Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: dophoto on December 21, 2006, 10:19:09 pm
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I am printing with an Epson 4000 and getting an unwanted salmon color in certain areas of my color images. It is not a cast over the entire image, but distinct areas of bright color that appear to overlay a particular tonal value. That value is roughly a medium tan color (approximately R=195, G=160, B=130). This extraneous salmon color has appered recently in 3 completely different photos. Each was a Nikon RAW file (but from 2 different cameras), processed with Adobe Camera Raw. There is no sign of this color on my calibrated monitor. The intensity of the color varies somewhat with different papers, but is always present. Most images I am printing have been excellent - in color as well as b/w using Quadtone RIP. I have not been having problems with clogged nozzles.
Anyone else had this problem? Any suggestions?
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I am printing with an Epson 4000 and getting an unwanted salmon color in certain areas of my color images. It is not a cast over the entire image, but distinct areas of bright color that appear to overlay a particular tonal value. That value is roughly a medium tan color (approximately R=195, G=160, B=130). This extraneous salmon color has appered recently in 3 completely different photos. Each was a Nikon RAW file (but from 2 different cameras), processed with Adobe Camera Raw. There is no sign of this color on my calibrated monitor. The intensity of the color varies somewhat with different papers, but is always present. Most images I am printing have been excellent - in color as well as b/w using Quadtone RIP. I have not been having problems with clogged nozzles.
Anyone else had this problem? Any suggestions?
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I encountered a similar issue with an Epson 2100 on a few occasions. I've tried a few things to remove salmon colored areas but only succeeded partially.
My problem seems to be "centered" around tan or beige gradients. I've found problematics colors on some lichen covered rocks, on some animals like wolves and in some instance on portraits with blond hair. I've tried to address the issue with different custom printer profiles, different rendering intents, different document profiles, different RAW converters, different papers (along with OEM and custom profiles), etc. ... without any success. The soft-proof feature of Photoshop didn't show the problematic salmon areas. The only way to circumvent the issue was to print using Epson driver color management instead of printing with a printer profile. This solution is - in my opinion - not acceptable.
I have no valid explanation but I believe that this issue lies in the (non-) linearity of my printer. I remember having read something about that in Andrew Rodney's excellent book. Basically, you make a custom profile with Epson color management enabled. Gamut will be reduced if profiles are made this way.
I don't own a spectro to make custom profiles and since the issue is present only in a handfull of images, I didn't bother to try this solution. I now modifiy slightly my images in order to minimize the issue.
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could shed some light on this issue.
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It might help if information about the operating system and the application was included in these requests as there have been some conflicts between the MAC osx operating system and versions of photoshop that have caused this type of problem.
Ensure you are upto date with the the updates for both your operating system and application.
Peter
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It might help if information about the operating system and the application was included in these requests as there have been some conflicts between the MAC osx operating system and versions of photoshop that have caused this type of problem.
Ensure you are upto date with the the updates for both your operating system and application.
Peter
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It's on a Mac but my issue was present a long time before the conflict between Mac OS X and Photoshop and is still present.
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What version of the MAC os are you running, therewas still some problems with colorsync up to 10.4.7.
peter
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What version of the MAC os are you running, therewas still some problems with colorsync up to 10.4.7.
peter
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My issue has been present from Mac OS X 10.3.x to the latest non public dev version 10.4.x. and my main machine is running 10.4.8.
Ian Lyons has described the conflict between PS 9.0.1 and Mac OS X [a href=\"http://www.computer-darkroom.com/pwp_901/pwp_901_1.htm]here[/url]. Ian also has a work-around. BTW, while my issue has similarites, it isn't solved by Ian's work-around and it is happening with PS CS also.
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It might help if information about the operating system and the application was included in these requests as there have been some conflicts between the MAC osx operating system and versions of photoshop that have caused this type of problem.
Ensure you are upto date with the the updates for both your operating system and application.
Peter
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I am running OSX 10.4.8 and CS2 9.0.2. Thanks for any additional thoughts on the problem.
David
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I am running OSX 10.4.8 and CS2 9.0.2. Thanks for any additional thoughts on the problem.
David
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David,
Have you tried Ian Lyons' work-around? It didn't work for me but it may help (see link above).
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David,
Have you tried Ian Lyons' work-around? It didn't work for me but it may help (see link above).
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Francois,
I did try the work-around and it did eliminate the salmon color; however, it gave me a lousy overall print. Perhaps I could tweak that further, but I did some other experimenting instead.
I took my images to another Epson 4000 and successfully printed there using the same driver and settings. Then I printed from an older Mac G4 to my Epson 4000 using a freshly installed Epson driver and newly installed Photoshop. The print was great - no sign of the salmon color. So, I thoroughly uninstalled the driver and Photoshop on my G5 (from which I originally had the problem) and reinstalled them both. The resulting prints still have the problem.
I am really stumped. Any thoughts would be most welcomed and appreciated.
David
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Francois,
I did try the work-around and it did eliminate the salmon color; however, it gave me a lousy overall print. Perhaps I could tweak that further, but I did some other experimenting instead.
I took my images to another Epson 4000 and successfully printed there using the same driver and settings. Then I printed from an older Mac G4 to my Epson 4000 using a freshly installed Epson driver and newly installed Photoshop. The print was great - no sign of the salmon color. So, I thoroughly uninstalled the driver and Photoshop on my G5 (from which I originally had the problem) and reinstalled them both. The resulting prints still have the problem.
I am really stumped. Any thoughts would be most welcomed and appreciated.
David
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David,
I have no idea why it works fine on your G4 and not on your G5. I'll try to find another computer (I only have G5s here) and see the salmon colored areas are present.
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snip<<I am really stumped. Any thoughts would be most welcomed and appreciated.
David
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David,
I have a thought that you might look into on your computer. I experienced a similar problem when printing from InDesign (ID) in the same manner as one would print from PhotoShop (PS). The prints via ID exhibited problems and did not match the color and quality as those from PS, despite the same settings and same paper and profile. After two days of digging I found a "glitch" in colorsync, or at least it had manifested itself in colorsync. To keep this short, here is what you might check.
On the computer that prints the image well, pull down the "Summary" window from the Epson driver's "Print" window. It should be the last item in the pull down that begins with "Copies & Pages" Click on the triangle to the left of the item "ColorSync" and note the profile that is listed adjacent to the word "Profile".
Then, on the other computer, do the same thing. Do they match? If not, you may need to change the errant one using the ColorSync utility to be as listed for the computer where you are getting satifactory results. If they do match at this point, then obviously that is not the cause of your problem.
You and others reading this may first think like I did, why would that matter when we have checked "No Color Adjustment" in the colorsync dialog. I assure you it does, and despite the fact that NCA is checked there is, at least for me, there is some degree of interaction here at some level. In my case, the profile listed in the summary window when using PS was "Generic RGB" which was present when the profile was created. In the ID summary, however, "Epson Standard" was listed, and that indeed skewed (until changed to Generic RGB) the print results using the custom profile in the usual and normal manner.
Good Luck,
Ed
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You and others reading this may first think like I did, why would that matter when we have checked "No Color Adjustment" in the colorsync dialog. I assure you it does, and despite the fact that NCA is checked there is, at least for me, there is some degree of interaction here at some level. In my case, the profile listed in the summary window when using PS was "Generic RGB" which was present when the profile was created. In the ID summary, however, "Epson Standard" was listed, and that indeed skewed (until changed to Generic RGB) the print results using the custom profile in the usual and normal manner.
Good Luck,
Ed
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Ed,
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
This problem has been vexing me for months. I have sought and received advice from informed sources, had my settings checked by gurus, and reinstalled applications and the OS many times. Your message gave me the clues to fix it.
The solution isn't quite as you say. The key is to make sure that ColorSync is using the Generic RGB Profile.icc, not necessarily the profile that works in some applications.
You can find this profile in: /System/Library/ColorSync/Profiles/
As you said, it is totally counter-intuitive but you can drive color all over the place in some applications by making ColorSync use different profiles. Generic RGB is the only one that gives the right colors.
In my case, Photoshop has been giving banding in flesh tones. Printing from Lightroom and InDesign is fine.
When I print from Photoshop with my Epson 4800, ColorSync is set to the default Pro4800 Standard profile when I look in the print setup summary. Using the ColorSync utility to point the Pro4800 Standard profile to something else immediately changed the color. (The ColorSync utility is not intuitive, just as this problem is not intuitive. You can't change the default profile to anything other than Standard. However, you can change the Standard profile to point to another profile.) Only when I pointed the Standard profile to Generic RGB did the color come out right.
It is rather confusing and I'd be glad to walk anyone through it step by step. But it works. I have only tested it with Photoshop 10 (the CS3 beta) but I'm sure it works for other versions.
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snip << However, you can change the Standard profile to point to another profile.) Only when I pointed the Standard profile to Generic RGB did the color come out right. >> snip
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Exactly, and that is because when you install the printer driver (as with other devices too) it registers the manufacturer's standard profile as the "Factory Profile" and then selects it as the "Current Profile". While I am not aware that you can change the "Factory Profile" per se, you can select the "Current Profile" (via the ColorSync Utility) and that is where I made the change to "Generic RGB Profile".
I have not had the opportunity to delve into this further, but what is distressing to me, is that with "no color adjustment" (NAC) selected in the printer driver, there is still some interaction on the part of ColorSync. Therefore, this setting which is deep within the system, must always be the same as that used where and when the custom printer profile was made. And, the second point of distress is that since there is an obvious interaction and we are truly not able to obtain "NCA", when we are creating a profile, is the application of whatever is set for the "Current Profile", be it the Epson (or whatever) Standard, or Generic RGB, actually "choking" or reducing the gamut that we might be able to obtain, or in the very least introducing additional rounding errors, thus leading to less than smooth color transitions.
Take Care,
Ed
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It is rather confusing and I'd be glad to walk anyone through it step by step. But it works. I have only tested it with Photoshop 10 (the CS3 beta) but I'm sure it works for other versions.
Ed and Roy,
I checked the "Summary" profiles: The correctly printing G4 was using Generic RGB Profile but the G5 (problem printing) was using Pro4000 Standard.
I've opened colorSync Utility, but can't figure out how to make the change you guys have discussed. Roy, would you be willing to give me the step-by-step instructions?
Ditto the thank you, thank you, thank you! Sounds like this will get me up and running again. I really appreciate your help.
David
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I figured it out and the problem is solved!
Thank you again.
David
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Thanks a millions!
I've printed a few images with the problematic salmon areas and pointing to the Generic RGB profile has fixed the issue.
Edit: I removed a note about print presets as it was wrong. Generic RGB profile is also used in presets that were created before the Colorsync change (pointing to Generic RGB).
Thanks again!
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I dug a little deeper to understand what was going on with ColorSync and that Generic RGB profile. I retrieved my developer documents and the notes I took at an Apple Dev conference and found a few elements to explain the reasoning.
I also searched the ColorSync users list at Apple and finally found a post that seems to explain how Colorsync does its business and why the Generic RGB profile was the solution.
Steve Upton (from Chromix) writes (http://lists.apple.com/archives/Colorsync-users/2005/Feb/msg00307.html);
...My understanding of Photoshop printing today is that it does not include a profile in the print stream. As a result, ColorSync will assign the Generic RGB profile as the source which is potentially dangerous as hell but, in the Epson driver you also have the "Color Management" tab which allows you to turn color management "off". I think this actually lets ColorSync choose GenericRGB as the destination so no conversion occurs. ...
Chris Murphy (from Color Remedies and Real Wolrd Color Management) later replies (http://lists.apple.com/archives/colorsync-users/2005/Mar/msg00045.html):
... This is for OS-level color management. When you use application-level color management, the app pre-matches the data, the OS falsely embeds "Generic RGB" in the resulting print-ready PDF document; and if you select *anything* in the print driver other than ColorSync, the OS assumes "Generic RGB" as the destination profile also, NOT the profile in the ColorSync Utility (registered or manually set to something else). Ergo, in an application prematching or same as source context, ColorSync gets involved only to cancel itself out using a null transform.
If you were printing from Preview, then the source profile is Monitor RGB (since Preview converts everything to display space, or assumes it if untagged, or Generic RGB if untagged PDF), and the destination profile is either a.) Generic RGB for any driver color management setting other than ColorSync; and b.) the registered media profile in ColorSync Utility if ColorSync is selected as the color management setting in the driver. As you can see, ColorSync gets involved regardless, in this situation.
The part that doesn't work reliably is the driver itself, which usually calls for the manufacturer profile even if you set a custom profile in the ColorSync Utility>Devices panel.
...
Hope this helps to understand the arcane plumbing of ColorSync!
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<snip>
I have not had the opportunity to delve into this further, but what is distressing to me, is that with "no color adjustment" (NAC) selected in the printer driver, there is still some interaction on the part of ColorSync. Therefore, this setting which is deep within the system, must always be the same as that used where and when the custom printer profile was made. And, the second point of distress is that since there is an obvious interaction and we are truly not able to obtain "NCA", when we are creating a profile, is the application of whatever is set for the "Current Profile", be it the Epson (or whatever) Standard, or Generic RGB, actually "choking" or reducing the gamut that we might be able to obtain, or in the very least introducing additional rounding errors, thus leading to less than smooth color transitions.
</snip>
Ed,
I share your concerns about the "Generic RGB" trick. But what still puzzles me is that in Adobe Lightroom, everything is fine! If I choose one of my custom printer profiles and choose No Color Management in the print dialog, it comes fine wether the factory printer profile is selected with the ColorSync utility or not (set to Generic RGB in this case). This shows in the summary field of the print panel and on finally the prints.
So, is it a bug in Photoshop CS 2 & CS 3? What's your opinion? The Epson driver seems to do its job correctly.
My second point of concern is that this issue hasn't been made "public". I could find only a few references on the ColorSync list.
PS: I enclosed an exemple of "salmon area syndrome" for readers who don't understand the issue.
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Ed,
I share your concerns about the "Generic RGB" trick. But what still puzzles me is that in Adobe Lightroom, everything is fine! If I choose one of my custom printer profiles and choose No Color Management in the print dialog, it comes fine wether the factory printer profile is selected with the ColorSync utility or not (set to Generic RGB in this case). This shows in the summary field of the print panel and on finally the prints.
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Francois,
I also noted that Lightroom seems to be OK. Lightroom is what I was using to print while I was having problems printing from Photoshop. It seems to be unaffected by whatever ColorSync thinks.
However, now that I have Photoshop printing correctly, I can confirm what I long suspected: Photoshop and Lightroom print the same image slightly differently. Lightroom prints are slightly darker and slightly more saturated. I discovered this when I was making some calibration targets for printer profiling. Targets printed from Lightroom were slightly more saturated than targets printed directly from the Gretag MacBeth calibration program or from Photoshop. The Photoshop and GMB targets match.
Clearly Lightroom does something different, thus avoiding the errant interaction with ColorSync. However, I think that Lightroom is not printing accurately.
I've put so much time, ink and paper into this that I'm going to use Photoshop for printing as I now trust it again. I don't see much benefit in trying to figure what ails a beta version of Lightroom.
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Francois,
I also noted that Lightroom seems to be OK. Lightroom is what I was using to print while I was having problems printing from Photoshop. It seems to be unaffected by whatever ColorSync thinks.
However, now that I have Photoshop printing correctly, I can confirm what I long suspected: Photoshop and Lightroom print the same image slightly differently. Lightroom prints are slightly darker and slightly more saturated. I discovered this when I was making some calibration targets for printer profiling. Targets printed from Lightroom were slightly more saturated than targets printed directly from the Gretag MacBeth calibration program or from Photoshop. The Photoshop and GMB targets match.
Clearly Lightroom does something different, thus avoiding the errant interaction with ColorSync. However, I think that Lightroom is not printing accurately.
I've put so much time, ink and paper into this that I'm going to use Photoshop for printing as I now trust it again. I don't see much benefit in trying to figure what ails a beta version of Lightroom.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=92513\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Roy,
I just finished printing the same photos with Lightroom and Photoshop CS 3 beta and there's some differences albeit small ones, at least in the limited number of photos that I've now printed. I also noticed a slight increase in red and green saturation. I wish this issue is sorted out when both Lightroom and Photoshop will be shipping products.
Well, now, at least I can print the problematic photos without having to modifiy them.
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Ed,
I share your concerns about the "Generic RGB" trick. But what still puzzles me is that in Adobe Lightroom, everything is fine! If I choose one of my custom printer profiles and choose No Color Management in the print dialog, it comes fine wether the factory printer profile is selected with the ColorSync utility or not (set to Generic RGB in this case). This shows in the summary field of the print panel and on finally the prints.
So, is it a bug in Photoshop CS 2 & CS 3? What's your opinion? The Epson driver seems to do its job correctly.
My second point of concern is that this issue hasn't been made "public". I could find only a few references on the ColorSync list.
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Francois,
Happy New Year! Sorry for the delay in replying, but I was out of town on holidays and joyfully without an internet connection.
Time is my enemy in attempting to pinpoint the actual culprit here from a scientific basis. We have to remember that there are three players, so to speak; Apple (ColorSync), Adobe (Photoshop et al), and Epson. And, at least for me, the 3 have not played well together in all respects. I replaced my Epson 7600 with a 7800, and while using Mac OS 10.3.9, installed the driver for the 7800. Printing from Photoshop (PS) was right on. A week or two later, I installed OS 10.4 and still had no problem printing from PS. However, when I attempted to print from InDesign (ID), I had a problem selecting the printer in sheet versus roll mode. After much frustration, the only workaround I could devise was to install a second printer (7800 driver). Now, in order to switch to the correct paper mode, I have to choose the switch to the other printer in order to be able to select sheet paper. Strange, but it is not a matter of having one preset because it doesn't matter which of the two 7800 printers I choose, but I just have to manually make the switch in the ID print dialog in order to make the paper feed selection. I don't have this problem in PS, only in ID. Go figure - here is a conflict between Adobe and Epson.
With that resolved, prints between ID and PS did not match and I had the "ghosting" and "salmon" problems only when printing from ID. That is when I started to dig deeper and found that colorsync or epson had set (or reset) the current printer profile to the Epson Standard - but only when printing from ID, not from PS - again go figure.
Keeping in mind both Steve Upton's and Chris Murphy's comments (both on the colorsync list that I have participated in for nearly 8 years) and that of others here is what I am inclined to believe:
1. Adobe applications (perhaps excluding Lightroom as it is a ground up application) do not include a profile in the print stream when the adobe application does the conversion or when the conversion is accomplished manually in the application. That is, the data stream has already been converted prior to being sent to the printer driver.
2. On a Mac there is no way in reality to fully bypass colorsync, so the OS considers this untagged data as Generic RGB, and when Generic RGB is set for the current device profile there is no conversion.
3. Up to OS 10.4, printer drivers were registered properly and ColorSync would correctly set the current profile for the device as Generic RGB, however, starting with 10.4 and early versions, CS did not properly set the current profile - OR- Epson's driver installation prevented that from happening.
However, I believe that we can expect such things to happen as software upgrades keep growing and are built upon previous code and routines, which may be the reason that Lightroom does not exhibit the same printing problem as it is essentially new code.
I have not used Epson's canned profiles and bypassed Adobe's color conversion and used the color management features in the printer driver. If I had the time, I would experiment with that to see the ramifications.
So, I am not necessarily inclined to believe it is a PS bug, but a situation where Apple and Adobe have different opinions on how color management functions should be handled, coupled with how Epson believes print data should be handed off.
Over the years in order to simplify color management for the masses, the coding and interactions have become more complex, thus problems such as this seem to arise from "under the hood".
Best Regards,
Ed
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There is the Edmund Ronald workaround (which I posted at the time on the Colorsync list):
Revert to the original CS2 install (9.0)
AFAIK it has never had any printing problems, and I have never seen any major issues ith 9.0. If needed you can always download and install the latest ACR plugin.
Edmund
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There is the Edmund Ronald workaround (which I posted at the time on the Colorsync list):
Revert to the original CS2 install (9.0)
AFAIK it has never had any printing problems, and I have never seen any major issues ith 9.0. If needed you can always download and install the latest ACR plugin.
Edmund
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Edmund,
Indeed that might be a viable workaround for PS users. However, as noted in my posts, my problem was never with PS, but with InDesign, version 2 and I purchased InDesign CS2 (Version 4) and the problem persisted until I dug deeper to correct the problem at its root.
Regards,
Ed
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Urk! I apologize.
One thing that intrigues me though was that in the various places these things are discussed in the net (colorsync list mainly) printing from Indesign was given as a workaround for PS users.
Edmund
Edmund,
Indeed that might be a viable workaround for PS users. However, as noted in my posts, my problem was never with PS, but with InDesign, version 2 and I purchased InDesign CS2 (Version 4) and the problem persisted until I dug deeper to correct the problem at its root.
Regards,
Ed
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Francois,
Happy New Year! Sorry for the delay in replying, but I was out of town on holidays and joyfully without an internet connection.
<snip>Time is my enemy in attempting to pinpoint the actual culprit here from a scientific basis. We have to remember that there are three players, so to speak; Apple (ColorSync), Adobe (Photoshop et al), and Epson. And, at least for me, the 3 have not played well together in all respects. </snip>
Ed,
Thanks for you reply. Actually, I spent a few hours to test again. I talked to Andrew Rodney and finally sent a report to Adobe. I don't think that this issue is a bug in either Apple, Adobe or Epson software but as you write, the interaction between those three pieces of software is not working perfectly.
I'll keep you posted if I get some feedback from Adobe.
The interesting info is that while I have the salmon issue with Photoshop (without changing the default printer profile to "Generic RGB"), Lightroom 1.0 b4 prints correctly all the time (with or without the "Generic RGB" change in ColorSync utility).
Happy New year to you Ed!
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Edmund,
Indeed that might be a viable workaround for PS users. However, as noted in my posts, my problem was never with PS, but with InDesign, version 2 and I purchased InDesign CS2 (Version 4) and the problem persisted until I dug deeper to correct the problem at its root.
Regards,
Ed
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Edmund,
My salmon issue was/is present with Photoshop CS, CS 2 and the beta version of CS 3. I have no more Mac running Panther (10.3) to perform tests. The issue is every similar in aspect to the halo issue caused by Photoshop 9.01 and Mac OS X 10.4.7. As said above, Lightroom doesn't present the salmon issue.
Below, I enclosed screenshots of the print dialogs (summary tab). One can clearly see that profiles are different. Only Lightroom seems to enclose the profile I chose when I printed. With Photoshop, the profile is the one selected in the system (can be changed using the ColorSync utility).
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Ed. Your fix seems to have worked for me as well on my 3800. I'd be curious if reverting back to the original profile selected causes the issue to reappear as I did this and now can't duplicate the issue (weird).
Also, despite the fact we have set everything for No Color Management, its clear that ColorSync IS doing stuff to the data and in fact, I got emails from Adobe indicating this (even using Let Printer Manage color). There's some mysterious interaction that only Apple and Adobe engineers seem to understand (partially <g>). What is odd was that when I printed out of Lightroom or InDesign, no issues. Only Photoshop caused this aliasing.
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Andrew,
As the problem affected your output from PS, did you make a profile for the 3800 before or after you discovered (and corrected for) the aliasing problem? Or, did you test it with a factory profile?
Ed
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Andrew,
As the problem affected your output from PS, did you make a profile for the 3800 before or after you discovered (and corrected for) the aliasing problem? Or, did you test it with a factory profile?
Ed
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I used both an existing profile and a custom profile, no difference.
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...What is odd was that when I printed out of Lightroom or InDesign, no issues. Only Photoshop caused this aliasing....
Andrew,
You can easily see that Lightroom (and other Adobe applications) tags the printed file with the correct printer profile. Photoshop, on the other hand, tags with the Standard Device profile. See the screenshots I posted above. The one on the right is the Lightroom summary dialog.
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Today I setup a new 4800 printer. Printed targets for profiles and saw odd red issues we've discussed. I got an email from Epson that this is a bug in OS X and the fix is to ensure that in Printer Utility, the printer you're using with no color management is default (in bold within the list). Printed out the target again with identical settings. No banding.
In short:
There is a standing bug within OS X that forces the printer driver ICC profile into a "Default" ICC whenever you turn OFF color management within the printer driver.
The fix is to ensure the printer driver is the DEFAULTED driver with the Printer Setup Utility. It should be BOLD in the window.
Then OS X does not replace the driver ICC with a default one if you turn OFF color management within our driver.
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There's that other posted fix (see copy and paste below). It does fix the issue but introduces a potentially bigger issue. There's a difference in what comes out of the device depending on if you pick Generic RGB or any other RGB space here. I tried Generic and ProPhoto and there's a major difference in output. So what makes Generic RGB right?
With the other fix, you're using the Default profile (Factory profile) which is associated with an Epson profile in this case. But you have to keep each printer set to Default in Print Utility and I have 3 different ink jets to juggle.
- run the colorsync utility
- select devices
- find the list of profiles for the printer you are having problems with
- the default profile will have a blue dot beside it.
- click on the name of default profile
- you will now see "factory profile" and "current profile" listed for the default
- change "current profile" to point to /System/Library/ColorSync/Profiles/Generic RGB Profile.icc
It's this last step that seems iffy (it works but what is the right profile?).
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I tried Generic and ProPhoto and there's a major difference in output. So what makes Generic RGB right?
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Andrew,
Exactly - remember at the advent of OSX, simply you cannot bypass colorsync. I recall you and Chris Murphy had a tirade of exchanges with John of Apple on this and Generic RGB. So, in order for the data stream to "bypass" a conversion at the system level, it had to be "tagged" with the same profile, thus creating no conversion. Adobe would need to confirm this, but perhaps that was how their print module was able to properly "play" with the OS and printer driver at that time when the conversion was handled at the application level.
With all due to respect to Epson's response, I noticed also (as Francois noted aboe) that when printing from Lightroom, the profile in the dialog "Summary" is the same as that selected in LR's print module. The results print the same this way, as they do from PS, with the Generic RGB profile. Again, fortifying that no conversion occurs when the data stream is tagged with a matching profile as is passes through the system. So, Generic RGB is only correct when the print stream is identified as such, otherwise, in the case of the LR print module, Generic RGB would be incorrect and a transform would occur, NCA selected or not.
Now, the question is: how is it that when printing from LR, the driver recognizes or is somehow triggered to match the correct profile applied at the application level? Then, when switching back, and printing from PS, it recognizes Generic RGB.
It's this last step that seems iffy (it works but what is the right profile?).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103303\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The right profile at this point is the one that matches in identity to the print stream, thus causing no further conversion at the system level.
As for juggling 3 printers at the moment, I guess its kinda like color management. There really is no completely automated, push one button solution. Some level of human interaction, education, and thinking are still needed. And that really is a good thing, otherwise no one (individuals and manufacturers) would need the expertise that people like yourself bring to the table.
Best Regards,
Ed
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The right profile at this point is the one that matches in identity to the print stream, thus causing no further conversion at the system level.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Still confused (and I piggned Karl Lang about this and he too is confused). Anyway, there appears to be two fixes and one requires alteration of the profile that Epson selects as the Factory Profile (in this case 4800 Standard). The other fix involves leaving that alone and simply ensuring that the current printer is set to default. Both are real odd fixes <g>! I'm more inclined to leave the Factory profile alone and do the default switch after seeing how setting Generic RGB and ProPhoto RGB alter the final output.
I wonder if everyone on a Mac with more than one printer is setting this issue with reds when the current printer isn't selected as Default in Printer Utility.
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<snip>
With all due to respect to Epson's response, I noticed also (as Francois noted aboe) that when printing from Lightroom, the profile in the dialog "Summary" is the same as that selected in LR's print module. The results print the same this way, as they do from PS, with the Generic RGB profile. Again, fortifying that no conversion occurs when the data stream is tagged with a matching profile as is passes through the system. So, Generic RGB is only correct when the print stream is identified as such, otherwise, in the case of the LR print module, Generic RGB would be incorrect and a transform would occur, NCA selected or not.
Now, the question is: how is it that when printing from LR, the driver recognizes or is somehow triggered to match the correct profile applied at the application level? Then, when switching back, and printing from PS, it recognizes Generic RGB.
The right profile at this point is the one that matches in identity to the print stream, thus causing no further conversion at the system level.
</snip>
Ed and Andrew,
Is Lightroom the only Adobe application that tags the output with the correct printer profile?
After re-reading my developer notes, I can confirm that ColorSync cannot be bypassed - at least by standard printer drivers. The developers in charge of printing on the Photoshop team should ask their colleagues from the Lightroom team how they handle printing.
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Ed and Andrew,
Is Lightroom the only Adobe application that tags the output with the correct printer profile?
After re-reading my developer notes, I can confirm that ColorSync cannot be bypassed - at least by standard printer drivers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My understanding is using Let Printer Color manage is the mechanism whereby if the stars align just right, a source (output) is provided but what the driver does at this point is up to debate based on the driver itself. The last time I used LR and tried 'Let Printer' do the job with an Epson and using the Advanded B&W, it worked fine. But I want to test this again using a newer 4800.
There are a lot of LR users complaining about poor color prints but I haven't seen that yet. It matches Photoshop.
I agree that ColorSync cannot be bypassed which in itself is very interesting....
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<snip>There are a lot of LR users complaining about poor color prints but I haven't seen that yet. It matches Photoshop.
</snip>[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, this matches my experience too (printing with Epson printers only, but I'll try a on large format HP next week).
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On another machine, I tried the trick of associating the Generic RGB profile in the Colorsync utility, made a print (no banding), then reapplied the original Epson Standard profile and kept the 4800 from being the Default printer. No banding. Anyone else?
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On another machine, I tried the trick of associating the Generic RGB profile in the Colorsync utility, made a print (no banding), then reapplied the original Epson Standard profile and kept the 4800 from being the Default printer. No banding. Anyone else?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103543\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, my Epson printer is not the default printer and is affected by salmon issue if the Epson Default profile is set. I've gone through many "cycles" of Generic RGB and Epson Default profile and always had banding when Epson Default was selected with the CS utility. Did I understand the "default printer" correctly?
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Actually, my Epson printer is not the default printer and is affected by salmon issue if the Epson Default profile is set. I've gone through many "cycles" of Generic RGB and Epson Default profile and always had banding when Epson Default was selected with the CS utility. Did I understand the "default printer" correctly?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103565\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It either needs to be the default printer to remove the banding OR you need to associate a different profile (not Epson Standard) in the ColorSync utility.
My question is, if you do this from the utility and go back to the Epson Standard, does the banding disappear even if you are not using Default Printer?
The Default bit is going into Print Utility and ensuring the printer you are using is bold (set to default). But I'm trying to determine if you do the switch-a-row with the profiles, you can print without being the default printer (and get no banding).
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It either needs to be the default printer to remove the banding OR you need to associate a different profile (not Epson Standard) in the ColorSync utility.
My question is, if you do this from the utility and go back to the Epson Standard, does the banding disappear even if you are not using Default Printer?
The Default bit is going into Print Utility and ensuring the printer you are using is bold (set to default). But I'm trying to determine if you do the switch-a-row with the profiles, you can print without being the default printer (and get no banding).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103569\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'll try that tomorrow morning and report.
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It's interesting, I was having the "greencast" problem while testing an iSis, printing on a Macbook Pro 10.4.9 Intel, drove me crazy, and traced it to the printer drivers, and it suddenly went away after I reset the printing system and set up the (lonely) Epson as default ? Maybe this should be a precautionary measure:
1. Reset printing system
2. Reinstall drivers
3 Set your printer as default, even if you have just one.
What one does with several printers I prefer not to know. Luckily I own several computers.
Edmund
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On another machine, I tried the trick of associating the Generic RGB profile in the Colorsync utility, made a print (no banding), then reapplied the original Epson Standard profile and kept the 4800 from being the Default printer. No banding. Anyone else?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103543\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What would be the reason to make the Epson Standard the default again?
I never print using the printer driver to handle colour. Since discovering the Generic RGB as default fix, I have left it that way and never had another problem. No worry that way about what is selected as default.
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What would be the reason to make the Epson Standard the default again?
I never print using the printer driver to handle colour. Since discovering the Generic RGB as default fix, I have left it that way and never had another problem. No worry that way about what is selected as default.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103583\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The reason is, that profile plays some kind of role in the data stream. I substituted it with another profile and the color was different. So I'd prefer to have the factory spec settings but not have to necessarily deal with this Default Printer being set in Print Utility.
And it doesn't matter how you setup the application or driver, the profile found here is affecting the data which is in itself odd and something I wish Apple would clarify.
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On another machine, I tried the trick of associating the Generic RGB profile in the Colorsync utility, made a print (no banding), then reapplied the original Epson Standard profile and kept the 4800 from being the Default printer. No banding. Anyone else?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103543\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Andrew,
OK, I tried this and got the same results. I also set another printer as the default, and reset the default profile in the CS Utility for the 7800 to "Factory Profile". When printing from CS, I selected the 7800 printer in lieu of the default, and noted in the Summary Pane, the colorsync profile was listed not as set in the CS Utility (factory profile), but to Generic. The resulting print was without problems.
This seems in line with your comments in early February regarding a 3800 - that after you changed to Generic RGB in the CS Utility, there was no banding and that you could not replicate the banding. It is also consistent with your comments above on the 4800.
These experiences seem to be at odds with Epson's comments about NCA and the default printer.
For me, the problem first appeared after the installation of the driver for the 7800. It seems that way for you too with the 3800 in early February and the recent 4800 - is that correct?
Once I reset the profile in the CS Utility to "Other" - Generic RGB - the first time, the driver continues to work normally (in NCA mode - default or not) and switches (as noted in the driver summary pane) to a profile that matches the tagging of the print stream (thus causing no CS conversion). In LR it is the selected custom printer profile, in InDesign and PhotoShop it is Generic.
Ed
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For me, the problem first appeared after the installation of the driver for the 7800. It seems that way for you too with the 3800 in early February and the recent 4800 - is that correct?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103643\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think so but there's some hesitation (and a lot of wasted ink and paper) as I'm just not sure what causes this mess and if there's a long term fix (other than doing the default trick which does appear to work).
I called my bud Mac Holbert at Nash Editions. He's having the same problems and noticed them months back. He's be using the Default trick (in Printer Utility) and says the problems are gone.
As to the old switch-a-row with the profiles in ColorSync, I'd like to test this on a few other Macs and also see if the connection (USB versus Network) has any role (I don't think so).
And as you point out, installing a new Epson driver could be an issue. The 4800 is new on this one Mac and since I'm waiting on a network card, its USB. The other Mac's are clean (didn't get install the Epson drivers). Then there's the fact that one machine is an Intel and the other PPC (I don't think that's a factor).
Now here's another test. Substitute the 3800 Standard profile in ColorSync with the 4800 (or vise versa).
I'm almost ready to just use the Default Printer Utility trick because all the variations here add up to a lot of wasted ink and paper! And you never know, Leopard may ship and the entire issue may go away (or get worse).
Bottom line is, if we know users have more than one printer and are using an Epson (some, all?) on a Mac, they should be aware of the Printer Default trick or they may end up with issues on some images with subtle reds of certain hues. And making or using custom profiles? Ouch.
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Although this may be a different issue, my Epson 2400 went into greencast somewhere in the middle of the iSis test. It may have been when I switched to "generic rgb profile" with the colorsync utility or later, I don't know because at that point I was trying to trace an issue which was in fact related to transport damage to the spectro itself.
The cast is very slight it is only immediately apparent in the neutrals except I guess if you have exceptional vision. Reinitialization of the print system and setting the device as default fixed the cast.
I have repeatedly had "green casts" appear on my own printers over the years. I supect it's some flaw in the print logic. The problem is one doesn't immediately notice it, so a bunch of prints are "not so good" .
Edmund
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It's interesting, I was having the "greencast" problem while testing an iSis, printing on a Macbook Pro 10.4.9 Intel, drove me crazy, and traced it to the printer drivers, and it suddenly went away after I reset the printing system and set up the (lonely) Epson as default ? Maybe this should be a precautionary measure:
1. Reset printing system
2. Reinstall drivers
3 Set your printer as default, even if you have just one.
What one does with several printers I prefer not to know. Luckily I own several computers.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103581\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Edmund,
Your suggestions are the first steps when trying to solve weird color issues but we've already done that without any success. I tried with different Macs and all with freshly installed systems. The issue is not as visible as a green cast, it only hapens on some red/salmon gradients. Andrew's test photo (skin tones and the adobe wall) available on his website is excellent to spot this issue. I haven't seen the issue with HP printers - yet -. There's some stange interaction between the Epson drivers, ColorSync and perhaps Adobe applications with the exception of Lightroom.
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This isn't a clog issue and no green casts have been seen from day one on any of these printers.
If you try the Printer Test file mentioned or, even easier to see and then measure, the Bill Atkinson 1728 patch target (i0), page one. You can see a number of red patches go off. In fact, I measured the full target using the fix and prior. The one red patch in the upper middle quadrant is off a deltaE 2000 of 9! Other patches of dissimilar colors are less than 1.
There's a very, very small range of red hues that get affected. I suspect there are lots of users who have this issue and don't even know it.
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I think so but there's some hesitation (and a lot of wasted ink and paper) as I'm just not sure what causes this mess and if there's a long term fix (other than doing the default trick which does appear to work).
I called my bud Mac Holbert at Nash Editions. He's having the same problems and noticed them months back. He's be using the Default trick (in Printer Utility) and says the problems are gone.
As to the old switch-a-row with the profiles in ColorSync, I'd like to test this on a few other Macs and also see if the connection (USB versus Network) has any role (I don't think so).
And as you point out, installing a new Epson driver could be an issue. The 4800 is new on this one Mac and since I'm waiting on a network card, its USB. The other Mac's are clean (didn't get install the Epson drivers). Then there's the fact that one machine is an Intel and the other PPC (I don't think that's a factor).
Now here's another test. Substitute the 3800 Standard profile in ColorSync with the 4800 (or vise versa).
I'm almost ready to just use the Default Printer Utility trick because all the variations here add up to a lot of wasted ink and paper! And you never know, Leopard may ship and the entire issue may go away (or get worse).
Bottom line is, if we know users have more than one printer and are using an Epson (some, all?) on a Mac, they should be aware of the Printer Default trick or they may end up with issues on some images with subtle reds of certain hues. And making or using custom profiles? Ouch.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103747\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Andrew,
I performed the tests and my conclusion is that I need to use either the Default Printer trick or the Generic RGB trick. I've tried all the possible scenarios with the CS Utility application/Printer Default setting switching.
I can get rid of the banding only when my Epson printer is set as default or if I use the CS utility to set my Epson printer to Generic RGB. As soon as I change the system default printer to some other printer, I get banding immediately.
For me, I'll use the Default Printer trick. It seems less "exotic" than changing default printer profiles...
PS: I haven't bothered to try with the developer preview of Leopard... I'll wait until the final version is out and I'll probably waste more ink/paper.
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Andrew,
I performed the tests and my conclusion is that I need to use either the Default Printer trick or the Generic RGB trick. I've tried all the possible scenarios with the CS Utility application/Printer Default setting switching.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103755\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sounds like a plan. I think what I'll do next is try the Generic RGB trick, output some targets and compare them to the Epson Standard profile. If the data is essentially the same (or if the gamut of the resulting profile looks bigger/smoother) then maybe the Generic RGB is the way to go.
I'm also trying to get info from Epson about what this Standard profile is all about.
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Sounds like a plan. I think what I'll do next is try the Generic RGB trick, output some targets and compare them to the Epson Standard profile. If the data is essentially the same (or if the gamut of the resulting profile looks bigger/smoother) then maybe the Generic RGB is the way to go.
I'm also trying to get info from Epson about what this Standard profile is all about.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103758\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
From the prints I made earlier this year I noticed that the reds on you test photos (lady sweater) might be more intense. It's not a large difference and only visible when I compare the two prints side-by-side.
Let me know if you see a difference, I'm curious.
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As to the old switch-a-row with the profiles in ColorSync, I'd like to test this on a few other Macs and also see if the connection (USB versus Network) has any role (I don't think so).
And as you point out, installing a new Epson driver could be an issue. The 4800 is new on this one Mac and since I'm waiting on a network card, its USB. The other Mac's are clean (didn't get install the Epson drivers). Then there's the fact that one machine is an Intel and the other PPC (I don't think that's a factor).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103747\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have had the problem with a network-connected 4800 using the current Epson drivers on both a PPC Mac and an Intel Mac. The switch to Generic RGB solved the issue on both machines.
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Good news. It appears that using Generic RGB produces the same output as whatever Epson Standard is. The deltaE 2000 report comparing Generic RGB versus Epson standard shows an average of 0.32 which could account for the instrument or differences in dry down (I didn't let the target just output using Generic RGB dry overnight).
Now I have to hammer on Epson to find out what's the difference here (and why).
Another interesting item. You can go into the Package that contains all the Epson profiles and pull em out so you can have access to them. First of all, the Epson 3800 Standard profile and the Epson 4800 Standard profile appear identical! They plot identically in ColorThink. Then I plotted Generic RGB and its almost a prefect match up too (off a tiny amount).
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Andrew, where is this Printer Test file you mentioned ?
Edmund
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Andrew, where is this Printer Test file you mentioned ?
Edmund
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=103850\")
[a href=\"http://www.digitaldog.net/tips/]http://www.digitaldog.net/tips/[/url]
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http://www.digitaldog.net/tips/ (http://www.digitaldog.net/tips/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103853\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Andrew,
Thank you very much !
Edmund
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Good news. It appears that using Generic RGB produces the same output as whatever Epson Standard is. The deltaE 2000 report comparing Generic RGB versus Epson standard shows an average of 0.32 which could account for the instrument or differences in dry down (I didn't let the target just output using Generic RGB dry overnight).
Now I have to hammer on Epson to find out what's the difference here (and why).
Another interesting item. You can go into the Package that contains all the Epson profiles and pull em out so you can have access to them. First of all, the Epson 3800 Standard profile and the Epson 4800 Standard profile appear identical! They plot identically in ColorThink. Then I plotted Generic RGB and its almost a prefect match up too (off a tiny amount).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103782\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yesterday evening I reprinted your test file with both methods and I also got similar results. I cannot tell any difference by the eyes.
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Good news. It appears that using Generic RGB produces the same output as whatever Epson Standard is. The deltaE 2000 report comparing Generic RGB versus Epson standard shows an average of 0.32 which could account for the instrument or differences in dry down (I didn't let the target just output using Generic RGB dry overnight).
Now I have to hammer on Epson to find out what's the difference here (and why).
Another interesting item. You can go into the Package that contains all the Epson profiles and pull em out so you can have access to them. First of all, the Epson 3800 Standard profile and the Epson 4800 Standard profile appear identical! They plot identically in ColorThink. Then I plotted Generic RGB and its almost a prefect match up too (off a tiny amount).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103782\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If that is true, it is difficult to understand why substituting Generic RGB for the standard profile would make any difference.
However, they don't seem to be the same. The LAB plots of Generic RGB and Epson 4800 Standard displayed in the ColorSync utility show visible differences. Generic RGB is a matrix-based display profile. Epson Standard is a table-based output profile. They use different white points.
The only way to make ColorSync leave color values alone when printing is to make Generic RGB the source and destination profile (see pages 312-314 of Real World Color Management). If Epson Standard is different from Generic RGB (which it is), ColorSync will change the numbers. That agrees with what we see when we try to print with No Color Management and ColorSync puts the Standard profile in the chain.
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If that is true, it is difficult to understand why substituting Generic RGB for the standard profile would make any difference.
I agree. Right now, I'm not comfortable substituting Generic RGB when the default setting in the Print Utility, although a drag, seems to fix the issue.
However, they don't seem to be the same. The LAB plots of Generic RGB and Epson 4800 Standard displayed in the ColorSync utility show visible differences. Generic RGB is a matrix-based display profile. Epson Standard is a table-based output profile. They use different white points.
The 3800 and 4800 Standard appear to be identical. The Generic RGB isn't but gamut wise, it's not far off. I didn't say they were identical and to be honest,I only plotted the gamuts in ColorThink, I didn't look at the tags.
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An update to the issue of the red (samon) colors when using OS X and your printer (Epson?) isn't the default. This bug was fixed in 10.4.9! I think we can put this pup to bed now. Update your OS, then this weird issue is no more.
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An update to the issue of the red (samon) colors when using OS X and your printer (Epson?) isn't the default. This bug was fixed in 10.4.9! I think we can put this pup to bed now. Update your OS, then this weird issue is no more.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107023\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Andrew,
Thanks for the update. Let's hope that the fix will be propagated into Leopard.
Have a nice day.
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I spoke too fast!
I just tried on a G5 tower and nothing has changed. If my Epson printer is set as default then it prints OK but salmon issue is still present if it is not the default printer.
Andrew, did you test on an Intel Mac? If it's the case, then the Epson drivers might have been updated for Intel computers only. I won't investigate much further as my available time is running low this week... But next week, I'll redo the test with a MacBook Pro.
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I spoke too fast!
I just tried on a G5 tower and nothing has changed. If my Epson printer is set as default then it prints OK but salmon issue is still present if it is not the default printer.
Andrew, did you test on an Intel Mac? If it's the case, then the Epson drivers might have been updated for Intel computers only. I won't investigate much further as my available time is running low this week... But next week, I'll redo the test with a MacBook Pro.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107036\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, an Intel. And Mac Holbert called last night to confirm he too doesn't see the issue any longer.
I'll try next on a PPC Powerbook that was updated.
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FYI, I'm printing out of CS3.
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FYI, I'm printing out of CS3.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107038\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Me too.
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From what I see, Epson drivers were untouched by the 10.4.9 update (PPC or Intel). But ColorSync Utility and ColorSync framework are updated on both PPC and Intel versions. I'll redo my tests tomorrow...
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What's rather interesting in 10.4.9 is that as you pick the printer you wish to use, it becomes highlighted as the default printer in the Print Utility! I don't recall seeing that in 10.4.8.
The other thing I'm seeing and need to test more is a rather large delteE (6) between targets I measured in 10.4.8 and 10.4.9. It may be other issues but if anyone here has the ability to print with both OS's the same files, I wonder if there's a visible difference.
As for PPC versus Intel, I printed out targets on the PPC and indeed the color patches are still messed up. Ugh!
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What's rather interesting in 10.4.9 is that as you pick the printer you wish to use, it becomes highlighted as the default printer in the Print Utility! I don't recall seeing that in 10.4.8.
....[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Andrew,
I believe it's because you selected "Last Printer Used" as the default printer in the Print & Fax control panel. Since that printer becomes the default printer, salmon issue is fixed.
Have you tried to manually select another printer as default printer and print your test file on your Epson printer (making sure that the Print & fax setting is NOT Last Printer Used)?
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Andrew,
I believe it's because you selected "Last Printer Used" as the default printer in the Print & Fax control panel. Since that printer becomes the default printer, salmon issue is fixed.
Have you tried to manually select another printer as default printer and print your test file on your Epson printer (making sure that the Print & fax setting is NOT Last Printer Used)?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107472\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I didn't mess at all within the Print & Fax control panel.
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I didn't mess at all within the Print & Fax control panel.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, it might be the default setting (Last Printer Used) for new Macs. It would explain the behaviour you've described above and explain why the salmon issue is fixed on your system.
If I choose this setting, I have no salmon issue on my G5. Once the print panel is brought up and my Epson printer selected, it becomes the default printer and consequently there's no salmon issue.