Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: kevs on July 18, 2022, 07:28:01 pm
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Looking for recommendations in the 13 x19 in that zone. Is there a Canon or Epson that stands out? I used to be fully Epson, but I hear that Canon have matched them now... Thanks.
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Based on my extremely rewarding five year relationship with an Epson L-805 (an 8.5" six-ink dye ink printer) and several decades of not-so-good experiences with many other Epson pigment printers, my next printer will be an Epson ET-8550. Borderless 13X19 prints, no carts, and, if it's like my L-805, zero clogs, ever.
Dye inks have come a long way. Fading is no longer an issue and the on-print colour saturation is excellent. The only difficulties are minor bronzing with some glossy media and colour tint issues with monochrome prints under varying (colour temperature) lighting situations. I solve this by tinting BW prints with slight warm toning.
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Peter thanks, and what is the Epson printer, the next size up? Have you owned Canon too? Think as good as Canons?
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13 and 17 inch printers are the mainstay of both Epson and Canon's "serious amateur" lines of pigment and dye printers.
I have no knowledge or experience with dye printers, since my long gone Epson 1270, so cannot comment on Peter's thoughts.
The Epson P700 appears to be an excellent 13 inch printer with many desirable features as is the Canon Pro 300. I am still running my 13 year old Epson 3880 (17 inch pigment printer) and hope it keeps running for a long while.
There are many excellent reviews of these newer machines, look at Marc Segal and Keith Cooper's reviews online.
Have you considered a 17 inch printer? It is larger and costs more upfront but will pay for itself over time with the significantly larger ink cartridges.
Good luck in your quest.
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Eric thanks, yeah heard Canon 1000 in different league and go larger. What is the Epson equivilant of that one?
Also, Roll printing that you do on the larger printers that cost 4, 5k and do 30 x 40 or whatever want, do they exist in the size of... 17 to 20 " on long side or that only a feature of the really big printers? (no now, these ones only take fixed sheet sizes?)
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Also, Roll printing that you do on the larger printers that cost 4, 5k and do 30 x 40 or whatever want, do they exist in the size of... 17 to 20 " on long side or that only a feature of the really big printers? (no now, these ones only take fixed sheet sizes?)
The ET8550 will print 13” wide by several feet long. There’s no roll holder but it feeds long custom sheets easily.
I second Eric’s recommendation to watch Keith Cooper on YT for good reviews, including the ET 8550
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I bought a Canon Pro-300 printer earlier this year to replace a Canon 9500 Mk2 that I had for a long time. I am not a heavy user and never had a clog with the 9500 Mk2. I am very pleased with the 300. I print on both Canon paper and on profiled fine art paper. It will take 300gsm paper in the top feed so without manual feeding. The free Canon Print and Layout plug-in for LR and Photoshop works well. Keith Cooper has a video review of the 300.
Jonathan
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I am an Epson guy and can respond to the Epson line. Presently run 7 of them.
The 3880 andP800 were the best in class for a long time. I still have both at the small end. The roll fed 800 was replaced by the P900 but in my opinion they really cheaped out on the construction.
In addition to that they made the carts smaller and of course raised the ink price.
If I wanted a 17" printer I would go straight to the P5000 much cheaper ink and it is built like a tank. If you can go to 24" you have the P6000 and 7000.
Large ink carts up to 700ml and you can print 24" If you are really serious about printing the 24" (In my opinion) is the place to start after the P5000.
If you want 13" the 8550 is a pretty good choice if you do a lot of hi gloss. If you are printing on a hi gloss paper it gives you the old cibachrome look, best of class again in my opinion.
The older dye printer I have is great on glossy papers as well but nothing special on fine art papers.
We run ac all summer and humidifier all winter and that attention to humidity control has almost eliminated any serious clogging issues. Epson certainly had more to do with that than me but it sure is nice not having to unclog printers everyday.
Lots to chose from from $699 (8550), $1895 (P5000) and $2595 for the (P6000) No P900 on that list, too many issues.
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Further to my post about the Canon Pro-300 pigment printer, there is a video about B&W printing with it using the Canon Professional Print and Layout free plug-in. Canon have improved their B&W ink delivery apparently. The Youtube address is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-NzWJSl3gQ
Best wishes,
Jonathan
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You'll get the Epson enthusiasts waxing lyrical about Epsons and the Canon folk the same about Canon.
For what it's worth here's my experience with Canon printers (and I've had a few, with both dye and pigment inks).
If you are serious about printing buy a pigment printer. If you're serious about black and white make sure the printer has grey inks. Don't buy a printer where you have to do an ink swap when using different black inks for matt and gloss papers (wastes a lot of ink, and is fiddly and time consuming).
Canon Imageprograf Pro-1000
I've just acquired one. It produces stunning colour and B&W prints up to A2 (and slightly bigger). To replace a set of cartridges is eye-wateringly expensive but at 90ml they last for ever (I'm still trying to empty the ones which came with the printer, half the contents of which went during the set-up procedure); and per ml are much cheaper than Canon's smaller (but still good) printers. I'm not sure how this compares with Epson ink prices. One big bonus with the Pro-1000 is that it has a vacuum platen which keeps the paper flat and prevents head-strikes. I haven't had one head strike yet, despite using various slightly bowed art and baryta papers.
But it's big and heavy. You'll need space for it and two people to get it out of its box and lift it around.
For me, this printer comes highly recommended.
Epson have an A2 printer, the Epson SureColor SC-P900. I'l let the Epson owners wax lyrical about it.
I hope this helps. I'm happy to answer any questions I can.
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I'll second Dan's praise of the Epson P800. It replaced my workhorse 3800 and has done a fine job with all media types. Front loading fine art paper can be a challenge but I've got a 'system' by putting a standard copy paper in the back end, which provides a smooth 'ramp' to feed the thick fine art paper from the front. Works every time. Love the larger carts and ability to print the occasional 17x22. Mostly 13x19 for me (or smaller). Great printer.
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Dan Great post, would love the 5000, and could afford it, but space is beast and I'm just in large one bedroom apartment..large still not house.. So I think need house/ garage fpr 5000.?
So lean towards the P900, but you are not big fan of it? expensive inks? etc.... prints would cost double that that of 5000?. BTW, vs Canon pro 1000, even though know Epson guy ok , know bias, ok.. opinion on Epson P900 vs Canon Pro 1000?
Simon/ Randy, also great post. Yes serious printing: BW/ Color, to show to curators / galleries..
same question Canon pro 1000 then vs Epson P900 (though open to other ideas) The two seem to be finalist currently.
loading issues, longevity prints, cost of print, ease of use. But big one --seeing PC Mag gave a bit higher rating for ability of Roll Print for Epson.
Isn't that a big thing.. You could then print 17 x 28" or 17 x 30 prints? Just imagine that would wild/ great../ huge and cool no?
But could live with fixed 17cx 22 as well, opinions on that?
How difficult is it though to find portfolio cases to carry the odd large sizes like that to gallery.... And does Epson come with cutter? how much more pita to have roll ability? ie it going from roll to fix print size.. and if pita worth it to have roll option? Thanks!
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Loading the Pro-1000 is very easy. Two options – normal top-feed paper tray and rear loading slot for heavier papers. Unfortunately, no roll feed but you can print up to 594mm (23.4") in length and 432mm (17") width but you'd have to cut this from an A1 sheet or a roll. You use the manual feed tray at the rear. I haven't tried this but intend to some time soon. It seemed pretty simple for a YouTube video I watched.
The jury is out on longevity. There are some schools of thought that believe the Epson has greater longevity. I honestly don't know, but most modern pigment inks are pretty good and I'm sure both Epson and Canon have put a considerable amount of investment and work into ensuring their inks are long lasting, particularly as these are printers intended for 'professional' use.
Don't underestimate the vacuum platen. Does the Epson have this ? I'm not sure.
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Unfortunately, no roll feed but you can print up to 594mm (23.4") in length and 432mm (17") width but you'd have to cut this from an A1 sheet or a roll. You use the manual feed tray at the rear. I haven't tried this but intend to some time soon. It seemed pretty simple for a YouTube video I watched.
Actually already in late 2019 Canon releases a new firmware that extended the maximum length to 120cm. So you can print relatively large panoramas now. I recently did some larger prints and it worked really well and straight forward with paper cut from a 17" roll. You can find a few photos of the process on my website:
https://www.the-ninth.com/blog/large-panoramic-prints-with-the-pro-1000
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Actually already in late 2019 Canon releases a new firmware that extended the maximum length to 120cm. So you can print relatively large panoramas now. I recently did some larger prints and it worked really well and straight forward with paper cut from a 17" roll. You can find a few photos of the process on my website:
https://www.the-ninth.com/blog/large-panoramic-prints-with-the-pro-1000
You are absolutely right !
My apologies for giving out of date information.
And thank you for your clear instructions and video.
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Ninth, great post on your site.
But Canon 1000 with roll, it's still not made for rolls, so you are jerry rigging it, and then using external paper cutter?
The Epson 900 guessing, is made for many rolls and has cutter in printer?
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The Epson 900 guessing, is made for many rolls and has cutter in printer?
Has an optional roll feeder, but no cutter.
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But Canon 1000 with roll, it's still not made for rolls, so you are jerry rigging it, and then using external paper cutter?
Yes, exactly, I cut the paper first and then feed it into the printer. I'd say that works well enough for occasional use, if you'd like to print on roll paper on a daily basis then the PRO-1000 is probably not the right printer.
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What about pizza wheels - is that true that the Canon 1000 with its vacuum handling leaves no pizza wheels or it works everywhere except the last few inches - what's deal here. I get conflicting reports on that one. I know the Epson P900 has no vacuum so pizza wheels are at least theoretically possible based on the media/speed and your personal luck.
:Niranjan.
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I'm pretty sure that Canon printers don't use pizza wheels.
I've found no signs of pizza wheel tiptoe footprints with the Pro-1000. In fact, I've never seen this with any of the Canon printers, both 'pro' and office, that I've owned over the years.
Of course, now one of my printer will prove me wrong ! But I think you can be pretty sure that with the vacuum platen the Pro-1000 doesn't use them.
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Spoke to leader in field about canon 1000 vs Epson 900.
I lean to the Canon, but geez, out 6 years now.. Hate to buy it and then come out with the new one in few months...
Any feedback on that? Wait? Anyone own both and prefer the Epson?
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I'm pretty sure that Canon printers don't use pizza wheels.
I've found no signs of pizza wheel tiptoe footprints with the Pro-1000. In fact, I've never seen this with any of the Canon printers, both 'pro' and office, that I've owned over the years.
Of course, now one of my printer will prove me wrong ! But I think you can be pretty sure that with the vacuum platen the Pro-1000 doesn't use them.
Thanks for getting back. You are not seeing (touch wood!) those pizza wheels but does it mean it does not have them physically inside their printer? For example, this is typical of many places where they claim presence of pizza wheels on Pro 1000.
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4016420#forum-post-57915561
The only reason I would buy a Canon against an Epson would be if I am guaranteed absence of pizza wheels in the former - but so far, your reassurance notwithstanding, I am not convinced.
:Niranjan.
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Kevs:
Canon may or may not be bringing out a replacement for the PRO-1000. I haven't heard or seen any rumours of anything. The advantage of buying mature technology is that most of the bugs have been ironed-out. If Canon ever replace the 1000 then the inks will undoubtedly become cheaper than those for the new model (at least, my experience).
Niranjan:
I was, once again, wrong. I've peered inside my PRO-1000 with a torch and there are indeed pizza wheels. They are very small with tiny spikes and interface with rubber rollers at the exit slot from the printer. I haven't yet seen any marks from these on any prints I've made so far (of course, now I'll get obsessional about this and be on the look-out for marks). I couldn't see any more elsewhere in the paper path but not all of the path is open for inspection.
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Also no signs of pizza wheels in my prints with the PRO-1000 …
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OK. Thanks Simon and TheNinth for more first hand info.
So it looks like the vacuum is aided in some form by the pizza wheels - may be not all the time, but sometime during the journey of the paper. Perhaps the pressure needed on the wheel is not as high as it might otherwise be required in absence of vacuum. The overall probability of seeing those marks on the print might be diminished as a result. Perhaps it is correlated to media settings and printing speed. In any case, there should be expectations of improvement over comparable Epson models that do not have vacuum, but not for complete elimination.
:Niranjan.
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OK. Thanks Simon and TheNinth for more first hand info.
So it looks like the vacuum is aided in some form by the pizza wheels - may be not all the time, but sometime during the journey of the paper. Perhaps the pressure needed on the wheel is not as high as it might otherwise be required in absence of vacuum. The overall probability of seeing those marks on the print might be diminished as a result. Perhaps it is correlated to media settings and printing speed. In any case, there should be expectations of improvement over comparable Epson models that do not have vacuum, but not for complete elimination.
:Niranjan.
I think the pizza wheels are just there to help draw the paper from the printer. The platen and vacuum unit, and where the head travels up and down, are 2-3cm behind the pizza wheels / rubber rollers, by my estimation. So I don't think they play any part in keeping the paper flat as such.
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Spoke to leader in field about canon 1000 vs Epson 900.
I lean to the Canon, but geez, out 6 years now.. Hate to buy it and then come out with the new one in few months...
Any feedback on that? Wait? Anyone own both and prefer the Epson?
I use an iPF8300. It runs like an atomic clock. I've replaced print heads a few times (in pairs), many maintenance tanks, and inks, without any problems. However, Canon does not officially support the printer beyond Mac OS 10.13 (High Sierra). >:(
As I ready my studio for Apple Silicon 'puters, I plan on keeping an old Intel Mac on 10.13 just as a print server.
Before my Canon I ran an Epson 9600. For its generation, it had great output. However, I was *always* cleaning heads and replacing maintenance tanks commensurate with the amount of ink used to clean the heads. The Canon bubble jet tech requires far less head cleaning.
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I use an iPF8300. It runs like an atomic clock. I've replaced print heads a few times (in pairs), many maintenance tanks, and inks, without any problems. However, Canon does not officially support the printer beyond Mac OS 10.13 (High Sierra). >:(
As I ready my studio for Apple Silicon 'peters, I plan on keeping an old Intel Mac on 10.13 just as a print server.
Before my Canon I ran an Epson 9600. For its generation, it had great output. However, I was *always* cleaning heads and replacing maintenance tanks commensurate with the amount of ink used to clean the heads. The Canon bubble jet tech requires far less head cleaning.
Chris, I'm not sure where you got this information but the PRO-1000 is currently supported all the way up to 10.11, Big Sur.
See: Canon PRO-1000 driver support (https://www.canon.co.uk/support/consumer_products/products/printers/inkjet/other_series/imageprograf_pro-1000.html?type=drivers&language=&os=macos%2010.13%20(high%20sierra))
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Simon thanks... but if new one comes out then you have 6 years of customer recommendations going into the new version right? ANd probably have Roll option? I Just got 6 year old Canon DLSR (new) and on sale 70% off, you would think the pro 1000 would be 1/2 off at least at this point...
Do you have opinion on Pro 1000 vs Epson 900, Epson just out couple years right with the roll capability.
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Simon thanks... but if new one comes out then you have 6 years of customer recommendations going into the new version right? ANd probably have Roll option? I Just got 6 year old Canon DLSR (new) and on sale 70% off, you would think the pro 1000 would be 1/2 off at least at this point...
Do you have opinion on Pro 1000 vs Epson 900, Epson just out couple years right with the roll capability.
Hi Kevs. I can only really speak about Canon since I am a happy owner. I guess Canon might come-out with a roll option for a future A2 printer. As Canon do not seeem to be discounting the PRO-1000 at the moment this might be an indication that they do not intend to replace it any time soon. See if you can find Mark Segal's reviews of Epson and Canon printers (this site and PhotoPXL) and Keith Cooper's at Northlight. They are in-depth reviewers.
My only observation about Epson v Canon printers is that Epson owners post a lot about head clogs and Canon owners rarely (if ever ?). Certainly I have never experienced a head clog with any of my Canon printers. But Epson may have improved on this in recent years and it would be better to hear from an Epson owner on this.
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Thanks Simon good info. Yeah, as said lean to Canon, pity, it's not machine that just came out.. ok see where goes...
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I have a Canon Pro-10, and a Pro-1000, as well as a HP Z3200(44"). I came from an Epson 7900, among other Epson models. While I had a love with Epson, I also had a hate. SO after the Pro4K, and the 7900 clogging and inks gone to waste, Also paper path issues....I dropped Epson, and SOOO much happier. Let me stress the word happier. The Canon or HP are not trouble free printers! For example, the HP has some buggy software that they have been improving over the past decade plus. But I do love it, and it is good on inks, heads are replaceable!! BIG FACTOR! and the hardware is mostly very good. Changed belt 2x, and a few other things, but have had it a very long time now.
The Pro-10 is great, and the Pro 1000 is a good amount greater. The Pro1000 is a pretty AMAZING printer. But guess what? Mine is not working perfect anymore. You ask why? Well, I moved it without keeping it level! This is very annoying. If there is such a limitation, you'd think it would be at least labeled with stickers on the opening doors to remind you, and maybe an ATTENTION label on top the printer...Really anything more than inside the manual. I just moved it from upstairs to down stairs, and this was enough to tilt ink into the main area. Otherwise, it is built like a tank. You can learn more about it on youtube watching Jose Rodriguez. I also use the Precision Color inks on it, and that was also working great.
But, now I have to think about taking a DEEP dive into disassembling the thing to clean it properly. It has sat and I have not used it, so its likely got more issues now as well!
So the HP is really still the work horse. Except, I am having trouble clearing a head clog with it now. I am hoping there is an easy way to saturate the tubes!
FYI, all issues I have had other than moving the Pro1K is due to not running the printers. I have to say HP is AMAZING at this. Canon is pretty darn good as well. And I dont have experience with recent Epsons, so I cant comment. But the other 2 HP has a internal ccycle it does and so does Canon, and very little ink is wasted. I also have QImage, and think it is worth getting, as you can program your own intervals from daily to weekly. Also print job management is very nice for gang print layouts.
As far as your first post of which is better....
Print quality has been so good for a number of years on all these brands that the limiting factor is on the users ability to maximize the process in print results.
But as for printer build quality, I would not buy a printer without replaceable print heads.
Hope this helps....Oh..One more thing I would consider, if you have the space, or perhaps it is just doing a job for a specific reason and size...
What ever size you want, go for 1 size larger :-)
I started with 13x19, yet now the 44" is pretty perfect, but a 60" might be even better...LOLOL! nah, 44" is pretty great. But as mentioned if you can squeeze it in, you with have an epiphany breakthrough later. This is also why the Pro1000 is great. 17 wide is just enough to keep someone happy without going off the desk large format for a long time. Also, do not buy these used. They can have issues you simply cannot fix without cost of it being rational.
Take away from my experience for anyone buying a printer...make SURE you use it regularly!
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Nice post Raffi, does the HP to roll printing? Wish you had the Epson 900 to compare with has that feature...
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Yes, the HP z3200 is a large printer, 44" so it is roll and cut sheets. I did have a HP 130, and that was more of a cut sheet no roll printer(I cant actually remember if it was roll or not..hmm, It had a paper tray), and while it was limited in some respects, it did fit on a large desk, and made some deep black nice prints for a dye based older model printer. Just mentioning for size comparisons. Not a printer I would recommend in general.
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Looking for recommendations in the 13 x19 in that zone. Is there a Canon or Epson that stands out? I used to be fully Epson, but I hear that Canon have matched them now... Thanks.
If you have no intention of printing wider than 13", and you can live with shorter print longevity - the Canon Pro-200 is a no-brainer. You can print up to 30" long, and the dye inks make head clogging a non-issue. With pigment printers (and especially epsons) you have to use them FREQUENTLY to prevent the heads from clogging (canon printers have user replaceable heads). I use modified Epsons for piezography black and white prints but for color I would always recommend a Canon. And with dye inks - you can make INCREDIBLE hi gloss prints using Pictorico ultra gloss white FILM without any gloss differential 😜