Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Landscape & Nature Photography => Topic started by: David White on March 19, 2007, 10:17:24 pm
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Last week while photographing in Death Valley at Zabriskie Point, I witnessed some of the most irresponsible, inconsiderate and rude behavior by a workshop leader that I have ever seen. The individual set his group up in a line on top of a rock formation right in the middle of a scene that several people at the top, in the viewing area, were trying to capture. A couple of us moved to another location and had to recompose a different image than what we were going to shoot.
The sad thing is that a group of photographers was taught that it is OK to set up wherever you want without consideration for other photographers in the area.
To the person that was leading the workshop – I hope that a hairy booger takes up residence on your sensor until you learn to improve your behavior.
[attachment=2121:attachment]
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David,
Next time go in late January. When I was there the weather was beautiiful (the Zabriskie sunrises, too), and it was too early in the season for workshops. There were at most a dozen photographers there, and they all stayed out of everybody else's way.
Maybe you could send your picture to that workshop leader and ask him to clone out all of his group for you.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience there. The worst thing I encountered was the zillions of footprints in the dunes at Stovepipe Wells. There were no serious winds to clear them away the week I was there, but I got some good shots anyway.
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Last week while photographing in Death Valley at Zabriskie Point, I witnessed some of the most irresponsible, inconsiderate and rude behavior by a workshop leader that I have ever seen. The individual set his group up in a line on top of a rock formation right in the middle of a scene that several people at the top, in the viewing area, were trying to capture. A couple of us moved to another location and had to recompose a different image than what we were going to shoot.
The sad thing is that a group of photographers was taught that it is OK to set up wherever you want without consideration for other photographers in the area.
To the person that was leading the workshop – I hope that a hairy booger takes up residence on your sensor until you learn to improve your behavior.
[attachment=2121:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was there last week and my partner and myself went to the right of the viewing area and hiked up to the top of the hill. Better view of the scene and no one else there. (It was challenging in the dark though). We were not the first ones up there as there is a well worn path
This is also true at Oxbow at the tetons. I went there with a workshop a couple of years ago. Got to the spot well before sunrise (still dark) and there were already 38 tripods set up claiming a spot. I guess you need to camp out over night or find a better spot?
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Hello David,
I understand your frustration. Have you been to Upper Antelope? What a zoo that has become. For me, I have chosen to totally avoid the "cliche" locations now. Being in those environments is simply not artistically stimulating at all to me. My last visit to Upper Antelope literally had a dozen photographers in a 10 foot square area. It was insane to me and totally unproductive. Perhaps that is one major reason "why" Michael continues to go to Anarctica. I know it is hard to resist these familiar locations and when we have little time and resources it is the most efficient way to find a satisfying photograph. But for me, I have found that taking time to explore lesser known locations, ones that really connect with me, to be a much more gratifying experience. And no other photographers in the scene with me! Best wishes on your photography.
Jeff
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I echo jeffball's advice. Why go where you will find the worn divots from the tripods of a thousand photographers who have preceeded you? The World Quota for these shots were exceeded years ago. Find your own venue and perhaps discover photography can be more than reproducing (usually inferior) calendar shots.
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I think that everyone is missing my point. It wasn't the location or time of year. I've been to many crowded locations, including Zabriskie, and have never seen the lack of consideration displayed by the person that was leading the workshop. I would expect that someone billing themselves as a professional and teaching others would know better.
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Rudeness is becoming a signature of our (north american) culture and maybe others too, for all I know. There have been a few articles about it in the press lately (Macleans magazine a few months back). I bet if you google "rude" you'll get dozens of links to sociological publications. (I am referring to the rudeness we express towards strangers; the absence of public manners.)
In the case you mentioned, it may be simply group behaviour. In larger numbers, humans behave badly all too easily. Ask any waiter.
It may come from a culture of anonymity, a by-product of living in areas of large population like cities. The less chance there is of running into someone again, the less reason there is to be courteous. What's to be gained? Over time, more and more people behave this way until you reach a critical mass at which point there is no point being nice to anyone anymore. It's almost a statistical argument in the sense that as there are fewer nicer people around, there is less reason to be nice.
We live in a selfish culture I think. People figure that because they paid top dollar to be somewhere, and may not get there again, they just stand their ground and to hell with others. People like that often sleep in late though and then spend a long time giving the breakfast servers a hard time, so if you're quick you can be out and back before they show up to the site.
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Part of the reason I try (please notice the word "try") to be nice to all I meet on my trips is the hope that it will be contagious and just maybe they will be nice to the next person they meet.
Plus, I'm playing in their yard.
...and dog gone it!!.. it just FEELS good!!!
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David,
I got your point--I have seen this rude behavior before too. Generally I don't shoot where there are people or other photographers. Perhaps this rude fellow will read this, realize it was his group and know better next time.
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Hi David,
It is also possible that the workshop leader knew the area very well and knew that the chosen location was "better" than the viewing area to avoid simply taking the "cliche" shot. I have never been to that part of the world so I can't comment on the pros-and-cons of one spot over another. Is there anything in writing at the viewing area that prohibits people from going to another area? It IS possible (and it is a slim possibility) the leader did not see you or the other people. Your location looks like it was in deep shadow.
How long was the group there - 5, 10, 30 minutes? If they were there for just a few minutes then I would say "fair enough". If the leader knew you were there and stayed for more than 30 minutes then I would consider that a "no no".
Did you or anyone else call out to the group to get their attention to let them know there was someone behind them? Did you speak to the workshop leader afterwards?
Did they respond to your calls? If you got a response did they say they would move along in a few minutes or did they basically tell you "tough luck"?
What one person thinks of as rude is just someone else trying to get a better shot.
Personally speaking, I have had to change my "chosen" position to re-compose because something in the scene gets in the way - whether it is a person, animal or the light not hitting a rock correctly - very often the change of location (1m or 500m) can result in a better shot (and sometimes not). This is just life.
If I would have found myself in your position I would have gone to the workshop location and maybe be pleasantly surprised to find a great shot before me. I could also have pointed-out to the leader that there were other people behind them and not to stay too long there.
I understand your feeling of frustration, but don't let it get to you. Go back another day enjoy the scenery and take a great photograph. Don't mourn the photos we never take.
Maybe if you post the exact date you went there the workshop leader may (if he reads LL) contact you and give their side of the story....
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David,
Did you say anything to the tour leader?
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I see all sides of this, but I wonder...
- If the workshop leader cannot take his people to the preferred location on the bluff.
- If everyone else shoots from the road because they are not aware of the advanced vantage point.
- If there is never an opportunity to shoot from the secret preferred location because the standard vantage point is always populated and to violate the view is considered rude.
- Then, having knowledge of the preferred spot whilst desiring to be courteous means you never shoot from the preferred spot.
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I see all sides of this, but I wonder...
- If the workshop leader cannot take his people to the preferred location on the bluff.
- If everyone else shoots from the road because they are not aware of the advanced vantage point.
- If there is never an opportunity to shoot from the secret preferred location because the standard vantage point is always populated and to violate the view is considered rude.
- Then, having knowledge of the preferred spot whilst desiring to be courteous means you never shoot from the preferred spot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107842\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And there is the rub, I still think common courtesy or common sense goes a long way. I was in Cuba a few years ago with a workshop. We were in Vinales Valley
(the instructor instructed everyone beforehand about staying out of other photographers shots etc.) Down in the valley (as the sun was setting) was a fabulous shot. About the time the light was perfect a member of our group with white pants and red shirt was walking down the trail and was in all our shots. (this was before digital cameras) I just came to the conclusion that he was either brain dead or an ofe (jerk).
It is tempting to get there first and claim your spot but it is also nice to surrender the spot or at least offer to share it when the time presents itself.
I am also coming to the conclusion, as many have already expressed, that maybe I should spend less time chasing after the Iconic shots that a bazillion have copied already and spend more time getting something that is truly my shot?
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While I abhor that kind of rudeness, no one owns a point of view.
IMO workshops (some of which I teach) have engendered another kind of rudeness, that is it alright for multiple people to basically repeat the same shot like some herd of voracious lemmings. How many people have I seen with that same shot of the cougar jumping from rock to rock at some wildlife place? I primarily use view cameras. Worse to me is the person who slams on his brakes, jumps out of his car, runs up and set up his DSLR camera right next to you and tries to "see" what you are seeing and starts banging away. VCs are a magnet for this kind of behavior for some reason. Sorry to rant, this is a pet peave of mine. While this may be alright and even necessary to some extent in a teaching situation, outside of that, I find this behavior very annoying.
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You want to see this entire situation taken to its hysterical ultimate?
The flight deck at Bosque at daybreak in December. People watching is almost as entertaining a bird watching.
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Worse is getting stuck on that roadway loop at Bosque behind trolls who are too fat to get out of their car to shoot and don't even pull over so others can pass!!!! You can't honk either.
Solution, as said above, don't go to places that have been photographed excessively. That's what I do, or try to do.
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Worse is getting stuck on that roadway loop at Bosque behind trolls who are too fat to get out of their car to shoot and don't even pull over so others can pass!!!! You can't honk either.
Solution, as said above, don't go to places that have been photographed excessively. That's what I do, or try to do.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And when they do finally move, they kick up a cloud of dust! If you happen to be changing lenses, you are totally defenseless.
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Dave:
Sorry to hear about your experience. We were in Death Valley last week and fortunately the workshop locust had left the day after we arrived.
I did a little research and there were 3-4 workshops over the last couple weeks with some costing upwards of $2600 (not including air). Possibly explains, but does not EXCUSE the rude behavior.
The dunes were pretty marked up (close to the road)--that's why we hiked way out to the back and found some pristine conditions!
The race track was nice on Saturday night...nobody there at sunset, absolutely gorgeous and dayam those rocks are hard to chase
One way to avoid the workshop locust is to avoid off the road/100 yard walk locations Generally the workshop crowd won't hike 2+ miles one-way in snow or 100 degree weather!
On a positive note, I was in Yosemite recently and a workshop leader reminded his group that "those guys" were there first (we arrived at 5am to wait a storm) and let them have their shots. So, not all workshop leaders are bad! If workshop leaders would model and teach "field manners", it would be better for all of us.
I hope you did get a stellar shot though!! Awesome images are the best revenge!
Kindest regards,
Rich
NGOphotographer
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You want to see this entire situation taken to its hysterical ultimate?
The flight deck at Bosque at daybreak in December. People watching is almost as entertaining a bird watching.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Or Tunnel View overlook in Yosemite Valley just about any time of the year but the dead of winter. You'll see everything from camera cellphones to large format and everything in-between lined up side by side and several rows deep.
While not condoning rude behavior, at iconic locations like these it is almost impossible not to be "rude" at some times because of the density of people, especially if one is waiting for best light.
If someone is already there, I go look for other compositions.
Paul
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Or Tunnel View overlook in Yosemite Valley just about any time of the year but the dead of winter. You'll see everything from camera cellphones to large format and everything in-between lined up side by side and several rows deep.
While not condoning rude behavior, at iconic locations like these it is almost impossible not to be "rude" at some times because of the density of people, especially if one is waiting for best light.
This is one of the places where getting just a couple of minutes' walk away from the road helps immensely. There is a trail zig-zagging up the valley wall that leaves from just across the street from Tunnel View. A few minutes up the first couple of zig-zags gets you the same view without all the people; my spouse & I call it "Improved Tunnel View". (The trail is pretty narrow, though, so it might be tough to set up a tripod for any length of time without discommoding other hikers there, however few they are...)
Oops, I've giving away some of my Yosemite secrets!
Lisa
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I think that everyone is missing my point. It wasn't the location or time of year. I've been to many crowded locations, including Zabriskie, and have never seen the lack of consideration displayed by the person that was leading the workshop. I would expect that someone billing themselves as a professional and teaching others would know better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107705\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
While I understand your frustration, it should be noted that the area from which the group was taking photo is not the critical part of the sunrise scene. They are in shadow and you were try to taking pictures from parking lot. Many photo guide books specifically recommend to take a short walk from the parking lot in order to reduce 'too much' dark foreground.
During my last visit a month ago, I was among 15+ photographers in that exact location. None of us were with a workshop, many with simple P&S, a couple with DBs, and one 45 film.
Jae Moon
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While I understand your frustration, it should be noted that the area from which the group was taking photo is not the critical part of the sunrise scene. They are in shadow and you were try to taking pictures from parking lot. Many photo guide books specifically recommend to take a short walk from the parking lot in order to reduce 'too much' dark foreground.
During my last visit a month ago, I was among 15+ photographers in that exact location. None of us were with a workshop, many with simple P&S, a couple with DBs, and one 45 film.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So what if they were in shadow and how do you know that they weren't in a critical part of the scene from where other photographers were? Sure they were in shadow, but that was changing rapidly.
I have to wonder if you were ever there because that location is not even visible from the parking lot which is much lower.
There was a pro at the same location I was who also thought the behavior was bad and a person who is a well known instructor and workshop leader also thought that where the workshop group set up was inexcusable.
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Oops, I've giving away some of my Yosemite secrets!
Lisa
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There's also the ventilation side tunnel in the tunnel itself... oops, there goes one of my secrets, too
Paul
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Bob: another one is Eileann Donan castle in NW Scotland: get there after the car park opens on any nice-weather day, and take your pick of the lines of folk with tripods set up at the water's edge or arms aloft with P&S cameras. I meant to record it last time I was there, and forgot in my amusement.
I'm sure most of us can come up with a location in our own country.
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I had a similar experience at the Temples of Angkor. I arrived before sunrise everyday to be in position for sunrise photos. This worked well, but an hour or so later, busloads of tourists arrive and the chance of a temple photo without tourists included becomes impossible. So I turn my camera on the tourists, this can lead to some amusing photos as well.
Tourists at Angkor (http://www.pbase.com/camboman/tourists_at_angkor)
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Windsor Castle, changing of the Guard.
I have to admit, I WAS RUDE.
Otherwise, no shot.
Brits expect rudeness from Americans, so I am told.
(http://boku.smugmug.com/photos/21443917-M.jpg)
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I had a similar experience at the Temples of Angkor. I arrived before sunrise everyday to be in position for sunrise photos. This worked well, but an hour or so later, busloads of tourists arrive and the chance of a temple photo without tourists included becomes impossible. So I turn my camera on the tourists, this can lead to some amusing photos as well.
Tourists at Angkor (http://www.pbase.com/camboman/tourists_at_angkor)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108085\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's exactly how it is, Camboman. Those damned tourists are everywhere Hope you got a few shots without them.
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Bob: another one is Eileann Donan castle in NW Scotland: get there after the car park opens on any nice-weather day, and take your pick of the lines of folk with tripods set up at the water's edge or arms aloft with P&S cameras. I meant to record it last time I was there, and forgot in my amusement.
I'm sure most of us can come up with a location in our own country.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108080\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thats why I shoot it at night...
(http://www.bphotography.co.uk/fineart/pics/Elileen.jpg)
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I understand the principle: I spent two-three hours shooting a pair of marmots in Yoho NP (Canada), not because I particularly wanted to shoot them for that long, but because the rock the marmots were sunning themselves on was very near the road, and I, with the tripod and large lens, was too tempting a target for anyone who drove by to resist. While I had parked down the road and approached quietly, most pulled off right there, including a whole busload of Japanese tourists. One couple insisted on walking up to try to get a shot of them with their P&S, and couldn't be argued out of it (it had to be a 20mme lens...).
I took up deliberately misleading people by pointing my camera at the nearby mountain vista whenever I heard a car coming. This worked for the most part (but not on that last couple). The result was that I could never coax both the marmots into a good position on the rock before they would be scared off. The failings of the one-marmot photo are my own.
[attachment=2157:attachment]
In Algonquin, after I waited long enough with tripod that the moose were grazing right in front of me, a European couple spotted me and came over to pet (sic) the moose, right in front of my camera.
[Neither of these were quite as good as the foreign tourists in Jasper (Banff?), who, overhearing a conversation I was having with another photographer, pestered me for the best way to find a bear off-trail at daybreak during cub season. I explained to him that he really did not want to suprise a bear off trail at daybreak in cub season, especially not with is small children, but he didn't seem to believe me.]
-Sean
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[Neither of these were quite as good as the foreign tourists in Jasper (Banff?), who, overhearing a conversation I was having with another photographer, pestered me for the best way to find a bear off-trail at daybreak during cub season. I explained to him that he really did not want to suprise a bear off trail at daybreak in cub season, especially not with is small children, but he didn't seem to believe me.]
-Sean
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108203\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Did you help them? A Darwin award might be more than they'd otherwise achieve. Put a little chlorine in the gene pool.
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While I understand your frustration, it should be noted that the area from which the group was taking photo is not the critical part of the sunrise scene. They are in shadow and you were try to taking pictures from parking lot. Many photo guide books specifically recommend to take a short walk from the parking lot in order to reduce 'too much' dark foreground.
Jae Moon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The photograph below was taken at sunrise and includes a large shadow area. Once a shadow area is corrected for contrast and tone the colors in it are actually extremely saturated.
This photograph also includes the area where photographers are standing in David's photograph (the one at the start of this thread). I could not have created my image if there had been people in this area on the day I was there. You can see the path leading to the area where people were standing in the center foreground of my image. I was located further to the left (South) than David was when I took this photograph.
(http://beautiful-landscape.com/OPP/Zabriskie-point.jpg)
Incidentally, I led a workshop in Death Valley the week prior to the incident described in this thread, and I made sure my students did not step into other people's photographs. As a workshop leader I see it as one of my responsibilities to teach my students what is proper and improper behavior.
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Did you help them? A Darwin award might be more than they'd otherwise achieve. Put a little chlorine in the gene pool.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108204\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't think that I didn't consider it...
-Sean
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Last week while photographing in Death Valley at Zabriskie Point, I witnessed some of the most irresponsible, inconsiderate and rude behavior by a workshop leader that I have ever seen. The individual set his group up in a line on top of a rock formation right in the middle of a scene that several people at the top, in the viewing area, were trying to capture. A couple of us moved to another location and had to recompose a different image than what we were going to shoot.
The sad thing is that a group of photographers was taught that it is OK to set up wherever you want without consideration for other photographers in the area.
To the person that was leading the workshop – I hope that a hairy booger takes up residence on your sensor until you learn to improve your behavior.
[attachment=2121:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not that this makes you feel better but I think you might be onto a new series of work. Landscapes with tourists/workshop groups. I find the shot with the people in it conceptually more interesting than yet another shot from the same location as thousands of others. You could document these groups at all the popular shooting locations. Yosemite, Death Valley, etc.
- Doug
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I understand that the state of technology is close to producing a meter that can detect if a site has been visited in the past by other photographers. It will integrate traces of chemicals that correlate with the composition of either film or sensors. An advanced mode will consider the composition of tripods and saliva residue to futher determine how "serious" the photographers might have been. Of course it will be sold both to the "sheep" and "(lone) wolf" markets.
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An example happened to a group of us on a rare kind of day in February. A photographer in a particularly bright outfit chose to dwell in a shot for at least 20 minutes, to the great frustration of serious photographers waiting for him to leave. I decided to make the shot anyway and choose later whether to clone the one person out, which is easier than a large group.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/billb6/MP20070223-0839-w720.jpg)
A figure adds scale. A crowd detracts. I'm not sure about this one. I'll probably end up cloning the dolt out.
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I am not sure if he was being rude. Did he know you were there? Was he not a serious photographer-and does that even matter?
Is this the same as the original post? If this is the case, we could always be in the way of other photographers. Nice shot by the way.
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I am not sure if he was being rude. Did he know you were there? Was he not a serious photographer-and does that even matter? Is this the same as the original post? If this is the case, we could always be in the way of other photographers. Nice shot by the way.
Thanks. From the large number of photographers (minimum of ten at any given time) lined up at the edge of the meadow, staying out of each other's way, we would have been obvious to him. The more serious the photographer, the more they should have been cognizant of their responsibility and effect. If he was even halfway competent, he could have set up ahead of time (especially the choice of lens, aperture, shutterspeed and ISO), walked in, dwelled there for about a minute and walked out, for a total interference of three (3) minutes, which would have been fine and entirely understandable.
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A little counterpoint:
I was in a very, very remote monument (park area), with perhaps a dozen people in it (half were serious-looking photographers). It's an exposed area and anyone in the park would be visible in wide-angle shots. I happily took my photos anyway, and then relaxed to watch the sunset with my friend.
A photographer set up a panoramic camera at the edge of this monument, and started yelling at every individual in the park (actually, he got a kid to do the yelling!), trying to get them to leave entirely so he could have his shot with no people in it. We actually actually thought the kid was yelling at some other kid on the other side of the park, and ignored it. No-one else left either. Even if we had known, there was no way we were going to respond to some kid's yelling, or spoil our evening by taking the long walk out of the area and leaving early just for one photographer among many.
On our way out of the park, the photographer hurled epithets at us, calling us "*ssh*l*s", etc., for not leaving the park upon his (the kid's, that is) yelling. Dude, we would be 3 pixels tall in your precious shot.
Ultimately, public parks are for everyone!
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These behaviours are for sure not very nice, but, on the other hand, why be where everybody else is?
A good backpack and a tent are the best weapons to shoot in locales that few people dare going to. Winter is of course even better from this standpoint.
If I can find amazing places in Japan without anyone around, I am sure it can be done in the US as well since the country is 25 larger with only twice the popullation.
Regards,
Bernard
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A good backpack and a tent are the best weapons to shoot in locales that few people dare going to. Winter is of course even better from this standpoint.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=108718\")
I've always thought this guy ([a href=\"http://www.stephenwillard.com/home.php?retailid=SAW]photographer with llamas[/url]) had the right idea for 'getting away from the crowd'. Probably helps a lot with the weight of his large-format gear too
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A figure adds scale. A crowd detracts. I'm not sure about this one. I'll probably end up cloning the dolt out.
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Allan:
I think I may be that "[un]serious photographer dolt". I'm sorry about that. When I entered the meadow with my buddy, we didn't see anybody shooting in our direction. We're pretty careful about that.
There was clean virgin snow in front of the chapel with the snow-covered trees creating a layered frame for the chapel. My buddy left about 5-10 minutes before I camped out for my shot.
I sat there waiting for some people to clear from in front of the chapel. One person was watching me, so I had to wait until he got bored (which took abut 10 min) watching me and moved out of the scene.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Kindest regards,
Rich
NGOphotographer
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I think I may be that "[un]serious photographer dolt". [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
He will ask you to sign a release.
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I think I may be that "[un]serious photographer dolt". I'm sorry about that. When I entered the meadow with my buddy, we didn't see anybody shooting in our direction. We're pretty careful about that. There was clean virgin snow in front of the chapel with the snow-covered trees creating a layered frame for the chapel. My buddy left about 5-10 minutes before I camped out for my shot. I sat there waiting for some people to clear from in front of the chapel. One person was watching me, so I had to wait until he got bored (which took abut 10 min) watching me and moved out of the scene. Sorry for the inconvenience. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It may not have been you, but I forgive you. It sounds like a chain of photographers waiting on the ultimate rude person standing in the shot with nothing better to do than get in the way. We could construct a new conundrum ... "In hell there are 95 vistas and 95 photographers waiting for the next one in the chain to get out of the shot while ultimately the first photographer is waiting in vain for the devil to get out of the shot".
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It may not have been you, but I forgive you. It sounds like a chain of photographers waiting on the ultimate rude person standing in the shot with nothing better to do than get in the way. We could construct a new conundrum ... "In hell there are 95 vistas and 95 photographers waiting for the next one in the chain to get out of the shot while ultimately the first photographer is waiting in vain for the devil to get out of the shot".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108938\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks.
Sort of like the "bridge overlook" at Zion...
Regards,
Rich
Rockettraveler
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Just in case it makes a difference, about 40-50 miles away in the Silver Peak basin are large, great sand dunes that hardly anyone goes to except some locals on the weekend to 4 wheel on. The back road from Lida to Silver Peak has some great shots but it's rough on tires.
In the winter I drove over the pass from Silver Peak, (roads not on any maps), over to Fish Lake valley(the sump), A rather interesting eroded ,uplifted lake bed that can have some good shots as well as some Joshua trees in that area .
As great as Death Valley is, there are some quiet spots that hold there own quite well in that area.
Wyndham
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I can feel your frustration as it happened many times. I think the best time would be early morning or when nobody is there. Also always you could go little bit higher in other to get better composition.
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An example happened to a group of us on a rare kind of day in February. A photographer in a particularly bright outfit chose to dwell in a shot for at least 20 minutes, to the great frustration of serious photographers waiting for him to leave. I decided to make the shot anyway and choose later whether to clone the one person out, which is easier than a large group.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/bil...3-0839-w720.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/billb6/MP20070223-0839-w720.jpg)
A figure adds scale. A crowd detracts. I'm not sure about this one. I'll probably end up cloning the dolt out.
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Was he there before you. I certainly agree to walk it's rude to somebody else's shot (although we've all probably done so unknowingly at least once, so a polite request may be all it takes to resolve the situation).
On the other hand I think the first one there has the right to set up where he/she wants, so for somebody else to come along later and complain as in grepmat's example seems unreasonable to me.
If I were there first I wouldn't feel obliged to move just because somebody was setting up behind me. I'd try to avoid lingering any longer than necessary, but I wouldn't allow myself to be rushed and risk not getting the shot I was there for.
And let's face it, if shooting digital sometimes there are simple solutions to these types of problems. Depending on where the person is it may be a simple matter to clone them out. I've also had occasions where I was shooting a scene that was never completely free of people as they steadily walked through the area, so I "bracketed" multiple shots to give myself the option of using layers/masks to produce an end-result without any people in it. (Some pedantic purists my feel this is cheating but I don't feel the least bit guilty about using such techniques).