Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: benedmonson on February 06, 2007, 06:16:12 pm
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Just an FYI for those considering a new MFDB. Have had my Phase One P30 back for about 10 days now and have had 6 editorial shoots with it tethered to my old Mac 15" 1.5 gig with 2 gigs of ram. All I can say it is close to flawless! When I looked for unretouched images from the P30 before I bought there were none to be found. I'm going to post some from recent shoots straight out of the camera, no levels set only down size from 182mb to 10mb for uploading. WB was set with color checker during shoot. The images out of the camera really don't need any post processing, but of course we all do it anyway!!!
Hope these help some of you out there.
P.S. We've all seen images from James Russell's P30, but to me those are not "Real World" images, because he isn't a "Real World" photographer! I only dream of shooting or even assisting on the stuff he does.
Cheers,
Ben Edmonson
www.benedmonson.com[attachment=1765:attachment][attachment=1766:attachment][atta
chment=1767:attachment][attachment=1768:attachment]
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Pity they are JPEGs. There are some bad artefacts.
Which camera/lenses did you use?
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Hi Ben,
:: Check your PM ::
REGARDS
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I shoot a Contax 645, the first three are the 140mm which I'm growing to love, and the third was the 80mm which I'm finding is a great all around lens. Never have really used a normal lens in the past, but the 80mm with the P30's crop factor is great for a lot of shots.
As for the artifacts, I know the jpeg compression for the web is bad, but they still look very good on my monitor. I'm not seeing the artifacts, am I not looking close enough??? You're monitor may be more detailed than my Apple LCD. I will admit that they don't look anything close as the TIFF's do at 16 bit 182 mb on my monitor, they are freaking mind blowing!!!
Cheers,
Ben
Pity they are JPEGs. There are some bad artefacts.
Which camera/lenses did you use?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99529\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Images look good. Don't get me wrong
Have a look at the black pants in the first shot. See the posterization?
I wish JPEG2000 would replace JPEG. It's a big improvement, it's available, but no-one uses it.
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The true test is in the images I'm processing right now from yesterdays photoshoot. Shot an entire collection of cashmere sweaters on a mannequin for the web. Have found no moire yet! Will post some when done.
Ben
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The P-30 is specially designed for fashion.
Moire is not there,because the sensor has micro-prisms.
Cheers,
Willem.
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I just didn't believe the no Moire thing until I saw it, it's great. I used to spend nights removing it from my 1Ds II images. Here is the sample of the cashmere I shot yesterday, no post at all, just a small bit of sharpening.
I'm off the drink my bourbon, it's starting to sweat as I type.
Later,
Ben Edmonson
www.benedmonson.com
The P-30 is specially designed for fashion.
Moire is not there,because the sensor has micro-prisms.
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99536\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I just didn't believe the no Moire thing until I saw it, it's great. I used to spend nights removing it from my 1Ds II images. Here is the sample of the cashmere I shot yesterday, no post at all, just a small bit of sharpening.
I'm off the drink my bourbon, it's starting to sweat as I type.
Later,
Ben Edmonson
www.benedmonson.com
The P-30 is specially designed for fashion.
Moire is not there,because the sensor has micro-prisms.
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99536\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Certainly great quality files!
Cheers,
Willem.
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Not to toot my own tooter, but additional real-world P30 shots are included in my P30 review for this site:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...%20review.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/P30%20review.shtml)
Certainly great quality files!
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99540\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Sorry William, but I thought they were most likely retouched and also very small. When I was thinking of purchasing the P30 I read your review several times, but not being able to enlarge the images was a problem. With the images I posted you can enlarge them the 30-40 inches at 72 dpi. Just wanting to help people make an educated buying decision by displaying real world large files.
Regards,
Ben Edmonson
www.benedmonson.com
Not to toot my own tooter, but additional real-world P30 shots are included in my P30 review for this site:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...%20review.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/P30%20review.shtml)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99541\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks for posting them Ben, looks like a good back..
How about wide shots, any problems getting a good DPS with the Contax and the crop factor ?
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Sorry William, but I thought they were most likely retouched and also very small. When I was thinking of purchasing the P30 I read your review several times, but not being able to enlarge the images was a problem. With the images I posted you can enlarge them the 30-40 inches at 72 dpi. Just wanting to help people make an educated buying decision by displaying real world large files.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99568\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Very true.
REGARDS
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Here is another unretouched P30 picture.
[attachment=1784:attachment]
It is no moire on this picture, but I have moire from time to time.
So P30 is not moire free!
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Oh, no offense taken! I just wanted more people to read my review. :-) And you're right, the JPEGs in the review are of necessity very small.
A large unretouched P30 shot is attached to this post.
Sorry William, but I thought they were most likely retouched and also very small. When I was thinking of purchasing the P30 I read your review several times, but not being able to enlarge the images was a problem. With the images I posted you can enlarge them the 30-40 inches at 72 dpi. Just wanting to help people make an educated buying decision by displaying real world large files.
Regards,
Ben Edmonson
www.benedmonson.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99568\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Here is another unretouched P30 picture.
[attachment=1784:attachment]
It is no moire on this picture, but I have moire from time to time.
So P30 is not moire free!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99621\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hmmm - knee surgery. Football injury?
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William, that's a terrific portrait. One thing I notice with these backs, though, is that the results can be made so large, with such fidelity, that it seems like you're standing two inches from the subject and staring at him/her. That's not always the most flattering distance: you start to notice little wrinkles and complexion flaws, not because they're especially bad, but because you usually can't or don't see them, either in real life or in other less-highly-resolved photos. In other words, these backs can show you more than you can normally see, and sometimes, more than you really want to see.
JC
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Images look good. Don't get me wrong
Have a look at the black pants in the first shot. See the posterization?
I wish JPEG2000 would replace JPEG. It's a big improvement, it's available, but no-one uses it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99533\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Graham
You surely have good eyes BUT it seem strange you notice artifacts / posterization in Bens P30 images and post images from your own Sinar e22 back with much much more artifacts in another thread ?
100% crop:
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Thanks, John! I am also beginning to notice that these medium format backs do really show every tiny flaw, especially with (1) good lenses and (2) any kind of side lighting. The woman in that portrait really appears, in person, to have flawless skin. In my normal retouching, I can smooth it out so that the minor defects revealed by the back's resolving power aren't obvious in the final image.
Relatedly, I just got the 120mm Makro for the Contax 645. I used to have one quite a while ago and remember how wicked sharp it was with film; I'm a little afraid as to how much detail it would resolve with the P30 in a tight headshot. So I'll likely not use it for tight headshots at all.
Oh, in case anyone's wondering, the color cast in that shot is intentional. It looks better on my Mac than the PC at work I'm looking at now, though.
William, that's a terrific portrait. One thing I notice with these backs, though, is that the results can be made so large, with such fidelity, that it seems like you're standing two inches from the subject and staring at him/her. That's not always the most flattering distance: you start to notice little wrinkles and complexion flaws, not because they're especially bad, but because you usually can't or don't see them, either in real life or in other less-highly-resolved photos. In other words, these backs can show you more than you can normally see, and sometimes, more than you really want to see.
JC
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99653\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Graham
You surely have good eyes BUT it seem strange you notice artifacts / posterization in Bens P30 images and post images from your own Sinar e22 back with much much more artifacts in another thread ?
Hi Toby, I prefaced that post with the following comment: "I am using a terrible RAW converter to see my pics quickly without a Mac, so don't judge noise and colour."
I don't know how to make it more clear. I am using a 'hack' to quickly process my files on my PC. It does a terrible job compared to Capture Shop on a Mac. For one thing it reduces the image to something like 6-bit from 16-bit! I just use it to preview files at full res, and then process them properly when I get access to a Mac. I am working on getting a Mac of my own.
Btw, those white spots are highlights on tiny drops of water.
These files are clearly no indication of the Sinarback quality. When I have time I will post the difference and you will sigh with relief
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Wow! We've got quite a thread going here. Maybe it will help new people to the market! All great shots from everybody. I'm noticing as I continue to edit today that the skin tones and colors are really dead on straight out of the camera, makes my job easier. Just delivered some magazine files and the client was amazed and called the images very 3D looking!!! That's what makes it all worth while.
Cheers,
Ben Edmonson
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All great shots from everybody.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99676\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No disrespect I think most of these shot are terrible overlit and stopped down - I understand some are tests
I wish there was a lighting /retouching forum of the quality of this forum .. any URLs ??
or Michael R do you want to expand the brief of this zone ??
"Medium Format Pre and Post production"
SMM
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Without knowing which images you're referring to, I'll just say that "overlit" is subjective and often depends on the photographer's intent. Moreover, I'm not sure what you mean by "stopped down" -- if you're saying that it would be "better" if the shots posted were only those taken at maximum aperture, I think that would reveal more about the lenses used, not the P30 as such.
Also, please keep in mind that people are *purposefully* posting unretouched shots so that potential P30 buyers can get as good an idea as possible as to how the back performs, not how good the photographer is at retouching (nor, for that matter, how good the photographer is as a photographer). So, I'd suggest that critiques of these shots as if they're the finished product is (1) unfair and (2) not the point of the images posted here.
No disrespect I think most of these shot are terrible overlit and stopped down - I understand some are tests
I wish there was a lighting /retouching forum of the quality of this forum .. any URLs ??
or Michael R do you want to expand the brief of this zone ??
"Medium Format Pre and Post production"
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99678\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Sam,
I love your honesty!!! I've got very broad shoulders and must adimit that I'm not as good a photographer as alot of folks on this board. That said all 4 images I posted are for a special education issue coming up. All three teachers or coaches only allowed me to shoot them during their free period at school. So all lighting setups were very crude and quick. Total shoot time for the lady teacher of the year was 20 minutes at which her students started pouring back into the class room. Also, I can't afford to hire an assistant at this time so I'm the photographer, digital tech and assistant all in one!!!
Anybody wanting to give me lighting tips in the future please feel to do so, I'm only trying to get better. That's why I hang out here....
Regards,
Ben Edmonson
www.benedmonson.com
No disrespect I think most of these shot are terrible overlit and stopped down - I understand some are tests
I wish there was a lighting /retouching forum of the quality of this forum .. any URLs ??
or Michael R do you want to expand the brief of this zone ??
"Medium Format Pre and Post production"
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99678\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I'm not as good a photographer as alot of folks on this board
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99686\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thats rubbish as my offline comments prove !
My back is optimal at 50 ISO
So as soon as I get inside I need my elinchroms - I put them on minimum and bosh Im stuck at f8 11 or 16 and the images are crisp and soulless
The same as most of these shots
Yes I do have Q flash but the light modification is very restricted -no grids ect
I cant afford digital ranger lights so I am working on ND ing my ellies
I am further interested on hot lights as I think a bit of camera shake might help
I think is is not down to lack of talent on any front it is handling the change of meduim
Anyway this is off topic if not 'off board' !
You cant afford an assistant - I cant afford better spec lights - A really honest question - would we be better of with canons and more peripherals ?
SMM
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just wanted to add here: there is moire with the P30....it is a lot better then canons or the P20, but it still sometimes shows up...C1 does a good job of getting rid of it, but the pattern sometimes remains....maybe C1 v4 will take care of that?
the detail on the P30 is fantastic, and no it is not too much...contrary, i though i would never say that but, all of a sudden i want more....
the P30 out of the box provides the best files i have ever seen...easy, clean, great color, great DR, no noise....
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No disrespect I think most of these shot are terrible overlit and stopped down - I understand some are tests
I wish there was a lighting /retouching forum of the quality of this forum .. any URLs ??
or Michael R do you want to expand the brief of this zone ??
"Medium Format Pre and Post production"
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99678\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I sort of understood what you ment by overlit. But I do not think you
understood what this thread is about.
When people are puting out unfinished work for everybody to see,
then critiq is out of place.
These pictures are just startingpoints.
I also took the liberty to take a look at some of your pictures on your website.
I found this among others.
A little flat and lifeless lightning, dont you think
What I do agree with you is a wish for retouching topics.
Willow
[attachment=1786:attachment]
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When people are puting out unfinished work for everybody to see,
then critiq is out of place.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well I wasnt the one who added a value judegement to the thread someone else said 'great shots everybody'
I just opposed that point of view
Maybe the poster meant 'great exmples of file' rather than 'great pictures'
My picture is indeed weak especially out of its context of being a series of local food producers - maybe it is just weak full stop
I have seen your site and would be most interested if you are starting with a file like yours and producing your excellent end product of tempting smooth beauty
How is it done??
I am interested to have opinions on my work and learn retouching and lighting from those kind enough to help
Probably no-one wants to wash thier laundy in public though or give thier secrets away - I recon this is a very hit bit of the net
No harm meant
SMM
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Morgan is right, I meant more on the lines of nice examples of P30 files and just didn't think about what I was saying. No harm no foul!
Ben
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Here is another unretouched P30 picture.
[attachment=1784:attachment]
It is no moire on this picture, but I have moire from time to time.
So P30 is not moire free!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99621\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have to say I am not so keen on the skin tone here and the moire is quite noticeable on the left her midrift.
Jo S.
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Also, please keep in mind that people are *purposefully* posting unretouched shots so that potential P30 buyers can get as good an idea as possible as to how the back performs, not how good the photographer is at retouching (nor, for that matter, how good the photographer is as a photographer). So, I'd suggest that critiques of these shots as if they're the finished product is (1) unfair and (2) not the point of the images posted here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99684\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
:: I totally agree with William ::
REGARDS
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Are the P30 (and soon to be P30+) strictly for fashion and portraits? Do the micro-lenses compromise the sharpness like an AA filter on a dSLR? Calumet had the P30 listed for the less than a P25... I'm not understanding why. I know the P30 has a high crop factor, so does it make the price that much cheaper?
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I know the P30 has a high crop factor, so does it make the price that much cheaper?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99971\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It seems that way!
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Hi Sam Morgan_Moore,
I also had a look at your website after your comments on the quality of others work on this thread and while I think some of the pictures are good I see others that could be improved with some simple lighting aids like a scrim or reflector.
I like the shot of the old guy on the beach, but IMO the shadows under his chin spoil it, if you scrim a shot like that and then add a flash a bit from the side you get better light..
Just trying to help..
David.
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if you scrim a shot like that and then add a flash a bit from the side you get better light..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99989\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
All the images in that 'book' on my are very 'brutalist' and if they are not they should be - this is a look that is considerered by some to be awful indeed
As I said I would love a place to criitque that is a little more private
The OP is not put out with my comments I believe further discussion of my work is off topic
My comments where more aimed at the different tequniques required when shooting this kit from DSLR - all the posters have quality websites with great images I understand that their images were not thier 'product'
Brutal images attached..
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I cant afford digital ranger lights so I am working on ND ing my ellies
SMM
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=99688\")
Hi Morgan,
That's exactly the route I went down a couple of years ago - you might want to contact a firm called Cotech in South Wales (+44 (0)1495 725276). They make lighting gels - you can buy a whole roll of ND for about £30 - I'm still using the same roll I bought 2 years ago!
Phil
[a href=\"http://www.philboorman.co.uk]Phil Boorman Photography[/url]
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Morgan I agree with you. Why don't we on this forum that are interested form a new group to discuss serious lighting scenarios. And also critique each others work in a more private manner. I've always thought the only way to become better is to be judged by your peers who have equal or greater abilities than your self. I'm really tired of discussing sensors and more resolution when it is the quality and placement of the light combined with the photographers creative eye that really makes a shot pop!!! I would be very interested in helping get this started.
Cheers,
Ben Edmonson
www.benedmonson.com
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Ditto on the lighting forum. would be good to see one here. i miss the one on the robgalbraith forum and i'm not paying so i can read it now that it's prophoto.
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I'm all for it too, I've already learned more about lighting from you Ben by asking directly.
-Nik
Morgan I agree with you. Why don't we on this forum that are interested form a new group to discuss serious lighting scenarios. And also critique each others work in a more private manner. I've always thought the only way to become better is to be judged by your peers who have equal or greater abilities than your self. I'm really tired of discussing sensors and more resolution when it is the quality and placement of the light combined with the photographers creative eye that really makes a shot pop!!! I would be very interested in helping get this started.
Cheers,
Ben Edmonson
www.benedmonson.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100032\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Ben, with the price of a P21+ back almost the same as the p30 back, how did you make you decision ?
and who was it again that fixed you up with the p30 back ?
cheers
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I really was torn between the P21 and the P30 for a while. The P21 really is enough resolution for most things I do, but the big thing for me was the smaller microns in the P30 that helps alot in the moire department. I was tired of staying up nights correcting moire from my Canon 1Ds after shooting tight nit clothing. The other thing that was a big factor was Jason Smith at Global Imaging Inc. out of Boulder CO 1.800.787.9807 ext. 139 hooking me up with the P30. I got a brand new P30 classic kit with 2 days of training at my studio plus C1 Pro for only about $4000.00 more than the P21. To me that was a deal I couldn't refuse.
Hope this helps,
Ben Edmonson
www.benedmonson.com
Ben, with the price of a P21+ back almost the same as the p30 back, how did you make you decision ?
and who was it again that fixed you up with the p30 back ?
cheers
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100126\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Are the P30 (and soon to be P30+) strictly for fashion and portraits? Do the micro-lenses compromise the sharpness like an AA filter on a dSLR? Calumet had the P30 listed for the less than a P25... I'm not understanding why. I know the P30 has a high crop factor, so does it make the price that much cheaper?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99971\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
John, the P30 back is cheaper because the P30 sensor chip is quite a bit smaller than the P25 chip (the smaller the chip, the more they get on a wafer, and the lower the cost of the chip). The cost of the sensor chip is a big part of the cost of the back. Obviously there are other factors that go into determining the cost of the back, but the size of the sensor chip is one of the biggest factors.
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John, the P30 back is cheaper because the P30 sensor chip is quite a bit smaller than the P25 chip (the smaller the chip, the more they get on a wafer, and the lower the cost of the chip). The cost of the sensor chip is a big part of the cost of the back. Obviously there are other factors that go into determining the cost of the back, but the size of the sensor chip is one of the biggest factors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100198\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have a 1Ds2 (and a 1Ds before) so Canon has already taken care of "sensor size : price 101" course I was just surprised in this case that a 22 MP P25 is around $20k vs a 31 MP P30 is $16k. The P25 comes with a very, very hefty premium... I believe the local rep here quoted:
P20: $ 7,990 - $1000 discount for a Mamiya
P21: $11,990 - $1000 ...
P25: $19,999 - $1000 ...
I need to double check the P25 price again because I had a mental shut-down as soon as he said the price...!... In contrast the P30 begins to look like a relative bargain. I don't need ultra wide, so the crop factor would be workable, though, a reduced viewfinder does spoil some of the fun.
Maybe PMA will bring some news about a Canon 1Ds3; having that information will help alot in my decision process. My choices are -
- Keep the 1Ds2 and buy the AFD II kit w/ a P20 for $8990
- Sell the 1Ds2 & lenses and go for a P25 or P30
- Upgrade to a 1Ds3 assuming the upgrade is substantial enough to justify the investment
The P25 or P30 back would be used, purchased from a local dealer. He doesn't what the price would be yet because the "+" models aren't shipping yet, thus they don't have any of the P25 or P30 exchanges yet. He also Phase One may take the exchanges back and update them. So all of that is a big unknown too.