Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: thsinar on January 30, 2007, 06:48:29 am
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Dear All,
It is my feeling that it has become necessary to give some information again about the whole situation: Sinar, Hy6, Jenoptik, Franke & Heidecke, who is the owner of the project, who has which rights, who owns who, etc ....
I will try to make it as clear as possible to everybody, since there seems to be much confusion and wrong information circulating around. What I will be writing are all known facts and not confidential at all. As such, you can take my information as an official one, since I am signing with "Sinar AG Switzerland", or then you can get this same information from Sinar AG directly in Switzerland.
All other information not included or mentioned below is either unknown from me, or then confidential, and will be communicated at the appropriate time, if necessary.
- Jenoptik AG Germany owes Sinar AG Switzerland ---> www.jenoptik.com
- Sinar is integrated in the "Laser - Optic and Sensors Systems" division of Jenoptik = Jenoptik-LOS GmbH
for more information go to following link:
http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?pageid=60?=1 (http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?pageid=60?=1)
- It has been announced and pupblished officially (Press Release dated December 13th 2006) that the Jenoptik AG - Leica AG sale/purchase agreement of Sinar AG had been canceled:
---> http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-2...l/3725_4723.htm (http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-2...l/3725_4723.htm)
- Jenoptik AG has developped (R&D), financed (paid for) the project of the new camera known under the names Sinar Hy6 and Leaf AFi and appointed Franke & Heidecke Germany to manufacture it.
- As such, Jenoptik HAS the exclusive sales rights for this particular camera and has given these sales rights to Sinar AG and Kodak- Leaf, whatever are the terms of these agreements.
- Franke & Heidecke has the rights to sell this camera in Japan, China and Russia ONLY, AND under the name "Rolleiflex" (and has not the rights to sell it to Phase One).
- Phase One is not part of this project, which means in clear that this camera will not be sold to Phase One.
- Sinar AG has no plans to provide adapter plates for either Phase One or Hasselblad digital backs.
- The Sinar Hy6 camera will be released by end of the second quarter of 2007: Production is started with the 0-series to be ready in a few weeks.
- Prices, Upgrades and possibe Kits available will be communicated through the official Sinar distributors worldwide and in due time, except for Japan, China and Russia.
Thanks to all,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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As this welcome statement is hard to read when it's long I've done some clipping.
It seems the schedule is slipping slightly.
Also, we would need to know whether Phase *can* supply backs for the Hy6 without infringing on any IP that belongs to Sinar. This is not clear yet.
In summary, at the moment, it looks like you can buy Hasselblad, Leaf/Sinar, Sinar/Sinar (rebadged Leaf/Sinar ?) or Mamiya/Phase if you want an MF camera that is in production. The days of match and mix are fading.
In this context the Hy6 had better be appealing, because they are starting from a zero-customer base for the camera system itself ! If I may be allowed to speculate, I think we can expect a cheap bundle with an existing chip (65 ?) and a killer announcement of the next chip generation at the time the Hy6 is really launched ...
Edmund
Dear All,
- Phase One is not part of this project, which means in clear that this camera will not be sold to Phase One.
- Sinar AG has no plans to provide adapter plates for either Phase One or Hasselblad digital backs.
- The Sinar Hy6 camera will be released by end of the second quarter of 2007: Production is started with the 0-series to be ready in a few weeks.
Sinar AG Switzerland
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98274\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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As this welcome statement is hard to read when it's long I've done some clipping.
It seems the schedule is slipping slightly.
Also, we would need to know whether Phase *can* supply backs for the Hy6 without infringing on any IP that belongs to Sinar. This is not clear yet.
In summary, at the moment, it looks like you can buy Hasselblad, Leaf/Sinar, Sinar/Sinar (rebadged Leaf/Sinar ?) or Mamiya/Phase if you want an MF camera that is in production. The days of match and mix are fading.
In this context the Hy6 had better be appealing, because they are starting from a zero-customer base for the camera system itself ! If I may be allowed to speculate, I think we can expect a cheap bundle with an existing chip (65 ?) and a killer announcement of the next chip generation at the time the Hy6 is really launched ...
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98277\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Edmund,
- "schedule slipping": we (Sinar) have always given the release date between April and June 2007: so we are still within.
- nobody can stop somebody to crack the communication interface and manufacre its own adapter system. It is therefore Phase One's own and sole decision to do this, if they find any interest in it.
- why do you want to re-badge "Sinar/Sinar" into "Leaf/Sinar"? In this case one could also re-badge Leaf/Leaf.
- speculations: as said, all information not included in my statement are still either unknown or confidential. I will therefore let you speculate.
All the best,
Thierry
Sinar AG
Switzerland
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Thierry,
Thank you for thorough & precise explanation. I don't think it was long. I will be looking forward to the product, when it is released in 07. Frankly I really don't care, what the name is.... as they say Rose is a rose. I am really glad that there will a new player in the maarket, competition is always good.
Congratulations & wish you the best as I am sure lotsa people worked very hard & did their best to make a good product.
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Thierry,
Thank you for thorough & precise explanation. I don't think it was long. I will be looking forward to the product, when it is released in 07. Frankly I really don't care, what the name is.... as they say Rose is a rose. I am really glad that there will a new player in the maarket, competition is always good.
Congratulations & wish you the best as I am sure lotsa people worked very hard & did their best to make a good product.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98291\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you Sean, for the compliments: it is nice and good to hear!
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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Thierry,
Thank you for your explanation. It is interesting that Sinar is taking the approach of NOT using encryption etc to lock out any add-ons to their system like the inkjet guys do. This is refreshing.
I believe all of us look forward to the release of the Hy6 with eager anticipation
Edmund
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Thierry,
Thank you for your explanation. It is interesting that Sinar is taking the approach of NOT using encryption etc to lock out any add-ons to their system like the inkjet guys do. This is refreshing.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98296\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Who knows if the Hy6 cameras will ship so that they can only operate with a Sinar or Leaf back so that in theory you will be able to mount a Phase back on it. However, if you have to buy a Leaf or Sinar back to get the camera(i.e., it will only be available bundled), which I believe will be the case, I don't think many photographers will be following that path. As you will see, there is more than one way to "lock out" Phase. So, please don't feel refreshed just yet. [G]
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- Franke & Heidecke has the rights to sell this camera in Japan, China and Russia ONLY, AND under the name "Rolleiflex" (and has not the rights to sell it to Phase One).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98274\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So the hy6 Rolleiflex wont't be avaible in europe or USA?
To me all this sounds like Hasselblad is going to win this battle, easier than I thought.....
BR
Samuel
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However, if you have to buy a Leaf or Sinar back to get the camera(i.e., it will only be available bundled), which I believe will be the case, I don't think many photographers will be following that path.
I'm almost certain this won't be the case. For one thing, this is a film camera as well as a digital body. Afaik, it will be available to film users.
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I'm almost certain this won't be the case. For one thing, this is a film camera as well as a digital body. Afaik, it will be available to film users.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98371\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You do know that the H3D is also a "film camera".
As for whether Sinar/Leaf intend to "lock out" Phase backs, it seems clear to me from everything that Sinar/Leaf have said that that is their intent. Of course, there are unfair competition laws in the US and Europe that may prevent them from coming out and saying that they are trying to take sales away from Phase by forcing you to buy a Sinar or Leaf back if you want a Hy6. They have to be careful about how they describe their motivation. Phase would have done the exact same thing if it had the financial resources and was not arrogant about its market position.
Will this move by Sinar/Leaf pay off? Who knows, but I will bet that a lot of people that would not have given one second of attention to a Sinar back will take a real close look once the Hy6 comes out because if you want a Hy6, you will have to get the back(or a Leaf). It's the exact same thing Hasselblad did with the H3D except Hasselblad already had the camera, and I do believe that people who would not looked for a second at a Hasselblad back have been doing so. (Actually, Hasselblad is not quite so aggressive in pursuing a "closed" system approach, as you can still buy an H2 and put anybody's back on it.)
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why everybody is so stressed about that the companies try to force their customers to stay with them longer than 1 generation of backs?
everybody did so before the closed camera systems also, the upgrade politics of the past is nothing other- it makes it very expansive to change the system and so very few people changed after once they have had a phase back. phase acted here very aggressive, with the result that they made red numbers although selling the most backs.
no wonder that sinar / leaf try to keep them out if they can .....
if you want a open system i think its still not a great problem, cause there are several "open" systems in the market, as contax, mamiya, hassy 1+2d. the HY6 will not be the "onliest" solution you have to go if you dont want to do that, simply dont buy it and buy one of the other camera brands.
in general i dont see why its so dramatic that a more or less perfect developed system will not have much future, as the contax. worther it would be if the back manufactors would decide not to make their new backs in the future compatible with this open camera systems, but why should they do that...... ( and if you would go with the mamiya you will save so much money that you can upgrade your back one time without any costs ).
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So the hy6 Rolleiflex wont't be avaible in europe or USA?
To me all this sounds like Hasselblad is going to win this battle, easier than I thought.....
BR
Samuel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98369\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Samuel,
nobody said that the Hy6 is not available in Europe or in the USA. I said: F&H has the sales right for this camera (branded Rolleiflex) in the japanese, chinese and russian markets, only.
Best regards,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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I'm almost certain this won't be the case. For one thing, this is a film camera as well as a digital body. Afaik, it will be available to film users.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98371\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
To make it clear to all: NO, nobody at Sinar will force you to buy a Sinarback if you wish to get the Sinar Hy6. In the same way: Sinar has never forced a customer to buy a Sinarback when purchasing a Sinar p2, a "x", a f2 or a f3, etc ...
I hope this puts a final point to the discussion.
Best regards,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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hi thierry,
good afternoon.
one (last?) question..:
will the Leaf back- plate be the same than the SINAR, or will they be different?
Will it be possible to use a SINAr back on a Afi camera or a Leaf back on a HY6?
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Dear Samuel,
nobody said that the Hy6 is not available in Europe or in the USA. I said: F&H has the sales right for this camera (branded Rolleiflex) in the japanese, chinese and russian markets, only.
Best regards,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98460\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I mean, the camera will be sold branded as Rolleiflex in Europe too?
Thanks
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I mean, the camera will be sold branded as Rolleiflex in Europe too?
Thanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Samuel,
I said: F&H has the sales rights for Japan, China and Russia, branded as Rolleiflex, ONLY.
So obviously the naswer to your question is NO, if one consider that Russia is out of Europe (which s actually the case).
Best regards,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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hi thierry,
good afternoon.
one (last?) question..:
will the Leaf back- plate be the same than the SINAR, or will they be different?
Will it be possible to use a SINAr back on a Afi camera or a Leaf back on a HY6?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98464\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi Rainer,
Fine, and yourself?
As for your question: the today's stand of the things makes it possible to mount and use and Sinarback on an AFi, and a Leaf back on a Hy6.
Have a nice day,
Thierry
Sinar Ag Switzerland
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This is all so confusing, or am I being thick ? So the Rollei is not available in the USA and Europe. Unless of course I travel abroad to get one, and then what about the service if it goes wrong.
I bet Hasselblad are laughing themselves silly. They're going to be selling truckloads more of their cameras as a result. Trouble is I hate their H cameras. All it needs now is for Phase to resurrect the Contax brand and sell it in every country around the world, at the same time supplying good back up. They'll sell truckloads too.
My 2 cents.
Pete
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This is all so confusing, or am I being thick ? So the Rollei is not available in the USA and Europe. Unless of course I travel abroad to get one, and then what about the service if it goes wrong.
I bet Hasselblad are laughing themselves silly. They're going to be selling truckloads more of their cameras as a result. Trouble is I hate their H cameras. All it needs now is for Phase to resurrect the Contax brand and sell it in every country around the world, at the same time supplying good back up. They'll sell truckloads too.
My 2 cents.
Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98472\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Pete,
Once again: There is no Rollei! There will be a Rolleiflex branded camera in Japan , China and Russia, sold by F&H. In ALL other countries it will be sold by Sinar with the name Sinar Hy6.
Best regards,
thierry
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Pete,
Once again: There is no Rollei! There will be a Rolleiflex branded camera in Japan , China and Russia, sold by F&H. In ALL other countries it will be sold by Sinar with the name Sinar Hy6.
Best regards,
thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98473\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Thierry,
I was being thick ! Hopefully then, the Sinar back up and Marketing will be better than Rollei's have been these last few years.
Many thanks
Pete
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Thanks Thierry,
I was being thick !
Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98476\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You are welcome and I wouldn't dare to say that you've been thick!
Far from me this idea
Thierry,
Sinar AG Switzerland
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In summary, at the moment, it looks like you can buy(..) Mamiya/Phase if you want an MF camera that is in production. The days of match and mix are fading.
Where has Leaf said that they will not support Mamiya once the AFi goes into production? I doubt that Leaf are about to drop a large installed base of Mamiya users. I suspect that the same would go for the eMotion backs as well.
No doubt dropping the Mamiya platform might increase sales of AFi's, but it might knock other sales. I guess that could change over time if the AFi really delivers on its potential.
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Pete,
There will be a Rolleiflex branded camera in Japan , China and Russia, sold by F&H. In ALL other countries it will be sold by Sinar with the name Sinar Hy6.
Best regards,
thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98473\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's the answer to my question. Thank's.
Can you explain why this decision? I hope it's not asking too much...
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Thierry- thanks for your help on this forum. I will be purchasing either the H3 or the Hy6 (after a series of bad pre-sales experiences with Phase One in Antarctica).
Just a heads up that both the links you posted are broken (one a 404 error, the other a database error).
for more information go to following link:
http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?pageid=60?=1 (http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?pageid=60?=1)
- It has been announced and pupblished officially (Press Release dated December 13th 2006) that the Jenoptik AG - Leica AG sale/purchase agreement of Sinar AG had been canceled:
---> http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-2...l/3725_4723.htm (http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-2...l/3725_4723.htm)
Also, searching for "Hy6" on the jenoptik site returns no hits...
Unfortunately, our search machine has failed to come up with any matching results. Please type in a similar or new keyword and try again. Thank you.
As well, trying to explore CaptureShop throws an error: http://www.sinarbron.com/sinar/digital/software.php (http://www.sinarbron.com/sinar/digital/software.php) click on "here" to go to http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/owners/e_owners/e_login.owners.asp (http://www.sinar.ch/sinar/owners/e_owners/e_login.owners.asp)
Unfortunately, to echo some of the other sentiments on this board, such difficulties with getting clear product information present a hurdle to buyers (even motivated buyers such as myself).
Also, trying to find pricing on an Hy6 kit, has been even more challenging, even after following the links from sinarbron dealers (eg, http://www.fotocare.com/html/SearchResult....uct=&submit=Go) (http://www.fotocare.com/html/SearchResult.asp?keyword=hy6&manufacturer=&product=&submit=Go))
"Your query is empty, please try again."
Perhaps worst of all, after filling out the detailed contact form to request info on the Hy6, it generates an error An error occurred while sending mail.
(http://www.sinarbron.com/literature-ty.php). Sinare is making it pretty hard to have faith in after sales support when presales is so difficult.
We are lucky to have you to keep the information coming...
-c
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I will be purchasing either the H3 or the Hy6 (after a series of bad pre-sales experiences with Phase One in Antarctica).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105299\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not many people can say that for sure, do you care to share some more details what happened?
What makes you believe Hy6 will satisfy you pre-sales experiences, sugar coated words? because anything else apart from that is not available anywhere in the world.
But if you don't like it then you don't like it, but it's OK to know a little more about your
bad pre-sales experiences no?
Regards
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Thierry- thanks for your help on this forum. I will be purchasing either the H3 or the Hy6 (after a series of bad pre-sales experiences with Phase One in Antarctica).
Just a heads up that both the links you posted are broken (one a 404 error, the other a database error).
Also, searching for "Hy6" on the jenoptik site returns no hits...
As well, trying to explore CaptureShop throws an error:
Unfortunately, to echo some of the other sentiments on this board, such difficulties with getting clear product information present a hurdle to buyers (even motivated buyers such as myself).
Also, trying to find pricing on an Hy6 kit, has been even more challenging, even after following the links from sinarbron dealers (eg, http://www.fotocare.com/html/SearchResult....uct=&submit=Go) (http://www.fotocare.com/html/SearchResult.asp?keyword=hy6&manufacturer=&product=&submit=Go))
"Your query is empty, please try again."
Perhaps worst of all, after filling out the detailed contact form to request info on the Hy6, it generates an error (http://www.sinarbron.com/literature-ty.php). Sinare is making it pretty hard to have faith in after sales support when presales is so difficult.
We are lucky to have you to keep the information coming...
-c
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105299\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you can email me your contact info either myself or the local rep will get in touch with you. I will let the powers that be at the office know about the link for Hy6 Information. The truth is pricing has not been established yet for the Hy6 so there is no pricing to give yet. That will be more forthcoming when we get an exact date of delivery.
But again please contact me at mlapointe@sinarbron.com with your name, address and phone number and I will be in touch with you for any questions you may have.
Sincerely,
Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Manager
(219) 670-9905
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Not many people can say that for sure, do you care to share some more details what happened?
What makes you believe Hy6 will satisfy you pre-sales experiences, sugar coated words? because anything else apart from that is not available anywhere in the world.
But if you don't like it then you don't like it, but it's OK to know a little more about your
bad pre-sales experiences no?
As with most evaluations of electronic technology, especially of those at the "top" and/or cutting edge, there are seldom 100% clear cut choices.
Unfortunately, I'm in the midst of two such "grey" (ie, not B&W/clearcut) techno-eval struggles.
One is around choosing the best large format printer for our "traditional" color landscape photos which are displayed framed, under non-glare glaze (ie, not doing fine art reproduction in open frames). No one will be touching the paper, so the "feel" of art papers becomes less important. Also, to date we print almost exclusively on glossy photo papers which we find nicely offsets the snap/sharpness/detail lost by the nonglare glass/acrylic. Excellent prices, color management, gamut (esp. lower L and blacks), and turn-around time from competitors in the "traditional" lightjet/chromira space reduce (perhaps nullify) the advantages of inkjet as we understand them. But I'm exploring the inkjet options to be "sure"(if one can be). That exploration has certainly shown some real drama (ie, just read the threads on the pros/cons/woes/confusion surrounding capabilities of HP Z3100 vs. Canon IPF6000 vs. Epson 7800). While it looked like the Z3100 would be the clear choice, now, not so much.
The other evaluation involves the subject of this forum topic: investing in my new, primary shooting camera. Frankly, it's unfortunate for me that it does not appear that Canon will be releasing an upgrade for the 1DS II anytime soon (ie, min. 9 months plus), which depending upon the actual advances they achieve could allow me to avoid the expense and challenges of digital MF all together. It could make my choice relatively easy (in the context of what/how I shoot). However, given Canon's delays, it appears that I'll "have to" invest in a new digital medium format kit. Of the mainstream MF options (again for what I need), I was able to pretty quickly narrow my list down to P45, H3, and Hy6.
While I don't want to stir up unnecessary drama on this issue, to answer your direct question about why I eliminated PhaseOne, I was with a prominent PhaseOne rep for over three weeks last month which I had hoped would be a perfect opportunity to be sold on the past/present/future of their backs. Frustratingly, despite my numerous efforts/requests to be educated on PhaseOne by him both proactively before and during the trip (whether via extemporaneous discussions, marketing materials/powerpoint decks, trying out a demo model, etc.,), he but ignored me on the trip. Even after I announced in front of him that "I guess I'm going to have to buy the H3 then", amazingly he said/did nothing. As a result, I lost confidence in PhaseOne's customer service and crossed them off my list.
In terms of H3 vs. Hy6, I know several people with H2's who are happy with the company and products and who are lusting after the 28mm. As such, it makes the proven, third generation H3 a compelling front runner (and I can get it for an excellent price from B&H). As well, the "chatter" about the Hy6 consortium-built camera and unclear branding/config/pricing/support makes it feel uneasily like the way the Mamiya ZD evolved (or not - it's still not avail in the US). However, there has been enough background noise against the H3 and in praise of the Hy6, that I'm going to invest the effort to seriously evaluate it (with the help of the great people on these and other forums).
All in all, even if relative prices are not considered, such complex purchases involve trade-offs which make any decision a "best-fit" rather than an "ideal." One of the key questions to me, even before whether the features/functions meet my needs best, is whether there is support and continuing development to make my investment of time/mindshare/maintenance (which over the long run eclipses the initial capital cost) viable.
I don't know if I've added much with my comments, but I hope I at least answered some of your questions.
Thanks to all in these forums who form a community that materially helps us all!
-c
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If you can email me your contact info either myself or the local rep will get in touch with you.
That would be great! I've sent the info to you as requested.
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Sorry for your experience with the Phase rep. In most recent years I have found thier staff to be more than helpful. The phase is a great system. I would suggest that you contact your local rep (found on thier website) and i am sure they will be more than happy to assist you.
Sometimes people's personalities do not mesh, but that is why there are a number of indviduals that make up the whole team. It may be short sighted to take them off your list. If I stopped using products or services where I may not have liked where I was treated, well then I would never buy an Apple,Cannon or Hasselbald.
What I am trying to say is do not cut off your nose to spite your face and put all the equipment through a proper evaluaiton now that you are back here in the states.
dg
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Dear cogden,
sorry about the links. I have found the current right place.
And sorry for the "error" messages you've got for each of your trials: be sure that this is not intentional. We shall try to sort this out. Be sure that I shall be here to inform about whatever information is available and answer questions
1. Try following for News about Jenoptik/Sinar:
http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?NEWSID...pageid=67&lang1 (http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?NEWSID=342&pageid=67&lang1)
Addendum: somehow this link does also not lead to the right place, and you need to go through the press releases.
However, and for more convenience I have copied and added the text of Jenoptik's take-over of Sinar at the end of this post
2. Hy6
The Hy6 is not yet advertised as an available product and you won't find it at Jenoptik's page.
Also, definitive prices are not yet out: this shall be the case shortly before the official release
Go to Sinar's homepage ----> "Downloads" ---> "Brochures" ---> "200 - Sinar Hy6 - Brochure (pdf/808.40KB)"
3. Captureshop
if you wish to have an Installer of the latest CS version please let me know (PM) and I shall send you the installer via my FTP.
Or I guess Matt from SBI will be willing to help you here as well.
Let me know if I can be of further help.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Press Release Jenoptik AG - 29.09.2005
09/29/05 - Sinar has a new majority shareholder in Jenoptik
The Jenoptik subsidiary JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme GmbH has acquired a 51 percent stake in Sinar AG (Switzerland). The remaining 49 percent of the shares remain with Sinar Holding. The parties agreed not to disclose the purchase price. The share acquisition still requires the consent of the German Monopolies and Mergers Commission.
By taking this step JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme GmbH, Sinar’s most important partner, is making a direct investment in the medium-sized, family-owned company. In Jenoptik as the majority shareholder, Sinar is gaining a partner engaged in the field of digital imaging, with strong technological expertise and finances who will ensure that in the future it can continue to develop leading technology products for professional digital photography. In Autumn last year Jenoptik and Sinar combined their areas of expertise in the field of professional digital photography within a partnership agreement.
“The heart of today’s professional Sinar cameras are digital camera backs which have been developed over recent years together with JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme. The integration of sophisticated high-tech components increasingly requires partners with expertise to join forces. With Jenoptik, the technology group, Sinar will be able to continue to expand its leading position in the field of professional digital photography in the global market” said Hans-Carl Koch, Chairman of the Board of Sinar Holding.
The acquisition of a majority holding in the Sinar global brand will enable JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme GmbH to strengthen its existing successful cooperation with the Swiss camera systems manufacturer.
“In Sinar cameras we have the optimum platform for our digital camera backs” says Hans Szymanski, Managing Director of the Jenoptik subsidiary. Jenoptik will become the preferred partner for the professional user in digital professional photography.
The company offers complete solutions comprising a full line of products – from the lens to the capturing software and a unique digital know-how.
Feuerthalen/Jena, September 29, 2005
Company portrait of Sinar AG (www.sinarcameras.com)
The firm of Sinar was founded in 1948 by Carl Koch. The family-owned company develops, manufactures and distributes camera systems for the professional photography market. Since 1992 Sinar has been offering digital photography systems in the high-end range. The logical modular system comprises digital backs, digital lenses, capturing software and camera components. These enable the user to put together an ideally coordinated camera system in order to efficiently produce sophisticated photographs of the highest quality.
Company portrait of
JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme GmbH
JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme GmbH was founded in 1995 and is a 100-percent owned subsidiary of the technology group JENOPTIK AG, Jena (ISIN DE 0006229107). In the fields of laser technology, optics and sensor systems the company develops, manufactures and distributes laser beam sources, optical components, modules and system solutions as well as technologies for the precision measurement, reproduction, structuring and analysis of various materials. The company’s success is founded on state-of-the-art technologies and client-specific applications.
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Thierry- thanks for your help on this forum. I will be purchasing either the H3 or the Hy6 (after a series of bad pre-sales experiences with Phase One in Antarctica).
Just a heads up that both the links you posted are broken (one a 404 error, the other a database error).
Also, searching for "Hy6" on the jenoptik site returns no hits...
As well, trying to explore CaptureShop throws an error:
Unfortunately, to echo some of the other sentiments on this board, such difficulties with getting clear product information present a hurdle to buyers (even motivated buyers such as myself).
Also, trying to find pricing on an Hy6 kit, has been even more challenging, even after following the links from sinarbron dealers (eg, http://www.fotocare.com/html/SearchResult....uct=&submit=Go) (http://www.fotocare.com/html/SearchResult.asp?keyword=hy6&manufacturer=&product=&submit=Go))
"Your query is empty, please try again."
Perhaps worst of all, after filling out the detailed contact form to request info on the Hy6, it generates an error (http://www.sinarbron.com/literature-ty.php). Sinare is making it pretty hard to have faith in after sales support when presales is so difficult.
We are lucky to have you to keep the information coming...
-c
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As with most evaluations of electronic technology, especially of those at the "top" and/or cutting edge, there are seldom 100% clear cut choices.
Unfortunately, I'm in the midst of two such "grey" (ie, not B&W/clearcut) techno-eval struggles.
One is around choosing the best large format printer for our "traditional" color landscape photos which are displayed framed, under non-glare glaze (ie, not doing fine art reproduction in open frames). No one will be touching the paper, so the "feel" of art papers becomes less important. Also, to date we print almost exclusively on glossy photo papers which we find nicely offsets the snap/sharpness/detail lost by the nonglare glass/acrylic. Excellent prices, color management, gamut (esp. lower L and blacks), and turn-around time from competitors in the "traditional" lightjet/chromira space reduce (perhaps nullify) the advantages of inkjet as we understand them. But I'm exploring the inkjet options to be "sure"(if one can be). That exploration has certainly shown some real drama (ie, just read the threads on the pros/cons/woes/confusion surrounding capabilities of HP Z3100 vs. Canon IPF6000 vs. Epson 7800). While it looked like the Z3100 would be the clear choice, now, not so much.
The other evaluation involves the subject of this forum topic: investing in my new, primary shooting camera. Frankly, it's unfortunate for me that it does not appear that Canon will be releasing an upgrade for the 1DS II anytime soon (ie, min. 9 months plus), which depending upon the actual advances they achieve could allow me to avoid the expense and challenges of digital MF all together. It could make my choice relatively easy (in the context of what/how I shoot). However, given Canon's delays, it appears that I'll "have to" invest in a new digital medium format kit. Of the mainstream MF options (again for what I need), I was able to pretty quickly narrow my list down to P45, H3, and Hy6.
While I don't want to stir up unnecessary drama on this issue, to answer your direct question about why I eliminated PhaseOne, I was with a prominent PhaseOne rep for over three weeks last month which I had hoped would be a perfect opportunity to be sold on the past/present/future of their backs. Frustratingly, despite my numerous efforts/requests to be educated on PhaseOne by him both proactively before and during the trip (whether via extemporaneous discussions, marketing materials/powerpoint decks, trying out a demo model, etc.,), he but ignored me on the trip. Even after I announced in front of him that "I guess I'm going to have to buy the H3 then", amazingly he said/did nothing. As a result, I lost confidence in PhaseOne's customer service and crossed them off my list.
In terms of H3 vs. Hy6, I know several people with H2's who are happy with the company and products and who are lusting after the 28mm. As such, it makes the proven, third generation H3 a compelling front runner (and I can get it for an excellent price from B&H). As well, the "chatter" about the Hy6 consortium-built camera and unclear branding/config/pricing/support makes it feel uneasily like the way the Mamiya ZD evolved (or not - it's still not avail in the US). However, there has been enough background noise against the H3 and in praise of the Hy6, that I'm going to invest the effort to seriously evaluate it (with the help of the great people on these and other forums).
All in all, even if relative prices are not considered, such complex purchases involve trade-offs which make any decision a "best-fit" rather than an "ideal." One of the key questions to me, even before whether the features/functions meet my needs best, is whether there is support and continuing development to make my investment of time/mindshare/maintenance (which over the long run eclipses the initial capital cost) viable.
I don't know if I've added much with my comments, but I hope I at least answered some of your questions.
Thanks to all in these forums who form a community that materially helps us all!
-c
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It sounds like you having problems with Phase one guy and his personality/ego issues not the Digital Back. I wouldn't expect full attention in Antartica from any representative anyway but that is not good excuse also.
BTW was he hospitable with everybody else?
I understand your first impression is very important like with everything else in life.
Good Luck with your favorite system
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Well as far as pricing goes the following info from the Oz importer of Rollei/Leaf/Sinar arrived in a brochure this week. All in AUD$. This may or may not be a guide to other parts of the world. Our GST is 10%.
1. Rolleiflex 6008AF/WL Finder with 80mm Schneider f2.8 and FREE upgrade to a Hy6: $10,750 (inc GST).
2. Sinar eMotion 75 and Rollei 6008 AF Kit (inc. Sinar digital back Rollei camera body, WL Finder and eMotion 75 adapter): $43,000 (inc GST)
Upgade Paths:
upgrade to a Sinar Hy6: $5,500.00 (inc GST)
or
Buy the new Hy6 and keep the 6008AF as well: $3,500.00 (inc GST)
3. Sinar eMotion 75 plus adapter: $36,500.00 (inc GST)
The Leaf AFi got a page but no prices mentioned.
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Well as far as pricing goes the following info from the Oz importer of Rollei/Leaf/Sinar arrived in a brochure this week. All in AUD$. This may or may not be a guide to other parts of the world. Our GST is 10%.
1. Rolleiflex 6008AF/WL Finder with 80mm Schneider f2.8 and FREE upgrade to a Hy6: $10,750 (inc GST).
2. Sinar eMotion 75 and Rollei 6008 AF Kit (inc. Sinar digital back Rollei camera body, WL Finder and eMotion 75 adapter): $43,000 (inc GST)
Upgade Paths:
upgrade to a Sinar Hy6: $5,500.00 (inc GST)
or
Buy the new Hy6 and keep the 6008AF as well: $3,500.00 (inc GST)
3. Sinar eMotion 75 plus adapter: $36,500.00 (inc GST)
The Leaf AFi got a page but no prices mentioned.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
in € convertet this is quite cheap
didn't thought that a swiss brand is cheaper than hassy
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Upgade Paths:
upgrade to a Sinar Hy6: $5,500.00 (inc GST)
or
Buy the new Hy6 and keep the 6008AF as well: $3,500.00 (inc GST)
Are you sure you didn't get these the wrong way around?
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Precisions:
- Those prices are valid in Australia: don't take them as valid for everywhere.
- the upgrade price to Hy6 indicated is valid for those having purchased and eMotion 75 Kit with 6008 A, as a very special price.
- those who want to keep the 6008 AF have to pay an additional price as indicated.
Best regards,
Thierry
Are you sure you didn't get these the wrong way around?
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Upgade Paths:
upgrade to a Sinar Hy6: $5,500.00 (inc GST)
or
Buy the new Hy6 and keep the 6008AF as well: $3,500.00 (inc GST)
3. Sinar eMotion 75 plus adapter: $36,500.00 (inc GST)
The Leaf AFi got a page but no prices mentioned.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not bad for a good start I think later lenses are going to blow the roof not camera, but the quality will be there for sure.
Good Luck