Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: kchroma on February 28, 2007, 01:52:18 pm
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Hello:
At one time, I thought you could use digital backs with my Sinar P2. Then I heard that the rack and pinion mechanism was not fine enough to use them with. Could the gentleman, from Sinar, who posts to this board clarify that for me please? If someone else has any recent experience with the newest backs and Sinar, could you add your experience as well?
Also, can I use the 24 and 28 digital lenses with the Sinar p2 camera as well?
Thanks,
Paul
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Hello:
At one time, I thought you could use digital backs with my Sinar P2. Then I heard that the rack and pinion mechanism was not fine enough to use them with. Could the gentleman, from Sinar, who posts to this board clarify that for me please? If someone else has any recent experience with the newest backs and Sinar, could you add your experience as well?
Also, can I use the 24 and 28 digital lenses with the Sinar p2 camera as well?
Thanks,
Paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103802\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I own a P2 dont work for Sinar
My experience is that it works fine with a 100m lense for table top work
You basically make a rough composition on the glass then do your fine focus by shooting images and wiggle the focus until sharp
In terms of wides I have a rodenstock 47 which (with a sliding back) is absolutely the widest possible** for infinity focus - the (WA) bellows are scrunched right up - you can get a bit of rise/fall but no swing
I hate using the sinar with the 47 and have in fact given up with it but for table top with my 110 it is no problem
If you own a P2 I wouldnt get rid of it - if you dont own a P2 I wouldnt buy one - if you see what I mean
One thing to play with would be to keep the bellows with a long lens and mount a wide lens on the front of the back standard with a FOTOTMAN focus ring
I did similar with a 24NIkkor
SMM
** I dont know about the new Roden 28
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Hello:
At one time, I thought you could use digital backs with my Sinar P2. Then I heard that the rack and pinion mechanism was not fine enough to use them with. Could the gentleman, from Sinar, who posts to this board clarify that for me please? If someone else has any recent experience with the newest backs and Sinar, could you add your experience as well?
Also, can I use the 24 and 28 digital lenses with the Sinar p2 camera as well?
Thanks,
Paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103802\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Paul,
You actually have a few options depending upon which digital back you would like to use on your P2. First off .. Sinar makes a kit that will convert your P2 to a P3. Roughly it is a little less than half of the price of buying a P3.
Your 2nd option is a Sliding Back. Sinar makes one, Phase One makes one, and so does Kapture Group.
The 3rd Option is .. Sinar makes an adapter for putting a Sinar Digital back directly onto your P2 and you would use Live Video for focusing. Kapture Group makes a similar adapter for using other digital backs on the P2 that offer live video.
That being said ... You "might" be able to get a 28mm focused with extra wide bellows and a recessed board with live video. I think the sliding back will take you just far enough away that you will not be able to. I think the 24 is not a likely option under either scenario.
Hope that helps ... If you are in the US and you PM me your info I will put you in touch with your local Sinar Bron Rep.
Thanks,
Matt LaPointe
National Sales Support Specialist
Sinar Bron Imaging
(219) 670-9905
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Dear Paul,
It is absolutely possible to use a p2 with a digital back, in 3 different ways:
1. with the lenses on DB mount and Sinarcam 2: the Cam2 is not longer in production, however and sometimes we do have refurbished ones.
2. with the lenses in DB mount with the "Behind-the-Lens" Copal shutter: in this case the multishot function (if needed) has to be done with darkened studio and shutter on B, trigered from the computer. Single shot can be done "normaly".
3. with the lenses in Copal mount: same as above, multishot needs darkened studio. Single shot can be done "normaly".
Those 3 configurations can be used 2 different ways:
- with a "Carrier Frame" positioning the back exactly in the focus/image plane to be able to make use of the p2's easy 2-points sharpness plane adjustment (tilt/swing) and with even a "Revolving Adapter" if wished (no need to take away the back from Vertical to Horizontal shooting).
- with a Sliding Adapter 100 and "Tapered Bellow".
In fact, photographers starting with digital backs on a view camera have all used their existing Sinar p2, usually with the Cam 2, and there are STILL many using this configuration. If your p2 is in good condition and the movements/gears well adjusted, then it is absolutely easy and without any probem at all and the mechanisms are precise enough. There is even a special "Depth-of-Field" scale you can mount on your p2, taking in account the size of the sensor for your f-stop calculation.
I have myself worked for years with these configurations above, untl the p3 became available.
IN ADDITION: I would not and never get rid of my p2 camera: you have the possibility also to CONVERT it to a Sinar p3 (re-design of the p2 for digital = smaller, shorter shift ways, lighter, ...) at very low costs: this conversion kit consists of the 2 4x5" frames (lens and image) which are exchanged with 2 100mm p3 frames and with in addition a 100mm p3 bellows. Once the conversion is done you have the possibility to work with different lens mounts (CPL mount = Coal, CMV mount = Cental Magnetic Shutter) and CAB mount = full automatic control via Captureshop).
Digital lenses from 28mm up to 210 mm can be used.
I hope this answers your questions.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hello:
At one time, I thought you could use digital backs with my Sinar P2. Then I heard that the rack and pinion mechanism was not fine enough to use them with. Could the gentleman, from Sinar, who posts to this board clarify that for me please? If someone else has any recent experience with the newest backs and Sinar, could you add your experience as well?
Also, can I use the 24 and 28 digital lenses with the Sinar p2 camera as well?
Thanks,
Paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103802\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I've been using a sinar p2/54H/Sinarcam2 for the last couple of years. The rack and pinion on the p2 standards works beautifully. I compose and focus everything on my monitor. I use the 135, 80 and 45 lenses. They all work equally well!
When I first started shooting digitally, I used a sliding back on my P2. Focus on a tiny ground glass, then slide the digital back into place and shoot. Yuck! The sinar live video is soooooo much easier to work with.
So to answer your question, yes, the standards on a P2 are precise enough to do critical focus adjustments.
Jeff
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Paul,
I used the P2 in the studio for years. I always felt that once you used it you could never be happy with anything else.
If you feel the same way about the P2, you will find that working with the P3 and a digital back a dream, especially with a Sinarback and Live Video.
You can absolutely use a DB on a P2, it just feels a bit clunky and oversized in my opinion. I painfully parted with my P2 but now that I'm completely out of film I don't miss it and the transition to a P3 was very easy. With a Sinarback54H and CMV lenses it is a dream to work with.
But, everyone is right - you can make the exact same captures with a DB on a P2 - it's just a bit more of a workaround. (Morgan - I admire your resourcefulness!)
I think it comes down to how much of your work is done in studio-if it is a smaller percentage of your work then I would keep the P2 and put your $$$ into the Digital Back. You can always upgrade later on or not. That's the beauty of the Sinar system.
Believe me, I know how hard and complicated these decisions are.
Best,
Frank Poole
www.frankpoole.com
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Hello:
First, thanks to everyone for their responses. At one time, I had three P2's from 4x5 to 8 x 10. Sold all but one early before the prices on Ebay started to drop. My business plan is such that I can't afford to spend thousands of dollars without seriously looking for anyway to use what I have currently. In my geographic location, renting becomes problematic and my policy has been to own rather than rent for these past 29 years.
I followed the recent discussions about lenses and architecture and decided I'd rather have more than less picture room. Therefore, I'm leaning to maximum flexibility of using a 24 mm lens.
I often get stuffed into smaller and smaller spaces to place my camera for just the view required by the architect, corporate or industial client. Often, I've switched to my Kodak slr/n with 17-35 Nikon zoom to perform that camera miracle.
Is it my understanding then, that the 24 mm lens will not, under any circumstances of refit, or buying outright a P3, work correctly? That, current designs make it's focusing and operation impossible unless you stand on your head, wiggle your toes, roll you eyes counterclockwise and sing all the verses to Don McClain's old hit song " American Pie"? For those unfamiliar with that song, it's very, very long!
If the P3's design is such that it can't operate a 24 mm lens, how can some of these other cameras do it? Should I consider fixed platforms like Hasselblad or this new hybrid Sinar and forget about adjusting perspective in-camera and do it in Photoshop? I think I've read that the new Hasselblad has a 28 mm lens for such purposes. Discussions on this forum seem to be using both ways for that.
Thanks,
Paul
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If I had the cash, I'd purchas an Arca-Swiss 6X9 M-Line Monolith. It's a terrific camera, very intuitive to operate. I think you can get a 28mm lens to work with it. It's really the only Arca-Swiss solution for super wide angle.
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the 28mm is no problem, and can be used as well on any Sinar camera, p, p2 or 3.
The problem is the 24mm: I am pretty sure that this lens might have vignetting at infinity and with the 48x36mm (eMotions) and the 49x36.7mm sensors (SB 54 H and SB 54M).
I shall get advice from our product manager and confirm this as soon as possible.
Thierry
If I had the cash, I'd purchas an Arca-Swiss 6X9 M-Line Monolith. It's a terrific camera, very intuitive to operate. I think you can get a 28mm lens to work with it. It's really the only Arca-Swiss solution for super wide angle.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103989\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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the 28mm is no problem, and can be used as well on any Sinar camera, p, p2 or 3.
The problem is the 24mm: I am pretty sure that this lens might have vignetting at infinity and with the 48x36mm (eMotions) and the 49x36.7mm sensors (SB 54 H and SB 54M).
I shall get advice from our product manager and confirm this as soon as possible.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am confused about use of a 28 - my 47 is right at the minimum - WITH a Linhof sliding back
Will the 28 work without the SBA or what ??
Slightly OT but the sinarCAM does that crop the image to a strict 35mm size or can one use the full coverage of Nikkors ??
SMM
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Dear Sam, Dear Paul,
we are not speaking here about the 28mm Nikor, but the 28mm Rodenstock Digital HR: this lens covers the size of a 22MPx, 33 MPx and the 39 MPx sensor at infinity. It has an angle of 101° and an image circle of 70mm (Diagonal of the 22 and 33 MPx = 62mm).
The 24mm is from Schneider and can be mount on a Sinar lens mount for p2 with Schneider or Rollei shutter (possibly also in Copal mount on request): this 24mm lens has an angle of 100° with an image circle of 60mm and therefore it would very slightlybe vigneting at infinity.
I hope this answers the questions.
Best regards,
Thierry
I am confused about use of a 28 - my 47 is right at the minimum - WITH a Linhof sliding back
Will the 28 work without the SBA or what ??
Slightly OT but the sinarCAM does that crop the image to a strict 35mm size or can one use the full coverage of Nikkors ??
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104008\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Sam, Dear Paul,
we are not speaking here about the 28mm Nikor, [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I know !
When I boutght the p2 and 47 which was some time ago the 47 was the widest lense that was practical
Due to the stanards coming together for infinity focus (when using a SBA)
My question is - is that different with the new Roden 28 ?
Using nikkors (smaller image circle - I know) is a seperate interest to me as I own from 14-600 already
I would still question that the P2 is appropriate for such wide lenses where focus is very fine - different from using a longer lense for table top where the movements are much larger and accuacy requirement smaller
SMM
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Dear Sam,
yes, this is possible with a digital 28 HR: the lens is mounted behind the shutter, not like with the p2 used with analog lenses. You need of course the wide angle bellows N°2 to be able to shorten the standards enough. For the focusing, it is very precise to do it with the live video and the focus feature which tells you when maximum focus is reached: no problem at all, for me. On the groundglass it would of course be pretty difficult and inaccurate.
I think that many of our customers are still sing this p2 configuration, even with short lenses, and I have never had one complaining about it.
Best regards,
Thierry
I know !
When I boutght the p2 and 47 which was some time ago the 47 was the widest lense that was practical
Due to the stanards coming together for infinity focus (when using a SBA)
My question is - is that different with the new Roden 28 ?
Using nikkors (smaller image circle - I know) is a seperate interest to me as I own from 14-600 already
I would still question that the P2 is appropriate for such wide lenses where focus is very fine - different from using a longer lense for table top where the movements are much larger and accuacy requirement smaller
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104139\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Sam,
yes, this is possible with a digital 28 HR: the lens is mounted behind the shutter, [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What shutter is this ??
That makes sense
Of course I use wide angle bellows and a recessed board with my 47 (!)
But the sliding back does probably use and extra 15mm or so
Proably when the live is available for the emotion this will become of interest
SMM
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2 Possiblities:
- by using the Sinarcam2, but discontinued (still some refurbished from time to time)
- by using the Copal "Behind-the-Lens" Shutter (shutter in front and turned)
Possible with both the sliding adapter or not.
About eMotion and Live Video: release and upgrade/updates conditions have been releasd yesterday to all Sinar's distributors.
Thierry
What shutter is this ??
That makes sense
Of course I use wide angle bellows and a recessed board with my 47 (!)
But the sliding back does probably use and extra 15mm or so
Proably when the live is available for the emotion this will become of interest
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104142\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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- by using the Copal "Behind-the-Lens" Shutter (shutter in front and turned)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=104144\")
Do you mean the product listed as ..
Sinar Auto Aperture Shutter
[a href=\"http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-1835-50-1962.html]http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-1835-50-1962.html[/url]
The hole doesnt look big enough not to obscure the front element or am I being thick ??
Also how is the aperture adusted ?
I take it nikkors could also be mounted behind this shutter (in theory) but probably not the 14 which is my main interest
SMM
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YES; this Auto Aperture Shutter.
the 28mm is mounted on recessed lens board (on request) to be able to use it with the Copal Auto Aperture shutter, or on a DB mount for the use with the Cam2.
it is on a DB mount, thus the aperture can be se on the shutter as usual.
Thierry
Do you mean the product listed as ..
Sinar Auto Aperture Shutter
http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-1835-50-1962.html (http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-1835-50-1962.html)
The hole doesnt look big enough not to obscure the front element or am I being thick ??
Also how is the aperture adusted ?
I take it nikkors could also be mounted behind this shutter (in theory) but probably not the 14 which is my main interest
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104147\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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YES; this Auto Aperture Shutter.
the 28mm is mounted on recessed lens board (on request) to be able to use it with the Copal Auto Aperture shutter, or on a DB mount for the use with the Cam2.
it is on a DB mount, thus the aperture can be se on the shutter as usual.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104148\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I really am being thick
Forget the Cam2 it doesnt exist any more
Please explain
The 28 is mounted in a recessed lensboard so that it has a flat front
That flat front is attached to the shutter so the shutter is sitting in front of thefront element ?
Now the lens is inside the bellows
This makes sense
But
i dont dont understand the hole in the lenseboard doesnt seem big enough to allow light into the front element AND there is no aperture control ????
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no problem Sam: I'm very patient!
Yes, the Cam2 is discontinued officially, but we still have some from time to time.
yes, the lens is mounted on a recessed board (type DB) to be "flat" and is inside the bellows: the fact that this is a DB-Mount allows the connection with either the Cam 2 or the Copal shutter (Copal is mounted in front of the standard AND "turned") to set the aperture (Cam2 Automatically via software and the Copal shutter manually as with analog DB lenses).
As for the hole being big enough, I can't judge, but so far I rememeber it is about the size of the front glass element of the lens: fact is that it works like this.
Thierry
I really am being thick
Forget the Cam2 it doesnt exist any more
Please explain
The 28 is mounted in a recessed lensboard so that it has a flat front
That flat front is attached to the shutter so the shutter is sitting in front of thefront element ?
Now the lens is inside the bellows
This makes sense
But
i dont dont understand the hole in the lenseboard doesnt seem big enough to allow light into the front element AND there is no aperture control ????
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104154\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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So the 28 with a DB mount has an aperture control betweet the front and rear elements and the auto shutter communicates this aperture setting to the lens and the hole in auto shutter is greater than 72mm diameter which is the size of the front element of the 28 lens ...
And the controlling software for the aperture is capture shop not a seperate device like the rollei and schnider lens controllers
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Yes, so it is.
Thierry
So the 28 with a DB mount has an aperture control betweet the front and rear elements and the auto shutter communicates this aperture setting to the lens and the hole in auto shutter is greater than 72mm diameter which is the size of the front element of the 28 lens ....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104156\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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.... and just a precision about the sliding adapter: this sliding adapter is built in a way that the back itself is excatly in the same plane where used to be the 4x5" groundglass (and of course in the "Tilt & Swings" assymetrical axes of the p2). therefore there are no 15mm or so lost for this sliding adapter.
I hope I express myself clearly enough.
Thierry
So the 28 with a DB mount has an aperture control betweet the front and rear elements and the auto shutter communicates this aperture setting to the lens and the hole in auto shutter is greater than 72mm diameter which is the size of the front element of the 28 lens ....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104156\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
Please post publicly here about:
- availability and pricing of LV versions of eMotion, and what promotions.
- same for eVolution75 and eXposure software.
Thank you,
Billy
Matt L,
Please also chime in.
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Hello:
So, if I understand all this, both a 24 and 28 Rodenstock hr lens will work on a P2. But, both mount inside the bag and can only be fired by tether using your Sinar programs. Finally, you mentioned that focus is so inaccurate and difficult, using just the ground glass, that video focusing is the only practical option for speed and accuracy. Does this focusing problem arise with sliding backs, as the other gentleman mentioned, but has yet to be answered so far?
Ok, if all the above is true, does this apply to the p3 as well? Or, does it not suffer from the same problems as the p2 when using wide angle lenses?
Finally, do all the special cameras that have been referred to, in this forum's heading about architectural photography, suffer from the same problems or do they operate differently?
Thanks,
Paul
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Dear Paul,
not quite right. I explain myself:
- YES; both the 24 and 28 HR can be mounted and are mounted "inside" the bellows and behind the shutter, LIKE ALL Sinar Digital lenses with Cam 2 and p2.
- NO; they can ALSO be fired with a cable release available for the CAM 2, as well with the cable release of the Copal Automatic Aperture shutter. BUT, in case you want to shoot in multishot mode and with the Copal Automatic Shutter, THEN you have to release from the computer/software and put the shutter on "B". The CAM 2 will control automatically in Multishot mode.
- The focus is very difficult with any short focal lens and on any camera: that is what I meant. Therefore, and since one has the live video feature, this is much more precise and much more convenient to use. Has nothing to do with the sliding adapter, purely a short focal issue (same difficulty to judge focus with a 20mm or even shorter on a 35mm camera).
- the p3 has the same mechanical movement possibilities as the p2, however with a bit finer tolerances for the micrometrical movements (although this is not the main point for me). The p2 can be converted to a p3 by just changing the 2 4x5" frames and replacing it by 2 100mm frames and a 100mm bellow. The digital lenses used on a p3 are the same as the digital ones for the p3, but on different lens mounts:
1. in CMV mount: semi-automatic, central magnetic shutter (aperture set manually and exposure time control through software).
2. in CAB mount: full automatic controlled lenses (exposure time and aperture), these lense have to be used with the Sinar m mounted on the p3 as control unit and shutter. (if you wish more details let me know, I can send you a PM with a image of this configuration).
3. in CPL mount: Copal shutter mounted in-between the lens, like any lens with Copal shutter
The focusing with short lenses on the groundglass of the sliding adapter has the same difficulty as with the p2: it is not a camera issue however see above). Therefore, also here, it is much more easy and precise to make use of the live video.
I think once somebody as tried the composition, the framing and the tilt/swing adjustments and the focusing with the live video function would never go back to a groundglass: this is my experience with all photographers using it. And some have written about this in their posts above.
Is that clear enough? Do not hesitate if you still need clarifications.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hello:
So, if I understand all this, both a 24 and 28 Rodenstock hr lens will work on a P2. But, both mount inside the bag and can only be fired by tether using your Sinar programs. Finally, you mentioned that focus is so inaccurate and difficult, using just the ground glass, that video focusing is the only practical option for speed and accuracy. Does this focusing problem arise with sliding backs, as the other gentleman mentioned, but has yet to be answered so far?
Ok, if all the above is true, does this apply to the p3 as well? Or, does it not suffer from the same problems as the p2 when using wide angle lenses?
Finally, do all the special cameras that have been referred to, in this forum's heading about architectural photography, suffer from the same problems or do they operate differently?
Thanks,
Paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104198\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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So, if I understand all this, both a 24 and 28 Rodenstock hr lens will work on a P2.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104198\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am still very suspect of using those wides on ANY view camera system
For MOST WA architecture shot only rise and fall is used
Cameras such as alpa/horseman with no tilt will keep the lense parrealel to the 'film' plane because they dont move from parralell
One block of metal is bound to be more rigid than the finest bellows aragngement regardless of make
As far I I can work out upgrading to a P3 which will be more rigid than a P2 is as expensive as a horseman SWA kit
And with horseman thay can can be used with good ol copals that will save a few more $$$$
I would keep the P2 for longer lenses such as 100 where swings and tilts come into thier own
In terms of the viewing glass I am sure he is correct - hard to focus with ANY system
Try before you buy !
SMM
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Dear Bill,
I shall inform, in a special tread and in detail about the new SB eMotion 54 LV and SB eMotion 75 L before Monday: it was my intention to do so, since yesterday has been released the official annoucement from Sinar to all our distributors worldwide.
I shall inform about the different versions available and the upgrade possibilities.
However, I could then only give a rough estimate of the prices for the above backs and upgrades, since these vary from one country to another.
- SB eVolution is in its final beta-testing stage with o-series: first units to be seen during the PIE exhibition in Tokyo JP, from March 22nd to 25th. Serial units to be available most probably by end of May.
- Exposure software : no date yet for the release, although I know that it was planed for the 1Q. I shall inform as soon as I know.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
Please post publicly here about:
- availability and pricing of LV versions of eMotion, and what promotions.
- same for eVolution75 and eXposure software.
Thank you,
Billy
Matt L,
Please also chime in.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104174\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Sam,
it is more easy to use as you think, believe me. And I am sure some users of this configuration on this forum can confirm (some have even done so a few posts above). I am not used to speak here about sales arguments, butto tell and to inform about what is possible, the possible configurations and aplications, and the limitations, if there are. And more importantly: I have worked for years with it.
HOWEVER: I never said that the p2 is the most convenient system to go out in the field. And the p3 is as well rather a digital version of the p2 for studio work. The question at the begining of the tread was about the possibility to use the p2 with digital backs, and how this works.
As such, these cameras cannot compare with an Alpa, which has a complete different use.
Best regards,
Thierry
I am still very suspect of using those wides on ANY view camera system
For MOST WA architecture shot only rise and fall is used
Cameras such as alpa/horseman with no tilt will keep the lense parrealel to the 'film' plane because they dont move from parralell
One block of metal is bound to be more rigid than the finest bellows aragngement regardless of make
As far I I can work out upgrading to a P3 which will be more rigid than a P2 is as expensive as a horseman SWA kit
And with horseman thay can can be used with good ol copals that will save a few more $$$$
I would keep the P2 for longer lenses such as 100 where swings and tilts come into thier own
In terms of the viewing glass I am sure he is correct - hard to focus with ANY system
Try before you buy !
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104224\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I am not used to speak here about sales arguments
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104229\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe you arent but I am !
The thing is cost is a big factor
I DO have a P2 now as does the OP
I love my P2 (for tabletop)
I am looking for ways to get wide with rise and fall and the quality of non retrofocal lenses
It would seem sensible to explore using our current equipment for new requirements
Upgrading my P2 is one of those options but it has to stack up in $ againt the competition
Judging from Lastra's website it does not appear to stack up financially
Eg a P3 bearer is £1503.00 (wou need 2) while teamwork have a whole NEW P3 at £3672
So basically why bother uprading a P2
At robertwhite a horseman SWD is listed at £3,315 INCLUDING a 24 lens !!!
And a SWD is more rigid with no tilt
I would there for recomend the OP goes down that route for whide lenses while keeping the P2 for longer which I think is a great tool above say 65mm contrary to what other posters say
SMM
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Sam, I think you are making more sense than anyone else here with regards to the P2.
For studio work and lenses longer than 47mm, one can use either a direct adapter (from Cambo, Leaf and KG that are being produced for various back mounts) with Live Video (if the back offers it) or a sliding back (from Cambo, Plaubel, Mergin-X, KG, Linhoff, ECO Digital...again with various back mounts) and a ground glass.
47mm is barely focusable with the gearing mechanism. Other cameras such as the Linhoff M679, Cambo Ultima 23D and the Arca Swiss M/F line, allow more accuracy and shorter distances between the front and rear standards, so if pushed that allow the use of wider lenses, even with a sliding back.
The Arca F and the Linhoff will still give some limited tilt/ swing, even with 35mm and 38mm.
Anything wider, I would go with a WA camera such as the Cambo WD-S, ALPA or Horseman SWD.
Yair
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Thierry,
Please post publicly here about:
- availability and pricing of LV versions of eMotion, and what promotions.
- same for eVolution75 and eXposure software.
Thank you,
Billy
Matt L,
Please also chime in.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104174\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Billy,
Thierry's responses are pretty much inline with what we have been told.
April will see the Emotion LV backs start to ship. Should have pricing this week ...
May will see the Evolution backs start to ship. Price is $32,000 US.
June is the projected date for EXposure software.
Obviously we are at the mercy of the factories, but those are the dates we have been given at the moment.
Thanks,
Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 670-9905
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Dear Sam,
It seems that you misunderstand what I was saying about upgrading a p2 to a p3: you DO NOT have to change the "BEARERS"!!!
You ONLY have to change the "FRAMES of your p2: that is a big and huge difference in pricing!
The bearer is the most pricy part of the camera, not the frame.
Best regards,
Thierry
Upgrading my P2 is one of those options but it has to stack up in $ againt the competition
Judging from Lastra's website it does not appear to stack up financially
Eg a P3 bearer is £1503.00 (wou need 2) while teamwork have a whole NEW P3 at £3672
So basically why bother uprading a P2
At robertwhite a horseman SWD is listed at £3,315 INCLUDING a 24 lens !!!
And a SWD is more rigid with no tilt
I would there for recomend the OP goes down that route for whide lenses while keeping the P2 for longer which I think is a great tool above say 65mm contrary to what other posters say
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104266\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It seems that you misunderstand what I was saying about upgrading a p2 to a p3: you DO NOT have to change the "BEARERS"!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104353\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Interesting
That is why is is good you being here on this forum
Becuase no UK dealer that I know has a clear website for the sinar system
I stand corrected a P2 - P3 kit change is around £1100
no idea if this includes Wide andgle Bag or a H1-> sinar plate (doubt it)
(still around the price of a Horseman)
So can you mount a 28 with a copal shutter this way
SMM
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Dear Yaya,
I would like to answer here and put in doubt your claim, that it is barely not focusable with the gearing mechanism of the p2 and when using a shorter lens than the 47mm.
Our live video does allow precise and accurate focusing, with any lens in our sortiment: again, I am speaking here from experience and after having worked on such configurations for years back (and still am).
Shorter distance or not betwen the standards is not the question: it is possible to focus at infinity with any digital lens mount on the p2, included the 28mm. That was the question asked and which I answered in detail. And this also WITH a sliding adapter, since this one is mounted exactly in the same image plane as the 4x5" frame of the p2 (allowing 2-points Scheimpflug and sharpness plane adjustments like on the p2 analog).
I think anyone working with the p2 digital can only confirm that (see comments from users above).
BUT, I also said that the gear mechanism has to be in good conditions and well adjusted, which can be done in any Sinar servicing station).
Bets regards,
Thierry
47mm is barely focusable with the gearing mechanism. Other cameras such as the Linhoff M679, Cambo Ultima 23D and the Arca Swiss M/F line, allow more accuracy and shorter distances between the front and rear standards, so if pushed that allow the use of wider lenses, even with a sliding back.
The Arca F and the Linhoff will still give some limited tilt/ swing, even with 35mm and 38mm.
Anything wider, I would go with a WA camera such as the Cambo WD-S, ALPA or Horseman SWD.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104279\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Sam,
Yes, it is this way you can mount a 28mm with a Copal shutter.
Pricing: I cannot speak here, since price vary from one country to another. All I wanted to say, is that it is never such expensive as changing the bearers (this part of the camera, p2 or p3 is the most expensive part).
Bets regards,
Thierry
Interesting
That is why is is good you being here on this forum
Becuase no UK dealer that I know has a clear website for the sinar system
I stand corrected a P2 - P3 kit change is around £1100
no idea if this includes Wide andgle Bag or a H1-> sinar plate (doubt it)
(still around the price of a Horseman)
So can you mount a 28 with a copal shutter this way
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104355\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
I appreciate your experience with using Sinar backs on P2, however what people here are trying to acertain is if one can mount A digital back on a P2 with off-the-shelf copal shutter lenses (APO-Digitar 35mm, Super-Angulon 38mm etc.), without having to take/send the camera to go through surgery (and an expensive one that is). This was also the question coming from the OP.
The P2 is a fantastic camera for working in the studio with normal and long FL lenses, with or without Live Video, but unfortunately for wider lenses it doesn't offer the same level of rigidness and accuracy as the newer generation of 6X9 cameras.
Like yourself, I have customers working with many different backs on many different cameras and in my experience, when it comes to WA, they all choose to leave the P2 behind.
Yair
Dear Yaya,
I would like to answer here and put in doubt your claim, that it is barely not focusable with the gearing mechanism of the p2 and when using a shorter lens than the 47mm.
Our live video does allow precise and accurate focusing, with any lens in our sortiment: again, I am speaking here from experience and after having worked on such configurations for years back (and still am).
Shorter distance or not betwen the standards is not the question: it is possible to focus at infinity with any digital lens mount on the p2, included the 28mm. That was the question asked and which I answered in detail. And this also WITH a sliding adapter, since this one is mounted exactly in the same image plane as the 4x5" frame of the p2 (allowing 2-points Scheimpflug and sharpness plane adjustments like on the p2 analog).
I think anyone working with the p2 digital can only confirm that (see comments from users above).
BUT, I also said that the gear mechanism has to be in good conditions and well adjusted, which can be done in any Sinar servicing station).
Bets regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104356\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Yaya,
thanks for your comment.
Actually, that was not the initial question, to which I have tried to give answer, means if one can mount copal shutter lenses, but one of the possibilities among others which I have described in an earlier post above. And it was not and never the question if the p2 ist the most convenient choice with WA and outside the studio. Better to leave the choice and the decision to the endusers.
Again: I do not claim that the p2 is the best in any situation or outside the studio, but that IT IS possible to use it in any of the mentioned and described configurations and that it is possible to reach and set an accurate focus with it with the live video feature, with any of the digital (or not digital) lenses listed in our products line. I am trying to give all possible solutions to a customer owing a p2 camera and what he can do (or not do) with this camera to get the maximum out of it and not leaving it on the shelves. Period.
"Surgery": most of our customers take good care of their p2 and equipment in general, and don't need to service their 2 to become digital. A "surgery" is never necessary, unless you have dropped the camera: May be an adjustment of the gears, which is an easy and non-costy service. Having said that,I wouldn't ever allow myself to comment and judge prices of repairing or servicing a Leaf back, when needed, and if it would make more sense to change it to another product.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I appreciate your experience with using Sinar backs on P2, however what people here are trying to acertain is if one can mount A digital back on a P2 with off-the-shelf copal shutter lenses (APO-Digitar 35mm, Super-Angulon 38mm etc.), without having to take/send the camera to go through surgery (and an expensive one that is). This was also the question coming from the OP.
The P2 is a fantastic camera for working in the studio with normal and long FL lenses, with or without Live Video, but unfortunately for wider lenses it doesn't offer the same level of rigidness and accuracy as the newer generation of 6X9 cameras.
Like yourself, I have customers working with many different backs on many different cameras and in my experience, when it comes to WA, they all choose to leave the P2 behind.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry, no need to be so defensive,
You are assuming that I'm trying to diss your product...well I'm not!!
You should know well enough that there are thousands of non-Sinar backs out there that are mounted on P2, P, F and Norma cameras.
Many (most?) of these backs use the Sinarcam I and DB lenses/ shutter controllers very reliably and successfuly since 1996 (Leaf DCB II Live).
Still, if you go back to the 1st post on this thread, the question was about using digital backs on P2 and using 24mm and 28mm on it with digital backs.
You gave your input about using Sinar backs on the P2 and I'm giving my input about using other backs on it.
A bog standard P2 with standard lens boards and direct or sliding adapters is very difficult to use with these lenses, unless the camera goes through the modifications that you have described i.e. behind-the-lens shutter, remote triggering etc.
Yair
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Yaya, I'm certainly not on the defensive side.
You are suggesting again something in the end of your post below: that the p2 needs a modification, which is absolutely the wrong wording and misleading readers. There is no modification needed.
That it is very difficult to use is obvioulsy something which on we disagree.
I have in the contrary the feeling that you are on the offensive each and any time you have the opportunity to do so against others not in your camp.
I simply find your style and suggestions a bit displaced: suggesting that a Sinar p2 needs surgery and that this is expensive and that there are better ways to go is not in your attributes, IMO.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, no need to be so defensive,
You are assuming that I'm trying to diss your product...well I'm not!!
You should know well enough that there are thousands of non-Sinar backs out there that are mounted on P2, P, F and Norma cameras.
Many (most?) of these backs use the Sinarcam I and DB lenses/ shutter controllers very reliably and successfuly since 1996 (Leaf DCB II Live).
Still, if you go back to the 1st post on this thread, the question was about using digital backs on P2 and using 24mm and 28mm on it with digital backs.
You gave your input about using Sinar backs on the P2 and I'm giving my input about using other backs on it.
A bog standard P2 with standard lens boards and direct or sliding adapters is very difficult to use with these lenses, unless the camera goes through the modifications that you have described i.e. behind-the-lens shutter, remote triggering etc.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I hear you...by "camp" you mean those who dare using a back other than yours on your cameras?
I don't belong to any "camp" when it comes to cameras and I turst my experience for giving a solid and un-biased advice.
I have given my comments on the use of 3rd party backs on the P2 and as far as modifications go, these are YOUR words, not mine:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=104217 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15086&view=findpost&p=104217)
I also don't think that the way this discussion progresses helps the OP in choosing his route, therefore I suggest that we both give it a rest.
Yair
I have in the contrary the feeling that you are on the offensive each and any time you have the opportunity to do so against others not in your camp.
I simply find your style and suggestions a bit displaced: suggesting that a Sinar p2 needs surgery and that this is expensive and that there are better ways to go is not in your attributes, IMO.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104367\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Personally I am not experienced with smaller view camera 69 style
But I think theyare all bound to lead to trouble with ultra wides when trying to keep the 'film' and lens plane perfectly parrallel
As I have said I am not that interested in tilting ultra wides only rise and fall
A rigid camera that does not offer tilt will be more rigid than any camera that offers tilt
I personally would not think that the OP needs to swap from thier P2 to another view camera
He needs to understand the limitations of all view cameras and use the very nice one he has now within its limitations
I think the upgrade to the P3 bearers would be a whorthwhile value because the smaller size will lead to greater precision as there is less leverage on the shorter bearers - basic engineering fact
Incedentally I still like the larger format view camera becuse you can make amazing stitched images with it and a SBA
T - no-one thinks sinar are no good - just the correct tool for which job - I would imagine a P3 offers simlar quality to many other small view camera
SMM
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Yaya,
You should know me well enough for not and never letting things be said which are purposely said in a wrong way or with the wrong words.
I do not deny you the right to speak about other solutions or other ways to do, or other possibilities: this is absolutely approriate and right on this forum. But I shall deny and react each time when wrong things are claimed or when words are purposely misused to denigrate a product:
- "barely focusable"
- "more accuracy"
- "without having to take/send the camera to go through surgery"
- "and an expensive one that is"
- "the p2 doesn't offer the same level of rigidness"
- "they all choose to leave the P2 behind"
- "Many (most?) of these backs use ..." It really doesn't need the comment "(most?)"
Well, what should I say about your above comments? That they are right? That they are accurate and telling the truth? Certainly not.
Be right and neutral, and choose your words in an adequate way to avoid to mislead, that's all what I am asking for.
No, by "camp" I don't mean that, but I mean and speak about yourself. English is not my mother language, but I am fit enough to know what I am writing and you probably as well: why do you need to change the meaning and suggest different things? It is quite obvious that each time you can say something against Sinar you do it, not only with myself: should I post the links as well to remind you about all of it?
Well, I am neither in a special camp, but the one of the photography which I love, and I don't think you have found me speaking in a wrong way about another product: when I don't know I do not write. I do not even wish to speak about the negative sides of others or point them out: not my style.
I don't quite understand the meaning of posting the link of my post: everybody can read what I have written and informed by going a few posts higher in this tread. And what I have written is simply the way to use the p2 and what can be done/achieved with it: nowhere is there question of "surgery", "modifications", etc.. which you suggest are necessary to make it possible to work with the p2. And you are using the word "modifications" once again below! There is none such modifications to be done.
I am sorry, but I have said it clearly when I joined LLF, that the reason why I was joining is to inform ( as rightly as possible) and to help where I can, but also to put things right when presented the wrong way. I shall do so each time when I judge it necessary, as here.
I shall give it a rest as soon as wrong things are put rightly.
Thanks to understand my position.
Best regards,
Thierry
I hear you...by "camp" you mean those who dare using a back other than yours on your cameras?
I don't belong to any "camp" when it comes to cameras and I turst my experience for giving a solid and un-biased advice.
I have given my comments on the use of 3rd party backs on the P2 and as far as modifications go, these are YOUR words, not mine:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=104217 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15086&view=findpost&p=104217)
I also don't think that the way this discussion progresses helps the OP in choosing his route, therefore I suggest that we both give it a rest.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104369\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hello again:
I appreciate all the comments my initial question received. I guess it got more argumentative than my question was supposed to but that's why we live in a free society... a few beers and all is forgotten until the next time.
I do have a question to the person who says the p2 is not "rigid" enough for using a 24-28 lens.
What do you mean by the term rigid? My p2 camera locks up tightly when I want it to. Are you saying that the bellows bag, whichever one you need to use with those lenses, forces the swings, tilts and standards apart even though they are locked?
If the above is the case, do you have any experience with the p3 relative to this problem you mentioned? Based on your experience with other view cameras, do any others have similiar problems? How do other view cameras handle the setting and firing of lenses like the 24-28 type? Do they all use lens mounting versions similiar to Sinar?
Now, some additional questions to the gentleman from Sinar:
I'm wondering about this Live Video focusing idea. I was unable to get much information from your website on this. Does the chip allow for video feeds under modeling light conditions or is this a "hot" light shooting environment? Is it strong enough to allow stopping down of the lens and see an image? In researching previous forum messages, several pointed out using a ND filter when using Live Video outside. Sinar's answer to that problem was another attachment that must act like an automatic iris outside to use in place of ND filters; is that correct? If correct, how does it mount and roughly what's it's cost?
Since I do a lot of productions, both still and video, outside the studio, I have some real concerns about video focusing in sunlight. It's one thing to put an art director under a tent or looking through a cover on my laptop but it's quite another to have a photographer looking inside this monitor shield and handling the knobs on a view camera at the same time. Time is always a problem on shoots anymore, we have to get in, get it shot and get out. I have some serious doubts believing this Live Video helps rather than hurts my shooting time concerns.
Thanks to all for taking time to answer,
Paul
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Dear Paul,
I just had my couple of beers, and am fine now!
The Live Video feature on Sinarbacks works that way: the CCD is used as a video chip and constantly activated as long as the live video feature is on. It can be used without ND filters and without Sinar's so-called LC-shutter (Liquid Christal shutter), but in this case the light needs to be dimmed down and the image produced is far from perfect. For a "perfect", clear and high-quality live video image, we recommend the use of the LC-shutter. This shutter closes a few times each second to avoid the light falling constantly on the CCD and saturating it, thus "smearing" the image and reducing its quality. Modelling lights used in a studio environment are exactly what is used to get the live image.
Yes, it is possible to stop down the lens and get a perfect image: the system used will compensate automatically the reduction of light and give you a clear image.
Further: the Captureshop software has some built-in features which allows you to control brightness and contrast of your live image, as well as a "loupe function" at 100% when focusing. This focusing help will tell you when the point is absolutely sharp by analyzing the contrast and indicating you the sharpness with a "number" (the higher the more sharp) and a visual "bar" (the longer the more sharp). In other words, no need to actually check the point to be in focus with your eyes: you can as well check and make sure of the sharpness by focusing until the highest "number" or longest "bar" is reached.
Important remark and advice: since the live video feature keeps the CCD constantly activated, the sensor heats up, obviously. It is in this case necessary to perform a so-called Black Reference before the actual image capture, to eliminate the residual noise created by the heating. This makes sure to get a perfect and noise-free image (the same shoud actually be done for long exposure times). This process takes a few seconds, depending on the selected exposure time.
The LC-shutter is fixed in front of the lens by means of a lens adapter ring of the right diameter and which can be ordered separately. This shutter is then connected to a lens plug (for CMV, CAB and CPL lens on the p3 and f3) and connects directly through the cameras contacts built into the bellows, directly to the back and then to the computer.
The same LC-shutter can be used on a view camera (p, p2 or f2) with Copal Automatic Aperture shutter or with Lenses using Copal shutters.
Price of the LC-shutter: our enduser price in Switzerland is Euro 1'550.- Please note that this price can vary from one country to another.
I agree with your concerns concerning the use of the Live Video under daylight or sunny conditions. The quality of the video image produced with the LC-shutter is a high quality detailled image. However, outside and with sunny or bright light conditions it is as difficult to judge this image as it is for any normal image on the computer screen. To judge it and to focus might be very difficult or impossible without covering your monitor and protecting it from the light (the mentioned "Focusing Help" feature in Captureshop can help here). As you say it, it is helping and possible, but will probably cost you a bit longer time. The other solution in this case is to use the sliding adapter and adjust/focus on the groundglass.
Feel free to ask, should you have other questions.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hello again:
Now, some additional questions to the gentleman from Sinar:
I'm wondering about this Live Video focusing idea. I was unable to get much information from your website on this. Does the chip allow for video feeds under modeling light conditions or is this a "hot" light shooting environment? Is it strong enough to allow stopping down of the lens and see an image? In researching previous forum messages, several pointed out using a ND filter when using Live Video outside. Sinar's answer to that problem was another attachment that must act like an automatic iris outside to use in place of ND filters; is that correct? If correct, how does it mount and roughly what's it's cost?
Since I do a lot of productions, both still and video, outside the studio, I have some real concerns about video focusing in sunlight. It's one thing to put an art director under a tent or looking through a cover on my laptop but it's quite another to have a photographer looking inside this monitor shield and handling the knobs on a view camera at the same time. Time is always a problem on shoots anymore, we have to get in, get it shot and get out. I have some serious doubts believing this Live Video helps rather than hurts my shooting time concerns.
Thanks to all for taking time to answer,
Paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104402\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Paul,
It seems that anything I point out in public on this forum is immediately taken as a bash against product X or Y, regardless of whether the points I bring make sense or not...
As many before have already stated, there is nothing like 1st hand experience, so I suggest that you ask your local Sinar dealer for a demonstration on YOUR P2 with WA lenses. This should give you a much better idea than anything we say here, with regards to rigidness/ accuracy/ viability of any add-ons etc.
As far as using recent LEAF backs on a P2, one can purchase a Graflok adapter through Leaf and use Live Video for composition and focusing. Live Video only works when tethered to a Mac and if used outdoors, we recommend using ND filters. Another option is buying a sliding back and using the GG for comp/ focus.
With both options I would not advise going wider than 47mm.
PM or email me if you would like me to help in arranging a Leaf demo for you.
Best regards
Yair
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Yaya,
Not exactly ANYTHING is taken as a bash, ONLY when wrongly stated or misleading comments are made on a product which I know for using it. I believe you understand the difference.
I appreciate your knowledge and professionalism, like all here on LLF, but cannot accept such misguidances as above.
You might have your experience and opinion if something is better to do it in a way or another, that is highly respected, but can simply not use the words like in your posts above.
I am sorry if I insit, but it is important for me.
Best regards,
Thierry
It seems that anything I point out in public on this forum is immediately taken as a bash against product X or Y, regardless of whether the points I bring make sense or not...
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry, we can argue all day here about who's got more experience with this camera or that back...you live in your world and I live in mine and I guess we are both right in our respective worlds.
The truth however (for Paul), will be in the pudding when he gets to try the various solutions on his camera. and nothing that you and I say here is going to affect his experience.
Yair
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do have a question to the person who says the p2 is not "rigid" enough for using a 24-28 lens.
What do you mean by the term rigid?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104402\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Say you are trying to just rise to photograph a building you want the front and rear standard both absolutely vertical
Lets say the front standard of the P2 is not at 90 degrees (vertical) but at 89.95 degrees
This will not show with 54 film but will make a visible difference with such a sensitive lens as a 24 or 28 when you blow up the smaller image to the same enlargement
This is not only true for the sinar but all 54 view cameras
Say (and I cant be bothered to do the maths) this might lead to a .5 mm misalignment with a 54 bearer but this same inaccuacy will only lead to say a 0.2 mm misalignment with the smaller P3 bearer due to the chip being nearer to the fulcrum of the lever (the tilt mechanisms rotational point)
I dont now about your P2 but mine is pretty beat up and a bit wobbly in most movements
Cameras like alpa DONT tilt so will not gain a sloppy tilt
The wider the lens the shorter focus throw (say a movement of 3mm might focus a 24 from 1m (a disater ) to infinity whereas a focus throw of 3mm on a 200mm might move the focus from infinity to 100meters - not a disaster)
This leads to higher tolerances being required for shorter lenses and for those two lenses mixed with the resolution of digital capture the tolerances are challenging to all camera platforms
But it is worth trying a nice tight serviced P3 - I may be wrong - as everyone says - go to a dealer and play very carefully
I dont think the P3 is a lot worse in this aspect than other similar designs - its just that the design is not appropriate to the function
SMM
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Yaya, that is absolutely true and I agee with you!
I expect anybody who is ready to invest in digital to try the material out, before buying: your remark is not necessary, I guess. And it is also obvious that for some the p2 solution might be doing the job rightly and for some not at all: different opinions are all depending on the different individuals and their needs.
Once again: I have answered questions which have been asked to me, and I have answered to you, not because you are claiming that the p2 is not the right tool to go outside or because you have presented other solutions and in your eyes better ways for using short lenses, but for the reasons you exactly now. If you would have stick to this, without using words which have no place in an opinion from a Leaf rep, then I would not even have answered to you.
I did NOT claim that the p2 is the best and most convenient tool to shoot on location (and even said that it might NOT be so in one of my post) with short focal length lenses, simply that it is possible and informed rightly how this can be done, without "surgery", without "expensive" costs, without "modifications": one can make use of the existing Copal lens, or one can make use of the existing Copal Automatic Aperture shutter, one can make use of the p2 without a single surgery or modification and without "expensive" costs. Period.
It amazes me how you are distorting things and try to insinuate things which I did not even suggest, like here again. I truely expect not to be distorted in any way and continuously. As long as this is not the case I shall put it right.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, we can argue all day here about who's got more experience with this camera or that back...you live in your world and I live in mine and I guess we are both right in our respective worlds.
The truth however (for Paul), will be in the pudding when he gets to try the various solutions on his camera. and nothing that you and I say here is going to affect his experience.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104424\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry, I don't think we're getting anywhere here...
To bring us back on track and instead of just throwing stones back at me, maybe you can explain, with a technical drawing, how one can mount a brand new 24mm Digitar (set in a Copal 0 shutter) on a bog standard, 10 year old P2 (original bearers/ frames/ bag bellows/ lensboards) and focus it at infinity with a 36X48 or 37X49 chip.
If you could also attach some images taken with this configuration and part numbers/ prices of any necessary items that need to be added/ changed that would be very helpful.
I happen to have several prospects who shoot interiors and before buying a new camera they would first like to know if their P2 can be used.
You must understand that I am on your side (or rather on the end user side) and my advice to anyone buying a new digital back is first to try your existing camera and lenses, before shelling out for a complete new kit.
As I previously stated, the P2 is a fantastic camera for digital studio work with normal and long FL lenses. It will be of great help to know if/ how/ how much this camera can be used successfuly with WA lenses.
Many thanks for your input
Yair
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Dear Yaya,
I'm always ready to help and prefer as well rather to speak about photography.
I have actually already answered your questions below, in this tread. Here my different posts on the subject:
Post N°4 (March 1st):
"Digital lenses from 28mm up to 210 mm can be used"
Post N° 9 (March 1st):
the 28mm is no problem, and can be used as well on any Sinar camera, p, p2 or 3.
The problem is the 24mm: I am pretty sure that this lens might have vignetting at infinity and with the 48x36mm (eMotions) and the 49x36.7mm sensors (SB 54 H and SB 54M).
I shall get advice from our product manager and confirm this as soon as possible.
Post N° 11 (March 02nd):
"The 24mm is from Schneider and can be mount on a Sinar lens mount for p2 with Schneider or Rollei shutter (possibly also in Copal mount on request): this 24mm lens has an angle of 100° with an image circle of 60mm and therefore it would very slightly be vigneting at infinity"
I thought I had explained that it is not possible with this lens of 24mm to focus at infinity without vigneting (Image Circle of 60mm vs a Diagonal of 61mm with the 22MPx33MPx from Dalsa (eMotion 22, eMotion 75 and eVolution 75) and 62 mm with the 33MPx from Kodak (SB 54 S, SB 54 H and SB 54 MC or M).
There was thereafter no question anymore about this lens in particular, and the discussion continued with the digital 28mm HR lens.
So in my opinion, it is clear that the 24mm cannot be used on a p2 without vigneting.
I hope this answers fully.
Thanks to you too and best regards,
Thierry
maybe you can explain, with a technical drawing, how one can mount a brand new 24mm Digitar (set in a Copal 0 shutter) on a bog standard, 10 year old P2 (original bearers/ frames/ bag bellows/ lensboards) and focus it at infinity with a 36X48 or 37X49 chip.
If you could also attach some images taken with this configuration and part numbers/ prices of any necessary items that need to be added/ changed that would be very helpful.
I happen to have several prospects who shoot interiors and before buying a new camera they would first like to know if their P2 can be used.
You must understand that I am on your side (or rather on the end user side) and my advice to anyone buying a new digital back is first to try your existing camera and lenses, before shelling out for a complete new kit.
As I previously stated, the P2 is a fantastic camera for digital studio work with normal and long FL lenses. It will be of great help to know if/ how/ how much this camera can be used successfuly with WA lenses.
Many thanks for your input
Yair
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Say you are trying to just rise to photograph a building you want the front and rear standard both absolutely vertical
Lets say the front standard of the P2 is not at 90 degrees (vertical) but at 89.95 degrees
This will not show with 54 film but will make a visible difference with such a sensitive lens as a 24 or 28 when you blow up the smaller image to the same enlargement
This is not only true for the sinar but all 54 view cameras
Say (and I cant be bothered to do the maths) this might lead to a .5 mm misalignment with a 54 bearer but this same inaccuacy will only lead to say a 0.2 mm misalignment with the smaller P3 bearer due to the chip being nearer to the fulcrum of the lever (the tilt mechanisms rotational point)
I dont now about your P2 but mine is pretty beat up and a bit wobbly in most movements
Cameras like alpa DONT tilt so will not gain a sloppy tilt
The wider the lens the shorter focus throw (say a movement of 3mm might focus a 24 from 1m (a disater ) to infinity whereas a focus throw of 3mm on a 200mm might move the focus from infinity to 100meters - not a disaster)
This leads to higher tolerances being required for shorter lenses and for those two lenses mixed with the resolution of digital capture the tolerances are challenging to all camera platforms
But it is worth trying a nice tight serviced P3 - I may be wrong - as everyone says - go to a dealer and play very carefully
I dont think the P3 is a lot worse in this aspect than other similar designs - its just that the design is not appropriate to the function
SMM
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Hello:
What you described made perfect sense and might help explain the "rigid" problem refered to by the other gentleman. Even though I sent my P2 in for a tune-up and currently use the rear standard, modified for my 35 digital, for studio work, time makes all things loose. The hair, on top of my head, loosens up all the time and falls out.
Thanks,
Paul
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Thanks Thierry,
I'm not sure about the 24mm...I've used it on both the ALPA XY and the Cambo WD-S aithout vignetting while focused to infinity (no shift).
My question is can this lens be focused to infinity on the P2? Vignetting or not? Without having to use a special shutter configuration?
I also don't understand the "can be mounted on request" thing...AFAIK, one can buy Schneider and/or Rodenstock lenses through various suppliers or directly from the manufacturers and can choose the shutter configuration (Copal/ Schneider/ Rollei) uppon ordering. I don't know the Copal as being "on request"...
Thanks again,
Yair
Dear Yaya,
I'm always ready to help and prefer as well rather to speak about photography.
I have actually already answered your questions below, in this tread. Here my different posts on the subject:
Post N°4 (March 1st):
"Digital lenses from 28mm up to 210 mm can be used"
Post N° 9 (March 1st):
the 28mm is no problem, and can be used as well on any Sinar camera, p, p2 or 3.
The problem is the 24mm: I am pretty sure that this lens might have vignetting at infinity and with the 48x36mm (eMotions) and the 49x36.7mm sensors (SB 54 H and SB 54M).
I shall get advice from our product manager and confirm this as soon as possible.
Post N° 11 (March 02nd):
"The 24mm is from Schneider and can be mount on a Sinar lens mount for p2 with Schneider or Rollei shutter (possibly also in Copal mount on request): this 24mm lens has an angle of 100° with an image circle of 60mm and therefore it would very slightly be vigneting at infinity"
I thought I had explained that it is not possible with this lens of 24mm to focus at infinity without vigneting (Image Circle of 60mm vs a Diagonal of 61mm with the 22MPx33MPx from Dalsa (eMotion 22, eMotion 75 and eVolution 75) and 62 mm with the 33MPx from Kodak (SB 54 S, SB 54 H and SB 54 MC or M).
There was thereafter no question anymore about this lens in particular, and the discussion continued with the digital 28mm HR lens.
So in my opinion, it is clear that the 24mm cannot be used on a p2 without vigneting.
I hope this answers fully.
Thanks to you too and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104558\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Yaya,
Nothing to thank.
I must be honest and say that I did not further check and look for information about this 24mm lens, after my last post on it.
And I must be honest to say that I have obviously not tried this lens myself.
I will have to check in details with our product manager about the possibility to be mounted on the p2: he was thinking yes, that it might be possible. But this has to be confirmed, therefore I wrote "possibly .... on request", with "possibly" and "on request" refering to Sinar and the p2. I shall check it out, if you wish. As for vigneting: the Dalsa sensor might be on the very limit of vigneting, depending on the f-stop used. I guess you did use a Dalsa sensor? Which aperture?
Let me some time to check it out in detail for you tomorrow.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thanks Thierry,
I'm not sure about the 24mm...I've used it on both the ALPA XY and the Cambo WD-S aithout vignetting while focused to infinity (no shift).
My question is can this lens be focused to infinity on the P2? Vignetting or not? Without having to use a special shutter configuration?
I also don't understand the "can be mounted on request" thing...AFAIK, one can buy Schneider and/or Rodenstock lenses through various suppliers or directly from the manufacturers and can choose the shutter configuration (Copal/ Schneider/ Rollei) uppon ordering. I don't know the Copal as being "on request"...
Thanks again,
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104571\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear all,
I use the 24mm on an Alpa XY with an Apus 75, I can shift 3-4mm with centerfilter, focus at infinity, without vigneting at appeture 11 - and yes, this lens, and setup is very well performing in every way.
Very best,
Adam
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Yaya,
here the information you wished to have about the Schneider Digitar 24mm.
The information about image circle of 60mm and that a 22 MPx sensor with 61.2mm diagonal would be vigneting comes from Schneider themselves: they even have a drawing in their brochure showing that.
However, after checking and speaking to somebody from Schneider, we have been told that the image circle has an effective calculated diameter of 60mm and that the resolution is decreasing below the limit, but not the luminosity: which is why the vigneting is not seen. But obviously, no shift is possible.
This information all comes from Schneider.
Then, and about this lens on a p2:
- the Schneider 24mm Digitar is availabe in Rollei, Schneider and Copal shutters (Copal is not mentioned in their brochures).
- the lens is mounted on a 40mm recessed lensboard by Schneider, which allows to mount it on the p2, in front of the lens standard, and can then be focused at infinity.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thanks Thierry,
I'm not sure about the 24mm...I've used it on both the ALPA XY and the Cambo WD-S aithout vignetting while focused to infinity (no shift).
My question is can this lens be focused to infinity on the P2? Vignetting or not? Without having to use a special shutter configuration?
I also don't understand the "can be mounted on request" thing...AFAIK, one can buy Schneider and/or Rodenstock lenses through various suppliers or directly from the manufacturers and can choose the shutter configuration (Copal/ Schneider/ Rollei) uppon ordering. I don't know the Copal as being "on request"...
Thanks again,
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104571\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks for the info Thierry, much appreciated!
So the recessed lensboard need to be ordered from Shcneider or it this a Sinar item?
BTW the 24mm in Copal #0 is listed on Schneider's website: http://tinyurl.com/yqdkok (http://tinyurl.com/yqdkok)
Cheers
yair
Yaya,
here the information you wished to have about the Schneider Digitar 24mm.
The information about image circle of 60mm and that a 22 MPx sensor with 61.2mm diagonal would be vigneting comes from Schneider themselves: they even have a drawing in their brochure showing that.
However, after checking and speaking to somebody from Schneider, we have been told that the image circle has an effective calculated diameter of 60mm and that the resolution is decreasing below the limit, but not the luminosity: which is why the vigneting is not seen. But obviously, no shift is possible.
This information all comes from Schneider.
Then, and about this lens on a p2:
- the Schneider 24mm Digitar is availabe in Rollei, Schneider and Copal shutters (Copal is not mentioned in their brochures).
- the lens is mounted on a 40mm recessed lensboard by Schneider, which allows to mount it on the p2, in front of the lens standard, and can then be focused at infinity.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104753\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Welcome!
Yes, you have to order from Schneider and tell them for which camera (p2), and they shall mount it on the recessed lensboard.
Thanks for the info about Schneider's website: I guess our guys checked at the German one.
Addendum:
Hoops! I just see that it is the German one!
Nice day,
Thierry
Thanks for the info Thierry, much appreciated!
So the recessed lensboard need to be ordered from Shcneider or it this a Sinar item?
BTW the 24mm in Copal #0 is listed on Schneider's website: http://tinyurl.com/yqdkok (http://tinyurl.com/yqdkok)
Cheers
yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104756\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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However, after checking and speaking to somebody from Schneider, we have been told that the image circle has an effective calculated diameter of 60mm and that the resolution is decreasing below the limit, but not the luminosity: which is why the vigneting is not seen. But obviously, no shift is possible
Dear Thierry
When you talk with somebody from Schneider next time, you can pass the information that it is practical possible to shift the 24mm 3-4mm on the Dalsa sensor, I do this on an almost daily basis, with good results.
Maybe it's like the bumblebee
I have posted a screen dump as an example with the 24mm shifted about 3 mm; there is also a 100% crop of the top left corner. The corner is not as sharp as the centre but still usable.
The 3-4 mm of shift doesn’t sound of much, but still very useful.
Best regards
Adam
[attachment=2027:attachment][attachment=2028:attachment]
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Thank you Adam!
Sure, 3 or 4 mm is a lot for architecture work: definitively useful.
And the corners don't look that bad, from what I can see.
I shall inform our people who have the contacts with Schneider. This is indeed usefull information and good to know.
Do you by chance have any experience with the slightly bigger Kodak 22 MPx sensor (49x37mm)? Should the same way offer in this case a little shift.
Thanks for your information,
Thierry
Dear Thierry
When you talk with somebody from Schneider next time, you can pass the information that it is practical possible to shift the 24mm 3-4mm on the Dalsa sensor, I do this on an almost daily basis, with good results.
Maybe it's like the bumblebee
I have posted a screen dump as an example with the 24mm shifted about 3 mm; there is also a 100% crop of the top left corner. The corner is not as sharp as the centre but still usable.
The 3-4 mm of shift doesn’t sound of much, but still very useful.
Best regards
Adam
[attachment=2027:attachment][attachment=2028:attachment]
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the corner looks still good and certainly very usuable. maybe i would go for it in addition to the 28HR, seeing the good distortion and hearing that 3-4mm shift are still possible in that way... but
its a big drawback from my gottschalt camera that it does not accept the 24xl and 35xl without complicate and expansive exchange of the rotatable frontboard. gottschalt told me that months after i have had the camera. .......
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Do you by chance have any experience with the slightly bigger Kodak 22 MPx sensor (49x37mm)? Should the same way offer in this case a little shift
Dear Thierry
I do not have any experience with the 24xl on the Kodak sensor.
Dear Rainer
It was nice meeting you in Copenhagen and kicking tires
Kind regards
Adam
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Thank you Adam!
Thierry
Dear Thierry
I do not have any experience with the 24xl on the Kodak sensor.
Dear Rainer
It was nice meeting you in Copenhagen and kicking tires
Kind regards
Adam
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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To get back to the question the OP asked: can the pinion of the P2 be considered suitable for use with digital backs, if used with the standard range of lenses in large format professional photography , say 50 to 150 mm ( for DBs ).
Let's not forget that architecture photography is a small niche market, and the 24 - 35 mm range is not used by the majority of LF photographers.
Also, I'm wondering if there really is no difference between the pinion of a P2 and P3; I've been looking for this information for quite some time.
Thanks in advance.
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Dear Fritzer,
the p3 gears are basically the same as on the p2, but adjusted differently: I can get you this info from our product manager, if you wish.
But what I can say for sure: yes, the p2 is doing the job, and IMO even very well.
Best regards,
Thierry
To get back to the question the OP asked: can the pinion of the P2 be considered suitable for use with digital backs, if used with the standard range of lenses in large format professional photography , say 50 to 150 mm ( for DBs ).
Let's not forget that architecture photography is a small niche market, and the 24 - 35 mm range is not used by the majority of LF photographers.
Also, I'm wondering if there really is no difference between the pinion of a P2 and P3; I've been looking for this information for quite some time.
Thanks in advance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105149\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Fritzer,
the p3 gears are basically the same as on the p2, but adjusted differently: I can get you this info from our product manager, if you wish.
But what I can say for sure: yes, the p2 is doing the job, and IMO even very well.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105151\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the reply, Thierry;
I'd appreciate if you could inform me/ us if the gearing of the focusing knobs of the P3 is different from the P2.
I just bought two P2s off Ebay ( to replace my trusty F2s ), which need the usual overhaul of that part, and might consider a modification of the rear standards, if possible and needed .
Also, I'm not familiar with the smaller, digital-specific view cameras, but the P2s work just fine with my Aptus 75 for still life photography, apart from those loose knobs which I need to have adjusted.
The gearing could be a tad finer (term? ) for digital, though.
Plenty stiff, coming from the F2, and certainly stronger than the Cambos, Linhofs and Horsemans I have used over the years.
With the bank holder mounted behind the rear standard, it allows plenty of movement with a 47XL non-digital ( on a slightly recessed board ), more than the digiback tolerates .
Apart from being a terrific tool for my field of work, the use of Sinars 4x5s allows me to rent lenses , bodies and accessories everywhere in the world, if I can't bring all of my equipment , which is crucial for me and might be worth a consideration.
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Welcome Tom!
I shall provide you the informaton about the differences p2/p3: let me some time to get it from our product manager.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thanks for the reply, Thierry;
I'd appreciate if you could inform me/ us if the gearing of the focusing knobs of the P3 is different from the P2.
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Dear Tom,
Here the information you wished to have and concerning the differences between the Sinar p2 and p3:
- the frames are different in size (100mm for the p3) and have built-in eletronical gold contacts
- the vertical shift possibility is about 2 cm less on the p3 (due to a shorther standard)
- the basic extension is a few millimeters shorter due to different "caps" used
- the horizontal shift, the tilt & swing movements are identical
- the gears as well as other mechanical elements are the same
I hope this answers your question.
Best regards,
Thierry
Welcome Tom!
I shall provide you the informaton about the differences p2/p3: let me some time to get it from our product manager.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105373\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
Does the sliding adapter you described below fit on a p2? If yes, is the revolving adapter you described on page 1 compatible. Lastly, will an Hasselblad H-mount digital back fit on it. I may need the codes for these products if your answers fit.
.... and just a precision about the sliding adapter: this sliding adapter is built in a way that the back itself is excatly in the same plane where used to be the 4x5" groundglass (and of course in the "Tilt & Swings" assymetrical axes of the p2). therefore there are no 15mm or so lost for this sliding adapter.
I hope I express myself clearly enough.
Thierry
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hi Billy,
Yes, this sliding adapter fits on the p2: it is actually designed for the p3 (100mm sized) and thus it needs the use of a tapered bellow 4x5"/100.
The sliding adapter is fixed the same way as when changing the format frame: unscrew the 4x5" frame on the rear standard and screw the sliding adapter on it. It takes 15".
Of course, this sliding adapter (with its groundglass and sensor) is then located excatly in the same image plane as the 4x5" groundglass, with the axes in this plane, making it possible to tilt, swing and focus as with 4x5" (although I personnally prefer the live video to do it).
And yes, this sliding adapter is with the Hasselblad V mount.
It is then not longer possible to mount the revolving adapter: this revolving adapter kit is (was = discontinued, but still some few in stock) on a 4x5" mount to be fit on the "Carrier Frame Wide" of the p2.
Code for the "Sliding Adapter 100 HB-V, basic" is 551.32.095
Code for the "Tapered Bellows 4x5/100" is 452.16.010
or then the Code for the "Wide Angle Bellows 4x5/100 EL" is 455.16.000, if using short focal length lenses. (EL stands for ELectronic ---> uses the contacts on the p3, but can be used without on a p2).
You might need also an Y-Sync cable (depending the bellow extension) if you are using Copal lenses (Code 521.51.010)
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
Does the sliding adapter you described below fit on a p2? If yes, is the revolving adapter you described on page 1 compatible. Lastly, will an Hasselblad H-mount digital back fit on it. I may need the codes for these products if your answers fit.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thank you as usual for your effort, Thierry. I appreciate that your answers are so Swiss-precise to my exact questions. It was my mistake for phrasing my question loosely.
In my search for a sliding back adapter to fit a Sinar 4x5 p2, I cannot rationalize $4K on the p2 to p3 upgrade, $4K on a sliding adapter, and $1K on a V-mount adapter plate (all prices are approximate). Instead, what was looking attractive to me was a used Phase One Flex Adapter at $2K, until a comrade pointed out other solutions from Cambo, Eco-Digital, Mergin-X, and Plaubel. Further comments from all are welcomed as I research further.
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Welcome!
I understand, your concerns about prices. However, you don't need an upgrade from p2 to p3 at $4k: the p2 lens standard remains the same. Just mount the sliding adapter with the tapered bellow.
The Flex adapter is cheaper, admitted, but am not sure if exactly in the tilt & swing axes, probably not (has to be confirmed), which would then make your p2 become a "normal" view camera..
Thierry
Thank you as usual for your effort, Thierry. I appreciate that your answers are so Swiss-precise to my exact questions. It was my mistake for phrasing my question loosely.
In my search for a sliding back adapter to fit a Sinar 4x5 p2, I cannot rationalize $4K on the p2 to p3 upgrade, $4K on a sliding adapter, and $1K on a V-mount adapter plate (all prices are approximate). Instead, what was looking attractive to me was a used Phase One Flex Adapter at $2K, until a comrade pointed out other solutions from Cambo, Eco-Digital, Mergin-X, and Plaubel. Further comments from all are welcomed as I research further.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105839\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Tom,
Here the information you wished to have and concerning the differences between the Sinar p2 and p3:
- the frames are different in size (100mm for the p3) and have built-in eletronical gold contacts
- the vertical shift possibility is about 2 cm less on the p3 (due to a shorther standard)
- the basic extension is a few millimeters shorter due to different "caps" used
- the horizontal shift, the tilt & swing movements are identical
- the gears as well as other mechanical elements are the same
I hope this answers your question.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105431\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly the information I was looking for, thanks a bunch for your effort !
Always good to get that sort of information from the horse's mouth, rather than some sales person .
Cheers,
Tom