Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Louie on July 29, 2021, 11:02:08 am

Title: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Louie on July 29, 2021, 11:02:08 am
Hi Folks,

Time to replace my ageing Eizo CG241W. Apple and Eizo have conspired to make it impossible move to Catalina or Big Sur. And to be honest it is probably old enough to take it out of the critical color managed workflow. So it will be left on the desktop as a second monitor.

The question I am putting to the collective knowledge is what are the consideration between the NEC PA271Q and the Eizo CS2731.

I have been leaning towards the NEC PA in the past due to better pricing and better calibration software (SpectraView). ColorNavigator 6 did a good job but was limited in flexible options. I can't even try ColorNavigator 7 since Eizo did not continue support for my CG241W. Ugg!

I am interested in your thoughts on what are the key benefits and limitations to each of these choices.

Please limit your comments to either NEC or Eizo as other manufactures are not under consideration.

Thanks in advance.

-louie
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: MichaelKoerner on July 29, 2021, 01:48:04 pm
I'm a big fan of my PA271Q. Unfortunately, according to my local supplier, NEC quits producing/selling high end graphic monitors. Be quick, if you want one.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on July 29, 2021, 02:03:36 pm
I'm a big fan of my PA271Q.
I'll second that.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Daverich on July 29, 2021, 03:24:27 pm
I'm a big fan of my PA271Q. Unfortunately, according to my local supplier, NEC quits producing/selling high end graphic monitors. Be quick, if you want one.

You’re the second person on this forum to make that claim recently and yet I just got a PA311D from B&H after a 6 week wait for them to have them back in stock. I just checked and they’re out of stock on that model again although they still have the version that includes the spectro. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I don’t have any information to the contrary but it seems odd that they would be out of stock and then get them again if NEC stopped producing new ones. And has been pointed out in a different thread, Sharp/NEC is still listing them as current on their web site.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: MichaelKoerner on July 29, 2021, 04:56:48 pm
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I don’t have any information to the contrary but it seems odd that they would be out of stock and then get them again if NEC stopped producing new ones. And has been pointed out in a different thread, Sharp/NEC is still listing them as current on their web site.

Interesting - just checked my supplier's website (https://www.dr-juergen-krueger.de/monitore_fur_bildbearbeitung_und_design.htm): "Unfortunately, NEC Spectraview Reference monitors are no longer available". Perhaps this is true for Europe/Germany only, but AFAIK this dealer had to reshape his whole business model, as those monitors were one of his mainstay of sales.

However, as monitors don't need spare parts/long term service, there is nothing to say against buying NEC these days - regardless any rumours. In my opinion, price performance ratio speaks in favor of NEC.

But there seem to be variations in quality, at least with PA271Q. I'd recommend to check the report function of Spectraview/Display 6 on a new machine as soon as possible, in order to get it replaced if dE exceeded 1.5 in the shadows. Just my 2c.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Daverich on July 30, 2021, 10:21:08 am

However, as monitors don't need spare parts/long term service, there is nothing to say against buying NEC these days - regardless any rumours. In my opinion, price performance ratio speaks in favor of NEC.

But there seem to be variations in quality, at least with PA271Q. I'd recommend to check the report function of Spectraview/Display 6 on a new machine as soon as possible, in order to get it replaced if dE exceeded 1.5 in the shadows. Just my 2c.

I agree about the idea of buying a discontinued NEC as my previous one gave me 7 or 8 years of trouble free service. It would probably do the same for much longer but I was itching to get a larger, higher resolution setup. According to Spectraview, maximum dE variation on the new monitor is .6 whereas the older one was 1.2. So, discontinued or still current, I’m set for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Louie on July 31, 2021, 04:01:29 pm
Thanks for the feedback. I have not seen any other reference to NEC's plans to discontinue the PA series. Be that as it may I have picked up several more comments that the their quality control is not so great where people have had to send back monitors before getting one that is fully functional. My primary source for all things "Color" Chromix.com (http://Chromix.com) has dropped the line for that reason.

Given all that I think I will  probably get another Eizo even though I am still annoyed that they have dropped support for CG241W in CN7. I have yet to take the steps of upgrading my CPU and OS that will make CN6 (32bit only) stop working. This is it self an expensive project as I will need to move all my SATA and eSATA drives to Thunderbolt enclosure to work with a new Mac Mini. Since everything is working it is hard to get enthusiastic about laying out $2K or $3K just to have a functionally equivalent.

Maybe I'll wait for the second round of the M1 Mac Mini.

-louie

Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: TechTalk on July 31, 2021, 11:16:33 pm
You certainly have made a great choice in dealing with Chromix "for all things color". I've used their ColorThink software for years and they have an extraordinary depth of knowledge.

If you would like to keep using your current Eizo CG241W with macOS Big Sur or Catalina, you might consider using basICColor display 6 (https://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-display-2-en-US/) which can be used to hardware calibrate your current monitor, among other things. It is available (http://chromix.com/colorgear/shop/productdetail.cxsa?toolid=50352) from Chromix and is compatible with macOS Big Sur and your CG241W. The product page at the basICColor website has a link to email them for a demo license. It also works with a wide range of measuring instruments, including the Eizo monitors with built-in auto calibrator.

There is a pretty comprehensive review of basICColor display 6 (https://photopxl.com/basiccolor-display-6-monitor-profiling-software/) at PhotoPXL. They also have a review of basICColor display 6 Pro (https://photopxl.com/basiccolor-display-6-pro/) as well. I'm sure the folks at Chromix would be happy to discuss these options with you. Even if you're using the Eizo or NEC calibration software with your monitor, there may be advantages to incorporating basICColor display 6 alongside them.

I can certainly empathize with products that you like becoming End of Life (EOL) and no longer supported. My Chromix ColorThink software is no longer supported in the later versions of macOS, though I can upgrade to the Pro version at additional cost. Loss of compatibility and support is something I've been through now multiple times with various OS versions, hardware, and software. Likely, I will again... sigh. Oh well, better loss of compatibility and support with the hardware and software in my life than the people in it!
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: TechTalk on July 31, 2021, 11:55:11 pm
Interesting - just checked my supplier's website (https://www.dr-juergen-krueger.de/monitore_fur_bildbearbeitung_und_design.htm): "Unfortunately, NEC Spectraview Reference monitors are no longer available". Perhaps this is true for Europe/Germany only, but AFAIK this dealer had to reshape his whole business model, as those monitors were one of his mainstay of sales.

"NEC Spectraview Reference monitors are no longer available". That's correct. The NEC SpectraView Reference Series is discontinued. "Reference Series" branded models like the SpectraView Reference 322UHD (https://www.sharpnecdisplays.eu/p/eeme/en/launch/svref322uhd.xhtml), the Reference 301 (https://www.sharpnecdisplays.eu/p/download/cp/Products/DesktopLCDs/Products/SupportedProducts/Reference301/Datasheets/Datasheet-(english).pdf), the Reference 241 (https://www.sharpnecdisplays.eu/p/download/v/73b7e0aa3cafe7d4306020e913324d89/cp/Products/DesktopLCDs/Products/SupportedProducts/Reference241/Datasheets/Datasheet-%28english%29.pdf?fn=NEC_Datasheet_Reference241-english.pdf) are all discontinued and the "Reference" series branding retired. Perhaps the fact that the term "reference monitor" has a specific meaning in the film and broadcast industries, which would not include the previously mentioned NEC models, was a factor in dropping "reference" from the branding convention being used.

These are the current models from NEC. (https://www.sharpnecdisplays.eu/p/eeme/en/products/choice.xhtml?cat=LCD&mg=PROFESSIONAL_DISPLAYS) They are listed as "Professional Display" models instead of "reference models". Your supplier appears to be offering the current models for sale. Perhaps his "whole business model" didn't have to be reshaped as much as you believe.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: MichaelKoerner on August 01, 2021, 02:48:39 am

Your supplier appears to be offering the current models for sale. Perhaps his "whole business model" didn't have to be reshaped as much as you believe.

Thanks for clearing up! Seems to be another example of misleading hearsay :-)
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: John Hollenberg on August 01, 2021, 11:28:18 am
B&H lists the PA271Q with spectraview as available and the PA271Q without spectraview as discontinued.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Louie on August 02, 2021, 08:53:09 am
If you would like to keep using your current Eizo CG241W with macOS Big Sur or Catalina, you might consider using basICColor display 6 (https://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-display-2-en-US/) which can be used to hardware calibrate your current monitor, among other things. It is available (http://chromix.com/colorgear/shop/productdetail.cxsa?toolid=50352) from Chromix and is compatible with macOS Big Sur and your CG241W. The product page at the basICColor website has a link to email them for a demo license. It also works with a wide range of measuring instruments, including the Eizo monitors with built-in auto calibrator.

Thanks, I read the review and took a look at the Basiccolor web site. So this seems like a pretty good option which I will probably need anyway since I anticipate keeping the CG241W as a second monitor.

Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: MichaelKoerner on August 02, 2021, 12:10:43 pm
Thanks, I read the review and took a look at the Basiccolor web site. So this seems like a pretty good option which I will probably need anyway since I anticipate keeping the CG241W as a second monitor.

+1

I recommend the Pro version - it's "white point editor" is priceless for getting multiple monitors to match. "Homogeneity check" is a must, too. And if you like to tinker with different measurement devices (as I do), "sensor correlation" is a nice tool as well.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Louie on August 04, 2021, 08:29:35 am
+1

I recommend the Pro version - it's "white point editor" is priceless for getting multiple monitors to match. "Homogeneity check" is a must, too. And if you like to tinker with different measurement devices (as I do), "sensor correlation" is a nice tool as well.

Thanks for the additional tip.

-louie
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: TechTalk on August 19, 2021, 08:35:46 pm
With regard to availability of the NEC PA271Q, B&H now lists this model as discontinued (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1416626-REG/nec_pa271q_bk_27_color_critical_desktop.html?fromDisList=y). It is also listed as "no longer available" at Adorama (https://www.adorama.com/ncpa271qbk.html?EmailPrice=T). However, NEC still shows this model in their current offerings. The Eizo CS2731 is readily available (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1566862-REG/eizo_cs2731_bk_coloredge_cs2731_27_hardware.html) from B&H and Chromix (http://chromix.com/colorgear/shop/productdetail.cxsa?toolid=50356) as well as others.

I would consider the inclusion of the free Eizo ColorNavigator 7 (https://www.eizoglobal.com/products/coloredge/cn7/) and the overall features and performance when comparing the value for cost ratios of the Eizo CS2731 and NEC PA271Q. I have no brand preference and have been a long time user of both. For most of the last several years, I have generally worked with a combination of two NEC and one Eizo graphics monitors for different purposes in different locations (for example home/tethered capture in studio/office editing). PRAD has extensive reviews of the NEC PA271Q (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.prad.de/testberichte/test-nec-pa271q-grafik-monitor-mit-vollausstattung/&prev=search&pto=aue), Eizo CS2731 (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.prad.de/testberichte/test-eizo-cs2731-monitor-fuer-anspruchsvolle-kreative/&prev=search&pto=aue), and ColorNavigator 7 (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.prad.de/neue-version-eizo-colornavigator-7-ueberzeugt/&prev=search&pto=aue).

The Eizo monitor is compatible (https://www.eizoglobal.com/support/db/products/software/CS2731#tab02) with current Mac models including the M1. Any hardware issues were ones that affected all brands of monitors and most have been fixed since Apple updated to macOS 11.2. Color issues may still remain with certain cable types like HDMI, but with the CS2731 using USB-C and hardware calibration these are not an issue.

Eizo ColorNavigator 7 and basICColor Display 6 are also fully compatible with all the latest Mac hardware and macOS versions. NEC SpectraView II still has issues to be resolved (https://update.sharpnecdisplays.us/spectraview/NEC_SpectraView_README_MacOS_v1.1.42_Mac_M1_Special_Build.html). As NEC seems to be waiting for Apple to fix the problem, it's hard to say when their Mac M1 issue will be fully resolved. For that reason and since SpectraView II (https://www.sharpnecdisplays.us/support-and-services/spectraviewii/4#softwaredownloads/) software is an extra cost item, I think basICColor Display 6 might be a better choice for NEC monitor buyers right now.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on August 19, 2021, 08:59:53 pm
https://officewonderland.com/listings/nec-pa271q-bk-sv-27-169-color-critical-ips-monitor/
NEC PA271Q-BK-SV 27" 16:9 Color-Critical IPS Monitor with SpectraView II
Software and Colorimeter included.
$1,589.00

https://pssav.com/product/nec-multisync-pa271q-27-169-color-critical-ips-monitor-with-spectraview-ii-color-calibration/?gclid=CjwKCAjwgviIBhBkEiwA10D2j5wXvtZDCEV2SylPeA0Lsx9OiK3TN6LKodcrv0SQF9Iq22t4V7wWWhoCb28QAvD_BwE
$1,589.00 With Colorimeter and of course software.
There are other sellers out there. At least in the US where I'm searching.

No experience with M1 (with SpectraView or otherwise) but the read me you posted doesn't appear to be of any necessary concern AFAIK.
Quote
This special build avoids this issue by making certain assumptions about the displays in order to detect and communicate with them. It is intended as a temporary solution until Apple fixes the issues in a future macOS update, and it may not work in all cases. Only display models with a USB connection are supported.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: TechTalk on August 20, 2021, 12:55:07 am
https://officewonderland.com/listings/nec-pa271q-bk-sv-27-169-color-critical-ips-monitor/
NEC PA271Q-BK-SV 27" 16:9 Color-Critical IPS Monitor with SpectraView II
Software and Colorimeter included.
$1,589.00

https://pssav.com/product/nec-multisync-pa271q-27-169-color-critical-ips-monitor-with-spectraview-ii-color-calibration/?gclid=CjwKCAjwgviIBhBkEiwA10D2j5wXvtZDCEV2SylPeA0Lsx9OiK3TN6LKodcrv0SQF9Iq22t4V7wWWhoCb28QAvD_BwE
$1,589.00 With Colorimeter and of course software.
There are other sellers out there. At least in the US where I'm searching.

As I said... "However, NEC still shows this model in their current offerings." According to NEC, it is still a current model. No disagreement here.

Of course, all models are eventually discontinued. Even after a model is discontinued, they will generally be available from various retailers for some time afterward.

I might reasonably assume that B&H and Adorama would be happy to offer this model for sale on their website, if they could be assured that they could fulfill orders for them in any reasonable time frame. Given that this model is targeted at photographers, among others, and those are two of the major outlets where photographers purchase equipment, I thought the notices on their websites were worthy of notice—no disrespect to "office wonderland.com" or "pssav.com" intended, or to you either for that matter.

* Regarding price, Chromix is currently selling the Eizo CS2731 for $1,209 (after $30 rebate which appears after adding to cart) and of course ColorNavigator 7 software is free. It's $380 less than the NEC PA271Q + SpectraView II + Colorimeter bundle, if you don't need a colorimeter. If you do need a colorimeter, it's $259 for an i1Display Pro at B&H which leaves a total price difference of $120 less. B&H offers the CS2731 with Eizo colorimeter for $1,359 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1566863-REG/eizo_cs2731_bk_cnx_coloredge_cs2731_27_hardware.html), $130 lower in price. Myself, I would put the savings into a hood for the monitor (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1302827-REG/eizo_ch2700_bk_lcd_shading_hood_for.html). And yes, both models are available bundled as a package with software and colorimeter—at additional cost over the monitor alone of course.

I mention this because some automatically assume that Eizo models aren't competitively priced due to the more expensive CG series. The CS2731, in my opinion, offers a good value considering its exceptional performance. Both are excellent monitors. As always, people should buy what makes them happy—not someone else.

No experience with M1 (with SpectraView or otherwise) but the read me you posted doesn't appear to be of any necessary concern AFAIK.

Except, perhaps, for the part that says... "and it may not work in all cases". Also, "released as a temporary workaround for compatibility issues" is not a confidence builder. The part that says "It is intended as a temporary solution until Apple fixes the issues" doesn't lead one to the conclusion that they believe that it's their issue to fix for customers and are busy working on a permanent solution.

Actually, the read me which I linked to, I personally would not find all that reassuring as a potential buyer—if I were intending to use SpectraView II software to calibrate my display with an M1 Mac, now or in the future. Fortunately, basICColor does offer an alternative solution that works.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on August 20, 2021, 08:42:18 am
Please, no FUD necessary” Except, perhaps, ”:
“and it may not work in all cases. Only display models with a USB connection are supported”
Do you have am M1 and have you are do you know anyone who can't run the display under these conditions?
And yes, one can get a PA272q for what appears as far less $$ than the unit with “free software” with software 😀 and it may not work in all cases. Only display models with a USB connection are supported
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: TechTalk on August 20, 2021, 10:17:36 am
Please, no FUD necessary” Except, perhaps, ”:
“and it may not work in all cases. Only display models with a USB connection are supported”

What FUD? Here's the entire statement for clarity, rather than chopped out portions. "Mac M1 Special build - This build of SpectraView is being released as a temporary workaround for compatibility issues occurring on the new M1 based Macs such as the MacBook and Mac mini. As of at least macOS 11.2, the OS does not provide full information about the connected display monitors to applications. This prevents SpectraView from being able to detect displays correctly. This special build avoids this issue by making certain assumptions about the displays in order to detect and communicate with them. It is intended as a temporary solution until Apple fixes the issues in a future macOS update, and it may not work in all cases. Only display models with a USB connection are supported. Older NEC display models without a USB connection will likely never be supported on M1 based Macs." Individuals can read it for themselves and decide what that means or contact NEC support for clarification.

It's all compacted into one paragraph in the read me that I linked. I read it as...

"This special build avoids this issue by making certain assumptions about the displays in order to detect and communicate with them. It is intended as a temporary solution until Apple fixes the issues in a future macOS update, and it may not work in all cases." One statement, followed by...

"Only display models with a USB connection are supported. Older NEC display models without a USB connection will likely never be supported on M1 based Macs." This I read as an additional statement regarding no forward looking or current M1 SpectraView II software compatibility for older non-USB models, which have been supported on Mac hardware until now. In other words, I read it as USB equipped displays might communicate, but non-USB will definitely not. You can string the sentences together in the way you wish and come to your own conclusions.

What they do not say is: any "models with a USB connection" will communicate with SpectraView II software and M1 Macs—or that "Older NEC display models without a USB connection" are the only cases where "it may not work" with the software. They are definitely telling me that the non-USB equipped NEC wide gamut display with SpectraView II software that I'm using right now, will not communicate with new M1 Macs—now or in the future. I'm OK with that (not happy, but OK), there are alternatives and I've had it a long time. I'm used to things becoming obsolete over time.

I linked what NEC stated in their "temporary workaround" read me file. Read it anyway you see fit, but you may keep the insult. It wouldn't matter from someone else perhaps, but I have some respect for you. Of course, you're under no obligation whatever to return it; but I won't reply in kind because of that respect.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on August 20, 2021, 10:29:11 am
The FUD=“except perhaps.”  "temporary workaround“ what's the issue?
FUD=
Quote
I personally would not find all that reassuring as a potential buyer—if I were intending to use SpectraView II software to calibrate my display with an M1 Mac, now or in the future.
Did the OP say he's got an M1? Nope.
Does NEC SpectraView will not run under M1? Not that I see.
Anyway, I've contacted the PM/software engineer directly since it appears, perhaps 😀 neither one of us have any experience with M1 and this build now or in the future.
"Predictions are hard, especially about the future."- Yogi Berra
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: TechTalk on August 20, 2021, 12:23:24 pm
The FUD=“except perhaps.”  "temporary workaround“ what's the issue?

I don't wish to appear overly sensitive, but I take offense at being accused of spreading FUD—especially, by someone I respect. I do try (but sometimes fail) to choose my words carefully. I also try to be selective in the use of bold type, as I find it too often overused.

My statement of finding the current status not "all that reassuring", which you have quoted, was related only partially to the fact that other makers of similar hardware calibration software have fully functional software now without workarounds and some of my other comments which you also quoted. Primarily, my lack of reassurance stems from the statement which I selectively chose to put in bold and which you have not yet quoted—that is NEC's statement "until Apple fixes the issues". I put that in bold and it is my primary issue with the NEC statement because... man have I been down that road before with software vendors. And, it has happened to me at times when it actually mattered, only to be told that it's Apple's problem to fix. I didn't find that very helpful or any assurance that an issue would be resolved in a convenient time frame or before the finger pointing stopped. I then had to find an alternative solution to get work accomplished.

FUD=Did the OP say he's got an M1? Nope.

No. He said "Apple and Eizo have conspired to make it impossible move to Catalina or Big Sur." This due to the fact that he's stuck at ColorNavigator 6 because Eizo hasn't made ColorNavigator 7 backward compatible to his older display. For which I expressed empathy, because it's happened to me repeatedly over the years with a variety of hardware and software. The suggestion which I made to him for his Eizo compatibility issue is exactly the same suggestion which I made for NEC owners who may be looking at SpectraView II software issues. My suggestion in both cases was: "Fortunately, basICColor does offer an alternative solution that works." It's true in both cases and is currently available as a solution to most owners of reasonably recent Eizo or NEC displays with Apple Mac compatibility issues. I also said to him: "Even if you're using the Eizo or NEC calibration software with your monitor, there may be advantages to incorporating basICColor display 6 alongside them."

I've tried to be balanced and factual regarding both brands; which is easy because, I've purchased and been quite satisfied with the value received from both brands. I made note of the lack of availability from B&H/Adorama and stated clearly; "However, NEC still shows this model in their current offerings." I pushed back on another poster's comment: "Unfortunately, according to my local supplier, NEC quits producing/selling high end graphic monitors." and I linked to the current models listed by NEC and stated they were current. I pointed out that not all Eizo monitors are as esoteric in price as the CG models and said "Both are excellent monitors. As always, people should buy what makes them happy—not someone else." Also, as I mentioned above, I suggested: "Even if you're using the Eizo or NEC calibration software with your monitor, there may be advantages to incorporating basICColor display 6 alongside them."

I'll continue to respect you for your knowledge. I'll even continue to like your acerbic wit. You're free to continue to accuse me of spreading FUD and I will continue to take offense at that. We will all continue to face challenges with products reaching End of Life status and no longer being supported as well as compatibility issues from every direction. Such is life.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on August 20, 2021, 12:37:02 pm
I apologize, I'm not trying give offense and respect your knowledge and posts too. You nearly always do select your words very carefully, but "except perhaps" isn't as refined as I've seen in the past. We both have no experience with M1 and SpectraView, at least that seems to be the case. If you do and said you did, I missed it and again apologize. If you don't, we should both hold on until we have some facts.
I'm working on getting direct feedback from the PM about the text we are both discussing. At this time, I don't see them stating the product doesn't work on M1. There are indeed caveats but you did state  "if I were intending to use SpectraView II software to calibrate my display with an M1 Mac, now or in the future" and again, boxing yourself into a future corner we know nothing about doesn't seem like your history of carefully selected language. Even Yogi pointed this out with humor.
Let's wait until we both have actual facts from either the SpectraView engineer OR at the very least, personal experience with this product (todays build) and M1. What the future holds isn't anything I'm qualified to predict.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: TechTalk on August 20, 2021, 12:56:36 pm
What the future holds isn't anything I'm qualified to predict.

Agreed. I hope that I made my intentions clear in being grateful for third parties like basICColor and others that offer solutions for compatibility and EOL (End of Life) issues that stem from other manufacturers products and sometimes offering other potential features and benefits. Many a scanner owner has found a new lease on life for their scanner from companies like VueScan or SilverFast. I'm one of them.

No harm done. Like I said, I like your acerbic wit—almost all of the time.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Alan Klein on August 20, 2021, 03:36:17 pm
B&H lists the PA271Q with spectraview as available and the PA271Q without spectraview as discontinued.
I wonder if you called B&H whether they would break out the monitor price by itself?  Just tell them you have  Spectraview and want to upgrade the monitor only.  They'd be foolish to want to throw away a sale.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on August 20, 2021, 03:41:01 pm
I wonder if you called B&H whether they would break out the monitor price by itself?  Just tell them you have  Spectraview and want to upgrade the monitor only.  They'd be foolish to want to throw away a sale.
The bundle is (was) Display+Colorimeter+Software vs. just display. So unlikely.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Alan Klein on August 20, 2021, 03:45:11 pm
What if you needed two same displays?  You wouldn't need a second calibration puck and software.  In fact, wouldn't you want to use the same on both machines to assure similar calibrations even if you had two calibrations sets?
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on August 20, 2021, 03:48:07 pm
What if you needed two same displays?  You wouldn't need a second calibration puck and software.  In fact, wouldn't you want to use the same on both machines to assure similar calibrations even if you had two calibrations sets?
IF then you'd get one with and one without the bundle. But that's no longer an option right?
There are two differing SKUs.
Not even sure NEC/Sharp would allow what you propose.
Yes, you would want to use the same Colorimeter and software on both machines.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: TechTalk on August 20, 2021, 08:50:40 pm
I wonder if you called B&H whether they would break out the monitor price by itself?  Just tell them you have  Spectraview and want to upgrade the monitor only.

When I earlier posted that B&H listed the model as discontinued, I didn't go into detail, but I searched their site for the PA271Q in any configuration bundled (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1416627-REG/nec_pa271q_bk_sv_27_color_critical_desktop.html) or monitor only (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1416626-REG/nec_pa271q_bk_27_color_critical_desktop.html?fromDisList=y). They list it as discontinued either way. They currently do not offer the monitor in any configuration. The same is true (https://www.adorama.com/ncpa271qbk.html) for Adorama (https://www.adorama.com/ncpa271qbksv.html). If either had any listing whatever for the monitor which did not say discontinued or no longer available... I wouldn't have posted anything at all. I found it noteworthy only because, to the best of my knowledge, they are the two largest photo/video specialty online resellers by a good margin. Personally, I prefer to buy locally whenever possible. I bemoan the ongoing loss of stores where you can see products in person.

To be crystal clear, NEC lists both model variations as current (https://www.sharpnecdisplays.us/search?query=pa271q). I made that clear (I believe) in my original post. My position is always, a product is current until the manufacturer officially declares it discontinued. If anyone is interested, Sharp/NEC can be contacted directly (https://www.sharpnecdisplays.us/contact-sales-representative) by phone or via contact form. They may be able to direct you to an authorized reseller or assist in locating products for you. I will continue to push back, as I have in more than one thread, against rumors regarding NEC and graphics monitors being discontinued. I detest rumors. [Gossip—The Devil's Radio. Don't be a broadcaster! — George Harrison]

As a side note, a little over a week ago, I suggested to someone looking for a wide-gamut monitor, to replace an old Dell, that they might consider a direct purchase from NEC of a refurbished PA series model (https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=138835.msg1221992#msg1221992). My last two NEC wide-gamut monitors were purchased direct from NEC as refurbished and I was quite happy with them—and delighted at the price. Unfortunately, the models that I suggested then are no longer currently listed in the refurbished section. I've purchased refurbished equipment directly from NEC, Apple, and Epson and enjoyed the savings along with a full new warranty in each instance.

I also have no hesitation in buying discontinued product. The last MacBook Pro I purchased new, at a healthy discount from Adorama, just after it was replaced by a new model. Best value I ever had in a Mac purchase. The new replacement offered little in the way of enhancement. I'm not cheap, but I do enjoy getting a good value for my money when I find what I want at a reduced price.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Czornyj on August 22, 2021, 09:25:06 am
The FUD=“except perhaps.”  "temporary workaround“ what's the issue?
FUD=Did the OP say he's got an M1? Nope.
Does NEC SpectraView will not run under M1? Not that I see.
Anyway, I've contacted the PM/software engineer directly since it appears, perhaps 😀 neither one of us have any experience with M1 and this build now or in the future.
"Predictions are hard, especially about the future."- Yogi Berra

NEC SpectraView II works flawlessly on my Mac mini M1.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Frans Waterlander on August 22, 2021, 12:03:17 pm
I apologize

 :o :o :o
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on August 22, 2021, 12:06:55 pm
:o :o :o
Thanks for again confirming your inability to understand simple English.
So well stated here about your posts trolling:
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=136697.msg1222178#msg1222178
You've got to love the behaviour of someone who about once a month walks into the room, takes a dump on the carpet and departs, never to be seen again until next month.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Frans Waterlander on August 22, 2021, 11:04:50 pm
Thanks
You're welcome!
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on August 22, 2021, 11:20:50 pm
You're welcome!
Since you came in to post utterly off topic, again, I must ask to steer your poor focus: How's the monitor flicker “problem” that limits your ability to take a photo coming along?
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: TechTalk on August 22, 2021, 11:43:05 pm
:o :o :o

As you have no desire to contribute to the topic Frans, your time would be better spent if you just jerked yourself a soda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_jerk#/media/File:Soda_jerk_NYWTS.jpg) while adults are having a discussion.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Frans Waterlander on August 22, 2021, 11:48:57 pm
Utterly off topic?
Digital Dog (or is it Digital God?) apologizes! Could it be that that's a first? I thought it significant enough to comment on it. Maybe this warrants a separate thread, as it is rather unique.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: TechTalk on August 23, 2021, 12:05:04 am
Digital Dog (or is it Digital God?) apologizes! Could it be that that's a first? I thought it significant enough to comment on it. Maybe this warrants a separate thread, as it is rather unique.

I can tell you for a fact that it is not a first and that it is how adults behave with each other. You're like a fly at a picnic in this discussion.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Frans Waterlander on August 23, 2021, 12:10:26 am
How adults behave with each other?
Couldn't agree with you more, but Andrew is repeatedly extremely rude and insulting and he hasn't apologizes to me even once for such behavior.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: TechTalk on August 23, 2021, 12:15:26 am
Couldn't agree with you more, but Andrew is repeatedly extremely rude and insulting and he hasn't apologizes to me even once for such behavior.

I've seen your previous posts and there is no reason for him to apologize to you. Now... could you please just buzz off and let us continue this topic without having to deal with your emotions.

*Edited for clarity.

** Please do not alter my quotes as you did above in changing a statement into a question. Quote me unedited or not at all.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Frans Waterlander on August 23, 2021, 12:17:48 am
I've seen your previous posts and there is no reason for him to do so.
I agree that there's no reason for his rude and insulting behavior.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on August 23, 2021, 01:51:13 am
I agree that there's no reason for his rude and insulting behavior.
Once again Frans: all doubts (http://digitaldog.net/files/AllDoubtsRemoved.jpg) removed.
Pull both feet out of mouth; attempt to begin hobby of photography.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Frans Waterlander on August 23, 2021, 11:57:30 am
Once again Frans: all doubts (http://digitaldog.net/files/AllDoubtsRemoved.jpg) removed.
Pull both feet out of mouth; attempt to begin hobby of photography.
I bought my first camera with money from my newspaper delivery job 63 years ago, as a hobby and have been at it ever since, so stop your rude remarks.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on August 23, 2021, 12:04:25 pm
I bought my first camera with money from my newspaper delivery job 63 years ago, as a hobby and have been at it ever since, so stop your rude remarks.
Have you used it? Or one since. Thats the $64K question considering you've NEVER shared a single 'photo' (snapshot?), you've taken, here or on Photonet (https://www.photo.net/2220857).
Come on Frans, show us some 'work'. What are you afraid of?
And how's the newspaper delivery job working out for you?  ;)
Is that kind of a photo of yours on the cover of your self published book of political fiction? Are the sales enough to retire from delivering newspapers?
And back to the topic, monitors, a topic you can't seem to wrap your head around and comment on, did you ever figure out how to use one without it flickering (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/flicker-eyestrain-or-headache-when-using-a-monitor-with-led-backlighting.484239/#post-5124157)? 
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Frans Waterlander on August 23, 2021, 12:10:19 pm
Have you used it? Or one since. Thats the $64K question considering you've NEVER shared a single 'photo' (snapshot?), you've taken, here or on PhotoNet.
Come on Frans, show us some 'work'. What are you afraid of?
And how's the newspaper delivery job working out for you?  ;)
Is that kind of a photo of yours on the cover of your self published book of political fiction? Are the sales enough to retire from delivering newspapers?
And back to the topic, monitors, a topic you can't seem to wrap your head around and comment on, did you ever figure out how to use one without it flickering?
You really ought to seek help.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on August 23, 2021, 12:32:48 pm
You really ought to seek help.
I bought my first camera with money from my newspaper delivery job 63 years ago, as a hobby and have been at it ever since
Still no photos. Or moving back to the topic.
Is your excuse, that so many members here and over on PhotoNet recognize: coming into a discussion and walking into the room, taking a dump on the carpet and departing due to your advanced age and the onset of Dementia (Including Alzheimer's Disease)?
No need to answer, it should be clear to nearly everyone of your readers here and lost as usual on you.  ;)
Why not move on, try making a photo. Far better use of your limited time sir.   
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Frans Waterlander on August 23, 2021, 07:26:50 pm
Still no photos. Or moving back to the topic.
Is your excuse, that so many members here and over on PhotoNet recognize: coming into a discussion and walking into the room, taking a dump on the carpet and departing due to your advanced age and the onset of Dementia (Including Alzheimer's Disease)?
No need to answer, it should be clear to nearly everyone of your readers here and lost as usual on you.  ;)
Why not move on, try making a photo. Far better use of your limited time sir.   

I wonder, have you hit rock-bottom yet?
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: digitaldog on August 23, 2021, 07:34:37 pm
I wonder, have you hit rock-bottom yet?
Still no photos.
Frans, you have highjacked a thread about a topic you apparently know nothing about; monitors for editing and print proofing. Otherwise you'd get on the topic and make some kind of contribution to the topic instead of coming in here again, walking into this room and others, taking yet another dump on the carpet and departing.

Why not start your own thread anywhere about how rude I am and how upset you are by my requests for you to stick to a topic and maybe show us, you have actually created a snapshot using a camera. You are free to make such a new post as the rest of us are free to ignore you and your pooping again on carpets in a post you don't belong.
Or, will you continue to hit rock bottom here?
Not a single person as yet has taken you seriously! It is too bad you can't reflect on that fact and move on.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: TechTalk on August 24, 2021, 05:50:25 pm
To return to the topic, I've suggested in earlier posts that an NEC or Eizo owner might want to consider the standard or pro versions of basICColor display 6 as either a substitute for NEC SpectraView II or Eizo ColorNavigator or for use alongside their proprietary calibration/profiling software. I'll detail a few of the reasons below that I have not yet mentioned. I'll start first with the standard version capabilities.

- basICColor display 6 (https://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-display-2-en-US/) (standard version - $89 (https://www.chromix.com/colorgear/shop/productdetail.cxsa?toolid=50352)) works with multiple brands and types of displays. It can be used to hardware calibrate and profile both NEC and Eizo displays. It may also be able to hardware calibrate other displays (Dell/HP/LG etc.) thru the display's DDC/CI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_Data_Channel) (Display Data Channel/Command Interface) depending on the individual model of display.  Additionally, it can be used with other displays which do not offer external control of hardware calibration to manually pre-calibrate and then profile the display, like a laptop or iMac for example.

- basICColor display 6 supports a wide range of colorimeters and spectrophotometers. It supports proprietary sensors from NEC and Eizo. It also supports the relatively new competitor to the X-Rite i1Pro spectrophotometer series from Konica Minolta, the MYIRO-1 (https://techkonusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/01_21-Myiro-1-Brochure.pdf). (the MYIRO-1 is not supported in SpectraView II or ColorNavigator) One note: Konica Minolta includes basICColor display 6 (https://www.myiro.com/en/display) with the MYIRO-1, but this bundled version only works with that instrument.

- basICColor display 6 has recently been rebuilt for 64-bit only macOS systems like Catalina/Big Sur and the latest hardware. It has been developed by Franz Herbert (http://chameleo.eu/about-me/) with a long history in engineering color management solutions.

In summary, basICColor display 6 is a reasonably priced solution which can provide hardware or software calibration/profiling for a variety of displays with a wide range of measuring devices. basICColor display 6 Pro expands on those capabilities with additional features. Whether those additional features are of value to you depends entirely on your individual requirements (and possibly other equipment used) for your work. According to the current display 6 pro datasheet (https://www.basiccolor.de/assets/Uploads/basICColor-display-6-Pro-Additional-Features.pdf) you can upgrade the standard version to the pro version for the $240 difference in their usual stand alone price.

- basICColor display 6 Pro (http://chromix.com/colorgear/shop/productdetail.cxsa?toolid=50369) includes some of the advanced features (https://www.basiccolor.de/assets/Uploads/basICColor-display-6-Pro-Additional-Features.pdf) found in Eizo ColorNavigator like sensor correlation; CMYK soft proofing evaluation for specific press standards (FOGRA/GRACOL/SWOP/etc.); ISO 14861/12646 (https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:12646:ed-3:v1:en) soft proofing display compliance measurement and evaluation; and automatic viewing booth brightness matching to display with JUST Color Communicator series viewers (https://chromix.com/ColorGear/Shop/productdetail.cxsa?toolid=50082&num=9&refcode=cmlight). (not included in SpectraView II)

- basICColor display 6 Pro can additionally calibrate brightness and color (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tWpIAPdc-Y) when using the JUST moduLight (https://www.just-normlicht.com/us/articlelist.html?id=85&name=JUST-LED-moduLight) or LacunaSolutions SmartLightningSystem (SLS) (https://lacunasolutions.com/en/produkte/) LED color proofing lights using a spectrophotometer. (not included in SpectraView II or ColorNavigator)

- basICColor display 6 Pro can measure uniformity across the display to monitor any changes over time. (not included in SpectraView II or ColorNavigator)

- basICColor display 6 Pro can measure and produce a spectral evaluation report of your viewing light or booth using a spectrophotometer. (not included in SpectraView II or ColorNavigator)

- basICColor display 6 Pro also includes manual white point editing as do SpectraView II and ColorNavigator. (not included in basICColor display 6 standard version)

What I'm NOT suggesting: I'm not suggesting that basICColor display 6 is a better choice than the NEC or Eizo software as that depends on your individual desires and requirements. I'm also not suggesting that basICColor display 6 (standard or pro version) includes every feature which may be contained in SpectraView II or ColorNavigator; though you may find other features that make it useful as an addition to their proprietary software.

What I AM suggesting: I suggest looking at all of your options. I suggest carefully looking at precisely what features are supported (or not supported) for any given display or measuring instrument in addition to operating system and hardware requirements. There are a lot of variables and not all combinations provide the same level of features or support, if supported at all. I would suggest downloading and reading the manuals for each option as website information is often abbreviated and may not contain all of the information you want or need to know. If you have specific questions on a product, I suggest contacting the manufacturer; as you can generally obtain accurate answers in a more timely fashion than posing those questions on an a web forum—plus, it will give you some impression of how effective their support might be should you need it after a purchase.

Manuals are available to download: here for NEC SpectraView II (https://www.sharpnecdisplays.us/support-and-services/spectraviewii/4#softwaredownloads/) and here for Eizo ColorNavigator 7 (https://www.eizoglobal.com/support/db/products/manual/search?k=colornavigator&x=0&y=0). For the basICColor display 6 manual, you can download the demo version of the software from Chromix here (https://www.chromix.com/colorgear/shop/productdetail.cxsa?toolid=50352). The manual is included and can be accessed without activating the software which requires a demo license. There is a single manual for both standard and pro versions.
Title: Re: New Monitor for photo editing and print proofing
Post by: Louie on August 25, 2021, 09:52:48 am
To return to the topic, I've suggested in earlier posts that an NEC or Eizo owner might want to consider the standard or pro versions of basICColor display 6 as either a substitute for NEC SpectraView II or Eizo ColorNavigator or for use alongside their proprietary calibration/profiling software. I'll detail a few of the reasons below that I have not yet mentioned.

Thanks for the detailed information about the additional features in BasicColor 6 Pro. As it currently stands I don't need either as I'm currently stuck in Mac upgrade limbo. I have a Mac Pro 2012 (tower) that only runs Mojave. So until I bite the bullet and move to a new CPU everything is working.

Everything changes when I upgrade the CPU since ColorNavigator 6 is not supported past Mojave and my CG241W is not supported by ColorNavigator 7. Arrrg! Anyway since my CG241W is working just fine I feel confident that i can use BasicColor 6.  I will have to reevaluate the Pro option when I end upgrading my hardware.

-louie