04:10:30 pm
Quote
Nice to hear. If Macs can have ghosts using a 3800, maybe what I can look forward to is PC's having devils.   

I'd like a bit of help from those reading this thread:

(1) Have any of you noticed traces of a slight pin-prick track running vertically down the print on non-matte papers, as if it could have resulted from gently running a pizza-wheel down the paper? You may need to angle the print  to see it - if present.

(2) Have any of you noticed what resembles inked tractor marks down the side margins of the prints on any papers?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111898\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, Mark. I have definitely seen pizza-wheel tracks occasionally on some glossy papers or on some of the fiber-based papers (e.g., Innova F-Type White Gloss). It is uncommon and in nearly all cases I have to look specifically for it to see it. Nonetheless it can occur sometimes. Can be decreased somewhat by increasing the drying time.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: PeterAitken on April 11, 2007, 09:38:13 pm
Never noticed any pizza wheel activity but almost all my prints have been on Matte Papers. Only problem I've encountered apart from light prints as previously discussed (That seems to be a computer issue not a printer issue) is occasionally inking on the corners of A2 sheets. A little bit of ink mess right on a corner.

3800 drawbacks to me include poor paper handling.. I thought I'd be able to load at least a few sheets of heavy stock in.. (You can probably put this one down to lack of research on my part prior to purchase) As it stands, I have to load a new sheet of paper every 15 minutes or so.. Very annoying. The drivers are an issue too. As discussed, accidentally changing Blacks is a problem and it never remembers my settings.. Even when I save them. Every single time I print something, I have to make sure colour management is off, make sure I'm loading from the right paper path, make sure the right stock is selected.

If you can handle all of that.. The prints are absolutely superb.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 11, 2007, 10:04:49 pm
Peter, the problem of the driver not being sticky, from experience with the Epson 4800 on a friend's Mac, may well be an OSX issue, not an Epson driver issue; because, on PCs using Windows the driver settings are sticky. Since the Epson driver is similar between all these printers, I would suspect the same applies to the combination of 3800 and Mac. It was hoped that Epson and Apple would cohere on resolving this problem long ago, but perhaps this hasn't happened.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 11, 2007, 10:36:14 pm
Hi Mark,

One thing that happens under Windows with the Epson 3800 driver is that if you are printing from Photoshop, and you go to Page Setup and choose a different size, or you change from Portrait to Landscape orientation, the driver always go back to Premium Luster as the media type (by default). Maybe this happens with other Epson drivers, too (i.e., for other printers)?
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 11, 2007, 10:47:07 pm
Eric,

No, this does not happen with the 4800 driver on Windows XP. NOTHING changes unless the user changes it. Now that said, I do not change orientation or paper size in Page Set-Up in Photoshop. I do that in the Epson Driver itself in the Paper tab. I suggest you try making those two changes in the driver rather than on Page Set-Up in Photoshop and verify whether the media type still reverts to Premium Luster. I see no reason why the media type should default to anything, and if it is doing that, this is a bug Epson should fix. (Or maybe it is a conspiracy to sell more Premium Luster???) Not a bad paper, really.  
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 12, 2007, 12:04:49 pm
Hi Mark,

You are right -- if I change the paper setting / orientation in the Epson driver, but not through the Page Setup option in PS, then all the driver settings are retained (media type, etc.). Thanks for pointing this out.

But yeah, it's a little weird how changing the paper size / orientation through Page Setup causes the driver settings to revert. Oh well ...

I believe the actual defaults (usually Premium Luster, etc.) can be changed by going to the Printers/Faxes box in Windows, right-clicking on the 3800 printer, selecting Properties, click Printing Preferences, and making changes in the resulting box.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: retro987 on April 12, 2007, 12:05:54 pm
Usual niggle, no way to stop ink changing from Matt / Photo black otherwise extremely pleased with the printer, no clogging, leave switched on most of the time. Use IP rip and will soon need my first set of ink refills.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 12, 2007, 12:51:26 pm
Quote
Hi Mark,

I believe the actual defaults (usually Premium Luster, etc.) can be changed by going to the Printers/Faxes box in Windows, right-clicking on the 3800 printer, selecting Properties, click Printing Preferences, and making changes in the resulting box.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112039\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Eric, yes, normally, re-setting stuff the way you describe it above "holds". I also create a set of presents in the Advanced menu of the Color Section on the Main Tab, give it a name - e.g. "Mark Basic", and that also holds till I change it.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: alfin on April 14, 2007, 04:04:21 am
I vote for “no technical issues”. However, I haven’t used the printer for about a week and yesterday when printing, the printer started some cleaning cycle of its own, consuming more than 2 ml ink of each cartridge.

That’s more ink waste than swapping blacks and I’m not even sure it was necessary. I can’t remember any of my other printers doing that after only about 7 days. The thing I did differently was that I installed (or rather activated) the LFP Remote Panel, I don’t know if that has anything to do with it, but I didn’t initiate any cleaning cycle, the printer did that by it self.

Do you guys know when these automatic cleaning cycles are supposed to kick in? If it’s after say a week, then it’s better to print whatever after 5 days to avoid the ink waste.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 14, 2007, 06:55:32 am
alfin, the 3800 has measures built-in to discourage clogs from forming. One of them is running occasional, automated cleanings, based partly on how long it's been since the last cleaning and how long since the print was made (the 3800 "remembers" this info).

It is true that it's unclear whether the cleaning was necessary in your particular case (or anybody else's case) but some ink waste is inevitable ... think of it as going into the printer's maintenance budget! Also, better to "waste" some ink on a cleaning rather than on a ruined print. (If a print ends up ruined, you'll have to perform the cleaning anyways, so you'd end up using more ink ... not to mention the paper ...)
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: alfin on April 14, 2007, 07:11:55 am
Eric,
What you say is of course very true. I was just trying to figure out if you or anyone else knows the interval between these cleaning cycles. I usually do my printing during weekends, but if I can avoid unnecessary cleaning by printing more often, then I do so.

BR/Lars
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: picnic on April 14, 2007, 07:58:30 am
Quote
Eric,
What you say is of course very true. I was just trying to figure out if you or anyone else knows the interval between these cleaning cycles. I usually do my printing during weekends, but if I can avoid unnecessary cleaning by printing more often, then I do so.

BR/Lars
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I remember a long discussion about the LFP on dpreview in the month after the 3800 was introduced and shipping.  The consensus was that turning the LFP OFF was the better thing to do--stopping  more often cleanings.  I think that all of us participating in that thread ended up turning it off-deactivating.  Mine has been off since December with no problems.   I can't remember if one/some of them had talked to Epson people or not though.

Diane
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 14, 2007, 09:58:22 am
Quote
Do you guys know when these automatic cleaning cycles are supposed to kick in? If it’s after say a week, then it’s better to print whatever after 5 days to avoid the ink waste.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112318\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't own a 3800 (yet) but as a "long-time" (8 years is an eternity in this technology) owner of Epson printers (now a 4800), I can confirm this is normal Epson printer behaviour. The firmware has coding that tracks not only the interval between printing sessions but also the square-footage of printing from the previous cleaning, and depending on the combination of time and accumulated printing, it triggers a cleaning cycle. Normally these cleaning cycles consume 4.1 ml of ink; however occasionally they consume 8.2 ml. I don't know what factor makes it select between 4.1 or 8.2. This applies to both the 4000 and the 4800. Since the basic technology is the same, I would expect similar performance from the 3800, give or take a bit for technical refinements from one model to the next.

Perhaps you could explain how you know the cleaning cycle used 2 ml per cartridge. That would imply an automatic cleaning of 18 ml, which is highly unusual based on my experinece with these other printers. Reviewing the content of the LFP panel functions, I doubt this utility has anything to do with the printer's cleaning cycles, except indirectly through the amount of ink used as determined by the media and quality settings you select in the Media Adjustment tab of the LFP.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: alfin on April 14, 2007, 11:19:05 am
Quote
Perhaps you could explain how you know the cleaning cycle used 2 ml per cartridge. That would imply an automatic cleaning of 18 ml, which is highly unusual based on my experinece with these other printers. Reviewing the content of the LFP panel functions, I doubt this utility has anything to do with the printer's cleaning cycles, except indirectly through the amount of ink used as determined by the media and quality settings you select in the Media Adjustment tab of the LFP.

I don’t know if this is the correct way to interpret the ink used, but I just looked at the ink consumption of the first print made when the printer was doing its cleaning exercises, compared to the ink consumption of the following print without prior cleaning. Both prints were A4 Enhanced Matte, very similar portraits of the same person. I assumed that the difference was due to the cleaning cycle.

PK/MK Ink Used   1.97ml   0.07ml
LK Ink Used   2.06ml   0.17ml
LLK Ink Used   1.97ml   0.04ml
C Ink Used   2.05ml   0.11ml
M Ink Used   2.07ml   0.13ml
LC Ink Used   2.06ml   0.14ml
LM Ink Used   2.12ml   0.22ml
Y Ink Used   2.31ml   0.05ml

The difference is 15,68 ml of ink between the two prints.

BR/Lars
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 14, 2007, 12:13:44 pm
Lars, both columns of data are of some concern. Adding the right column yields 0.93 ml. Depending on this size of the border around your print, this amount for one A4 print could be somewhat high to begin with. As guidance, here in Canada we use letter size which is close to A4. I calculate my ink usage on a standardized basis of 54 sq.in. per print. At 2.54 cms per inch, this works out to about 348 cm.sq. For this my 4800 averages about 0.68 ml, but can vary between limits of 0.58 and 0.84 - quite broad, depending on the images. Most images fall between 0.62 and 0.74. Also, I don't pull the data from the "per print" information in the LFP, rather I do a nozzle check and cumulated ink usage is shown from one check to the next. I assume though that both sets of information come from the same calculations in the firmware. Other variables of course are the quality settings and inking limits. I use default inking limits and 1440 DPI quality on EEM paper.

It does look as if you have a net usage of 15.67 ml for the cleaning cycle, which strikes me as high. Not sure why this should happen.

It would be useful for readers to start accumulating and posting this kind of data so we can begin to assemble an impression of what would be normal for this model. But given the variances, it will take a period of accumulation to understand typical behaviour properly.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 14, 2007, 12:28:30 pm
Lars, thanks for providing the data. Can you please explain exactly how you obtained this? Is this information reported by the printer's front panel? Or the job history in the LFP tool, or some other means?
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: alfin on April 14, 2007, 01:47:39 pm
Quote
Lars, both columns of data are of some concern. Adding the right column yields 0.93 ml. Depending on this size of the border around your print, this amount for one A4 print could be somewhat high to begin with. As guidance, here in Canada we use letter size which is close to A4. I calculate my ink usage on a standardized basis of 54 sq.in. per print. At 2.54 cms per inch, this works out to about 348 cm.sq. For this my 4800 averages about 0.68 ml, but can vary between limits of 0.58 and 0.84 - quite broad, depending on the images. Most images fall between 0.62 and 0.74. Also, I don't pull the data from the "per print" information in the LFP, rather I do a nozzle check and cumulated ink usage is shown from one check to the next. I assume though that both sets of information come from the same calculations in the firmware. Other variables of course are the quality settings and inking limits. I use default inking limits and 1440 DPI quality on EEM paper.

It does look as if you have a net usage of 15.67 ml for the cleaning cycle, which strikes me as high. Not sure why this should happen.

It would be useful for readers to start accumulating and posting this kind of data so we can begin to assemble an impression of what would be normal for this model. But given the variances, it will take a period of accumulation to understand typical behaviour properly.
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Why can’t you guys over there convert to normal metric system once and for all?   Anyway, you were kind enough to provide both, so maybe I can handle it!  

I use default inking limits and I also used 1440 DPI, but you have larger borders than I have. An A4 size is 210 mm x 297 mm and I had 15 mm borders on each side for this particular print. That gives 480 sq cm or 74.5 sq in if I calculate correctly, compared to your average of 54 sq in per letter sized print, it’s about 38% larger and hence, printed on your paper size with your borders, my ink usage should be 0.67 ml. That’s well within your normal consumption.

So, how you can use only 4 ml ink per cleaning cycle on your 4800 and I waste around 4 times more = 16 ml on my 3800 beats me. What’s worse is that ink prices in Europe are ridiculous compared to US and Canada. We have to pay more than 1 USD per ml ink here and that’s through the cheapest retailers!

BR/Lars
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: alfin on April 14, 2007, 01:57:31 pm
Quote
Lars, thanks for providing the data. Can you please explain exactly how you obtained this? Is this information reported by the printer's front panel? Or the job history in the LFP tool, or some other means?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=112367\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I just checked the LFP Job Logs and looked at the latest print job.

BR/Lars
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 14, 2007, 04:12:29 pm
Quote
Why can’t you guys over there convert to normal metric system once and for all? 

So, how you can use only 4 ml ink per cleaning cycle on your 4800 and I waste around 4 times more = 16 ml on my 3800 beats me. What’s worse is that ink prices in Europe are ridiculous compared to US and Canada. We have to pay more than 1 USD per ml ink here and that’s through the cheapest retailers!

BR/Lars
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Lars, here in Canada we live in weights and measures confusion, because we did convert to the metric system, but we live beside the USA which didn't and many people disliked the idea from the start anyhow, so we have different things measured in different ways. As for the cost if ink - yes, cartridges for the 3800 in the USA work out to about 70 cents per ml before any sales taxes. In Europe, where you have high VAT rates and they are included in the price, it only takes a VAT rate of 20% on 70 cents to to bring the price up to 84 - still less than a dollar, so yes, you are intrinsically costlier. This probably relates to major differences in the organization of retailing between Europe and North America.

I think the consumption for a single cleaning cycle is very high, but before doing anything about it I recommend you let a few more of them happen, see what they consume. This could have been a one-time experience. If they continue so high I would recommend calling Tech Support.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Ralph Eisenberg on April 17, 2007, 12:09:27 pm
Quote
Hi Mark,

One thing that happens under Windows with the Epson 3800 driver is that if you are printing from Photoshop, and you go to Page Setup and choose a different size, or you change from Portrait to Landscape orientation, the driver always go back to Premium Luster as the media type (by default). Maybe this happens with other Epson drivers, too (i.e., for other printers)?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111971\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thank heavens I read this thread. (And thanks Eric for kindly having answered some e-mail questions on another subject).  Having since yesterday taken delivery of a 3800, I've also encountered this irksome problem, but printing out of Photoshop on the Mac OS. It is really bothersome to have to configure the printer driver for each paper size. The list of saved settings can become considerable. This does not occur on the R2400 which uses the same ink set. I would certainly welcome a revision of the printer driver as well as Epson making their software iterations uniform irrespective of geographic region.

If anyone knows of a workaround that permits paper size adjustments out of PS without having to reconfigure the printer driver, this advice would be welcome.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: duranash on April 23, 2007, 03:51:38 pm
I had to vote for questioning my purchase.  I've just set up the printer over the last couple of days and noticed a great deal of difficulty in getting paper to load from the top tray.  Even plain paper just won't feed unless I give it a hard shove.  I'm also getting a white print "artifact" (for lack of a better choice of words) right down the center of my test images.  A nozzle check prints OK.  Just got off the phone with Epson and they're going to send me a new printer - as soon as they have one available.  Is there any reason why I couldn't remove the ink cartridges from this printer and install them in the new one?  That would give me an unopened set of ink carts.

First couple of prints (ignoring the above issue) seem to be pretty much in the ballpark in terms of print vs on screen image.  I just happen to be working with an image with lots of blue sky, and it seems that my Epson 1270 prints the image with a slightly brighter, punchier blue than the 3800.  Not a huge difference, but clearly noticable.  Is that what others have noticed?
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 23, 2007, 04:18:13 pm
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I had to vote for questioning my purchase.  I've just set up the printer over the last couple of days and noticed a great deal of difficulty in getting paper to load from the top tray.  Even plain paper just won't feed unless I give it a hard shove.  I'm also getting a white print "artifact" (for lack of a better choice of words) right down the center of my test images.  A nozzle check prints OK.  Just got off the phone with Epson and they're going to send me a new printer - as soon as they have one available.  Is there any reason why I couldn't remove the ink cartridges from this printer and install them in the new one?  That would give me an unopened set of ink carts.

Yes, there's a big reason. Once the inks have been installed for the first time, it is very important to ship the printer with the inks installed. Otherwise, damage to the printer could result. Don't worry, the new printer will still come with a full set of inks, so you won't have lost anything.

Quote
First couple of prints (ignoring the above issue) seem to be pretty much in the ballpark in terms of print vs on screen image.  I just happen to be working with an image with lots of blue sky, and it seems that my Epson 1270 prints the image with a slightly brighter, punchier blue than the 3800.  Not a huge difference, but clearly noticable.  Is that what others have noticed?
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This is hard to compare, because differences in color could have to do with the different inks (the 1270's dye inks vs. the 3800's K3 pigment inks), the paper, or the profiles. For example, the dye inks tends to have a deeper black and larger gamut, so you may be seeing a more saturated blue.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: duranash on April 23, 2007, 05:07:39 pm
the dye inks tends to have a deeper black and larger gamut, so you may be seeing a more saturated blue.

That's what I thought might be going on.

On the ink cart issue - just trying to get some "free" ink  
Thanks Jim
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Jess Ames on April 25, 2007, 12:00:49 am
I've added myself into the Major issue - although I have not contacted Epson because I'm already going into this on the pessimistic side.  I have knocking, banding or fading on last 1" and foam pieces on the last print I did.  I will update as soon as I talk to Epson.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on April 25, 2007, 07:47:51 am
Jess, are you seeing smearing of ink on the edges of the print near the bottom 1" or so? If so, this could be a head strike.

Also, which operating system are you on?

Eric
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: ScottWald on April 27, 2007, 09:48:10 pm
I’m seeing problems with shadow clipping (values from 1 to about 15 are lost) and a somewhat lower D-max when comparing my 3800 prints to prints from my former 2200 (both prints are from the same file, both using canned profiles; printing in color).  This is especially apparent on Hahn PhotoRag 308, but noticeable as well on Epson Enhanced Matte. Changing the rendering intent and black-point settings doesn’t help. The prints from the 3800 aren’t awful, but it bothers me to know that they could be better.  Is anyone seeing similar problems?
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 27, 2007, 10:05:50 pm
Quote
I’m seeing problems with shadow clipping (values from 1 to about 15 are lost) and a somewhat lower D-max when comparing my 3800 prints to prints from my former 2200 (both prints are from the same file, both using canned profiles; printing in color).  This is especially apparent on Hahn PhotoRag 308, but noticeable as well on Epson Enhanced Matte. Changing the rendering intent and black-point settings doesn’t help. The prints from the 3800 aren’t awful, but it bothers me to know that they could be better.  Is anyone seeing similar problems?
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If this is of any useful guidance to you, from my Epson 4800 which uses the same inkset as your 3800, my analysis of the Atkinson Printer Test Target printed on Epson Enhanced Matte indicates that greyscale tonal gradations are distinguishable from about L=6 upward. Rendering Intent does not affect this outcome.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: ScottWald on April 28, 2007, 12:12:21 pm
Quote
If this is of any useful guidance to you, from my Epson 4800 which uses the same inkset as your 3800, my analysis of the Atkinson Printer Test Target printed on Epson Enhanced Matte indicates that greyscale tonal gradations are distinguishable from about L=6 upward. Rendering Intent does not affect this outcome.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114645\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thank you MarkDS.  That is helpful, although I am losing values at least as high as 15.  I've also now tried Epson Ultra Smooth Fine Art paper using the supplied Pro38 USFAP profile.  D-max is significantly better than with Hahn Photo Rag (but still not as good as I was getting from my 2200 using canned profiles), but I'm still getting clipping at the low end.  Since this is not a third-party paper, I'm surprised and a bit disappointed.  I am now considering a custom profile.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 28, 2007, 12:57:21 pm
Quote
Thank you MarkDS.  That is helpful, although I am losing values at least as high as 15.  I've also now tried Epson Ultra Smooth Fine Art paper using the supplied Pro38 USFAP profile.  D-max is significantly better than with Hahn Photo Rag (but still not as good as I was getting from my 2200 using canned profiles), but I'm still getting clipping at the low end.  Since this is not a third-party paper, I'm surprised and a bit disappointed.  I am now considering a custom profile.
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Well, I think before going after a solution it would be preferable to understand the problem. The Epson canned profiles are generally acknowledged to be very good, so I wouldn't automatically assume the problem is related to the profile.

First I recommend that you download (from his website) and print the Atkinson Printer Target Test image using a matched Epson paper and canned profile - say Enhanced Matte to keep it cheap and still useful.

Check the grey ramp across the bottom, and the greyscales in the smaller image of vertical grey bars (third row from the bottom second from left). In the second-to-blackest vertical bar, you should see modest tonal separation as you look from the top of the bar downward, because the tonal value of that bar increases from 6 to 12. If you do not see this modest lightening - and it is modest - in your print of the target (which I recommend you print it at least A3 size for reliable assessment)  then it could mean that your printer may be over-inking. I say this, because on my 4800, my print of that target using the canned profile (EEM) does show this very modest lightening between the top and bottom of that second bar.

You then have three options: (1) decrease the ink limits VERY MODESTLY in the Advanced Options of the Epson driver - say several percentage points at a time and each time reprint the target to check for two things: (i) improved tonal separation in that second bar and (ii) the overall saturation of the test image - virbancy can visibly suffer from reduced ink limits; (2) get a custom profile so that whatever the problem with inking in your printer, the custom profile MAY compensate it; (3) call Epson and ask them to fix or change the printer such that the default ink settings and the canned profiles give you the Atkinson Target Test print quality that you should get.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: ScottWald on April 28, 2007, 02:55:14 pm
Quote
Well, I think before going after a solution it would be preferable to understand the problem. The Epson canned profiles are generally acknowledged to be very good, so I wouldn't automatically assume the problem is related to the profile.

First I recommend that you download (from his website) and print the Atkinson Printer Target Test image using a matched Epson paper and canned profile - say Enhanced Matte to keep it cheap and still useful.

Check the grey ramp across the bottom, and the greyscales in the smaller image of vertical grey bars (third row from the bottom second from left). In the second-to-blackest vertical bar, you should see modest tonal separation as you look from the top of the bar downward, because the tonal value of that bar increases from 6 to 12. If you do not see this modest lightening - and it is modest - in your print of the target (which I recommend you print it at least A3 size for reliable assessment)  then it could mean that your printer may be over-inking. I say this, because on my 4800, my print of that target using the canned profile (EEM) does show this very modest lightening between the top and bottom of that second bar.

You then have three options: (1) decrease the ink limits VERY MODESTLY in the Advanced Options of the Epson driver - say several percentage points at a time and each time reprint the target to check for two things: (i) improved tonal separation in that second bar and (ii) the overall saturation of the test image - virbancy can visibly suffer from reduced ink limits; (2) get a custom profile so that whatever the problem with inking in your printer, the custom profile MAY compensate it; (3) call Epson and ask them to fix or change the printer such that the default ink settings and the canned profiles give you the Atkinson Target Test print quality that you should get.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114734\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks again Mark.  I did as you suggested, printing the Atkinson Lab Test Page on 13 x 19" Epson Enhanced Matte paper with the Pro38 EMP profile, color adjustment off, perceptual intent, BPC on.  It looks good.  The bar you refer to shows even gradation from darker at the top to lighter at the bottom, and continues to look this way when I mask the adjacent bars with white paper (although it is, as you warn, a very subtle change).  The ramp across the bottom, and the other bars in the pattern your refer to, all look as I would hope they would, and the overall vibrancy of the images on the page is good for this paper.

So, I assume (please correct me if I’m wrong) that my printer is functioning well and that I should not adjust the ink limits.

However, this leaves me with the problem of explaining why detail in the 0-to-15 range of an image I am trying to print is being clipped when I use the very same paper-and-profile combination.

One other clue.  On a quasi-whim I went back and printed my test image on Enhanced Matte paper with the canned Hahn profile for Photo Rag and the Epson 2200 (i.e., I printed on the 3800, but the profile was intended for the 2200) and the shadow detail I am looking for reappeared (although the print suffers in other respects).
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 28, 2007, 04:02:50 pm
Quote
Thanks again Mark.  I did as you suggested, printing the Atkinson Lab Test Page on 13 x 19" Epson Enhanced Matte paper with the Pro38 EMP profile, color adjustment off, perceptual intent, BPC on.  It looks good.  The bar you refer to shows even gradation from darker at the top to lighter at the bottom, and continues to look this way when I mask the adjacent bars with white paper (although it is, as you warn, a very subtle change).  The ramp across the bottom, and the other bars in the pattern your refer to, all look as I would hope they would, and the overall vibrancy of the images on the page is good for this paper.

So, I assume (please correct me if I’m wrong) that my printer is functioning well and that I should not adjust the ink limits.

However, this leaves me with the problem of explaining why detail in the 0-to-15 range of an image I am trying to print is being clipped when I use the very same paper-and-profile combination.

One other clue.  On a quasi-whim I went back and printed my test image on Enhanced Matte paper with the canned Hahn profile for Photo Rag and the Epson 2200 (i.e., I printed on the 3800, but the profile was intended for the 2200) and the shadow detail I am looking for reappeared (although the print suffers in other respects).
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Hi Scott, based on what you describe it sounds to me as if your assumption about leaving the ink limits alone is correct. Everything you've done points to your original hunch being most likely correct: the problem could well be the performance of the Epson profile for those particular papers giving you this problem.

That said, it is generally the case, unfortunately, that detail in these deep tones does tend to be smothered with matte papers. This is a well-known phenominon. John Paul Caponigro, for exampe, has material about this issue on his website.

But even so, it does not explain why you got better results for the same image with the 2200 than with the 3800. This is counter-intuitive because the 2200 is one inkset and two printer generations behind the 3800. It could be a fluke result for something unusual about that image. If, however, you are seeing this on a number of images it may be worthwhile buying a custom profile for the paper you most prefer and see to what extent that solves the problem. If you do and it works, please let us know, because even without seeing the problem image, this is information that others may find useful.

Also, could you explain a bit more in what ways the print suffered from using the Hahn/2200 profile in the 3800? If the answer is that the remainder of the print was looking kind of washed-out, that would suggest the Hahn/2200 profile on the 3800 is allowing less ink overall, which favours the shadows and kills everything else. That again points to the possible usefulness of a custom profile for the 3800.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: ScottWald on April 28, 2007, 05:36:35 pm
Quote
Hi Scott, based on what you describe it sounds to me as if your assumption about leaving the ink limits alone is correct. Everything you've done points to your original hunch being most likely correct: the problem could well be the performance of the Epson profile for those particular papers giving you this problem.

That said, it is generally the case, unfortunately, that detail in these deep tones does tend to be smothered with matte papers. This is a well-known phenominon. John Paul Caponigro, for exampe, has material about this issue on his website.

But even so, it does not explain why you got better results for the same image with the 2200 than with the 3800. This is counter-intuitive because the 2200 is one inkset and two printer generations behind the 3800. It could be a fluke result for something unusual about that image. If, however, you are seeing this on a number of images it may be worthwhile buying a custom profile for the paper you most prefer and see to what extent that solves the problem. If you do and it works, please let us know, because even without seeing the problem image, this is information that others may find useful.

Also, could you explain a bit more in what ways the print suffered from using the Hahn/2200 profile in the 3800? If the answer is that the remainder of the print was looking kind of washed-out, that would suggest the Hahn/2200 profile on the 3800 is allowing less ink overall, which favours the shadows and kills everything else. That again points to the possible usefulness of a custom profile for the 3800.
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Hi Mark, I’ll try some other images and see how things look.  Also, I think I’ll focus on Epson Ultra Smooth Fine Art paper so that I know that the Media Type settings at least are correct (with the Hahn Photo Rag these settings are a big unknown) and then experiment with different profiles, perhaps some of them custom.  If I come up with a combination that gives the results I was getting with my 2200 I’ll let you know.  

As far as the print from the 3800 using the 2200/Hahn profile is concerned, no, I wouldn’t say that the print was washed out; indeed, if anything it is slightly richer, more saturated than the print on the same paper (Epson Ultra Smooth Fine Art) using the Pro38 USFA profile.  But the colors shifted towards magenta–rather dramatically–and there are gradation problems in some flesh tones which I would almost describe as posterization.  All in all, even though the shadow details are back, the print is unacceptable.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: yachtfb on May 12, 2007, 05:18:53 am
  Well all I can say is that it came out of the box - it connected to my wireless network router first attempt - it showed all the cartridge data immediatley - and it has printed faultlessly every time since.

Wonderful!

Now to prove that I can give a balanced view, it did take me a while to work out how to use the manual feeds sucessfully, but that is familiarisation I suppose.

So far I have only been using Epson branded consumables so I can start off from a known base, I shall experiment with other papers soon, but I will stay with Epson inks.......

So how about looking at your pricing Epson because I tend to be very frugal with my printing just because your prices frighten me! - Make them cheaper and I, and I am sure many others will ignore the cost and print and buy more.

Everyone wins in that scenario. So be bold Epson and buck the trend of high ink prices - and maybe prove that there is no pseudo price cartel in operation.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: ecemfjm on May 14, 2007, 04:24:44 am
Hi,

After more than a month and almost 100 A3+ nature and landscape prints (border and borderless) and a few A2, only one ink catridge got empty yesterday (light black). The others are still from 25% to 50%. And they are the first set, where about 20% got wasted on the initial setup. Pretty frugal.

Still no technical problems except some head scratches on the last border on heavy paper (Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308). No problems with the first border, but if the last one is just a bit curled, the head touches it unless the platen gap is set to wider.

I just quit trying to use EPSON Archival Matte. No good results on blacks or dark tones. EPSON Watercolor Radiant White gives gorgeus results, and this is becoming my main paper for this printer. Really, really good.

A nighmare with settings and print quality with Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, and I still got better results with WCRW than with HM. To the best of my knowledge, this is due to the icc profiles for the paper. I've tried with a lot of settings.

With the HM profile (HFA3800PhotoRagMK), if you set the media type as Velvet Fine Art Paper (VFAP) and 1440 dpi, then the results are really bad. Some colors are pasted and resolution are bad. With the same setings, if you increase the dpi to 2880, then things improve a lot, but still not really good. With the HM profile you must set media type to WCRW. Then the quality is good at any dpi. But only good. Especially in flat or very even colors (such as fog or cloudy skyes), the ink droplets can be appreciated to the naked eye. I tried with 1440, 2880, and high and low velocity (HV, LV). Slightly better with 2880 and LV, but not for fireworks.  VFAP setting doesn't work wit the HM canned profile.

This do not happen if you use EPSON WCRW paper (with the EPSON canned profile). With this paper it is impossible to see the droplets with the naked eye (even at 1440 HV) and hardly with a 4x magnifying glass. I'm still very impressed with the results of WCRW.

I tested Hahnemuhle Photo Rag with the Booksmartstudio free profile, with slightly better results than with the HM. Also tested with the DTG profile. The DTG profile gives me better results than the HM and the Booksmartstudio, and it is now my default profile for the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag.

Also I detected difference between 1440 HV and 2880 HV and LV (didn't test 1440 LV). I can appreciate increase in quality from 1440 HV to 2880 LV. If you are not in a hurry, it is worth use 2880 LV.

I also compared 3800 results with the EPSON 2100 I still have opperative. Whatever the profile and setting combination I have used for the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag in the 3800, results from the 2100 is always better than from 3800. ALWAYS.

This is not the case with the EPSON WCRW which you cannot distinguish results form 2100 and 3800, apart from that 3800 is faster and cheaper.

I also checked rendering intent, and differences from Perceptual No BPC and Relative Colorimetric BPC are, in most of the cases, just a question of taste. I tend to use Perceptual No BPC.

In general I'm a bit disappointed with the 3800 in the sense that I expected better results from using an expensive top of the line paper, and got the best results from a cheap and considered as low profile paper. And not a noticeable increase in quality from the old 2100. I never expected to se the droplets with the naked eye in the HM paper. And I'm sure it is not a printer fault because WCRW and even Archival Matte (with all of they problems) are perfectly OK.

I'm going to order some other more upscale EPSON papers to find a replacement for the HM paper, wich I have not been able to make it work with the 3800, and I do not want to devote to it any more time or money. At least until HM releases better profiles. I refuse to buy third party profiles for a paper. If HM wants me to keep using their paper, better provides usable profiles for the 3800.

Of course I'm using last versión of profiles, printer firmware, color managed by PS CS2, and so.

Regards

Manuel
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on May 14, 2007, 08:46:57 am
The benefits of the K3 inks don't really carry over to matte papers, except with regards to B&W printing through the ABW mode (which features a deeper black and improved longevity) and less metamerism.

One of the problems you may be running into is simply a poor profile for Photo Rag.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: ecemfjm on May 14, 2007, 10:44:01 am
Quote
One of the problems you may be running into is simply a poor profile for Photo Rag.
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Thanks for telling me what I already know. I didn't ask for solutions, just wanted to share my experience.

Anyway if you know about any canned profile for the 3800 that, in your experience, works better than the ones I've tested, with results that improve the 2100 results, that information would be really helpful.

Regards

Manuel
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on May 14, 2007, 03:26:09 pm
I am simply pointing out that a poor profile has little to do with the capabilities of a printer or a paper. The best printer, inks, and papers in the world can easily be made to look poor with inferior profiles.

I'm pointing this out to reinforce the notion that if you (or anybody else) is dissatisfied with the results you are getting using a canned profile, consider investing in a custom profile.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 14, 2007, 05:39:31 pm
Manuel, we like to believe we are community of well-intentioned people here, so when members report problems, there is a natural human tendancy on the part of other members to offer potential solutions arising from their experience. That is one of the major benefits of this forum and shouldn't be misunderstood for something it isn't.

Anyhow, I agree completely with what Eric is saying - I would only add one refinement about the role of K3 inks - the structure of this inkset is said to improve B&W neutrality and tonality regardless of whether one works in the ABW mode of the Epson driver or does the conversion in the imaging application.

There is an additional clue in your post that may suggest your problems with results exceed profiling alone, but if you are interested in the feedback, you would need to provide additional information to help diagnose that. It is this. You say that you quit using Epson Enhanced (Archival) Matte due to "no good" blacks or dark tones. Actually if I may speak for him, Eric and I are both very interested in this issue and have collaborated with a fair bit of work on it eventhough we live in different cities. I would appreciate if you could describe more fully what is "no good" about Enhanced Matte. I use this media almost exclusively in my Epson 4800 and the results are on the whole very good  - acknowledging that the D-Max of ANY matte paper is lower than that on gloss media.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: ecemfjm on May 15, 2007, 07:59:15 am
Hi,

I appologize If I sounded rude. It was not my intention.

I expected that the 3800 and the HM photo rag paper will work, but, fort me, it is not working. And since there are many other good papers, including some Epson's, I prefer to find the right combination of paper and standar profile than trying to make work a combination that the maker doesn't bother to make it work (HM photo rag and the 3800), or invest in custom profiles. I do not have the time nor the money to invest on it. And I do not thnik that the results will worth the effort. Especially because HM photo rag works OK with the 2200.

Regarding the Epson Enhanced Matte paper, the thing is related to the splodges that appear in the dark tones. As before, since the Epson WCRW paper gives very good reults, I quit trying to make the Enhanced Matte paper work in the 3800. I'll use the 2200 to print with this Matte paper, and the 3800 for the WCRW.

I've ordered a box of UltraSmooth fine Art Paper (325) from EPSON. I'll receive it in a few days and I'll tell you the comparison with the HM photo rag in the 3800.

Regards

Manuel
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: madmanchan on May 15, 2007, 08:15:49 am
Thanks for the clarification, Manuel. The splotchiness problem with Enhanced Matte on the 3800 does appear to be real and, as of today, not yet resolved. I have not seen any such problem on UltraSmooth Fine Art.

For a paper similar to the appearance, materials, weight, and price of Enhanced Matte, you may wish to consider Premium Matte 2.0 by Red River Paper (in the 47 lb version) or Matte BW by PremierArt.
Title: POLL: Printing Experience with Epson 3800
Post by: Mark D Segal on May 15, 2007, 09:16:29 am
Manuel, thanks - just to add to what Eric said - I personally brought this issue to Epson's attention during the Tech Expo at PhotoshopWorld in Boston last month, and at their request gave them sample prints illustrating the problem. They expressed considerable interest in having this examined. We are awaiting their findings. One of the factors that may complicate resolving it is that it does not appear to be consistent behaviour accross printers or even from the same printer at different times. Anyhow, let us await their response.