Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Idololab on January 18, 2020, 04:04:29 am

Title: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on January 18, 2020, 04:04:29 am
Hi all
Has anybody out there used the SureColor P9570 printer to share impressions with us?
Thanks
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: mcbroomf on January 18, 2020, 07:10:45 am
I don't believe it's available yet (I have my eye on the 24" version once reviews come out)
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Dale Villeponteaux on January 18, 2020, 10:12:48 am
IT Supplies has them for sale.

Regards,
Dale
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Wayne Fox on January 19, 2020, 05:47:25 pm
I have one on order, certainly the printhead and speed are intriguing, but some other features I’m curious about and will review once it arrives.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on January 21, 2020, 03:56:08 am
"Inductive Media Roller System Reduces Paper Feed Error
• Assures accurate and consistent feed regardless of the weight of the media roll
• Consistent back-tension
Automatic, Simplified Media Loading Process
• Automatic loading process- easier for operator to load
• Reduced media skew"

This is what I am concerned more about. The actual "transport" system (on P9000 for example) isn't so good
and some delicate fine art papers are prone to scratches and many other problems.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on January 22, 2020, 04:12:21 am
Yesterday my frist handson with the scp7500, not a great success thusfar.

Limited to a luster pe-paper, due to time constraint and learning-curve. I have been using scp9000 for the last 4 years intensively. (and the scp20000). The controls on the printer and in the printer driver are quite different. And you need on your computer the Epson Media Installer as well.

Whether it is me as user or limitations in the software is still to be determined. The physical paper related controls like platen gap, paper thickness etc are no longer in the driver, online on the printer . Personally i find that better. But when you want a custom paper you must use Epson Media Installer. You cannot create a custom paper on the printer.  But in EMI one can only create a new paper title. Only edit then is to assign a icc profile to it. All other settings are to be done on the printer. And in EMI you cannot even see those settings.

I define paper sizes in the driver, like different lengths from 24” roll, but if you do a refresh in EMI all your paper sizes are wiped. This is a very serious showstopper for me.

Next testfase will also focus on fine art matte papers, and like Idolo I have my concerns. On the scp9000 i already modified the right black plastic of the paper- hold system, to prevent it from touching paper and leaving a line mark on the soft fine art papers during printing. (Wasted quite a bit of paper before I found the cause of these line marks)

Regarding icc profile i did not notice a significant increase in the profile volume, To be worked on.
The print speed is high, the resolution using Bart van de Wolf’s media test image show a resolution one can expect from a 300/600 ppi printer.
FInding optimal paper settings to maximize resolution is something to work on in next test day. Bart’s test image is a good tool in this, but the paper waste is significant as the minimum length from roll is now 279.4mm (on scp9000 it is 127mm)

Head alignment auto or manual, I get the impression that manual does a better job (as on the scp20000 by the way)

To be continued, a lot to test before continue with the purchase, for now that is on hold.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on January 23, 2020, 06:48:02 am
Thank you very much Jan for this first detailled report. Let's hope that the driver will be updated. We wait impatiently for your next report.

"On the scp9000 i already modified the right black plastic of the paper- hold system, to prevent it from touching paper and leaving a line mark on the soft fine art papers during printing."

I am very interested in this. Is it possible for you to describe what you have done? Printing on Hahnemühle's Baryta FB paper is a nightmare!
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on January 23, 2020, 07:09:45 pm
Yesterday my frist handson with the scp7500, not a great success thusfar.

Limited to a luster pe-paper, due to time constraint and learning-curve. I have been using scp9000 for the last 4 years intensively. (and the scp20000). The controls on the printer and in the printer driver are quite different. And you need on your computer the Epson Media Installer as well.

Whether it is me as user or limitations in the software is still to be determined. The physical paper related controls like platen gap, paper thickness etc are no longer in the driver, online on the printer . Personally i find that better. But when you want a custom paper you must use Epson Media Installer. You cannot create a custom paper on the printer.  But in EMI one can only create a new paper title. Only edit then is to assign a icc profile to it. All other settings are to be done on the printer. And in EMI you cannot even see those settings.

I define paper sizes in the driver, like different lengths from 24” roll, but if you do a refresh in EMI all your paper sizes are wiped. This is a very serious showstopper for me.

Next testfase will also focus on fine art matte papers, and like Idolo I have my concerns. On the scp9000 i already modified the right black plastic of the paper- hold system, to prevent it from touching paper and leaving a line mark on the soft fine art papers during printing. (Wasted quite a bit of paper before I found the cause of these line marks)

Regarding icc profile i did not notice a significant increase in the profile volume, To be worked on.
The print speed is high, the resolution using Bart van de Wolf’s media test image show a resolution one can expect from a 300/600 ppi printer.
FInding optimal paper settings to maximize resolution is something to work on in next test day. Bart’s test image is a good tool in this, but the paper waste is significant as the minimum length from roll is now 279.4mm (on scp9000 it is 127mm)

Head alignment auto or manual, I get the impression that manual does a better job (as on the scp20000 by the way)

To be continued, a lot to test before continue with the purchase, for now that is on hold.

I’m interested in the 7570 24” model and downloaded the User Manual.  I was pleasantly surprised to see almost identical driver layout / functionality to my SC P5000.   What you’re describing on the 44” model seems like a pretty radical departure.  Seems odd that there would be a significant difference between the 24 and 44” models.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on January 25, 2020, 04:58:41 am
I have no experience with the scp5000, but 4 years dayly experience with scp7000 and scp9000. And experienced with scp20000.
We found the custom paper create option on the scp7500 (scp7570 in the USA).
The current release of Epson Media Installer is something to stay away from. It wipes your own created paper sizes in the printer drives on your computer.
We are struggling to get an Epson fine art matte paper to profiel correctly. No idea about the cause yet. The fine art gloss went fine. The paper profile is about equal in volume to the scp7000/9000, with a slight increase in the blue / purple region.


Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on January 26, 2020, 06:45:10 am
Got the Fine Art paper to profile correctly. Turns out you really need to let the profile card dry overnight before measuring ;-)

The feed correction is interesting, as it will print two lines 500 mm apart, and you then enter the measured distance. Consumes more paper, but is quite accurate.

The head alignement pattern is also interesting, even complete it shows black lines, but watching it being  printed one sees color lines printed first then these are overprinted with black lines. It stille needs some fine-tuning to get the best alignement, but it is already quite close.


Paper thickness is entered with 0.01mm steps, as opposed to the 0.1mm steps in previous generation printers.

With Thick Fine Art Matte papers it does touch the plastic parts of the roll holding system. So some grinding is is needed to reduce the sticking out of an edge and a corner.

Once used to the menu structure of the printer it works fine.

I think i will go ahead with the purchase.

When Epson Media Installer bug is fixed it may be of interest also. For now it is not usable at all.

This week two more tests :
- This overprinting feature. No idea how it will look, but will see ;-)
- Head alignment is it stores per paper type or is is "global". This is important as Fine Art papers vary in thickness.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on January 27, 2020, 02:51:46 pm
I have no experience with the scp5000, but 4 years dayly experience with scp7000 and scp9000. And experienced with scp20000.
We found the custom paper create option on the scp7500 (scp7570 in the USA).
The current release of Epson Media Installer is something to stay away from. It wipes your own created paper sizes in the printer drives on your computer.
We are struggling to get an Epson fine art matte paper to profiel correctly. No idea about the cause yet. The fine art gloss went fine. The paper profile is about equal in volume to the scp7000/9000, with a slight increase in the blue / purple region.

Hi JRS,

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, if you DON'T install the Epson Media Installer, the printer driver works pretty much like your SC P 7000, in terms of options, menus, functionality, etc.?  That was my impression after reading the manual for the SC P 7570.

And, I'd love to have your feedback on how the sheet feed mechanism works on this new printer.  It is a separate path as I understand it, and straight through the printer.  Does the printer "hold" the printed sheet until you release it?  As opposed to just dropping it in the bin?

Appreciate your overall feedback / experience with this new model.  I'm about to pull the trigger and having real world impressions is very valuable.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on February 07, 2020, 09:33:12 am
Any news concerning print quality Jan, particularly in the blacks? And how good is the new transport system?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on February 08, 2020, 10:43:40 am
There is a significant thread on the Epson Large Format list about these new Epsons having serious issues cutting the thick matte rag media. They apparently are recommending not using the paper cutter and  cutting by hand! That would certainly be a deal breaker for me. My printers cut this media all day long and I certainly wouldn't buy a printer where you had to remove the roll for every print! If true this is just strange it seems to me. What are they thinking.

https://groups.io/g/EpsonWideFormat/topic/paper_cutter_blades_in_the/71036723?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,71036723

John

I agree that this would be a problem and a pain in the butt... but why would you have to remove the roll?  Just advance the paper, make a manual cut, and reset.  My current Epson printer works this way with the “manual cut” option.  I suspect that’s what is recommended here.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jim Kasson on February 08, 2020, 11:28:29 am
I agree that this would be a problem and a pain in the butt... but why would you have to remove the roll?  Just advance the paper, make a manual cut, and reset.  My current Epson printer works this way with the “manual cut” option.  I suspect that’s what is recommended here.

Rand

My 9800 has an accessory manual cutter installed. Is one available (or part of) the x570 Epson 24 and 44 inch printers? I'm assuming my 9800 cutter won't work.

Jim
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BrianWJH on February 08, 2020, 05:23:40 pm
There is a significant thread on the Epson Large Format list about these new Epsons having serious issues cutting the thick matte rag media. They apparently are recommending not using the paper cutter and  cutting by hand!

https://groups.io/g/EpsonWideFormat/topic/paper_cutter_blades_in_the/71036723?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,71036723

John

I've checked back as far as the Stylus Pro 7880-9880 and the user manuals state similiar warnings for each new model so it's not new information, below are some manual extracts as follows:


Epson Stylus Pro 7880-9880:

"The following media (and other similar materials) may not work with the built-in cutter:
•Fine art paper (including Epson Textured and UltraSmooth® Fine Art Paper)
•PremierArtTM Water Resistant Canvas for Epson
•Vinyl
•Matte board
•Backlight film
•Heavyweight polyester banner media
•DuPontTM Semigloss Proofing Paper"

Epson Stylus Pro 7890-9890, 7900-9900:

"The built-in cutter might not be able to cut some types of non-epson media"

SC-P10000-20000:

"Non-genuine Epson media types, such as those
shown below, may not be cut cleanly by the built-in
cutter. Furthermore, cutting the following media
types may damage or reduce the lifetime of the
built-in cutter.

• Fine art paper
• Canvas
• Vinyl
• Matte poster board
• Adhesive paper
• Banner media"

So like the above warnings this may be Epson being overly cautious as I'm sure many Epson wide format owners of previous models have certainly cut Fine art paper and canvases without any issue, naturally there will be dulling of the cutter blade with use, it's just normal wear and tear on a consumer replaceable part.

Brian.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: dgberg on February 08, 2020, 06:04:23 pm
That’s not being overly cautious that’s being confused. At least half of the consumers who buy these printers use these kinds of media constantly and they shouldn’t be expected to stand there with their scissors or matte knife when “fine art” rag paper editions are being done, or even for a single freaking print.

 I’ve printed hundreds and hundreds of 44 inch 310 gsm rolls on many Epson large formats over the years, and the other printer brands, without even having to change the blade for many years most of the time.

It seems like from those recent posts though, the new Sure Color line is not getting the job done.

And were not talking “ third party media” now. The Canson line now is being rebranded by Epson as “legacy” . The 310 gsm cotton media is not some specialty media.  For half the population, it’s our primary, if not only media being used, semi-gloss or matte.

I also would very much be concerned about head damage with the paper only being partially cut and flopping around in there. Not cool.

The answer may just be the Epson retrofitting with a better blade or cutting mechanism.

Now canvas is something else. It sure would be “professional” if we didn’t have to trim it by hand, but I’ve learned to live with that on all my printers.

John,
I am on my third 44" Epson and two of them only print canvas. The 9900 onboard cutter cuts the canvas like a hot knife through butter. I replaced the cutter on my 10 year old 9900 about a year ago as it was getting dull. I think I cut about 4000 canvas prints on that one machine alone before I replaced the cutter.
I cannot imagine anyone not using that cutter on canvas, it is that good.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BrianWJH on February 08, 2020, 06:12:31 pm
John, the cutter blade replacement for the new P7500/9500 series is the same part number as the previous Stylus Pro 7900/9900 and 7890/9890 models so unless they have changed the cutter drive mechanism in some way then you would expect the new machines to perform the same as the previous models.

Brian.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: langier on February 08, 2020, 07:21:48 pm
Similar experience as Dan Berg when in comes to cutting canvas and the 9900. The upgraded cutter was why I got mine the in first place in 2011. The project I bought the printer for was more than 600 canvas prints, main on using 44 inch media. When I got it, it was at least 2-3 years old when I bought it and have replaced the cutter once (a second-hand blade) along with a single service several years ago.

It's still running strong and still cutting canvas just fine.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 09, 2020, 02:44:24 am
Any news concerning print quality Jan, particularly in the blacks? And how good is the new transport system?
I have my SCP9500 installed and am busy between jobs to find optimums per paper. Regarding the blacks, on gloss media it appears blacker, I.e. measure Dmax of 2.6 instead of 2.4. On matte papers however it is slightly less that scp9000.
Some papers on the scp9000 (and before that on the 9900) I use water color radiant white as media type , on the scp9500 thiis mediatype has a different behaviour. So back to square one to find the right media type and settings per paper.

Loading cut sheet works fine, provided it is not cut from a roll. Then the curl will prevent you from loading it.
When loading a paper you also need to select a paper type, and you can also then adjust settings. This actually is ok with me, but had to get used to it.

Regarding cutting of papers, the scp9500 appears to cut with more force than the scp9000. No issues yet encountered on cutting.

One curious thing. When printing a measurement chart on Epson Premium Gloss Paper 250gsm, with the Epson provided profile, the measurement of the dark blues failed. I use xrite i1 pro2. this failed consistently.
I did not experience this phenomenon on matte papers. Will do some testing and profiling on fine art gloss coming week.

To be continued.



Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: dgberg on February 09, 2020, 08:16:29 am
Well if that is the case why is Epson telling customers in their literature not to cut canvas and “ fine art media”  with these machines ?  It’s all very funny. They should want to advertise that it is designed for that purpose.

As suggested by these various posts, some people have no problem, while others with new units have terrible results which can cause jams and head strikes. Maybe there is a factory adjustment that is or isn’t done correctly. But clearly Epson is aware of issues or they wouldn’t be telling people to cut this stuff by hand. All I know is I’ve never had an Epson that couldn’t cut thick papers normally.

I think it is entirely due to the dust it creates, not the cutting of substrates. Canvas and most fine art papers can make a fair amount of dust inside the printer. To keep those potential issues at bay they say don't cut them.
Except it cuts them just fine. (I am referring to the older models) As long as you keep after the internal bay cleanliness (Vacuum or wipe down the fine dust particles) you should be fine.
I would like to hear from someone cutting canvas on a regular basis with the new model. That would be a killer for me if I could not use the internal cutter on canvas.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on February 09, 2020, 11:10:28 am
No, what they are saying on the phone to customers is the cut might not be complete and will dull the blade. IF that is true why don’t they make professional blades? In the larger scheme of things it doesn’t seem that complicated. Personally I don’t cut canvas with my internal cutters, but I sure should be able to do so. Some people only use canvas with these printers.

 As mentioned before Epson and Canon would like you to purchase the automated take up reel which would be a good production solution if you didn’t have the very real risk of head clog banding occurring in the middle of a job on the Epson machines.

Here is what the manual on the newly released system:


Settings > Roll Paper Setup > Auto Cut Settings on the control panel or adjust the auto cut settings in the printer driver. The setting selected in the printer driver overrides the control panel setting.
Note: If you are using the optional Auto Take-up Reel, disable the auto cut setting in the printer driver and on the control panel.

Caution: Do not use the built-in cutter with these paper types or you may damage or dull the built-in cutter:
• Fine Art Paper
• Canvas
• Vinyl
• Matteposterboard • Adhesivepaper
• Bannermedia
When you print on these paper types, you need to disable the Auto Cut setting and cut the print manually. You can print cutting guidelines to help you.
Cutting Roll Paper Manually Printing Trim Lines
Parent topic: Roll Paper Handling Related topics
Using the Auto Take-up Reel
Cutting Roll Paper Manually
You can disable the Auto Cut option to k

I think it is entirely due to the dust it creates, not the cutting of substrates. Canvas and most fine art papers can make a fair amount of dust inside the printer. To keep those potential issues at bay they say don't cut them.
Except it cuts them just fine. (I am referring to the older models) As long as you keep after the internal bay cleanliness (Vacuum or wipe done the fine dust particles) you should be fine.
I would like to hear from someone cutting canvas on a regular basis with the new model. That would be a killer for me if I could not use the internal cutter on canvas.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Dan Wells on February 09, 2020, 10:34:31 pm
This seems pretty disappointing as an initial report - some driver issues and reduced gamut on some papers (why? I though it was eseentially the P7000 inkset with two extra channels - one adds violet and the other eliminates the PK/MK swap). The cutter issue is something that Epson's been saying forever, and photographers have been disregarding for just as long. These things are often (generally?) used by high-volume print shops - but even if you cut canvas all day long, every day, the worst thing that can happen is that you'll eventually blow through a cutter blade ($125)
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on February 10, 2020, 09:30:45 am

No that’s not correct.

The worse thing that can happen is the media flops around only partially cut causing head strikes and destroying the head.


- but even if you cut canvas all day long, every day, the worst thing that can happen is that you'll eventually blow through a cutter blade ($125)
[/quote]
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 10, 2020, 11:35:06 am
The cutting thing i neglect.
The reduced gamut issomething else.
Like i said, i need to find optima per paper type from square one. Today i measured some test prints on a matte Hahnemuhle paper, and found the max black to be at least equal to the scp9000.

The max black is just one point in a 3-dimensiomal gamut. The entire gamut and the transitions are actually more important.
The objective not colormanaged testprints is to find the optima in black- white and colour dimensions and transitions.


 
This seems pretty disappointing as an initial report - some driver issues and reduced gamut on some papers (why? I though it was eseentially the P7000 inkset with two extra channels - one adds violet and the other eliminates the PK/MK swap). The cutter issue is something that Epson's been saying forever, and photographers have been disregarding for just as long. These things are often (generally?) used by high-volume print shops - but even if you cut canvas all day long, every day, the worst thing that can happen is that you'll eventually blow through a cutter blade ($125)
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on February 10, 2020, 12:13:55 pm
The cutting thing i neglect.
The reduced gamut issomething else.
Like i said, i need to find optima per paper type from square one. Today i measured some test prints on a matte Hahnemuhle paper, and found the max black to be at least equal to the scp9000.

The max black is just one point in a 3-dimensiomal gamut. The entire gamut and the transitions are actually more important.
The objective not colormanaged testprints is to find the optima in black- white and colour dimensions and transitions.

Do not the 3rd party papers' handling instructions provide "media type" for their ICC profiles?  But I'm guessing what you might be saying is that the various 3rd party paper companies don't have handling instructions or ICC profiles for this printer as of now.  (I checked with Canson and they do not have ICC profiles yet for these printers.  I've emailed them to ask about when we might expect them.)  Is that what we're hearing?   You're making your own profiles, and making educated guesses re appropriate media type?

If any of this is the case, then making judgments about the printer's image quality seems premature at best.  Have you tried Epson's ICC profiles for any of their papers as a starting place to see what you think of the printer?  Seems like a good place to start, even if you then move on to your own paper selection and ICC profile creation. 

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 12, 2020, 12:18:26 pm
I tested the epson provided profile for Epson Premium Glosy Paper is wrong. The pure blue (0,0,255) is on the print brownish-black. Inquiry with others shows that others had problems as well and thus the Epson profiles are wrong. So even for standard available Epson papers one needs to do profiling.

I am testing with Hanhemuhle Photo Rag Bright White 310gsm, and this profiles shows an increased gamut in the area where the violet is probably active, see attached image:

Iam going to perform a factoiry reset and remove the Epson Media Installer, as that is nopt working well.
There are some quircks in the driver which are very annoying, i want to take the possible  influence of the Epson Media Installer out of these problems.
What i need is consistennt behaviour, and i do not have this right now. Everytime i open the driver to change paper size f.i. i do not want to check each and every setting for the correct value for starters.

So back to factory default and step by step take it from there.


Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 12, 2020, 12:29:35 pm
Do not the 3rd party papers' handling instructions provide "media type" for their ICC profiles?  But I'm guessing what you might be saying is that the various 3rd party paper companies don't have handling instructions or ICC profiles for this printer as of now.  (I checked with Canson and they do not have ICC profiles yet for these printers.  I've emailed them to ask about when we might expect them.)  Is that what we're hearing?   You're making your own profiles, and making educated guesses re appropriate media type?

If any of this is the case, then making judgments about the printer's image quality seems premature at best.  Have you tried Epson's ICC profiles for any of their papers as a starting place to see what you think of the printer?  Seems like a good place to start, even if you then move on to your own paper selection and ICC profile creation. 

Rand

Nope, non of the paper providers have published any thing regarding the new printers. Nor do i stick to those , i search for the best possible settings, and am doing that for 7+ years in a row now.

Also the Epson provided profiles are wrong, see my other post, so relying on paper proviers as an absolute is the wordt thing you can do. In the attached testprint (Epson Premium Glossy Paper plus Epson profided ICC profile ), the box circled in red should have been dark blue (0,0,255) it is actually brownish-black.
Not very smart of Epson, when launching a new generation printers to make such an error.

So no not exactly premature, actually i do share my findings with providers, even involved in Beta stages of papers.


Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on February 13, 2020, 12:25:10 pm
Nope, non of the paper providers have published any thing regarding the new printers. Nor do i stick to those , i search for the best possible settings, and am doing that for 7+ years in a row now.

Also the Epson provided profiles are wrong, see my other post, so relying on paper proviers as an absolute is the wordt thing you can do. In the attached testprint (Epson Premium Glossy Paper plus Epson profided ICC profile ), the box circled in red should have been dark blue (0,0,255) it is actually brownish-black.
Not very smart of Epson, when launching a new generation printers to make such an error.

So no not exactly premature, actually i do share my findings with providers, even involved in Beta stages of papers.

I continue to be interested in your ongoing testing / results.  I’m assuming you have the latest driver version?  And, have you contacted Epson for their input on the problems you’re having w/ their profiles being so obviously “off”...  I’d think they’d be particularly interested since your results so far are very poor advertising for their new top of the line printers.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 13, 2020, 02:04:59 pm
Thanks Rand. Yes findings are shared with the distributor, a gold partner of Epson, and i can say that for the Hahnemuhle fine art matte papers i have a found a good starting point.
The max black are like the scp9000 (DMax ~ 1.7 ) , the gamut is bigger. The transition from paper White to Black is fine.
Will do some more image prints tomorrow to see how these turn out . The Bill Atkinson test image looks fine.



Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 14, 2020, 11:53:50 am
A weird machine this new printer. Using the vfap for fine art matte  i now have made 2good looking profiles and almkst identical in gamut , black point of Lab-RGB Curve, yet one is made with color density set at minus 10% . Some gloss papers cannot handle the inkload at color density = 0 and need to be set at at least -10%
Really weird.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on February 14, 2020, 01:30:51 pm
A weird machine this new printer. Using the vfap for fine art matte  i now have made 2good looking profiles and almkst identical in gamut , black point of Lab-RGB Curve, yet one is made with color density set at minus 10% . Some gloss papers cannot handle the inkload at color density = 0 and need to be set at at least -10%
Really weird.

From all this "outlier" behavior you're experiencing, and from some insider information I have that I cannot reveal the source, it almost sounds to me as though the printer you received is defective in some way.  Have you considered that?  Finding more default parameters that don't work, than that do work, seems more than just "different from other models" to me.

Best of luck as you move forward.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 14, 2020, 04:29:01 pm
Yes it is a consideration that it may be a problem with this printer.
 I did a factory reset earlier this week and removed the Epson media Installer on my test computer. The quircky behaviour of the driver is much less, and not a hindrance anymore.

To be continued
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 16, 2020, 08:11:44 am
Looking at my posts in this thread i can believe that others get the feeling i have something against Epson printers. The contrary is true, i am using Epson printers now for more than 7 years: StylusPro4900, 9900, SCP8000, 7000, 9000 , and yes also experience with Canon and HP LFP's as well as the SCP20000.

I have replaced 2 of my printers (a SCP7000 and a SCP9000) while still perfectly printing after 4 years of daily use with the new SCP9500.
I firmly believe the new SCP7500/9500 are very good printers carrying the positive experiences of the previous printers including the SCP10000/20000. I believe it is a very good piece of re-engineering.


My drive is to bring digital art to life in unique fine art prints, and therefore focus on getting the maximum print quality for each of the many papers i carry in my print studio.

So i am searching for the maximum print quality of this new printer of Epson.

It took me some time to get to now the operation of this printer and are now quite happy with operating the printer.
Loading paper works nice, the paper type related parameters are on the printer, and no longer in de driver, which i like very much.
In the driver you can choose " Use Printer Settings"  or media paper type to override the active media type set on the printer and that works fine.
No more matte/gloss black switching of course ;-)

Also where people work, sometimes mistakers or errors are made or something is unclear for the user of such fine machines. This is a fact of life and Espon not excluded. Yes those points i find i share with the Epson partner who delivers my printers, so it is shared with Epson or ppaer-manufactures.

This is also where LuLa as forum comes into play, where one can share experiences/questions to the benefit of many.

And yes there is a error in the standard epson profiles for the premium  (gloss, luster, etc) papers, as you can see in the screencopies of ColorTinkPro:

So while this will be fixed by Epson at some point in the future, no doubt, but for now it is a issue. (i use the latest available firmware and driver(W10))
The results shown are prints of the same testchart, printed with Lightroom, using 3 different profiles while all other setting were kept the same:
the std epson profiles for Semi-Gloss 250 and Luster 260, and my own profile for the Semi-gloss paper.





Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: mikev1 on February 16, 2020, 11:15:10 am
I appreciate you sharing your experience so far.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on February 18, 2020, 06:19:00 am
Thanks for the valuable information Jan! I am concerned about the new Media Roller System and how it works with sensitive  Glossy Fine Art media. Particularly I wish to know if some problems with scratches or roller marks in the blacks are eliminated.
Regards
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: budjames on February 18, 2020, 07:04:39 am
The new Epson P7570 looks great, especially the in-line switching of blacks without wasting any ink or time. However, my printing volume is low as I'm a hobbyist. My five year old Epson P800 can sit idle for many weeks yet it can print without any print head clogging, It's been great, however, I would like to be able to print to 24" wide and have the larger ink cartridges to reduce costs longterm.

I really want a new P800 replacement with the new ink set and inline black in switching capabilities. I can live with the 17" maximum width limitation of the current P800 if the replacement model has these two features. Perhaps a P800 replacement is on the way as the current model is over 5 years old. The 3880 was replaced with the P800 about 5 years after the 3880's introduction.

I still very interested in hearing how the P7570 print quality improves on the previous ink set models and what is considered the minimum usage to keep the unit "healthy".

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on February 19, 2020, 06:15:32 pm
My Epson SC P 7570 is on the truck on its way to my place.  I'll be interested to see if I experience any hiccups along the way in getting it set up and tested.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jim Kasson on February 19, 2020, 06:51:27 pm
My Epson SC P 7570 is on the truck on its way to my place.  I'll be interested to see if I experience any hiccups along the way in getting it set up and tested.

Rand

Good luck. Keep us posted, please.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 20, 2020, 11:03:21 am
Thanks for the valuable information Jan! I am concerned about the new Media Roller System and how it works with sensitive  Glossy Fine Art media. Particularly I wish to know if some problems with scratches or roller marks in the blacks are eliminated.
Regards
What scratches or roller marks are you referring to ? Can you show photos of such marks?

Thusfar i did not really test with a full roll of fine art gloss.

First this over inking issue needs to be solved. Reported to Epson , waiting for the technician.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 20, 2020, 11:06:51 am
My Epson SC P 7570 is on the truck on its way to my place.  I'll be interested to see if I experience any hiccups along the way in getting it set up and tested.

Rand
Fingers crossed, this is ment in a positive sense.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on February 20, 2020, 04:40:16 pm
Good luck. Keep us posted, please.

Jim,

Thanks!  Will do . . .

JRSmit,  Thank you, too!

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 21, 2020, 02:49:29 pm
Damn, not really an improvement. I downloaded the new firmware Version: LL07K2 of Februari 17, but not really an improvement for the over-inking issue i have.
Still waiting for the technician of Epson.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 24, 2020, 10:22:33 am
Contact with Epson NL today, is escalated to level 2 service. Will send all findings to Epson so the engineers can determine what is the cause. I find this approach a proper one.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on February 28, 2020, 10:51:27 am
What scratches or roller marks are you referring to ? Can you show photos of such marks?

This is a common problem with me and Epson 9900 and P9000 on sensitive Fine Art media like Hahnemuehle BarytaFb. Small scratches occur, as I understand, from a slight touch of the paper in the inner part of the printer. Sometimes, rollers cause small zones with very slightly different density that you can see in areas with even dark tones. I do not have something to show at this moment and it is difficult to be seen on a photo of a print, but you can see it on the print. Have you noticed similar problems to P9500? Also, would it be too much if I asked you to send me a photo of the inner part of your printer, related to the paper path? Thank you very much.
Regards
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on February 28, 2020, 07:28:31 pm
My Epson SC P 7570 24" printer arrived today.  I purchased through B&H using their PayBoo card and saved the sales tax here in CA.  What is nice about this is that the sales tax is "paid" but then refunded, so that I'm not obligated to report it on my tax returns as tax not paid to CA.  Second, re B&H, the shipping was free via ABF shipping.  Since I'm a residential address I was concerned about "tail gate" fees, etc., to just get it to the ground.  Well, I should not have worried.  Turns out it is free "white glove" shipping service and not only did the shipper get it down off the semi-truck, they brought the palleted printer (it's BIG) right to and through my front door to the area I'd cleared for setting it up.  So, kudos to both B&H and ABF.  Could not have gone smoother.

I had four friends come over to help.  The packaging was excellent and the instructions had their own little "port door" in the box so as to get them out first.  Nice thinking Epson.  The legs/wheels/stand goes together with six allen bolts.  Easy peasy.  Then following very carefully the instructions on how to lift it and where everyone should place their hands, four of us lifted it up, and one of us was on the ground guiding the locator pins into the bottom of the printer.  Two wing-bolts w/ washers  and it was all assembled.  Removed all the packing / tape, etc., and rolled it into my little studio/office.  Fit perfectly.  The set-up instructions are complete, and easy to follow.

I got the ink carts loaded, the latest firmware and driver package installed without incident.  Loaded a roll of Epson Legacy Baryta.  Nice loading sysstem.  I then did a nozzle check and a bi-directional head alignment successfully.  The starter carts on this printer are even "more" "starter-ish" than other Epsons I've owned.  After initial load, two of the carts are already showing the status monitors "conservative" "low ink" warning.  So, ordered those two carts for starters.  One of the nice things about this printer is that carts are available in three sizes, 150 ml, 220 ml, and 350 ml.  For a relatively low volume printer such as am I, it's nice to be able to put the smaller ones in there - even though the price per ml is higher, I still prefer not having the carts in there for "too long" after their expiry dates.  And if I find I'm using some colors faster than the others, I can size appropriately.

I then printed two standard print evaluation files, using OEM Epson ICC profile for Legacy Baryta that came in the driver package.  The prints looked like they should on my 4700k Solux illuminated magnetic wall, at the screen to print settings I've been using w/ my SC P 5000 printer / NEC PA 302w SVII.  NICE, though what I expected.

Excuse the crappy iPhone photos, color balance is miserable and I didn't bother to mess w/ these re trying to make them look "right."

On the photo below, ignore the SC P 20000 tag on the end of the paper roll coming out of the printer.  I used a remainder partial roll of Legacy Baryta that I'd used in a P 20000 printer that I have access to.  The markings are from the "keep track of paper used" settings.  The SC P 7570 "recognized" and used that info in its tracking of this roll, by the way.  Nice.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-VtD3XHf/0/7a4014a4/L/i-VtD3XHf-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-8pBd7VN/0/bb77d1f0/L/i-8pBd7VN-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-zhmPg99/0/d494e75a/L/i-zhmPg99-L.jpg)


That's as far as I got for today - done in.  Looking good so far though.  More testing tomorrow.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jim Kasson on February 28, 2020, 11:22:41 pm
Thanks, Rand.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on February 29, 2020, 03:13:55 am
Best wishes!!!
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 29, 2020, 03:58:12 am
Hi Rand, great sofar. :D

That paper, a Schoeller paper sold under different labels, does not visibly (bleeding etc) show the overinking problem, but the test on the grey wedge (varying L value, a and b value 0), show a not so smooth curve from white to black, as compared to the SCP9000 f.i. . Is also mentioned in my findings report sent to Epson.

Would like to see your findings on that.

Operating the printer is fine, what I particularly like is the option in the driver ‘use printer settings’, in short UPS.
Especially if you have defined custom papers, or altered f.i. the platen suction during the paper load procedure.

 There is a ‘but’ however. The paper load process of the printer has to be completely done, else UPS defaults to EPLPP260, and some low level of print quality. At least in my set up. A weird thing for which I hope it will be addressed in a future release. You can only see that it indeed uses your selected custom paper in the form that pops up on your computer at the start of the print, and in the message window is says ‘custom paper’. Given its speed, that form is there only a short time 😎
Also saving  this printer driver setting, will default to the standard media type you used in your custom paper. Neglecting all your custom settings like paper thickness, etc . Again something I hope Epson will fix in future release.
All in all, if the overinking is solved, it will be a fine printer to use in production situation like in my print studio.

Looking forward to your experiences with the printer 😀


Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 29, 2020, 04:26:39 am
What scratches or roller marks are you referring to ? Can you show photos of such marks?

This is a common problem with me and Epson 9900 and P9000 on sensitive Fine Art media like Hahnemuehle BarytaFb. Small scratches occur, as I understand, from a slight touch of the paper in the inner part of the printer. Sometimes, rollers cause small zones with very slightly different density that you can see in areas with even dark tones. I do not have something to show at this moment and it is difficult to be seen on a photo of a print, but you can see it on the print. Have you noticed similar problems to P9500? Also, would it be too much if I asked you to send me a photo of the inner part of your printer, related to the paper path? Thank you very much.
Regards
Resending my response as it got lost in the digital space ;-)
I only in very few occasions experienced small scratches in prints. But now and then do get white spots because some dust particle or small lint sticks to the paper surface and falls of after printing.
This can be already on the roll , but to prevent it getting there from my printers I regularly clean the printer inside and outside with what we know here as swiffer cloths ,see photo.
The plastic part that causes a linear mark on the soft texture of papers is shown i na photo. After sanding away that particular edge and endpoint, it no longer happens.
For some fine art papers, like the canson platine, or Epson legacy platine, the papers itself becomes very soft and pliable because of the ink fluid, and then the ridges on the platen causes quite visible linear marks in the paper. I reduce the platen suction to low value to avoid this.
I have not experienced markings from the  rollers. But paper thickness determines the pressure, have you tried to resolve it by increasing the paper thickness setting?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on February 29, 2020, 09:28:38 am
Hi Rand, great sofar. :D

That paper, a Schoeller paper sold under different labels, does not visibly (bleeding etc) show the overinking problem, but the test on the grey wedge (varying L value, a and b value 0), show a not so smooth curve from white to black, as compared to the SCP9000 f.i. . Is also mentioned in my findings report sent to Epson.

Would like to see your findings on that.

Operating the printer is fine, what I particularly like is the option in the driver ‘use printer settings’, in short UPS.
Especially if you have defined custom papers, or altered f.i. the platen suction during the paper load procedure.

 There is a ‘but’ however. The paper load process of the printer has to be completely done, else UPS defaults to EPLPP260, and some low level of print quality. At least in my set up. A weird thing for which I hope it will be addressed in a future release. You can only see that it indeed uses your selected custom paper in the form that pops up on your computer at the start of the print, and in the message window is says ‘custom paper’. Given its speed, that form is there only a short time 😎
Also saving  this printer driver setting, will default to the standard media type you used in your custom paper. Neglecting all your custom settings like paper thickness, etc . Again something I hope Epson will fix in future release.
All in all, if the overinking is solved, it will be a fine printer to use in production situation like in my print studio.

Looking forward to your experiences with the printer 😀

Thanks.   That’s the only “problem” that I am encountering so far.  With cut sheet paper there seems to be a “war” between the driver and the printer.  It ends up scaling the images in strange ways.  I printed an image that is 21” x 14” laid out in the Lighroom Print module (as I always do) on a 17x22” sheet.  It printed somewhat off set, and it measured 20” x 14” - it actually reproportioned the image!   I’m hoping your comment about “use printer settings” solves this issue.  But is there a way to do the opposite and have the driver in complete control over the printer’s paper settings?   

It is working fine with roll papers.   

As to image quality, the Epson OEM ICC profile for Ultra Premium Luster is awful (as usual - that’s been my experience) but their ICC profiles for Legacy Baryta and Legacy Platine (the only other papers I’ve tested with so far) seem decent.  Once I get my sheet paper issue resolved I’ll print targets and have custom ICC profiles made for these to papers.  (I don’t use premium luster so I don’t care about that one).   I don’t have the measuring equipment that you do, so my evaluation so far is “by eye” and in direct comparison to prints made on my SC P5000 printer with custom profiles that I am completely satisfied with.  So far, the 7570 is clearly (if subtly) superior in print quality.  And the black overcoat option is significant on some images.  It produces what “looks like” an expanded depth / gamut to the whole image.

I’d appreciate any additional insight re the “printer paper settings versus driver paper settings” that you might have.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 29, 2020, 10:41:21 am
Good to read your findings.

Regrding paper settings, the physical aspects (thickness, platen gap, feed, etc) is limited to the printer. With previous generations it was also in the driver, but only for Epson provided Media types as selected media type on the printer, if you made a custom paper on the printer, and select that as the media type when loading paper, that type overrides whatever on the physical aspects you set in the driver.
So now all of that is in the printer, at least it is now unambigious.

With rescaling in Lightroom i have not experienced that i must say. But when i will start printing again on my scp9500 i will of course check that. Could be that somehow also the sheet size was overridden?

What also could be the case i found that when you set your parameters in the driver, do ok, etc and then re-open the driver, your parameters are replaced by some default values. I want to run a screen copy program during the use of the printer driver to create a video and to see when this occurs, not always, but it can catch you by surprise.

Regarding the print-quality, what settings do you use on the 5000 and on the 7570? It should not be that the print-quality of the 5000 is less  (slightly as i  understand from your post) than the 7570.




Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on March 01, 2020, 02:12:13 pm
PROBLEM SOLVED

All it took was a simple delete and reinstall of the printer driver and all is well.  Image placement, exact image size, and scaling are all now perfect. 

I made a test print on Legacy Fibre, just for fun, and LOVE that it doesn't "say anything" but just uses MK ink channel on its own. 

Another good thing, given Jan's comments about the paper settings being controlled from the "printer side" for thing like caliper, platen gap, suction, etc. AND especially his comment about the driver resetting itself to a very low default resolution w/o warning or telling you, IS THAT LIGHTROOM'S PRINT TEMPLATES WHEN CREATED WITH YOUR DESIRED PARAMETERS WORK AS THEY SHOULD.  So for those, like me, who have lots of standard, paper-size-margins-orientation-print quality, etc. and use LR Templates to record and store this info... the silly behavior of the printer driver to reset itself isn't an issue.   I "will" however go through all the printer properties dialog after invoking a Template for the next few weeks just to satisfy myself that all is working as I expect.

All I have to do now is get my non-color managed printed targets in the mail for some custom ICC profiles.

Now that I have the layout / scaling weirdness sorted out, I'm LOVING this thing.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 02, 2020, 08:07:16 am
What scratches or roller marks are you referring to ? Can you show photos of such marks?

This is a common problem with me and Epson 9900 and P9000 on sensitive Fine Art media like Hahnemuehle BarytaFb. Small scratches occur, as I understand, from a slight touch of the paper in the inner part of the printer. Sometimes, rollers cause small zones with very slightly different density that you can see in areas with even dark tones. I do not have something to show at this moment and it is difficult to be seen on a photo of a print, but you can see it on the print. Have you noticed similar problems to P9500? Also, would it be too much if I asked you to send me a photo of the inner part of your printer, related to the paper path? Thank you very much.
Regards

George, in addition to my earlier post as a reply, what can be a cause of small/short scratches are the small rollers on the under-edge (where also the cutter access is), when the paper curls (vertical) because of the wet ink, or curls horizontal because it is stiff and comes from a roll. It then can touch one of the small rollers and cause a scratch, while the ink is still very soft then. May be far-fetched, but something to check.

Hi
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on March 02, 2020, 06:54:52 pm
PROBLEM SOLVED

All it took was a simple delete and reinstall of the printer driver and all is well.  Image placement, exact image size, and scaling are all now perfect. 


Rand

AU CONTRAIRE!  I started having the scaling problem again this morning, in LR, so I tested printing out of Photoshop, too, just in case it was a LR/Printer/Driver "thing."   And I "think" I have it figured out / solved.  And JRSmit alluded to it, but I didn't tumble to what he meant.  OK, this printer is "different" from other Epson printers.  Several paper adjustments (platen gap, thickness) no longer appear in the driver - only in the printer's menu.  When loading the paper in the printer it walks you through paper size, type, and provides sub menu opportunities for selecting platen gap, thickness, suction, and paper feed offset.  AND THE TRICK IS (to prevent the weird image offset and scaling issue) THAT IN THE DRIVER, IN THE DROP DOWN FOR PAPER TYPE, THERE IS A SETTING AT THE TOP THAT SAYS "USE PRINTER SETTINGS." (UPS)   After burning up a lot of paper and ink, (the manual is useless in this regard) I finally used the UPS option in the driver and the prints were properly printed via the LR print module.  I'm still not getting a full "print preview" - just an image of the lower left corner of the image showing borders and where the image "starts" relative to those borders (I don't like that).  But prints are coming out correctly laid out on the paper and the actual image size on the paper is spot on, w/o any printer induced scaling happening.  I read through the printer user manual several times before even receiving the printer and saw nothing to indicate that this is apparently 'necessary' in order for the driver and printer not to get into a urinating contest.   You still set paper size (even though that's redundant w/ printer settings) and orientation in the driver, along with resolution, high speed on/off, etc. 

So, that's where I am at the moment.  If there was justice in the world, Epson would replace the paper and ink I wasted due to what I consider to be really poor documentation / explication of "how this all works" when printing through LR / PS (and perhaps other applications).   I'm still nervous, and will keep testing once my ink resupply arrives tomorrow.

And just for completeness, I'm printing out of LR / PS the latest versions from the cloud subscription, and I'm on a Windows 10, Puget Systems PC with plenty of capability.

Rand

PS - In the midst of all this sorting out, once I had it working as it should, I printed an image w/ a chrome sculpture, dark water, deep shadows, and lots of mid tones as well.  I printed the carefully soft proofed file twice.  Once normally, and once w/ the new "black overcoat" (BO) option checked in the driver.  It makes a significant difference.  The BO print has significantly more "apparent Dmax and visual depth" - and "seems like" what I'm seeing is expanded tonal range.  So, kudos to Epson for this advance in technology.  I'm also seeing little to zero gloss differential in prints I've made so far, even viewing from oblique angles.  Might be my imagination, but I don't think so.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 03, 2020, 10:45:44 am
Yes, UPS is a neat thing.  The only issue there is that if you save the settings in the driver, it will switch to the media-type used in your custom paper, thus neglecting any gap or other settings you made in the printer for given custom paper.

And yes, it would be great if Epson would compensate for the ink and paper wasted.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on March 03, 2020, 01:25:20 pm
AU CONTRAIRE!  I started having the scaling problem again this morning, in LR, so I tested printing out of Photoshop, too, just in case it was a LR/Printer/Driver "thing."   And I "think" I have it figured out / solved.  And JRSmit alluded to it, but I didn't tumble to what he meant.  OK, this printer is "different" from other Epson printers.  Several paper adjustments (platen gap, thickness) no longer appear in the driver - only in the printer's menu.  When loading the paper in the printer it walks you through paper size, type, and provides sub menu opportunities for selecting platen gap, thickness, suction, and paper feed offset.  AND THE TRICK IS (to prevent the weird image offset and scaling issue) THAT IN THE DRIVER, IN THE DROP DOWN FOR PAPER TYPE, THERE IS A SETTING AT THE TOP THAT SAYS "USE PRINTER SETTINGS." (UPS)   After burning up a lot of paper and ink, (the manual is useless in this regard) I finally used the UPS option in the driver and the prints were properly printed via the LR print module.  I'm still not getting a full "print preview" - just an image of the lower left corner of the image showing borders and where the image "starts" relative to those borders (I don't like that).  But prints are coming out correctly laid out on the paper and the actual image size on the paper is spot on, w/o any printer induced scaling happening.  I read through the printer user manual several times before even receiving the printer and saw nothing to indicate that this is apparently 'necessary' in order for the driver and printer not to get into a urinating contest.   You still set paper size (even though that's redundant w/ printer settings) and orientation in the driver, along with resolution, high speed on/off, etc. 

So, that's where I am at the moment.  If there was justice in the world, Epson would replace the paper and ink I wasted due to what I consider to be really poor documentation / explication of "how this all works" when printing through LR / PS (and perhaps other applications).   I'm still nervous, and will keep testing once my ink resupply arrives tomorrow.

And just for completeness, I'm printing out of LR / PS the latest versions from the cloud subscription, and I'm on a Windows 10, Puget Systems PC with plenty of capability.

Rand


ONGOING SAGA:

All is not well in 7570 land.  I have chased the weirdness down a bit - but it's still there. 

First, I got up this morning and did a software check, and lo and behold there was another firmware update for the 7570.  So, I installed it - naively hoping that it was "the cure."  No joy.

OK, here's the ongoing issue.  Parameters: printing out of LR on PC, latest version LR Classic from cloud subscription.  Using Epson Legacy Baryta.  One issue was/is that sometimes the Print Preview shows the "whole image laid out" (as is normal for all my printing from other printers - currently P 600 and P5000), and sometimes it only shows a corner of the image.  None of the parameters in the Print Preview window have any effect on this.  It is completely random.  And this is not directly related to the real problem - so just a "notation" at this point perhaps indicating a buggy driver.  The REAL problem was/is that sometimes the printer both "misplaces" the image by starting to print a good 2" farther into the sheet than it should based on how it's laid out in LR print module.  AND, sometimes the resulting image is "compressed" on the long edge.  In other words, if the image is supposed to be 12x18 on a 13x19" sheet, it comes out 12x17" but the "whole image" is there, just compressed on the long dimension.  Nuts, right?  But wait, there's more!  Sometimes, with exactly the same parameters in printer/driver it will print offset but the right aspect ratio.  Go figure.  AND HERE'S THE REAL KICKER:  It only does this on image files that are in portrait orientation.  I even tried rotating the image in LR Library module and printing it landscape.  No joy.  I tried leaving it as a portrait orientation image in LR and printing in landscape mode w/ "rotate to fit" checked.  No joy.  I tried it on 17x22" paper... same issue, just larger and more expensive wasted paper and ink.  On image files that are landscape in orientation, and printed "in landscape" orientation in LR, there's no issue.  That's one of the reasons I was chasing my tail thinking, "It's fixed, no it's not, yes it is... "  It took a while for it to dawn on me what was happening.  I started keeping notes, and writing all the parameters on the edge of the prints.

And, if you've been following this saga, it also doesn't matter whether I use the new "USE PRINTER SETTINGS" in the driver, or use the actual media type in the driver that corresponds to what is set in the printer itself.  In this case, Legacy Baryta.

Another data point.  On page 100 in the user manual it shows the usual list of "paper config" items, color density, drying time, paper feed adj., paper suction, paper thickness, platen gap as "selectable" within the driver.  BUT, in the driver when you select paper config, you only get a small pop-up window that only has the color density slider.  So, for one thing, the manual and the driver are out of sync.

I have a call in to Epson Professional Tech Support.  The first representative that I spoke with was having trouble with his computer and we had to abandon the session.  They're going to call me back.

My preliminary thinking is that either "my sample" of the printer has some kind of electronic schizophrenia (and needs to be replaced), or the Windows driver (at least) and/or the printer firmware is wonky - at least as pertains to printing from the latest versions of LR Classic and Photoshop.

More later after I do have a session with Tech Support. 

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 03, 2020, 03:36:06 pm
As i normally never use preview, i got curious about Rand's struggle. So i did a simpele test. White in LR-Claadic i checked the preview box in the driver and then tool a saved print-job and pushed the print button. In the preview it assumes a 44" roll is loaded, and on the roll it shows the print job in exact dimensions.
I first did this with no paper loaded. Then repeated this with a A4 paper loaded. It made no difference. The preview mentioned 'custom paper' in both cases. Which is weird as when no paper is loaded there is no paper selected in the printer.
Note, the print-job was run this afternoon with excactly the result as specified in the print-job.
A weird thing this preview.

Typo's corrected.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 04, 2020, 04:33:07 am
Following up on Rand’s request to test the Preview function of the SC-P7500/9500 I did test the Preview option as well.

In the attached PDF you can find an elaboration of the test. But the conclusion is straightforward:

Conclusion:
The Preview function in the Epson printer software for the SC-P9500 (7570-9570) sucks.
I tested this because Rand stumbled on it. Normally I do not use Preview, as it has no added value for me in my Print-studio, using Lightroom-Classic as main printing software.

The Preview  mentions 3 sizes: Document Size, Output Size and Paper size.
Looking at the printer panel it says super A3 (=13x19”) and that is what I had chosen when loading a sheet of paper.
Once loaded, and then in the driver choose “Use Printer Settings” , it reads the settings on the printer correctly: see the 2 screenshots on Custom Media.
Looking in the driver I find: Size (on first panel, but suggests it as Paper Size as it is in the Paper sub-panel) , Document Size (on properties panel, in Paper Settings sub-panel, no clue of relation to settings in Paper sub-panel), and  Paper Size & Output Size (on Layout panel, again what is what now).
The Preview adds on its own a dimension for paper size, no clue as to where it comes from.
When rotated to Landscape in Driver, in essence a 90 degree rotation, it rotates the preview with 180 degrees, still with wrong paper size.

How complex can one make this, at least Epson succeeded in that, and in doing so also messed up the Preview function.

For me the following makes sense:
•   Paper size: the size of the sheet of paper , whether cut from roll or loaded as a sheet, this is a given, based on the chosen source for paper: sheet or roll, and in case of roll the setting of the length,  regardless of document size.
•   Document size: for a given file,  the size to print it as specified in the print job.
•   Output size: document size, scaled to whatever setting in the Driver.
•   Centering option: the placement of the file with given size(i.e.  Document size or Output size) on the sheet of paper, i.e. the Paper size.

Let’s see what Epson makes of it.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 04, 2020, 05:30:29 am
So i tried again, nothing changed, other than i did test on SCP9000 ,then again on the SCP9500, now the preview shows the size and layout correctly, be it upside-down. Paper-size value is empty.
Weird, as if it does not clear variables correctly, but only after some unknown user-action it clears this.
Weird.

Just returned to my print-office and tested the preview again, found in the menu a function "flip preview vertically" , now it looks ok. But then also saw function 'show output size frame', this gives a thin grey band around the edges which is in its size not correct. See second image, where the printview of LR and the Preview is shown. Note: no paper loaded in printer in this case.

Addition, i tested with the following settings, paper loaded in printer with A4 size selected, and media type WCRW ; in driver i choose UPS and paper size super A3. Then push print and i got a Preview, that is using the paper size setting of the Printer. See capture3.png

Interesting, so i removed the paper and loaded a super A3 in the printer and  entered also super A3 as papersize, with WCRW as media-type. Note : in the driver i choose EPSGPP250 as media-type. The preview now shows a superA3 size, but with WCRW as media-type. The print is also actually done with WCRW. So i loaded a new sheet, same settings on printer, did not change setting on driver, now the preview shows EPSGPP250 as media-type, and the print is indeed what it should be. This leaves me wondering, and getting annoyed now.


Seems to work sort of, but still no clue as to why yesterday evening it was 'thinking' i had a 44" roll loaded yet it was a A4 sheet and registered as such, this morning a weird and small paper-size in preview, and now apparently shows the correct preview be it that the output size frame is wrong. Or did do a print with the wrong media-type and then second time with the right media-type.


Still weird, and it becomes annoying. It basically means for every print-job, i have to check literally every setting before sending it to the printer, and then still.




Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on March 05, 2020, 02:09:52 am
Quick update on my situation.  I spent the better part of the day with Epson Technical Support.  They had control of my computer and we ran multiple tests of the printer.  They also provided a stand-alone driver download in hope of that solving the problem.  No joy.  By the end of the day they had a good, documented, view of what’s going on that I’ve described above.  One of the most maddening things is that none of the driver settings are “sticky” in a dependable way.  About 3/4 of the time I go into the driver settings to confirm what I have set up, it has reverted to some low resolution default settings.  This is completely unacceptable and makes a dependable work flow impossible.  The situation is now going to up the food chain at Epson and they’ve promised to get back to me soon.  As of now, I have a 4K dollar, 240 pound door stop.  LOL

I was very pleased with the tech representative.  She was competent, a good listener, and thorough in her approach to assessing the issue.  So, no complaints re Epson’s customer service - it has been excellent and the representative all one could ask for in a competent professional.  I look forward to resolution of the issue and am confident that they are taking this seriously.  Sometimes being on the bleeding edge of new technology puts one in the “tester” category and one would wish that things were better sorted on release of a new product.  But it is what it is.  I was ready to buy a 24” printer and almost bought a P7000.  I’m still glad I waited for this new model.  The few “successful” prints I’ve made are beautiful, the “black overcoat” makes a real enhancement.  And the general operation of the printer is very nice.  Once it is sorted out, I’m sure I’ll be very happy with it.

I’ll report more as things move forward.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 05, 2020, 08:24:59 am
My doorstop is even bigger and heavier 😎😆
Anyhow i concur with your view on the printer .

Let see what Epson comes up with. I do hope very soon, as it is seriously hindering my production capacity.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on March 08, 2020, 01:23:21 pm
UPDATE:

Well, since the roll paper print layout seemed to be working OK, I decided to make a print at 22.5x30” on Epson Legacy Baryta roll paper.  Using the printer’s default settings for Legacy Baryta, I experienced the same over-inking (and in my case head strikes from paper swelling) that JRSmit has been talking about on his 9570.  I even set the platen gap to 2.1 (not good for print quality) and still experienced head strikes.

THIS PRINTER IS NOT READY FOR PRIME-TIME AND EPSON NEEDS TO FIX IT.

To date, I’ve wasted about $250 worth of paper and ink all due to the printer’s faults.

Rand

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 09, 2020, 03:11:03 am
+1, and i Just got feedback about another scp9500 having the same problem.

A serious issue, thusfar had cost me (and Rand and others )a lot of money in ink, paper, time and frustration. This was not what i expected from Epson. About time to consider legal actions.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on March 09, 2020, 01:00:42 pm
They rushed it to market. But why? It’s not like Canon is so innovative right now or HP so popular that they should be that worried.

I mean they have the P10k, P 8k, P 9k...and the smaller ones. They are acting they are Apple or something. I get dizzy just trying to keep up with them all. They’ve got to keep all the software up to date on Mac and pc, keep up with all the inks, train the techs. It’s lot for them to maintain globally. Too many printers.


+1, and i Just got feedback about another scp9500 having the same problem.

A serious issue, thusfar had cost me (and Rand and others )a lot of money in ink, paper, time and frustration. This was not what i expected from Epson. About time to consider legal actions.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on March 09, 2020, 10:40:58 pm
They rushed it to market. But why? It’s not like Canon is so innovative right now or HP so popular that they should be that worried.

I mean they have the P10k, P 8k, P 9k...and the smaller ones. They are acting they are Apple or something. I get dizzy just trying to keep up with them all. They’ve got to keep all the software up to date on Mac and pc, keep up with all the inks, train the techs. It’s lot for them to maintain globally. Too many printers.

I don’t have the feeling it was “rushed.”  I just think they missed something, or something went amiss, in the final configuration of units being prepared for shipping.  It’s frustrating in the extreme, for sure.  But though it makes me nuts, I’m sure it will get sorted out.  As to “too many printers,” I’m not really qualified to speak to that.  But I can say that this printer represents a real step forward for Epson.  The color gamut, the separate MK / PK lines, the very nice way cut sheets load, the “black overcoat” feature - these are all VERY NICE and very valuable, I think.  Epson just needs to jump on the issues with the firmware / driver (or whatever it is) ASAP so that we early adopters can legitimately sing its praises.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: dgberg on March 10, 2020, 12:12:26 pm
For someone with only one wide format printer the P9570 may be the ticket. The items you list make perfect sense.
I will be in the market very soon for another 44" printer as my 10 year old P9900 is getting long in the tooth.
We have dual 44" printers so never have a need to switch blacks. 99% of our canvas/paper is on rolls and we have an HP z3200 that lays down a clear coat.
We could buy 2 P8000's for less than a new P9570. They are certainly not the same class printer but the price point is just too far off to ignore.
Don't get me wrong, I would love one just to see the differences. Than again 50% of my wide format printing is for a pet photographer with another 40% going to hospital wall art from photos from the local photography club. The lower end Epson's are really good enough.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 10, 2020, 12:38:23 pm
 The scp9000 would be a better fit, as it had about the same extended colorspace as the 9900. And also the 9000 is reduced in price, at least over here.
The 9000 makers more and better use of green and Orange compared to the 9900. I used a 9900 and since 4years the 9000 (2 of Them) .
The SCP9500 is ment to replace a scp7000 and a scp9000 , and if issues resolved i believe it is a good decision.


 :-\
For someone with only one wide format printer the P9570 may be the ticket. The items you list make perfect sense.
I will be in the market very soon for another 44" printer as my 10 year old P9900 is getting long in the tooth.
We have dual 44" printers so never have a need to switch blacks. 99% of our canvas/paper is on rolls and we have an HP z3200 that lays down a clear coat.
We could buy 2 P8000's for less than a new P9570. They are certainly not the same class printer but the price point is just too far off to ignore.
Don't get me wrong, I would love one just to see the differences. Than again 50% of my wide format printing is for a pet photographer with another 40% going to hospital wall art from photos from the local photography club. The lower end Epson's are really good enough.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: dgberg on March 10, 2020, 03:13:25 pm
Jan,
I had a 9890 printing beside my 9900 for 5 years. The 9890 does not have the orange and green and the 9900 does.
I have compared hundreds of images between those two printers and it is almost impossible to tell what was printed with which printer. You just cannot tell.
This is all on canvas so others may have different results on papers. Have pretty much made up my mind when the P9900 kicks the bucket we will get one or two P8000's
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 11, 2020, 07:05:29 am
Then the scp8000 is indeed the better choice.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on March 16, 2020, 06:47:20 pm
UPDATE

I recontacted Epson Tech Support this morning.  After a week, no further info from Epson.  The clock is running on my ability to return it to B&H.  Looks like I may be forced to do that if I don’t hear something encouraging soon.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 17, 2020, 12:13:07 pm
I had contact with Epson, now via my supplier a request to do some specials prints, and to send these to Epson Europe. So no solution in the short term i am afraid. The corona virus impact does not help either (a positive eufemistic twist)
Title: Re: SureColor P9570, A TOTAL FAILURE !
Post by: JRSmit on March 19, 2020, 08:43:41 am
SureColor P9570, A TOTAL FAILURE !

Has EPSON lost their marbles??????

I got this feedback from Epson, regarding my reported issues:

"If the provided ICC profiles don't give the expected printouts, the customer should adapt the ICC profiles to his papers. The higher the resolution, the more ink is used in the printout. For matte papers it could be too much ink in some cases. Matte paper can absorb half of the ink than glossy paper can absorb. Therefore you should use half of the resolution for the printouts. For SureColor SC-Px000-x0000 he could use the Color Calibration Utility. As you know the media and profile handling was changed for the new SC-P7500/9500. For the new printers you need Epson Edge Dashboard and Epson Media Installer. In the Media Installer you manage the media profiles and the color profiles."

Legal action!
Title: Re: SureColor P9570, A TOTAL FAILURE !
Post by: JRSmit on March 19, 2020, 08:51:49 am
Looking back over the period of 1.5 month now with the new line of Epson printers, the SC-P7500/9500 (in the USA 7570/9570),
i have come to the conclusion that this new line of Epson large format printers is a FAIL.

Much to my regret, this printer series is positioned by Epson as a step up, the contrary is true, it is the worst printer ever i have experienced.

I am puzzled as how this is possible, given alo a field-test period of more than 6 months by probably several persons,  of one at least i know that he is not just somebody.
Also Epson has a long history in inkjetprinting, the SC-P9000 (6000,7000,8000) are really fine machines, very high print quality, reliable, robust.
I have used them from the moment they entered the market in The Netherlands, more than 4 years ago, and still have one SCP9000 running very well indeed.
I replaced a SCP7000 and a SCP9000, still printing perfect after 4 years of daily print-studio production use, by one SCP9500.
This was my worst decision in my printing life.

And the response thusfar from Epson Service is in the post earlier, but repeated here:
"If the provided ICC profiles don't give the expected printouts, the customer should adapt the ICC profiles to his papers. The higher the resolution, the more ink is used in the printout. For matte papers it could be too much ink in some cases. Matte paper can absorb half of the ink than glossy paper can absorb. Therefore you should use half of the resolution for the printouts. For SureColor SC-Px000-x0000 he could use the Color Calibration Utility. As you know the media and profile handling was changed for the new SC-P7500/9500. For the new printers you need Epson Edge Dashboard and Epson Media Installer. In the Media Installer you manage the media profiles and the color profiles."

I just do not get it.



Summary of issues:

- Over-inking, especially on Fine Art Gloss papers, less of a problem on Fine Art Matte papers, but still. Observed on severla printers already.
- Driver software poorly designed or programmed, see previous post on this, also observed by Rand.
- Paper-transport flaky , see attached PDF
- Scaling issues (see Rand's posts)
- Preview issues (see Rands posts and mine on this item)
- Head-alignment not maximal , close but not to the level of SC-P9000, somehow a bit better on Fine Art Matte compared to Fine Art Gloss.
- Epson Media Installer seriously flawed, see one my early posts on this topic.

In short, not usable, thus FAIL.


I spent several hundred Euro's already on ink and paper, not to mention my time, without getting somewhere really, other than reporting to Epson the issues.
Even a test production run on Fine Art Matte, ended in finding, thus reporting,  another serious issue, this time in the paper transport.

How was it possible that printers of this poor quality were put on the market by Epson?
How does Epson do its product-quality control and assurance?

And then you get a reply from Epson ( see above), time for legal action now.



Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on March 19, 2020, 05:35:14 pm
Jan,

So, If I’m understanding you correctly, Epson intends to do nothing to resolve the issues you’re having?  Only provided advice on the inadequacy of their own ICC profiles and driver?

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 20, 2020, 03:19:28 am
I have sent to the person in charge of Epson Netherlands a formal notice. A notice of default is I believe the English term for it.

I read in reply of Epson that it states that the printer is fine, I am doing the wrong things.

However the statement of Epson by itself is pertinently wrong, and shows that the person who wrote it has no clue of what printing entails and no experience whatsoever with printing or profiling.
Nor does it address any of the issues reported.

But it is the statement of Epson, therefore I wrote and sent a formal notice.

This morning I woke up with a feeling of unbelief and of sadness. I feel sorry for Epson, with their huge history of very fine and highest quality inkjet printers , that this is all they can say when a thusfar loyal Epson customer reports issues with the latest generation of Epson printers. It makes me sad.


A bit of background of me as Fine Art Printing Specialist:
I have started printing more than 10 years ago, My first Epson , Stylus pro 4900  I purchased end of 2012, since then a stylus pro 9900, 2 surecolor sc-p9000, a sc-p7000. I still have 1 sc-p9000. I printed on sc-p8000 for an exhibition in a museum, I have printed on stylus pro 11880 and on sc-p20000 when the print size demanded for it. Also on HP printers and in one occasion, for the launch of a Hahnemuhle paper in 2014 on a Canon 6450. Not only printed but also finding optimum settings for these printers for given paper and profiling these and controlling the quality. Have been doing that for a lot of different papers (media).




Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 20, 2020, 05:26:59 am
Just one more issue i stumbled across when running a print-job as test , on a fine art matte paper. Sort of a band in the first 1-3inches of a print. To avoid this you have to choose a setting in paper edge quality which will add another 3inches or so of margin. Just the option "standard" will lead to this.
It is also mentioned in my formal notice sent to Epson.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: drmrking on March 23, 2020, 08:44:51 pm
Sorry to hear about all the problems with new Epson, was really hoping to get one, but now thinking again.
BTW did you mean 3" of margin for turning on "optimize edge quality", did you actually try it ? manual pg 110 says it will add approx 35mm and given minimum is 3mm that's means approx 38mm total. More like 1.5 inches. Still a lot for someone like me that prefers sheets. But I could probably just about live with that. 3 inch margin on leading edge however would be a show stopper. Txs Mike
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on March 23, 2020, 09:23:37 pm
Sorry to hear about all the problems with new Epson, was really hoping to get one, but now thinking again.
BTW did you mean 3" of margin for turning on "optimize edge quality", did you actually try it ? manual pg 110 says it will add approx 35mm and given minimum is 3mm that's means approx 38mm total. More like 1.5 inches. Still a lot for someone like me that prefers sheets. But I could probably just about live with that. 3 inch margin on leading edge however would be a show stopper. Txs Mike

Mike,   

Your question is an excellent one.  It doesn’t matter whether “optimize edge quality” is on or off (checked or not).  Same issues.  And worse is the random rescaling of the image!  And from my reading and thinking about the OEQ option, it’s apparently mostly for roll paper where the leading edge of a “just inserted” roll will naturally have a lot more curl than subsequently fed paper, ergo the extra feed.  Like you, sheet stock will still be my main demand, and this printer has a min margin of .56” on the lead edge as it is, which more limiting on some sheet stock than is my SC P5000, e.g., but I can live with that (or use the P5000 for really small sheets).

My posts are not intended to disparage Epson.  As I’ve said, I own, use and love several Epson printers.  Having said that, I’d hold off on this one until they figure it out.  Once it’s sorted out, I’m sure it will be class leading!  I’d lean in the direction of saying mine was merely defective if all the others I’ve communicated with were not experiencing similar issues.  Read the reviews from two 9570 owners on B&H.  The only two reviews.  Both “not so good.” 

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on March 24, 2020, 04:24:01 am
In case of using Roll it is about 3 inches. And yes it needed, is my conclusion for now. I stopped using the printer forcthe moment as i have sent a formal notice to Epson The Netherlands last Friday.
Note : i normally print only occasionally on sheet paper. Given the relatively large amount of paper wasted with this printer, i do re-use that if possible .



Sorry to hear about all the problems with new Epson, was really hoping to get one, but now thinking again.
BTW did you mean 3" of margin for turning on "optimize edge quality", did you actually try it ? manual pg 110 says it will add approx 35mm and given minimum is 3mm that's means approx 38mm total. More like 1.5 inches. Still a lot for someone like me that prefers sheets. But I could probably just about live with that. 3 inch margin on leading edge however would be a show stopper. Txs Mike
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 02, 2020, 08:08:57 am
UPDATE:

Two more weeks have gone by.  Still not a word from Epson Tech Support.  I suspect the COVID 19 lock-down here in CA is having an effect.  The Tech Support center is in Long Beach, CA. Would be nice to at least have an email letting me know it’s going to be a while, or whatever is the current status.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 02, 2020, 11:25:06 am
UPDATE:

Two more weeks have gone by.  Still not a word from Epson Tech Support.  I suspect the COVID 19 lock-down here in CA is having an effect.  The Tech Support center is in Long Beach, CA. Would be nice to at least have an email letting me know it’s going to be a while, or whatever is the current status.

Rand

Is it too late to return the printer?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 02, 2020, 11:38:08 am
Is it too late to return the printer?

Yes, I let my 30 day B&H period has go by in the midst of this.  I’m feeling ambivalent about that fact. I’m certain that either my unit (if defective) will be repaired/replaced, or more likely, Epson will eventually get these universal firmware/driver issues sorted out.  As long as I’m made whole re warranty and hopefully wasted materials doing their beta testing for them, I think I’ll be very happy with the printer.  Here’s the strangeness (Twilight Zone music in the background), I love everything about how this printer works, except the goofed up prints.  LOL  Well, that’s not fully true - Epson’s move to require paper settings to be registered in the printer and with a lot of those settings now not even available in the driver, strikes me as a dumb move.  Keeping at least a user option in this regard would be much better for printers with established workflows using LR, PS, etc.  But I can adapt to that, even though I don’t like it.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on April 02, 2020, 01:41:52 pm
I am pretty sure that after software or firmware update, the printer will work finally fine! The real problem is your wasted time, paper and inks.Epson has to compensate you for all this.
We will keep watching.
Good luck Rand and Jan.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 02, 2020, 01:49:56 pm
The paper related settings are now in one place. In previous generations it was in both printer and driver, but when a 'custom paper type was selected on the printer, its paper related settings like thickness and gap were used regardless of driver settings.
So now these settings are in one place.
The Bad thing however is that in the driver these are not shown, even if you select "use printer settings" , you are "driving" blind.
Add the fact that the driver is not "sticky" , makers it "double blind".
Using Epson Edge Dashboard (EED) adds nothing really to the table.
All in all very poor in terms of user experience, as if the designer had no clue of the workflow of  persons printing.

EED is more a supervisors tool for a collection of printer devices. Not a print operator tool, i.e. someone that prepares and executes a print task. His or her tools are a application like Photoshop and the driver for given printer device.



Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 02, 2020, 01:59:13 pm
Thanks George, this is also what i still hope for.

However i am already almost 2 months underway with a device that is hardly usable, other than a being a "doorstop".
It replaces 2 still fine working printers, so i have a painfull production handicap, and curiously enough, with the covid19 drama unfolding, i still receive print orders.


I am pretty sure that after software or firmware update, the printer will work finally fine! The real problem is your wasted time, paper and inks.Epson has to compensate you for all this.
We will keep watching.
Good luck Rand and Jan.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 02, 2020, 02:43:14 pm
I am pretty sure that after software or firmware update, the printer will work finally fine! The real problem is your wasted time, paper and inks.Epson has to compensate you for all this.
We will keep watching.
Good luck Rand and Jan.

George,

Thanks for the positive vibes! 

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 03, 2020, 06:15:23 pm
I HAVE GOOD NEWS TO REPORT:

Epson Tech Support in Long Beach CA, contacted me today.  They apologized for the silence, and it was as I suspected, things are tough re staffing, remote working, etc. due to the COVID situation.  They assured me, however, that they are very serious about resolving my printer issues.

There was a new firmware release for the SC P7570 posted to Epson's support web page only a few days ago (3/26/20) and that DOES NOT SHOW UP on the Epson Software Updater utility.  I downloaded and installed the firmware.  What is interesting to note is that in the release notes for this firmware that my tech rep had, none of my issues is mentioned as being addressed in the update.  Apparently only some user interface issues.

BUT, the updated firmware (03.34.LK11K3) seems to have resolved the following issues:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-6gFv7gn/0/ee8c1821/M/i-6gFv7gn-M.jpg)


The upshot of this is that I can now make print templates as I have done in my printing workflow w/ my other Epson printers.
It is still important to note that if you don't either "save" these settings in the driver, or save them as a template to be invoked in LR, the driver will default back to very low print quality settings.  I think this should be fixed to be sticky.  One can still make dumb mistakes, but at least they will be our "own" mistakes.  LOL

Issues Unresolved at this time:

The printer driver's "Print Preview" function still is messed up and shows only a corner of the image most of the time.
And to be candid, I've only made about 8 test prints today on various Epson papers, both cut sheet and roll, and while I'm VERY ENCOURAGED by the changes I see with the updated firmware, I'm "cautiously optimistic" that come tomorrow things remain "fixed."  OK, so I'm a little paranoid at this point!  LOL
The tech representative said he would follow up re the driver situation.

Bottom line.  For now the printer is usable, pending further confirmation through actual use.

Suspicions:

I think there is still some cross-talk, conflict with between firmware and driver.

OK, this is all GREAT news.  The printer is now usable, pending further tweaks / info / action from Epson.  And as I've said above, probably a couple of times, operationally this is a really beautiful printer.  I LOVE the cut sheet feed mechanism and how it loads cut sheets.

I'm very happy to be able to report this good news.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 04, 2020, 09:21:36 am
I agree with Rand’s findings wrt printing on legacy baryta with new firmware. Also measurements on grey ramp tests show a much smoother b-curve in the dark-grey range.

But on fine art gloss papers of 3 different manufacturers the bleeding and mottling is still unacceptable.

I expect feedback from Epson NL early next week, as Epson level 2 support have now received the specific prints they asked for . (Shipment took a couple of days longer than normal, caused by the Covid 19 drama.)

It is still my belief that once the print quality issues and the software issues are resolved, it will be a very fine printer.

The sooner the better, as I have my scp9500 now for almost 2 months, replacing a scp7000 and a scp9000, so , with only one scp9000 left a serious limitation in production capacity
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on April 04, 2020, 10:11:57 am
These are very good news and many thanks for sharing!
Two questions :
1. If you reduce color density by about 5-10% doesn't help?
2. I am very curious if the paper transport system has changed.
Is the paper tension more constant so the paper doesn't touch the inner part of the printer?
The little 'rollers transport' are the same or they have changed in shape, size or material?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 04, 2020, 10:20:02 am
I HAVE GOOD NEWS TO REPORT:

Thanks for the update, Rand. Very encouraging. However, I'm reconsidering upgrading since exhibition possibilities for me will probably be limited for some time.

Jim
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 04, 2020, 10:23:59 am
Thanks for the update, Rand. Very encouraging. However, I'm reconsidering upgrading since exhibition possibilities for me will probably be limited for some time.

Jim

Jim,

Yes, it’s a little like being “all dressed up with nowhere to go.”  😉  At least for a while, and the definition of “a while” seems to be growing with each passing day.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 04, 2020, 05:58:12 pm
Hi George,

With the previous firmware on a fine art gloss I went to -20 and still had some.
With the latest firmware I did not test this, given the severity of the bleeding.
And I  already spent too much on identifying and reproducing problems.

It is now first up to Epson to respond

You know Nor Rand or I got a signal from Epson that there was new firmware,
nor that it solves (some) of the reported problems. Also the date of that firmware is too early.


The paper transport system is changed, however I did not study it in enough detail.
The plastic parts where the roll is held, I already showed in a post with photos
that it looks like it still touches the paper, like on the scp9000 family.

There is also a ‘pizzawheel’ axle just above the bottom where the paper exits the printer. It’s use can be controlled in the menu. I have not given it more thought than to turn it off.







These are very good news and many thanks for sharing!
Two questions :
1. If you reduce color density by about 5-10% doesn't help?
2. I am very curious if the paper transport system has changed.
Is the paper tension more constant so the paper doesn't touch the inner part of the printer?
The little 'rollers transport' are the same or they have changed in shape, size or material?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 04, 2020, 06:04:41 pm
Yes, it is a weird time. On Friday I delivered the framed prints to a customer for an exhibition which is now rescheduled to January 2021 😟
Very abnormal situation.

Thanks for the update, Rand. Very encouraging. However, I'm reconsidering upgrading since exhibition possibilities for me will probably be limited for some time.

Jim
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 07, 2020, 09:39:59 am
UPDATE

More test prints.  More success.  Not a single error of any kind.  I’m gaining confidence in this printer.

I did find a discrepancy between the User Guide on Page 100 where it shows the “usual” menu of adjustable parameters for paper settings that in previous printers are adjustable from the driver.  BUT, in the driver itself (6.71 Windows 10 64 bit) the adjustments are limited to only color density.  I’ve documented with screen shots and sent to Epson Tech Support rep.  His response is that he’s forwarded the info, but his sense is that the User Guide is incorrect, since these adjustment parameters are intended to be made only from the printer’s LCD menu in these new printers.

I also have also created my first custom paper setting, using the Epson Media Installer utility, and registered it successfully to the printer.  In this case, I created a custom paper for Canson Platine Fibre Rag.  It is interesting to see that once I’ve given it that name, it shows up exactly as that name in both the printer’s menu, and in the driver as a media type.  You “build” the custom type by copying an extant Epson paper’s attributes, renaming, then registering to the printer.  In this example I used Epson Legacy Platine as the extant paper to copy.  Then once registered to the printer you can go into the printer’s menu select the custom paper’s name (i.e. Canson Platine Fibre Rag) and adjust all the other usual parameters, e.g. thickness, platen gap.  Taking my micrometer to the Canson paper I noted that it’s caliper is slightly thicker than the Epson version of Platine.  I made that adjustment, and s small tweak to the platen gap (first test had little corner inking marks).  For now, I also “assigned” the Epson Legacy Platine ICC profile while in the Epson Media Installer utility. (Canson does not have profiles for these printers available yet.). I suspect that registering the ICC profile as part of the custom paper settings only has impact if one is using “Printer Manages Color.”  But would like to know this for certain.  I’m using color management turned off and selecting the appropriate (same)  ICC profile from within Lightroom’s print module, which worked fine.   It does make me wonder if one ICC profile was “assigned” in the custom paper settings, and a different ICC profile selected in LR’s print module w/ “no color managment” set in the driver…. could / would that create a double profiling conflict?  Yet to be determined by testing.  I’m going to guess “not” but needs to be confirmed.

I was then able to create a print template in Lightroom using this new custom paper registered in the printer and it worked well.  This is a different scheme from other Epson printers I’ve owned, but once figured out is easy enough to do.  It has the advantage of eliminating remembering 3rd party paper “media types” for various papers, since once a custom paper is built from that extant Epson paper as “media type” and naming that paper with its actual name, you’re done.  So, I’ve changed my mind about this whole scheme being a solution in search of a problem..  It’s a little more work, but makes for an easier, more clear operation of the printer with 3rd party papers “over the long haul.”  There’s room for 30 custom papers to be registered to the printer, which for my use is plenty.

Also, I had Digital Deck Covers make a nice lightweight cover for this printer for me.  I assisted them by taking photos of my printer from all sides, and putting in the various dimensions.  The cover fits very nicely and is easy to put on and take off.  I could recommend Digital Deck Covers for anyone considering a cover for their printer.

That’s it for now.  At this point, I think this printer will make it possible to completely replace my SC P5000 printer as “redundant.”  I’ll keep my little SC P600 for really small prints and as my quick go-to utility photo printer.  If anyone in the Southern California area is interested in a P5000 at a very attractive price, let me know.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 07, 2020, 11:45:28 am
Yes some improvement. Also in USA the new driver version is6.72 now.
A custom paper registered in Epson Media Installer now shows in the driver as well, but not the custom papers defined in de printer.

Still no clue what else is registered in EMI, like paper thickness etc.

However still a serious bug with Epson Media Installer, it wipes alle your custom paper sizes. For me this is a show stopper, as Lightroom shows the paper size as registered in the driver.
I use a lot of different paper sizes.

Also "Use Printer Settings" is nog saved when saving a setting in the driver.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 07, 2020, 12:00:15 pm
Yes some improvement. Also in USA the new driver version is6.72 now.
A custom paper registered in Epson Media Installer now shows in the driver as well, but not the custom papers defined in de printer.

Still no clue what else is registered in EMI, like paper thickness etc.

However still a serious bug with Epson Media Installer, it wipes alle your custom paper sizes. For me this is a show stopper, as Lightroom shows the paper size as registered in the driver.
I use a lot of different paper sizes.

Also "Use Printer Settings" is nog saved when saving a setting in the driver.

Jan,

In the driver I am NOT using “use printer settings.”  And selecting media type and paper size in the driver.  In the printer, when I load the paper, and choose the paper type... I “see” all the normal / same paper sizes that show in the driver.  I select the “same size” in the printer as I’ve selected in the driver.  And I’m not having any further problems with size and placement of images on those paper sizes.  And, under advanced settings, all the other parameters are available, thickness, platen gap, etc.  and they are "sticky" in the printer.

Thanks for the heads up re a v. 6.72 driver version.  I’ll go take a look a little later this morning to see if it is available for my printer.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 07, 2020, 02:04:08 pm
Jan,

In the driver I am NOT using “use printer settings.”  And selecting media type and paper size in the driver.  In the printer, when I load the paper, and choose the paper type... I “see” all the normal / same paper sizes that show in the driver.  I select the “same size” in the printer as I’ve selected in the driver.  And I’m not having any further problems with size and placement of images on those paper sizes.  And, under advanced settings, all the other parameters are available, thickness, platen gap, etc.  and they are "sticky" in the printer.

Thanks for the heads up re a v. 6.72 driver version.  I’ll go take a look a little later this morning to see if it is available for my printer.

Rand
Rand how do you set the length of paper from a roll ? Printing from Lightroom requires to define a size for the paper.

In my driver the settings are not sticky, hmmm .

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 07, 2020, 02:30:28 pm
Rand how do you set the length of paper from a roll ? Printing from Lightroom requires to define a size for the paper.

In my driver the settings are not sticky, hmmm .

Jan,

I'm Windows.  In the driver I select "roll paper."  Then set the size using "user defined."  I create the size starting with 24" (in my case), and the then put in the length that I need estimating what my margins will need to be at either "top/bottom" or "left/right" depending on orientation for the size image on the paper.  Then I save that user defined size in the driver for easy use later.  I can then create a LR print template from those driver settings, and so far with the new firmware it is "sticky."    I think my circumstances might be a little different than yours because I don't lay out multiple images "side by side" on the width of the roll paper.  The 7570 being a 24" carriage, the roll paper is used almost exclusively for single larger prints than can be made using cut sheet.  E.g. 20x30, 24x36, wider panoramas, etc.  Works fine.  If any given image size is smaller than one of my user defined "lengths" I can go in "on the fly" and shorten up the user defined setting (or lengthen as the case may require) until my margins are what I want, w/o wasting paper.  If you'd like me to create a short screen-capture video on this, I'd be glad to do that and send you a download link from my server?  That way you could see that this method "works" in my setup.  If it doesn't in yours, then my video might be helpful to you in showing Epson as you troubleshoot.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 07, 2020, 03:46:16 pm
Hi Rand, a screen capture video would be nice.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 07, 2020, 03:54:04 pm
Hi Rand, a screen capture video would be nice.

Jan,

Will do.  Will PM you with link, once completed.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 10, 2020, 08:34:44 am
UPDATE

This update is to report that the printer is now 99% GREAT!  I could heartily recommend it to anyone looking for a state of the art, fine art printer.  The remaining bug(s) in the driver are being aggressively hunted down by Epson Advanced Technical Support.  And the remaining issue(s) with the driver do not impact the quality of the prints in any way.  Just minor irritation in using the Print Preview function in the driver.

And, I think it is important for me to also report how incredibly pleased I am with Epson Advanced Technical Support.  They continue to be very responsive, and very aware, concerned, and actively pursuing resolution of remaining issues.  I won’t name the tech rep who is assisting me, but I am so very pleased with his professionalism, responsiveness, and even the personal touch in dealing / working “with me” on resolution of every single issue I’ve brought to his attention.  Since I have tried to be direct, honest, yet not histrionic in describing the issues associated with this brand new printer, I think it only fair to be equally direct and honest in my praise of Epson in stepping up to the plate to resolve these issues.  And I think I can say that any initial slowness in response was due entirely to the COVID 19 situation here in CA.  Epson (out of Long Beach CA) was caught in the transition from the team all “being in the office” to having to work remotely, establish new ways of communication and “teaming” during this time.  More than understandable.  And I’ll state for the record that no one at Epson has “encouraged me” to post anything like this at all, in any way.  This is just what I think is “due” in terms of being straightforward in my reporting of this situation.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 10, 2020, 11:11:47 am
Only true for Epson branded papers.

Certainly NOT for fine art gloss papers from respected manufacturers.
One cause is the new ink formulation which makes the printer incompatible with these fine art gloss papers.
99% of my print orders are with non-Epson papers, so I will replace my scp9500 with a scp9000, which is significantly better.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 10, 2020, 11:15:03 am
Only true for Epson branded papers.

Certainly NOT for fine art gloss papers from respected manufacturers.
One cause is the new ink formulation which makes the printer incompatible with these fine art gloss papers.
99% of my print orders are with non-Epson papers, so I will replace my scp9500 with a scp9000, which is significantly better.

Hi Jan,

Could you list the specific brand / paper  “fine art gloss papers” that you are certain the new ink set is incompatible with?  And, share with us how you came to the conclusion that the ink is incompatible? It would be very helpful.

I’m sorry to hear you’re still having serious issues and have come to this conclusion.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on April 10, 2020, 02:27:32 pm
That sounds really strange? You can’t make a custom media setting?  How s Epson Legacy Platine? That is mostly what I use. It’s the same as the Canson Platine. Your saying Hahnemuehle media has a coating that is so unique that they can’t function in the 9570. Bizarre. If that’s true it would kill Epson because way too many people wouldn’t put up with it. There are too many editions out on these various media.



Hi Jan,

Could you list the specific brand / paper  “fine art gloss papers” that you are certain the new ink set is incompatible with?  And, share with us how you came to the conclusion that the ink is incompatible? It would be very helpful.

I’m sorry to hear you’re still having serious issues and have come to this conclusion.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 10, 2020, 03:13:33 pm
That sounds really strange? You can’t make a custom media setting?  How s Epson Legacy Platine? That is mostly what I use. It’s the same as the Canson Platine. Your saying Hahnemuehle media has a coating that is so unique that they can’t function in the 9570. Bizarre. If that’s true it would kill Epson because way too many people wouldn’t put up with it. There are too many editions out on these various media.

I can't speak for Jan, but I'm using Epson Legacy Platine very successfully in my SC P7570.  It's beautiful, as always (I have used it extensively in my P5000).  I also successfully "spun off" a custom media type from the Epson Media Installer for Canson Platine Fibre Rag from the Epson version (I then tweaked a couple of settings for it in the printer).  No issues.  Also prints beautifully, even using the OEM ICC profile for Epson Legacy Platine - pending my getting custom profiles made.

I think Jan is referencing other manufacturers papers.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Mick Sang on April 13, 2020, 10:24:54 pm
Quote
Only true for Epson branded papers.

The majority of papers that we use include Canson Platine, Baryta, many Hahnemuhle papers, Legacy Platine (Canson) and a few Epson Papers. We have seen only excellent results on all from our 9570 - comparable to our P5000. I can not imagine the 9000 being better.

Mick
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 14, 2020, 03:17:28 pm
The majority of papers that we use include Canson Platine, Baryta, many Hahnemuhle papers, Legacy Platine (Canson) and a few Epson Papers. We have seen only excellent results on all from our 9570 - comparable to our P5000. I can not imagine the 9000 being better.

Mick
Mick, which fine art glossy from Hahnemuhle have you used on the 9570? And with what driver and printer settings?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 14, 2020, 03:30:55 pm
The majority of papers that we use include Canson Platine, Baryta, many Hahnemuhle papers, Legacy Platine (Canson) and a few Epson Papers. We have seen only excellent results on all from our 9570 - comparable to our P5000. I can not imagine the 9000 being better.

Mick

Mick,

Actually, I'm finding my 7570 a little better than my P5000, now that it is mostly sorted out via firmware updates, etc..  I printed the same printer test file with both (Bill Atkinson composite)  Both prints on Epson Legacy Baryta from the same box. Same color management scheme (i.e. no color adjustment in printer driver), OEM Epson ICC profiles for each printer as appropriate.  "Straight prints," same image size, etc.  So, "as identical" as I could make them. 

Results in 7570 print:

From a mere comparison of the ICC profiles in ColorThink Pro, I wasn't expecting to see much, if any visible difference / improvement between the two printers.  As far as color gamut is concerned, there isn't. But overall, I was very surprised.  The differences are subtle, but very much there. I've shown the two prints to two different observers w/ no indication of which was which.  In both cases the first reaction was, "They're the same."  I told them to look at them for a bit and start comparing individual items of IQ like details in the dark areas, the smoothness of the ramp, tonal transition across flowers, etc.  Both observers upon reflection chose the 7570 print and when pressed for why they changed their mind gave me the exact laundry list shared above.  One of the observers is a good photographer for whom I make prints.  The other was my wife who knows next to nothing about digital photography or print making - but IS a watercolor artist. 

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Mick Sang on April 14, 2020, 11:26:18 pm
Quote
Mick, which fine art glossy from Hahnemuhle have you used on the 9570?

PR Baryta, PR Bright White, FA Baryta, PR Pearl.

Quote
Actually, I'm finding my 7570 a little better than my P5000

Depends upon what you mean by "better." Gamut is larger in deep blu- purple - violets due to the violet ink. That in itself is an improvement. No more black switching is a blessing. Prints beautifully IMHO.

Mick
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 15, 2020, 08:41:56 am
Depends upon what you mean by "better."

Yeah, that’s kinda why I described in some detail, above, the areas in actual print output IQ that I found that are better/superior.   ;)   I thought others who are considering this series of printer might find the observation useful.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on April 15, 2020, 10:33:10 am
Because it is important to me I pose again 2 questions. Maybe Rand can answer it...
-Is the paper tension more constant so the paper doesn't touch the inner part of the printer when it moves backwards  and forwards ?
-The little 'rollers transport' are the same or they have changed in shape, size or material? (See Attachment from P9000)
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 15, 2020, 10:48:40 am
Because it is important to me I pose again 2 questions. Maybe Rand can answer it...
-Is the paper tension more constant so the paper doesn't touch the inner part of the printer when it moves backwards  and forwards ?
-The little 'rollers transport' are the same or they have changed in shape, size or material? (See Attachment from P9000)

To the first question re paper tension, I would say “yes” - but that’s an educated guess based on observation.

To the second question, I’m not qualified to answer, not having owned a wider than 17” printer. previously.

Sorry I can’t be more help.  Are there areas of the printer feed mechanism that I could photograph up close for you that might help?

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 15, 2020, 12:12:34 pm
Because it is important to me I pose again 2 questions. Maybe Rand can answer it...
-Is the paper tension more constant so the paper doesn't touch the inner part of the printer when it moves backwards  and forwards ?
-The little 'rollers transport' are the same or they have changed in shape, size or material? (See Attachment from P9000)
Visibly the rollers are the same.
The paper tension thing, it is different in the part from the roll into the first part of the paper feed mechanism.
The paper feed is in small quite brutal steps and you can see that the unrolling is varying. So the paper can touch the plastic parts at the right end and on the left end of the roll holding part. I have also seen on these plastic parts marks that look like the paper has touched those parts. I have not used the printer yet with rather stiff papers like Innova ifa107 or Hahnemuhle Museum Etching, so no feedback on that. And that will stay so for a while, as I will no longer use the printer. I will post  in a separate thread my findings thusfar, so to make clear why I will not use the printer anymore.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 15, 2020, 01:04:24 pm
Quote
I have also seen on these plastic parts marks that look like the paper has touched those parts.
[/b]

Jan,

Is this on all papers?  I had head-strikes once until the new firmware, but I have not seen these marks on the papers I've tested.  Epson Baryta, and Platine.  Canson Platine, and Ilford Gold Fibre Gloss.  I've also tested Epson Legacy Textured and Legacy Fibre matte papers. 

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 16, 2020, 02:54:09 am


Jan,

Is this on all papers?  I had head-strikes once until the new firmware, but I have not seen these marks on the papers I've tested.  Epson Baryta, and Platine.  Canson Platine, and Ilford Gold Fibre Gloss.  I've also tested Epson Legacy Textured and Legacy Fibre matte papers. 

Rand
Hi Rand, it is not about head strikes.

It is about the black plastic parts on both of the roll holding elements.

I have no indication it is true for all papers. On my scp9000 it was true for rolls with relatively thick fine art matte papers. It would then show up as a faint linear mark in the length of the paper some 6 cm from the side.
In an earlier post I showed photos of the plastic parts where an edge or a corner is sort of sticking out a little.
These edge or corner touched the surface of the paper, thereby altering a little bit the surface and when printed will show up as a faint line because of the changed surface texture.

I never got to working with such papers on my scp9500 because of the show stopper issues with this printer. Never the less I already noticed what looks like stuff marks on these parts on the scp9500.

Also a word of caution with Legacy Platine: reduce the platen suction, and increase the paper thickness setting to prevent/reduce the marking on the paper caused by paper feed rollers and the ridges of the platen . By increasing the thickness setting a bit, the pressure of the rollers on the paper is reduced.
The platen is not a flat plate, but has little chambers needed for the suction, and the ridges in between will cause markings.
This paper is quite soft and gets a lot softer because of the ink fluid being absorbed by the paper during the printing. On my SCP9000 I used , if memory serves me well, a paper thickness of 0.5 or 0.6 mm and the platen suction of -2 or -3 to minimize these markings. It used to be a very fine fine art gloss paper.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on April 16, 2020, 05:54:53 am
Jan and Rand thank you! The scratches I am referring to are random anywhere on the print. They are very thin and they show up "better" into uniform dark tones. My understanding is that this happens when  the paper touches the inner parts of the printer before it comes to the paper feed rollers.The reason for that, I think, is because the tension of the paper is very irregular when it goes backwards - forward's before being ready to print. This applies to 9900 and P9000 printers when printing glossy FineArt papers in rolls.
"It would then show up as a faint linear mark in the length of the paper some 6 cm from the side".
I never had this line
I hope this is clear
Best regards
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 16, 2020, 08:48:57 am
George, Just a check, how often do you clean the inner areas of the printer, including the part where the paper enters the printer casing, as well as the structures around the roll?
I do that at least weekly.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 16, 2020, 08:49:52 am
Also have you tried different roll tension settings?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on April 16, 2020, 09:38:09 am
Also have you tried different roll tension settings?
I think that the movement of the roll is not always in absolute sync with the movement of the transport axis. It is not a matter of "how much tension" but a matter of "even tension".I will try less tension anyway. I clean often the inner part with compressed air. I am sorry but my English is not so good and I have problems to describe complicated technical things.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 16, 2020, 12:11:46 pm
I think that the movement of the roll is not always in absolute sync with the movement of the transport axis. It is not a matter of "how much tension" but a matter of "even tension".I will try less tension anyway. I clean often the inner part with compressed air. I am sorry but my English is not so good and I have problems to describe complicated technical things.
I clean with a special dusting cloth, i am not a fan of using compressed air, as i do not know where the dust will go.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: drmrking on April 22, 2020, 05:50:26 pm
in the new 6.72 driver do you get the option for head alignment.
here in UK it seems to have disappeared from utility menu ! - see attachment
Or is there some setting(s) you need, to have it appear?
I tried quite a few options but it's gone ....
Any guidance gratefully received.

Many thanks,
Mike

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: drmrking on April 22, 2020, 08:21:13 pm
Ok so giving up on Epson EU info / manual - I found this on US site and indeed it applies to EU firmware LK11K3 as well.
So menu on printer allows head alignment, even if 6.72 driver utilities don't appear to provide support for it.

https://epson.com/faq/SPT_SCP7570SE~faq-0000a3c-scp7570_9570

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 23, 2020, 02:27:43 am
Indeed , the Epson USA site documentation is more in line.
What learned is to use an A2 sheet, first paper feed, then head alignment bi-dir auto. You can use the A2 sheet twice. I also print my own testchart on the same A2 to evaluate the head alignment.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: drmrking on April 23, 2020, 03:57:49 pm
Thanks Jan, are you willing to share head alignment test chart?
I was wondering how to know if it did a good job !

Also, do you know,

1) is the paper feed global or per paper?
2) If i create a new paper type from existing one does it carry across existing head alignment etc.?
3) does all this get wiped out by firmware update?

Appreciate you may not know this and I will figure out by trial and error - but anything you can share would be much appreciated - in the absence of this info from Epson.

Txs,
Mike

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 23, 2020, 04:05:38 pm
Search forum for test chart by Bart van der wolf, it is the most cruel test
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: drmrking on April 25, 2020, 08:00:48 am
Ok so I see Bart has charts for Epson 720 ppi and also Canon 600 ppi.
However, reading the 7/95xx manual, I see that Epson is saying that with the new print head design they have adopted 300 dpi for these printers and indeed the printer quality option info reflects that.

Is 300 dpi for Epson something new or has this been the case for a while for some of the Large format?
It's 10 years since I bought a new Epson (my 7900 just left the building).

Also I see the new Epson 700 and 900 desktop printers are still @ 720 ....

Cheers,
Mike



Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 25, 2020, 08:57:22 am
Earlier Epson large format printers print heads are 2880x1440.
The new larger heads of the SC P7570 and 9570 are 2400x1200.

Ergo, w/ my SC P7570 I’m using 300/600 as opposed to 360/720 for my SC P5000.

Also re the other questions above re head alignment (and other driver parameters) “missing” in the 75-95xx drivers, it is important to know that these printers use a different scheme for paper parameter settings.  With the exception of “color density” none of the parameters for individual paper settings are available in the driver. (Including launching the head alignment routine) E.g. thickness, platen gap, drying time per pass, suction, etc.  These are now required to be set “in the printer itself” via the LCD touch panel.  Each paper type’s name appears in the LCD and when you load and select that paper name, you can then set size, and “advanced settings” that contain all the above mentioned settings that used to be available in the driver.  And, they are “sticky.”. So, suppose I load a sheet (or roll) of Epson Legacy Platine in  my SC P7570.  In the LCD I select roll paper, load it, and when I feed the leading edge in and it “grabs it” and I hit “OK” and it starts to feed into the printer I get next on the menu a selection for what paper type it is.  I select Epson Legacy Platine by scrolling down the list of papers.  I then can select “Advanced Settings” for it, and make adjustments as desired to thickness, platen gap, suction, paper feed offset, drying time per pass, etc.  What ever I set at this point stays “sticky” whenever I use this same paper again - unless I change it.  And, the initial settings in Advanced Settings are (for Epson Papers) their recommended defaults.  The nice thing about this is that once any particular user-desired tweaks are made, it’s a once-and-done procedure “per paper type.”

Where this gets really interesting is its relationship to a new (to me at least) piece of utility software available for “launch” through the driver.  In fact if you look at the screen shot of the driver in the above post, you’ll see it!  It’s on the lower right, “Epson Media Installer.” (EMI)  This is an essential component in overall operation of these new printers.  In the EMi when launched is a laundry list of Epson papers, not all of which are currently “registered” in the printer itself’s menu via the control panel on the printer.  Here’s an example.  Lets say you want to use Epson Fine Art Velvet in your new 7570.  That “media type” isn’t in the driver selection for media type, nor is it in the printers menu as a selectable media type.  What to do?  You launch EMI find Fine Art Velvet in the laundry list.  You’ll see that the “registered” check box is “unchecked.”  You highlight Fine Art Velvet and hit “register to printer.”  It does its thing and then you see that it has been “successfully registered” and now the check box is checked.  When you exit EMI both the printer driver, and the printer’s LCD menu controls now show Fine Art Velvet - and in the Advanced Settings in the printer’s menu are all the Epson default settings re thickness, platen gap, etc. 

OK what’s “really interesting” about this begins when you start using 3rd party papers.  Here’s an example.  I wanted start using Canson Platine Fibre Rag in my SC P7570.   To create a “custom media type” you launch EMI, select an existing Epson paper type as the “starting place from which to build your custom media type.”  In this case I chose Epson Legacy Platine, there’s a tab in the EMI for creating new media types.   I select my Epson Legacy Platine and go through the create new media routine and am able to name this new media type anything I want to.  So I name it “it’s real name” i.e. Canson Platine.  When finished in EMI and I exit, there is now in the driver and in the printer’s menu a “media type” that is literally “Canson Platine” by name in the list!  Then for that paper type in the printer’s menu I can go to the advanced settings and tweak any of the default settings.  E.g. Canon’s Platine cut sheets tend to have a little more curl, so perhaps I’ll up the platen gap one notch for Canson’s Platine over the default values for Epson’s Legacy Platine.  This is a very cool thing once you get the hang of it.  No more remembering what the 3rd party paper manufacturer’s recommended media type is, etc., you just pick the paper “by it’s own name” in the driver and in the printer’s menu when loading it.

I know I’ve “gone on a bit” here with this description, but my experience getting dialed in on this new printer, and working through some of its teething problems with Epson Tech Support over the past two months, has given me insight into these things that is not very common “yet” amongst users, and certainly not potential buyers.  So I thought I’d share here in case any of this is helpful.

Rand


Ok so I see Bart has charts for Epson 720 ppi and also Canon 600 ppi.
However, reading the 7/95xx manual, I see that Epson is saying that with the new print head design they have adopted 300 dpi for these printers and indeed the printer quality option info reflects that.

Is 300 dpi for Epson something new or has this been the case for a while for some of the Large format?
It's 10 years since I bought a new Epson (my 7900 just left the building).

Also I see the new Epson 700 and 900 desktop printers are still @ 720 ....

Cheers,
Mike
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 25, 2020, 11:39:00 am
The PPI and DPI are different dimensions. Basically you input the image to the printer in PPI, where the printer expects what is set in the driver,  so 360PPI f.i.
It translates this to DPI , and being CMYK, this is 4 Times the PPI, so in this example 1440DPI.
The scp75xx/95xx is a 150/300/600 PPI device, thus maximum case is 2400DPI, which is also documented.
Soca bit less than f.i. the scp5000 - 9000 famoly, which has a max of 720PPI > 2880DPI
The Bart vd Wolf testchart for 600PPI is the right choice forcthe SCP75XX/95XX, and it will show the resolutipn of the printer in its different print quality level settings. A very clarifying excercise.


 
Ok so I see Bart has charts for Epson 720 ppi and also Canon 600 ppi.
However, reading the 7/95xx manual, I see that Epson is saying that with the new print head design they have adopted 300 dpi for these printers and indeed the printer quality option info reflects that.

Is 300 dpi for Epson something new or has this been the case for a while for some of the Large format?
It's 10 years since I bought a new Epson (my 7900 just left the building).

Also I see the new Epson 700 and 900 desktop printers are still @ 720 ....

Cheers,
Mike
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 25, 2020, 12:41:44 pm
UPDATE

I’m in possession of and have installed driver version 6.73 for my SC P7570.   It has fixed the Print Preview display error, and seems to have also corrected the problem where use of the Epson Media Installer software would wipe clean any saved settings or user defined paper sizes in the driver.

This is great progress.  6.73 should show up soon for general download on Epson’s Support page and in the Epson Software Updater utility.

There’s another “issue” that has surfaced in my testing that is relevant in a very specific situation only.  And so far it looks as though it is a design limitation of the new print head as opposed to a bug somewhere in the software / firmware.  Here goes.

Use case:

In these conditions, the “too much leading edge offset” happens that will displace your image toward the trailing edge, and cut off a portion of the trailing edge of the image when printed.  There is no mention of this in the User Guide except on page 102 where it talks about a check box labeled “Minimize Top Margin.” (MTM).   What is very disconcerting about this is that the print layout feature of Epson’s Print Layout software, Lightroom’s Print Module and Photoshop’s Print layout visual DO NOT GIVE ANY VISUAL INDICATION that this will happen.  So, if you lay an image out in these applications, and select EBO option, you won’t see the problem until the printer starts printing with a way too large leading edge margin, that then tells you that something is not going right with this print!  You can spell that: frustration, confusion, wasted paper, wasted ink.  Of course once you’ve finally figured this out, you can just NOT DO THAT with cut sheets.  OK, now is when it gets really interesting.  Turns out that if you do check EBO in this “cut sheet feed” use case, AND ALSO check the MTM box, the printer will, in fact move the printing starting point “back closer to the leading edge of the paper.”  When you check the MTM box, you get an alert message that says, “you may get smearing and/or lower image quality” using MTM.  Not encouraging.  But, when I used MTM in conjunction with EBO, I did not get lower image quality or smearing with cut sheets.  My surmise is that this warning is more for roll paper where the initial load-curl could cause this problem.  So, is this a compete fix for the “displaced image that doesn’t show up on the print layout and Print Preview in your application?”  I thought so.  But I was wrong.  While it does shift the starting place of the print head “back toward the leading edge of the paper,” there is no indication of “how much.”  And, if your image size as laid out in your application is still wider/taller than whatever the unknown limit is for “how much toward the leading edge” MTM moves the starting point, your image will still be cut off on the trailing edge to some unknown degree.  “Isn’t that nice?”  NOT.  When I first used EBO in combination with MTM, I though “Ah, that’s the cure.” (Mind you, none of this is documented in the User Guide except for the vague description of MTM in the EBO description on page 102.). But it is NOT the cure.  On closer inspection, I realized that a very small amount of the trailing edge of the image was still cut off.  So, what to do?  Well, unless Epson chooses to do something such as state what the “leading edge margin limitation is” in these conditions, AND has this displayed in the print layout views in the various applications (which I very much doubt they will do since this is a ‘single use case issue’) the only thing left to do, and which I’m in the process of doing is creating an image in photo shop that is an empty box with a stroke border in 3:2 aspect ratio (and others 4;3, etc.) and test printing them on cheap paper to find out what my minimum left and right margins “must be” on any given size cut sheet paper to avoid the problem.  That will lay this issue to rest for me and provide reliable parameters when printing on cut sheets using EBO and MTM.  Clear as mud, right?  LOL     I’d recommend to Epson three things – in case Epson is following this.  First, on Page 102 in the User Guide (and other places where EBO is mentioned) I would change the terminology for “Minimize Top Margin” to “Minimize LEADING EDGE Margin.”  “Top” is meaningless and in fact confusing.  “Top” in relationship to what?  Second, Epson should do their own calculations for the various standard cut sheet sizes and “publish” in the User Guide in this area what the minimum “leading edge margin” must be to avoid the potential for image displacement and trialing edge image cutoff.  A “best case” Epson action would be to change how the layout view operates when the EBO and MTM boxes are selected to visibly show these limitations.  This would be much like Lightroom’s “show edge bleed” function, and how margins cannot be set smaller than the minimum required by the printer.  I suspect that the latter suggestion would be a major PITA to implement, but the former two should be a piece of cake and avoid significant confusion for anyone trying to figure this whole issue out on their own with the current documentation.

OK, if you’re read this far and your eyes have not rolled back into your head, and if you’re interested, I could post my “minimum leading / trailing margin requirements to avoid this situation” when I’m finished testing this unique use case issue. Let me know.  I may be preaching to a choir of one, that would be, “Me.”

Oh, and for the record, this issue has been replicated by Epson in their lab based on my discovery of the situation.  And to their credit, they are responsible for letting me know two very important things.  First, this is not seen as a “bug” by Epson, but rather a “limitation” of the new head design when using EBO with cut sheets.  (Frankly I’m not sure what potential impacts there may be for roll paper use, I’ve not explored that yet.)   Second, I’m sensing that we’ll not see a change in either documentation in the User Guide, nor changes to print layout functionality to make this limitation “visible” i.e., that something has shifted the image toward the tailing edge of the paper.  I hope I’m wrong.  Don’t think I am.

Now, having described this issue, I don’t want anyone to think that I’m “dissing” this printer, Epson, or Epson’s Tech Support personnel.  To the contrary, I’m even more impressed with the printer overall.  It delivers wonderful output with great new features combined with very nice user ergonomics in terms of loading paper, operating the printer etc.  And, the Epson Tech Support team has been flat out amazing in working with me and deserving of much praise!  GREAT listeners, serious about getting issues resolved (as in the new driver release that did fix real bugs), and being appreciative of my help in this lock-down situation where I’ve provided feedback, screen shots, descriptions of behavior, and even screen capture videos and photos of resulting prints.  I’m actually very much enjoying working with them on these things.  And I’m loving the printer more and more as the real problems are ID’d and fixed, and as I get my head wrapped around new things like the Epson Media Installer (EMI) functionality and this “cut sheet EBO MTM issue.”

Rand

EPILOGUE

It is apparent to me, also, that perhaps a majority of folk who buy these printers will be printing principally on roll paper, perhaps especially 9570 owners.  And even when they do print on cut sheets, if they don’t need/want to use the EBO function, they may never even encounter this very limited use case issue.  I get that.  BUT, I’m guessing there may be a lot of people, especially those choosing the 7570 who have a clientele (or personal needs) that will see use of the printer “as much for cut sheets” (and perhaps more) as use of roll paper.  And certainly the EBO feature is really worthwhile for some image types!  I’m very impressed with it.  While my post here may appear like “nit picking fly specks out of the pepper,” or whatever, I thought it was worth presenting in some detail.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: MichaelKoerner on April 25, 2020, 05:08:46 pm
UPDATE
Let me know.  I may be preaching to a choir of one, that would be, “Me.”

Please don't stop preaching. For me, cut sheet capabilities with EBO are important on deciding whether to buy this printer or not.

Thank you (and JRSmit) for your detailed reports so far!
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 25, 2020, 05:19:49 pm
Please don't stop preaching. For me, cut sheet capabilities with EBO are important on deciding whether to buy this printer or not.

Thank you (and JRSmit) for your detailed reports so far!

First, thank you for your comment.  Second, I have no hesitation heartily recommending this printer for use with cut sheets and capitalizing on the EBO feature.  It's merely a matter of finding those "leading edge" margin minimums to avoid the issue. "Finding and understanding" the issue was a big, frustrating, confusing deal (for me at least) but once found and understood, the adjustments necessary to avoid "ever" seeing this issue while printing will be VERY SIMPLE.  I'm working on it now.  The hardest part was designing an "image" in Photoshop that would show the boundary conditions I'd need to "see in print" w/ a minimum of ink expended in running the tests.  I've accomplished that today for 13x19" and 17x22" papers and will be testing in the morning.  It may even end up (actually "should") being merely understanding what "minimum left (leading edge) margin should be used in your printing layout application to avoid this situation.  I'm guessing somewhere in the range of .68 inches at the moment.  If so, I may just make my leading/trailing minimum .75".  If that pans out, I'm done and will never have to think about this issue again.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 25, 2020, 06:59:01 pm
The PPI and DPI are different dimensions. Basically you input the image to the printer in PPI, where the printer expects what is set in the driver,  so 360PPI f.i.
It translates this to DPI , and being CMYK, this is 4 Times the PPI, so in this example 1440DPI.
The scp75xx/95xx is a 150/300/600 PPI device, thus maximum case is 2400DPI, which is also documented.
Soca bit less than f.i. the scp5000 - 9000 famoly, which has a max of 720PPI > 2880DPI
The Bart vd Wolf testchart for 600PPI is the right choice forcthe SCP75XX/95XX, and it will show the resolutipn of the printer in its different print quality level settings. A very clarifying excercise.

Not sure how it works in the new printers, but the "native ppi" in all the Epson printers I've used comes from the driver, not the marking engine (engineer-talk for the printer hardware). Before halftoning, the Epson driver resamples the input contone image, using nearest neighbor. You don't want that, so you figure out what the driver is going to resample the image to, and you send the image to the driver at that resolution, so that the driver won't damage the image when it resamples. In the older printers, that was either 360 or 720 ppi. The resolution of the marking engine was an interger multiplication away from that, which is probably why Epson picked those values. The new printer has different marking engine resolution, and therefore probably different contone resampling resolution, and that's probably 300/600 ppi. But I haven't tested the new drivers.

This resampling before halftoning is unnecessary, and is a pain for users to deal with. There are other Epson printer halftoners that don't resample before diffusion dither (plus blue noise) halftoning. ImagePrint is one of those. I'm guessing Epson does it to make the computations easier.

Jim
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 26, 2020, 02:03:48 am
I use Bart van der Wolfs printer resolution image, and the scp9000 goes to 720PPI with driver set to print quality level=5 and fine details=on. ( Lightroom -> native Epson driver)
The scp9500 goes to 600PPI (almost) with the same settings.
I also use a black and white checkered pattern with varying size black blocks, smallest being 1by2 pixels, and also quite revealing in print-resolution.
I did also try Mirage 4 (Dinax) and in the resolution limit it behaved different from the Lightroom->Epson driver (native) chain. As if it placed a bit more black ink, sort if increase in dotgain. Mirage 4 is not using the native Epson driver, it’s ‘connection point’ looks like it is the printer firmware, using some Epson SDK.

Does ImagePrint also bypass the native print driver?

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 26, 2020, 02:23:11 am
Hmm ImagePrint does not support the new Epson printers.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: dchew on April 26, 2020, 10:11:11 am
Hmm ImagePrint does not support the new Epson printers.

I reached out to John Ponnazzo a few weeks ago. He is still waiting on a printer for development. It is still his plan to support these as soon as possible.

At that time, the drivers were still in fix-it mode, as reported by you, Rand and others. Frankly that was a primary input to my recent decision to go with the Canon 4100 vs the 9570.

I can say that yes, ImagePrint Black bypasses the native driver. ImagePrint Red does not.

Dave
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 26, 2020, 10:47:57 am
I use Bart van der Wolfs printer resolution image, and the scp9000 goes to 720PPI with driver set to print quality level=5 and fine details=on. ( Lightroom -> native Epson driver)
The scp9500 goes to 600PPI (almost) with the same settings.
I also use a black and white checkered pattern with varying size black blocks, smallest being 1by2 pixels, and also quite revealing in print-resolution.
I did also try Mirage 4 (Dinax) and in the resolution limit it behaved different from the Lightroom->Epson driver (native) chain. As if it placed a bit more black ink, sort if increase in dotgain. Mirage 4 is not using the native Epson driver, it’s ‘connection point’ looks like it is the printer firmware, using some Epson SDK.

I'm not sure how what you said relates to driver resampling before halftoning. What do you mean by "goes to"? If you send the driver a 360 ppi image, for the scp9500, do you see aliasing in the output?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 26, 2020, 11:14:17 am
I meant to say the upper limit is 600PPI
So in Lightroom i set in the print panel the PPI setting 600, so it sends  the file to the driver rescaled(mostly uprezzed) to 600PPI.
For my SCP9000 this then is 720PPI

For both printers  with the appropriate test image i have aliasing patterns, visuallly a bit more pronounced with the SCP9500, perhaps because of its lower resolution, which in this usecase is
not insignificant.
The print sharpening setting in Lightroom also has a role in this of course.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 26, 2020, 11:23:05 am
I meant to say the upper limit is 600PPI
So in Lightroom i set in the print panel the PPI setting 600, so it sends  the file to the driver rescaled(mostly uprezzed) to 600PPI.
For my SCP9000 this then is 720PPI

For both printers  with the appropriate test image i have aliasing patterns, visuallly a bit more pronounced with the SCP9500, perhaps because of its lower resolution, which in this usecase is
not insignificant.
The print sharpening setting in Lightroom also has a role in this of course.

So I think you're saying that Lr thinks the driver is resampling to 600 ppi. Is that right? Have you looked at what the driver actually is doing?

If you send the printer an unaliased image at the driver's native contone resampling resolution, you should not see aliasing, since the driver won't be resampling.

Print sharpening in Lr won't affect whether the image is resampled in the driver or not, nor will it affect the resampled contone image resolution.

Jim
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on April 26, 2020, 01:49:04 pm
Please don't stop preaching. For me, cut sheet capabilities with EBO are important on deciding whether to buy this printer or not.

Thank you (and JRSmit) for your detailed reports so far!

Hello again . . .

Rather than try to duplicate my long-winded post on PhotoPXL, here's the link to my final testing re the Enhanced Black Overcoat issue:

https://photopxl.com/forums/topic/new-series-epson-printers/page/5/#post-19377

As it turns out, the new driver also fixes any "mystery" about the left (leading margin), so the bottom line is the fix is VERY SIMPLE. 

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 27, 2020, 05:45:50 am
Interesting point you mentioned about aliasing, sharpening.

Well i use the images Bart van der Wolf published on LuLa forum in 2015:

Here are the links to the updated/tweaked TIFF versions, I'll remove the PNGs to avoid confusion:
Test target for 600 PPI printers (e.g. Canon / HP)
Test target for 720 PPI printers (e.g. Epson)

And those images do show aliasing when sharpened in Lightroom of Photoshop.

Also I printed in Lightroom at 600 PPI and printsharpening OFF, a set of 4 of the 600PPI test target, one at 130.0mm, one at 130.01mm, one at 129.9mm and one at 130.1mm
Very difficult to visually see differences, the 130.1 perhaps the one with the least aliasing effects.
Also printed to file, this shows none of the aliases I see in the print.
So to test, in Lightroom I applied sharpening to the test target, and at sharpening level of around 11
- 16, and playing with detail, radius, I get aliasing artefacts similar to that of the print.
Note: if I do nn resizing I get vertical Artefact in part 5 and 8 , which I do not see in the print, so there is no NN form of rescaling. In PSci tried different rescaling algoritms, but none would give a result similar to what I see on print.
So for now the conclusion is that the scp95xx does some sharpening in the Epson part of the pipeline.
Another negative point for me, I regret to say.

Would like to see others do test with this test target as well.

Will figure out how I can best digitize the print result, when successfull I will add these to the post.






So I think you're saying that Lr thinks the driver is resampling to 600 ppi. Is that right? Have you looked at what the driver actually is doing?

If you send the printer an unaliased image at the driver's native contone resampling resolution, you should not see aliasing, since the driver won't be resampling.

Print sharpening in Lr won't affect whether the image is resampled in the driver or not, nor will it affect the resampled contone image resolution.

Jim
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 27, 2020, 12:51:31 pm

Here are the links to the updated/tweaked TIFF versions, I'll remove the PNGs to avoid confusion:
Test target for 600 PPI printers (e.g. Canon / HP)
Test target for 720 PPI printers (e.g. Epson)

Sorry, but I don't see the links.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 27, 2020, 01:12:56 pm
Interesting point you mentioned about aliasing, sharpening.

Well i use the images Bart van der Wolf published on LuLa forum in 2015:

Here are the links to the updated/tweaked TIFF versions, I'll remove the PNGs to avoid confusion:
Test target for 600 PPI printers (e.g. Canon / HP)
Test target for 720 PPI printers (e.g. Epson)

And those images do show aliasing when sharpened in Lightroom of Photoshop.



I found the targets here:

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=99905.0

And you are right; there is aliasing in both targets, so we can't use the presence or absence of aliasing as a test for whether the driver is resampling or not with those targets.

Jim
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 28, 2020, 02:16:02 am
In previous post I mentioned it looks like some sharpening is applied somewhere in the Epson pipeline.
Attached are 2 photos of the print of a res chart printed at 600PPI
First one shows the chart completely (13 by13cm)
Second one a close up of the center of the Siemens star of sinus waves (not just black lines).
In the first photo you se. in the part marked with “4” a small variation in what should be equally spaced lines.
In the close up you see aliasing artefacts that are really there. You also see the “lines” not really reaching the 600PPI mark. Partly because of the limited resolution of the iPad camera, partly because it is true.

To simulate those artefacts I played with sharpening in Lightroom and at setting between 11 and 16 I get a very similar result.

Also : Note that the center shows a sort of oval variation in blackness, this is a sign of a not perfect head alignment. I have not been able to get it completely round yet.

What I will do today is print the res chart with different PPI settings in Lightroom (I use W10 as platform) by scaling the size differently, and copy the resulting PPI in the print setting. But the Epson setting will be quality level 5 and fine details set to ON (600PPI/2400DPI) This to see how the Epson pipeline will deal with this.

In photoshop if you rescale this res chart  with NN it will show strong vertical and horizontal bars.
Therefore if the pipeline rescaled with NN it is logic that these bars will appear.

First a coffee ;-)


Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 28, 2020, 10:19:45 am

What I will do today is print the res chart with different PPI settings in Lightroom (I use W10 as platform) by scaling the size differently, and copy the resulting PPI in the print setting. But the Epson setting will be quality level 5 and fine details set to ON (600PPI/2400DPI) This to see how the Epson pipeline will deal with this.

In photoshop if you rescale this res chart  with NN it will show strong vertical and horizontal bars.
Therefore if the pipeline rescaled with NN it is logic that these bars will appear.



You might want to try a simpler target:

https://blog.kasson.com/technical/injet-printing-on-epson-part-3/

Jim
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on April 28, 2020, 10:35:25 am
You might want to try a simpler target:

https://blog.kasson.com/technical/injet-printing-on-epson-part-3/

Jim
Hi Jim, those sets of lines are included in the print res testchart I use.
I also use a checkerboard like image, but with varying sizes black blocks, smallest being 1x2 pixels. This is my quick acid test. The print res chart i use for more in depth analysis.

Being trying to get consistent output today, no such luck. The driver version 6.72 is not sticky, so I printed 3 times , made sure all the settings were set, yet 3 different outputs. One is dramatically different. The outlier I cannot reproduce. It is a weird printer.
I found a way to save the settings, and this looks like I get consistent prints now. But also dealing with customers, so in between I am doing testprints.

The rescaling appears not to be NN but more like the preserve details 2.0  in Photoshop.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jim Kasson on April 28, 2020, 11:12:39 am
The rescaling appears not to be NN but more like the preserve details 2.0  in Photoshop.

That would be an improvement.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on May 04, 2020, 09:00:58 am
That would be an improvement.
Will get back on this, i did test, and the outcome is interesting.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on May 04, 2020, 09:01:41 am
Getting very weird now. I cannot get a proper head-alinnment with Velvet Fine Art Print as selected media type. Tried 3 times, no such luck. No change whatsoever in the head-alignment.
Then i selected Fine Art Matte as media type and lo-and-behold head-alignment is way better, still not perfect, but close enough.

The cause, i do not know for sure, but i do know that before i deleted EMI from my computer and did a Factory Reset on my printer, i did "register" via EMI Velvet Fine Art Print. Could it be that the Factory Reset did not clear everything?

Whatever the cause, it is the preferred media type for Hahnemuhle Fine Art Matte papers, which i use a lot, so i am blocked.

I just by telephone reported this to the head of the Dutch Epson office, and made clear that i will make the formal notice active again. I am totally fed-up with this printer, and the way Epson Netherlands is communicating.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: drmrking on May 04, 2020, 03:38:43 pm
Was this an auto head alignment? Did you try manual?
I had that problem with Canson Platine yesterday, failed an auto-alignment.
Did a manual one instead (tedious), but because 99% of the cases is was spot on, was pretty quick to check and enter data.
Afterwards ran the resolution chart to double check alignment and looked good.

Mike
Title: Re: SureColor P9570, indeed 300/600 PPI device, but Head-Alignment not perfect!
Post by: JRSmit on May 05, 2020, 11:41:36 am
SureColor P95xx/75xx, indeed 300/600 PPI device, but Head-Alignment not perfect!

Triggered by Jim Kasson's remark in earlier post, i did the following test to determine the PPI resolution of the SCP95xx printer.
I use W10 and Lightroom Classic, and the 600PPI res-test file of Baert van der Wolf.

I found interesting aliasing artefacts, basically proofing the printer is a 300/600PPI device (translated to 1440/2880 DPI on the print).
But also that the Head-alingment needs some improvement.


In Lightroom print module i placed on an A4 the res-test, with image dimensions adjusted to get different PPI:
567PPI
598PPI
600PPI
602PPI
615PPI
The PPI setting in the print job is set accordingly, and no output sharpening applied. In this way Lightroom creates a print file wih that PPI resolution. To double-check i also did print to file, with the same PPI settings, to be sure that the print output file does not introduce aliasing artefacts.

In the SCP9500 printer driver (v6.72) the print quality setting is set to level=5, Fine Details=ON, the paper edge quality set to Standard, the res-test image centered on the page via the driver, to stay away fromm any paper edge print quality issues, typical for the double-head concept.
As media type i used Epson Premium Glossy 250gsm. In the media settings is the button "custom Settings" that allows you to save your media settings. As i am not using a custom media, this functions ok.
For each PPI value i saved the whole setting in a printjob in Lightroom, and double checked that the settings in the driver stayed as set.
Note that the SCP95/75 driver up to 6.72 is notoriously poor in that respect.

I did a feed-alignment and then a head-alignment, then I issued the print jobs one by one. Prints are on a glossy PE-paper.
Then i found a way to take a picture of the print without introducing aliasing artefacts, by using my 2019 iPAD and with a distance of 7cm it still focused well, and did not introduce visible artefacts. So the artefacts you see in the images are as they are in the print.

The pictures show the center of the "siemens" star, including the 300PPI and 600PPI rings. One picture shows the bottom-left (linksonder) part of the res-test image, there test "4" shows black lines in 4 different directions, and if perfect each quadrant should give an equal greyish impression when viewed from a distance.


Conclusion:
Send files with 300PPI or 600PPI to the printer, else you are in for some negative surprises.
Head-alignment is techniclly speaking close to perfect, BUT, NOT SO FOR THE BLACK INK. Vertical lines get always printed a that fatter than horizontal lines, also some false colors are visible.


The number of attachment is limited to 4, so:

SCP9500-GlossyPaper-598PPI-600PPI-1.jpg :
some horizontal and vertical "vague banding" across the 300PPI ring as well as stronger aliasing artefacts.

SCP9500-GlossyPaper-600PPI-600PPI-1.jpg :
very modest aliasing artefacts. When shown on my EIZO CG248-4K zoomed in 100% is see the same artefacts.
You also see, on the real print a bit better, that the printer resolution , its modulation transfer, sort of is 0 at the 600 PPI ring.

SCP9500-GlossyPaper-615PPI-600PPI-1.jpg :
again several horizontal and vertical "vague banding" across the 300PPI ring as well as stronger aliasing artefacts.

SCP9500-GlossyPaper-600PPI-600PPI-Linksonder-1.jpg:
diagonal lines are almost equal, the vertical lines are fatter than the horizontal lines, and some false color is visible in the horizontal lines.
Note that the aliasing artefacts are quite symmetrical in the "Siemens" star (is composed out of a sinus variation and not just black lines),
but in the center rings one gets a sort of oval impression (more black ink), this is the effect of the not perfect alignment of the Black Ink.

Personally i use primarely Lightroom Classic for printing, and allways have the print output PPI setting set to the printer resolution, 300/600 or 360/720 depening on the printer used. I also sometimes use other pinting applications, in these too i set the output PPI accordingly.
So for me  i accept the fact that the SCP95/75 is a 300/600PPI printer.
The only issue left is the Head Alignment, which is not good for the BLACK INK.







Title: Re: SureColor P9570, indeed 300/600 PPI device, but Head-Alignment not perfect!
Post by: Jim Kasson on May 05, 2020, 12:59:19 pm
Conclusion:
Send files with 300PPI or 600PPI to the printer, else you are in for some negative surprises.
<snip>
So for me  i accept the fact that the SCP95/75 is a 300/600PPI printer.

Thank you for doing this. I think what you have demonstrated is that the Epson driver resamples to 300/600 ppi, not anything about the printer itself.

Jim
Title: Re: SureColor P9570, indeed 300/600 PPI device, but Head-Alignment not perfect!
Post by: Jim Kasson on May 05, 2020, 01:03:17 pm

I found interesting aliasing artefacts, basically proofing the printer is a 300/600PPI device (translated to 1440/2880 DPI on the print).

Are you sure about the marking engine resolution? That would be a departure from the way the other Epson drivers work. I would expect the printer to be a 1200/2400 dpi printer.

Jim

Title: Re: SureColor P9570, indeed 300/600 PPI device, but Head-Alignment not perfect!
Post by: JRSmit on May 05, 2020, 03:52:07 pm
Hi Jim,

it is 1200/2400DPI, i attached a photo (iPad) of a print where FineDetails are OFF. Yet there are some aliasing artefacts visible in te range from 300PPI/1200DPI to 600PPI/2400DPI. So the printer has resolution in that range, although there is no "siemens" star data because of the downrez to 300PPI of the image prior being converted to dpi. So by mine understanding the the marking engine is 1200/2400 DPI, as it is in essence quad-tone, the PPI resolution is 1/4 so 300/600 PPI.

Or are we talking about different things?


Are you sure about the marking engine resolution? That would be a departure from the way the other Epson drivers work. I would expect the printer to be a 1200/2400 dpi printer.

Jim
Title: Re: SureColor P9570, indeed 300/600 PPI device, but Head-Alignment not perfect!
Post by: Jim Kasson on May 06, 2020, 10:36:29 am
Hi Jim,

it is 1200/2400DPI, i attached a photo (iPad) of a print where FineDetails are OFF. Yet there are some aliasing artefacts visible in te range from 300PPI/1200DPI to 600PPI/2400DPI. So the printer has resolution in that range, although there is no "siemens" star data because of the downrez to 300PPI of the image prior being converted to dpi. So by mine understanding the the marking engine is 1200/2400 DPI, as it is in essence quad-tone, the PPI resolution is 1/4 so 300/600 PPI.

Or are we talking about different things?

We are now on the same page with the marking engine resolution. However, the halftoning algorithms used by Epson printers is not anything that could be called "quad-tone", but is error diffusion with blue noise dither. It is an error to discuss the resolution of the marking engine in ppi. The marking engine has no knowledge of the contone resolution of the image, and therefore its resolution should be expressed in dpi.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570, indeed 300/600 PPI device, but Head-Alignment not perfect!
Post by: JRSmit on May 06, 2020, 02:46:07 pm
We are now on the same page with the marking engine resolution. However, the halftoning algorithms used by Epson printers is not anything that could be called "quad-tone", but is error diffusion with blue noise dither. It is an error to discuss the resolution of the marking engine in ppi. The marking engine has no knowledge of the contone resolution of the image, and therefore its resolution should be expressed in dpi.
You are right, wrt to the dpi. W.r.t. to the halftoning algoritms , that is beyond my understanding, but in essence it is a cmyk print system, that is what i ment with quad-tone.

What i am referring to with PPI is the PPI of the image/photo that is put into the pipe-line. This is what in Lightroom print module the output PPI setting is used for. And what is apparently expected by the printer driver at the input side. The test i did show that if you do not provide the 300PPI or 600PPI in the image/photo to be printed, in the pipe-line somewhere funny things happen.
The dpi setting is done in the driver with the Print Quality Level setting, and there it "talks" about dpi.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570, indeed 300/600 PPI device, but Head-Alignment not perfect!
Post by: Jim Kasson on May 06, 2020, 03:10:44 pm
You are right, wrt to the dpi. W.r.t. to the halftoning algoritms , that is beyond my understanding, but in essence it is a cmyk print system, that is what i ment with quad-tone.

What i am referring to with PPI is the PPI of the image/photo that is put into the pipe-line. This is what in Lightroom print module the output PPI setting is used for. And what is apparently expected by the printer driver at the input side. The test i did show that if you do not provide the 300PPI or 600PPI in the image/photo to be printed, in the pipe-line somewhere funny things happen.
The dpi setting is done in the driver with the Print Quality Level setting, and there it "talks" about dpi.

The 7570 is not a CMYK printer. The inkset is more complex than that. I agree about not letting the driver do the resampling, but doing it yourself or letting Lr do it. I wish the Epson driver didn't resample, but it does.

Jim
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: dchew on May 07, 2020, 06:06:42 am
Guys,
Thank you very much for this discussion. It has significantly helped my understanding of how the printing engine works.

Dave
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on May 07, 2020, 09:34:52 am
Guys,
Thank you very much for this discussion. It has significantly helped my understanding of how the printing engine works.

Dave

+1

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: unesco on May 30, 2020, 01:20:40 pm
Hi all,

Any new good news about printing on non-Epson glossy baryta media e.g. HM or Ilford? I have quite a big stock of Harman Gloss Baryta (incl. warmtone version) which are my best papers for B&W and would like to continue using them.

There must be something in this since I have checked Epson Digigraphie web page and these new printers has been added to the list of certified printers for Digigraphie standard but with annotation: "SureColor SC-P7500 (currently only EPSON certified media)"

I just wonder about going to higher formats from my current 17 inch and now I am stuck between P7000 and P7500 but not want to be a beta tester (also for Z9).

Any thoughts will be very appreciated. The new Sure Color series looks as a dream machine on paper... if it works properly...
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on May 30, 2020, 04:07:35 pm
No news.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: allanworden@btinternet.com on June 22, 2020, 12:47:17 pm
Thank you to those who have shared their experiences with this printer. I replaced a broken Canon ipf 5100 for my own use (a complete indulgence), lockdown saved me from having many of the issues listed in the preceding pages but I seem to have a number of issues I hope someone can help me solve, Epson are silent on the issue I have raised with them!
1  I am using up A4 sheets and am having difficulty getting them loaded straight; most of the time they will lean to the right.
2  I cannot get Epson Print Layout to work with this machine, I have asked Epson if it is supposed to work with this model & if so how, a week later no reply apart from an acknowledgement that I have asked the question. This is the Print Layout which is supposed to a plugin for Adobe PS and LrC.
3  I have made a number of custom media and registered them with  the machine and these have been retained (i.e. are sticky), unhappily Custom Settings in the Media Settings of the printer properties panel disappear when the computer has been switched off.
4  Print Preview shows upside down (with sheet feed) and cannot be rotated; not much of a problem, I tend to have this on because I cannot  rely on the printer to do what I want.

I cannot fault the prints but these issues are a real pain, any help greatly appreciated.
Allan
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on June 22, 2020, 01:25:18 pm
See my inserted comments below.
Rand

Thank you to those who have shared their experiences with this printer. I replaced a broken Canon ipf 5100 for my own use (a complete indulgence), lockdown saved me from having many of the issues listed in the preceding pages but I seem to have a number of issues I hope someone can help me solve, Epson are silent on the issue I have raised with them!
1  I am using up A4 sheets and am having difficulty getting them loaded straight; most of the time they will lean to the right.

I assume you're using the top loading door / slot for the paper loading?  It should have a nice "stop" when you open the door, and just set the paper in the feed slot.  Are you saying that when you do this, the paper sits at a distinct angle away from vertical?  If so, it would sound like something is badly aligned in the printer's sheet feed mechanism.  This is one of the features of this printer that I appreciate most - the simple and straightforward sheet feed mechanism.  Yours may just be "broken."

2  I cannot get Epson Print Layout to work with this machine, I have asked Epson if it is supposed to work with this model & if so how, a week later no reply apart from an acknowledgement that I have asked the question. This is the Print Layout which is supposed to a plugin for Adobe PS and LrC. 

I've used Epson Print layout successfully from PS (Windows OS).  But honestly I don't know why you'd prefer that to Lightroom's excellent Print Module which incorporates output sharpening, while Epson's Print Layout utility does not.

3  I have made a number of custom media and registered them with  the machine and these have been retained (i.e. are sticky), unhappily Custom Settings in the Media Settings of the printer properties panel disappear when the computer has been switched off.   

No comment on this one.  Once I have the printer / drivers settings as I like them for any given paper / size / feed / resolution, etc., I create a print template for it in Lightroom. 

4  Print Preview shows upside down (with sheet feed) and cannot be rotated; not much of a problem, I tend to have this on because I cannot  rely on the printer to do what I want.

On the print preview, it will always show "leading edge down" the way it feeds though the printer.  I think what you're seeing may be completely normal.  Again, I'm a Windows person so YMMV.

I cannot fault the prints but these issues are a real pain, any help greatly appreciated.
Allan
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: allanworden@btinternet.com on June 23, 2020, 04:13:01 pm
Rand, Thanks for your swift reply.

1 I assume you're using the top loading door / slot for the paper loading?  It should have a nice "stop" when you open the door, and just set the paper in the feed slot.  Are you saying that when you do this, the paper sits at a distinct angle away from vertical?  If so, it would sound like something is badly aligned in the printer's sheet feed mechanism.  This is one of the features of this printer that I appreciate most - the simple and straightforward sheet feed mechanism.  Yours may just be "broken."

That is correct. About 3 times out of 10 the paper loads either leaning to the right, or, moves left about 2mm and skews. It appears to be better with a stiffer, heavier paper. It seems as though the roller might be eccentric. I will have to have a meaningful dialogue with Epson.

2 I've used Epson Print layout successfully from PS (Windows OS).  But honestly I don't know why you'd prefer that to Lightroom's excellent Print Module which incorporates output sharpening, while Epson's Print Layout utility does not.

I use LrC Print Module, and Mirage, since the Epson Print Layout does not work I have no idea if it is advantageous or not. I am using the latest Win 10 Printer Driver Ver. 6.73. At this price I expect software to work even if I decide not to use it. I am grateful you confirm it is supposed to work with this printer!

3 No comment on this one.  Once I have the printer / drivers settings as I like them for any given paper / size / feed / resolution, etc., I create a print template for it in Lightroom.

I have followed your advice and created templates for size, paper, quality for 2 different media and thus 2 different profiles. It seems to work, even after re-starting the computer. Now to do the rest of the templates, pity they can't be duplicated then edited. I thought I knew LrC pretty well; now I no more, thanks.


4  On the print preview, it will always show "leading edge down" the way it feeds though the printer.  I think what you're seeing may be completely normal.  Again, I'm a Windows person so YMMV.

My mistake! The view menu in Print Preview allows for flipping.


With thanks & kind regards
Allan

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on June 23, 2020, 04:42:24 pm
Rand, Thanks for your swift reply.



I have followed your advice and created templates for size, paper, quality for 2 different media and thus 2 different profiles. It seems to work, even after re-starting the computer. Now to do the rest of the templates, pity they can't be duplicated then edited. I thought I knew LrC pretty well; now I no more, thanks.

With thanks & kind regards
Allan

You can build from one template to another.   Select one that has the most attributes similar to the one you want to create.  Use page set up to change whatever is different. Then just hit the + to create/save the new one. I do it all the time. I have multiples for given paper type, ICC profile, print quality etc.  Then I'll build for different paper sizes, landscape & portrait orientation, etc.  I leave print resolution unchecked in all templates since it is image dependent. 

Rand.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: allanworden@btinternet.com on June 26, 2020, 12:53:05 pm
Quote
You can build from one template to another.   Select one that has the most attributes similar to the one you want to create.  Use page set up to change whatever is different. Then just hit the + to create/save the new one. I do it all the time. I have multiples for given paper type, ICC profile, print quality etc.  Then I'll build for different paper sizes, landscape & portrait orientation, etc.  I leave print resolution unchecked in all templates since it is image dependent.

Thanks again Rand works for me too!

Allan
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on June 27, 2020, 06:27:00 am
You can build from one template to another.   Select one that has the most attributes similar to the one you want to create.  Use page set up to change whatever is different. Then just hit the + to create/save the new one. I do it all the time. I have multiples for given paper type, ICC profile, print quality etc.  Then I'll build for different paper sizes, landscape & portrait orientation, etc.  I leave print resolution unchecked in all templates since it is image dependent. 

Rand.

Hi Rand, why do you leave print resolution unchecked?
I prefer to set it, so that LR does the uprezzing, as the driver uprezzing is quite poor. Also the printer expects files to be of the ppi value you choose in the driver, so for a scp5000 360 or 720 ppi.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 27, 2020, 06:36:08 am
Hi Rand, why do you leave print resolution unchecked?
I prefer to set it, so that LR does the uprezzing, as the driver uprezzing is quite poor. Also the printer expects files to be of the ppi value you choose in the driver, so for a scp5000 360 or 720 ppi.

As I recall, that is Jeff Schewe's recommendation as well: let LR upres to 360 or 720 ppi (Epson), depending where you're starting from.

Jeremy
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on June 27, 2020, 06:41:56 am
And forcthe 75xx/95xx 300/600ppi. See also acprevipus post on print engine resolution.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on June 27, 2020, 09:03:45 am
Hi Rand, why do you leave print resolution unchecked?
I prefer to set it, so that LR does the uprezzing, as the driver uprezzing is quite poor. Also the printer expects files to be of the ppi value you choose in the driver, so for a scp5000 360 or 720 ppi.

Hi, Jan . . .

I leave the resolution box unchecked when creating a print template in Lightroom because that setting is image dependent.  I’ll set 300/600 for the 7570 based on the native resolution of the image at any given paper / image-on-that-paper size.  My intent is to have the LR print template “make me make a choice” - rather than have one choice baked into the template.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on June 27, 2020, 09:09:26 am
As I recall, that is Jeff Schewe's recommendation as well: let LR upres to 360 or 720 ppi (Epson), depending where you're starting from.

Jeremy

Jeremy,

Exactly correct and that’s my work-flow also for P5000 and P600.  For the 75xx/95xx the correct values are 300/600 based on the printer’s resolution.  But most important re Jan’s question above is that I was making reference to when I make Print Templates in Lightroom.  Not that “I don’t check that box while printing.”  I very much love how good LR is at doing the up/down sampling on the fly.  Jeff Schewe has been my unknowing mentor for a very long time.  His books are a tour de force for all things digital.  I even got to meet  him once in Death Valley at workshop there. 

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on June 27, 2020, 10:15:26 am
Hi, Jan . . .

I leave the resolution box unchecked when creating a print template in Lightroom because that setting is image dependent.  I’ll set 300/600 for the 7570 based on the native resolution of the image at any given paper / image-on-that-paper size.  My intent is to have the LR print template “make me make a choice” - rather than have one choice baked into the template.

Rand

Is what i assumed 😎👌
The only thing I am not sure about with the scp95xx is if it has the same color behaviour with different print quality level settings. In February it was not the case. Have not tested it since.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on June 27, 2020, 10:39:45 am
Is what i assumed 😎👌
The only thing I am not sure about with the scp95xx is if it has the same color behaviour with different print quality level settings. In February it was not the case. Have not tested it since.

Yes, several driver/firmware changes since release!
Did you ever have the opportunity to take a look at the evaluation print I sent you?

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on June 27, 2020, 10:43:55 am
Hi Rand, it is on my evaluation table, have to divide my time between customers, the dispute with Epson, and research like evaluating your print. Initial impression is fine.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 27, 2020, 02:50:57 pm
Exactly correct and that’s my work-flow also for P5000 and P600.  For the 75xx/95xx the correct values are 300/600 based on the printers resolution.  But most important re Jan’s question above is that I was making reference to when I make Print Templates in Lightroom.  Not that “I don’t check that box while printing.”  I very much love how good LR is at doing the up/down sampling on the fly.  Jeff Schewe has been my unknowing mentor for a very long time.  His books are a tour de force for all things digital.  I even got to meet  him once in Death Valley at workshop there. 

I understand now. That's seems eminently sensible.

Jeremy
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: StuartR on July 07, 2020, 07:49:25 am
I am curious...can anyone speak to whether the lower resolution is visible in any meaningful way? I am sure there is not a difference on large prints, but what about small prints at high resolution? Sometimes when I am working for museum shows, I am asked to mimic darkroom prints for contact prints or small prints from large negatives, the 2880/720dpi workflow helps maximize the sharpness and tonality and matches a darkroom print a bit better than 1440/360. This is mostly visible in very fine detail such as fence posts or power lines etc. I think the lower resolution is probably a good trade off for a faster more reliable print head (assuming it is more reliable), but I was curious if anyone who has a lot of experience with the P9000 at high resolution could let me know if there is a meaningful difference.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on July 07, 2020, 09:16:20 am
I am curious...can anyone speak to whether the lower resolution is visible in any meaningful way? I am sure there is not a difference on large prints, but what about small prints at high resolution? Sometimes when I am working for museum shows, I am asked to mimic darkroom prints for contact prints or small prints from large negatives, the 2880/720dpi workflow helps maximize the sharpness and tonality and matches a darkroom print a bit better than 1440/360. This is mostly visible in very fine detail such as fence posts or power lines etc. I think the lower resolution is probably a good trade off for a faster more reliable print head (assuming it is more reliable), but I was curious if anyone who has a lot of experience with the P9000 at high resolution could let me know if there is a meaningful difference.

Hi StuartR,

I’m not sure what it is you mean by “lower resolution?”  Could you clarify?  The 75xx/95xx printers are 2400x1200 printers.  If you’re asking if this difference (i.e., the 7000/9000 printers being 2880x1440) is visible in prints - my answer would be no.  Perhaps with a loupe one might see a difference - but in side by side prints at say 17x22” I can say that I cannot see any visible difference resolution-wise. 

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: soboyle on July 07, 2020, 11:32:58 am
Thanks for the blow by blow details of doing Epson's beta testing for them. It sounds like most of the bugs are now worked out of the P7570.

I'm new to large format printers, current printer is the 3880, I'm researching 24" printers for printing on lighter weight papers, in the 75 to 150 gsm weight, for use in large artists books/folios. Papers such as Ilford Washi Torinoko fine art (110 gsm) or Hiromi Asuka (75 gsm). Any thoughts or experience on how the P7570 or P7000 will handle these papers, both roll and cut sheets? Some of the paper feed/skew comments on the 7570 make me nervous.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on July 07, 2020, 01:43:10 pm
I am curious...can anyone speak to whether the lower resolution is visible in any meaningful way? I am sure there is not a difference on large prints, but what about small prints at high resolution? Sometimes when I am working for museum shows, I am asked to mimic darkroom prints for contact prints or small prints from large negatives, the 2880/720dpi workflow helps maximize the sharpness and tonality and matches a darkroom print a bit better than 1440/360. This is mostly visible in very fine detail such as fence posts or power lines etc. I think the lower resolution is probably a good trade off for a faster more reliable print head (assuming it is more reliable), but I was curious if anyone who has a lot of experience with the P9000 at high resolution could let me know if there is a meaningful difference.
It depends on the image resolution, the higher the pixels per inch of the print, the more it will become visible, certainly in A-B comparison. Not so much on the visibility of fine Details, at normal viewing distance they are not explicitly visible. It is more the total impression, the tonal transitions, the dimensionality.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: StuartR on July 07, 2020, 01:46:34 pm
Thank you Jan,
That is basically what I am asking...I shoot a lot of 8x10 and 4x5 as well as high resolution digital, and some of the prints I make are small, so I am often able to print at the full 720 dpi, and as I described, when doing museum work of a similar nature, I have found that the higher resolution does help the print match the darkroom prints better. In any case, it sounds like I will need to run my own test to see how much of a difference it makes when looking closely at the prints. I am aware that any difference would most likely not be visible from more than a half meter or meter away.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on July 07, 2020, 02:00:40 pm
Stuart, that is like i experience it. I did a test with a portrait of a goede (head). Printed about 9by12inches on Fine Art Matte (Hahnemuhle Hemp) , it was quite easily visible. Image was a 50 Megapixel one.
Mind you when feed- and head alignment are done well, the resolution is quite close to that of glossy papers.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on July 07, 2020, 02:13:26 pm
Thank you Jan,
That is basically what I am asking...I shoot a lot of 8x10 and 4x5 as well as high resolution digital, and some of the prints I make are small, so I am often able to print at the full 720 dpi, and as I described, when doing museum work of a similar nature, I have found that the higher resolution does help the print match the darkroom prints better. In any case, it sounds like I will need to run my own test to see how much of a difference it makes when looking closely at the prints. I am aware that any difference would most likely not be visible from more than a half meter or meter away.

Stuart,

Stating the obvious here, just in the name of being thorough.  With the 75xx/95xx printers you print at either 300/600.  So for higher resolution images you can (should) use 600.  As I said, in a “blind test” at anything other than “loupe inspection” type pixel peeping, I’m reasonably sure you’d not see any difference at all (and maybe not then either). As an example, on 17x22” prints made of Bill Atkinson’s printer test image, I printed from my P5000 (360/720) and then identically from my P7570 (300/600) the prints were identical except that I think the tonal transitions, dMax, detail in shadows, etc. was superior on the 7570 “from across the room.”  My wife is always my “blind tester.”  I had her take a look at the prints side by side under my 4700k solux lit inspection wall and asked her which she preferred and why.  (She’s an artist / painter.)  Her evaluation matched mine down to the comments I made above, completely unsolicited.

I’d be happy to send you a print made from one of your own files, if you’d like.  If so, PM me and we can make arrangments. 

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on July 07, 2020, 02:35:40 pm
Thanks for the blow by blow details of doing Epson's beta testing for them. It sounds like most of the bugs are now worked out of the P7570.

I'm new to large format printers, current printer is the 3880, I'm researching 24" printers for printing on lighter weight papers, in the 75 to 150 gsm weight, for use in large artists books/folios. Papers such as Ilford Washi Torinoko fine art (110 gsm) or Hiromi Asuka (75 gsm). Any thoughts or experience on how the P7570 or P7000 will handle these papers, both roll and cut sheets? Some of the paper feed/skew comments on the 7570 make me nervous.
Getting the paper feed correct, the head alignment correct and the correct platen suction is the basis for fine results, and even more critical with dual head. Do check the paper thickness as well!
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: StuartR on July 07, 2020, 04:01:59 pm
Thank you all, and thank you Rand for the kind offer. My local dealer has a 9500 in his offices, so I will be able to run my own tests at some point, but it is helpful to hear your thoughts. I am asking more from curiosity than any expectations the the results will be noticeably worse.

Regarding very thin papers for bookmaking, I have made artist books using Awagami papers on the P9000 and did an exhibition of my work on 170x220cm scroll paper at 45gsm (using two rolls and combinging them banner style). The handling of very light and very thick papers is a big concern for me as well, and the more automatic and closed gap loading are less features than worries for me. I would rather have a more open and transparent manual loading system, rather than one that is more automated, as these printers tend to do whatever they feel like at all times anyway...if it works, it is great, but when it does not, it leaves you with very little you can do about it.

So suffice to say I will be testing the Awagami papers and Hahnemühle papers to see how they are handled. I have used Epson papers perhaps five or ten times in the last twelve years of doing this professionally. If the P9500 cannot handle fine art media, then it is worthless to me and my clients. My hopes are pretty high that it will handle them just fine, however. 
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on July 07, 2020, 04:09:16 pm
This may be helpful.  Paper thickness setting range of 75xx/95xx from manual:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-4V9f39n/0/384fa95e/L/i-4V9f39n-L.jpg)

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: StuartR on July 10, 2020, 07:45:57 pm
Thank you Rand. Glad to hear that it can be set up handle very thin papers. Now it just needs to be tested to see how well it does with them!

By the way, can anyone speak to the noise of the printer? Is it quieter than the P9000? I saw one in action briefly, and it seemed quieter than the P9000, but it could have been the acoustics of the space. My printer is located behind my computer, and I have to admit that the vacuum is rather annoying, particularly if I have to field phone calls for clients. I would love a quieter printer...
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on July 10, 2020, 07:52:34 pm
Thank you Rand. Glad to hear that it can be set up handle very thin papers. Now it just needs to be tested to see how well it does with them!

By the way, can anyone speak to the noise of the printer? Is it quieter than the P9000? I saw one in action briefly, and it seemed quieter than the P9000, but it could have been the acoustics of the space. My printer is located behind my computer, and I have to admit that the vacuum is rather annoying, particularly if I have to field phone calls for clients. I would love a quieter printer...

I’ve not had a 9000 but it is very quiet, IMO.  I could easily be on the phone right next to it w/ no issues.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on July 11, 2020, 04:52:47 am
Noise is different, but not less to my ears. The only thing less is the lack of the very noisy INK pressure pump of the sc-p70xx/90xx. But this pump is only intermittendly active.
The sc-p9500 also hinders during telephone calls.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: StuartR on July 11, 2020, 05:08:58 am
Thank you both!
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: rxchaos on July 19, 2020, 05:11:22 pm
There's been much discussion about the P9570/9500 printer and problems associated with it.

My P9570 was delivered and installed a few days ago.  Here're some notes with regard to some issues posted on this thread...

- The version of Epson Media Installer (EMI) that got installed with the Drivers and Utilities Combo Package Installer" (on Epson's USA website) is version 1.1.2. The bundle has a Jan 7th 2020 date. The text on the download link makes no mention of EMI.

- The version of the driver mentioned in the installer is 10.37; but what is really installed is 10.65.  I wish Epson updated the description to reflect the correct information

- EMI 1.1.2 appears to be working the way it should.  Custom media settings created using the EMI on the Mac can now be stored on the printer. And, the custom media that was created is visible in the 'Media Type' pulldown menu of the print dialog of Photoshop and other applications.

- The sheet feeder seems to feed sheets without skewing them.

I've only made a few test prints on matte paper and am yet to try gloss papers and the Black Enhance Overcoat feature.

Thank you Rand47 and JRSmit for your detailed posts.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on July 19, 2020, 09:20:01 pm
There's been much discussion about the P9570/9500 printer and problems associated with it.

My P9570 was delivered and installed a few days ago.  Here're some notes with regard to some issues posted on this thread...

- The version of Epson Media Installer (EMI) that got installed with the Drivers and Utilities Combo Package Installer" (on Epson's USA website) is version 1.1.2. The bundle has a Jan 7th 2020 date. The text on the download link makes no mention of EMI.

- The version of the driver mentioned in the installer is 10.37; but what is really installed is 10.65.  I wish Epson updated the description to reflect the correct information

- EMI 1.1.2 appears to be working the way it should.  Custom media settings created using the EMI on the Mac can now be stored on the printer. And, the custom media that was created is visible in the 'Media Type' pulldown menu of the print dialog of Photoshop and other applications.

- The sheet feeder seems to feed sheets without skewing them.

I've only made a few test prints on matte paper and am yet to try gloss papers and the Black Enhance Overcoat feature.

Thank you Rand47 and JRSmit for your detailed posts.

Hi!

You’re very welcome.  Thanks for the kind word.  Glad if any of our “trail blazing” has been of help.  It’s a great printer and once one’s head is wrapped around its operating “differences” - it is very satisfying to work with.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: arobinson7547 on July 28, 2020, 12:26:41 pm
to those that brought the 9570, what did you do about additional ink? did you pretty much have to fork out for a full set at purchase time (adding quite a bit the the initial cost)

The current price is $4,495 which seens pretty good. I was thinking about pulling the trigger but is the starter set enough to make some money with? (enough to get started)
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on July 28, 2020, 01:11:42 pm
to those that brought the 9570, what did you do about additional ink? did you pretty much have to fork out for a full set at purchase time (adding quite a bit the the initial cost)

The current price is $4,495 which seens pretty good. I was thinking about pulling the trigger but is the starter set enough to make some money with? (enough to get started)

The starter ink carts all showed “low” warning when the printer was initialized and charged with ink (7570).   In a production environment I’d say “YES” you need more ink immediately.  For low volume printing, I can say that I made quite a few cut sheet and long-ish roll paper prints before needing to swap out the first cart.   Since then I’m watching the “relative rates” of consumption and sizing the replacement carts accordingly.

But the short answer to your question is YES - you need more ink pretty darn quickly if you’re doing any volume printing at all.  This behavior, however, is absolutely typical of Epson - so there’s no real “change” here from any other Epson printer I’ve purchased over the years.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on July 28, 2020, 03:02:54 pm
How much is a full set of 350 ml inks for the 9570 ? Add that for the real base price cost of your printer.

Yea they are all doing this now, even HP which used to give you a full set of regular carts has gotten really cheap.


The starter ink carts all showed “low” warning when the printer was initialized and charged with ink (7570).   In a production environment I’d say “YES” you need more ink immediately.  For low volume printing, I can say that I made quite a few cut sheet and long-ish roll paper prints before needing to swap out the first cart.   Since then I’m watching the “relative rates” of consumption and sizing the replacement carts accordingly.

But the short answer to your question is YES - you need more ink pretty darn quickly if you’re doing any volume printing at all.  This behavior, however, is absolutely typical of Epson - so there’s no real “change” here from any other Epson printer I’ve purchased over the years.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: arobinson7547 on July 28, 2020, 03:04:56 pm
kind of what I thought,

Thank Rand

Canon has really got me spoiled; 330mm x 12 for 8300/8400. More than enough to make a little money BEFORE you have to shall out. Even the old Epson 9600 wasn't too bad with the size of the starter set.

I just looked it up the 9600 was 110. It 'might' be possible to setup/profile a few medias and do some testing... and have your credit card ready. Although, I'd imagine it would be frustrating if they just emptied one after another and you would be paying a LOT of shipping (and waiting for new ink)

If I do get it, I just can't afford that addition 'middle' sized set, right away.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: arobinson7547 on July 28, 2020, 03:18:27 pm
yea deanwork, you're right.

regardless, it's probably less frustrating to just add it to the base price. So much for $4,495
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: StuartR on July 28, 2020, 09:46:14 pm
If you really want to save, you probably don't need a full set to replace. Certain colors are always much slower to use, such as orange and green. My printer tends to eat light black, photo black, cyan, magenta and light light black. If you have an ability to buy locally, it probably makes more sense to just buy a la carte unless you get a big discount for buying an entire inkset.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: arobinson7547 on July 29, 2020, 03:15:09 am
That reminds me of sometimes when the inks hit there last bar, some inks empty right away and others sit there long enough for you to say, "Drop to zero, already!"

I won't buy the full set, but I will try to budget for it. I can see now that the three sizes are really not a bad idea; say you need three carts and money is tight. It would be a lot easier to buy three smaller ones, to get you buy and then maybe by the next round you could spring for larger sizes.

I wonder it they will put 'one full set of 700mm carts for all P7570/P9570 owners' in the new Stimulus Bill <slow wink>
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on July 29, 2020, 05:04:38 am
Light Grey is the ink that Goes about twice as gast as the average INK consumption. Violet is the least.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on July 29, 2020, 08:13:50 am
Light Grey is the ink that Goes about twice as gast as the average INK consumption. Violet is the least.

+1

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: arobinson7547 on July 29, 2020, 03:53:11 pm
Speaking of Lk, I did have one Rant:

I remember the Canon IPF-5000; on photo paper I remember measuring L*1 for the Black Channel. I was kind of scary, 'cause, well, what happens if you read L* 0? Are you then at the Nexus of the Universe; in a worm hole?

So, the IDEA of POST printing or overcoating to get a good black makes me sick. Why not just formulate the ink K to achieve what you desire? In a Lab, where such a thing belongs. It IS doable. I could even settle for a Rich Black (K with some C usually); but done in one pass.

Am I right in my thinking that these coatings (Canon or Epson) take place as a separate pass or are they about ink order (meaning Lk is sprayed last after the primary color blend to achieve that extra bit of black detail. 
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: StuartR on July 29, 2020, 07:24:05 pm
I am not sure how it lays down the overcoat, but in doing a quick test at my dealer, I did notice that the overcoat did what it says it does...it reduced the gloss differential in the deep shadows. When there was glare on the print, the one without the overcoat appeared slightly more matte in the deep blacks, while in the print with the overcoat, the shine on the paper was uniform. I recall that the difference was not otherwise that obvious, but I will have a look at the prints again in the daylight tomorrow.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on July 29, 2020, 07:51:03 pm
I am not sure how it lays down the overcoat, but in doing a quick test at my dealer, I did notice that the overcoat did what it says it does...it reduced the gloss differential in the deep shadows. When there was glare on the print, the one without the overcoat appeared slightly more matte in the deep blacks, while in the print with the overcoat, the shine on the paper was uniform. I recall that the difference was not otherwise that obvious, but I will have a look at the prints again in the daylight tomorrow.

Data point:   

On this image, e.g., on my 7570.....

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Landscape/Landscapes-1/i-VmZdtCM/1/80b1fbe1/XL/_DSF1423-Master-XL.jpg)
(Mount Whitney Portal - 2020,   GFX 100, 100-200 GF zoom.)

Even when printed on Baryta or Platine paper stock (as opposed to a true “gloss surface paper”), using “Enhance Black Overcoat” (EBO) makes a significant difference in image quality.  Not just gloss differential in the dark tones, but detail visible going deep into the dark tones and the overall “apparent” dMax in the print.  All this just a visual comparison between “with” and “without.”  I have a picky eye, but my wife who does not, picked the EBO print as superior even though she could not articulate exactly why.

For “some images” this new feature is a game-changer.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: robmaci on September 11, 2020, 08:59:00 am
Thank all you folks for this info - it really does help us all make amazing prints!

I wish I could participate but after only 24 hours of owning the new P9570, it has died on me.  I'm awaiting a tech to come in 5 days from now (due to unusually high service calls) uh-oh.

It died in the middle of a print and gave me a 001A49 error

Then on restart, it gave me a 00122D error

Now, every time I restart the printer, I'm given a 00153F error

Really disappointing since I owned a 9900 for 5 years without a single issue.  I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that this is just a few dud parts and everything will be clean sailing after it's fixed......to be continued
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on September 11, 2020, 09:11:54 am
Thank all you folks for this info - it really does help us all make amazing prints!

I wish I could participate but after only 24 hours of owning the new P9570, it has died on me.  I'm awaiting a tech to come in 5 days from now (due to unusually high service calls) uh-oh.

It died in the middle of a print and gave me a 001A49 error

Then on restart, it gave me a 00122D error

Now, every time I restart the printer, I'm given a 00153F error

Really disappointing since I owned a 9900 for 5 years without a single issue.  I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that this is just a few dud parts and everything will be clean sailing after it's fixed......to be continued

Sorry to hear this.  Keep us posted on what the tech finds, maybe even what the codes mean?  Hopefully something simple and obvious so that you’ll be up and running again quickly.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BrianWJH on September 11, 2020, 05:21:45 pm
Might be worth checking for any paper feed issue such as loose, stuck paper or any protective packing tape or foam pieces in the paper path or platen area.

Brian.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: robmaci on September 12, 2020, 10:48:50 am
Might be worth checking for any paper feed issue such as loose, stuck paper or any protective packing tape or foam pieces in the paper path or platen area.

Brian.

Cheers!  I'll try that!
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: robmaci on September 16, 2020, 06:32:00 pm
1 week and the printer is still broken

2 full days of Epson techs here and they still haven’t fixed it. Need to get even more parts sent to come in for a third (and hopefully last) day.

Not good...
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: tharrington on September 21, 2020, 01:35:05 pm
1 week and the printer is still broken

2 full days of Epson techs here and they still haven’t fixed it. Need to get even more parts sent to come in for a third (and hopefully last) day.

Not good...

Any luck getting it fixed over the last couple of days?  Sorry for the trouble you've experienced... I know it is frustrating.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: soboyle on September 22, 2020, 09:35:45 pm
Just purchased a P7570. First print is not matching my Lightroom preview, instead of a 1" border, the print is shifted 2 1/2 inches up on the paper, and the top of the print is cut off.
Firmware on the printer, it is LK28K7. The Epson website shows LK03K7 as the current firmware, but when I try to update the firmware I get the message: Downgraded, Can Not Be Upgraded.
Perhaps LK28K7 is the latest firmware? I'm not familiar with Epson's firmware numbering sequence.
The print shift and preview issue sounds a lot like what Rand was experiencing.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: John Hollenberg on September 22, 2020, 10:11:19 pm
Firmware on the printer, it is LK28K7. The Epson website shows LK03K7 as the current firmware, but when I try to update the firmware I get the message: Downgraded, Can Not Be Upgraded.
Perhaps LK28K7 is the latest firmware? I'm not familiar with Epson's firmware numbering sequence.

Firmware LK03K7 is dated 7/16/20 on Epson web site

I managed to find LK28K7 for Epson 7580 on Epson China web site using google translate.  Date is 8/10/20 so perhaps you have the latest firmware?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on September 22, 2020, 11:13:18 pm
Just purchased a P7570. First print is not matching my Lightroom preview, instead of a 1" border, the print is shifted 2 1/2 inches up on the paper, and the top of the print is cut off.
Firmware on the printer, it is LK28K7. The Epson website shows LK03K7 as the current firmware, but when I try to update the firmware I get the message: Downgraded, Can Not Be Upgraded.
Perhaps LK28K7 is the latest firmware? I'm not familiar with Epson's firmware numbering sequence.
The print shift and preview issue sounds a lot like what Rand was experiencing.

By ‘up’ do you mean “shifted away from the leading edge?”  Are you using cut sheets or rolls?  Are you using Enhance Black Overcoat?  Mac or Windows? 

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: soboyle on September 23, 2020, 06:57:21 am
Yes, shifted away from the leading edge, using 8 1/2x11 Prem Luster cut sheets for initial tests on Windows 10, no black overcoat.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on September 23, 2020, 08:06:33 am
Yes, shifted away from the leading edge, using 8 1/2x11 Prem Luster cut sheets for initial tests on Windows 10, no black overcoat.

OK, thanks... wracking my brain here to remember.   I’m away from my print studio until the end of the month, so cannot get on and look at my default settings.  i can tell you it is something simple, but undocumented.  Make sure you have the latest driver.  Use the Epson Software Updater utility to check this. Make sure the “centered image” is unchecked.   Make sure your trailing edge margin is “at least” 0.56”.  There’s also an “edge quality” setting that should be “standard” but cannot remember precisely where in the driver this is.  Make sure the media type and size selected in the driver matches the parameters used when loading paper via the printer’s LCD menu.  That’s all I can think of (remember) at the moment. 

Rand



Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: soboyle on September 23, 2020, 08:45:42 am
Thanks Rand, I'll check these out. I did notice that I couldn't use a dimension less than .56" on the leading edge of the print when setting borders in Lightroom, and will confirm a larger border on the trailing edge.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on September 23, 2020, 09:27:35 am
Thanks Rand, I'll check these out. I did notice that I couldn't use a dimension less than .56" on the leading edge of the print when setting borders in Lightroom, and will confirm a larger border on the trailing edge.

The terminology gets confusing.  It is always the “tailing edge coming out of the printer” that is .56” minimum.  If you think about it, the printer has to be able to “hang on to” the paper until you release it. 

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: soboyle on September 25, 2020, 09:39:03 am
Any thoughts on which inks are likely to run out first on the P7570?
I won't be buying a full set, but replacing cartridges as needed, and will stock up on the 2 or 3 that typically run out first.
I think Light Gray was mentioned in this thread. Thoughts on others that are typically the first to go?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: mearussi on September 25, 2020, 10:23:48 am
Any thoughts on which inks are likely to run out first on the P7570?
I won't be buying a full set, but replacing cartridges as needed, and will stock up on the 2 or 3 that typically run out first.
I think Light Gray was mentioned in this thread. Thoughts on others that are typically the first to go?
It's pretty much the same for all printers, the light inks go first along with yellow.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: unesco on September 26, 2020, 03:26:51 am
I have just made a summary of empty cartridges for my P800 and 3880 I have used in the last 4-5 years. The conclusion of usage is as follows:

(PK+MK) = LK = LLK =~LVM =~LC =~Y ~= 2x C ~= 2x M

Because I have printed some percentage of B&W with QTR, one may assume that B&W inks usage would be the same as light colorants (a bit less Y than other light colorants). "~" means +-10% difference.

I was surprised with LK, since the urban legend says those printers use most of LK.

As for the new printer, I suppose the usage of O, G and V will be the lowest.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on September 26, 2020, 06:53:43 am
LK by far, others more dependent on colors in print. When i swapped my 9500 the LK was on 1/3 remaining, the others on or above 2/3 remaining. I print mainly color, about 20% b&w.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: soboyle on September 26, 2020, 07:54:38 pm
Is there a default admin password for Epson printers, or the P7570 in particular? I'm unable to update the firmware, it's asking for a password, and I did not create one when installing the printer (and Epson tech support is not open until Monday morning).
I'm hoping the updated firmware will resolve a scaling issue I am seeing. I'm trying to print a target for profiling a paper I have, the target is printing small, about 96% of full size, and so not usable for creating a profile. I'm printing using the Adobe color print utility, and have triple checked all settings.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: unesco on September 27, 2020, 06:35:59 am
That is not your printer problem, but known ACPU bug.
You can try Dry Creek DCP target printer as an alternative.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: soboyle on September 27, 2020, 05:21:44 pm
Thanks unesco for the heads up, I'll check out Dry Creek.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: soboyle on September 28, 2020, 11:26:11 am
LK by far, others more dependent on colors in print.

Thanks Rand, by LK do you mean the light gray?
Have you found a good source for ink (in the US)? My usual online stores are not stocking most of these inks at this time.

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on October 01, 2020, 07:58:58 am
Thanks Rand, by LK do you mean the light gray?
Have you found a good source for ink (in the US)? My usual online stores are not stocking most of these inks at this time.

Hi,   It was Jan who commented on LK (Light Gray) ink going “fast.”  But I can concur, for sure!  Light Gray goes fastest, then the Light Magenta, Light Cyan, Photo Black (PK).  The rest are pretty equal.  Least is Green, Orange, Violet.   B&H stocks the ink carts for the 75xx/95xx in all three sizes.  I’m beginning to get enough “feel” for consumption that I am now sizing the carts based on their relative consumption rates.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on October 01, 2020, 02:09:19 pm
I see that there's a firmware update for the 7500 (7570). I can't find out what it's supposed to fix / improve, however. Does anyone know?

Jeremy
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on November 22, 2020, 11:32:55 am

Have all the glitches been worked out on the 9570 ?

Is it now a professional printer ready for prime time?

How are the heads holding up.

I’m considering one.




I see that there's a firmware update for the 7500 (7570). I can't find out what it's supposed to fix / improve, however. Does anyone know?

Jeremy
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: robmaci on December 16, 2020, 09:27:40 am
Sorry folks.  I'm not sure if I updated this but am going to do so now, as the P9570 has broken down again.   

The result a few months ago, 24 hours after I bought the printer and it broke down was that the technicians spent 3 days in my studio replacing, as they put it "all the parts".  So that now it's essentially a new printer again.  They couldn't tell me exactly what happened but with the very basic process of replacing parts, it now works.  What have we learned from this? Nothing
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on December 16, 2020, 11:36:41 am
Whether we learned anything from this is still in question. If this situation repeats itself with other customers then that is a very big problem. If it doesn’t happen to other customers we could write it off as a rare anomaly.

There are all kinds of things that could possibly come to mind IF we see this kind of chaos repeated. Where are the components made? Where are the printers assembled? How many different factories produce them, etc. iI hope it’s not what people experienced with the 9900’s where many people had no problems for years and many others had total nightmares like that from day one, replacing part after part hoping to find the weak link. Anyone who has taken one of these things apart knows they are VERY complicated devices. When I look in there I’m amazed these things work at all.

It could be you won’t have any problems at all for years and it will be well worth the headache for such as fast capable machine. Or it could be deja vu all over again. Please keep us informed. I hope this is a rare occurrence. You never know about damage in shipping either.

John


Sorry folks.  I'm not sure if I updated this but am going to do so now, as the P9570 has broken down again.   

The result a few months ago, 24 hours after I bought the printer and it broke down was that the technicians spent 3 days in my studio replacing, as they put it "all the parts".  So that now it's essentially a new printer again.  They couldn't tell me exactly what happened but with the very basic process of replacing parts, it now works.  What have we learned from this? Nothing
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BobDavis on December 30, 2020, 06:23:34 pm
I purchased a P9570 this summer to replace a P9000 with a clogged nozzle.  I thought I was getting along OK until I needed to print dark on Epson Exhibition Canvas Satin.  Instead of printing black it prints black with gray streaks.  I use Colorbyte to print and have many years of experience with that.  Epson has sent a technician here twice in December to try to fix the printer (that's Denver, Colorado to Sturgis, SD).  On the second visit they replaced the print head but that didn't improve anything.  The technician suggested I might be happier with a different model of printer, we print photographs on Epson media.

I would like to find one or two people who have the P9570 AND Exhibition Canvas Satin, 36" roll.  I will pay to have a sample printed.  The sample would be a rectangle 35" X 10" with 100% RGB Black.  Again, I am anxious to pay for this sample print plus your time.  Printing a small black square won't tell me anything.  I seem to have an ink starvation problem that doesn't show up on a small test piece.

My dilemma is that I can't go much longer without a functioning 44" printer.  I need to understand if it's only my P9570 that's defective or if none of them will print black on canvas.  Then I need to decide if I should take a chance on another 9570 or another Epson, or maybe a Canon (which I know nothing about).

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on December 30, 2020, 08:06:58 pm
The only downside with a Canon large format is the longevity of the inks is 1/3 less than the previous model and the current Epsons. The only other thing I would look into is the black and white capability. They no longer support the excellent True Black and White software available for the previous models. If you do a lot of monochrome as I do,  that is a concern I would evaluate. Other than these two issues the Canons are a joy to work with, fast, no head strikes on any media, no ink waste at all and user replaceable heads. You are just not stopped in the middle of a job to solve the latest quirk. You just send the files to the printer and never ever see banding, ink limit issues or any of that crap. They are outstanding for canvas work.

I have been very disappointed to hear of all the nightmares with the P9570 , especially in regard to difficulties of ink absorption and print head banding which should be a thing of the distant past.

Maybe they were designed to be too fast for their own good.

What I’m wondering is, are people still having these issues when printing unidirectional and high quality mode at 2440 ppi?

I know one thing, a always run my old Canon 8300 at bi directional for canvas and quantity prints and I don’t see any difference . It’s just always fast and clean.  It’s made me spoiled and I can’t go back to time wasting headache days. But at the same time, I wouldn’t buy any printer that didn’t offer stellar black and white and great longevity  as well.

John




I purchased a P9570 this summer to replace a P9000 with a clogged nozzle.  I thought I was getting along OK until I needed to print dark on Epson Exhibition Canvas Satin.  Instead of printing black it prints black with gray streaks.  I use Colorbyte to print and have many years of experience with that.  Epson has sent a technician here twice in December to try to fix the printer (that's Denver, Colorado to Sturgis, SD).  On the second visit they replaced the print head but that didn't improve anything.  The technician suggested I might be happier with a different model of printer, we print photographs on Epson media.

I would like to find one or two people who have the P9570 AND Exhibition Canvas Satin, 36" roll.  I will pay to have a sample printed.  The sample would be a rectangle 35" X 10" with 100% RGB Black.  Again, I am anxious to pay for this sample print plus your time.  Printing a small black square won't tell me anything.  I seem to have an ink starvation problem that doesn't show up on a small test piece.

My dilemma is that I can't go much longer without a functioning 44" printer.  I need to understand if it's only my P9570 that's defective or if none of them will print black on canvas.  Then I need to decide if I should take a chance on another 9570 or another Epson, or maybe a Canon (which I know nothing about).

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BrianWJH on December 30, 2020, 08:09:33 pm
Bob, are you talking about vertical steaking or horizontal, if it's the vertical streaks the ink cover on the canvas weave seems to be low and the weave pattern is showing through, can also see that effect in the red also, have you tried increasing the ink cover?

Brian.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BobDavis on December 30, 2020, 09:10:27 pm
Bob, are you talking about vertical steaking or horizontal, if it's the vertical streaks the ink cover on the canvas weave seems to be low and the weave pattern is showing through, can also see that effect in the red also, have you tried increasing the ink cover?

Brian.

This would be horizontal streaks. I have not adjusted ink coverage. I’m not 100% sure, but on Monday, after the technician replaced the print head, we tried to print my 35” black test page. It looked quite black coming off the printer but within a minute the gray streaks appeared, like half the black ink was evaporating. I’ve seen ink evaporate but it’s usually the carrier, I’ve never heard of pigment evaporating.

Bob
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BrianWJH on December 30, 2020, 10:35:16 pm
I’ve seen ink evaporate but it’s usually the carrier, I’ve never heard of pigment evaporating.
Bob

Bob, me neither do you get the same result on a matte paper?

Brian.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: unesco on December 31, 2020, 03:22:55 am
This would be horizontal streaks. I have not adjusted ink coverage. I’m not 100% sure, but on Monday, after the technician replaced the print head, we tried to print my 35” black test page. It looked quite black coming off the printer but within a minute the gray streaks appeared, like half the black ink was evaporating. I’ve seen ink evaporate but it’s usually the carrier, I’ve never heard of pigment evaporating.

Bob

maybe a strange question, but are you sure you use a proper black ink (PK/MK) for this media?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BobDavis on December 31, 2020, 09:12:42 am
Bob, me neither do you get the same result on a matte paper?

Brian.

The only other paper I’ve tested is Epson Luster 260 which seems to work fine.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BobDavis on December 31, 2020, 09:20:03 am
maybe a strange question, but are you sure you use a proper black ink (PK/MK) for this media?

I’m using PK with the Epson Canvas. Maybe I should try MK to see what happens?  I should also mention I’ve printed 35” X 10” RGB Green and RGB Red with no streaks, so the ink starvation seems to be limited to the black channel.  And yes, the PK cartridge has been changed with no effect to the prints.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Garnick on December 31, 2020, 09:57:36 am
I’m using PK with the Epson Canvas. Maybe I should try MK to see what happens?  I should also mention I’ve printed 35” X 10” RGB Green and RGB Red with no streaks, so the ink starvation seems to be limited to the black channel.  And yes, the PK cartridge has been changed with no effect to the prints.

Hi Bob,

Which Epson canvas are you using?.  Does it actually call for PK or MK?  That info should be found in the information sheets that come with the canvas, or the info with the profile you use to print.  If it's a matte canvas you should definitely be using the MK.  But of it's a satin  surface the MK could very well be an issue.

Gary   
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BobDavis on December 31, 2020, 10:03:43 am
Hi Bob,

Which Epson canvas are you using?.  Does it actually call for PK or MK?  That info should be found in the information sheets that come with the canvas, or the info with the profile you use to print.  If it's a matte canvas you should definitely be using the MK.  But of it's a satin  surface the MK could very well be an issue.

Gary

Using PK ink with Epson Exhibition Canvas Satin. This is not new to me as I’ve printed on this media every day for many years with various Epson printers.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on December 31, 2020, 10:17:59 am
Why Pk? Did you try MK?

If not that’s your problem right there. Just because you can use Pk on some printers doesn't means you should, especially when printing bidirectional and printing fast.




Using PK ink with Epson Exhibition Canvas Satin. This is not new to me as I’ve printed on this media every day for many years with various Epson printers.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BobDavis on December 31, 2020, 10:45:24 am
Why Pk? Did you try MK?

If not that’s your problem right there. Just because you can use Pk on some printers doesn't means you should, especially when printing bidirectional and printing fast.

Interesting. I think I’ve printed on canvas satin with 3 earlier generations of Epson printers without issue, so I wasn’t tuned in that it might not work anymore. I will definitely try MK first thing this morning. At Epson’s suggestion I’ve tried the Luster 260 profile to print on the canvas, but still got streaks. I’ve also introduced a 3 second dry time to the printing and that also showed no improvement.

I also think it’s time to find a replacement for Epson Exhibition Canvas Satin. I would certainly appreciate some recommendations from the group.

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Garnick on December 31, 2020, 11:14:54 am
Interesting. I think I’ve printed on canvas satin with 3 earlier generations of Epson printers without issue, so I wasn’t tuned in that it might not work anymore. I will definitely try MK first thing this morning. At Epson’s suggestion I’ve tried the Luster 260 profile to print on the canvas, but still got streaks. I’ve also introduced a 3 second dry time to the printing and that also showed no improvement.

I also think it’s time to find a replacement for Epson Exhibition Canvas Satin. I would certainly appreciate some recommendations from the group.

Thanks,

Bob

Well Bob, if you are indeed using the satin surface you should also be using PK, not MK.  However, I'm not sure that you should be using the Luster profile.  I use only Matte surface canvas and I use the Canvas Matte profile for the P7000, printing from Photoshop.  I assume the P9570 also has these the same profiles or at least similar.  If so there should also be a Canvas Satin profile.  If you haven't tried that profile I would suggest that you should do so.

Gary
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on December 31, 2020, 11:23:17 am
Yea, forget that canvas. Order a small roll of Breathing Color Lyve to test for best  results . Ive used their canvas since it first came out on all the brands of printers and never had a single problem or bad batch. It uses their Timeless varnish which is the best I’ve used. They also provide good profiles for all the printers that you can test with.

If you are one of those people who don’t use a uv varnish, Breathing Color makes a canvas for that also, though I’ve never seen it.

John



Well Bob, if you are indeed using the satin surface you should also be using PK, not MK.  However, I'm not sure that you should be using the Luster profile.  I use only Matte surface canvas and I use the Canvas Matte profile for the P7000, printing from Photoshop.  I assume the P9570 also has these the same profiles or at least similar.  If so there should also be a Canvas Satin profile.  If you haven't tried that profile I would suggest that you should do so.

Gary
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Garnick on December 31, 2020, 11:46:05 am
Yea, forget that canvas. Order a small roll of Breathing Color Lyve to test for best  results . Ive used their canvas since it first came out on all the brands of printers and never had a single problem or bad batch. It uses their Timeless varnish which is the best I’ve used. They also provide good profiles for all the printers that you can test with.

If you are one of those people who don’t use a uv varnish, Breathing Color makes a canvas for that also, though I’ve never seen it.

John

Yes, I agree!  I've been using the Breathing Color Chromata White Matt canvas since approximately 2005 with great results.  I did have one roll on which the ink peeled off while stretching.  Took a few shots of the issue and sent them along to Breathing Color.  The next day I had a call from the distributor, Amplis Photo Toronto, to let me know there was a new roll of that canvas waiting to replace the bad one.  I left the bad roll and picked up the new roll and never an issue since.  In my opinion that was excellent support, and I let them know immediately.

Gary     
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BobDavis on December 31, 2020, 11:56:47 am
Yes, I agree!  I've been using the Breathing Color Chromata White Matt canvas since approximately 2005 with great results.  I did have one roll on which the ink peeled off while stretching.  Took a few shots of the issue and sent them along to Breathing Color.  The next day I had a call from the distributor, VISTEK, Toronto to let me know there was a new roll of that canvas waiting to replace the bad one.  I left the bad roll and picked up the new roll and never an issue since.  In my opinion that was excellent support, and I let them know immediately.

Gary   

Excellent!!!  Thanks for the suggestion.  Breathing Color it is!
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Panagiotis on December 31, 2020, 01:53:11 pm
Following this and the other thread about the new Epsons I wonder if some of the problems with the black ink performance has to do with the fact that there are two separate black channels PK/MK. In the older models was one or another. But now maybe some media types (in driver paper types) make use of both blacks at the same time like the Canons and testing must be done to select the optimal media type for some papers/canvases. Or maybe a media type called A was using in the older models PK only black and PK/MK now because the formula of the black is different now and a combination of both must be used to achieve good output.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: BobDavis on December 31, 2020, 02:26:56 pm
Following this and the other thread about the new Epsons I wonder if some of the problems with the black ink performance has to do with the fact that there are two separate black channels PK/MK. In the older models was one or another. But now maybe some media types (in driver paper types) make use of both blacks at the same time like the Canons and testing must be done to select the optimal media type for some papers/canvases. Or maybe a media type called A was using in the older models PK only black and PK/MK now because the formula of the black is different now and a combination of both must be used to achieve good output.

I would be very surprised to be the first to discover you can't print black on Exhibition Canvas Satin.  Surely there are many people using that canvas with the 9570.  In a few days I'll be trying the Breathing Color Canvas Lyve with matte ink and satin varnish.  I'm praying that will work so I can continue to print with confidence with the Epson. 
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: unesco on December 31, 2020, 02:56:38 pm
you have horizontal stripes but also some vertical
I am wondering if:
1) the printer is stable and mechanically doesn't move (e.g. the stand is well attached etc)
2) the canvas has any defects, sometimes happen - have you tried on another canvas role, also another type of canvas?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on December 31, 2020, 03:24:58 pm
I’m thinking printer alignment could possibly be off, that’s usually the first culprit.

Since there are a lot of settings that are new with these heads alignment may be a more tricky process .

Speed of printing is also of course something that can have a big effect and the alignment should be done at that speed. With the HPs we have something called paper advance adjustment that should be run. Don’t know if that is possible on the 9570.





you have horizontal stripes but also some vertical
I am wondering if:
1) the printer is stable and mechanically doesn't move (e.g. the stand is well attached etc)
2) the canvas has any defects, sometimes happen - have you tried on another canvas role, also another type of canvas?
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: robmaci on July 29, 2021, 03:04:41 pm
Dear readers - I'm new to the forum so hope I'm doing this correctly.

I have a warning about buying a P9570.  I will try to make this short:

I have spent the last 9 months attempting to get my new P9570 to work properly, unsuccessfully and now Epson is buying it back from me.  I have had 6 visits from 4 technicians, one telling me that he replaced "basically everything" and the unit still won't work properly.  Two dead heads.  Constant head strikes on the papers.

My warning is that when they finally (after waiting for 2 months) sent me the empty packaging I'm to use to get the unit properly packaged to ship back to them, I saw on the side of the packaging a label.  "Refurbished Unit'

This worries me tremendously.  I am worried Epson is not listening to me or using any common sense at all.  If how they have behaved during the Buyback process is any indication, I wonder if they even know what's going on with this unit.

This unit is HIGHLY defective.  I have run a printing business in New York for 8 years.  I know what I'm talking about. This printer is unusable.

In case they're going to "fix" this printer and then sell it to you as a refurbished unit, MAKE SURE you don't buy it.  The serial number is X6FA000713.  You're best to make sure that if you're buying a refurbished unit, it is not this one.  Trust me on this one.  It's been a nightmare.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on July 29, 2021, 06:56:36 pm

Hi Rob,

Would you please post this on the Epson Google forum. That is where you will get a clear response from current users of this machine.

https://groups.io/g/EpsonWideFormat

Everyone should post their experiences with these new printers in all the forums, including this one.
It’s the only user experience we have.

 I have discussed this unit with people who love them that use them in a production situation daily.  I’m in the market for a new one so I’ve had discussions with several people using multiple brands who have made me prints from my files. By far the best prints I’ve had done were on the 9570. The neutral black and white is spectacular and I’m very picky about it. The gloss differential on bw  fiber gloss media and color as well is better than any pigment printer using oem inks I’ve  ever used and I’ve had all the major brands. The dither is clearly better than the Canons and the HPZ. There is no way I can stomach Canons bw and their sad software for driving it.

In my opinion Canon and Hp have clearly gone backwards .

I want a new 44 that does everything well, but I’m trying to hold off until this fall. I’m not convinced about any of them right now. There are all kinds of supply chain issues with Asia and a lot of sloppiness the last year.   There were lots of issues with the new Epsons during the pandemic with people having them rebuilt in their studios . I also heard the same kind reports initially from resellers about the P20,000s that eventually got straightened out.
I thought they had resolved all the head strike horrors by now. Even one bad head strike can kill a head. An Epson tech told me that. And the heads on these are over three grand plus labor. So they have to stay in warranty.

I actually have seen no more bad comments about the 9570s on the Epson form all summer. But that doesn’t prove anything. You never know what is really going on out there. Usually people don’t post when things are going great.

Are they giving you a new printer or did you refuse one and ask for your money back? It could be you got a real lemon that came out early on, that they should have completely replaced.

There seems to be a lot of happy people running the 7570s which I guess is somewhat irrelevant.

I wish I had an idea about what is going on. I hope they aren’t the 9900s all over again with really inconsistent quality control in manufacture spanning everything from excellent units to hundreds of never ending nightmares for years and years.


John


Dear readers - I'm new to the forum so hope I'm doing this correctly.

I have a warning about buying a P9570.  I will try to make this short:

I have spent the last 9 months attempting to get my new P9570 to work properly, unsuccessfully and now Epson is buying it back from me.  I have had 6 visits from 4 technicians, one telling me that he replaced "basically everything" and the unit still won't work properly.  Two dead heads.  Constant head strikes on the papers.

My warning is that when they finally (after waiting for 2 months) sent me the empty packaging I'm to use to get the unit properly packaged to ship back to them, I saw on the side of the packaging a label.  "Refurbished Unit'

This worries me tremendously.  I am worried Epson is not listening to me or using any common sense at all.  If how they have behaved during the Buyback process is any indication, I wonder if they even know what's going on with this unit.

This unit is HIGHLY defective.  I have run a printing business in New York for 8 years.  I know what I'm talking about. This printer is unusable.

In case they're going to "fix" this printer and then sell it to you as a refurbished unit, MAKE SURE you don't buy it.  The serial number is X6FA000713.  You're best to make sure that if you're buying a refurbished unit, it is not this one.  Trust me on this one.  It's been a nightmare.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on July 29, 2021, 07:51:41 pm
Quote
There seems to be a lot of happy people running the 7570s which I guess is somewhat irrelevant.

I don’t think it is irrelevant at all.  The two printers are identical except for carriage width.

Jeremy Roussak (who has been summarily sacked from this site) had a 7570 that also proved to be “unfixable.”   He sent it back to his vendor.  A few months later (after a vacation, as I recall) he bought another copy of the 7570 and has only has been quite happy with it.   It seems to me that Jan Smit also had a 9570 that was a complete dud, and it went back as well.

My conclusion is that there are some examples that make it out of production that are just “bad” for some reason that Epson itself doesn’t understand (yet, hopefully).

I have two colleagues in separate shops who have 9570s that are chugging away with no problems at all, and are their favored printer.  My 7570 is also (now) the most trouble free and excellent printer I’ve owned.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on July 29, 2021, 08:21:37 pm
I guess it all depends on what factory in Asia they were made, and at what time and under what supervision.

Clearly they rushed this series out before they were ready for prime time. Those first buyers got burned and had to do a lot of the beta testing on their own dime. These were not amateur printmakers who were giving up.

Then there were few if any techs available to focus on the problems during the worst of the pandemic, no small issue, and not of Epson's creation.

At any rate the image quality is really great all around and I hope it is straightened out before I attempt to buy one this fall.

John






quote author=Rand47 link=topic=133622.msg1221418#msg1221418 date=1627602701]
I don’t think it is irrelevant at all.  The two printers are identical except for carriage width.

Jeremy Roussak (who has been summarily sacked from this site) had a 7570 that also proved to be “unfixable.”   He sent it back to his vendor.  A few months later (after a vacation, as I recall) he bought another copy of the 7570 and has only has been quite happy with it.   It seems to me that Jan Smit also had a 9570 that was a complete dud, and it went back as well.

My conclusion is that there are some examples that make it out of production that are just “bad” for some reason that Epson itself doesn’t understand (yet, hopefully).

I have two colleagues in separate shops who have 9570s that are chugging away with no problems at all, and are their favored printer.  My 7570 is also (now) the most trouble free and excellent printer I’ve owned.

Rand
[/quote]
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on July 29, 2021, 08:56:47 pm
I guess it all depends on what factory in China they were made, and at what time and under what supervision.

Clearly they rushed this series out before they were ready for prime time. Those first buyers got burned and had to do a lot of the beta testing on their own dime. These were not amateur printmakers who were giving up.

Then there were few if any techs available to focus on the problems during the worst of the pandemic, no small issue, and not of Epson's creation.

At any rate the image quality is really great all around and I hope it is straightened out before I attempt to buy one this fall.

John


John,   I know for a fact that you’re right about Epson techs not even having access to the printer to trouble shoot various parameters.  They were “off site and masked up” for quite a while.  To their credit, in spite of this, they worked with me to trouble shoot.  So, yes, I ended up being a beta-tester, but I can also say that they more than fairly compensated me for lost extendibles, warranty, etc.

I think as long as you choose a vendor very carefully, and have it understood before the purchase that if the printer is “one of the duds” they they will come and get it - you’ll be fine.  I suggest hanging on to all the packing and pallet for a few weeks or so.  In a very real sense, Epson has put themselves on the line w/ this new series printers.  They are feature rich, easy to use, don’t clog, have GREAT sheet feed, etc. - so I’m pretty confident that they know they have a lot at stake.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on July 30, 2021, 04:47:20 am
Hi all!
I have read so much about the non compatibility of 9570 with glossy-Baryta papers like Fineart Baryta, Photorag Baryta etc. I would much appreciate if anyone could give any feedback on how these papers behave with the new printer finally!
Thanks very much
George
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on July 30, 2021, 10:11:36 am
From a quick Google search it looks like the 9570 model is on back order just about everywhere. To me that’s a good sign, maybe, that they are serious about re-engineering the glitches, like roll paper transport that were causing these head strikes and ink limit issues people were complaining about. It’s a lot easier to fix things in the factory than on location in someone’s studio when they are in the middle of a series of jobs.

It seems a lot of printer production, including Epson, as well as tech production in general with Japanese and US companies, is being moved from China to Vietnam and Indonesia.

It seems like the head strike and other paper transport  issues were with stiffer and thicker media.People we’re having a devil of a time finding settings that worked correctly, especially on thicker stiffer media. Hahnemuehle was not happy about it.

I do believe that firmware updates couldn’t completely rectify this and mechanical upgrade was necessary.

 I had color and black and white prints made from my files on the 9570, on my primary paper these days, Canson Platine and they were excellent. But Platine is cotton and not stiff and not too thick.They matched the Z3200 monochrome prints I do which use the separate gloss enhancer channel very effectively, and had better sharpness and dither , and were better with bronzing and gloss differential issues than the previous Epsons, new Canons or the previous Canons or the prints I had done on the HP Z 9+.

John





quote author=Idololab link=topic=133622.msg1221425#msg1221425 date=1627634840]
Hi all!
I have read so much about the non compatibility of 9570 with glossy-Baryta papers like Fineart Baryta, Photorag Baryta etc. I would much appreciate if anyone could give any feedback on how these papers behave with the new printer finally!
Thanks very much
George
[/quote]
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on July 30, 2021, 11:18:59 am
Hi all!
I have read so much about the non compatibility of 9570 with glossy-Baryta papers like Fineart Baryta, Photorag Baryta etc. I would much appreciate if anyone could give any feedback on how these papers behave with the new printer finally!
Thanks very much
George

Jan Smit had troubles with overinking on some papers.   And, some 3rd party paper mfgs. were recommending a 10-15% decrease in color density w/ their ICC profiles.

Early on, while I never had anything approaching “pooling” of ink, I did notice that the inkload on some papers seemed heavy enough to produce some swell in the paper - especially in heavily inked large areas of dark tones.

I’ve not seen this at all since about 3 firmware updates ago.  And, I’ve always printed successfully on the papers you mention, along w/ Gold Fibre Gloss, Canson Platine Fibre Rag, Simply Elegant Gold Fibre, etc.  Those are my principal papers and if there were issues, this printer would be a sold “no-go” for my purposes.

As to “stiff” papers (always a challenge on rolls), I print on Hahnemuhele Torchon often.  It has to be “the stiffest paper I’ve ever seen!”  No issues whatsoever.   

I’m not trying to defend Epson.  This series of printers had some serious teething issues.  And it was not well understood by the techs in the beginning.  In many early conversations with the “regular” tech people, they had no idea at all about this printer and its features and operating paradigm.  E.g. they had no idea there even “was” an Epson Media Installer program!  But all of that is now “history,” as far as I can tell.

Rand

Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on July 30, 2021, 06:08:14 pm
These were far more than teething issues. These issues stopped serious experienced printmakers from getting their work done for months at a time. Not all of them were so lucky to have their expensive materials and time compensated for. It wasn’t just a few people who post on these tech sites.

The strange thing is there were very few reports about this series at all on the forums, positive or negative. I think I saw the same three people posting about them, and still do. I heard from a very large reseller who sells hundreds of them of all brands every year that LOTS of experienced printmakers all over the US were unable to use them and wanting to return them. He cautioned me to hold off and actually I haven’t heard back yet. Now I see the 9570s are back ordered everywhere. This makes me think there is some serious retrofitting going on. If they are taking their time to do that I’m even more inclined to buy one. This wouldn’t be the first time printers were shipped before thoroughly being beta tested and vetted. I’ve seen it happen with all three of the primary companies. And this is certainly not the first time for Epson in recent years. It’s not a perfect world, supply chains have been screwed up everywhere, but if it happens to you in the middle of serious projects, it can freak you out and make you really mad.


quote author=Rand47 link=topic=133622.msg1221445#msg1221445 date=1627658339]
Jan Smit had troubles with overinking on some papers.   And, some 3rd party paper mfgs. were recommending a 10-15% decrease in color density w/ their ICC profiles.

Early on, while I never had anything approaching “pooling” of ink, I did notice that the inkload on some papers seemed heavy enough to produce some swell in the paper - especially in heavily inked large areas of dark tones.

I’ve not seen this at all since about 3 firmware updates ago.  And, I’ve always printed successfully on the papers you mention, along w/ Gold Fibre Gloss, Canson Platine Fibre Rag, Simply Elegant Gold Fibre, etc.  Those are my principal papers and if there were issues, this printer would be a sold “no-go” for my purposes.

As to “stiff” papers (always a challenge on rolls), I print on Hahnemuhele Torchon often.  It has to be “the stiffest paper I’ve ever seen!”  No issues whatsoever.   

I’m not trying to defend Epson.  This series of printers had some serious teething issues.  And it was not well understood by the techs in the beginning.  In many early conversations with the “regular” tech people, they had no idea at all about this printer and its features and operating paradigm.  E.g. they had no idea there even “was” an Epson Media Installer program!  But all of that is now “history,” as far as I can tell.

Rand
[/quote]
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Rand47 on July 30, 2021, 06:47:21 pm
Quote
This series of printers had some serious teething issues.

No argument from me on the seriousness of the issues.  I was, at one time, on the verge of having my vendor come and pick it up.

Rand
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: MfAlab on August 12, 2021, 10:43:53 pm
Hi all!
I have read so much about the non compatibility of 9570 with glossy-Baryta papers like Fineart Baryta, Photorag Baryta etc. I would much appreciate if anyone could give any feedback on how these papers behave with the new printer finally!
Thanks very much
George

Some experience for compatibility of P95X0 with glossy-Baryta papers. Like deanwork said, hard and thick papers get more problem. Canson Infinity Platine Fibre Rag and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta works good. But P9570 with Canson Infinity Baryta Prestige causes huge problem, feeding unstable and suction too weak. I also found slippy papers get more problems too, heavy weight RC papers will lead similar issue.

P95X0 will over release the paper in the roll paper cover while printing. And it's all under the the dust proof cover, you won't aware that and can do nothing at all until printing finish. Changing reference paper and back tension setting did not help. Even the feeding is right on track, the printer still release too much paper length from the core. I'm working with Epson locally and Japan headquarter trying to figure out causes of this issue almost a year. Case is not close yet...

The actual problem is paper will loose from the core without tension and pressure from outer rolls of papers. If the tape between paper and core stronger enough, paper will be forced to fold back. Even more, when paper be sticked firmly on the core and didn’t have enough space to be fold back in the roll paper cover, the printer keeps trying releasing more paper will finally break “roll paper guide” which is a small white plastic shaft driving roll paper adapters.

I guess it's a hardware issue, a paper feeding sensor or something. And different machine (the same model of course) shows varying severity. Assembly precision might play a role in it too. P95X0 / P75X0 is new generation printer, many hard wares are new, settings are new. Epson needs more time to debug and fine tune it. But we are in global epidemic, everything is getting very slow.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: Idololab on August 14, 2021, 04:47:28 am
Some experience for compatibility of P95X0 with glossy-Baryta papers. Like deanwork said, hard and thick papers get more problem. Canson Infinity Platine Fibre Rag and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta works good. But P9570 with Canson Infinity Baryta Prestige causes huge problem, feeding unstable and suction too weak. I also found slippy papers get more problems too, heavy weight RC papers will lead similar issue.

P95X0 will over release the paper in the roll paper cover while printing. And it's all under the the dust proof cover, you won't aware that and can do nothing at all until printing finish. Changing reference paper and back tension setting did not help. Even the feeding is right on track, the printer still release too much paper length from the core. I'm working with Epson locally and Japan headquarter trying to figure out causes of this issue almost a year. Case is not close yet...

The actual problem is paper will loose from the core without tension and pressure from outer rolls of papers. If the tape between paper and core stronger enough, paper will be forced to fold back. Even more, when paper be sticked firmly on the core and didn’t have enough space to be fold back in the roll paper cover, the printer keeps trying releasing more paper will finally break “roll paper guide” which is a small white plastic shaft driving roll paper adapters.

I guess it's a hardware issue, a paper feeding sensor or something. And different machine (the same model of course) shows varying severity. Assembly precision might play a role in it too. P95X0 / P75X0 is new generation printer, many hard wares are new, settings are new. Epson needs more time to debug and fine tune it. But we are in global epidemic, everything is getting very slow.
Thank you MfAlab for your detailed observations.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on August 14, 2021, 03:17:57 pm
Everything Kang-Wei described sounds exactly right from what I’ve heard from the resellers.
They released a complicated machine right in the middle of a pandemic.
It should be a really great printer once these paper feed issues are worked on in the hardware.

I guess right now you are pretty much ok as long as you aren’t feeding very thick or tightly cured media. I would probably be ok with what I use. But ANY head strikes can wreck these very expensive dual heads, so always be in warranty.

John





Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: MarcoFg on September 28, 2021, 07:01:24 pm
Hi everyone, I did just subscribe, so first let me introduce myself.
My name is Marco. I manage a fine art printing lab in Naples. I use 2 Epson 9900. Over the years I have had, like many 9900 users, printhead problems, same kind everytime. I have read several times on this forum about delamination, that’s what I think it happened. On one printer in particular, the one I mainly use with MB, it’s the second time this happens, the first after 3/3 and a half years, in 2018, the second a few weeks ago. The one I use with PB needed a printhead change about 3 years ago and for the moment it works fine.
I’m writing here because at this point I have to decide whether to replace the printhead head or buy a p9500.
I have tried to carefully read all the threads regarding the x500 series, I have seen that many users have had problems, some solved over time with firmware updates, others that seem to go on. Overinking, feeding problems, end of roll handling problems, connectivity problems, roll loading problems, macOS users problems, trouble with the use of epson media installer (practically I mostly use Hahnemuhle papers). So the question is, arrived to October 2021, can I think about buying this printer with confidence?
I am still thinking about what to do… Both solutions have pros and cons.

Buy 9500
- Pros
New machine with hopefully longer printhead life related to 9900 model, also thanks to the chance of being able to personally make a better maintenance
2 different channels for MB and PB (the most important thing, obviously! at this point I could even think of owning only one printer even though it would always be better to have two printers in case of breakdowns)
- Cons
I am afraid that I may run into one or more of the problems listed or that I have to waste a lot of time setting up all the papers I use (with only one 9900 working I’m not fully operative)
Costs; the purchase of printers and inks plus paying people for carrying mean a considerable  cost to be faced in a short time

Replace the 9900 printhead
- Pros
Once the head has been replaced, as happened the last time, I'm ready to work! Just make new ICC profiles and go. I have all the settings ready.
I still have several 9900 ink cartridges, I would not have to spend money on different types of inks
- Cons
Replacing the head sounds uneconomical to me. Replacing the head twice is like you almost bought the printer twice! (cost of head, pump and damper replacement € 2300!). Assuming that the new head can work in the best scenario another three years, I don’t think the other 9900 will have that life, since the head is now three years old. I'd be back at the start! When it will happen, I would be forced to buy a new printer, replace the printhead for the fourth time would be crazy. so why don’t buy it now?

In short, one tiny voice tells me to buy the 9500, it would be wiser, but I'm terrified about wasting time, paper and inks if problems would arise with the new 9500. Soon I will have big works to do, I can not afford to have a printer that is not immediately operational
thanks to anybody who can give me advice on this.

Marco
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: tharrington on September 28, 2021, 08:18:07 pm
Hey Marco-
I’m almost at a year with the 9570 and it has worked pretty well for me. I’ve mentioned before that I use 44” Hahnemuhle FB rolls which is obviously thick paper. Feeding the paper all the way in and then pulling back an inch or so has pretty much eliminated issues. I always print with the extra margin on the leading edge and this seems to do fine with no head strikes. One thing that irritates me is not knowing what is addressed in firmware updates. The biggest issue I have is what happens if roll paper detaches from the tube when printing. This happens frequently with this Hahnemuhle paper. The tape they use to secure the roll is pathetic.  When this happens, the 9570 will feed around 10 feet of paper out.  Supposedly this is a bug that Epson has been aware of for many months.  They have yet to address the problem because it just happened again today. If Hahnemuhle would use better tape this would be a non issue- even with the bug still existing. 
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: MfAlab on September 29, 2021, 12:36:15 am
The biggest issue I have is what happens if roll paper detaches from the tube when printing. This happens frequently with this Hahnemuhle paper. The tape they use to secure the roll is pathetic.  When this happens, the 9570 will feed around 10 feet of paper out.  Supposedly this is a bug that Epson has been aware of for many months.  They have yet to address the problem because it just happened again today. If Hahnemuhle would use better tape this would be a non issue- even with the bug still existing.

You should be happy. If the paper sticks firmly on the core, the printer might break “roll paper guide” on it's own. That's what my customer met, TWICE!

I’m writing here because at this point I have to decide whether to replace the printhead head or buy a p9500.
I have tried to carefully read all the threads regarding the x500 series, I have seen that many users have had problems, some solved over time with firmware updates, others that seem to go on. Overinking, feeding problems, end of roll handling problems, connectivity problems, roll loading problems, macOS users problems, trouble with the use of epson media installer (practically I mostly use Hahnemuhle papers). So the question is, arrived to October 2021, can I think about buying this printer with confidence?
I am still thinking about what to do… Both solutions have pros and cons.

For my experience, I will suggest getting a new head and stay on 9900. Wait 1~2 years until Epson fix most issues on P9500. Or, if you are lucky, the 9900 keeps working for 3~5 years. You can buy next model of P9500 which Epson already fix all problems.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on September 29, 2021, 11:14:23 am
Personally I don’t think it makes sense to keep a 9900 running unless you are using third party inks in it.
After a printer series reaches a couple of generations behind they start raising the price of the inks to where it becomes unaffordable to keep using them. Then it becomes difficult to get inks, parts, etc.

If you are afraid to risk the 9570, I would definitely go with the Epson P 9000. It has better black inks, faster, improved, much more permanent inkset, and will be supported for much longer. They are also said to clog less and waste less ink in cleanings.

The best deal here in the US is the very similar P 8000 which is the same unit, minus the orange and green inks. The only downside of these two, which is a significant downside to consider, is that you have to switch the MK and Pk inks when changing types of media. That was really stupid of Epson not to resolve that with the P9000. They waited to the P 10k which is now replaced by the 9570.






You should be happy. If the paper sticks firmly on the core, the printer might break “roll paper guide” on it's own. That's what my customer met, TWICE!

For my experience, I will suggest getting a new head and stay on 9900. Wait 1~2 years until Epson fix most issues on P9500. Or, if you are lucky, the 9900 keeps working for 3~5 years. You can buy next model of P9500 which Epson already fix all problems.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: MfAlab on October 01, 2021, 02:42:39 am
Personally I don’t think it makes sense to keep a 9900 running unless you are using third party inks in it.
After a printer series reaches a couple of generations behind they start raising the price of the inks to where it becomes unaffordable to keep using them. Then it becomes difficult to get inks, parts, etc.

If you are afraid to risk the 9570, I would definitely go with the Epson P 9000. It has better black inks, faster, improved, much more permanent inkset, and will be supported for much longer. They are also said to clog less and waste less ink in cleanings.

The best deal here in the US is the very similar P 8000 which is the same unit, minus the orange and green inks. The only downside of these two, which is a significant downside to consider, is that you have to switch the MK and Pk inks when changing types of media. That was really stupid of Epson not to resolve that with the P9000. They waited to the P 10k which is now replaced by the 9570.

Yes, P9000 is an option too. IF the local Epson is raising up ink price or stop service of 9900. Actually, 9900 is almost the same with P9000 and shares repair parts. Only inks are different. The discontinues is all about business. Sadly, we cannot do anything about it.

P10000 is discontinued. P8000 is about too. The "not wide color gamut" printer line will be replaced by new model called P8570D. That's a new CAD printer design from T7770D with double rolls, but different ink set. 6 inks called PRO6, without O/G/V/LC/LM/LG.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on October 01, 2021, 10:20:44 am
Kang,

Can you easily use third party inks in these Epsons in China?

From the press release by Canon about their new printer about to be released, it seems to be designed for the
Graphic arts and fashion industry, not high-end photography. If so that’s a major disappointment.

John

quote author=MfAlab link=topic=133622.msg1225314#msg1225314 date=1633070559]
Yes, P9000 is an option too. IF the local Epson is raising up ink price or stop service of 9900. Actually, 9900 is almost the same with P9000 and shares repair parts. Only inks are different. The discontinues is all about business. Sadly, we cannot do anything about it.

P10000 is discontinued. P8000 is about too. The "not wide color gamut" printer line will be replaced by new model called P8570D. That's a new CAD printer design from T7770D with double rolls, but different ink set. 6 inks called PRO6, without O/G/V/LC/LM/LG.
[/quote]
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: MfAlab on October 04, 2021, 02:51:57 am
Kang,

Can you easily use third party inks in these Epsons in China?

From the press release by Canon about their new printer about to be released, it seems to be designed for the
Graphic arts and fashion industry, not high-end photography. If so that’s a major disappointment.

John

I'm Taiwanese, not Chinese. And I have no experience on China Epson printers. But I know many printing shops in China use Canon printers and 3rd party inks. China refillable ink carts for Epson can not be use in Taiwan models, I guess it's the same situation for US models. Epson uses different model names and cartridge chips for the same printer to prevent cross-country selling. I'm wondering if anybody update a china or Europe firmware, is that possible to use corresponding carts.

US →   P9570
EU →   P9500
Asia →   P9530
China →   P9580
Japan →   P9550
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: dgberg on October 04, 2021, 09:25:00 am
This is old news for the regulars but the 700ml refillables with single use chips work really well in the Epson P6000,7000,8000 and P9000 series.
My 9900 finally kicked the bucket after 11 years. 2 1/2 years ago I bought the P8000 and a set of 700ml refillables from Ink Owl.
Turned that new P8000 into the best 8 color dye sub printer available. We print quite a few metal prints but just last summer only finally replaced the first set of chips. They are $25@.
You can put oem ink, third party pigment or like we did dye sublimation ink. A little profile work and done.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on October 04, 2021, 01:05:56 pm

I see. Epson has to accommodate the laws of various countries and regions in regard to the ability of using non-Epson consumables.

As far as Canon goes, there have been third party inks in third party carts available for a long time in the US.
But I don’t know of any that are refillable like the Epson clone carts. There may be some but haven’t heard of them.


I'm Taiwanese, not Chinese. And I have no experience on China Epson printers. But I know many printing shops in China use Canon printers and 3rd party inks. China refillable ink carts for Epson can not be use in Taiwan models, I guess it's the same situation for US models. Epson uses different model names and cartridge chips for the same printer to prevent cross-country selling. I'm wondering if anybody update a china or Europe firmware, is that possible to use corresponding carts.

US →   P9570
EU →   P9500
Asia →   P9530
China →   P9580
Japan →   P9550
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: MfAlab on October 05, 2021, 12:33:07 am
This is old news for the regulars but the 700ml refillables with single use chips work really well in the Epson P6000,7000,8000 and P9000 series.
My 9900 finally kicked the bucket after 11 years. 2 1/2 years ago I bought the P8000 and a set of 700ml refillables from Ink Owl.
Turned that new P8000 into the best 8 color dye sub printer available. We print quite a few metal prints but just last summer only finally replaced the first set of chips. They are $25@.
You can put oem ink, third party pigment or like we did dye sublimation ink. A little profile work and done.

Yes, I knew there is a single use chip solution. But it's not like a reusable reset chips in old days, easy and almost one time work. Before SC-P era, we can easily buy a set of refillable cart and resetter, then use any inks we want. cheap color inks or K7 pure gray inks
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: deanwork on October 12, 2021, 02:01:59 pm

There is a chip supply shortage now for these kind of products and that is going to last probably at least a year more if not longer. I also saw that the chip reprogrammer device  for the older chips is hard to come by or very expensive if you find one. Mine has worn out.



Yes, I knew there is a single use chip solution. But it's not like a reusable reset chips in old days, easy and almost one time work. Before SC-P era, we can easily buy a set of refillable cart and resetter, then use any inks we want. cheap color inks or K7 pure gray inks
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: bellevuefineart on February 13, 2022, 07:04:32 pm
Hey Marco-
I’m almost at a year with the 9570 and it has worked pretty well for me. I’ve mentioned before that I use 44” Hahnemuhle FB rolls which is obviously thick paper. Feeding the paper all the way in and then pulling back an inch or so has pretty much eliminated issues. I always print with the extra margin on the leading edge and this seems to do fine with no head strikes. One thing that irritates me is not knowing what is addressed in firmware updates. The biggest issue I have is what happens if roll paper detaches from the tube when printing. This happens frequently with this Hahnemuhle paper. The tape they use to secure the roll is pathetic.  When this happens, the 9570 will feed around 10 feet of paper out.  Supposedly this is a bug that Epson has been aware of for many months.  They have yet to address the problem because it just happened again today. If Hahnemuhle would use better tape this would be a non issue- even with the bug still existing.


This is a HUGE issue for me as well. Paper coming off the core, and the Epson P9570 is a huge pain in the rear. It's chronic. I use a lot of Moab Entrada, and it ALWAYS comes off the core, and every single time we have to tape it back to the core, roll the paper back onto the core, and go through the whole routine of reloading it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktEI745yjc8&t=81s
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: JRSmit on February 14, 2022, 03:38:06 am

This is a HUGE issue for me as well. Paper coming off the core, and the Epson P9570 is a huge pain in the rear. It's chronic. I use a lot of Moab Entrada, and it ALWAYS comes off the core, and every single time we have to tape it back to the core, roll the paper back onto the core, and go through the whole routine of reloading it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktEI745yjc8&t=81s
What rear tension setting do you use? ( that is the tension applied to the roll). For the SCP9000's i would set that to High ( for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag f.i.) or Extra High (For Hahnemuhle Museum Etching f.i.). Keeps the roll more tightly rolled.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: bellevuefineart on February 26, 2022, 01:32:01 pm
What rear tension setting do you use? ( that is the tension applied to the roll). For the SCP9000's i would set that to High ( for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag f.i.) or Extra High (For Hahnemuhle Museum Etching f.i.). Keeps the roll more tightly rolled.

I use the least tension possible. If you set the tension to high on the P9570 you'll have a lot of issues. This printer literally rips paper off the core. I can't count the number of times I have taped paper back to the core, only to have the P9570 rip it off the core again. It's a nightmare with this machine, and I really hope Epson fixes this in firmware. Frankly I'd like to sue them over this machine.

At any rate, ranting aside, I set tension to the least amount possible.
Title: Re: SureColor P9570
Post by: samogitian on April 03, 2022, 05:33:00 pm
I have an Epson 7570 and I (kind of) regret buying it. It's a great printer but 24" is such a small difference from the 17" my p900 can make. I can't really engage the wall in a significant way. I've got the resolution to do it (Fuji GFX100S, for one) and I'd love to be able to print big. I use Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique II pretty much exclusively.

I am strongly tempted to put the 7570 on the market (I'm near NYC so it should be an easy enough sell even though no question, I'll lose some serious cash… anybody want it?). I will only be using this for my own art photography so the 7570 hasn't had that much use. I am now at the point where I need to start replacing the starter ink cartridges, so I'm really thinking about what I should be doing. At the same time, I've heard such negative things about the 9570 and $1000+ for a year service plan, *ouch*. I'd rather not. Over at the groups.io Epson forum, another user suggested I get the p9000. I have barely used matte black so far, so I don't see that as a big deal for me, but are there any comparisons of the inks and the imaging between the two? Could anybody advise? I'm a little wary of buying a six year old printer since the state of drivers (on the Mac at least) is such that they tend to get discontinued quickly (and inks as well). But I also don't want to buy a mental grenade. Any thoughts?