Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: deliberate1 on January 25, 2020, 01:01:09 pm
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My wife is a basket weaver who uses 300gm Arches Watercolor paper which she first paints before weaving. We have a gallery talk coming up and want to be able to prepare a joint work. I suggested that she weave an image of mine, but the coated paper I typically use (Hahnemuhle Baryta) is too stiff for her to work with. So she suggested that I use her paper, classic Arches Watercolor rag. I have to admit that it looks just lovely, but I wondered how it would take the matte ink, and whether there would be bleed absent the typical coating on printing paper. My printed is an Epson 7800 (blessed machine).
I have done a search on line without determining if this is possible, or even advisable. I should mention that the image will be monochrome, and I would have to switch out the photo ink. Knowing the waste associated with that process, I would like to have some confidence that it would work before going through that process.
Any help would be appreciated.
David
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My wife is a basket weaver who uses 300gm Arches Watercolor paper which she first paints before weaving. We have a gallery talk coming up and want to be able to prepare a joint work. I suggested that she weave an image of mine, but the coated paper I typically use (Hahnemuhle Baryta) is too stiff for her to work with. So she suggested that I use her paper, classic Arches Watercolor rag. I have to admit that it looks just lovely, but I wondered how it would take the matte ink, and whether there would be bleed absent the typical coating on printing paper. My printed is an Epson 7800 (blessed machine).
I have done a search on line without determining if this is possible, or even advisable. I should mention that the image will be monochrome, and I would have to switch out the photo ink. Knowing the waste associated with that process, I would like to have some confidence that it would work before going through that process.
Any help would be appreciated.
David
20 Years ago I was using this paper with my dye ink epson and the results were quite good. I have a print on the wall that did not begin to fade for 15 years. :)
The matte pigment ink I think is not as dark as the old Epson dye black ink, so I would expect a rather low contrast print. I'm sorry that I can't help you avoiding a testing session though. I think Paul Roark has a bit of experience printing B&W on non-coated papers so I hope he can help you here.
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Bruce, obliged for your kind reply.
David
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My wife is a basket weaver who uses 300gm Arches Watercolor paper which she first paints before weaving. We have a gallery talk coming up and want to be able to prepare a joint work. I suggested that she weave an image of mine, but the coated paper I typically use (Hahnemuhle Baryta) is too stiff for her to work with. So she suggested that I use her paper, classic Arches Watercolor rag. I have to admit that it looks just lovely, but I wondered how it would take the matte ink, and whether there would be bleed absent the typical coating on printing paper. My printed is an Epson 7800 (blessed machine).
I've printed on Arches cold-pressed watercolor paper with a 9800. It was a long time ago. I remember the Dmax and gamut not being great, but it did work.
Jim
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Depends on the image. I never print on glossy media, so I am probably more accepting of the the lower gamut and dmax. I print from LR and softproof trying to make the proof match the original. I increase contrast, clarity and even use Dehaze. I use a Cannon Aqurelle profile, not ideal but it works as a base to start with. When I use print I use the ink load controls in the Epson driver, and print unidirectionally and increase the time, etc. Be prepared to do test prints. For more info check out Paul Roark’s site for the ultimate regarding printing on Arches.
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Again gents thanks for the help. I particularly appreciate the link to Paul's site. I had read him in the past but had forgotten about his expertise on this topic.
David
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David,
I print monochrome photos on Arches HP (and many other uncoated) papers with an Epson P800 with great success for many images. I also do the same with an old Epson 1400 converted to Piezography inks.
I think that the Ultrachrome HD ink set of the P800 helps with the lower Dmax on matre/untreated papers compared with older ink sets, but have no hard data to back up that impression.
In addition to the somewhat diminished Dmax, one thing to be aware of is that the midtone contrast on these papers is somewhat flat. However, this can be compensated for when preparing the file for printing.
Regards,
--- Frank
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In addition to the somewhat diminished Dmax, one thing to be aware of is that the midtone contrast on these papers is somewhat flat. However, this can be compensated for when preparing the file for printing.
Regards,
--- Frank
Frank, I do not want to get to much into the weeds, but are you driving your BW prints through PS/LR or with printer management/Advanced Black and White. I know this is going to take some trial and error, but it would be helpful to have a starting point.
Cheers.
David
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We have printed quite a lot on Arches and other papers ranging from kraft to actual goatskin parchment with good results for those wanting to paint on top. If the paper is uncoated and can lay relatively flat, it works just fine in the printer. As other posters have mentioned, the contrast, dmax and sharpness will be limited, but as an underpainting, the quality is pretty good. If you want a better quality reproduction there are plenty of lovely matte rag and fibre inkjet papers that can be painted on. Several clients use Hahenmühle german etching and photorag. Ilford also makes creative emulsion (https://ilford.com/product/creative-emulsion/) that you can coat on any paper to get a better result.
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We have printed quite a lot on Arches and other papers ranging from kraft to actual goatskin parchment with good results for those wanting to paint on top. If the paper is uncoated and can lay relatively flat, it works just fine in the printer. As other posters have mentioned, the contrast, dmax and sharpness will be limited, but as an underpainting, the quality is pretty good. If you want a better quality reproduction there are plenty of lovely matte rag and fibre inkjet papers that can be painted on. Several clients use Hahenmühle german etching and photorag. Ilford also makes creative emulsion (https://ilford.com/product/creative-emulsion/) that you can coat on any paper to get a better result.
You reminded me of something that, while not directly related to the topic at hand, may serve to spark ideas about manipulating inkjet prints on watercolor paper. Dan Burkholder used to print on uncoated paper, then coat the print with a platinum emulsion, contact print it with a neg, and develop the result as if it were an ordinary platinum print. The results were interesting, and I still have one of the prints he made this way.
Jim
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Frank, I do not want to get to much into the weeds, but are you driving your BW prints through PS/LR or with printer management/Advanced Black and White. I know this is going to take some trial and error, but it would be helpful to have a starting point.
Cheers.
David
David,
I am using the ABW mode. For most papers (including Arches HP) I use the media type "watercolor paper-radiant white" and the "darker" setting in the ABW settings dialog.
I also add just a little bit of toning (H=V=6) for many not really bright white papers. The neutral setting is, to my eye, just a bit cool when printed on a slightly warm paper.
As you say, it will probably take a bit of experimentation, but that just adds to the fun!
--- Frank
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You reminded me of something that, while not directly related to the topic at hand, may serve to spark ideas about manipulating inkjet prints on watercolor paper. Dan Burkholder used to print on uncoated paper, then coat the print with a platinum emulsion, contact print it with a neg, and develop the result as if it were an ordinary platinum print. The results were interesting, and I still have one of the prints he made this way.
Jim
Oh thanks a lot Jim... another rabbit hole to explore!!!! :D
For anyone interested, Burkholder's website has a few examples of this technique, see: https://www.danburkholder.com/pigment-over-platinum.html.
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Yes I have done that platinum over ink jet color and it’s really cool. It’s the platinum in the emulsion that’s give you the max black. If you do a search on google you will find the step by step method for it.
http://picturesbyhand.blogspot.com/2017/05/process-obsession.html
I have printed on the Arches printmaking papers with different printers, especially with the HP Z 3200 , which does a good job of making linearizations and icc profiles on uncoated media like Arches, uncoated Kozo and uncoated hand made hemp papers. The important issue is ink limits. If you lay down too much ink your dmax decreases . You need a custom linearization, which means you need a spectrometer like an xrite i1 to read the patches.
The newer Epson and Canon printers have much improved MK density over the previous models. Which is where HP Z Vivera inks were 12 years ago. Right now I believe Cones Piezography reformulated Carbon MK has the best dmax out there. You can buy a refillable cart with the programmable chip to put it in the printer. These inks are totally compatible with all Epson inksets. I plan to put it in my Epson 7890 after seeing it in my 3880.
You are never going to have as high a dmax on uncoated papers as ones with a good inkjet receptor coating, but with the best MK blacks out there and careful linearization you can make very nice work, and it will last longer than papers with the standard coatings because these beautiful inkjet coatings also attract contaminants from the environment than can cause premature staining. But be careful, many uncoated printmaking papers contain optical brightners that greatly reduce the longevity. Use natural arches or fabriano.
The other and probably most important issue with printing on uncoated papers like Arches is ink dot spread. The ink bleed reduces resolution . It is what it is. Some work requires the sharpest results possible, and other work might even look better on uncoated papers. I personally love the unique results they can give you. However, if your ink limits are done properly with the darkest black ink, it can go a long way to giving you a photographic quality result.
John
David,
I am using the ABW mode. For most papers (including Arches HP) I use the media type "watercolor paper-radiant white" and the "darker" setting in the ABW settings dialog.
I also add just a little bit of toning (H=V=6) for many not really bright white papers. The neutral setting is, to my eye, just a bit cool when printed on a slightly warm paper.
As you say, it will probably take a bit of experimentation, but that just adds to the fun!
--- Frank
;)
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Check Paul Roark's approach to work with uncoated Arches Paper. Another type but possibly a good compromise for the purpose. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Arches.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjqioS15aHnAhWRaVAKHa5XB4MQFjAKegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw14VN9uAYZt7jfEba7aLJQ2
Ernst, op de lei getypt.
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Excellent help, all.Many thanks.This will get me started.
For a long time I have been thinking about converting my beloved 7800 into a dedicated BW machine, perhaps with Piezographic inks. But the damn thing just keeps chugging along, making excellent color and monochrome prints with nary a clog, even with the sporadic use it gets. And a print head that is original - like 16-17 years. Perhaps when Epson kills the K inks I'll have to.
Best,
David
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Simply use inkjet fine art papers. i.e. Canson Infinity: Velin Museum Rag, Aquarelle Rag, PrintMaKing Rag. Hahnemuhle: Museum Etching, William Turner.
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Simply use inkjet fine art papers. i.e. Canson Infinity: Velin Museum Rag, Aquarelle Rag, PrintMaKing Rag. Hahnemuhle: Museum Etching, William Turner.
Not clear to me that those will work well with the weaving. I've found that coated materials are usually more fragile than uncoated ones.
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Not clear to me that those will work well with the weaving. I've found that coated materials are usually more fragile than uncoated ones.
OP here. Quite right, Jim. My wife tells me that the photographic-specific papers I use are too stiff for a proper weave.
Cheers.
David