Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: tomob on March 06, 2007, 05:40:03 pm
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Hi there,
as I said in my December post, when I bought my H3D-22 I immediately experienced problems with the camera. Usually I would receive the error mesages like: restart the back, reattach lens, lens problems...) after just few exposures. It was almost impossible to work, while I was never sure if I'll take the next exposure. After we made clear that the problem is not the lens, dealer sent my camera back to the Hasselblad. My local dealer was very nice and gave me H1 with older Imacon back with image tank (132 I think) so I could work while waiting for my camera. I have to say that with that camera I did 6 shooting days and just ones received an error massage like (something is wrong with digital back communication), but everything worked fine.
So, after 2 weeks I received my H3D back, put it together, made 5 exposures...and received the same error messages again.
Called the dealer and explained everything to him. In the end they said they sent new H3D. I received it 2 weeks ago and went on a trip. So I really haven't used it a lot. The new camera works quite well, the sound is different, and all feels more solid, but as said I just did few home snapshots. I had had a shoot 3 days and it was hard for me to to believe, but... I received the error message again "Restart the back", the only way to keep working was to put off the battery on the camera and than it worked until the next error mesages. I can achieve that stadium almost whenever after ca. 50 exposures.
I have to say I'm a little desperate. Would like to hear your opinion. Tomorrow I'm going to call the dealer, it's going to be funny, thats sure.
Best,
Tomo
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That must be very frustrating. I have heard of similar problems with the H1 and H2 bodies. Good luck in getting it resolved.
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Hi Tomo,
What version of FlexColor are you using?
New version 467 just released which has a new firmware as well.
Made everything much zippier (capture rate) and improved the menu response.
What CF cards are you using? Do you format them before use in camera?
Jo S. x
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Hi, Jo and Graham,
I got my new H3D 2 weeks ago, it has 4.6.6. FlexColor, Digital capture firmware 190 and body firmware 1.0.0. Also I received the new prism viewfinder HVD 90X. My previous H3D came with a standard full format prism, without the notice. It felt really ignorant.
No, I haven't downloaded the 4.6.7. jet. Will definitely try, perhaps this might be the case. I'm using the extreme III Sundisc cf cards and I always format them on the camera.
Many thanks,
Tomo
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Hi, Jo and Graham,
I got my new H3D 2 weeks ago, it has 4.6.6. FlexColor, Digital capture firmware 190 and body firmware 1.0.0. Also I received the new prism viewfinder HVD 90X. My previous H3D came with a standard full format prism, without the notice. It felt really ignorant.
No, I haven't downloaded the 4.6.7. jet. Will definitely try, perhaps this might be the case. I'm using the extreme III Sundisc cf cards and I always format them on the camera.
Many thanks,
Tomo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105099\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
466 was never really officially released as my dealer wouldn't let me have it as they had found some bugs!
So he made me wait until 467 which has firmware 196.
I think you shoudl try that before anything else.
Also you should try a Sandisc Extreme IV card - really makes a difference!
Jo Sx
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Some guy over on Photo.net bought an H3D in January, had problems some of which were similar to yours, mostly error messages and lockups. He returned the camera and Hasselblad offered him a free 28mm lens wf he would stick with the system. He thanked them and is now demo-ing a Leaf and a Phase.
When will it all end?
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So i thought one reason for the closed system was to avoid all these incompatibility bugs and error messages. Truthfully with my leaf and hassy h2 I rarely get an error message. I had a problem early on but the leaf folks replaced a bad circuit board. Mar k
Some guy over on Photo.net bought an H3D in January, had problems some of which were similar to yours, mostly error messages and lockups. He returned the camera and Hasselblad offered him a free 28mm lens wf he would stick with the system. He thanked them and is now demo-ing a Leaf and a Phase.
When will it all end?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105125\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I hate to kick a man when he is down but really cannot see the the point in papering over the cracks of a bad job. I reported some problems i encountered as well as a catalogue of problems from two friends in similar situations as yourself. I know there are plenty of photographers who will swear blind they have had no problems with there H1/H2/H3 cameras with Imacon backs but i find it incomprehensible that so many problems are encountered.
In 18 months of use with a P20 i have had ZERO problems with either hardware or software, not one sign of a glitch. Call me lucky but ask how many other Phase users have a similar story, i bet it's most of them. Ask how many Imacon/'H' users have had multiple problems and i bet it's most of them.
I really hope you get it sorted, considering the money you have invested you deserve better.
Regards, Gary.
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I hate to kick a man when he is down but really cannot see the the point in papering over the cracks of a bad job. I reported some problems i encountered as well as a catalogue of problems from two friends in similar situations as yourself. I know there are plenty of photographers who will swear blind they have had no problems with there H1/H2/H3 cameras with Imacon backs but i find it incomprehensible that so many problems are encountered.
In 18 months of use with a P20 i have had ZERO problems with either hardware or software, not one sign of a glitch. Call me lucky but ask how many other Phase users have a similar story, i bet it's most of them. Ask how many Imacon/'H' users have had multiple problems and i bet it's most of them.
I really hope you get it sorted, considering the money you have invested you deserve better.
Regards, Gary.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105133\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think unless you use a Hasselblad / Imacon / H3D etc combo daily it is pointless to make a sweeping statement like that.
Jo S.x
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Could also be just new technology. As early 'tester' for Leica M8 can appreciate issues. Even my DMR 'froze' and needed some reinsertion battery etc to clear errors. All fine in end. Same with H3D is assume.
BUT, I must say, I have also had four different P25 and P45 backs over three years period and have NO issues on workings of backs. Put on cameras (and I change a lot since I use Contax film backs too) and they work. Phase backs just seem tough. In many such threads on Phase H3D or leaf or Inicom etc never hear anyone say a Phase back did not work.
Regards
Victor
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I think unless you use a Hasselblad / Imacon / H3D etc combo daily it is pointless to make a sweeping statement like that.
Jo S.x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105164\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agreed!! my experience without re writing an earlier post is that i had four demonstrations of 'different variations' of both Imacon and Leaf backs onto H1/H2 and all the demostrations had glitches, 2 had to be abandoned. The 'everyday' experiences i can talk about is with two very good friends both of which use an 'H' and Imacon. I could not possibly detail the extensive back catalogue of problems both of them have experienced over a 2 year period. Both of them have mentioned many times that they would jump ship in a heartbeat to a 'Phase' if they could without junking it all and starting again, and preferrably not on an 'H' although they are not sure what as the choices are limited, however one of them is now looking very seriously at the Phase.
Being a Hassy 'V' user of the last 25 years, also on the P20 Phase for last 18 months, i should have naturally moved over to the 'H' for the P30+ i have just ordered, however i am going to use the Contax even in its dying state, and have every confidence that the combo will be rock solid.
Regards, Gary.
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Being a Hassy 'V' user of the last 25 years, also on the P20 Phase for last 18 months, i should have naturally moved over to the 'H' for the P30+ i have just ordered, however i am going to use the Contax even in its dying state, and have every confidence that the combo will be rock solid.
Regards, Gary.
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Dear Gary
Yes, I went Contax and stayed many years when first came out (but really pretty new stuff to me! )
I use new 40mm IF, and older 30mm fisheye, and ESP the 180mm hasselblads on my contax. Even venerable 500/8 for wildlife!
Just set aperture, use manual, and rotate speed and watch exposure needle. Works great and can under-over expose per shot!
Must do stopped down of course. But easy to focus full open, stop down, capture (don't try for Indy 500 though! :-)
Also, get focus confirmation with that nice little circle. Having been MF, MF for many years (now 64) I almost find AF on Contax a bother, though the 80mm is an amazing walk around lens.
The Contax, 80mm P45 is a little heavy but wonderfully stable (even 1/15) and smaller in my hand than typical bulky (read CaNikodak size SLRs)
I have talken on many treks in mountains.
'Sounds you enjoy this combination as I do.
Regards
Victor
PS: Contax not dying- just getting old gracefully! :-)
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I think unless you use a Hasselblad / Imacon / H3D etc combo daily it is pointless to make a sweeping statement like that.
Jo S.x
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everytime i have used an H camera i received errors...take the battery off, put it back on..go until it happens again.....everybody i have talked to about this confirms it....i haven't had any lenses falling apart, but i never used the cameras long enough....just long enough to get several errors a day...very annoying while shooting adn scary at first....after that just annoying....
i have used and owned leaf and phase backs along with rollei, mamiya (645 and RZ) and hassV cameras..no problems at all......phase is the king anyway.....do a poll on if anyone even had had a problem with any of their backs.....
like james always says go with what works....not the bleeding edge....
just read michaels report on the leicas.....what a joke....for that price....if that happened with a rebel, it would make sense.....but it does not.....and i guess one of his hass lenses stopped working again? money well spent...
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These issues are not unique to Hasselblad cameras and backs, and, if anything, serve as graphic evidence of why a fully integrated solution like the Sinar Hy6 and the H3D where one company puts the pieces together and is responsible for the integration is so desirable. Will it eliminate camera/back communication issues? No, but it should be more likely to minimize them.
BTW, it appears that not everyone finds Phase backs so rock solid and stable. http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....20&#entry105299 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14503&pid=105299&st=20&#entry105299)
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These issues are not unique to Hasselblad cameras and backs, and, if anything, serve as graphic evidence of why a fully integrated solution like the Sinar Hy6 and the H3D where one company puts the pieces together and is responsible for the integration is so desirable. Will it eliminate camera/back communication issues? No, but it should be more likely to minimize them.
BTW, it appears that not everyone finds Phase backs so rock solid and stable. http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....20&#entry105299 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14503&pid=105299&st=20&#entry105299)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105309\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
not sure what you are reading...these statements show that there seem to be MORE problems with integrated solutions then separate body/back solutions....and since the Hass is the only solution out there now it is the only one with problems....the Hy6 won't be as integrated as the H3D, it will simply have limited options in which backs to use (from factory) there will always be 2 batteries......nobody is asking for a 100% solution (actually we are, but that is not realistic) but this is a long way off....when i rent an H system, the first thing they show me is the battery "trick" when the camera locks up.....now we are to the third incarnation of the body, now with the battery obviously reworked to support the back as well and this is still not figured out? this is graphic evidence?
i also read the thread you linked to ..the only problem i found in there was "pre-sale problems with phase"...i would hardly put that in the same category as anything described in this thread alone....
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I downloaded the FlexColor 4.6.7. and new digital capture firmware 196. Did few exposures, everything seems fine at the moment. But will see in the end of the week when I'll be on a shoot. But I have to admit it's quite frustrating to hear such stories. Besides I don't know what to do if this errors will appear again, I mean the camera is just 2 weeks old, one just thinks what will happen in 2 years. What strategy should I use with the dealer, who was all the time very reasonable and helpful.
So, disappointed. But hope all will be fine with new firmware.
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Thanks for the warning...I wasnt planning to buy a Hassle but now am sure I won't.
My Arca Swiss 4x5 is totally reliable; no electronics, battery, firmware, etc. And I get MFDB quality with a drum scan.
And no it didn't cost as much as a new car.
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I downloaded the FlexColor 4.6.7. and new digital capture firmware 196. Did few exposures, everything seems fine at the moment. But will see in the end of the week when I'll be on a shoot. But I have to admit it's quite frustrating to hear such stories. Besides I don't know what to do if this errors will appear again, I mean the camera is just 2 weeks old, one just thinks what will happen in 2 years. What strategy should I use with the dealer, who was all the time very reasonable and helpful.
So, disappointed. But hope all will be fine with new firmware.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105327\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey Tomo,
Just give it time. Its a fantastic system and I am sure you will enjoy creating images as I have done.
Remember that bad news travels faster than good!
Jo Sx
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Thanks for the warning...I wasnt planning to buy a Hassle but now am sure I won't.
My Arca Swiss 4x5 is totally reliable; no electronics, battery, firmware, etc. And I get MFDB quality with a drum scan.
And no it didn't cost as much as a new car.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105346\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Doug...
You should test it yourself and make your own assumptions, as with any digital system!
Jo S.x
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Thanks for the warning...I wasnt planning to buy a Hassle but now am sure I won't.
My Arca Swiss 4x5 is totally reliable; no electronics, battery, firmware, etc. And I get MFDB quality with a drum scan.
And no it didn't cost as much as a new car.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105346\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So what is your point? You shoot film?
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Thanks for the warning...I wasnt planning to buy a Hassle but now am sure I won't.
My Arca Swiss 4x5 is totally reliable; no electronics, battery, firmware, etc. And I get MFDB quality with a drum scan.
And no it didn't cost as much as a new car.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105346\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
you are lucky to have the luxury of shooting film. all my clients want to select shots on the day of the shoot, and get high res to the retouchers the next day.
film isnt reliable, easy to make mistakes, labs can stuff up. digital is reliable in that you know you have a problem when you have the problem, so its able to be solved.
just about every agency is asking for digital, and the cost shouldnt be a problem, just charge the expenses to the client.
paul
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everytime i have used an H camera i received errors...take the battery off, put it back on..go until it happens again.....everybody i have talked to about this confirms it....i haven't had any lenses falling apart, but i never used the cameras long enough....just long enough to get several errors a day...very annoying while shooting adn scary at first....after that just annoying....
i have used and owned leaf and phase backs along with rollei, mamiya (645 and RZ) and hassV cameras..no problems at all......phase is the king anyway.....do a poll on if anyone even had had a problem with any of their backs.....
like james always says go with what works....not the bleeding edge....
just read michaels report on the leicas.....what a joke....for that price....if that happened with a rebel, it would make sense.....but it does not.....and i guess one of his hass lenses stopped working again? money well spent...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105281\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm sorry but this is another stupid statement...
Everybody I have talked to about this confirms it...???
Well you didn't talk to me obviously... or listen to what other happy Imacon / Hasselblad users have said even on this forum - hcubell for one.
Phase, Leaf, Sinar, Imacon, Hasselblad... have all had their fair share of problems. If all the manufacturers apart from Phase are so terrible then why are they successful companies still in business?
Sinar, Leaf and Hasselblad all have huge wealthy experienced companies behind them. Would they be so thick to invest in dead ducks with rubbish products nobody buys?
I am sure Yaya, Thierry will concur.
If you don't like Hasselblad - that ok - just flaming it at every opportunity is boring me.
Jo S. x
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I'm sorry but this is another stupid statement...
Everybody I have talked to about this confirms it...???
Well you didn't talk to me obviously... or listen to what other happy Imacon / Hasselblad users have said even on this forum - hcubell for one.
Phase, Leaf, Sinar, Imacon, Hasselblad... have all had their fair share of problems. If all the manufacturers apart from Phase are so terrible then why are they successful companies still in business?
Sinar, Leaf and Hasselblad all have huge wealthy experienced companies behind them. Would they be so thick to invest in dead ducks with rubbish products nobody buys?
I am sure Yaya, Thierry will concur.
If you don't like Hasselblad - that ok - just flaming it at every opportunity is boring me.
Jo S. x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105463\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
JosX,
I think we are all succepable to this. Somebody reports a problem and it is assumed that all of that brand have the same problem.
Given this, I probably pass through about 50 crew members a year, around the world and if any camera conversations come up, almost to a person, everyone mentions jams on the H system and everyone knows the pull the battery trick if you shoot non tethered.
Nothing is a buzz kill like a jammed camera, film, or digital, medium format or dslr and I've seen them all Jam except the original 1ds and the P-30.
When I moved to medium format with the Valeo then the Aptus I also suffered jams on the Contax, to the point I just assumed all non tetherred medium format jammed. In fact it happened so often that I build a portable powerbook system and just shot everything tethered.
When I added the P-30 I actually was waiting for the same problems but after nearly 20,000 frames I've not had a single jam or had to pull the battery once.
Does that mean all P-30's on a Contax are error free? Who knows, but it doesn't erase the fact that the H series does not have the most steller reputation "on the street".
If anything I think my lack of issues with the Contax is because it's a dead system. No changing firmware for lenses or body doesn't require the db makers to continually try to write new firmware to keep up.
JR
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my own experience from last Sunday: I wish to give my experience, being a "Sinar" guy, I won't be suspected of not telling the truth.
I was out with 2 friends, one with his Canon and the other with his brand new H3D, and myself with my eMotion 75. We went all the 3 out for some fun shooting, purely for our plaisure, in Bangkok.
My friend with his H3D did not have or mention any jam on his camera, although he told me that he had 2 or 3 jams and had to re-start the system when he took it out of the box, at the begining.
But to be honest and fair, nothing of that happen during our shooting day together.
Best regards,
theirry
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Unfortunately this site appears to have more than it's fair share of insecure people who need to resort to trashing brands they didn't choose in what appears to be an attempt to gratify their egos as they reinforce their own choice/preference.
As far as I'm concerned ALL these MF backs do an outstanding job, all have their share of issues off and on, but there is no "wrong" choice, just personal preference, workflow, and shooting style. The MF backs being discussed here are ALL good tools for making images. Period!
I'm all for constructive criticism of a product, but broad reaching, blanket statements just reflect bitterness and personal agenda rather than helpful information. At times, you'd think this site is full of commission based salesmen (no, I'm not talking about Thierry or Yaya who I think are rather brave for exposing themselves to some of this nonsense) rather than photographers.
I'm sorry but this is another stupid statement...
Everybody I have talked to about this confirms it...???
Well you didn't talk to me obviously... or listen to what other happy Imacon / Hasselblad users have said even on this forum - hcubell for one.
Phase, Leaf, Sinar, Imacon, Hasselblad... have all had their fair share of problems. If all the manufacturers apart from Phase are so terrible then why are they successful companies still in business?
Sinar, Leaf and Hasselblad all have huge wealthy experienced companies behind them. Would they be so thick to invest in dead ducks with rubbish products nobody buys?
I am sure Yaya, Thierry will concur.
If you don't like Hasselblad - that ok - just flaming it at every opportunity is boring me.
Jo S. x
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Hi, all
it's quite frustrating to hear such stories about todays Hasselblad. In film days, I briefly owned elm. It was a very nice camera but I was emotionally connected with my Pentaxes 67 and intuitively stayed with RZ as my main "assignment" camera, which was/still is truly remarkable camera. My first digital experience was 1DsMk2, I had it for a year and had newer experienced a single problem. But I have to say I was always unhappy with the feel, it was almost suffocating for me and I tried to use 5x4 simultaneously whenever possible.
After studying MDB filed I've decided to go for integrated system (because of the errors I heard appeared in mixed combos) and in the end bought H3D-22.
I like the camera and again I have a feeling as being at home (after 35mm digital).
As Jo and my dealer a day later suggested me I downloaded new FlexColor and firmware. And since than I haven't experienced any problems. Hope it will stay like this.
My initial question is still, how careful do I have to be? While It would really be stupid to get angry after 1 year warranty is over, because I was to polite to dealer and Hasselblad.
So the questions is, how many, or how often do you think those kind of locks up still can be tolerated.
Many thanks,
T
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I'm sorry but this is another stupid statement...
If you don't like Hasselblad - that ok - just flaming it at every opportunity is boring me.
Jo S. x
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It may be boring to you(and me), but for some it's a serious, part-time gig. When I see them coming, I hear this announcement in my head: "Time Out for a (Negative) Advertisement for Hasselblad."
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Guys if you get bored with all the negative statements about Hasselblad then don't read them !
If I had spent twenty thousand bucks or more on a camera and it kept jamming I'd be fed up too. I'm sure there are plenty of satisfied folks using Hasselblad gear but I don't think Hasselblad do themselves any favours in the PR game by their attitude towards their customers. I'm still waiting, after thirteen months, for a demo of their H system at my premises. Just last week I found out why this has not happened, they sacked all their reps !
If they've got a reputation for their H series cameras I reckon they've only got themselves to blame.
Pete
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You have just proved my previous posting. Whether fact or fiction, this part of your post is truly irresponsible for obvious reasons, and destroys any credibility you might have, at least with me.
Talk about a rumor mill....
Just last week I found out why this has not happened, they sacked all their reps !
Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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JosX,
I think we are all succepable to this. Somebody reports a problem and it is assumed that all of that brand have the same problem.
Given this, I probably pass through about 50 crew members a year, around the world and if any camera conversations come up, almost to a person, everyone mentions jams on the H system and everyone knows the pull the battery trick if you shoot non tethered.
Nothing is a buzz kill like a jammed camera, film, or digital, medium format or dslr and I've seen them all Jam except the original 1ds and the P-30.
When I moved to medium format with the Valeo then the Aptus I also suffered jams on the Contax, to the point I just assumed all non tetherred medium format jammed. In fact it happened so often that I build a portable powerbook system and just shot everything tethered.
When I added the P-30 I actually was waiting for the same problems but after nearly 20,000 frames I've not had a single jam or had to pull the battery once.
Does that mean all P-30's on a Contax are error free? Who knows, but it doesn't erase the fact that the H series does not have the most steller reputation "on the street".
If anything I think my lack of issues with the Contax is because it's a dead system. No changing firmware for lenses or body doesn't require the db makers to continually try to write new firmware to keep up.
JR
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Hi James,
I think you are entirely right.
I imagine also as the P30 is a natural progression of the P45 and P25 any of the early bugs (if there was any! I only had a short demo) would have been ironed out.
Also as a user of an H you certainly get the feeling it is more 'electronic' than the Contax and therefore could be susecptible to a windows-esqe lock up but I like the feel and handling of the H over the Contax. Just my opinion of course! The Contax is also a really well thought out system.
Suffice to say though since the end of Nov 2006 and I haven't had any lock ups and I consider it to be as stable as any other platform.
Thanks for the intelligent response.
Jo S.x
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I'm sorry but this is another stupid statement...
Everybody I have talked to about this confirms it...???
Well you didn't talk to me obviously... or listen to what other happy Imacon / Hasselblad users have said even on this forum - hcubell for one.
Phase, Leaf, Sinar, Imacon, Hasselblad... have all had their fair share of problems. If all the manufacturers apart from Phase are so terrible then why are they successful companies still in business?
Sinar, Leaf and Hasselblad all have huge wealthy experienced companies behind them. Would they be so thick to invest in dead ducks with rubbish products nobody buys?
I am sure Yaya, Thierry will concur.
If you don't like Hasselblad - that ok - just flaming it at every opportunity is boring me.
Jo S. x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105463\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ysoyeruk, whoever you are....
i am simply stating that everybody I KNOW personally with any experience with the hass H system has confirmed......and you have as well actually...that the H system has had problems with the battery....and it so seems it still does.....if one of the biggest rental houses in LA warns me about the problems i will be having when i rent an H?.......not sure in which way that is a stupid statement...james agrees with it and you say he is right, so why do you call me stupid?
i am the first one to agree (if you would read my posts you would know) that EVERY systems has pros and cons....i happen to use several different systems and backs and share my experiences....good or bad....it is not my fault that MY bad experiences are pretty much all centered around Hass products....
i don't LIKE or NOT LIKE any brand, i could not care less...what i care about is what works and what does not work for me...these are the experiences i share....i am glad you have different experiences with your hass equipment...if everybody had the same ones i had, hass would not be alive anymore.....
i would report on problems with my mamiyas, rollei, leaf, phase or canons but i don't have or had any problems with any of them....
i am not attacking you, so please don't make this personal...if you like you can contact me, have all my info for anyone to see (including email, addr and phone#) ....
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The reality of photography in the coming years with digital is that we will have to deal with some electronics and software issues.
We have the same problems with our Mac's and don't get me started on the problems you will have using a PC.
In the film days i had a Contax 645 and did like it. Although i did have a lot of shutter and electronics problems with my two bodies that were constantly going back to Contax for repair. i have talked to James about this and he has not had any problems with his. (GREAT FOR HIM). I love the quality of the lens but hated the polaroid back, the darkslide, the way it would eat through batteries and the darkness of the Prism. For me it didn't work as well.
I sold a huge Contax set up in winter of 05 and got a H1 system with a P25. I have shot a healthy amount of files and never had a problem with the Phase. The H1 had maybe two freezes in two years and it was more due to me using the battery to its limit. I would keep shooting while it gave me a battery warning and I would simply flip out the batteries. No problem after that.
I had an Aptus 75 and had too many problems with it. Tried a Hassy CF and although it was great it was too complicated for me with software, shims and plates. Never tried the Sinar so I can't speak of it and settled on the P45. I have not had one problem with the Phase backs, software or the H1 bodies. I keep informed on software updates to make sure I am up to date.
For people that live in far flung areas it makes it tough for software updates and Hasselblad should really make it available through some USB adapter plug to the H1/H2. Through the H3D I believe it is all through the back connection. But there are still a lot of us shooting H1/2 and will continue this and I feel abadoned by a company shooters have relied on for over 40 years.
I have not tried this but I hear the new plate to use the 645AFDII mounted Phase backs to the RZ works wonderfully. This seems like an ideal situation. You get a great new 645AFDII set up and a used RZ set and you have two great systems to use between.
I used RZ and Contax in the old days. So the AFD to RZ is not a huge jump. You have a better lens selection with the Contax especially with the Hassy FE lenses. But that is a choice you have to get into and make.
Best of luck.
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The reality of photography in the coming years with digital is that we will have to deal with some electronics and software issues.
We have the same problems with our Mac's and don't get me started on the problems you will have using a PC.
In the film days i had a Contax 645 and did like it. Although i did have a lot of shutter and electronics problems with my two bodies that were constantly going back to Contax for repair. i have talked to James about this and he has not had any problems with his. (GREAT FOR HIM). I love the quality of the lens but hated the polaroid back, the darkslide, the way it would eat through batteries and the darkness of the Prism. For me it didn't work as well.
I sold a huge Contax set up in winter of 05 and got a H1 system with a P25. I have shot a healthy amount of files and never had a problem with the Phase. The H1 had maybe two freezes in two years and it was more due to me using the battery to its limit. I would keep shooting while it gave me a battery warning and I would simply flip out the batteries. No problem after that.
I had an Aptus 75 and had too many problems with it. Tried a Hassy CF and although it was great it was too complicated for me with software, shims and plates. Never tried the Sinar so I can't speak of it and settled on the P45. I have not had one problem with the Phase backs, software or the H1 bodies. I keep informed on software updates to make sure I am up to date.
For people that live in far flung areas it makes it tough for software updates and Hasselblad should really make it available through some USB adapter plug to the H1/H2. Through the H3D I believe it is all through the back connection. But there are still a lot of us shooting H1/2 and will continue this and I feel abadoned by a company shooters have relied on for over 40 years.
I have not tried this but I hear the new plate to use the 645AFDII mounted Phase backs to the RZ works wonderfully. This seems like an ideal situation. You get a great new 645AFDII set up and a used RZ set and you have two great systems to use between.
I used RZ and Contax in the old days. So the AFD to RZ is not a huge jump. You have a better lens selection with the Contax especially with the Hassy FE lenses. But that is a choice you have to get into and make.
Best of luck.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105515\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i had a leaf valeo and had no problems with it (other then the "normal bluetooth connection drop")....
switched to phase after checking out every system.....
i now use a mamiya 645afdII and RZIID.....best of both worlds....i actually use the RZ now mostly.....a pleasure to focus....back rotates, no cables, everything just works......looked at the contax, went with mamiya because i had used it before...now i can switch the back between a handheld af "P&S" with af zoom and a studio workhorse.....
i use the RZ more and more because i can actually shoot slower speeds with the RZ....holding the camera in front of the body, looking down lets me hold it more steady....works for me...
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Hi there,
as I said in my December post, when I bought my H3D-22 I immediately experienced problems with the camera. Usually I would receive the error mesages like: restart the back, reattach lens, lens problems...) after just few exposures.
I understand your frustration. I will say, none of these cameras is really perfect. Although, honestly, the most hassle free has been the 1ds2.
I owned the H1D, and I got error messages with that, and had cord issues with that ImageBank. Sent that back; it was certainly not ready for prime time.
Then bought the H1 with P25, and continued onward with error messages and just overall strange behavior. Sold that. I think most of the issues with that combo was the H1; not the P25. I've found Phase to be pretty darn reliable and solid.
Now, reluctantly, I bought the Contax and P45, and I've not had ONE error message or lockup with it. When I first moved out of Canon and into MF, I thought that for sure, the H series was "the way of the future" and that Contax was way out of date. But in reality it's quite the opposite. Like James says, there's not much to go wrong with the Contax - it just works. Day in and day out. Same with the P45 (and a borrowed P30).
I do not know about the H3D. I have not shot it. But overall, I'm just afraid of the H series now. Nothing more frustrating that have that thing lock up in the midst of a pressure job. "Reattach magazine", huh? Very frustrating. I just think the camera might be trying to do too many things at once and it's just not up to the task.
I've never been more surprised at the solid performance of the Contax. So simple, and so Old School, but it rocks. You look down, you know what your settings are, by the knobs -- not by some buried set of Menus, as in the H.
Yet, beyond all this, I wish the best for all these companies, including Hasselblad. My fear is that the entire universe is heading toward a 5D mentality, and nothing would be worse than be forced to shoot a vertical job, with a 24x36 proportion. We need Medium Format to survive. The villain here -- the one to be worried about -- is not Phase, or Hasselblad, or Leaf -- it's Canon.
MT, http://www.marktucker.com (http://www.marktucker.com)
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The villain here -- the one to be worried about -- is not Phase, or Hasselblad, or Leaf -- it's Canon.
MT, http://www.marktucker.com (http://www.marktucker.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105639\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So true.
In some respects I still think Canon might be hurting their agenda with MF/studio shooters though. I was set to pick up a couple of the new bodies when I heard that it was to be an upgrade to the 1Ds series but then they just released another sports shooter.
In regards to the Contax, I love the camera, but why did it have to have a 1/125 x-sync?
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In regards to the Contax, I love the camera, but why did it have to have a 1/125 x-sync?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105657\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Contax and Mamiya 645 are both focal-plane shutter designs. The H is a leaf-shutter design. Everything is a tradeoff. With the Contax or Mamiya, you can mount third party shutterless, (or homemade) lenses, onto the bodies, because the shutter is inside the body. With the H series, you're stuck with their lenses, or else, you use their CF adaptor thing.
I have a Hasselblad 110f2 for my Contax, and a MammyCam too, which is an old timey Mamiya 80mm f1.9 lens, rigged up to a body cap.
Given the choice, I'd much prefer the focal plane body, but that's just my style. If I was a studio guy, shooting strobe all the time, especially outside, I might be forced to choose the H series.
Again, it's about recognizing how you're going to use the tool, and then choosing the proper tool based on that.
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The Contax and Mamiya 645 are both focal-plane shutter designs. The H is a leaf-shutter design. Everything is a tradeoff. With the Contax or Mamiya, you can mount third party shutterless, (or homemade) lenses, onto the bodies, because the shutter is inside the body. With the H series, you're stuck with their lenses, or else, you use their CF adaptor thing.
I have a Hasselblad 110f2 for my Contax, and a MammyCam too, which is an old timey Mamiya 80mm f1.9 lens, rigged up to a body cap.
Given the choice, I'd much prefer the focal plane body, but that's just my style. If I was a studio guy, shooting strobe all the time, especially outside, I might be forced to choose the H series.
Again, it's about recognizing how you're going to use the tool, and then choosing the proper tool based on that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105660\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And add to that point, that the leaf shutter although has faster X-sync, they do not go as fast as focal plane shutter for regular shooting, such as Contax, go all the way to 1/4000s vs H system can only goes to 1/800s.
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Given the choice, I'd much prefer the focal plane body, but that's just my style. If I was a studio guy, shooting strobe all the time, especially outside, I might be forced to choose the H series
...or the Rollei, with 1/1000 flash sync
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...or the Rollei, with 1/1000 flash sync
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105676\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You young guys have a lot more courage than I do. I've been burned in the past, by buying too close to the bleeding edge. Personally, that Rollei/Leaf/Sinar/Whatever is not even on the radar screen for me, until it's been out for at least a year, shipping in quantity, and developing a trustable track record.
Promises are promises, and claims are claims, but they don't matter one bit when you're standing there in a high pressure job, and the camera goes down with no explanation. That Rollei thing, to me, is just The Ultimate Dentist/Doctor Camera, until it's been around for a while, and proven that it's reliable. And that is, if anyone can afford it in the beginning. In addition to the lenses. When budgets are getting tighter, and stock begins to own the world, and you can buy a new 5D for $1800 that does 90% of the jobs out there, I think these high-end companies are going to need to really blow it out of the water if they are to succeed.
Proceed with caution, and get it in writing, and get a written guarantee that the camera is fully refundable if it doesn't perform up to their Copywriter's bold claims. Buyer beware.
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Promises are promises, and claims are claims, but they don't matter one bit when you're standing there in a high pressure job, and the camera goes down with no explanation. That Rollei thing, to me, is just The Ultimate Dentist/Doctor Camera, until it's been around for a while, and proven that it's reliable.
Mark I was referring to the Rollei system, not the Hy6 specifically. I am using a 6008AF with Sinarback right now and enjoy 1/1000th flash sync today. Anyway the flash sync is due to the lenses and they are well and truly known to work.
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The villain here -- the one to be worried about -- is not Phase, or Hasselblad, or Leaf -- it's Canon.
They may very well be but,as the saying goes, "Nice guys finish last" :>))
Would they still be the villain if their frame aspect ratio was the same as the 645 MF cameras?
Mark
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Mark I was referring to the Rollei system, not the Hy6 specifically. I am using a 6008AF with Sinarback right now and enjoy 1/1000th flash sync today. Anyway the flash sync is due to the lenses and they are well and truly known to work.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=105683\")
The problem with the 6008 in the U.S. is the user installed base (customers) is about 3 people.
That has nothing to do with whether the 6008 is a good or bad camera, but it has a lot to do with Rollei's past poor marketing, service and most importantly their inability to get that system into the rental houses for trial and backup.
Same with the HY6. Until the rental houses in all major markets are flooded with these things, they are just another system that is difficult to work with professionally.
I've had few issues with the Contax, but last month in studio my 140mm lens started intermetially not stopping down as we shot. That very second I told the 4th assistant to walk across the hall to rental and get another lens, put it on and kept shooting.
It turns out the lens was fine, just the electrical contacts probably needed cleaning, but had I been using a 6008 or an HY6 I would have had to stop and sort out the problem, which is a buzz kill when it's a many multiple thousand dollar production day.
Your obviously a fan of Rollei and I guess the system works for you, but even in NY walking into B+H, Adorama, Calumet, there are very few Rollei cameras, much less complete lens systems.
Go to the Rollei site and find out any information on the 6008, HY6 or anything that Rollei sells that is professional [a href=\"http://www.rollei.com/]http://www.rollei.com/[/url]
This site clearly demonstrates why Rollei has so few users in the U.S. and if the marketing and distribution of the HY6 is done in the same manner, it will be just as esoteric as the 6008.
JR
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You young guys have a lot more courage than I do. I've been burned in the past, by buying too close to the bleeding edge. Personally, that Rollei/Leaf/Sinar/Whatever is not even on the radar screen for me, until it's been out for at least a year, shipping in quantity, and developing a trustable track record.
Promises are promises, and claims are claims, but they don't matter one bit when you're standing there in a high pressure job, and the camera goes down with no explanation. That Rollei thing, to me, is just The Ultimate Dentist/Doctor Camera, until it's been around for a while, and proven that it's reliable. And that is, if anyone can afford it in the beginning. In addition to the lenses. When budgets are getting tighter, and stock begins to own the world, and you can buy a new 5D for $1800 that does 90% of the jobs out there, I think these high-end companies are going to need to really blow it out of the water if they are to succeed.
Proceed with caution, and get it in writing, and get a written guarantee that the camera is fully refundable if it doesn't perform up to their Copywriter's bold claims. Buyer beware.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105679\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
mark....the rollei 6008 has been around for a long time, i had a system, never had a problem..the schneider lenses are the best and the sinar emotion backs are phantastic as well....unfortunately the 6008 does not play nice with the P30, otherwise i would still be enjoying 1/1000 sync.......but the 1/400 of the RZ is fine as well....
i guess the early 6000 rollei systems had some electrical problems as well and it took them a couple of years to iron them out...i got in later, and never had any problems....sinar has been making Dbacks since the beginning of Dtime, so they are really proven....the software is stable but not very exciting....like most things sinar...rock solid.....
of course the 6000system also accepts hass/imacon backs.....there are some people here using this set-up without problems (also people using the hass/imacon backs with other cameras).......just like the problems people have with the H/Pwhatever set-up seem to be all camera related....so it seems that the problems are with the H camera...
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Go to the Rollei site and find out any information on the 6008, HY6 or anything that Rollei sells that is professional http://www.rollei.com/ (http://www.rollei.com/)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=105688\")
James, you are confusing the companies. The maker of Rolleiflex medium format cameras are :
[a href=\"http://www.franke-heidecke.net/]http://www.franke-heidecke.net/[/url]
(not that there is much more info there... )
Svein Erik
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The problem with the 6008 in the U.S. is the user installed base (customers) is about 3 people.
That has nothing to do with whether the 6008 is a good or bad camera, but it has a lot to do with Rollei's past poor marketing, service and most importantly their inability to get that system into the rental houses for trial and backup.
Same with the HY6. Until the rental houses in all major markets are flooded with these things, they are just another system that is difficult to work with professionally.
I've had few issues with the Contax, but last month in studio my 140mm lens started intermetially not stopping down as we shot. That very second I told the 4th assistant to walk across the hall to rental and get another lens, put it on and kept shooting.
It turns out the lens was fine, just the electrical contacts probably needed cleaning, but had I been using a 6008 or an HY6 I would have had to stop and sort out the problem, which is a buzz kill when it's a many multiple thousand dollar production day.
Your obviously a fan of Rollei and I guess the system works for you, but even in NY walking into B+H, Adorama, Calumet, there are very few Rollei cameras, much less complete lens systems.
Go to the Rollei site and find out any information on the 6008, HY6 or anything that Rollei sells that is professional http://www.rollei.com/ (http://www.rollei.com/)
This site clearly demonstrates why Rollei has so few users in the U.S. and if the marketing and distribution of the HY6 is done in the same manner, it will be just as esoteric as the 6008.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105688\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
absolutely right, i had 2 complete kits with several lenses, some twice, some overlapping, because there simply is no rental available anywhere....none....i think adorama had some, but....if you shoot rollei you have to own everything, which comes at a price.....when i got my P30, i sold all my stuff and after buying 2 complete mamiya 645afdII outfits with several lenses and the P30 (upgrade form P20) i still had money left over...so i really saved money by upgrading to the P30 (but i had to give up my rollei..) and with the RZ being put back in the mix i actually don't miss the rollei anymore.....
james now sinar will take over the marketing/distribution for the Hy6.....that should make it a LOT better.... remember our sinar M discussion?
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You young guys have a lot more courage than I do. I've been burned in the past, by buying too close to the bleeding edge. Personally, that Rollei/Leaf/Sinar/Whatever is not even on the radar screen for me, until it's been out for at least a year, shipping in quantity, and developing a trustable track record.
Promises are promises, and claims are claims, but they don't matter one bit when you're standing there in a high pressure job, and the camera goes down with no explanation. That Rollei thing, to me, is just The Ultimate Dentist/Doctor Camera, until it's been around for a while, and proven that it's reliable. And that is, if anyone can afford it in the beginning. In addition to the lenses. When budgets are getting tighter, and stock begins to own the world, and you can buy a new 5D for $1800 that does 90% of the jobs out there, I think these high-end companies are going to need to really blow it out of the water if they are to succeed.
Proceed with caution, and get it in writing, and get a written guarantee that the camera is fully refundable if it doesn't perform up to their Copywriter's bold claims. Buyer beware.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105679\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I hear you can buy new Contax camera & lenses, but where? I am interested.
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I think some things are clear with regard to H cameras, Contax cameras, and digital backs.
A Contax camera is a relatively simple and reliable camera to use, by virtue of it's "old school" knobs and end of life production status. It allows the lens and the digital back to work together to make an exposure.
A Hasselblad H camera is trying to achieve more than this. It wants to optimize this process and enhance it to provide more options, more control, more quality. It is more complex to use as a result, and it is more liable to produce an error. What's more, it will state "something, something error".
Where the Contax just might not work, the H produces an error message when it doesn't work. I believe this also adds to the consternation of photographers, who aren't expecting their camera to act like a computer. Nonetheless, that is much of what an H camera is, as well as what a Phase, Leaf, Sinar or Hasselblad back is. Most digital backs possess multiple circuit boards inside the back, like a computer.
Whether a Contax or an H2 is a better choice for someone is completely and subjectively up to that individual. There are differences in lenses, sync speeds, ultimate shutter speeds, etc.
I personally find the H2 simple to use. The notion of "things buried in menus" doesn't hold with me. If I want to change auto focus, shutter speed, aperture, etc., all of those controls are at my finger tips with no menus. Indeed, many younger photographers, and for sure, future photographers may find "knobs" totally counter-intuitive. Who's to definitively say a "knob" is better than a dial or a button?
I have nothing against Contax - other than I can't sell it. It's a fine camera that works well. The fact that they're out of business, that repair parts may one day be scarce, or that digital backs in the future may discontinue support for Contax is not an issue for some. For others, it is.
We have customers using Leaf and Hasselblad digital backs on H2 cameras without issue. The H3D cameras have duplicated this performance. We have had a few issues, but all were resolved with a firmware update, or in one case a (3rd party) digital back board replacement. I have zero reservations about selling an H camera to anyone.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Whether a Contax or an H2 is a better choice for someone is completely and subjectively up to that individual. There are differences in lenses, sync speeds, ultimate shutter speeds, etc.
I personally find the H2 simple to use. The notion of "things buried in menus" doesn't hold with me. If I want to change auto focus, shutter speed, aperture, etc., all of those controls are at my finger tips with no menus. Indeed, many younger photographers, and for sure, future photographers may find "knobs" totally counter-intuitive. Who's to definitively say a "knob" is better than a dial or a button?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Steve,
You and I have had this discussion a lot and your right, some of this is just personal likes or dislikes.
A lot of people use an H- series and are happy. Me, well I think it's an ugly camera and I guess that shouldn't matter but just like a Pontiac Grand Am will get your there just as well as a BMW, I'm also not going to drive a Grand Am.
Personally I think what irks people about the H-1 is not the menus, or the lcd's or even the occasional lock up. What seems to bother most people about the H-1 is is doesn't feel, look, or work like a Hasselblad and I'm not talking old guys, I find this across the board, actually the younger assistants I work with dislike it more than a lot of photogrpahers.
Still, Canon and the 1ds did not take the medium format market from Hasselblad, Contax, Phase, Leaf or Sinar. Those makers gave the medium format market to Canon by not producing a portable, stable, higher iso back at a medium price point at the time Canon introduced the 1ds, even the 1ds2.
I started with digital early and would have bought a (then) Imacon, Leaf, or Phase if any of them had an lcd, shot a fairly sustained frame rate, had an iso that was useable above 100 (real iso by the way, if anyone know what real iso is) and didn't cost 3 to 4 times what the Canon 1ds cost.
Sadly the P-30 wasn't available then and I believe had it been, definately Contax would still be around, RZ's and Mamiya's would be selling and maybe the H system wouldn't have started to morph into a single proprietary digital camera.
It doesn't matter because Contax is gone, mamiya seems to be holding on by a thread and we have all this talk of a new Rollei, err, excuse me, Franke and Heinke, err, excuse me, Sinar/Leaf camera that as of today does not have announced prices, lens ranges, or exact dates of availability.
I do know this. If the medium format companies keep going down this same road it will be an all Canon world.
JR
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It doesn't matter because Contax is gone, mamiya seems to be holding on by a thread and we have all this talk of a new Rollei, err, excuse me, Franke and Heinke, err, excuse me, Sinar/Leaf camera that as of today does not have announced prices, lens ranges, or exact dates of availability.
I do know this. If the medium format companies keep going down this same road it will be an all Canon world.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah, and many of us wonder if the new Rollei won't kill off the Mamiya, thereby killing off Phase in the process. It's interesting that Phase who don't own a camera maker still haven't cut a deal with their competition to assure their survival.
Hasselblad is not going away, they're too good at marketing and within a year or so they'll have fixed their remaining bugs. At Photokina they admitted they had them, and that they were fixing; as we all know a company that admits a tech problem will usually design it out of its ***next*** product.
Edmund
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Yeah, and many of us wonder if the new Rollei won't kill off the Mamiya, thereby killing off Phase in the process. It's interesting that Pas who don't own a camera maker still haven't cut a deal with their competition to assure their survival.
Hasselblad is not going away, they're too good at marketing and within a year or so they'll have fixed their remaining bugs.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105768\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Edmund,
What do you base any of this statement on?
JR
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Edmund,
What do you base any of this statement on?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105769\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Which part ? Most of it is my usual brand of conjecture apart from the part about Hasselblad which is based on my abilities as a pro journalist to assess the very massive marketing abilities of Hasselblad as confirmed by various sources, and my lengthy interview of the Hasselblad CEO at Photokina.
As for the rest - have you heard anything that leads you to be certain of the medium-term future of Mamiya ? Everyone on this forum is gaga over the Hy6 although no client has yet received one ! Do you really think MF is now so big that it can take another competitor ? I have seen the sales figures for France, and I assure you they aren't brilliant. On the other hand, I have seen the dSLR data for the US, and it's enough to make Canon jump for joy !
I would believe in the future of Mamiya if they had managed to get the ZD out there with better ISO at a cheaper pricepoint; then they would have been unassailable. Now they're visibly fragile as sales go. Not because they don't have market share, only, but because the market for digital MF is so tiny. Every time H sell a body they sell a back now, that's real money. For Mamiya a camera is a camera.
Let's face it, for Leaf, Sinar and Hasselblad, a camera is now a loss-leader to sell a back. And maybe a lens or two.
Edmund
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Which part ? Most of it is my usual brand of conjecture apart from the part about Hasselblad which is based on my abilities as a pro journalist to assess the very massive marketing abilities of Hasselblad as confirmed by various sources, and my lengthy interview of the Hasselblad CEO at Photokina.
As for the rest - have you heard anything that leads you to be certain of the medium-term future of Mamiya ? Everyone on this forum is gaga over the Hy6 although no client has yet received one ! Do you really think MF is now so big that it can take another competitor ? I have seen the sales figures for France, and I assure you they aren't brilliant. On the other hand, I have seen the dSLR data for the US, and it's enough to make Canon jump for joy !
I would believe in the future of Mamiya if they had managed to get the ZD out there with better ISO at a cheaper pricepoint; then they would have been unassailable. Now they're visibly fragile as sales go. Not because they don't have market share, only, but because the market for digital MF is so tiny. Every time H sell a body they sell a back now, that's real money. For Mamiya a camera is a camera.
Let's face it, for Leaf, Sinar and Hasselblad, a camera is now a loss-leader to sell a back. And maybe a lens or two.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105770\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Edmund,
No personal offense meant, but those are some of the silliest statements I've read.
The CEO of a corporation gives you face time and you believe everything he says . . . think Jeffrey Skilling of Enron said the same thing.
35mm dslrs out sell medium format? There is nothing new in that. Cheap cameras have always outsold expensive cameras . . . actually cheap anything has always outsold expensive anything.
Phase and Mamiya will be gone? Well at some point of time we'll all be gone, but Phase goes from 1 to gone because they don't own a camera doesn't make much sense to me. I wouild imagine the largest seller of "digital film" will probably carry some weight when it comes to camera options.
Medium format cameras like the proposed Hy6 are lost leaders and only exist to sell backs? We'll on this your probably right, (though nobody really knows the price), but the bottom line is still the bottom line. Some if this is like Ford selling me 4 Ford required tires for $30,000 and giving me the car for free. It's still a $30,000 car. Maybe some of these backs are just overpriced.
What I've noticed in the world of digital photogrpahy is what is said in pdf's, magazine interviews and manufacturer's websites have very little to do with the real world.
Pentax has been showing a camera under glass for a year, Olympus is going to change the world of photography with 4/3's, the Kodak 14n has ouitstanding quality and Leaf has wi-fi. The list goes on and on but what actually happens in real life is very different than the PR hype.
I think before you make these statements you need to stick your nose in about 20 studios in NY, talk to the rental houses, the dealers that sell this stuff and the photographers that are shooting day in day out, because what is actually happening today is much different than your prediction of the future.
JR
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James, you are confusing the companies. The maker of Rolleiflex medium format cameras are :
http://www.franke-heidecke.net/ (http://www.franke-heidecke.net/)
(not that there is much more info there... )
Svein Erik
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=105692\")
As Svein says, there isn't much more info there and the lack of non-German information shows how marketing-(un)oriented they are. There aren't even any links to Hy6 information... This information can be found on [a href=\"http://www.sinarcameras.com/]http://www.sinarcameras.com/[/url] and http://www.leafamerica.com/ (http://www.leafamerica.com/) but for FH (who definitely have a dog in this fight) it's marketing-unsavvy to not even link to these sites.
The points being made about getting the unit into rental shops is right. This is so critical for getting exposure in the real-world sales channel. Luckily Sinar and Leaf can (hopefully) play that game better than FH have with the 6008.
FH is clearly a company focused on engineering... I have to give them props for this, but they aren't doing themselves any favors by completely ignoring the realities of marketing.
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As Svein says, there isn't much more info there and the lack of non-German information shows how marketing-(un)oriented they are. There aren't even any links to Hy6 information... This information can be found on http://www.sinarcameras.com/ (http://www.sinarcameras.com/) and http://www.leafamerica.com/ (http://www.leafamerica.com/) but for FH (who definitely have a dog in this fight) it's marketing-unsavvy to not even link to these sites.
The points being made about getting the unit into rental shops is right. This is so critical for getting exposure in the real-world sales channel. Luckily Sinar and Leaf can (hopefully) play that game better than FH have with the 6008.
FH is clearly a company focused on engineering... I have to give them props for this, but they aren't doing themselves any favors by completely ignoring the realities of marketing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105834\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Marketing will help, getting a new camera in rental houses and studios help, a decent price helps, but marketing and availablity means nothing unless the product really works.
Not PDF works, but in the real world works.
Jams, slow software, challenged color, difficult tehtering, will way offset any of the above.
For me and what I do, unless I can shoot 2000 frames a day without issue and adjust and process these frames quickly and relliably, no pdf, website, or rental availability, or promises will ever make me switch from something stable.
I hope the HY6/Sinar/Leaf works, but it's more than the camera, much more.
JR
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Great thread, Here's my experience of the H system for what it's worth...
The first 1000 frames gave me glitches and camera lockups. These were solved with cleaning the electrical contacts with isopropyl alcohol.
The next 20,000 frames saw only a few glitches in the camera body. The firmware was upgraded and I bought a 7.2V rechargeable battery system.
The next 40,000 frames were perfect without a glitch at all. I was offered a complimentary upgrade to H2 but I think I will keep my H1 just as it is.
Two of my lenses went soft and I sent them back for checking. They came back perfect. One lens had a shutter jam but was fixed within 24 hours. The lenses are all brilliant now and the optical quality is the best I've ever used.
The P25 has never missed a beat and I'm hard on my kit. The case of my P25 is really scratched and tatty but the workings are perfect. I've had the system for 2 1/2 years now and it is fantastic. Shame I can't use the 28mm :-(
Damien.
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Deleted (redundant).
Edmund
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Edmund,
No personal offense meant, but those are some of the silliest statements I've read.
The CEO of a corporation gives you face time and you believe everything he says . . . think Jeffrey Skilling of Enron said the same thing.
JR
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James, no personal offense taken of course.
The part about H fixing their bugs was the only part from the CEO here, and of course I believe they will fix them - in the next model
As for the rest, with respect, James, I stand behind my analysis. The market of people capable of buying $30K systems is substantially smaller than the old MF market. The whole situation reminds me of an annual dinner of octogenerians - Pentax, Contax, we miss you, who's next ?
Edmund
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Great thread, Here's my experience of the H system for what it's worth...
The first 1000 frames gave me glitches and camera lockups. These were solved with cleaning the electrical contacts with isopropyl alcohol.
The next 20,000 frames saw only a few glitches in the camera body. The firmware was upgraded and I bought a 7.2V rechargeable battery system.
The next 40,000 frames were perfect without a glitch at all. I was offered a complimentary upgrade to H2 but I think I will keep my H1 just as it is.
Two of my lenses went soft and I sent them back for checking. They came back perfect. One lens had a shutter jam but was fixed within 24 hours. The lenses are all brilliant now and the optical quality is the best I've ever used.
The P25 has never missed a beat and I'm hard on my kit. The case of my P25 is really scratched and tatty but the workings are perfect. I've had the system for 2 1/2 years now and it is fantastic. Shame I can't use the 28mm :-(
Damien.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105905\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Damien,
Thanks for the "real world" experience. After reading your post, viewing, your site, and today actually handling an H2, the only thing left is for me is to rent one for about a week. I have to admit though I think I'm pretty much a "done deal" for the H2 with a P20 or 25 ( wish I could go bigger but budget constraints). Like yourself I am largely Portrait but also Fashion. Do you see a large advantage to the P25 over the P20?
Thanks,
Don
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Great thread, Here's my experience of the H system for what it's worth...
The first 1000 frames gave me glitches and camera lockups. These were solved with cleaning the electrical contacts with isopropyl alcohol.
The next 20,000 frames saw only a few glitches in the camera body. The firmware was upgraded and I bought a 7.2V rechargeable battery system.
The next 40,000 frames were perfect without a glitch at all. I was offered a complimentary upgrade to H2 but I think I will keep my H1 just as it is.
Two of my lenses went soft and I sent them back for checking. They came back perfect. One lens had a shutter jam but was fixed within 24 hours. The lenses are all brilliant now and the optical quality is the best I've ever used.
The P25 has never missed a beat and I'm hard on my kit. The case of my P25 is really scratched and tatty but the workings are perfect. I've had the system for 2 1/2 years now and it is fantastic. Shame I can't use the 28mm :-(
Damien.
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damien..thanks for the honest report....i am glad you are happy with your tool, but don't you think your expectations are on the low end if you don't consider your experience not so good?
you had the same problems everybody has had with the camera....several times....after some tuning it now works as it should, your lenses (from your posts on the phase forum i take you have 4) are 3 out of 4 with one problem or another.....
i don't think that is acceptable at all....
in 20 years of shooting with anything from fujis, nikons, canons, mamiyas, hasselblads, rolleis and yes practika.....i have had one shutter lock-up (hass V 40mm bought used, locked up on the first day...go figure), one mirror problem (rollei 6008, bought as demo, mirror got knocked out of whack in transport) and one time my mamiya 645 would not fire (the assistant put one of the batteries in the wrong way) and i had a light leak once in a film back (rental back , the last time i shot film).....and the problems i had with rented H systems, every time i shot with one....the same as described here.....
maybe i have been extremely lucky....i do expect things to break sometimes...i do send stuff in for cleaning and maintainance (not as much as i should maybe)....but to buy something new and have several thing happen and several things happen with lenses as well? i would not consider that acceptable.....i don't know how much i would have to love that camera....
i am amazed that you are writing this and are happy with the system!
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damien..thanks for the honest report....i am glad you are happy with your tool, but don't you think your expectations are on the low end if you don't consider your experience not so good?
you had the same problems everybody has had with the camera....several times....after some tuning it now works as it should, your lenses (from your posts on the phase forum i take you have 4) are 3 out of 4 with one problem or another.....
i don't think that is acceptable at all....
in 20 years of shooting with anything from fujis, nikons, canons, mamiyas, hasselblads, rolleis and yes practika.....i have had one shutter lock-up (hass V 40mm bought used, locked up on the first day...go figure), one mirror problem (rollei 6008, bought as demo, mirror got knocked out of whack in transport) and one time my mamiya 645 would not fire (the assistant put one of the batteries in the wrong way) and i had a light leak once in a film back (rental back , the last time i shot film).....and the problems i had with rented H systems, every time i shot with one....the same as described here.....
maybe i have been extremely lucky....i do expect things to break sometimes...i do send stuff in for cleaning and maintainance (not as much as i should maybe)....but to buy something new and have several thing happen and several things happen with lenses as well? i would not consider that acceptable.....i don't know how much i would have to love that camera....
i am amazed that you are writing this and are happy with the system!
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You've been lucky. My Hasselblad V cameras always had issues with shutter cocking - even my clockwork 500CM. My Rolloei 6008 had to go back 2 times for 'errors' and never wound 220 tightly enough. My 6003 was fine but was used as a backup more often than I would have liked. I had the same problem with my Mamiya 645 system too, plus the lenses were soft - noticeably the 35mm and the wide zoom. My Fuji S2 is on it's third CCD. My Nikon D200 had to be replaced in week one because of a power fault that couldn't be repaired. The replacement has lines on the picture near areas of high contrast. The delegates on my training courses that use Canon are always getting 'error codes' The most common being Error 99 on the 1DS Mk2. With this error the delegates have to go to a spare body. The delegates 5D's overexpose on TTL by a stop when using the 580 where as the 20D, 400D, 1D etc seem spot on. Oh and I'm on my second Metz 54 MZ4 because I blew one up last week. It went bang and now rattles :-( It has worked hard so I dont blame it for dying.
My point is, like cars, things go wrong, and in the real world shooting every day, faults happen. I feel confident enough with my H1 and lenses not to need a backup. I fully expect my wifes Nikon or a delegates Canon to return an error before my Hasselblad.
Damien.
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Damien,
Thanks for the "real world" experience. After reading your post, viewing, your site, and today actually handling an H2, the only thing left is for me is to rent one for about a week. I have to admit though I think I'm pretty much a "done deal" for the H2 with a P20 or 25 ( wish I could go bigger but budget constraints). Like yourself I am largely Portrait but also Fashion. Do you see a large advantage to the P25 over the P20?
Thanks,
Don
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P25 is the perfect back for the H2. What you see is what you get and the extra pixels are really worth having. I'd leave the P20 well alone. Make sure you can get a +back if you are buying new because the standard P25 is nearly 3 years old and the extra stop would be worth having.
Enjoy the system.
Damien.
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I am using severall hasselblad H1 and H2 sets for more than 2 years now , the H1 with a imacon 96C and the H2 now with hasselblad CF39 back. I have until now not yet expirienced any difficulties with both systems. I have schot some 45000 exposures with the H1/96c (wich i continue to use almost daily for the less demanding jobs) some 15000 with the H2/132C and about 2500 pictures with my H2/CF39 back.
I think we almost only hear about hassie owners who have problems and seldom about people who are extremely happy with the imacon backs ( like me ).
I also love to use the different backs on my rollei 6008 and contax 645 as well. No other system gives me that opportunity.
An other important factor in chosing for hasselblad for me was the simpel fact that,after having two Phase one backs with lots of technical and software difficulties, i came tot the conclusion that the only company ( in the country where i live) that could support me with sufficiant knowledge was the Hasselblad/imacon dealer. Phase was horrible over here at that point. And to me getting proper answers to my questions is of a rather big importance to me.
Best regards, Fotoraf.