Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => iPhone and Mobile Photography => Topic started by: Peter McLennan on February 04, 2020, 11:37:11 am

Title: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Peter McLennan on February 04, 2020, 11:37:11 am
https://photographylife.com/camera-companies-smartphone-survival

The simple fact is, absent the need for large prints, modern (and upcoming) phone cameras are more than good enough for most users - even decades-long professionals like me.

The new Samsung S20 will approach the cost of a Nikon Z6, and offers many capabilities absent in the higher priced Nikon. I'm finding it very tempting, even though few have even seen one.

My mind's not made up yet, but I'm leaning more and more towards the phone.  My HP Z3200 is gonna hate me.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: kers on February 04, 2020, 11:56:39 am
https://photographylife.com/camera-companies-smartphone-survival

The simple fact is, absent the need for large prints, modern (and upcoming) phone cameras are more than good enough for most users - even decades-long professionals like me.

The new Samsung S20 will approach the cost of a Nikon Z6, and offers many capabilities absent in the higher priced Nikon. I'm finding it very tempting, even though few have even seen one.

My mind's not made up yet, but I'm leaning more and more towards the phone.  My HP Z3200 is gonna hate me.

If it suits your photographic needs - then it is the way to go... for my photographic needs it is not an option.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: chez on February 04, 2020, 03:35:11 pm
Much of the enjoyment of photography for me is the ability to choose different lenses, figuring out the composition, deciding on the aperture and shutter, focusing etc... A phone camera just does not bring that enjoyment to me.
Title: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6—Fine if reach needs are modest
Post by: BJL on February 04, 2020, 04:46:24 pm
https://photographylife.com/camera-companies-smartphone-survival

The simple fact is, absent the need for large prints, modern (and upcoming) phone cameras are more than good enough for most users - even decades-long professionals like me.
That might make sense for you and many other photographers; I'm guessing that your main FOV choices are from wide to normal or a bit beyond, which is true of many people including many great photographers; I have no complaint!)

But as I suspected, that article has a familiar, huge blind-spot: in a word "zoom". Or "reach".  The ability to photograph a small or distant subject, like even a face in a "long portrait" framing — and to do that without cropping to a very small number of very small pixels — is one huge difference between any current phone camera and either
(a) a fixed lens "compact camera" with wide-ranging zoom lens, or
(b) an ILC camera with a 4X or longer standard zoom lens, or a standard, entry-level two zoom lens kit.
Note that the "telephoto" lenses of recent phones are typically about "50mm equivalent" and with smaller, lower resolution sensors than the main camera. Thus, to match even the long end of my diminutive Olympus 12-50 ("24-100") M4/3 lens would be a 2X crop from that small, low resolution sensor, using about 1/25th as much sensor area as the 4/3 sensor and a far smaller aperture opening, so gathering light far more slowly. And that is comparing to the smallest ILC format and one of its smallest, lightest zoom lenses; step up to a APS-C sensor, or fit the M4/3 body a 12-60/3.5-5.6 or 14-150/3.5-5.6, and the telephoto performance gap is even more dramatic, in still a moderately priced package.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: luxborealis on February 04, 2020, 07:28:58 pm
I'm with you, Peter - 100%.

I have a Nikon D800E with various lenses and zooms, and a D7200, and a Sony RX10iii. I really cannot see upgrading any of them, particularly when my iPhone 11 Pro does such an amazing job with capturing the moment, especially when travelling, so it became "my next camera". In fact I bought an iPhone 8 Plus before that (almost as great) and traded it in for the iPhone 11 Pro.

Being a not quite "old" film guy from the 70s, 80s and 90s (35mm, 6x7, 4x5), I am constantly amazed at how far photography and technology have come. No, I don't use the iPhone for professional gigs, but it sure does a great job for just about everything else!
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6—Fine if reach needs are modest
Post by: Peter McLennan on February 04, 2020, 09:02:14 pm

But as I suspected, that article has a familiar, huge blind-spot: in a word "zoom". Or "reach".  The ability to photograph a small or distant subject, like even a face in a "long portrait" framing

I agree.  My current phone camera (Pixel 3A) suffers greatly from a lack of reach.  The upcoming Samsung S20 supposedly offers an optical zoom function - possibly 3:1 or even 5:1.  That would go a long way towards sealing the deal for me.

A few months ago, I chanced upon a drum circle, a group of 50 or so drummers who'd assembled ad hoc on a beach in Vancouver.  I was able to shoot reasonable quality video (and sound!) of this event and edit it into a pretty neat little three minute film.  If I'd used a "regular" camera, as soon as I pulled out the video camera, everything would have changed. But because I was "just some guy with his phone", nobody cared.  This is exceptionally liberating.

I don't intend on any BIF shoots with my phone, though. :)

This is not great art, but...

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_d13vM49qUufOpN032GMhFktx-YmdTZRcZHntEXU2Py6uuvikiiR-pVbTp4hP0JeROV1mwD8L-kdFEKeLNgQfL1Tsj_iS4xpt_rU1nKSrT-whidP_sRluEUw5uSc2naHAf3SYLMdRw=w2400)


... it shows what a phone can do hand held, several hours after sunset.

While I was shooting this image, the word "astrophotography" appeared on my screen.  Google has apparently upgraded my phone.  I did a few test shots and they did indeed show stars.  However, even Google can't allow me to shoot stars hand held. The exposure time was more than a minute, and the results were surprising, but soft. I intend to go out again, armed with a tripod, to see what Google has in store for me.

luxborealis' recent travel article on Ethiopia was an eye-opener.  Like him, my D800 sits unused.  My RX10 Mk IV has been sold, despite its extraordinary flexiblity.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6—Fine if reach needs are modest
Post by: BJL on February 04, 2020, 09:43:14 pm
I agree.  My current phone camera (Pixel 3A) suffers greatly from a lack of reach.  The upcoming Samsung S20 supposedly offers an optical zoom function - possibly 3:1 or even 5:1.  That would go a long way towards sealing the deal for me.
And to be clear, I agree with you; for one thing, the night mode of my iPhone 11 is amazing for handling low light (if the subject stays still!)

But as an example of something I would not try with a phone (yet):
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6—Fine if reach needs are modest
Post by: chez on February 04, 2020, 09:57:55 pm
I agree.  My current phone camera (Pixel 3A) suffers greatly from a lack of reach.  The upcoming Samsung S20 supposedly offers an optical zoom function - possibly 3:1 or even 5:1.  That would go a long way towards sealing the deal for me.

A few months ago, I chanced upon a drum circle, a group of 50 or so drummers who'd assembled ad hoc on a beach in Vancouver.  I was able to shoot reasonable quality video (and sound!) of this event and edit it into a pretty neat little three minute film.  If I'd used a "regular" camera, as soon as I pulled out the video camera, everything would have changed. But because I was "just some guy with his phone", nobody cared.  This is exceptionally liberating.

I don't intend on any BIF shoots with my phone, though. :)

This is not great art, but...

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_d13vM49qUufOpN032GMhFktx-YmdTZRcZHntEXU2Py6uuvikiiR-pVbTp4hP0JeROV1mwD8L-kdFEKeLNgQfL1Tsj_iS4xpt_rU1nKSrT-whidP_sRluEUw5uSc2naHAf3SYLMdRw=w2400)


... it shows what a phone can do hand held, several hours after sunset.

While I was shooting this image, the word "astrophotography" appeared on my screen.  Google has apparently upgraded my phone.  I did a few test shots and they did indeed show stars.  However, even Google can't allow me to shoot stars hand held. The exposure time was more than a minute, and the results were surprising, but soft. I intend to go out again, armed with a tripod, to see what Google has in store for me.

luxborealis' recent travel article on Ethiopia was an eye-opener.  Like him, my D800 sits unused.  My RX10 Mk IV has been sold, despite its extraordinary flexiblity.

Ummm...I'm seeing a bunch of blotchy noise and fuzziness in the image. Might look good for a phone shot...but does not cut the cake for anything serious.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: kers on February 05, 2020, 06:34:30 am
I don't like the way of making photogrraphs with an iPhone; i prefer a viewfinder.
Having said that... I like it better to use an iPad- somehow it makes me feel it is an large format camera.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6—Fine if reach needs are modest
Post by: Peter McLennan on February 05, 2020, 10:09:45 am
...but does not cut the cake for anything serious.

I suppose that depends on what you term "serious". 

I don't intend on pulling a 30X40 from this image, but if I want to say, send it to my sister, I can do that, right from the set.  The "share" button on my phone camera is an extraordinary benefit.

I've made three Blurb books so far this year, all of which contain images from my Nikon, my Sony and my phone, some of which are full bleed double page spreads nearly two feet wide.  Nobody can tell which camera made which image.  Nor do they care.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6—Fine if reach needs are modest
Post by: kers on February 05, 2020, 10:14:53 am
I suppose that depends on what you term "serious". 

I don't intend on pulling a 30X40 from this image, but if I want to say, send it to my sister, I can do that, right from the set.  The "share" button on my phone camera is an extraordinary benefit.

I've made three Blurb books so far this year, all of which contain images from my Nikon, my Sony and my phone, some of which are full bleed double page spreads nearly two feet wide.  Nobody can tell which camera made which image.  Nor do they care.
I depends on what you care...
some photos cannot be made than with a phone , others cannot be made without ...something else...

Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Jonathan Cross on February 05, 2020, 04:36:24 pm
We now have the choice of a iPhone 11 or similar that costs not much different from a fixed lens aps-c camera with a similar focal length.  The latter will have more pixels, but the phone does loads more and is more pocketable.  For street or people photography that is not going to be printed more than 12x8" or a bit bigger, which does one choose?

Best wishes,

Jonathan

Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: chez on February 05, 2020, 04:47:18 pm
We now have the choice of a iPhone 11 or similar that costs not much different from a fixed lens aps-c camera with a similar focal length.  The latter will have more pixels, but the phone does loads more and is more pocketable.  For street or people photography that is not going to be printed more than 12x8" or a bit bigger, which does one choose?

Best wishes,

Jonathan

Depends on how you view photography. I take photos mainly for enjoyment and using the ergonomics of a phone to compose and shoot street scenes isn't something I call enjoyable. We talk about the lousy ergonomics of camera X...but what about a phone?
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Alan Klein on February 05, 2020, 10:19:07 pm
When I travel on vacation , I use a 20mb Sony RX100iv which fits in my shirt pocket.  The short zoom, eye level viewfinder, and flash, make it easier to shoot in strong sunlight and use at night.  The ergonomics are better than a phone which seems so awkward to me.  It's 4K video does a nce job.  It ;looks beautiful on a 75" UHDTV when I make a slideshow in video.  I don;lt print much any more so it works. 

On the other hand, I'll also use a cellphone.  Here's a slide/video show with a Galaxy S7.  I forgot my regular camera and it did a great job.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcmwLSiS-as

Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: BJL on February 06, 2020, 09:45:17 pm
When I travel on vacation , I use a 20mb Sony RX100iv which fits in my shirt pocket.  The short zoom, eye level viewfinder, and flash, make it easier to shoot in strong sunlight and use at night.  The ergonomics are better than a phone which seems so awkward to me. ...
A “jacket-pocketable” camera like that, with the brightest zoom lens compatible with that size constraint, is something I have my eye on: the lens and sensor size increase would open up huge advantages over the phone for some opportunities, and yet still go with me almost everywhere. Sadly the newer RX100 got bloated for the sake of far more zoom reach—what are the best options like that these days?
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Alan Klein on February 06, 2020, 09:58:52 pm
A “jacket-pocketable” camera like that, with the brightest zoom lens compatible with that size constraint, is something I have my eye on: the lens and sensor size increase would open up huge advantages over the phone for some opportunities, and yet still go with me almost everywhere. Sadly the newer RX100 got bloated for the sake of far more zoom reach—what are the best options like that these days?
The older RX100 versions with brighter lenses although less zoom are still available at a lower price point.  They also have a built in ND filter useful especially for videos that the later models don't have.  Canon also has a similar camera with a small footprint.  But I'm not familiar with it haven't never used it.  Here's a review of it compared with the SOny's
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-powershot-g5-x-mark-ii-review/6
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: jeremyrh on May 19, 2020, 05:42:06 am
I think what's interesting is how much a phone makes up for physical limitations by using computation. Imagine what a "proper" camera could do if it used similar techniques!  A simple app can already do a good job of simulating shallow DoF (with the sharp area chosen by the user) and various types of bokeh.  At present we are used to the truth that film types can be simulated by digital processes. Next step will be simulating $1000 lenses usung a $10 app.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Rob C on May 19, 2020, 09:14:57 am
Depends on how you view photography. I take photos mainly for enjoyment and using the ergonomics of a phone to compose and shoot street scenes isn't something I call enjoyable. We talk about the lousy ergonomics of camera X...but what about a phone?

And worse, the ergonomics of an iPad? Truly abysmal. The only video I ever make is an accidental one with the iPad when something changes and I can't hit the right exposure command. As you suggest, camera x is probably a million times better designed to photographic purpose.

I hate both the cellphone and the iPad interfaces. And no, I don't give a damn about "sharing" pictures with anyone unless I have had a chance to edit 'em first, and by edit, I include tweak to best advantage. I have no overwhelming desire to see what my family had for lunch today, nor do I give a flying stuff about looking at somebody's cute cat, baby or dog, in whichever order anyone deems politically acceptable.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Peter McLennan on May 19, 2020, 01:09:44 pm
I hate both the cellphone and the iPad interfaces....And no, I don't give a damn about "sharing" pictures with anyone ... nor do I give a flying stuff about looking at somebody's cute cat,...

Rob, "sharing" an image immediately has amazing value.  Tweaking may or may not be valuable, but immediacy and informational content can trump IQ.

Agreed, the phone interface is horrible compared to a proper viewfinder.  However, phones have novel advantages over your favourite split-image rangefinder.  Voice-activated shutter, for example can be a godsend.  Inexplicably found only on phones. Who needs an effing cable release? Shooting a high angle (or somewhere else inaccessible) and can't see the viewfinder?  No problem.  Just say "shoot". Done.

And as for cute cats, well, sorry, I couldn't resist:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9ghMM8DyY-EBeR1WHZf8U_icYFjfVFfIZ4rcnKjqDQCfIw_7HAjy73JuG2KlsEGvU-HXnH-_S7XqhFfR6-xzLwtrW_4LaPkQdnghmH3c2xK6HcPf0hr3ywxaDurC9s2JGwFS71DUGg=w2400)

Nigel did this to me in the garden without warning.  My D800 was in the house.  My phone was in my shirt pocket.




Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: sdwilsonsct on May 19, 2020, 02:15:15 pm
Wonderful light in the shadows, Peter.

I still use my DSLR for it's flip-out screen and great range of focal lengths (even if the zoom always seems to settle on 35 mm...).
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Peter McLennan on May 19, 2020, 03:13:46 pm
Wonderful light in the shadows, Peter.

Credit goes to ACR and the phone's DNG files. :)

Quote
I still use my DSLR for it's flip-out screen and great range of focal lengths (even if the zoom always seems to settle on 35 mm...).
Of course. There are many things a DSLR can do that my phone won't. Glad yours still gets used. Mine just sees a lot less use nowadays. For many things, the phone is more than good enough.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Rob C on May 19, 2020, 05:08:40 pm
Rob, "sharing" an image immediately has amazing value.  Tweaking may or may not be valuable, but immediacy and informational content can trump IQ.

Agreed, the phone interface is horrible compared to a proper viewfinder.  However, phones have novel advantages over your favourite split-image rangefinder.  Voice-activated shutter, for example can be a godsend.  Inexplicably found only on phones. Who needs an effing cable release? Shooting a high angle (or somewhere else inaccessible) and can't see the viewfinder?  No problem.  Just say "shoot". Done.

And as for cute cats, well, sorry, I couldn't resist:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9ghMM8DyY-EBeR1WHZf8U_icYFjfVFfIZ4rcnKjqDQCfIw_7HAjy73JuG2KlsEGvU-HXnH-_S7XqhFfR6-xzLwtrW_4LaPkQdnghmH3c2xK6HcPf0hr3ywxaDurC9s2JGwFS71DUGg=w2400)

Nigel did this to me in the garden without warning.  My D800 was in the house.  My phone was in my shirt pocket.


Great shot, but I have bad news: Nigel has been fooling you: he ain't no cat, he's an acrobat.

:-)
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Peter McLennan on May 19, 2020, 07:11:56 pm
Great shot, but I have bad news: Nigel has been fooling you: he ain't no cat, he's an acrobat.

He is that.

At the risk of this becoming a cat thread, here's Nigel at about six months, stretching his acrobatic skills

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/KyvtIdjG6HuOXQYr98gsS5ubOO94BEnjUald4eFNZ2Mhu_1NLXZSSMuyBE2SA6l_l-1ndeaT7agIJKdIUJSjwJLwJwIKPwtjVaT2VjnVLoP7fva68rWDch12fpm0qat3y6ujnGHFmw=w2400)

A good example of what a phone can't do: 200mm.

Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: jimh on May 19, 2020, 07:20:16 pm
I get the part about the convenience of the pocketable phone, and of being able to shoot without attracting attention.  And that's about it - I hate everything else about them. I have to put on reading glasses to use one, and out in the sun, I can't even see the screen, so it's useless.  Trying to hold it in one hand at arm's length, framing a shot while using the other hand to try and trigger the shutter - you gotta be kidding me.

For travel, I totally love my Nikon Z50 and a couple of lightweight lenses.  I'd never dream of giving up the ergonomics or the flexibility.  Think "cold dead fingers".

I wrote a blog post about why I think lenses are the reason 'real' cameras will always rule.  It's probably not of interest to you more experienced shooters, who already know all this, but here it is anyway.

[SELF_PROMOTION]
https://jimhphoto.com/index.php/2019/12/18/lenses-are-the-real-deal/
[/SELF_PROMOTION]
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Peter McLennan on May 19, 2020, 08:34:01 pm
Trying to hold it in one hand at arm's length, framing a shot while using the other hand to try and trigger the shutter - you gotta be kidding me.

A perfect example of how voice activated shutter works for the photographer.
Why can't the majors figure this out?  It is SO useful.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: John R on May 21, 2020, 01:46:17 am
You guys should keep this going. I am really enjoying the discussion. And the images! For me, the inability to hold the phone steady for any serious use, like JimH said, is discouraging. I was looking for an adapter, which amounts to a cell phone holder/mount, so I can trigger the camera while steady. At this point, the cell phone is no longer compact. And it took a full year for me to realize I had a camera in my pocket. Doh... it takes a while to adapt to new technology that is so radical compared to the way we still use cameras. I got a cell phone because I got tired of cobwebs in filthy phone-booths. When the phone took my last few quarters and didn't allow me to make a call, and the operator told me to use my credit card for a 50 cent call, that was the last straw - for me - and that poor dilapidated phone!

JR
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Rob C on May 25, 2020, 08:26:02 am
I get the part about the convenience of the pocketable phone, and of being able to shoot without attracting attention.  And that's about it - I hate everything else about them. I have to put on reading glasses to use one, and out in the sun, I can't even see the screen, so it's useless.  Trying to hold it in one hand at arm's length, framing a shot while using the other hand to try and trigger the shutter - you gotta be kidding me.

For travel, I totally love my Nikon Z50 and a couple of lightweight lenses.  I'd never dream of giving up the ergonomics or the flexibility.  Think "cold dead fingers".

I wrote a blog post about why I think lenses are the reason 'real' cameras will always rule.  It's probably not of interest to you more experienced shooters, who already know all this, but here it is anyway.

[SELF_PROMOTION]
https://jimhphoto.com/index.php/2019/12/18/lenses-are-the-real-deal/
[/SELF_PROMOTION]

Absolutely agree, and the iPad is even worse from the ergonomic point of view (no pun etc.); these devices perform a great primary communication function, but to try to pretend they are universal photographic tools too is nonsense. In fact, when it comes to forming purchasing opinion within the non-camera aware group of buyers, downright misleading. Lies, in other words.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Peter McLennan on May 25, 2020, 02:58:43 pm
Normally, I'd not post anything here that wasn't at least close to "my best work", but this video is informative, if not fine art. So bear with me, please.

I'd owned the phone for a few days when I encountered this event and decided to shoot some test footage.  Note that, as part of the test, there's some slow mo of water, shot a half hour after sunset.  Lemme say that again, slo mo, hand held, a half hour after sunset.  With a phone.  Like I said, this is mostly a camera test.  If you're not watching this on a phone, turn up your speakers.  The sound is pretty good.  For a phone. :)

The IQ is not great, but there's lots to learn from the footage. Nor is the camera operating up to scratch.  I made the fatal, common mistake of trusting that tiny screen.  No post-stabilizing was used. Everything you see here was shot within about an hour.

We all know what happens when you pull out a camera.  Everything changes.  Usually, not for the better. 

In this case, nobody cared. "It's just some guy with his phone". In fact, I got a few smiles.  With a "proper" camera, that seldom happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7uaGFLhbJs&feature=youtu.be



Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: loganphoto on May 25, 2020, 06:06:01 pm
Try shooting in raw.  Worked for me on android a lot.  The new iPhone HEIC image format is so good though that I don't think you need RAW.
Title: Re: Why my next camera will be a phone, not a Z6
Post by: Peter McLennan on May 25, 2020, 08:30:37 pm
Try shooting in raw.

I do.  The pixel produces DNG files that are quite malleable.