Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: John Hollenberg on March 07, 2007, 06:11:13 pm
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In spite of reassurances from Canon about a new policy for defective ink cartridges (there are over 20 reports to the Wiki of such problems, apparently due to defective chips on the cartridges), there is a report today on the Wiki that Canon is up to their old tricks. The poster reported that he had a SECOND starter cartridge go bad, and that Canon refused to replace the cartridge because the cartridges are only guaranteed for 30 days. He has had the printer for 2.5 months, so was told it isn't covered.
Buyer beware! Canon is apparently shooting themselves in the foot again, after some encouraging signs that they really DID want to break into the market owned by Epson.
--John
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That is very unfortunate. I was considering buying the ipf5000 or its 24” sibling if it ever arrives, but reading about Canon’s poor customer support has made me very leery about purchasing a printer from them. I never thought it would be this hard to buy a printer. They all seem to have many problems. Perhaps, I should just keep my old Epson 3000.
David
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Has Canon actually addressed the firmware and documentation problems that surfaced within the first days of this printer's release on the market umpteen months ago?
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Has Canon actually addressed the firmware and documentation problems that surfaced within the first days of this printer's release on the market umpteen months ago?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Firmware yes.
Documentation no.
Due to the worsening support for defective ink cartridges, the Wiki now recommends against purchasing this printer--unless Canon changes their support policy. They are alienating even the small but loyal user base. Wonder who is in charge of their "marketing" department.
--John
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John, does this mean that there are now no problems in paper selection and other instructions between the computer inter-face and the printer, and that one can set the instructions to print from the computer interface as easily and flawlessly as say one can do with the Epson Driver and Photoshop Print with Preview on a 4800 in Windows XP?
The lack of proper documentation still makes it a non-starter for me. I don't have the patience to wade through and decipher the crap they have produced in html.
As for their customer relations - it's Canon. They've produced technologically pathbreaking and very high quality stuff, but their PR and their service to anyone except registered professionals are simply dreadful, so no surprises here.
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Mark,
The best way to see the exact state of the Canon IPF5000 is to visit the Wiki:
http://www.canonipf5000.wikispaces.com (http://www.canonipf5000.wikispaces.com)
Click on the Known Problems Link on the left and you will be taken to a list of all of the known problems. There aren't any specific problems with paper selection, but the system is definitely a bit confusing at first. I don't find that to be a major problem, but this lack of support for defective products is the last straw. I will continue to use my IPF5000, but won't recommend it to others at this time.
Regarding the gamut, it is about equal in size to Epson Ultrachrome K3, but I have come to a tentative conclusion that the gamut of the Epson is often more useful. This is in looking at softproofs for a number of my real world landscape images, and is particularly evident in some of the saturated bright yellows, and to a lesser extent in some of the warmer colors. There is a whole raft of blues/purples that the IPF5000 can print that the Epson can't, but I haven't run into many of them yet in MY images.
--John
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John, I clicked on that link and a notice came up saying the Wiki space cannot be found. Do you know if its been abandoned or redefined?
If the system is still confusing and the documentation is still poor, for me it remains a non-starter regardless of their support policy - though I must say this is unfortunate, because I've seen it at work and seen alot of output - it is a real production machine and produces gorgeous prints.
If Canon were to get its act together in respect of usability, documentation and customer support, it would probably be the top pick for all except those in the z3100 echelon of the market. Their insularity and disregard is costing them, which is a shame for both them and us.
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Mark,
Try http://canonipf5000.wikispaces.com/ (http://canonipf5000.wikispaces.com/)
Rich
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Mark,
Try http://canonipf5000.wikispaces.com/ (http://canonipf5000.wikispaces.com/)
Rich
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105405\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah, sorry about the bad link. Guess it has been a long day.
--John
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Thanks Guys it worked. This is a great public service John - and has reinforced my view that buying one of these would be a premature decision. I'm thinking about the strategy of complementing my Epson 4800 which now has matte black ink with an HP B9180 for doing the non-matte work. Any thoughts on that strategy?
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Thanks Guys it worked. This is a great public service John - and has reinforced my view that buying one of these would be a premature decision. I'm thinking about the strategy of complementing my Epson 4800 which now has matte black ink with an HP B9180 for doing the non-matte work. Any thoughts on that strategy?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105407\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't have a lot of experience with HP printers, except for the Designjet 130 I have. The main problems with that printer are: limited gamut compared to Epson K3 printers, poor construction, firmware that had bugs in it which were never fixed, poor roll feed design, and worst of all drivers which produced off-color shadows in many cases.
At this point, I would probably recommend to stay with the company with the mature, proven technology--which means the Epson 3800. From reports I have seen on DP Review, it appears that clogging problems are much less than with previous Epson printers. Of course, your experience may be different. I just haven't seen that many reports of problems with these printers, and Epson has been in this business for a long time. They have worked out most of the kinks in their product, with the possible exception of clogging. The one thing I would miss if I had the 3800 is the roll support. I have become rather fond of printing on rolls on my IPF5000.
If you can wait, I will be interested to see the successor to the 4800. Don't know how soon it might be coming, but if they fix some of the flaws in the 4800 design it could be a real Canon killer.
Just my thoughts.
--John
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I'd seen a note on the Wiki that Fred Drury had found someone to talk to at Canon, & they might start listening to consumers.
But this cartridge thing really @#$%&* me off. Given the inaccuracy of this printer in indicating how much ink is left - it lets you know only in 20% increments, whereas Epson's Status Monitor starts listing 1% increments as the ink goes down - I've had to order a full set of spare cartridges for over $800, to be sure I don't run out (again). This means that many cartridges may run out of warranty before I get a chance to use them.
Canon should just fire their customer service operation & start over again. Or maybe it's just too late. I love the prints I'm making, but can't recommend the printer to anyone else.
Kirk
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I'd seen a note on the Wiki that Fred Drury had found someone to talk to at Canon, & they might start listening to consumers.
Kirk
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105420\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hell will freeze over.................
How much of your own money are you prepared to put on that possibility?
It's a whole corporate culture you're dealing with, not just the IPF5000.
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I don't have a lot of experience with HP printers, except for the Designjet 130 I have. The main problems with that printer are: limited gamut compared to Epson K3 printers, poor construction, firmware that had bugs in it which were never fixed, poor roll feed design, and worst of all drivers which produced off-color shadows in many cases.
At this point, I would probably recommend to stay with the company with the mature, proven technology--which means the Epson 3800. From reports I have seen on DP Review, it appears that clogging problems are much less than with previous Epson printers. Of course, your experience may be different. I just haven't seen that many reports of problems with these printers, and Epson has been in this business for a long time. They have worked out most of the kinks in their product, with the possible exception of clogging. The one thing I would miss if I had the 3800 is the roll support. I have become rather fond of printing on rolls on my IPF5000.
If you can wait, I will be interested to see the successor to the 4800. Don't know how soon it might be coming, but if they fix some of the flaws in the 4800 design it could be a real Canon killer.
Just my thoughts.
--John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105410\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
John,
Most of this makes a lot sense. Some added observations:
My 4800 has had far less clogging than the 4000. When it did start to clog, I got the machine serviced - they found the capping mechanism was faulty. Since they fixed it, five months and 800 prints have gone by, sometimes intervals of weeks, and NO clogging. I expect the 3800 would be at least as good. But the 4800 does consume a lot of ink for routine cleaning cycles - over the last 5 months about 23% of total ink is consumed in start-up cleans. I measure this rigorously.
The 3800 produces gorgeous prints in less time than the 4800, but the external build quality of the unit is dreadful. Destructive testing is unfortunately very easy to implement. However, I am prepared to believe the core print engine is probably quite robust - but it does not have the rated throughput of a 4800. Still for all but the most intensive working, probably OK.
There is no noise about a 4800 replacement. For me, all they need to do is solve the ink swapping silliness in a machine that is otherwise a 4800, and I'd stick with Epson.
The HP Designjet130 I think is not a good predictor for the more recent models. I think they've learned alot from that experience, and HP on the whole manufactures quite a bit of solid equipment.
I like your idea of waiting, because that is exactly what I am doing. No panic, and I just feel there are still better things to come within this year or next.
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...The HP Designjet130 I think is not a good predictor for the more recent models....
Too bad really. Mine works splendidly with nary a problem (knock on wood). Makes beautiful prints too.
The new 24" printers are 3x the price, loaded with problems and only marginally better print quality. Hard to see that as progress.
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If your Designjet 13o is working fine and doing what you need from it that's great, but it simply isn't in the same technological league with the new Z series - and let us not exaggerate - they may have a couple of issues (which will get fixed), but they are not "loaded with problems".
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Just the opposite with Canon service and the shop that sold it to me, with my problems on the 5000, they came to my house and loaded new firmwear and I haven't had any feed problems since..
I also find their service at CPS great, a few people in the photo trade here in Australia that could learn from them..
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But the 4800 does consume a lot of ink for routine cleaning cycles - over the last 5 months about 23% of total ink is consumed in start-up cleans. I measure this rigorously.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105450\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Holy #%@!! I had no idea I was pouring that much ink down the drain. I recently replaced my "maintenance tank" and was appalled at how heavy it had become. These printers, while capable of producing some fine images, are very efficient money pumps - out of our wallets and in to Epson's. I'm still seriously considering changing to MIS clone inks. They offer a CFS now that they say has no chip reset issues. Ink prices drop by three quarters.
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Just the opposite with Canon service and the shop that sold it to me, with my problems on the 5000, they came to my house and loaded new firmwear and I haven't had any feed problems since..
I also find their service at CPS great, a few people in the photo trade here in Australia that could learn from them..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105782\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sure, if you are CPS it's fine. It's for the rest of the world of mere mortals that it's anything but - my experience dealing with them.
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I'm still seriously considering changing to MIS clone inks. They offer a CFS now that they say has no chip reset issues. Ink prices drop by three quarters.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105828\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Harald Johnson has a good discussion of this option in "Mastering Digital Printing Second Edition" pages 218~223. You may wish to consult it. He has an italicized cautionary disclaimer notifying readers about the risks of course. If you go this route, or know others who have consistently positive experience doing so, it would be good to learn of it.
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Just the opposite with Canon service and the shop that sold it to me, with my problems on the 5000, they came to my house and loaded new firmwear and I haven't had any feed problems since..
I also find their service at CPS great, a few people in the photo trade here in Australia that could learn from them..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105782\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
David, who are CPS? I presume you're in Sydney. I'm planning to purchase the 5000 in Melbourne, do you have any advice in hindsight?
Regards, Bob.
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Due to the worsening support for defective ink cartridges, the Wiki now recommends against purchasing this printer--unless Canon changes their support policy.
Ouch! My new 5000 is here and just waiting to be unpacked! Maybe the 3800 was a better idea. Lighter anway!
Peter
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Due to the worsening support for defective ink cartridges, the Wiki now recommends against purchasing this printer--unless Canon changes their support policy.
Ouch! My new 5000 is here and just waiting to be unpacked! Maybe the 3800 was a better idea. Lighter anway!
Peter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm quite sure that you will be happy with ipf5000 after a while and after you get to learn all the quirks... forget reading a manual, go to wiki FAQs and save it as pdf or print it.
Only reason why wiki is not recommending ipf is because of reinforced ink policy, hopefully that will get canon attention since one month is totally unacceptable
Based on image/print quality I would rate ipf as highly recommended
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Only reason why wiki is not recommending ipf is because of reinforced ink policy, hopefully that will get canon attention since one month is totally unacceptable
100% correct. While there have been quite a few teething problems for the IPF5000, the image quality is superb. In regards to every other problem, many have workarounds and Canon is presumably planning to fix the reported software bugs.
The recommendation regards specifically Canon's refusal to offer a reasonable warranty for ink cartridges, coupled with the multiple reports of ink cartridge failures at what appears to be an abnormally high rate. If Canon changes their policy and fully stands behind their products, the Wiki recommendation will change as well.
A secondary concern is that the two printheads ($600 each list price) are also covered for only 30 days by the warranty. If problems develop (and it is still much too early to see if they will), your new printer could basically become a paperweight. If Canon has no more confidence in their products than this, why should the Wiki be confident in their products--especially given the documented problems with software, firmware, and knowledgeable and timely support.
Just today, we have received another report from a poster that has a banding problem. Canon support has been out to try to fix the printer FIVE TIMES. The printer is basically DOA, and the poster reports that after two months he still isn't able to use his printer. Assuming this is a legitimate report (and I have no reason to doubt that it is) this is certainly a damning indictment of Canon's tech support system and policies. It certainly dovetails with the experience of Jim H WY, the longtime poster who discovered the fix to "Banding in the trailing inch of prints from the Cassette." which Canon had no clue about. He had to wait for weeks to get his printer fixed since the parts (which ended up not being needed anyway) were "backordered".
http://www.canonipf5000.wikispaces.com (http://www.canonipf5000.wikispaces.com)
--John
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Sure, if you are CPS it's fine. It's for the rest of the world of mere mortals that it's anything but - my experience dealing with them.
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Are you a Canon useser ?
Can you join CPS where you are ?
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Are you a Canon useser ?
Can you join CPS where you are ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105932\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, I am a Canon user, and I live in Toronto Canada. They will not let me join CPS because I am not an accredited professional photographer, eventhough I use only professional equipment (theirs and other stuff) from A to Z.
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David, who are CPS? I presume you're in Sydney. I'm planning to purchase the 5000 in Melbourne, do you have any advice in hindsight?
Regards, Bob.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My advice would be don't jump in early with new stuff from anyone , if you're just getting one now you should be avoiding all the teething pain, fingers crossed.
The other thing I would say is go to a dealer with good staff, not a discount box shifter, the two shops I haunt in Sydney are L&P photographics and Baltronics because they're both good at problem solving and don't stop taking my calls when things go pear shaped.
I got the printer from a dealer ( Baltronics ) who are trained by Canon, but more to the point have a couple people on staff ( Selina and David ) who know what their talking about and have helped me ( not a geek ) no end with everything from paper selection to custom profiles..
Happy printing..
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You asked who are CPS - CPS is Canon Professional Services. This is Canon's way of dissecting their service obligation into two tiers, one for certified professionals who get excellent service, and the other for everyone else who don't.
I can tell you, regardless of how great the prints are once it works, unless they've really addressed ALL the big ticket issues, I wouldn't buy an IPF5000 unless I wrote my own warranty and had it certified by the President of the Company (which wouldn't happen of course until hell freezes over).
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My advice would be don't jump in early with new stuff from anyone , if you're just getting one now you should be avoiding all the teething pain, fingers crossed.
The other thing I would say is go to a dealer with good staff, not a discount box shifter, the two shops I haunt in Sydney are L&P photographics and Baltronics because they're both good at problem solving and don't stop taking my calls when things go pear shaped.
I got the printer from a dealer ( Baltronics ) who are trained by Canon, but more to the point have a couple people on staff ( Selina and David ) who know what their talking about and have helped me ( not a geek ) no end with everything from paper selection to custom profiles..
Happy printing..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105934\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks David. Yes, I have a quote from Designwyse ( www.designwyse.com.au ) in Melbourne which includes delivery, installation and calibration out here in East Gippsland (5 hours drive from Melbourne). They appear to be a very professional organisation, happy for me to visit and have some prints made of my own images before deciding. I will definitley be asking about the problems raised on this site and others.
Cheers,
Bob.
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You asked who are CPS - CPS is Canon Professional Services. This is Canon's way of dissecting their service obligation into two tiers, one for certified professionals who get excellent service, and the other for everyone else who don't.
I can tell you, regardless of how great the prints are once it works, unless they've really addressed ALL the big ticket issues, I wouldn't buy an IPF5000 unless I wrote my own warranty and had it certified by the President of the Company (which wouldn't happen of course until hell freezes over).
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Thanks Mark, I thought they must have been a dealer or some such.
Bob.
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By contrast, I have had great support from Epson over the years. I have had a 7500 / 7600 / and now a 7800. When I did have problems with the original 7500 they sent out a tech for free and then shipped me a new printer. On going on-line or phone support has been good over the years.
I am a big Canon user but Epson has never given me much of a reason to ever change printer loyalties.
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Service the right way...
Last week I had a problem on client's Lexmark $1600 dot matrix printer. A big heavy beasty with less than 30 days to go on the 1 year warranty. It was printing some lines lighter then darker on the same line. I called Lexmark support and after being asked what the problem was and explaining it as above the lady put me on hold for about a minute, came back on the line and said they would be shipping me a new printer in three days and was there anything else they could do for me? I nearly fell off my chair. A NEW printer arrived in two days with a UPS return shipping label for shipping the old one back on their dime. Thats service! If only other companies could do half as well...
Thanks!
Philip
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My sincere thanks to all those you have suffered with the IPF5000 and shared their pain. I have waited as long as I can for a wide format printer. HP is getting my money. So very strange that Canon's printer division is differenet in their customer service approach from their camera division. Almost like two seperate companies.
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My sincere thanks to all those you have suffered with the IPF5000 and shared their pain. I have waited as long as I can for a wide format printer. HP is getting my money. So very strange that Canon's printer division is differenet in their customer service approach from their camera division. Almost like two seperate companies.
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What makes you think their camera service is any better? From the exposure I've had to it, not being a member of "CPS" I'm thoroughly unimpressed.
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Actually the one time I sent my 1DS II to get the shutter replaced using the label enclosed with the body the service was very quick and effective. Hopefully I won't need to send it again, as I'm fresh out of gratuitous Expedited Service labels .