Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: deanwork on February 11, 2022, 02:13:02 pm
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There probably isn’t such a thing but I need to research.
The cheapest smooth natural fine art papers that I’ve used are Moab Entrada ( which went up recently ) and Epson Hot Press natural. But these aren’t that cost effective either these days.
I have a client that wants to do nearly 100 bw 30x40s and is looking for a price point lower than I’ve quoted for half of them. I’m looking for something that prints very well but doesn’t have to have stellar longevity for this design firm to put in their new buildings. Definitely don’t want rc media and would like to avoid bluish optical brighteners.
I haven’t worked with any of the Breathing Color matte papers in years and their prices aren’t cheap these days either.
John
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You could take a look at Red River. I use their 47lb matt paper for image eval before putting in something expensive. They make a thicker version which you'd probably be more interested in or the more expensive Polar Matt. I've not looked at prices vs BC or Moab though it looks like only Polar matt is available in 36 and 44" rolls right now. The Polar matt does list brighteners in the spec but the Premium Matt's don't mention one way or the other.
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There is also Proof Line Premium Matte 10 mil, 230 gsm - at ITSupplies, it's $165.58 for a 44 inch x 130 ft. roll: "Premium Matte Paper is modeled on the most popular inkjet Matte paper on the market. The microporous coating provides an excellent surface to hold the darkest of Black Points and is designed for high quality fine art & photographic reproduction print applications with Inkjet / Giclee technology." It's not clear if it has OBAs.
Proof Line Premium Matte (https://www.itsupplies.com/Proof-Line-Premium-Matte-Paper-10mil-230gsm-44x130-p/pm23044.htm)
Tony
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Thanks guys. I must have 44” rolls and Polar White RR is way too bluish bright . I have never tried Proofline 240 gsm matte media. I’m going to order some to test. I only need it for bw right now so color gamut isn’t a factor. That is a fantastic price both from itt and shades of paper. I need to have a quality lower cost option here that doesn’t flake is fairly sharp and absorbs ink well.
John
There is also Proof Line Premium Matte 10 mil, 230 gsm - at ITSupplies, it's $165.58 for a 44 inch x 130 ft. roll: "Premium Matte Paper is modeled on the most popular inkjet Matte paper on the market. The microporous coating provides an excellent surface to hold the darkest of Black Points and is designed for high quality fine art & photographic reproduction print applications with Inkjet / Giclee technology." It's not clear if it has OBAs.
Proof Line Premium Matte (https://www.itsupplies.com/Proof-Line-Premium-Matte-Paper-10mil-230gsm-44x130-p/pm23044.htm)
Tony
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John:
I've been using Red River Aurora Natural for years. Price just went up to $81/ 24x50' roll 300gms.
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As long as it's handled carefully this should work:
https://www.itsupplies.com/Premier-Deluxe-Smooth-Presentation-Matte-Paper-p/8520-444.htm
http://www.premierimagingproducts.com/smooth-hot-press-fine-art-paper/
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If you can get hold of it then Felix Schoeller True Rag Etching 310g (J24770) is great. Round here it's more affordable than all the other 300g cotton fine art papers. Also it handles very well in framing, it's a stiff 300g paper.
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John:
I've been using Red River Aurora Natural for years. ...
I'm also a fan of Red River Aurora Natural, as well as their satin roll paper (sprayed with Print Shield) where glassless display is anticipated.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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What I would like is the Felix Schoeller smooth rag and their etching media, but see no suppliers in the US. Do I have to order from Germany? That’s risky to get supply quickly if needed.
Could it be that the Red River IS the same material?
Looks like I’m going to stick with Entrada whenever I can. It’s a great paper though more expensive now, but not in Canson or Hahnemuehle range.
From other posts I see that the Epson Hot Press has been discontinued and they offer some replacement that has reduced dmax?
John
If you can get hold of it then Felix Schoeller True Rag Etching 310g (J24770) is great. Round here it's more affordable than all the other 300g cotton fine art papers. Also it handles very well in framing, it's a stiff 300g paper.
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I've got a very specialized operation and exclusively use HP Premium Matte Photo Paper, to the tune of about 6 miles of 24" rolls annually. I use it because it does fine for my purposes and is relatively cheap at around $80/roll delivered by the palette load direct from the manufacturer. I've used similar Red River products that were a bit less expensive, but for my purposes didn't work because of the difficulty rolling them up (there's a quality about the back of the HP stock that lets me roll prints really fast).
I'd be interested in hearing others' opinions about HP Premium Matte. I don't claim to be an expert- I just know how to do what I do.
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Just a quick FYI - Epson Hot Press Bright and Natural (in the U.S.) have had the same part numbers since 2010, and has not been discontinued. Our supplier just got a bunch of it in (it has been back ordered, but most sizes are now in stock).
Tony
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You are correct it has not been discontinued like someone posted .
The problem though is the mottling and flaking of the coating that is going on. There are lots of reports of that. I’ll stick with Moab Entrada for natural white and the Epson Legacy or Arches for brighter white. I wish there was a source for Felix Schoeller fine art media in the US. Probably wouldn’t be prudent for his relationship with Epson and Canson. Shipping from Germany would cancel any price advantage.
Just a quick FYI - Epson Hot Press Bright and Natural (in the U.S.) have had the same part numbers since 2010, and has not been discontinued. Our supplier just got a bunch of it in (it has been back ordered, but most sizes are now in stock).
Tony
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Cheapest we have used is Epson Enhanced Matte on 24" rolls is 200 sq. ft. for $60.00. Free shipping from Lexjet.
A nice economy paper
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I'll second the vote on Epson Enhanced Matte. It's thin, so I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for hand-held portfolio prints. But mounted or framed, it has amazingly good image quality. Print some 8.5x11 test prints against any of the cotton rags, and you'll be surprised. When I had a Canon printer, i had a custom profile made so I could use it.
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Cheapest we have used is Epson Enhanced Matte on 24" rolls is 200 sq. ft. for $60.00. Free shipping from Lexjet.
A nice economy paper
That is the paper that changed its name over time when it became more and more clear that the paper white shifted color due to the OBA content. Is it actually still called Enhanced Matte? I thought Epson dropped that label too. Aardenburg-Imaging has a test file on it AFAIK.
190 grams. I see in the different replies quite a diversity of weights, qualities and corresponding prices.
My choice for years now is the Innova IFA24 210 grams, most likely a Felix Schoeller product and 200 grams. 10 grams difference to the true weight is quite common. Dual coated exists too in sheet sizes.
SpectrumViz screengrab added. The brown plot showing OBA content is the Epson paper. Red pike is showing what a heavy OBA only effect would be.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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That is the paper that changed its name over time when it became more and more clear that the paper white shifted color due to the OBA content. Is it actually still called Enhanced Matte? I thought Epson dropped that label too.
It has changed its name several times, and it is named differently in different markets. It was originally Epson Archival (hah!) Matte, and is still sold under than name in some markets, despite not being archival by any reasonable definition. In many markets Epson changed it to Epson Enhanced Matte, and again, is still sold under that name in some markets. In some countries the sheets are currently sold as EAM and the rolls as EEM. Some years ago it was renamed again to the catchy title of Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte, at least in some markets.
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Ernst that sounds like a good one for me to try. What is the fade resistance of the Innova? I used to have bad ink absorption and bad batches with matte Innova, but that was a long time ago.
Enhanced Matte looked good, for about an hour until it started to turn gray in the borders right in our studio a few months after printing . It was garbage. I had a client show a bunch of works in a commercial exhibition space with lots of uv exposure . The big prints started turning noticeably gray in a few days even before the show cane down. Even the colors faded. That was the last straw for me. That was about 20 years ago.
That is the paper that changed its name over time when it became more and more clear that the paper white shifted color due to the OBA content. Is it actually still called Enhanced Matte? I thought Epson dropped that label too. Aardenburg-Imaging has a test file on it AFAIK.
190 grams. I see in the different replies quite a diversity of weights, qualities and corresponding prices.
My choice for years now is the Innova IFA24 210 grams, most likely a Felix Schoeller product and 200 grams. 10 grams difference to the true weight is quite common. Dual coated exists too in sheet sizes.
SpectrumViz screengrab added. The brown plot showing OBA content is the Epson paper. Red pike is showing what a heavy OBA only effect would be.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Ernst that sounds like a good one for me to try. What is the fade resistance of the Innova? I used to have bad ink absorption and bad batches with matte Innova, but that was a long time ago.
Enhanced Matte looked good, for about an hour until it started to turn gray in the borders right in our studio a few months after printing . It was garbage. I had a client show a bunch of works in a commercial exhibition space with lots of uv exposure . The big prints started turning noticeably gray in a few days even before the show cane down. Even the colors faded. That was the last straw for me. That was about 20 years ago.
A longer reply was lost half an hour ago. Telegram style: Check Felix Schoeller pages on EU "archival" certificates, if there are any. I doubt there are independent test results. In practice: I have for more than at least 5 years, prints hanging in all rooms, made with that paper. Laminated to white HIPS with archival mounting tape. No glass in front. Compared to fresh sheets I see no paper white shifts. I have not heard issues from customers either. For them it is used for posters.
One issue is that paperfish like it. So if framed behind glass or stored in stacks you may see trails sometimes. Probably a starch in the coating they like. I would not frame it loose between backing and glass either. Too thin and waves in the paper will form.
Image quality is really good. Not a totally smooth texture but like normal Photorag but a bit more directionally in fibers.
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Cool. Thanks
:)A longer reply was lost half an hour ago. Telegram style: Check Felix Schoeller pages on EU "archival" certificates, if there are any. I doubt there are independent test results. In practice: I have for more than at least 5 years, prints hanging in all rooms, made with that paper. Laminated to white HIPS with archival mounting tape. No glass in front. Compared to fresh sheets I see no paper white shifts. I have not heard issues from customers either. For them it is used for posters.
One issue is that paperfish like it. So if framed behind glass or stored in stacks you may see trails sometimes. Probably a starch in the coating they like. I would not frame it loose between backing and glass either. Too thin and waves in the paper will form.
Image quality is really good. Not a totally smooth texture but like normal Photorag but a bit more directionally in fibers.
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I've made some use of that paper over the past 15 years or so, and I've never seen any of the problems that John described. It's a good quality cheaper paper that I have used for less serious things. Sometimes as a proofing paper, although it's cooler and brighter than rag papers that I'd use for final prints.
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That is the paper that changed its name over time when it became more and more clear that the paper white shifted color due to the OBA content. Is it actually still called Enhanced Matte? I thought Epson dropped that label too. Aardenburg-Imaging has a test file on it AFAIK.
190 grams. I see in the different replies quite a diversity of weights, qualities and corresponding prices.
My choice for years now is the Innova IFA24 210 grams, most likely a Felix Schoeller product and 200 grams. 10 grams difference to the true weight is quite common. Dual coated exists too in sheet sizes.
SpectrumViz screengrab added. The brown plot showing OBA content is the Epson paper. Red pike is showing what a heavy OBA only effect would be.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
Agree with IF24, a very high printquality.
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It’s cooler and bluer because it has cheap oba in the coating, not in the paper base, which when exposed to uv light turns gray. This isn’t my opinion, thousands of people have experienced this for over 20/years. When we all complained in a big way 20 years ago when we saw it changing in our studios, Epson changed the name to “enhanced matte” and abandoned the term archival matte. The problem was Wilhelm had incorrect fade data published on it because the white point darkening was not taken into consideration ( that is an ongoing issue with his tests, like the rc Epson media. ) I would never dream of selling anything made on this paper. Anytime you see a paper that has a bluish cast, look out. Put that stuff under a black light and watch it glow like crazy.
John
I've made some use of that paper over the past 15 years or so, and I've never seen any of the problems that John described. It's a good quality cheaper paper that I have used for less serious things. Sometimes as a proofing paper, although it's cooler and brighter than rag papers that I'd use for final prints.
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It’s cooler and bluer because it has cheap oba in the coating, not in the paper base, which when exposed to uv light turns gray. .... I would never dream of selling anything made on this paper.
Its OBA content is well-known. No, I wouldn't dream of selling anything on it either. It's probably not an option for the client in your OP, unless the prints are only for short-term use. But I haven't seen it turn gray, and as an inexpensive paper for non-critical and non-commercial uses, it's a viable option.
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Just noticed that IFA24 is almost a dead ringer for Canson Rag Photographique, according to Ernst's Spectrum Viz (having a client in tomorrow to do a lot of proofing for a show that'll likely be on CRP, so will run initial tests with both to confirm on reference images.
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Very interesting Schoeller coats that also? Could be pigment brightners in it too. That could be exactly what I’m looking for.
Innova is calling it Museum Quality with no oba.
https://innovaart.com/product/decor-smooth-art-210gsm-ifa-24/
When Innova started making fine papers to challenge Hahnemuehle about 18 years ago several of us used their smooth matte papers because Enhanced Matte was not lasting, but had a lot of really bad problems with ink absorption, especially large areas of black would produce mottling. But if Felix Schoeller is doing the coating now that would be great. I’m going to try it . It sounds like exactly what I’m looking for.
John
Just noticed that IFA24 is almost a dead ringer for Canson Rag Photographique, according to Ernst's Spectrum Viz (having a client in tomorrow to do a lot of proofing for a show that'll likely be on CRP, so will run initial tests with both to confirm on reference images.
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Did a show that went up at Cop26, lots of industrial landscapes. Hand rolled profiles on an 8400, great shadow definition, zero cockling. Profile was based on Canon's lowest ink level, all on IFA24. Chose that paper as it had the lowest carbon profile I could find.
Still use plenty of EEM, as for short term usage, it's a great paper.
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I called it economy paper for a reason. It is really inexpensive and we get a lot of customers that want decent/nice prints but don't want to spend much money.
We do quite a few posters and at .30 a sq. ft. it is as cheap as it gets. Really, really good for many uses, commercial exhibitions or art shows maybe not.
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I called it economy paper for a reason. It is really inexpensive and we get a lot of customers that want decent/nice prints but don't want to spend much money.
We do quite a few posters and at .30 a sq. ft. it is as cheap as it gets. Really, really good for many uses, commercial exhibitions or art shows maybe not.
Where are you getting IFA24 at $0.30/sq ft? itsupplies has it at $0.89.
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Can only concur. Beautiful print quality at a very nice pricepoint.
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Where are you getting IFA24 at $0.30/sq ft? itsupplies has it at $0.89.
I was referencing Epson Enhanced Matt 24" x 100 ft. $62 with free shipping from Lexjet.
I purchased a 44" roll about 3 years ago and it was about $90 delivered.
Only $105 today.
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Hi,
I just started using Canon heavy-weight coated matte paper from B&H in New York (not sure where you're located). I like it a lot. Matte paper is tricky because it scuffs easily and I found this more scuff resistant while still having a nice matte finish.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/488222-REG/Canon_0849V342_Heavyweight_Matte_Coated_Paper.html
Hope that helps.
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Thank you. I’ve never tried it. Is it bluish or less brightners? It’s hard to fine one that is neither warm or bluish cold with too much brighteners.
Hi,
I just started using Canon heavy-weight coated matte paper from B&H in New York (not sure where you're located). I like it a lot. Matte paper is tricky because it scuffs easily and I found this more scuff resistant while still having a nice matte finish.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/488222-REG/Canon_0849V342_Heavyweight_Matte_Coated_Paper.html
Hope that helps.