Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: ltbphoto on May 24, 2020, 12:07:10 pm
-
I recently picked up a V700 to replace my aging Expression 1680, I got a deal that did not include any film holders. I made the purchase assuming I'd just pick up a Betterscanning holder and be done with it, but unfortunately it seems that outfit is no longer operating. I'm trying to figure out what my best second choice is going to be. The V800/850 holders seem like a potential option as are the original V700/750. Could anyone offer guidance on what the best route would be here?
-
http://www.betterscanning.com/scanning/models/vseries.html
Sorry to hear if Betterscanning is no more. Their web site opened for me today.
You could use a piece of Museum Glass to hold your film flat. V700 probably does not have auto focus, just a fixed focus for their film holders. So another piece of glass for a sandwich that you shim up to the proper height.
Maybe someone here can tell you what that height is.
-
With my V750 Pro I place my 4x5’s directly on the glass like you would an 8x10. Use the settings as if you were using the Film Area Guide. It’s in the owners manual which is available online. With that setting you don’t need any extra glass underneath. (I just checked and it’s on page 38 of the 700 manual. You don’t need the plastic frame it talks about.)
-
With my V750 Pro I place my 4x5’s directly on the glass like you would an 8x10. Use the settings as if you were using the Film Area Guide. It’s in the owners manual which is available online. With that setting you don’t need any extra glass underneath. (I just checked and it’s on page 38 of the 700 manual. You don’t need the plastic frame it talks about.)
That's good information, are you putting anything on top of the film to keep it flat? I tried doing this with a piece of plexiglass on top of the film and got terrible Newton rings.
-
That is why you need Museum Glass. A good framing shop had stock and cut a piece for me. You should have the coated side up. It is hard to tell which side this is, so have the frame shop mark it in some way. If you use glass under the film it should be an anti newton ring type.
-
That's good information, are you putting anything on top of the film to keep it flat? I tried doing this with a piece of plexiglass on top of the film and got terrible Newton rings.
I use the glass that came with my Better Scanning setup on top of the film. It does need that or Museum glass or something on top of the film to hold it flat. I wouldn’t think plexiglass was a good choice as it’s not very clear.
-
I really enjoy the Better Scanning holder. I hope they didn't go under- please let us know if you have any information about their closing.
-
With my V750 Pro I place my 4x5’s directly on the glass like you would an 8x10. Use the settings as if you were using the Film Area Guide.
If I recall correctly, optics/resolution for Film Area Guide (flatbed) are not up to those for film holders (approx. 3mm higher). Putting the film directly onto the glass, did you see any drawbacks concerning this? On my machine, transparency scans from the glass were slightly out of focus.
I bit the bullet and went for Epson Wet Mount and KAMI fluid - a bit pricey, but works great.
-
Putting film directly on the platen glass uses the V850's second lens. It has less IQ than the main lens used for film in film holders. You can buy V850 lens holders with ANR glass that keeps the film flat. They also have height adjustments to find the focal point. They're back ordered until August. Check with them to make sure they come with the glass.
https://compassmicro.com/film-holder-assy-4x5-for-epson-perfection-v850-pro.html
-
I've scanned a number of 4x5 negs, B&W and Colour with the V750 4x5 holder with very good results. But I will say that the 4x5 folder is definitely better made that the 120 folder, but of course the 4x5 film is also sturdier that the 120. I do have the fluid mount assembly as well but have never felt the need to use it. I will likely try it at some point simply as a comparison with the 4x5 folder. And of course the 4x5 holder has the same "feet" on the bottom which lets the user either increase or decrease the height of the film, albeit a very small difference, and one would have to do all three settings to define the best one. One thing I do not understand is how one would be able to place a neg on the scanner glass and then use another piece of glass on top without causing Newton's Rings, since the neg would be placed with the emulsion side up, and of couse if the emulsion side is placed down the image will be backward. Of course that can be fixed in Photoshop, but I've also read that doing that could perhaps cause pixel issues. It's been a long time since I read that article, so perhaps it is no longer an issue in PS.
P.S. "I recently picked up a V700 to replace my aging Expression 1680". I found this interesting, only because I would never replace my 1680. I haven't had the top cover attached to the 1680 for many years because it gets in the way and I'd never use it. I use a piece of mount board to protect the glass when not in use. My reason for keeping the 1680 is actually rather obvious. The 1680 does not have a recessed glass/bed, which makes it ideal for scanning pieces larger than the bed, and in some cases much larger. I also do fine art reproductions for local artists, which means I'm usually working with large originals. As a matter of fact I have scanned a 20x30 watercolour and printed it on the Epson Cold Press paper. The artist was very pleased with the results and has brought more pieces since. The only part of scanning that many bites is the placing on the scanner bed. One has to make sure that every scan is placed along the line of the first scan, which is not an issue but does take more time. If everything is done properly Photoshop has no problem stitching the bites back together. Luckily the 20x30 scan was done correctly the first time, so I didn't have to repeat it. :) ;D
-
Putting film directly on the platen glass uses the V850's second lens. It has less IQ than the main lens used for film in film holders. You can buy V850 lens holders with ANR glass that keeps the film flat. They also have height adjustments to find the focal point. They're back ordered until August. Check with them to make sure they come with the glass.
https://compassmicro.com/film-holder-assy-4x5-for-epson-perfection-v850-pro.html
Hello Alan,
In reference to the V850's second lens. As I understand, the V750 was supposed to have a second lens as well. However, I haven't been able to find anything in the manual about such a lens and or when it is used. But of course I haven't yet done much with film placed on the platen, so I wouldn't have noticed anything different, positively or negatively. I also wonder if perhaps that lens could only be put into action when using the Epson Scan app, but I may not be correct about that. I use Silverfast 8 and have also not seen any mention of the second lens in their manual. Just wondering - something I do a lot recently.
-
Hello Alan,
In reference to the V850's second lens. As I understand, the V750 was supposed to have a second lens as well. However, I haven't been able to find anything in the manual about such a lens and or when it is used. But of course I haven't yet done much with film placed on the platen, so I wouldn't have noticed anything different, positively or negatively. I also wonder if perhaps that lens could only be put into action when using the Epson Scan app, but I may not be correct about that. I use Silverfast 8 and have also not seen any mention of the second lens in their manual. Just wondering - something I do a lot recently.
Here're the instructions for 8x10 film for the V750 from their manual. https://files.support.epson.com/htmldocs/prv7ph/prv7phug/html/set2_2.htm#S-00600-00200-00310
Go to the section labelled: Placing Film in the Film Area Guide
I don't know about the second lens for 8x10 in the V750. But I also understood there was one. I could be wrong.
-
Gary: I found this comment on an Epson V750 advertisement link.
"New Dual Lens system and high pass optics"
https://news.epson.com/facts/perf_v750_m_pro_fact_sheet_final_opk_5107
-
I have always gotten better results from putting the film directly on the glass of my 750 compared to using the Epson film holders or the Better Scanning holders.
-
I have always gotten better results from putting the film directly on the glass of my 750 compared to using the Epson film holders or the Better Scanning holders.
I've recently used two different 120 negs to check the on-glass scanning procedure as opposed to the Epson holder. As a start, I'm using Silverfast for the scans, which I've been using since I bought my first flat bed scanner, an Epson 1680, but using the V750 for many years. I use museum glass to hold the neg flat. However, when I compare both scan procedures at the same magnification I can see hardly any difference in sharpness, if any. I'll be doing further tests again soon to make sure I've been doing everything I can to produce the best scan possible from the glass. Any particular added information would be much appreciated! :)
-
I've recently used two different 120 negs to check the on-glass scanning procedure as opposed to the Epson holder. As a start, I'm using Silverfast for the scans, which I've been using since I bought my first flat bed scanner, an Epson 1680, but using the V750 for many years. I use museum glass to hold the neg flat. However, when I compare both scan procedures at the same magnification I can see hardly any difference in sharpness, if any. I'll be doing further tests again soon to make sure I've been doing everything I can to produce the best scan possible from the glass. Any particular added information would be much appreciated! :)
What Epson holder? The one with or without the ANR glass? Did you focus the height of the Epson holder?
-
What Epson holder? The one with or without the ANR glass? Did you focus the height of the Epson holder?
The Epson holder I referred to is the 120/MF holder that came with the V750 originally. No ANR glass. The only MF holder I have that has the ANR glass is the Fisher MF Holder from Betterscanning. I haven't used that one much. Mostly because I'm dealing with separate 120 negs, not strips. The individual negs do not work very well with that holder, difficult to keep in place while inserting the T-Lock or the ANR Glass, but I imagine film strips would work quite well.
One more thought. In my initial post I mentioned the possible pixel issue of Flipping an image in Photoshop. I recall reading an article about that many years ago but I can no longer find it when I actually need it. Have you ever come across such information concerning this possible issue Alan? Doug Fisher seems to have no problem mentioning flipping an image that has been scanned with the emulsion side down, so I assume that old article has since been debunked.
-
Gary, I scan the film as instructed by Epson. On occasion when I screwed it up and scanned it reversed, I just reversed the result in post processing. But I didn't notice any difference in the scan. That's with my older V600 without the glass in the holders. I haven't tried to scan medium format yet with my newer V850 that has glass and height adjustments. I believe you can use the V850 holder with glass and height adjustments in the V750. YOu might have to adapt it slightly or hold the holder to the glass platen with painters tape. The glass should hold the single MF shot better than the V750 without the glass.
https://compassmicro.com/products/scanners/perfection-v850-pro/film-holder-assy-brownie-for-epson-perfection-v850-pro.html
-
PS call them to make sure it's the one that has the height adjustments and ANR glass.
-
Hello Alan,
Yes, I'm sure the V850 MF holder from Compass would fit the V750. I do have the Doug Fisher MF holder with the ANR Glass and it is also height adjustable. I have already done a slight adjustment, but I probably should do more with a better neg to test. I just finished some more tests with the Epson V750 MF holder, the Fisher MF Holder with ANR Glass and at the Scanner Glass with the Museum Glass. At this point I'm seeing a slightly sharper image from the Scanner Glass than from the to two film holders. I must admit that it seems obvious to me that the Scanner Glass should produce the best scan, but of course what's obvious to me may not actually be true or indeed obvious. Hopefully that last sentence made some sense to the reader ???. Below is a screenshot of he Fisher MF Holder I've referred to. This one shows 4 bumpers on the top, where as mine has 6 bumpers.
-
Nick Carver compres V750 scans with different holders. You might find it interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfGKd_AEZtY
-
Nick Carver compres V750 scans with different holders. You might find it interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfGKd_AEZtY
Thanks Alan. I have one of his vids that I downloaded a while ago. However I will check this one in case there's more info of use. One more question though. As mentioned, I do have a piece of museum glass which I bought for the purpose of scanning. Of the two negs I've scanned on the scanner glass I've used the museum glass to flatten them. I've carefully looked for Newton's Rings on both scans but so far have seen none. That makes me believe that perhaps museum glass can also take care of Newton's Rings as well as its original use of deleting reflections when used as framing glass. Is there any information about this or is it perhaps simply a one off situation combined with a bit of luck? Just wondering, again.
Also - Am I correct in assuming that perhaps when scanning without a holder it would be better to use the Epson Fluid Mount Accessory in stead of placing the film directly on the scanner glass/platen. In theory the height of the Fluid Mount glass should be correct, while perhaps the scanner glass may not be, since it's not designed to handle film as opposed reflective materials. More testing coming probably.
-
Gary, I never used a fluid mount and I never used museum glass. So I would be guessing. Sorry.
-
Am I correct in assuming that perhaps when scanning without a holder it would be better to use the Epson Fluid Mount Accessory in stead of placing the film directly on the scanner glass/platen. In theory the height of the Fluid Mount glass should be correct, while perhaps the scanner glass may not be, since it's not designed to handle film as opposed reflective materials. More testing coming probably.
Recently I did some testing with a V750, comparing Epson Fluid Mount Accessory + KAMI vs. scanner glass + KAMI. I scanned 135 and 120 negs with VueScan.
My findings:
- Wet mounting helps reducing scratches etc, thus speeding up post production.
- Scans from the glass/platen were - in my case - not as sharp as those from EFMA (which I adjusted in height with small amounts of tape to achieve max. sharpness).
- VueScan offered me 4800 dpi when using the platen, 6000 dpi when using the film holder - but I did not see much difference between those two resolutions. Using 6000 dpi seemed to add more noise than data.
- Sharpening in post (be it Sharpen AI, Lightroom, PixelGenius...) was essential, regardless of whether I used glass or EFMA.
- And finally: Using a good camera/macro lens on a repro stand is considerably faster :-)