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Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Timur_Born on October 30, 2019, 06:02:43 am

Title: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on October 30, 2019, 06:02:43 am
Hello everyone!

Currently I am using Photoshop exclusively for printing, because I have not found any other software that offers the functions of its print dialog. Specifically I am looking for software that can print manually selected parts out of a larger image, but not just automatically tiling for posters.

For example, the original image is 162 x 213 cm (64 x 84 inches), from which I need to print manually selected parts on DIN A4 paper which is  21 x 29.7 cm (8,268 x 11,693 inches). I could crop these parts out of the image with other software, but since I need to print several different parts that are meant to align with each other that would mean several extra steps and more difficulties them. Most programs also don't allows to set proper margins manually, don't offer to save these as convenient presets or cannot handle images of such large sizes well (if at all).

Many also fail to read virtual printer paper sizes from the print driver, which brings me to the next point:

When my Epson 3880 printer is set to borderless printing *without* upsizing the image then it virtually increases the paper size (think canvas size in PS). DIN A4 paper then increases to a virtual size of 30.69 x 21.98 cm. PS' then allows to use "Print Selected Area" to set print borders that fit DIN A4's original size and thus print borderless without using bad printer driver upsizing and without spilling much (if any) ink over the paper borders. Additionally some prints don't need content on the whole paper, so it's a quick way of keeping more space blank.

I looked into *lots* of other software, but so far found nothing that offers any of the functions of Photoshop. So I am open to suggestions.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on October 30, 2019, 10:37:45 am
Hello everyone!

Currently I am using Photoshop exclusively for printing, because I have not found any other software that offers the functions of its print dialog. Specifically I am looking for software that can print manually selected parts out of a larger image, but not just automatically tiling for posters.

For example, the original image is 162 x 213 cm (64 x 84 inches), from which I need to print manually selected parts on DIN A4 paper which is  21 x 29.7 cm (8,268 x 11,693 inches). I could crop these parts out of the image with other software, but since I need to print several different parts that are meant to align with each other that would mean several extra steps and more difficulties them. Most programs also don't allows to set proper margins manually, don't offer to save these as convenient presets or cannot handle images of such large sizes well (if at all).

Many also fail to read virtual printer paper sizes from the print driver, which brings me to the next point:

When my Epson 3880 printer is set to borderless printing *without* upsizing the image then it virtually increases the paper size (think canvas size in PS). DIN A4 paper then increases to a virtual size of 30.69 x 21.98 cm. PS' then allows to use "Print Selected Area" to set print borders that fit DIN A4's original size and thus print borderless without using bad printer driver upsizing and without spilling much (if any) ink over the paper borders. Additionally some prints don't need content on the whole paper, so it's a quick way of keeping more space blank.

I looked into *lots* of other software, but so far found nothing that offers any of the functions of Photoshop. So I am open to suggestions.

Hi,

Have you looked at Qimage yet?
https://www.binartem.com/qimageone/

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on October 30, 2019, 11:52:31 am
The FREE Epson Print Layout allows you to 'virtually' crop a portion of the image like Photoshop and despite what their web site says, does support the 3880.
Open image, select "Crop", configure": Only that area prints through this substitute print driver from Epson and allows ABW while soft proofing your image!
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: jrsforums on October 30, 2019, 11:53:20 am
Hi,

Have you looked at Qimage yet?
https://www.binartem.com/qimageone/

Cheers,
Bart
+1
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on October 30, 2019, 12:32:16 pm
Yes, I looked at Qimage. It is a 32-bit program that cannot open these large files. When a tried with smaller files to find out about Qimage abilities I unfortunately did not succeed at doing what I needed due to the somewhat convoluted UI or due to the functions not being supported.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on October 30, 2019, 12:47:01 pm
Yes, I looked at Qimage. It is a 32-bit program that cannot open these large files. When a tried with smaller files to find out about Qimage abilities I unfortunately did not succeed at doing what I needed due to the somewhat convoluted UI or due to the functions not being supported.

Depending on the file type, there may be other size restrictions from the Operating System or File type. Besides, the print pipeline is 8-bit/channel so if that's the bottleneck, change to 8-b/ch mode first. Qimage dithers the output after resizing and Colorspace conversion, so it basically offers close to 9-bit/channel smooth gradients.
 
Did the files start that large, or did you upscale them first?

Qimage is also very good at upscaling.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on October 30, 2019, 02:00:47 pm
The files are upscaled via Topaz Gigapixel AI, which is superior to QImage. QImage cannot handle such large amounts of source data due to its 32-bit memory restrictions. 64 x 84 inches at 360 dpi is about 23040 x 30240 pixels, resulting in 1.993 gb of raw image data. QImage can only reserve a maximum of exactly 2 gb memory and needs some memory for its operation and other functions, despite (other) 32-bit programs being allowed to reserve up to 3 gb.

That being said, I did manage to get QImage to work using its own resizing and Page Edit -> Zoom function. In essence it does a crop, but with an interface closer to the Photoshop Print dialog. It's less precise in placement, due to the Zoom window being so small and the alternative crop window not allowing to zoom it, but it gets the job done.

Getting to the correct zoom ratio is somewhat convoluted, because QImage calls the image being shrinked to page size 1x zoom. So first I have to pull the zoom level until I get to the original DPI (72 dpi on my test image = 5x zoom). Then I have to apply the upsizing factor to the zoom level (1.42 x 5 = 7.1 in my test case). Next I can set print sizes and use the small zoom window to choose the right crop via mouse-dragging, somewhat similar to PS (but much smaller).

Because the result is just a crop out of the larger image QImage then is able to upsample that single page to 300/360 dpi (depending on printer) without running out of memory.

Would I use that as an alternative to Photoshop's "Preserve Details (2)" upsampling, even though PS also allows me to do all the proper measurements and calculations much more easily? Yes. Would I use that as an alternative to Gigapixel? No, I got spoiled.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on October 30, 2019, 02:10:29 pm
Besides, the print pipeline is 8-bit/channel so if that's the bottleneck, change to 8-b/ch mode first.
Not the print pipeline TO the 3880 from the Epson driver on Mac (not that it brings anything to the party). YMMV.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on October 30, 2019, 03:40:21 pm
These large images I am printing are only 24 bit (8 bit per channel) anyway. Their data/file size stems from their large dimensions.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on October 31, 2019, 04:01:38 am
I also tried "Epson Print Layout" before and still have it installed on my desktop. Its crops mode seems useless for my use case, because it resizes the image down to the paper size before any cropping happens. I did not find a way to load the image at full size and then place only a part of it on the paper. Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: mcbroomf on October 31, 2019, 04:33:21 am
Did you look at Imageprint?  A new video on Photopxl shows a mural layout (~7 mins), and cropping at ~13 mins.  I think you can try it.  RED is the cheaper version, tho' still pricey.
https://photopxl.com/pxl-print-imageprint-video-2/
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on October 31, 2019, 05:18:12 am
Thanks for the suggestion, it's well appreciated!

R.E.D. only comes with "Essential layout tools" and costs as much as 40 months of Adobe subscription (PS + LR). It offers a "Crop & Zoom" feature, but it does not look like it allows to just zoom in to 100% and then use a page-sized crop box. I would have to ask for the trial download to test that, but the price and fact that I would not make much use of the other features makes it not the most appealing alternative.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on October 31, 2019, 11:45:43 am
I also tried "Epson Print Layout" before and still have it installed on my desktop. Its crops mode seems useless for my use case, because it resizes the image down to the paper size before any cropping happens.
Nope, it can crop to size as well. Try again.  ;D
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on October 31, 2019, 12:20:34 pm
Then be so kind and tell me how, because when I load an image into the application it is resized to the paper size. I can then crop a part out of it which again is resized to the paper size. I find no means of having my image show at 100% and then print a part out onto the paper without the application resizing anything. It also seems rather inconvenient having to crop out a part, then print, then undo, then crop the next part (with no alignment help around) and so on.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on October 31, 2019, 02:46:05 pm
Image Size>Crop. Not much different than PS.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on October 31, 2019, 03:22:10 pm
There is no "Image Size" here (Windows), but of there is "Crop Image". As mentioned this does not do what I need, so the Epson tool is no viable alternative.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on October 31, 2019, 04:08:37 pm
There is no "Image Size" here (Windows), but of there is "Crop Image". As mentioned this does not do what I need, so the Epson tool is no viable alternative.
Well on this end, it crops and scales, so I’m not sure what else you desire and supposed you’re screwed and have to use Photoshop. Not sure why that’s a problem unless you don’t own a copy.....
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on October 31, 2019, 04:33:31 pm
The main problem is that I am paying a monthly fee for strong software that I only use the print function off. Another problem is the total lack of proper support (no ticket system, "community support") and the print dialog being bugged for years already (workarounds exist). So despite me paying monthly I don't even get the benefit of good support.

Epson crop function automatically scales to page size. I don't want to use Epson's lower quality resampling, that's what I am using Gigapixel for. And the scale function is all mouse-dragging without any information of crop sizes or possibility to do fine adjustments. And in order to print several parts out of a big image you have to do repeated crops and undo, all without proper fine-control.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on October 31, 2019, 04:40:43 pm
Another problem is the total lack of proper support (no ticket system, "community support") and the print dialog being bugged for years already (workarounds exist). So despite me paying monthly I don't even get the benefit of good support.
Again no, there is all kinds of Adobe Photoshop support, several user to user forums and otherwise; need links?
https://helpx.adobe.com/support/photoshop.html (https://helpx.adobe.com/support/photoshop.html)
https://community.adobe.com/t5/Photoshop/bd-p/photoshop (https://community.adobe.com/t5/Photoshop/bd-p/photoshop)
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family (https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family)
https://www.adobe.com/products/request-consultation/creative-cloud.html (https://www.adobe.com/products/request-consultation/creative-cloud.html)
You're not trying but fine; I'm done attempting to help you.  ;)


"There are times in life when, instead of complaining, you do something about your complaints" - Rita Dove
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on October 31, 2019, 04:46:01 pm
User to user forums are not proper support. Proper support is when you get backtracking for a reported problem, preferably with a ticket number and either e-mail or support form contacts.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on October 31, 2019, 04:52:07 pm
https://helpx.adobe.com/support/photoshop.html (https://helpx.adobe.com/support/photoshop.html)
This is a link to tutorial and guides. This does not help with bugs.

Quote
https://community.adobe.com/t5/Photoshop/bd-p/photoshop (https://community.adobe.com/t5/Photoshop/bd-p/photoshop)
This is the community (mostly user to user) forum that is overrun with new posts, so that posts get burried within minutes. I never got any useful answer from there, even less so any reply from Adobe.

Quote
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family (https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family)
Again community forum.

Quote
https://www.adobe.com/products/request-consultation/creative-cloud.html (https://www.adobe.com/products/request-consultation/creative-cloud.html)
This is for sales talk where Adobe tells you what products fit your demands.

Quote
You're not trying but fine; I'm done attempting to help you.  ;)
And you are condescending and not even reading my posts properly, but fine.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on October 31, 2019, 05:26:19 pm
User to user forums are not proper support. Proper support is when you get backtracking for a reported problem, preferably with a ticket number and either e-mail or support form contacts.
You incorrectly said "no community support" now you state it's not proper (rubbish), you incorrectly state there is no ticketing support systems (there are). It seems you are unable to accept useful answers from anyone but you are pretty darn good at complaining. Enough said; solve your problems alone and yourself. 🤮
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 03, 2019, 03:38:56 am
I wrote "no proper support = no ticket system" comma "community support". I did not mean "no community support", that may not have been clear. But we are discussing semantics again. And while I appreciate community support it's the equivalent of shouting your support case into a city full of people. Someone might answer, but most of the time people just walk by and look at you funny.

We pay Adobe monthly to get proper support and I do not see how to get real support interaction when a bug keeps disrupting my workflow. If you know how to get to real ticket or e-mail support (as in the status of my support call can be traced and referred to), I will happily use that path.

Especially now that my Adobe subscription has been renewed and I did not find a suitable alternative. So it seems that I will keep (ab)using Photoshop for my large print jobs.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: dgberg on November 03, 2019, 06:21:49 am
And no one has mentioned Lightroom?
It certainly cannot do everything but IMO beats Photoshop hands down and I have them all. (Well most)
Qimage,Photoshop CC, Capture One 12,On1 Photo Raw and Lightroom Classic.
I am intrigued by Qimage but everytime I try and give it a go I fall back on what I know best, Lightroom.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on November 03, 2019, 08:16:36 am
Hello everyone!

Currently I am using Photoshop exclusively for printing, because I have not found any other software that offers the functions of its print dialog. Specifically I am looking for software that can print manually selected parts out of a larger image, but not just automatically tiling for posters.

For example, the original image is 162 x 213 cm (64 x 84 inches), from which I need to print manually selected parts on DIN A4 paper which is  21 x 29.7 cm (8,268 x 11,693 inches). I could crop these parts out of the image with other software, but since I need to print several different parts that are meant to align with each other that would mean several extra steps and more difficulties them. Most programs also don't allows to set proper margins manually, don't offer to save these as convenient presets or cannot handle images of such large sizes well (if at all).

Many also fail to read virtual printer paper sizes from the print driver, which brings me to the next point:

When my Epson 3880 printer is set to borderless printing *without* upsizing the image then it virtually increases the paper size (think canvas size in PS). DIN A4 paper then increases to a virtual size of 30.69 x 21.98 cm. PS' then allows to use "Print Selected Area" to set print borders that fit DIN A4's original size and thus print borderless without using bad printer driver upsizing and without spilling much (if any) ink over the paper borders. Additionally some prints don't need content on the whole paper, so it's a quick way of keeping more space blank.

I looked into *lots* of other software, but so far found nothing that offers any of the functions of Photoshop. So I am open to suggestions.

As I am intrigued with the conditions you set in your request, I try to analyze what your goal is. The resampling method you selected is a good one, it has been discussed here often enough. Pity that the software has not printer interface to do that on the fly with a print job.

An Epson 3880 printer that can print up to A2+ size is used for A4s printed borderless. Not for tiles to make a stitched poster but for a kind of mosaic of A4 sheets. Not for proof prints as you could do that as well with borders on the A4s. You like to keep the whole, huge image as the source to print from, not manual crops selected from that image saved for that phase of sample printing.

You can not use two image halves, less than 1 GB each, so Qimage Ultimate could cope with the image size and proof parts to A4+ or as an alternative several proof parts on a larger sheet?  I would also cut the file in 3 parts and use the 5 parts next to one another in QU thumbs viewing. Selecting the parts to print on an A2+ print page so you have already a preview of the alignment. Then four A4s can be printed as stitched already or slightly separated if cutting to A4s is needed. Book, artistic necessity, those A4s?  QU has some proofing methods that allows selected parts to be printed while it keeps the image files intact. I never use borderless as I find it far more reliable to use a larger paper and cut back to the sizes I need, ending with a borderless print or with exact border dimensions that are not set by the sheet size or the image position on the sheet. Much of your issues with other printer interfaces are due to your choice for a kind of borderless printing on A4 that only the PS printer interface copes with.

So the file that huge will in the end never be printed in total on for example a 65" wide format? 

Did you try to get help in the QU forum or propose a new feature for QU ?  The QU forum and Mike Chaney form that community you seek I think.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots





Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 03, 2019, 11:41:40 am
And no one has mentioned Lightroom?
Unfortunately going via Lightroom seems rather complicated and it would just leave me with the very same subscription anyway. In LR I would first have to import the large image and then go back and forth between crop mode and print mode. Several more steps than in Photoshop I fear. But thanks for the suggestion, it's well appreciated.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 03, 2019, 12:06:27 pm
Unfortunately going via Lightroom seems rather complicated and it would just leave me with the very same subscription anyway.
Yes but...
Quote
In LR I would first have to import the large image and then go back and forth between crop mode and print mode. Several more steps than in Photoshop I fear.

Actually no, if you understand how to use the various options within just the Print Module. Just so some can continue posting the facts of how these products actually work. And far more options than anything PS offers for printing.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 03, 2019, 03:31:55 pm
Would you please stop posting the same (non-)answer of "You just have to do it right" over and over again? Thank you.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 03, 2019, 03:34:44 pm
Would you please stop posting the same (non-)answer of "You just have to do it right" over and over again? Thank you.
IF you want these products suggested to work as they can, you kind of have to understand how to use them correctly. You’ve illustrated with two suggested products, you don’t. 😈
I think some people enjoy complaining almost as much as they enjoy doing nothing about it.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 03, 2019, 04:04:55 pm
As I am intrigued with the conditions you set in your request, I try to analyze what your goal is.
Thanks for chiming in, it's well appreciated!

I am printing plans for private table-top gaming where only part of the plan is revealed during a game. So printing the whole large plan would reveal all at once (and need a larger printer) and printing poster-tiles would cut the content at the wrong parts. Think of splitting a large architectural CAD drawing into smaller DIN A4 part where the rooms on the drawing dictate where to crop each smaller print. Also think about 300 g/m² photo-quality paper costing next to nothing compared to bigger paper. I do sometimes use A3 and A2, but rather occasionally.

Quote
The resampling method you selected is a good one, it has been discussed here often enough. Pity that the software has not printer interface to do that on the fly with a print job.
Well, the printer does resample to its native DPI on the fly, but likely only using something easily calculated such as bilinear.

The original images I am printing out include grid-lines that are supposed to be 1 inch apart, but the source images are smaller than the output size and even compressed (usually being part of a PDF). I used Photoshop's resampling in the past, but Gigapixel AI (up to version 4.2.2) is perfect for these artificial plans and invents lots of useful details (plus perfectly rounding aliased lines). Just another function of Photoshop that I do *not* use anymore thanks to Gigapixel. I resize to the destination size and DPI (360 for the Epson, 300 for my HP color laserprinter) and then print at that native DPI to keep the print driver out of the resampling pipeline.

Quote
You can not use two image halves, less than 1 GB each, so Qimage Ultimate could cope with the image size and proof parts to A4+ or as an alternative several proof parts on a larger sheet?
That would kind of be possible, but quite a hassle. Not only because it involved extra steps, but also because the halves would likely cut right through image content that I need on a single sheet of paper. Just loading one huge image into the software and then starting the print dialog to manually select the crop really is a big time-saver (albeit somewhat buggy in PS).

Quote
QU has some proofing methods that allows selected parts to be printed while it keeps the image files intact.
No proofing necessary, just printing silly gaming material to lay out on a table and put miniature gaming figures on. This is why I wrote about "abusing" Photoshop. I really pay for this much bigger software just to print this stuff. Additionally I do have much use for Lightroom, but find that alternatives are getting more and more viable, like using Mylio for its much better face detection.

Quote
I never use borderless as I find it far more reliable to use a larger paper and cut back to the sizes I need, ending with a borderless print or with exact border dimensions that are not set by the sheet size or the image position on the sheet.
It saves having to cut all sides on sometimes dozens of prints and allows to squeeze more content on a single page, which makes things easier again. For smaller plans I often just use my HP color printer and then cut around the margins (cannot do borderless).

That being said, when I print out photos of/for our family I also like to print borderless. And the combination of the software detecting the virtually larger page size from the printer and being able to set exact print margins (down to 0.x mm) helps to keep the spill-over small. Especially since I do not want the printer driver to enlarge the image, since that would be using (fast/sub-par) resampling again.

Quote
Much of your issues with other printer interfaces are due to your choice for a kind of borderless printing on A4 that only the PS printer interface copes with.
I would not say so, because the problems are the same when I print with borders on the HP. Borderless is just another complication on top of the others.

Quote
So the file that huge will in the end never be printed in total on for example a 65" wide format? 
Exactly, but I do need to have manual control over how the images are cropped and aligned. The latter is important, because on the table the prints are put together to form a large image/map again.

Quote
Did you try to get help in the QU forum or propose a new feature for QU ?  The QU forum and Mike Chaney form that community you seek I think.
I think that I asked about a 64-bit version a few years back, but I only found an outgoing e-mail reporting a bug (with no answer coming back).

My yearly Adobe subscription just got renewed on 2th, so next year I can look around again.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 03, 2019, 04:33:16 pm
Quote
then print at that native DPI to keep the print driver out of the resampling pipeline.
Well, the printer does resample to its native DPI on the fly, but likely only using something easily calculated such as bilinear.
https://www.digitalphotopro.com/technique/photography-workflow/the-right-resolution/ (https://www.digitalphotopro.com/technique/photography-workflow/the-right-resolution/) :

....Now there’s some question of where and how this data gets resampled.
Answer above starting on page 2. For your 3880 and Epson/Canon printers.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 03, 2019, 07:49:37 pm
I am sure that using a reasonably lower DPI would work for my purposes (like half native DPI), especially with the laser printer. But the upsampling done by Gigapixel is a night & day difference compared to other means. Going for the printer's native DPI then is just the icing on the cake and makes sure nothing else messes things up (even more so when printing borderless).

Using a lower image DPI would decrease file size and thus mitigate 32-bit memory restrictions, of course. But that would not solve the original problem of looking for an alternative that should not be much less convenient and precise to use. With PS it's as easy as: Load large image (as in inches/cm), open print dialog, print smaller crop out of the larger image that precisely aligns with image content and neighboring prints.

Qimage offers a crop mode, like many other programs. But it does not allow me to conveniently and precisely crop the image content, especially not for "mass" printout. I have yet to find a software other than Photoshop that does. Until then I will have to stay in the subscription plan, mostly use only a single function of this powerful software and hope that the print dialog bugs get sorted some day (workaround is to flip portrait/landscape back and forth).
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Stephen Ray on November 03, 2019, 10:33:08 pm
I am sure that using a reasonably lower DPI would work for my purposes (like half native DPI), especially with the laser printer. But the upsampling done by Gigapixel is a night & day difference compared to other means. Going for the printer's native DPI then is just the icing on the cake and makes sure nothing else messes things up (even more so when printing borderless).

Using a lower image DPI would decrease file size and thus mitigate 32-bit memory restrictions, of course. But that would not solve the original problem of looking for an alternative that should not be much less convenient and precise to use. With PS it's as easy as: Load large image (as in inches/cm), open print dialog, print smaller crop out of the larger image that precisely aligns with image content and neighboring prints.

Qimage offers a crop mode, like many other programs. But it does not allow me to conveniently and precisely crop the image content, especially not for "mass" printout. I have yet to find a software other than Photoshop that does. Until then I will have to stay in the subscription plan, mostly use only a single function of this powerful software and hope that the print dialog bugs get sorted some day (workaround is to flip portrait/landscape back and forth).

Look into Onyx or Caldera RIP software which will drive the printer fully. With some experience, you might learn how "print dots" are ultimately formed from "image pixels" and how various transformations may affect your seemingly judicious up-rez efforts making them superfluous, especially at the somewhat long print length you're after. You will notice a particular setting for both width and length size compensation which is practically always necessary in order to produce the print at the expected final large format size. (Usually unnoticed at small print sizes.) This size compensation control in critical not only for size but also print quality. Properly set, the RIP will know how to compensate and size the small cropped image area from the large image area.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 04, 2019, 04:23:01 am
Could you elaborate what you mean by "size compensation"? Keep in mind that this is not a large print that is being looked at from a large distance, it is many small prints that are looked at from a close distance (0.3 - 1 m / 1 - 3 ft).

RIP software is more expensive than just keeping Photoshop for many years to come and even more overkill for what I am doing with it.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on November 04, 2019, 04:44:54 am
Thanks for chiming in, it's well appreciated!

I am printing plans for private table-top gaming where only part of the plan is revealed during a game. So printing the whole large plan would reveal all at once (and need a larger printer) and printing poster-tiles would cut the content at the wrong parts. Think of splitting a large architectural CAD drawing into smaller DIN A4 part where the rooms on the drawing dictate where to crop each smaller print. Also think about 300 g/m² photo-quality paper costing next to nothing compared to bigger paper. I do sometimes use A3 and A2, but rather occasionally.
Well, the printer does resample to its native DPI on the fly, but likely only using something easily calculated such as bilinear.

The original images I am printing out include grid-lines that are supposed to be 1 inch apart, but the source images are smaller than the output size and even compressed (usually being part of a PDF). I used Photoshop's resampling in the past, but Gigapixel AI (up to version 4.2.2) is perfect for these artificial plans and invents lots of useful details (plus perfectly rounding aliased lines). Just another function of Photoshop that I do *not* use anymore thanks to Gigapixel. I resize to the destination size and DPI (360 for the Epson, 300 for my HP color laserprinter) and then print at that native DPI to keep the print driver out of the resampling pipeline.
That would kind of be possible, but quite a hassle. Not only because it involved extra steps, but also because the halves would likely cut right through image content that I need on a single sheet of paper. Just loading one huge image into the software and then starting the print dialog to manually select the crop really is a big time-saver (albeit somewhat buggy in PS).
No proofing necessary, just printing silly gaming material to lay out on a table and put miniature gaming figures on. This is why I wrote about "abusing" Photoshop. I really pay for this much bigger software just to print this stuff. Additionally I do have much use for Lightroom, but find that alternatives are getting more and more viable, like using Mylio for its much better face detection.
It saves having to cut all sides on sometimes dozens of prints and allows to squeeze more content on a single page, which makes things easier again. For smaller plans I often just use my HP color printer and then cut around the margins (cannot do borderless).

That being said, when I print out photos of/for our family I also like to print borderless. And the combination of the software detecting the virtually larger page size from the printer and being able to set exact print margins (down to 0.x mm) helps to keep the spill-over small. Especially since I do not want the printer driver to enlarge the image, since that would be using (fast/sub-par) resampling again.
I would not say so, because the problems are the same when I print with borders on the HP. Borderless is just another complication on top of the others.
Exactly, but I do need to have manual control over how the images are cropped and aligned. The latter is important, because on the table the prints are put together to form a large image/map again.
I think that I asked about a 64-bit version a few years back, but I only found an outgoing e-mail reporting a bug (with no answer coming back).

My yearly Adobe subscription just got renewed on 2th, so next year I can look around again.

For your game I would prepare two or more copies of the image file, upsample with Topaz, cut out the parts that should not be visible (per copy to overcome overlaps of uncharted territory), save as JPEG 100% quality (white areas help a lot to compress to a maintainable file then). Print 1:1 in normal mode and at whatever paper size that is sensible for cutting and for use in the game. Your estimation of paper sizes/prices is not one that correlates with my experience.

Qimage Ultimate resamples on the fly in the print data creation phase, no driver resampling involved. Pity that Topaz has no similar function. That is what I meant.  For your HP laser printer the Topaz Gigapixel resampling seems overkill or you have a special liking for extreme content invention by Topaz Gigapixel.

The chances you cut through areas you need by halving the image file are there, that is why I suggested to use halves + one thirds.


If a customer asks me for a job like that I will find a solution within the tools I have. He will explain the ins and outs. I will be paid and have a satisfied customer, enough self confidence aboard for that statement.   In general, reading between the lines, I see you like to avoid costs in labor, media, software, learning, and that for your very special hobby print job. You have a solution that you think is one of a kind and like to see whether the printing communities in the rest of the world are able to add another one that is equivalent or better. Slowly revealing aspects of the job in the discussion but not all. Consider your request as another game you created with the manual also written by you, not to mention you being the referee.  I think you are wasting our time on this .... maybe it brings some pleasure to you. There are names for that behavior on the web. Do not come back next year I would say. Andrew was not wrong this time.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots







Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 04, 2019, 07:20:58 am
Quote
Qimage Ultimate resamples on the fly in the print data creation phase, no driver resampling involved. Pity that Topaz has no similar function. That is what I meant.
Yes, I noticed that in my latest trial of Qimage. And since the upsampling is done after the cropping this circumvents possible (32 bit) memory issues.

Quote
Pity that Topaz has no similar function.
Even "worse", when you use other than 100% zoom (preview) in Gigapixel it does not just resample the image to 200% or 400%, but it does a full invented content creation at that new zoom level. This means that the preview (200%/400%) differs from the real output (100%). The same applies for different DPI settings in Gigapixel, higher resolution means different calculation and content creation, not just upsampling.

Quote
For your HP laser printer the Topaz Gigapixel resampling seems overkill or you have a special liking for extreme content invention by Topaz Gigapixel.
Indeed, for the HP it's overkill, about 150 DPI (half the native resolution) would be sufficient. I am mostly using the Epson for printing, though, but will try half the resolution there, too. I do have a liking for the content invention by Gigapixel in this case, because the original content is artificial anyway and its native resolution is very low (plus possible compression artifacts).

Quote
The chances you cut through areas you need by halving the image file are there, that is why I suggested to use halves + one thirds.
I need all areas, but not at once. Thus I need to control what parts get printed on a single sheet of paper. But in the end the whole image is printed, just not via simple poster tiling.

Well, it all sounds more complex than it really is. Photoshop allows to print crops out of large images without extra steps, you just drag and drop the image on top of the paper, no extra cropping, no memory limitations, full support for virtual driver paper sizes.

Now I wondered if other software can do that at a better cost-benefit ratio, being astounded that there does not seem to be. Using Photoshop just for printing gaming maps is throwing pearls (PS) before the swines (me), plus it's a bit buggy. The programs I checked (over half a dozen) do not offer such extended printing functions, but obviously I cannot know every software on the market. Well, it seems that I will have to keep using the pearls (PS) for the time being.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: free1000 on November 05, 2019, 12:03:54 pm
Lightroom is by far my favourite printing option.  A big plus is its handling of templating and collections. 

I'd also like to find a non-Adobe version, there are plenty of other options now from vendors who don't routinely 'lose' your personal data by publishing it on the web.

However I can't find anything comparable.  Epson Print looks interesting, but with one of my printers thats a bit older, (R1800) it doesn't provide much driver support, I can't turn off the gloss optimiser for example. It would probably work better with my P800 when I get a chance to try.

So far other than Lightroom I'm using Affinity Publisher for various outputs where I need a custom layout, but I wouldn't find it useful for art printing.  I think Affinity Photo would be fine (it worked well before my Catalina update so I can still use it on my Mojave print machine) but its annoying that Printing is currently buggy on Catalina, that will pass of course.

My feeling is that a combination of these products would handle my use cases.  I have no problem with paying £10 a month for Lightroom and PS except that I hardly ever need PS now and I begrudge the hegemony of Adobe and the cost of using other products from their suite.  I have to focus on short subscriptions for using After Effects, and it can be problematic ending a subscription at times (Adobe have cunning ways of stopping you via an e-commerce portal that sometimes just says 'No')

For straight image printing Affinity Photo
For layouts with a new Epson printer, possibly Epson Print Layout
For publications, brochures, cards etc. Affinity Publisher
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: BobShaw on November 05, 2019, 05:54:14 pm
Currently I am using Photoshop exclusively for printing
Why? Photoshop is an editing programme. Use a print programme for printing. I use Mirage Print but there are lots.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: free1000 on November 06, 2019, 06:47:16 am
Why? Photoshop is an editing programme. Use a print programme for printing. I use Mirage Print but there are lots.

 
What would you say is the feature or set of features that makes that level of expense worthwhile.

Are there any of the other print software you would recommend that has say 80% of the capability at a lower cost? 
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 06, 2019, 07:34:46 am
Lightroom is by far my favourite printing option.  A big plus is its handling of templating and collections. 
Unfortunately there are some limitations that make Lightroom unusable for my usage case.

- Crop mode can only set a crop ratio, but not a precise crop size. Because of this I cannot crop DIN A4 sized chunks out of the source image to print at 1:1. The crop is then resampled to the cell size, so even manually trying to find the correct size does not guarantee that you end up with a 1:1 print.

- It cannot read images with uncompressed size close to 2 gb, 1.94 gb fails already. This is not necessarily a problem for my images, because usually they stay below that threshold (my test image is 1.35 gb uncompressed).

- If I use Lightroom then I could keep using Photoshop, which is more convenient to use for this kind of usage-case. It's the same subscription and support. No problem doing so, but also no harm in looking for possible alternatives with better cost-benefit ratio.

Quote
For straight image printing Affinity Photo
For layouts with a new Epson printer, possibly Epson Print Layout
These did not work for my usage-case.

Quote
For publications, brochures, cards etc. Affinity Publisher
Someone suggested its predecessor "Serif Drawplus" to me, which might be able to do what I need. I will check both.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 06, 2019, 08:16:11 am
Why? Photoshop is an editing programme. Use a print programme for printing. I use Mirage Print but there are lots.
I did not mean that I use Photoshop as my only software for printing. I meant that I mostly only use Photoshop's printing functions.

That being said I just tried Mirage Print and it can load these large files successfully. Furthermore its "Page Preview" does allow to drag the print crop around in order to print a small portion out of the big image. There are several drawbacks, though, that do not make it a viable alternative to Photoshop for this usage-case.

- It only offers "overprint" borderless printing, which always includes its own resampling.

- It only works with my Epson 3880 printer, but not with the HP Color Laserjet.

- Borders do not work with 100% size. Once any border is set the image is resampled to fit the page.

- It costs at least as much as 2.5 years of Adobe subscription (PS + LR), after that time it becomes less expensive, but still coming with the above limitations.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 06, 2019, 07:01:27 pm
I did not mean that I use Photoshop as my only software for printing. I meant that I mostly only use Photoshop's printing functions.

That being said I just tried Mirage Print and it can load these large files successfully. Furthermore its "Page Preview" does allow to drag the print crop around in order to print a small portion out of the big image. There are several drawbacks, though, that do not make it a viable alternative to Photoshop for this usage-case.

- It only offers "overprint" borderless printing, which always includes its own resampling.

- It only works with my Epson 3880 printer, but not with the HP Color Laserjet.

- Borders do not work with 100% size. Once any border is set the image is resampled to fit the page.

- It costs at least as much as 2.5 years of Adobe subscription (PS + LR), after that time it becomes less expensive, but still coming with the above limitations.

Qimage (https://www.binartem.com/qimageone/) is much more flexible, cheaper, and has no artificial brand and/or output size limitations (other than physical ones). One application handles any printer that has a printer driver for any given Operating sytem that's supported by the printer manufacturer.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: enduser on November 06, 2019, 07:33:29 pm
Qimage is the best print software.  It takes a bit of learning to get the result you want but it is mightily  flexible in what it can do. (Not as obtuse as "Gimp", though.). For example, you can place multiple imaages on one page and apply a different .icc profile to each one! (Not what you are talking about, but an example of its features.)
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2019, 08:34:21 pm
For example, you can place multiple imaages on one page and apply a different .icc profile to each one!
I'm at a loss why you'd do that. But the ability to use differing Rendering Intents with the same profile on one or more images could be really useful.
I downloaded the demo, it does look very nice. And the price is pretty reasonable. I didn't have it on my radar for years because until recently, Windows only. But it's thankfully cross platform now. Also nice is, you can print color targets for profiling as there is a no color management option for output which is always nice to find. Plan to make some actual prints tomorrow and see how the sharpening compares to say LR. Overall, it looks like a very nice product for the money.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: BobShaw on November 06, 2019, 11:56:00 pm
I did not mean that I use Photoshop as my only software for printing. I meant that I mostly only use Photoshop's printing functions.

That being said I just tried Mirage Print and it can load these large files successfully. Furthermore its "Page Preview" does allow to drag the print crop around in order to print a small portion out of the big image. There are several drawbacks, though, that do not make it a viable alternative to Photoshop for this usage-case.

- It only offers "overprint" borderless printing, which always includes its own resampling.

- It only works with my Epson 3880 printer, but not with the HP Color Laserjet.

- Borders do not work with 100% size. Once any border is set the image is resampled to fit the page.

- It costs at least as much as 2.5 years of Adobe subscription (PS + LR), after that time it becomes less expensive, but still coming with the above limitations.
- I don't do borderless printing. It just wastes ink. Print to the size you want on roll paper. (Yes, you can use roll paper on the 3880, you just have to feed it in the back)
- Yes, Epson and Canon only.
- as above. Print to the size you want.
- I got my new V4 virtually free with the P800, but yes, there is an initial cost usually.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 07, 2019, 05:00:50 am
- I don't do borderless printing. It just wastes ink. Print to the size you want on roll paper. (Yes, you can use roll paper on the 3880, you just have to feed it in the back)
It does not waste ink if you print borderless without "overprint". Mirage does not offer that option, but the Epson driver does. The driver reports the paper as slightly larger then, in turn you can place the print on that virtually larger paper to fit the physical paper size. No resampling/enlargement is happening, spill is minimal depending on how straight the paper was pulled in (more skew = more spill).

Quote
- as above. Print to the size you want.
On the Epson I want borderless DIN A4 size for the usage-case I started this thread for. I sometimes print dozens of crops/sheets that together make (part of ) a very large image/map when laid flat on a table next to each other. Printing borderless means that I don't have to precisely cut all four sides of my prints and get more content per sheet. Saves time and paper.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 07, 2019, 05:02:37 am
Qimage is the best print software.  It takes a bit of learning to get the result you want but it is mightily  flexible in what it can do.
But its print crop dialog is (much) too small for precise placement and the combination of paper-size and border does not work properly in my tests.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 07, 2019, 08:47:04 am
But its print crop dialog is (much) too small for precise placement and the combination of paper-size and border does not work properly in my tests.

Make sure you specify the correct things, e.g. printed area is not the same as paper size (if that's what causes the issue). Dimensions can be specified with a high level of precision, and accuracy. There may also be a difference between nominal paper sizes and actually cut sizes in the box or on the roll.

Qimage One Printer Settings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39EUYSGcNmM

Positioning Prints in Qimage One
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoN7QT4NXNk

P.S. If you are using Qimage Ultimate (Windows only, unless you use Parallels or a similar tool on a Mac), there are some more features and separate video tutorials.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 07, 2019, 03:28:01 pm
Make sure you specify the correct things, e.g. printed area is not the same as paper size (if that's what causes the issue).
Turned out that this was an issue of Qimage not updating its crop/border limits when virtual paper size changes (borderless vs. non-borderless) or the print driver is changed. It can be forced to update them which then allows me to set the correct crop size.

Here is a screenshot that demonstrates how Qimage does properly read out the (virtual) paper size from the driver, but it may still inflict the lesser printed area boundaries of the smaller physical size when its crop parameters are not forced to update.

(https://i.imgur.com/gdiyE9o.png)

The last part shows one problem with Qimage. In order to get 1:1 crops/prints I would have to zoom the crop to exactly 360 dpi, but the zoom lever is not precise enough and thus jumps between 359 and 362 dpi in a single step. There is no way to enter the zoom factor / DPI manually.

There are some more issues, one of which is that Qimage tends to run out of memory with these large images and then more and more errors creep in or options cease to function unless Qimage is reloaded.

I also noticed that various TIFF files cannot be loaded with my test image.

Qimage cannot load the following TIFF files:

ACDSee uncompressed, LZW, ZIP
FastStone ZIP
Gigapixel uncompressed, LZW, ZIP
Photoshop uncompressed


QImage can load the following TIFF files:

FastStone uncompressed, LZW
Gimp uncompressed, LZW, ZIP
IrfanView uncompressed, LZW, ZIP
Photoshop LZW, ZIP
XNViewMP uncompressed, LZW, ZIP

Furthermore it cannot load Photoshop PNG.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2019, 03:44:37 pm
Qimage cannot load the following TIFF files:
ACDSee uncompressed, LZW, ZIP
FastStone ZIP
Gigapixel uncompressed, LZW, ZIP
Photoshop uncompressed
Bugs writing TIFFs (we've been over this too many times) or an issue on your side because:
Quote
QImage can load the following TIFF files:
Photoshop LZW, ZIP
Furthermore it cannot load Photoshop PNG.
Both LZW and ZIP TIFFs open just fine on my copy of Qimage (on Mac) too as Adobe knows how to correctly write their own file formats  ;D . Further no issue with PNGs; they open in Qimage here just fine. And of course, PSD open's fine (Photoshop uncompressed; whatever that means).
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 07, 2019, 04:00:48 pm
I also noticed that various TIFF files cannot be loaded with my test image.

Qimage cannot load the following TIFF files:

...
Photoshop uncompressed
This means uncompressed TIFF files created by Photoshop. The PNG file was created via Photoshop "Large" (=least compression).
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2019, 04:32:53 pm
This means uncompressed TIFF files created by Photoshop. The PNG file was created via Photoshop "Large" (=least compression).
No issue with either on this end, using a Mac. Probably your "Windoz" machine?
TIFF is TIFF; not uncompressed Photoshop BTW. All 3 variety of PS saved TIFFs open fine on Qimage here.
As to the other problems, again, bugs. Ask those companies why they can't produce TIFFs correctly like the other products you used that Qimage can open; it's THEIR FAULT, not Qimage.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 07, 2019, 06:30:26 pm
No issue with either on this end, using a Mac. Probably your "Windoz" machine?
Possible, I could check on a Macbook Pro once I find time and leisure. It's more likely an issue with these large files, because smaller images can be read by Qimage, even ACDSee uncompressed and ZIP (not LZW). Qimage on Windows is hampered by being 32 bit and only using 2 gb of RAM, despite being allowed up to 3 gb.

Quote
TIFF is TIFF; not uncompressed Photoshop
I already explained that "Photoshop uncompressed" meant "uncompressed TIFF created by Photoshop". Semantics. If you absolutely need to repeatedly post snarky remarks post then please at least read what you are answering to.

Quote
BTW. All 3 variety of PS saved TIFFs open fine on Qimage here.
Deflate/ZIP and LZW opened fine here, too, as explained before. Again, it's most likely a memory limitation issue.

(https://i.imgur.com/X4haNgb.png)

Quote
it's THEIR FAULT, not Qimage.
Mindcuffs...
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2019, 06:33:28 pm
Mindcuffs...
No, facts. But at least some of us here know where to place the blame for your 'problem TIFF workflow' and it's not Qimage.  ;) 
I already explained that "Photoshop uncompressed" TIFFs created by Photoshop open fine and dandy in Qimage here.
Quote
Semantics. If you absolutely need to repeatedly post snarky remarks post then please at least read what you are answering to.

As the Chinese proverb says: "The first step towards genius is calling things by their proper name."

Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 07, 2019, 07:23:05 pm
Possible, I could check on a Macbook Pro once I find time and leisure. It's more likely an issue with these large files, because smaller images can be read by Qimage, even ACDSee uncompressed and ZIP (not LZW). Qimage on Windows is hampered by being 32 bit and only using 2 gb of RAM, despite being allowed up to 3 gb.

I remember that with Qimage Ultimate there was (is?) an issue when Windows cannot make available enough unfragmented (continuous RAM) memory. This had to do with MultiThreading which can be set with Qimage Ultimate. Reducing the number of Threads could help. With the 'Ultimate' version, don't know if it carried over to the 'One' version, it is possible to show the amount of memory when holding the SHIFT button while clicking the Help menu's "Analyze Current Settings" choice.
http://ddisoftware.com/tech/qimage-ultimate/maximum-print-length/msg19561/?PHPSESSID=51l33g6eoqsllsm683d8efc623#msg19561

This does also have something to do with letting Qimage print images that have already been resized, or that come as large stitched panoramas. When Qimage does the upsizing itself, it does so on-the-fly in chunks in order to avoid memory issues with the printer driver. That then avoids most memory limit issues as well.

Qimage's original developer, Mike Chaney once explained in 2017:
Quote
Qimage is the only software that feeds data to the driver in managed chunks rather than just dumping the full original to the driver at once.  Dumping a full size image to the driver at higher settings like 1200/1440 PPI causes problems on wide format printers because anything larger than about 24x36 and you reach the 4GB limit of 32 bits and the driver crashes.
http://ddisoftware.com/tech/qimage-ultimate/v2017-115-issuescomments/msg20404/#msg20404

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 07, 2019, 07:39:41 pm
I already explained that "Photoshop uncompressed" TIFFs created by Photoshop open fine and dandy in Qimage here.
And what does that tell us? Would you please leave this thread to people who are genuinely interested in discussing and helping with the original question. Thank you.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2019, 08:09:46 pm
And what does that tell us?
That you've got problems and this doesn't affect everyone and it's silly to blame Qimage:
Quote
Qimage cannot load the following TIFF files:

ACDSee uncompressed, LZW, ZIP
FastStone ZIP
Gigapixel uncompressed, LZW, ZIP
Photoshop uncompressed
Qimage can load the following TIFF files:
TIFFs without compression and with compression properly written in the first place (like from Photoshop).
Understand?  ;)
Quote
Would you please leave this thread to people who are genuinely interested in discussing and helping with the original question.
You got lots of help, most dismissed; stick with Photoshop, it's the only product you appear to be able to successfully use.....  :P
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Mac Mahon on November 07, 2019, 08:59:24 pm
... But the ability to use differing Rendering Intents with the same profile on one or more images could be really useful.
I downloaded the demo, it does look very nice. And the price is pretty reasonable. I didn't have it on my radar for years because until recently, Windows only. But it's thankfully cross platform now. Also nice is, you can print color targets for profiling as there is a no color management option for output which is always nice to find. Plan to make some actual prints tomorrow and see how the sharpening compares to say LR. Overall, it looks like a very nice product for the money.
Hi Andrew
I'd be interested to know what you found.  I've always used Roy Harrington's Print Tool to print patches w/o color management.  But Print Tool has no output sharpening utility as far as I can find, so I've stuck with Lightroom for image printing.  However, after reading this thread, I ran a print (of the same image) through QImage, Print Tool and Lightroom and concluded that both the BP compensation and the output sharpening (at default setting) in QImage are overly aggressive.  Hardly a scientific study, but didn't see anything there that would convince me to replace LR with QImage.  A lot of experienced photographers like it so I suppose more experimentation is warranted.

(edited to clarify sharpening setting)
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 07, 2019, 09:35:14 pm
That you've got problems and this doesn't affect everyone and it's silly to blame Qimage
We are not talking about everyone's random images of arbitrary size, we are talking about my specific very large images. Qimage is not able to load them as uncompressed TIFF when created by Photoshop. There is no blame, just stating what is happening here and calling it a definitive drawback for a fluent workflow. I don't even know why we would have to discuss this in any detail, it's just one point about loading the images, it's not even processing said images to get the results that are needed. You seem quite hellbend on proving other people being less smart and qualified than you. Good for you then. Please leave this thread, you are condescending, bordering on insulting and generally of no help at all.

For everyone else who are interested in a civil discussion:

Here is a comparison that demonstrates why I prefer to use Topaz Gigapixel for upsizing the bad quality source images that then end up being pretty large files. I appended four crops out of a large map image, upsizing the original by 400% to get to the final print size, so that each of the drawn squares is 1 inch on paper. Additionally I increased its original DPI from 150 to 300 for a total of 800% upsizing. For the QImage crop I used "Print to File" with the default interpolate setting of "Fusion" and sharpen 5.

PS: For best comparison either download the images or make sure that your browser does not resize its UI/output to match your OS' display DPI settings even when viewed at 100% zoom. But even without these steps you likely get the idea, because the differences are rather obvious.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2019, 09:45:29 pm
We are not talking about everyone's random images of arbitrary size, we are talking about my specific very large images. Qimage is not able to load them as uncompressed TIFF when created by Photoshop.
Stick with Photoshop, trash Qimage (even though it works for many); problem solved.
Quote
There is no blame, just stating what is happening here and calling it a definitive drawback for a fluent workflow.
Stick with Photoshop; problem solved; fluent workflow tool indeed; that's why so many here actually use it. Daily. No issues for me, others.... with Photoshop and many of the tools suggested you can't get too work on your end.
Quote
I don't even know why we would have to discuss this in any detail, it's just one point about loading the images, it's not even processing said images to get the results that are needed.
We're discussing it because you are unable to get another recommended product to work on your end; stick with Photoshop, seems to work.
Quote
You seem quite hellbend on proving other people being less smart and qualified than you. Good for you then. Please leave this thread, you are condescending, bordering on insulting and generally of no help at all.
You seem hellbent on ignoring recommendations as not worthy of your needs when you already have a product that appears to work for you; I suggest you use it.
And no, I'm not leaving. I have more testing of Qimage to conduct and report back as was requested this hour. If you feel the suggestions provided don't work for you, stick with Photoshop, if you feel insulted, you can leave this thread.  :o
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 08, 2019, 04:39:46 am
For everyone else who are interested in a civil discussion:

Here is a comparison that demonstrates why I prefer to use Topaz Gigapixel for upsizing the bad quality source images that then end up being pretty large files. I appended four crops out of a large map image, upsizing the original by 400% to get to the final print size, so that each of the drawn squares is 1 inch on paper. Additionally I increased its original DPI from 150 to 300 for a total of 800% upsizing. For the QImage crop I used "Print to File" with the default interpolate setting of "Fusion" and sharpen 5.

Yes, the benefits of Gigapixel AI are obvious. Since it looks like the input file-size is too large for Qimage, how about using a slightly lower rescaling factor in Gigapixel, and letting Qimage handle the final bit? Qimage's Hybrid SE interpolation method can resize without creating resampling halos, and it has a halo-free sharpening option for tuning to the output medium that can be pushed pretty far to enhance edge contrast.

I know it's not an ideal workflow, but if it works, who's complaining?

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 08, 2019, 06:41:57 am
Yes, you are right. At least for the prints done on the Laserjet 150 DPI is sufficient. There are some minor artifacts in the QImage interpolations, but even nearest neighbor is close to full the 300 DPI Gigapixel output. For the Epson 3880 I will have to do test-prints once I find my spare photo-black, as we just moved house this year and the cartridge is empty.

Unfortunately this still leaves me with the main issue of image placement in Qimage. The "Full Page Editor" zoom control is too crude, although at 150 DPI a few 0.x% zoom difference don't matter. Still its crop window is too small and you always need to push that "HQ Preview" button and several retries for precise placement. Those map squares need to be exactly aligned with the print/page borders for later side-by-side placement. At least it can be used to set crop box dimensions in mm/inch, whereas the "Crop Print(s)" tool only uses pixels.

And this was where this thread began: I am looking for software that can handle this crop placement part at least close enough to how well Photoshop does it, without having to go through several extra hoops. Until then I will keep using Photoshop, as I have done for years, knowing that currently I mostly only use it for printing finished images.

Curious observation: TIFF files created by QImage Ultimage are the only ones that Windows Explorer cannot create thumbnails of. TIFF files from all other software I tested (yet) works.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 08, 2019, 06:53:43 am
Here is a list of software I already tried lately:

- Photoshop itself can get seriously bugged out when you try to manually set crop dimensions. PS is what I am using now and it offers a mostly useful print dialog anyway, so no real need for cropping.

- Gimp allows to set fixed sizes in metric measurements that can be saved as presets, both for cropping and marking. Unfortunately those presets can get confused when print size (rather resolution) is changed. You only can move the marker/crop box around, not the image inside the box, which means a bit more work. But at least it seems less bugged than Photoshop (aka usable at all).

The worse part is that Gimp seems to insist on rescaling the final print to the chosen paper size. I will try to setup a custom paper that corresponds to the virtual oversize used by my Epson 3880 when borderless printing is used. That way a DIN A4 crop should be centered within that virtual oversize. Preferably Gimp should just allow to use paper sizes defined by the print driver (see Affinity Photo below).

Photoshop's print dialog is able to read out the virtual paper size from the printer driver and then allows to set margins. Gimp just relies on the size setup via the Page Setup dialog.

- Paint.net allows to set a metric marker box at fixed size, albeit it cannot be saved as a preset. Unfortunately it uses some Windows printing dialog box that will always stretch the printed image by an uncontrollable amount, so it's out.

- Faststone Image Viewer cannot deal (well, if at all) with images of this large size.

- Affinity Photo only offers basic marker settings, but its crop tool allows to use fixed metric sizes and save those as presets. Like with Gimp you need to move the crop box around, but there seems to be no way to move the image inside the crop box.

Since the marker tool cannot be used I would have to crop -> uncrop for every part of the image I need to print. This is a setback for convenience.

A big plus of Affinity is that it is able to use the paper size defined by the printer driver instead of insisting on fixed sizes like Gimp. It also is able to print unscaled, again contrary to what I found in Gimp (feel free to correct me).

- Paint 3D cannot deal with these large image sizes.

I also checked Irfanview and ACDsee since then, but they also did not come out on top.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: mcbroomf on November 08, 2019, 06:53:51 am
One thing that Qimage doesn't like is layers.  At least sometimes.  I have some tiffs that have been OK and others that it won't recognize and I've never bothered to try and see what the difference is.  Also, even if you only have 1 layer, check to make sure the Flatten option is greyed out in PS and if not flatten the file anyway and see if Qimage likes it after savings as a tiff (uncompressed or otherwise).

You've mentioned Qimage runs out of memory sometimes.  What file sizes are we talking about?
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 08, 2019, 06:57:46 am
One thing that Qimage doesn't like is layers.  At least sometimes.  I have some tiffs that have been OK and others that it won't recognize and I've never bothered to try and see what the difference is.  Also, even if you only have 1 layer, check to make sure the Flatten option is greyed out and if not flatten the file anyway and see if Qimage likes it after savings as a tiff (uncompressed or otherwise).
Thanks for the hint, I will keep an eye on that. That being said, my source files all are only 1 layer. I lately created a 2 layer file TIFF file for memory and compatibility testing of GIMP and unfortunately GIMP only recognized 1 layer.

Quote
You've mentioned Qimage runs out of memory sometimes.  What file sizes are we talking about?
My main test-file is 1.35 gb uncompressed at 360 DPI.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 08, 2019, 07:20:12 am
On a side-note: QImage One unfortunately still is a 32-bit program on Windows.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2019, 08:50:53 am
Qimage Ultimate is Windows 7, 8, 8.1 and Windows 10 compatible (both x86 and x64)! (http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage-u/downloads.htm)
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 08, 2019, 09:27:45 am
Of course it is compatible, all 32-bit programs are for as long as Microsoft allows them to. Apple just disallowed this for MacOS and did so earlier for iOS. But that is not the issue at hand. 32-bit programs can only use a maximum of 3 gb of memory, if they know how to do it, else just 2 gb of memory. Qimage only seems to use up to 2 gb - the original 32-bit limitation - and that can be a problem with very large source images.

Anyway, like mentioned several times, this is not the main issue at hand, lack of overall usability for the specific task at hand is. Memory limits is just one out of several drawbacks in this context.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2019, 09:40:15 am
Despite your statement beginning with “unfortunately” the product being discussion is 64 bit under windows.
On a sidenote unfortunately Photoshop•• is a 32 bit application.

**Unfortunately very old versions of Photoshop.😱
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 08, 2019, 10:03:27 am
No Qimage is a 32-bit application that is compatible (runs on) 64-bit Windows. Please check your facts when you try to bully people and derail threads to off-topic trollery.

But it seems that I was wrong about the memory limit of 2 gb, as the following screenshot was made when the "Out of memory" popup appeared and it seems to use over 2 gb here. Still not enough for my specific files, but more than I gave it credit for. Anyway, 3 gb is the maximum any 32-bit application can allocate and this is not enough for a image processing needs of such large images.

Qimage One on MacOS should be a 64-bit application, else it would not run on Catalina (32-bit support was removed from MacOS). So it is surprising that the Windows version of Qimage One is still 32-bit, too.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2019, 10:18:07 am
Qimage One on MacOS should be a 64-bit application, else it would not run on Catalina (32-bit support was removed from MacOS).
OF COURSE it is and if you dust off that MacBook, assuming it's not 15 years old, you'll see this below fact too.
Quote
Anyway, 3 gb is the maximum any 32-bit application can allocate and this is not enough for a image processing needs of such large images.
Stick to Photoshop for image processing bud. 
Quote
But it seems that I was wrong about the memory limit of 2 gb,
That and what you've suggested is off topic trollery:
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 08, 2019, 10:38:53 am
Please fight your wars elsewhere. No one ever suggested that Qimage was incompatible with 64-bit Windows. It is a 32-bit application running on 64-bit Windows (in a compatibility layer of Windows), like many other applications do as well. And like any 32-bit application it can only allocate 2 or 3 gb of memory (depending on the application and Windows version).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit_computing

Even a lightweight application like Paint.net needs 2 gb memory just to open one of the 1.35 gb TIFF files, Photoshop startes at around 2.5 gb and GIMP at over 4 gb.

Qimage uses less than 30 mb for simple opening and displaying a low resolution preview of the image, but once certain processing is started it can run out of its limited memory pool, like doing a double-click on such an image to load it at full resolution for adjustments and filtering.

Oh, look, we are off-topic again. This thread still is about software suitable for conveniently printing large images in small crops.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2019, 11:19:13 am
Please fight your wars elsewhere.
The absurd is the last refuge of a pundit without an argument.
Quote
No one ever suggested that Qimage was incompatible with 64-bit Windows.

No one including me. Qimage ONE is both compatible and a 64-bit application on MacOS, that's for sure.
Quote
This thread still is about software suitable for conveniently printing large images in small crops.
On October 30th, you wrote:
Quote
I looked into *lots* of other software, but so far found nothing that offers any of the functions of Photoshop. So I am open to suggestions.
You've been provided a number of suggestions and you've dismissed them all. So it appears, Photoshop again is the software you should be using. Even if all you do is use it for printing. Understand?  ;D
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 08, 2019, 11:44:22 am
You've been provided a number of suggestions and you've dismissed them all. So it appears, Photoshop again is the software you should be using. Even if all you do is use it for printing. Understand?  ;D
Indeed the suggestions thus far unfortunately do not offer good alternatives to Photoshop for the task at hand. I do still appreciate them, though. The RIP suggestions were new to me, as in not having tested them before, so I checked them out this time. Qimage was not new to me, but I tested it again anyway. Stills lacks the features I need, but full of other great features that I personally have no use for. No need for you to get bitter about it. Suggestion acknowledged, suggestion tested, suggestion dismissed as not being the right tool for the job.

Using Photoshop is a working compromise, but it is one that costs me 120 EUR per year just for occasional print jobs. Would have been empowering to find other software that can handle the same job good enough. I will do some more tests with software like Affinity Designer / Serif and then another look around next year.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 08, 2019, 11:47:44 am
Qimage ONE is both compatible and a 64-bit application on MacOS, that's for sure.
And how does that help me on my Windows machine? Why are you so hellbend on proving your point when it's mostly irrelevant anyway? Neither do I use want to MacOS on the weaker laptop, nor is the memory limitation the only reason for me not going for Qimage, as I have made clear abundantly. Qimage One is even more limited in features and seems to lack exactly the features that make Ultimate even halfway work for the usage-case.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 08, 2019, 11:52:02 am
I just thought of a possible alternative approach.

Since Qimage has excellent 'nesting' capabilities, how about slicing your final Gigapixel upscaled image up into a few smaller chunks, and letting Qimage place them on the page without spacing between the segments? This allows to load multiple much smaller files, which Qimage then sends to the printer driver (with its own memory limitations) in managed chunks.

And one can make a template of such a layout, to fascilitate creating new jobs with similar settings.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 08, 2019, 12:14:59 pm
Thanks, Bart. That may workaround some of the memory limitations, albeit the 32-bit thing really only being an additional drawback alongside others.

With a single large image most of Qimage's processing also only is done by a single thread / CPU core. Nesting several smaller images may enable it to make more use of my 16 logical cores and thus be less sluggish, I would have to try that.

But even then the main limitation of Qimage remains that it makes creating the crops and placing them precisely (!) on paper really hard. The UI control to do the crops is too small and imprecise, the preview is too low quality until you press a special button after every single crop-edit/movement. It just does not seem comfortable to work with when you need to print dozens of sheets that are meant to align with each other at very specific points. It gets worse when I need to crop out parts of the crop, which is easily done with Photoshop's print dialog "Print Selected Area" setting (though sometimes being bugged).

Currently my workflow is:

- Load low resolution source image in Paint.net or Photoshop to measure the source size of the embedded squares.
- Calculate zoom ratio / destination size needed to upsize said squares to about 1 inch on each side (usually a bit smaller to better fit on DIN A4 paper).
- Upsize the source image via Topaz Gigapixel v4.2.2 to the destination size and printer's native DPI. Usually this ends up being more than 6x, which is why versions later than 4.2.2 cannot be used for the time being.
- Load destination image in Photoshop, start Photoshop's print dialog.
- Set printer to either Epson 3880 borderless without overprinting (= no resampling) or HP Color LaserJet 500.
- With Epson 3880 borderless, set "Print Selected Area" to match DIN A4 dimensions. This keeps the 3880 from spilling too much ink around the paper (mostly depending on paper skew).
- If a smaller crop is needed, just set a smaller print area / larger borders.
- Drag the crop via mouse-dragging around so that single rooms on the printed map fit nicely on as few sheets of paper as possible (usually 1 or 2). Try portrait and landscape for various rooms to make them fit well on table.
- Print crop.
- Drag image within crop to next part of the map, so that content on the next sheet borders exactly with content of the last sheet(s) for later side-by-side placement.
- For smaller maps I sometimes tape the sheets back together using scotch tape. I can then easily fold the map into DIN A4 envelops for storage/transport.

As you can see these are already quite a few steps to go through. Most other software I tested does not even support getting proper results. I find that somewhat astounding, because printing small - but precisely placed - crops out of a large image does not seem like such a convoluted thing to ask for. Seems like Photoshop's print dialog really is quite special in that regard.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2019, 12:42:47 pm
And how does that help me on my Windows machine? Why are you so hellbend on proving your point when it's mostly irrelevant anyway? Neither do I use want to MacOS on the weaker laptop, nor is the memory limitation the only reason for me not going for Qimage, as I have made clear abundantly. Qimage One is even more limited in features and seems to lack exactly the features that make Ultimate even halfway work for the usage-case.
Indeed, seems you're screwed. Back to Photoshop!!!
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: Timur_Born on November 08, 2019, 02:28:19 pm
Yes, very screwed and obviously feeling totally bad about it...

Albeit, I would like to read over again where you helped me find my way around Qimage's feature-set and user-interface to get the results I am looking for. Could you please post a link to said post? Thank you "bud", appreciate your help and insight on the matter at hand.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2019, 02:31:44 pm
RTFM  ;D
You are welcome.
Seems like Photoshop's print dialog really is quite special in that regard.”
Seeing the light; progress. ;)
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: digitaldog on November 14, 2019, 01:51:20 pm
Hi Andrew
I'd be interested to know what you found.  I've always used Roy Harrington's Print Tool to print patches w/o color management. 
Getting back after some testing...
First yes, I have Roy's Print Tool too, it's great for printing without color management.
As to Qimage, I did some output testing and cut to the chase, I just purchased a copy. It's really nice and the output sharpening is impressive. Qimage will also print targets as it has a no color management mode.
Title: Re: Alternative for Photoshop's Print dialog?
Post by: enduser on November 14, 2019, 07:39:25 pm
Qimage is printing software with an excellent set of guides produced by the programs maker, Asking someone here to guide you through it is a waste off time. Read and use its guides for best results.