Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: LesPalenik on December 21, 2020, 08:51:01 am
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This is how Alexei Navalny found out the FSB agents who poisoned him. He called FSB agents and pretended to be the assistant to a Putin adviser - and learned how exactly he was supposed to be killed.
On Monday morning last week, Alexei Navalny did something unusual for an attempted murder victim. He called his suspected assassins.
It was a few hours before SPIEGEL, after conducting joint research with the investigative platforms Bellingcat and The Insider, as well as the US news broadcaster CNN, revealed that it was apparently a team of at least eight agents from the Russian domestic intelligence service FSB who attacked the opposition politician with the nerve agent in August Poisoned Novichok. Navalny had learned the results of the research prior to publication. He decided without further ado to confront the suspects personally. The following descriptions are based on a recording of the events.
First he dialed the number of Michail Schwez, 43, one of the eight FSB agents who are said to have been involved in the poison attack. Navalny pretended to be an advisor to Nikolai Patrushev, the head of the Russian Security Council. But Schwez recognized Navalny's voice and quickly hung up again.
https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/alexej-nawalny-legte-seinen-attentaeter-herein-und-brachte-ihn-zum-reden-a-5f55fac2-0180-4dc7-86c0-deb97afe3088
Phone and travel records suggest members of a Russian intelligence team specializing in toxins and nerve agents followed Alexey Navalny to at least 17 cities since 2017. Navalny, an outspoken critic and opponent of Russian President Vladimir Putin, was poisoned with a deadly nerve agent in August.
In recent years the online investigative outfit Bellingcat has identified the Russian military intelligence agents sent to England to poison former double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter, and a Russian agent accused of murdering a Chechen activist in Berlin. Bellingcat helped uncover the pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine responsible for shooting down the MH-17 airliner in 2014.
By examining thousands of phone records along with flight manifests and other documents obtained by Bellingcat, this joint months-long investigation has identified the agents involved, as well as their backgrounds, communications and travel. The investigation also involved German magazine Der Spiegel and Russian online publication The Insider.
Flight manifests obtained by the investigation show at least three members of the FSB unit flew to Kaliningrad at the same time. Security cameras at the hotel were turned off for the duration of their stay, a source has told Bellingcat.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/14/europe/russia-navalny-agents-bellingcat-ward/index.html
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Why are you posting this?
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Why are you posting this?
I found it interesting and thought, others might, too.
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I found it interesting and thought, others might, too.
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IMO it is political?
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It's more an assassin story.
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Reuters published now their version of the story.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-politics-navalny/kremlin-foe-navalny-says-he-pranked-secret-agent-learns-of-underwear-murder-plot-idUSKBN28V24T?il=0
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Please descend into the muck of the Bear Pit with this.
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Please descend into the muck of the Bear Pit with this.
It's a compelling, current story with zero muck visible.
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Please descend into the muck of the Bear Pit with this.
Mein lieber Frans!
What else has upset you this morning? Taking a few deep breaths, stroking a cat, or going for a walk might help.
But fransly, why the "muck" reference? Are you attributing it to Alexei Navalny's mission, cruelty of the assassins, or audacity of press reporting on such matters?
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Well, we're given the mainstream narrative, but what's the real story?
I don't know. But the central character is a racist convicted criminal (fraud, embezzlement) who has never managed more than 2% of the vote, so it's probably a story about his vanity.
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Mein lieber Frans!
Ouch, that hurts! I was born in the Netherlands during WWII and emigrated to the U.S. in my thirties.
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Mein lieber Frans!
What else has upset you this morning? Taking a few deep breaths, stroking a cat, or going for a walk might help.
But fransly, why the "muck" reference? Are you attributing it to Alexei Navalny's mission, cruelty of the assassins, or audacity of press reporting on such matters?
Totally agree. It's very interesting.
Kent in SD
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Well, we're given the mainstream narrative, but what's the real story?
I don't know. But the central character is a racist convicted criminal (fraud, embezzlement) who has never managed more than 2% of the vote, so it's probably a story about his vanity.
Yes, mainstream sources such as the BBC and the majority of US news outlets. Never heard the
racist charge; perhaps you could elucidate. The mainstream narrative is that the charges and
convictions were trumped up and scripted, though that something of that nature could happen
in Putin's Russia is, I know, hard to believe.
However, Nevalny did tape record a 45 min. conversation and post it on social media. Some
red faces in the FSB I expect. I don't know about the 2% vote, but I suspect his influence is
much more widespread, else why the harrassment and attempted poisoning.
If you have other sources, please let us know.
Regards,
Dale
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Apologies to all in advance if this borders on the political.
A good search engine and a sceptical eye are handy.
To be fair to Navalny, his unfortunate comments about Georgia in 2008 and the Caucasus in 2011 doesn't mean that he is a racist in 2020. Even ultra nationalist bigots can change their mind.
What did the Kremlin make of a Yale trained colour revolution specialist starting activities in Russia? They must have wept for joy when they realised he was, how should I put it, not the brightest light on the Christmas tree. The failure of his recent demonstrations in Khabarovsk and Minsk are prime examples.
They are probably terrified that he won't return to Russia and carry on his activities, lest someone competent take his place.
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Addendum
Alexei Navalny fell sick on a flight to Moscow and his plane was diverted to Omsk where he was treated successfully. Western media claimed he was poisoned. Being on bail he had to ask for, but received, permission to travel to Germany where he was examined in a civilian hospital. They found nothing. He was then transferred to a military hospital where the findings could not be challenged and it was claimed he had been poisoned by a battlefield binary organophosphate nerve agent. That may be true, but it could also be claimed that he was a diabetic taking anti-depressants and diet pills and got into some cheap booze en route.
As to the Spiegel article. What if we try the narrative in another country? Suppose a political agitator in the US out on bail claims the CIA attempted to poison him with one of the most powerful nerve agents known to the military. He moves to Cuba where he says he got on to the telephone to the CIA pretending to be an advisor to the current president, and got their senior agents to spill the beans. Again, that may be true but you may understand if some people are just a tad sceptical.
I see Navalny as neither a hero nor a villain. I wish him well in his small corner of the world.
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Well, we're given the mainstream narrative, but what's the real story?
The real story is unlikely to be learned from Putin's propaganda machine. As has been requested before, what are your sources for your claims?
But the central character is a racist convicted criminal (fraud, embezzlement)
But how do you really feel about him?
who has never managed more than 2% of the vote,
The vote? That's kind of vague. Which vote? He received 27% of the vote in the 2013 Moscow mayoral election. He came in 2nd, the winner being the Putin appointed incumbent.
so it's probably a story about his vanity.
You seem to have formed a very definite opinion of the man. How did you become so familiar with his personality?
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Below is a link to a recent speech by Alexei Navalny explaining the current situation in Russia (8 min. long speech), followed by other speakers reporting on the situation in Russia and Belarus. You may want to read also the many comments elaborating further on the matter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxag9Vof-o4
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As has been requested before, what are your sources for your claims?
But how do you really feel about him?
Both questions answered above. If that is not understood how can it profit either of us to repeat them?
Always ask "cui bono?". Always apply Occam's Razor. If a headline ends with a question mark the answer will be "No".
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Both questions answered above. If that is not understood how can it profit either of us to repeat them?
Always ask "cui bono?". Always apply Occam's Razor. If a headline ends with a question mark the answer will be "No".
You have offered plenty of opinion and assertion. Zero sources.
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You have offered plenty of opinion and assertion. Zero sources.
What else? I'm certainly not going to offer links. I can see where that would lead.
I'm interested in pointing out that there are alternative (more likely?) explanations of events than those offered by the MSM narrative.
Do your own research. Start with a search for "Navalny diet" or "Navalny diabetic". No one is asking you to concur with what you find.
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Right! Navalny's poisoning was caused by his slimming diet. As reported by Moscow Times.
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I'm certainly not going to offer links. I can see where that would lead.
Where would that lead?
I'm interested in pointing out that there are alternative (more likely?) explanations of events than those offered by the MSM narrative.
Sure. As an example, I could indulge in the propaganda put out by a corrupt criminal enterprise functioning as a government. I would question the reliability of their alternative facts and explanations of events based on their motivation and morals as a start. It's the internet age; there is no end to the volume of "alternative explanations" one can consume on any subject. That's what makes questioning the source important.
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Here's a column by Gwynne Dyer on the matter, https://gwynnedyer.com/2020/underpants-beards-and-consonants/ (https://gwynnedyer.com/2020/underpants-beards-and-consonants/).
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Russia Navalny: Poisoned opposition leader held after flying home
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-Russia Navalny: Poisoned opposition leader held after flying home (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55694598)
Kremlin critic Alexei Navalny has been detained after flying back to Moscow five months after he was nearly killed by a nerve agent attack last year.
Mr Navalny, 44, was seen being led away by police at passport control.
Big crowds earlier gathered at Moscow's Vnukovo airport to greet his flight from Berlin but the plane was rerouted.
The activist says the authorities were behind the attempt on his life, an allegation backed up by investigative journalists but denied by the Kremlin.
European Council President Charles Michel described Mr Navalny's detainment as "unacceptable".
"I call on Russian authorities to immediately release him," Mr Michel wrote in a tweet.
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I worry that Navalny is tempting the fate and that this saga may end up similarly to Benazir Bhutto's story when she was assassinated at a political rally after her return from exile to Pakistan.
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I worry that Navalny is tempting the fate and that this saga may end up similarly to Benazir Bhutto's story when she was assassinated at a political rally after her return from exile to Pakistan.
I can't imagine what drove him to return to Russia, knowing what he must know.
For a really good look at how Putin operates, read "Red Notice", the story of how The Magnitsky Act came about. Riveting and horrifying.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22609522-red-notice
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As expected, the outlook for Alexei Navalny back in Russia is not good.
Doctors for the jailed Russian opposition activist Alexei Navalny say he "will die within the next few days" if not given medical attention.
Doctors say recent blood test results indicate he could suffer cardiac arrest or kidney failure at any moment.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56786266
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It is hard to believe that anyone, including Navalny himself, could have expected any other outcome. Only the speed is surprising.
S
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Pick your propaganda. UK? Russia? US?
Navalny himself claims he is not in a grave state:
https://www.rt.com/russia/521715-navalny-medical-care-human-rights/
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I mean, if you can't trust Putin's personal propaganda machine (RT) to give you the truth regarding the condition of someone he tried to assassinate, then who can you trust? Right?
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United Nations Commission on Human Rights Statement - GENEVA (21 April 2021)
Russia: UN experts say Navalny in “serious danger”, call for medical evacuation
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Russia: UN experts say Navalny in “serious danger”, call for medical evacuation (https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=27019&LangID=E)
UN human rights experts* today expressed alarm at the deteriorating health situation of detained Russian Government critic Alexei Navalny, and called for his urgent medical evacuation from Russia.
“We believe Mr. Navalny’s life is in serious danger,” said the independent experts appointed by the Human Rights Council. He has been incarcerated under harsh conditions in a high security penal colony and denied access to adequate medical care. Despite having recently been transferred to a hospital, doctors of his own choosing have not been allowed to visit him.
“We are deeply troubled that Mr. Navalny is being kept in conditions that could amount to torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment in a facility that reportedly does not meet international standards.
“Under international human rights law, when detaining a person, irrespective of the reason for the detention, the State bears full responsibility to care for his life and bodily integrity. Due to this heightened duty of care, the Government of the Russian Federation must take all necessary measures to protect Mr. Navalny’s physical and mental health and well-being.
“We are extremely concerned that the current danger to Mr Navalny’s life, his most recent incarceration and the past attacks on him, including an attempt against his life last August with the nerve agent Novichok, which the Russian authorities have yet to effectively investigate, are all part of a deliberate pattern of retaliation against him for his criticism of the Russian Government and a gross violation of his human rights.”
Mr. Navalny was arrested and placed in detention in January 2021 immediately upon his return to Russia from Germany, where he had spent five months recovering from a serious attempt on his life. In February 2021, he was sentenced to two and a half years in prison for alleged parole violations while he was abroad for medical treatment, and sent to a high security penal colony in Pokrov. In early March, there were reports of a sharp deterioration of his health. According to information received by the experts, after the prison authorities failed to provide him with adequate medical care or allow his own physicians to visit him, on 31 March Mr. Navalny began a hunger strike in protest. After reports emerged that he was at imminent risk of irreversible renal damage and possible cardiac arrest, on 19 April he was transferred to a hospital but still does not have access to medical experts of his own choice.
“As we have previously noted, in light of the rulings and interim measures of the European Court of Human Rights there is no valid legal basis for Mr. Navalny’s arrest, trial and imprisonment in Pokrov,” the experts said.
“The apparent violations of the prohibition of torture or other ill-treatment, his right to counsel, and most notably his right to prompt and effective medical care while in detention only deepen our already profound concerns about Mr. Navalny’s life and safety.
“We urge the Russian authorities to ensure Mr. Navalny has access to his own doctors and to allow him to be evacuated for urgent medical treatment abroad, as they did in August 2020. We reiterate that the Russian Government is accountable for Mr. Navalny’s life and health while he is in detention.”
The UN experts have communicated their concerns to the Russian Government, including through two official letters sent in August and December 2020 in which they raised concerns about Mr. Navalny’s Novichok poisoning.
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Pick your propaganda. UK? Russia? US?
Navalny himself claims he is not in a grave state:
https://www.rt.com/russia/521715-navalny-medical-care-human-rights/
A smiling and healthy Navalny...! A photo taken before he even got novochok...
I pick some other poison/propaganda... thank you!
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I mean, if you can't trust Putin's personal propaganda machine (RT) to give you the truth regarding the condition of someone he tried to assassinate, then who can you trust? Right?
You prefer the personal propaganda machines of Biden and Trump? Both of whom have had their own turns at assassination. Quite within your rights.
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If you'd prefer to deflect and change the subject away from Putin, his activities, and his state-controlled propaganda arm, quite within your rights. But, those rabbit holes aren't going to be very illuminating regarding the "Poisoning of Alexei Navalny" nor his current conditions of confinement and health.
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Pick your propaganda. UK? Russia? US?
Navalny himself claims he is not in a grave state:
https://www.rt.com/russia/521715-navalny-medical-care-human-rights/
There is some logic in why RT writes such propaganda, but I can't understand that there are people who read and believe such a garbage.
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There is some logic in why RT writes such propaganda, but I can't understand that there are people who read and believe such a garbage.
RT's docos are still quite good, but alas its news has been "popularised" lately.
On the other hand, people swallow the stuff dished up by CNN, Fox News, New York Times, Washington Post etc. That they are still in business is proof positive that there is one born every minute.
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I mean, if you can't trust Putin's personal propaganda machine (RT)...
In CNN We Trust.
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My favorite is BBC. They seem to me to be quite even-handed.
Russian state news outlets are propaganda outlets. I am
suprised that anyone outside Russia gives them any credence.
Regards,
Dale
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My favorite is BBC. They seem to me to be quite even-handed.
Russian state news outlets are propaganda outlets. I am
suprised that anyone outside Russia gives them any credence.
Regards,
Dale
How can BBC be even-handed? It is left-oriented and liberal. It's also an arm of the British government.
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How can BBC be even-handed? It is left-oriented and liberal. It's also an arm of the British government.
Maybe you should start a thread on media criticism.
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Maybe you should start a thread on media criticism.
Nah. Too much politics and time wasting already here.
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How can BBC be even-handed? It is left-oriented and liberal. It's also an arm of the British government.
Utter nonsense. Whatever its political views, the BBC most certainly is not an "arm of the British government". I rather suspect many British governments have wished that it were.
S
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Utter nonsense. Whatever its political views, the BBC most certainly is not an "arm of the British government". I rather suspect many British governments have wished that it were.
S
Ok. So it's just liberal and left-leaning.
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Uh-Oh, Alan's on this thread. It'll soon die of political cancer I fear.
Regards,
Dale
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My favorite is BBC. They seem to me to be quite even-handed.
Russian state news outlets are propaganda outlets. I am
suprised that anyone outside Russia gives them any credence.
Regards,
Dale
Media tends to be nationalistic oriented.
If i read some things about Brexit, or the British vaccin Astrazeneca; the BBC is not very neutral. If it is about things happening in other countries it is much better.
The same with Al Jazeera, that does not spend much words on how bad the people are treated that built the world cup stadiums. But many correspondents there are independent and make good news items.
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Uh-Oh, Alan's on this thread. It'll soon die of political cancer I fear.
I doubt it. Evidence from other political threads in which he's active seems to suggest that they carry on for ever. Look at the "bear pit" thread, which has had maybe ten times as many posts as all the other threads in the forum put together (excluding only the "new vaccine" political thread). This place seems to be a political discussion forum, with some members who take the odd photograph (and don't play politics). It's rather disappointing to a newbie hoping for photographic education.
S