Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Daverich on August 14, 2020, 04:10:55 pm

Title: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on August 14, 2020, 04:10:55 pm
I recently started a search for a paper to replace Epson's Legacy Baryta. With that in mind I ordered Hahnemuhle's Glossy Fineart Sample Pack. Because there are only two sheets of each I wasn't able to make my own profiles but thought their profiles would give me an idea of what to expect and then I could narrow down my choice to a couple of their papers. My experience with Epson factory profiles has always been that they're usable but the one's I got from Hahnemuehle were really a disappointment. From my tests I ended up being able to judge paper white, surface texture, feel and bronzing but the colors are so far off I'll have to buy enough of a couple of the papers to make my own profiles. The Hahnemuhle paper in this image is Photo Rag Baryta compared to Epson's Legacy Baryta with my profile. I didn't put any effort into taking this image, the Photo Rag has glare on the top and so on but it's easy to spot some major differences. The strawberries and the skin tones for example. I use an Epson P5000 and the Hahnemuhle profiles are listed for the 5000, 7000 & 9000 printers so maybe that's the problem. I double checked all of my settings and switched to MK ink for the one paper that required it. I was able to learn the things that are most important to me in moving on, I'll just have to do the color on my own.



 
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Rand47 on August 14, 2020, 06:35:50 pm
I recently started a search for a paper to replace Epson's Legacy Baryta. With that in mind I ordered Hahnemuhle's Glossy Fineart Sample Pack. Because there are only two sheets of each I wasn't able to make my own profiles but thought their profiles would give me an idea of what to expect and then I could narrow down my choice to a couple of their papers. My experience with Epson factory profiles has always been that they're usable but the one's I got from Hahnemuehle were really a disappointment. From my tests I ended up being able to judge paper white, surface texture, feel and bronzing but the colors are so far off I'll have to buy enough of a couple of the papers to make my own profiles. The Hahnemuhle paper in this image is Photo Rag Baryta compared to Epson's Legacy Baryta with my profile. I didn't put any effort into taking this image, the Photo Rag has glare on the top and so on but it's easy to spot some major differences. The strawberries and the skin tones for example. I use an Epson P5000 and the Hahnemuhle profiles are listed for the 5000, 7000 & 9000 printers so maybe that's the problem. I double checked all of my settings and switched to MK ink for the one paper that required it. I was able to learn the things that are most important to me in moving on, I'll just have to do the color on my own.

Man, thatís ugly.  There has to be something you missed in your color management with their ICC profiile.  Iíve seen less-than-stellar profiles, but nothing that awful. Iíve used HahnemŁhleís profile for Photo Rag Baryta on my P5000 and it was pretty good, actually.

Rand

Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: JRSmit on August 15, 2020, 02:05:03 am
Looks like there is no color management applied. The greens f.i. are way too dark.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on August 15, 2020, 08:38:50 pm
Man, thatís ugly.  There has to be something you missed in your colormanagement with their ICC profiile.  Iíve seen less-than-stellar profiles, but nothing that awful. Iíve used HahnemŁhle s profile for Photo Rag Baryta on my P5000 and it was pretty good, actually.

Rand

It was a surprise to me. Iíve done this long enough that I can double check the settings and confirm that nothing was wrong other than an unusable profile. Iíve ordered 25 sheet packs of three of the papers so I can make my own profiles and carry on from there.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Rand47 on August 15, 2020, 09:23:38 pm
It was a surprise to me. Iíve done this long enough that I can double check the settings and confirm that nothing was wrong other than an unusable profile. Iíve ordered 25 sheet packs of three of the papers so I can make my own profiles and carry on from there.

Good news.  Iím almost certain (at the risk of insulting your experience) that youíll discover something was amiss, somewhere.  And certainly, making your own profiles is the way to go for that last bit of image quality.  Itís a nice paper and one of the staples in my catalog.

Rand
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on August 16, 2020, 11:38:54 am
Good news.  Iím almost certain (at the risk of insulting your experience) that youíll discover something was amiss, somewhere.  And certainly, making your own profiles is the way to go for that last bit of image quality.  Itís a nice paper and one of the staples in my catalog.

Rand

Going back through everything again I noticed in the P5000 General Settings a notation about a "Missing Filter". That was new to me so I did some research, followed the advice to delete everything Epson on my computer and reinstall from scratch. That took care of the color problem. This image is on Hahnemuhle's FineArt Baryta and again, while I only made a minimal attempt to color balance it for posting, it's clear that printing with the factory profile would be usable. Thanks everyone.

Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Rand47 on August 16, 2020, 11:47:30 am
Excellent news.  Glad you got it sorted out.  Youíre obviously on a Mac, then?  Mark Segal is currently wrestling with yet another broken color management ďgiftĒ on his system.

I used to feel like a 2nd class citizen, doing fine art printing on a Windows OS platform.  The last few years have convinced me otherwise!  Hope this is a permanent fix to that issue for you. 

Rand
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on October 12, 2020, 04:28:49 pm
I'm resurrecting this thread because the problem happened again and I don't have any idea how to solve it. I printed this image on one type of paper and a few days later printed it on another type. I didn't notice the problem right away but after drying the second print for a couple of days I went to put it away and as soon as I put it next to the previous print the color problem jumped out like a sore thumb. Earlier in this thread I described solving the problem by deleting the printer and then searching for and deleting everything related to my printer. After reinstalling the software and printer the problem immediately went away. This time I deleted the printer and then immediately added it again. The problem resolved itself without any further changes by me. Has anyone else here experienced this? Have any suggestions on how to stop this from happening again? I'm on a Mac running macOS 10.15.7, the current version of Photoshop and printing to an Epson P5000. I'm posting a quick snap of before and after prints, the correct one is on the left. It's most obvious in the out of focus green leaves to the right of the trunk but basically all of the colors are off. 

Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: JRSmit on October 13, 2020, 02:12:25 am
Again, looks like no color managed , caused by some, perhaps same , reason of ďmissing filterĒ? Weird, but I am on W10, and luckily have not experienced this thusfar.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Rand47 on October 13, 2020, 09:52:03 am
Quote
I printed this image on one type of paper and a few days later printed it on another type.

Having a difference in color appearance when going from one paper type to another isnít that unusual.  Did you soft proof for the different paper type?  I guess what Iím asking is how you went about compensating for the different paper type - that would lead you to expect exact color match from one to the other?  Explaining your process might help in finding an answer to the difference that youíre seeing, i.e., is is a return of your original problem, or a result of some other aspect of your work flow, or even perhaps a difference in materials characteristics?

Rand
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on October 13, 2020, 11:42:18 am
Having a difference in color appearance when going from one paper type to another isnít that unusual.  Did you soft proof for the different paper type?  I guess what Iím asking is how you went about compensating for the different paper type - that would lead you to expect exact color match from one to the other?  Explaining your process might help in finding an answer to the difference that youíre seeing, i.e., is is a return of your original problem, or a result of some other aspect of your work flow, or even perhaps a difference in materials characteristics?

Rand

I guess I didn't explain the samples I posted very well. This is a return to the original problem. The sample that I posted is before and after deleting and then re-adding my printer on the same paper. As far as printing on different papers, I make my own profiles and while there is a difference between the appearance of different papers, it's pretty subtle. This color change is much larger than that.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on October 13, 2020, 11:44:36 am
Again, looks like no color managed , caused by some, perhaps same , reason of ďmissing filterĒ? Weird, but I am on W10, and luckily have not experienced this thusfar.

It is a return to the same problem although, unlike my earlier post, this time there was no indication of a "missing filter".
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Rand47 on October 13, 2020, 11:48:38 am
I guess I didn't explain the samples I posted very well. This is a return to the original problem. The sample that I posted is before and after deleting and then re-adding my printer on the same paper. As far as printing on different papers, I make my own profiles and while there is a difference between the appearance of different papers, it's pretty subtle. This color change is much larger than that.

Thanks for the clarification!  Sorry the initial problem has reoccurred. 

Rand
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: BradSmith on October 25, 2020, 07:36:15 pm
.................. Mark Segal is currently wrestling with yet another broken color management “gift” on his system........

See the Article that Mark just posted on this site today regarding "missing or broken filter."
Brad
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: ColourPhil on October 26, 2020, 04:11:00 am
See the Article that Mark just posted on this site today regarding "missing or broken filter."
Brad
Sorry but can't see that 'article'. Any chance of a link?
Edit, to say have found it on photopxl.com. Very interesting!
Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on October 26, 2020, 01:57:09 pm
See the Article that Mark just posted on this site today regarding "missing or broken filter."
Brad

Thanks for the heads up on Markís article. Thatís exactly what happened the first time and almost what happened the second time. The second time there was no filter error but the color was off the same way and the solution was the same so Iím sure itís connected to the same problem. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on November 19, 2020, 04:27:42 pm
And yet, it just happened again. Not sure what to do about it other than print a known image before printing anything serious. I've been using the IP driver but many, many years ago I used to use the Bonjour driver. I just made a print with that setup and it matches the IP print so maybe I'll give that a try for awhile. Can't hurt.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on January 24, 2022, 05:41:03 pm
Iím reviving this old thread to see if anyone knows where Photoshop saves the custom printer settings? The only solution Iíve ever found to this problem is to delete the printer driver for my Epson P5000 printer and reinstall it. That takes less than two minutes but in the process I lose all of my custom printer setups which is a pain to start over every time. I thought if anyone knew where the settings were stored I could just replace them. Thanks.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: digitaldog on January 24, 2022, 07:05:46 pm
Iím reviving this old thread to see if anyone knows where Photoshop saves the custom printer settings?
What settings?
If you configure in Print dialog the print parameters for a document, you are asked to save the document (even if all you did was open and print it); that is saved in the document. 
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on January 25, 2022, 10:22:44 am
What settings?
If you configure in Print dialog the print parameters for a document, you are asked to save the document (even if all you did was open and print it); that is saved in the document.

The settings I'm trying to restore after reinstalling the printer are the Saved Presets found under the Print Settings menu. I suspect that if there's anyone on the forum that knows where that would be stored, it's you.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: nirpat89 on January 25, 2022, 11:18:15 am
Good luck and share if you can find them.  I had a similar problem.  I have a feeling they are stored in the printer memory. 
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on January 25, 2022, 12:41:06 pm
The only answer I've been able to find so far with Google are a couple of responses labeled "correct" on one of the Adobe forums that basically say no one knows where they're stored which is silly. Someone knows.

https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-discussions/where-does-photoshop-cc-store-quot-print-setting-quot-presets/td-p/10638703
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on January 25, 2022, 01:03:10 pm
This was suggested as a solution on this forum but doesn't appear to work for me, even after restarting my Mac.

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=100114.0
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: digitaldog on January 25, 2022, 01:15:39 pm
The settings I'm trying to restore after reinstalling the printer are the Saved Presets found under the Print Settings menu. I suspect that if there's anyone on the forum that knows where that would be stored, it's you.
The Save Presets in the Epson dropdown menu (which you should never use in Lightroom Classic BTW) are stored in a plist.
Example: com.apple.print.custompresets.forprinter.EPSON_SC_P800_Series.plis
You don't want to be messing with these kinds of files.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on January 25, 2022, 01:40:18 pm
The Save Presets in the Epson dropdown menu (which you should never use in Lightroom Classic BTW) are stored in a plist.
Example: com.apple.print.custompresets.forprinter.EPSON_SC_P800_Series.plis
You don't want to be messing with these kinds of files.

Once I knew what to search for that was the common answer I kept getting. I tried saving a new preset for my Epson P5000 and the date and time on that file changed to the current date and time. However, replacing that file with an older one from both Time Machine and Carbon Copy Cloner did not restore all of the presets that used to be available as I had hoped. I restarted Photoshop and then my computer to see if that had any effect but it did not. If that is the right file, I'm not sure why replacing it with an older version of it that should have had a bunch more presets didn't restore those presets but it didn't.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: digitaldog on January 25, 2022, 01:42:03 pm
Once I knew what to search for that was the common answer I kept getting. I tried saving a new preset for my Epson P5000 and the date and time on that file changed to the current date and time. However, replacing that file with an older one from both Time Machine and Carbon Copy Cloner did not restore all of the presets that used to be available as I had hoped.
You don't want to be messing with these kinds of files.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on January 26, 2022, 10:23:23 am
Andrew, you're right, that file is kind of a goofy thing. If I add a print preset the timestamp on that file changes to the current time/date. However, if I replace it with a version of it with different presets, nothing happens. If I remove it from it's location, nothing happens. The printing presets remain as is. If I delete the printer and reinstall it I go back to having no presets. At that point, if I put a copy of that file in the proper location that has presets and restart my computer, I get all the presets back again. On that basis, before deleting my printer in the future, I'm going to duplicate that file to my desktop and then replace it after reinstalling the printer. On a side note, all of the custom roll paper sizes that I've created remain available no matter how many times I delete and reinstall. I assume those are stored in a different location for some reason.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: budjames on May 22, 2022, 06:48:57 am
My issues with manufacturer-provided ICC profiles went away when I started using Colorbyte Image Print Black RIP. No more tests, no more wasted time, paper and money. It's expensive, but the savings and lack of frustration, is worth the investments. Colorbyte offers excellent profiles that work only with their software for all of the major brands of papers and a bunch that I have never heard of too.

I upgraded my Epson P800 to the new P900 about a year ago so no more wasted black ink switching from photo to matte black. Now I can use of my stock of various Hahnemuhle fine art papers when appropriate for the subject matter.

I can also experiment with new papers, like Ilford's bamboo fine art paper, without in trepidations.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography.
Title: Re: Hahnemuhle Factory Profiles were a disappointment
Post by: Daverich on May 22, 2022, 01:25:50 pm
My issues with manufacturer-provided ICC profiles went away when I started using Colorbyte Image Print Black RIP. No more tests, no more wasted time, paper and money. It's expensive, but the savings and lack of frustration, is worth the investments. Colorbyte offers excellent profiles that work only with their software for all of the major brands of papers and a bunch that I have never heard of too.

I upgraded my Epson P800 to the new P900 about a year ago so no more wasted black ink switching from photo to matte black. Now I can use of my stock of various Hahnemuhle fine art papers when appropriate for the subject matter.

I can also experiment with new papers, like Ilford's bamboo fine art paper, without in trepidations.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography.

As I still have this problem I was hoping that the revival of my post meant that someone had come up with a solution or at least had the same problem but my impression from your post is that you read the title but not the following discussion. I appreciate your input regarding factory profiles but that turned out to not be the problem. In any event, I use i1 Profiler to make my own profiles.