Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Waker on July 14, 2019, 12:36:24 am

Title: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on July 14, 2019, 12:36:24 am
Seems to be a lack of a dedicated user thread for the GFX-100 for this forum. There's a variety of sources around the web with random opinions, and apparently some kind of usergroup on Facebook, which most people will not participate in anymore, including me.  So can we start a thread here?

The tech on these cameras takes a bit of getting up to speed with, so it would be great to have users compare their preferred settings, Fn option choice, Q menu setup, touchscreen on or off? Custom display settings, battery life, accessories, etc. Or please link threads, if I've missed a really useful setup/ or super informative user review.

Am happy to share my positive first impressions, though have to say most of those waxing lyrical about the IQ are clearly people who've never shot 100mp before. (hello DPreview!) Going from Phase One IQ-100 to Fujifilm GFX-100 is really not an IQ step at all, its simply what the camera can do, with its mirrorless IBIS, sensor wide PDAF with face/eye detect, AF tracking, etc.  That is where this is a unique product.

I'm keeping mine, but a bit disappointed with the size and weight of it (this is crop MF after all, and it feels as big and clumsy as a Phase XF). I was expecting the whole thing to be slightly smaller, lighter, and easier to travel with than Phase MF kit, but it doesn't seem to be much different in the end. I feel Canon or Nikon would have packaged it better. Lenses likewise are pretty good, but imho not above anything MF Tech lenses or Phase lenses have already in terms of performance, broadly speaking. The one thing the lenses do is set the bar for is price:performance. $1000-2000 in MF digital is pretty great.

Just want to get the ball rolling. Am on a learning curve with this. Happy to learn...

 
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Doug Peterson on July 14, 2019, 08:25:10 am
As a general rule I avoid posting to threads about products I don't sell (we are a Phase One dealer, and don't sell Fuji) but I wanted to make an exception to say...

Welcome to the forum!
Title: Availability
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 14, 2019, 10:42:39 am
I suspect the lack of user-driven information is because the cameras are rather thin on the ground at this point.

I posted this on my blog a couple of weeks ago:

Quote
I’ve gotten some questions about when I’ll be starting the GFX 100 review. Unfortunately, I don’t know.I expected the camera at the end of last week, at the time shipping started at the big dealers like B&H,  but no such luck. I asked my dealer to tell me what was going on, and he said they didn’t receive any GFX 100s at the time of the first shipments to dealers. and has had no communication from Fuji about when they should expect the cameras. Shortly after that, I got an email from a Fuji sales manager saying he is looking into the situation and will let me know what he finds.

I placed my order more than a year ago, so I don't think there is anyone ahead of me in line at my dealer, but that doesn't do me any good if they can't get the camera.  Early product availability is usually an issue, but I can't remember seeing a new camera roll out in trickles like this.

I have not heard from the Fuji sales manager in the intervening two weeks.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Rand47 on July 14, 2019, 12:53:10 pm
Jim,

Same here.  I’ve been sitting #1 at my dealer’s from the beginning.  Dealer, who usually receives at least a few units upon release, saw ZERO.  His Fuji rep only keeps saying “soon” . . .  Dealer is very unhappy with Fuji at the moment.

The demand apparently exceeded supply - no big surprise there these days - but I find it very odd that even “featured dealers” received no product at all upon release.  It adds up to something “odd going on” in my view.  Wonder if we’ll ever get the back-story, once the supply pipeline starts to fill.

Rand
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on July 14, 2019, 02:05:22 pm
Sorry to hear that for those waiting.

Found these settings options online. Might be useful for some:

change FINE to RAW+SUPER FINE
change UNCOMPRESSED RAW to COMPRESSED RAW
change sRGB to Adobe RGB
enable FOCUS PEAKING
set INSTANT AF SETTING to AF-C (so you have AF-S with single press and AF-C if you keep pressed)
set shutter type to MECHANICAL SHUTTER only
If you work with flash in dark studio, deactivate Preview exp/wb in manual mode
set NATURAL LIVE VIEW to ON
Activate histogram and live view highlight alert
Set Shoot without Card to OFF
set AUTO POWER OFF to 5 minutes (default is 2 minutes)
set high performance mode ON
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 14, 2019, 02:08:02 pm

set shutter type to MECHANICAL SHUTTER only


That sounds crazy for a default case. Why on earth do that?

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on July 14, 2019, 02:28:52 pm
I was a bit surprised too, but suspect there's still some rolling shutter with EF + Mechanical shutter (the default) ?
EF+mechanical is basically ES until 1/1250th, (then switches to mech) That means rolling shutter artifacts for moving objects, e.g. a car crossing through the frame.

If you are not shooting anything moving at all, then leave at default?


Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on July 14, 2019, 03:46:48 pm
As a general rule I avoid posting to threads about products I don't sell (we are a Phase One dealer, and don't sell Fuji) but I wanted to make an exception to say...

Welcome to the forum!

Thank you Doug.

Have to say that the DPreview video review of GFX-100 made me laugh. I really like those guys and their videos are well made and super helpful, but their 'wrap up' that this is ultimately a "great landscape camera" was utterly baffling. If you are looking at rocks and trees and sky, why on earth would you need PDAF tracking, face/eye detect, IBIS, etc? Surely a lightweight tech outfit like an Alpa TC with optical finder and Phase IQ back, would be better. Or for that matter an old DF body with M-Up and ES. Or an XF with it's auto focus stacking. Really odd advice!

I think they've never used a Phase back on a regular basis, let alone a hiking tech body (Cambo, Alpa), so they drew some pretty strange conclusions.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Christopher on July 14, 2019, 03:58:09 pm
Quote
I was a bit surprised too, but suspect there's still some rolling shutter with EF + Mechanical shutter (the default) ?
EF+mechanical is basically ES until 1/1250th, (then switches to mech) That means rolling shutter artifacts for moving objects, e.g. a car crossing through the frame.

If you are not shooting anything moving at all, then leave at default?

That just is not correct. I see no point at all to select MS only.... My EF is NOT ES!

When using EF+MS = NO ES will be used by the camera
When using EF+ES+MS = ES will ony be used aboth 1/40000 between 1/4000 and 1/1250 MS will be used and below that EF.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 14, 2019, 04:47:51 pm
I was a bit surprised too, but suspect there's still some rolling shutter with EF + Mechanical shutter (the default) ?
EF+mechanical is basically ES until 1/1250th, (then switches to mech) That means rolling shutter artifacts for moving objects, e.g. a car crossing through the frame.

If you are not shooting anything moving at all, then leave at default?

EFCS and mechanical shutter have the same amount of rolling shutter. They have to, since the second curtain is the same for both. Scan time in the GFX's is a bit more than 5 msec.

"EF+mechanical is basically ES until 1/1250th, (then switches to mech) That means rolling shutter artifacts for moving objects, e.g. a car crossing through the frame."


No way. EF is electronic first curtain shutter, not electronic shutter.

BTW, if it switches at 1/1250, that's a full stop faster than the GFX 50x.


Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on July 14, 2019, 05:01:33 pm
That just is not correct. I see no point at all to select MS only.... My EF is NOT ES!

When using EF+MS = NO ES will be used by the camera
When using EF+ES+MS = ES will ony be used aboth 1/40000 between 1/4000 and 1/1250 MS will be used and below that EF.

Ok. I clearly don't understand what is going on with the capture in this mode (and Fuji don't do a great job of explaining)

The camera menu says: 'EF E-FRONT CURTAIN SHUTTER' which to my understanding is an electronic trigger of capture, with no mechanical 'first curtain' (=no 'shutter shock') The sensor readout is made, with a mechanical 'back curtain' to close/end the exposure.

Am I simply misunderstanding what EF (electronic front curtain, right?) is?  It sounds like an ES 'sweep' is initiated, with a mechanical shutter curtain to close it off, but maybe that's wrong?

GFX-100 manual has the following warning:

"When using the electronic front-curtain shutter, note the following:
Faster shutter speeds are more likely to result in uneven exposure and loss of resolution in out-of-focus areas of the frame."


I found this online (not that that means it's correct!)

"Unfortunately, EFCS does have a couple of disadvantages. Because it takes time to read off the whole sensor electronically at the beginning of the exposure, EFCS can be problematic when shooting fast action – you might end up with a blurry subject in your photo, your images might get under or overexposed, you might see distortion in bokeh when using large apertures, and in some cases, you might even have part of the image cut off as a result"



.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 14, 2019, 05:11:32 pm
The camera menu says: 'EF E-FRONT CURTAIN SHUTTER' which to my understanding is an electronic trigger of capture, with no mechanical 'first curtain' (=no 'shutter shock') The sensor readout is made, with a mechanical 'back curtain' to close/end the exposure.

Am I simply misunderstanding what EF (electronic front curtain, right?) is?  It sounds like an ES 'sweep' is initiated, with a mechanical shutter curtain to close it off, but maybe that's wrong?

That's right. The electronic first curtain (which is actually a reset signal) moves at the same speed as the mechanical first curtain.

GFX-100 manual has the following warning:

"When using the electronic front-curtain shutter, note the following:
Faster shutter speeds are more likely to result in uneven exposure and loss of resolution in out-of-focus areas of the frame."



That can be a problem under some circumstances, but it's rare if you let the camera switch to MS at very high speeds. The GFX 50x cameras do this switching, and won't let you use EFCS at high shutter speeds.


I found this online (not that that means it's correct!)

"Unfortunately, EFCS does have a couple of disadvantages. Because it takes time to read off the whole sensor electronically at the beginning of the exposure, EFCS can be problematic when shooting fast action – you might end up with a blurry subject in your photo, your images might get under or overexposed, you might see distortion in bokeh when using large apertures, and in some cases, you might even have part of the image cut off as a result"

This is completely bogus. With EFCS, the sensor is reset to start the exposure, not read. What would be there to read if the exposure hadn't started yet? The rest is alarmist at best, and blown out of proportion.

Mechanical shutter on a MILC is a source of shutter shock, and is to be avoided by default. The reason for most of the shutter shock is not the first curtain release, but the winding of the shutter immediately prior to the exposure.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on July 15, 2019, 04:23:19 pm
Loving the USB-C in body charging.

My phone is USB-C, so I travel with it's fast charger. Plug the camera in and am done.
No need to open the battery compartment, no need to remember the Fuji charger. No extra hotel room socket needed. Just great!
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 16, 2019, 12:02:43 am
I have finally had the opportunity to use the GFX100 for a bit of tripod based landscape work. This comes on top of my very positive impressions using the camera handheld for generic shooting.

What I liked
- The image quality is very close to what I have been getting from by H6D-100c
- The lenses are great
- The degree of possible customization is impressive, a lot of studying to do though
- Mode showing both zoomed in view and full image view... but I couldn't find a way to zoom to 200% which makes this of little value

What could be improved/questions
- I have not been able to find a way to add the IS settings to the quick menu and had to instead associate it to a physical button. This works but with the risk of accidentally changing the setting
- the vertical release switch click has broken. Because of this the switch drifts into lock mode and becomes unusable without me noticing. Not a major issue for landscape work since I used a flexible release... but this locks control the availability of all the controls in the lower part of the camera. Very frustrating
- Access to live view, in particular access to 200% zoom is a pain, it lacks a setting to always jump to the highest degree of magnification
- I find the UI a bit confusing
- AWB is not that great, at least not quite as accurate as on the Nikons
- there are a few bugs that require the camera to be restarted such as the impossibility to focus the 250mm to infinity in some cases,...

Overall great potential, but I find the UI of Nikon's camera more intuitive and efficient in the field. This could be a matter of not being used to the Fuji yet.

More to come.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: SrMi on July 16, 2019, 01:36:45 am
I have finally had the opportunity to use the GFX100 for a bit of tripod based landscape work. This comes on top of my very positive impressions using the camera handheld for generic shooting.

What I liked
- The image quality is very close to what I have been getting from by H6D-100c
- The lenses are great
- The degree of possible customization is impressive, a lot of studying to do though
- Mode showing both zoomed in view and full image view... but I couldn't find a way to zoom to 200% which makes this of little value

What could be improved/questions
- I have not been able to find a way to add the IS settings to the quick menu and had to instead associate it to a physical button. This works but with the risk of accidentally changing the setting
- the vertical release switch click has broken. Because of this the switch drifts into lock mode and becomes unusable without me noticing. Not a major issue for landscape work since I used a flexible release... but this locks control the availability of all the controls in the lower part of the camera. Very frustrating
- Access to live view, in particular access to 200% zoom is a pain, it lacks a setting to always jump to the highest degree of magnification
- I find the UI a bit confusing
- AWB is not that great, at least not quite as accurate as on the Nikons
- there are a few bugs that require the camera to be restarted such as the impossibility to focus the 250mm to infinity in some cases,...

Overall great potential, but I find the UI of Nikon's camera more intuitive and efficient in the field. This could be a matter of not being used to the Fuji yet.

More to come.

Cheers,
Bernard

Thank you for the summary, Bernard. Looking forward to more insights.

I have used several Fuji APS-C and MF cameras and they all have the same peculiarity (in case you didn't know): in order to zoom-in fully in review, you must shoot RAW + super-fine JPG.

- Srdjan
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Christopher on July 16, 2019, 03:14:42 am
I have finally had the opportunity to use the GFX100 for a bit of tripod based landscape work. This comes on top of my very positive impressions using the camera handheld for generic shooting.

What I liked
- Mode showing both zoomed in view and full image view... but I couldn't find a way to zoom to 200% which makes this of little value

Yes it's should go further, but as far as I know it doesn't.

What could be improved/questions
- I have not been able to find a way to add the IS settings to the quick menu and had to instead associate it to a physical button. This works but with the risk of accidentally changing the setting.
I hope this will be added in firmware, as it really is missing from the quick menu...
- the vertical release switch click has broken. Because of this the switch drifts into lock mode and becomes unusable without me noticing. Not a major issue for landscape work since I used a flexible release... but this locks control the availability of all the controls in the lower part of the camera. Very frustrating You should get that repaired... It shouldn't happen. There have been a few complaints about this in the GFX group.
- Access to live view, in particular access to 200% zoom is a pain, it lacks a setting to always jump to the highest degree of magnification Here I'm not sure. When I click the rear wheel it jumps to my last zoom setting. So if I'm at full zoom it also always comes back to that. Or what doesn't work for you here?
- I find the UI a bit confusing   Yep...
- AWB is not that great, at least not quite as accurate as on the Nikons
- there are a few bugs that require the camera to be restarted such as the impossibility to focus the 250mm to infinity in some cases,...
Did you do the last lens firmware update? For the 250 there was a hotfix to 1.11

Overall great potential, but I find the UI of Nikon's camera more intuitive and efficient in the field. This could be a matter of not being used to the Fuji yet.

More to come.

Cheers,
Bernard

Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 16, 2019, 08:58:04 am
Thanks for your feedbacks Christopher and Srdjan, much appreciated.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: nicocornet on July 20, 2019, 07:08:50 am
hi all, current Sony user, quick questions on the GFX 100 :

- the file quality of 16bit can be setup as compressed and lossless, correct ? It is the same "type of 16bit" as with Phase one cameras (not available on Sony) ?

- is the histogram visible on the small OLED screens at the back based on the JPG conversion of the photo and from the RAW file ?

- how you would rate the accuracy of the virtual horizon ? I don’t find the Sony one very accurate (it becomes green even if not perfectly levelled)

- are the film simulation "burned"  in the RAW file or can it be changed in post ? should that be done in lightroom or a special fuji software ?

- have you found any raw files available to download online so that we can play around with it ? I can only find JPG...

thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: TommyWeir on July 20, 2019, 10:42:59 am
Hi Nico, if the setup is anything like the X-T3

- The histogram is based upon the JPEG simulation selected during shooting. So is the image shown on the EVF and the rear screen. Rico Pfirstinger on Fujirumors is quite good on all this - https://www.fujirumors.com/raw-for-jpeg-shooters/

- I've not found the horizon all that precise, at least there seems to be a small range that renders as level when tilting.

- The film simulations are not burned into the RAW file, RAW is RAW.  If you're hoping to get different simulation outcomes, then you have options: in-camera itself, or by various settings/presets in LR or C1, or using software from Fuji to connect your camera and the built-in raw converter to create different simulations.

- There's a bunch of RAW files available online, various X-photographers have uploaded them. Dpreview has some too -https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/8728364975/fujifilm-gfx-100-sample-gallery/7908743694
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Dan Wells on July 20, 2019, 12:06:59 pm
Has anyone printed big yet? How does it compare to the next group down (GFX 50, X1D, 50 MP CMOS backs, D850, Z7, A7r II,III (probably IV), S1r)? It should be a big enough difference to stand out in prints above a certain size - but what size? Is it noticeable in a 24x36" print, which the next group down are already very good at, or are we in only 44" printers need apply territory?
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on July 20, 2019, 01:27:44 pm
Has anyone printed big yet? How does it compare to the next group down (GFX 50, X1D, 50 MP CMOS backs, D850, Z7, A7r II,III (probably IV), S1r)? It should be a big enough difference to stand out in prints above a certain size - but what size? Is it noticeable in a 24x36" print, which the next group down are already very good at, or are we in only 44" printers need apply territory?

I've used 100mp Phase for many jobs, and would say yes we are in 44" territory.
For me the huge difference came when you enter 60" territory. That holds up very well with 100mp, as shot, un-interpolated.

You do of course get a lot of cropping latitude, but most people try to get the image right from the get-go, not heavily crop it later.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on July 20, 2019, 01:33:14 pm
- is the histogram visible on the small OLED screens at the back based on the JPG conversion of the photo and from the RAW file ?

User selectable - you can choose to have that sub-screen showing the histogram.
Many users do that (including me)

what confuses me is I am set to RAW only, so what it is basing the histogram on in that setting, is unclear.
(maybe on some theoretical jpeg histogram, if you had selected that?!)

Edit: In RAW only, it does make that histogram on a jpeg, and then discard it. As the linked article suggests, you may wish to make both RAW + jpeg set to 'fine' for a better 100% screen preview/ focus check. I may switch to that myself.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: kers on July 20, 2019, 02:54:00 pm
...
What I liked
- The image quality is very close to what I have been getting from by H6D-100c
- The lenses are great
....
Cheers,
Bernard

The lenses would be my main interest. If i can use them on a Nikon-Z that would make some great TS-lenses.
The DOF of 100MP is an area within the DOF 50MP area and that is already small...
35mm now goes to 60MP and is so much faster, smaller and lighter + so much more lens choice from cheap to expensive...
DOF is not a problem of course with infinity landscape shots... so that is the most preferred use i guess.

Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 20, 2019, 09:25:29 pm
One thing to be aware of is that C1 Pro applies as default profile on import the film simulation profile that was selected in camera.

Another additional impression, I am not impressed by the OS of the 100-200 when shooting from a moving platform such as a boat. The Nikons work way better.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 21, 2019, 12:15:46 pm

Another additional impression, I am not impressed by the OS of the 100-200 when shooting from a moving platform such as a boat. The Nikons work way better.


The 100-200 also has issues at the long end when compared with the Nikon 70-200/2.8E.

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-50s/fuji-100-200-4-on-gfx-nikon-70-200-2-8e-apo-sonnar-135-on-z7/

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-50s/fuji-100-200-4-on-gfx-nikon-70-200-2-8e-apo-sonnar-135-on-z7-revisited/

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 22, 2019, 01:34:49 am
The Nikon 70-200 f2.8 E is IMHO the best zoom lens ever designed. It’s probably better at f2.8 than the Fuji at f5.6.

This is off topic, but I am counting days until the availability of the Z mount version that can only be better still.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: SrMi on July 22, 2019, 01:46:42 am
To current owners of GFX100: Is anyone seeing a difference between 14bit and 16bit output?
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on July 22, 2019, 10:35:26 am
The Nikon 70-200 f2.8 E is IMHO the best zoom lens ever designed.

I consider the 180-400 mm f/4 to be truly amazing, whereas the 70-200E is just another step in a long march to improved IQ.

I agree that the 70-200E is excellent, but the 180-400 got me to sell my 400/2.8 and 500/4.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 24, 2019, 12:33:54 am
Interesting, thanks for the input.

I may have lucky with my copy of the 70-200 f2.8 E. It gives me an Otus like rendering of details at f2.8.

This being said my opinion on the Fuji 100-200 is improving. I’ll reserve my final judgement for a more thorough analysis in a few weeks.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 24, 2019, 04:07:48 am
Hi,

Data this far indicates that 16 bit output will not yield advantage over 14 bit output. But, I wouldn't rule out it may change with later firmware.

Anyway, if there is an advantage, it would only be visible in rare cases, where you push the shadows to extreme extent.

An interesting note:

It may be that the Phase One IQ 150 may be able to make use of 15-bit coded data. But, it was recently detected that with the latest firmware it switched to compressed 14 bit mode. It seems the issue was missed by Phase One developers and dealers, until a really observant user discovered that files were of the wrong size.

https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/66550-iq4-recording-wrong-image-format-14-bit-instead-16-bit-ex.html

Best regards
Erik

To current owners of GFX100: Is anyone seeing a difference between 14bit and 16bit output?
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 24, 2019, 01:20:08 pm
Has somebody else noticed that auto ISO uses ISO200 even when ISO100 is set as base value and there is enough light for the minimum shutter speed?

It makes auto ISO incompatible with the quest of maximum image quality the camera was designed for...

I hope Fuji will address this quickly.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: kers on July 24, 2019, 08:45:42 pm
I read on Diglloyds blog:

Play-Delete resets lens focus.  ... is that correct? Hope not.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Rand47 on July 26, 2019, 09:36:44 am
Has somebody else noticed that auto ISO uses ISO200 even when ISO100 is set as base value and there is enough light for the minimum shutter speed?

It makes auto ISO incompatible with the quest of maximum image quality the camera was designed for...

I hope Fuji will address this quickly.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

Mine does not do this.  Make sure you have the DR setting at 100.  If it is 200, 400 or Auto the camera will default to the ISO required for that function.  See page 110 in your manual.

Rand
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Rand47 on July 26, 2019, 09:41:47 am
Quote
Edit: In RAW only, it does make that histogram on a jpeg, and then discard it. As the linked article suggests, you may wish to make both RAW + jpeg set to 'fine' for a better 100% screen preview/ focus check. I may switch to that myself.

I shoot raw + Super Fine jpeg for exactly this reason.   And... the jpegs make terrific targets for comparison when processing.  Often, the jpeg w/ some VERY MINOR adjustment is equal to or better than what I can achieve.  Fuji’s jpegs are famous for a reason, I’ve found.

Rand
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 26, 2019, 11:51:52 am
Bernard,

Mine does not do this.  Make sure you have the DR setting at 100.  If it is 200, 400 or Auto the camera will default to the ISO required for that function.  See page 110 in your manual.

Spot on, thanks Rand!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Shrev94412 on July 28, 2019, 01:08:35 pm
Has anyone used continuos autofocus and tracking and the GFX100? How were your results and what were your settings? Comparison to say a NIKON D850?
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Christopher on July 28, 2019, 03:16:14 pm
I haven’t used a modern mirror less in a while, however, I would say the gfx 100 is quite good and one should not forget that we are talking about mf. Phase One and Hasselblad can’t even dream of these AF capabilities.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Rand47 on July 29, 2019, 09:15:46 am
Spot on, thanks Rand!

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

Happy to hear that was it, rather than some bug or other in the software!

Rand
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Lust4Life on August 05, 2019, 09:49:59 pm
Bernard:
"The image quality is very close to what I have been getting from by H6D-100c"

Can you quantify that is some detail?

Thanks,
Jack
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on August 06, 2019, 11:02:44 am
Congrats to Jim Kasson (often contributes here) who finally has his GFX-100, hurrah.

His blog provides many technically details insights here (https://blog.kasson.com/category/gfx-100/)

Including:
the dual gain bump is at 500iso, not 640 or 800.
the sensor is GBRG array rather than the classic RGGB
the Phase Detect AF pixels are positioned 18 pixels apart over Red positions.
very little LoCA shift, at least with the 110mm/f2 lens.

Some of his posts are of detailed technical interest, others, like recognising the 500asa gain bump, are relevant to regular use of the camera. Maybe Jim himself can emphasize any essential details, but my thanks for his research.



Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 06, 2019, 05:42:49 pm
Congrats to Jim Kasson (often contributes here) who finally has his GFX-100, hurrah.

His blog provides many technically details insights here (https://blog.kasson.com/category/gfx-100/)

Including:
the dual gain bump is at 500iso, not 640 or 800.
the sensor is GBRG array rather than the classic RGGB
the Phase Detect AF pixels are positioned 18 pixels apart over Red positions.
very little LoCA shift, at least with the 110mm/f2 lens.

Some of his posts are of detailed technical interest, others, like recognising the 500asa gain bump, are relevant to regular use of the camera. Maybe Jim himself can emphasize any essential details, but my thanks for his research.

Thanks for the shout-out. If anyone has any questions, please post them here. I may start other threads that are dedicated to specific interesting findings, but I'll be looking at this one, too. 

Working on the sharpness issue now.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: SrMi on August 06, 2019, 05:54:51 pm
Thanks for the shout-out. If anyone has any questions, please post them here. I may start other threads that are dedicated to specific interesting findings, but I'll be looking at this one, too. 

Working on the sharpness issue now.

Jim

Thank you for the articles, Jim. Looking forward to more of them.
I am wondering about 16-bit vs 14-bit raw format in GFX 100S. Is it worth it to shoot in 16-bit?

- Srdjan
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 06, 2019, 06:22:55 pm
Thank you for the articles, Jim. Looking forward to more of them.
I am wondering about 16-bit vs 14-bit raw format in GFX 100S. Is it worth it to shoot in 16-bit?

Doesn't look like it so far, but I've got more testing to do on that.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: mtakeda on August 06, 2019, 07:47:58 pm
I shoot raw + Super Fine jpeg for exactly this reason.   And... the jpegs make terrific targets for comparison when processing.  Often, the jpeg w/ some VERY MINOR adjustment is equal to or better than what I can achieve.  Fuji’s jpegs are famous for a reason, I’ve found.

Rand

I do not see any difference of the raw image and jpeg whe they are imported into Lightroom. And Fuji tech. Support told me that is the way it is. Your statement the jpeg is good comparison as a target of raw processing and I wonder what I am missing. Any advice appreciated.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on August 06, 2019, 08:18:26 pm
Thank you for the articles, Jim. Looking forward to more of them.
I am wondering about 16-bit vs 14-bit raw format in GFX 100S. Is it worth it to shoot in 16-bit?

- Srdjan

This has been covered many times for Phase backs, and I doubt there's much difference here.
The answer is: almost never.
It only really matters where you have very dark shadow detail, and only then if you are shooting at base ISO (100, in this case)
Shoot at 200asa or above, and you have lost the Dynamic Range for 16bit to make any difference.

I never bother myself. It is near impossible to see any difference on screen or in print. But if you want to and can afford the extra write time/ loss of buffer/ extra SD card storage, then it may be worth your peace of mind.  We all have different needs.


Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: eronald on August 07, 2019, 08:29:12 am
Doesn't look like it so far, but I've got more testing to do on that.

The question is whether it might make sense some time in the future when processing the files with future algorithms.

Edmund
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 07, 2019, 09:59:49 am
The question is whether it might make sense some time in the future when processing the files with future algorithms.


I think that question, as stated, is unanswerable. So far, all the analysis that I've done is on the raw planes, so it's independent of what processing comes after that, but who can say what cleverness awaits over the eons ahead. Uh, assuming the files can still be read.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on August 07, 2019, 04:15:58 pm
From DPreviews (Gold Award) review of Fuji GFX-100:

"Our testing shows there to be less than a 0.1EV difference in DR between 16-bit and 14-bit mode, because the camera's pixels aren't producing a signal that warrants the additional encoding precision. So while there is, in principle, a <0.1EV difference between 14 and 16-bit modes, this will only exist at base ISO and will only come into play in tones already impacted by the PDAF striping. In short: we could not find any reason to use 16-bit mode."

DPreview is not the greatest review site out there, but in this case, I agree. The trade off is not worth it for me.

I bought the Fuji because it was the first fast, agile, PDAF, IBIS, Focus tracking, digital MF.  To trade a lot of that away for a non existent bit depth difference, (theoretically better, but not in reality) is really not worth it  for me.  You may feel different, of course.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: SrMi on August 07, 2019, 05:14:27 pm
From DPreviews (Gold Award) review of Fuji GFX-100:

"Our testing shows there to be less than a 0.1EV difference in DR between 16-bit and 14-bit mode, because the camera's pixels aren't producing a signal that warrants the additional encoding precision. So while there is, in principle, a <0.1EV difference between 14 and 16-bit modes, this will only exist at base ISO and will only come into play in tones already impacted by the PDAF striping. In short: we could not find any reason to use 16-bit mode."

DPreview is not the greatest review site out there, but in this case, I agree. The trade off is not worth it for me.

I bought the Fuji because it was the first fast, agile, PDAF, IBIS, Focus tracking, digital MF.  To trade a lot of that away for a non existent bit depth difference, (theoretically better, but not in reality) is really not worth it  for me.  You may feel different, of course.

Bill Claff's measurements were also pointing into the same direction (16-bit not wort it).
The question is, why does GFX100 offers 16-bit mode? Is it marketing or is there something that we are missing?
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Christopher on August 07, 2019, 05:25:36 pm
And the question is why Phase One gets more DR from the same sensor technology. Is it because of PDAF?
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 07, 2019, 06:51:23 pm
And the question is why Phase One gets more DR from the same sensor technology. Is it because of PDAF?

Are you talking about Bill's PDR? If so, it's because the P1 150 MP 3.76 um sensor has a greater picture height in pixels, and thus the normalization step inherent in Bill's PDR gives it a greater benefit. Whether there's anything else going on to put a thumb on the scale, I can't say. The OSPDAF technology in the GFX 100 will reduce usable dynamic range, but it doesn't seem to greatly affect the PDR as calculated from photon transfer curves, which doesn't care about periodicity.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: 32BT on August 08, 2019, 04:46:24 am
Are you talking about Bill's PDR? If so, it's because the P1 150 MP 3.76 um sensor has a greater picture height in pixels, and thus the normalization step inherent in Bill's PDR gives it a greater benefit. Whether there's anything else going on to put a thumb on the scale, I can't say. The OSPDAF technology in the GFX 100 will reduce increase usable dynamic range, but it doesn't seem to greatly affect the PDR as calculated from photon transfer curves, which doesn't care about periodicity.

Jim

FYP
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: 32BT on August 08, 2019, 05:37:42 am
I think that question, as stated, is unanswerable. So far, all the analysis that I've done is on the raw planes, so it's independent of what processing comes after that, but who can say what cleverness awaits over the eons ahead. Uh, assuming the files can still be read.

It would be interesting to know how well the 16bit interchannel correlation is. It may not provide increased DR per channel, but it may provide increased precision. If the interchannel correlation becomes more precise, it will help even current Raw converters to produce more stable color with less noise. Not sure how to test that, though. Maybe graypatches gaussian distribution comparison?
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 08, 2019, 10:08:30 am

"Are you talking about Bill's PDR? If so, it's because the P1 150 MP 3.76 um sensor has a greater picture height in pixels, and thus the normalization step inherent in Bill's PDR gives it a greater benefit. Whether there's anything else going on to put a thumb on the scale, I can't say. The OSPDAF technology in the GFX 100 will reduce increase usable dynamic range, but it doesn't seem to greatly affect the PDR as calculated from photon transfer curves, which doesn't care about periodicity."

FYP

You didn't fix it. You made it say exactly the opposite of what I meant it to say. OSPDAF, in the GFX 100's implementation, reduces usable DR.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on August 08, 2019, 01:39:50 pm
Doesn't look like it so far, but I've got more testing to do on that.

Hi Jim,

I remember that, when I first looked at the Phase One 16 vs 14-bit ADC implementation, the engineering DR was indeed significantly better at 16-bits and as such the files were more robust when editing the Raw conversions. Haven't tested the Fuji files yet, so I don't know if the same applies to these.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: eronald on August 08, 2019, 01:44:56 pm
Hi Jim,

I remember that, when I first looked at the Phase One 16 vs 14-bit ADC implementation, the engineering DR was indeed significantly better at 16-bits and as such the files were more robust when editing the Raw conversions. Haven't tested the Fuji files yet, so I don't know if the same applies to these.

Cheers,
Bart

Fuji are a very outgoing company. I'm sure they would say whether there is extra info in the extra bits, and how they believe one can best filter out the PDAF pixels or whatever is causing that periodicity one sees in some tests.

Although I suspect the people who really have data on this are Sony.

Edmund
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 08, 2019, 01:47:41 pm
Hi Jim,

I remember that, when I first looked at the Phase One 16 vs 14-bit ADC implementation, the engineering DR was indeed significantly better at 16-bits and as such the files were more robust when editing the Raw conversions. Haven't tested the Fuji files yet, so I don't know if the same applies to these.


I've already done the EDR testing, and 16 bits doesn't help:

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/gfx-100-edr-vs-iso/

In visual tests, the OSPDAF banding drowns out any significant difference that might accrue to 16 bit precision:

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/visual-comparisons-of-fuji-gfx-100-14-and-16-bit-raw-precision/

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: eronald on August 08, 2019, 03:30:14 pm
I've already done the EDR testing, and 16 bits doesn't help:

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/gfx-100-edr-vs-iso/

In visual tests, the OSPDAF banding drowns out any significant difference that might accrue to 16 bit precision:

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/visual-comparisons-of-fuji-gfx-100-14-and-16-bit-raw-precision/

Jim

Maybe these images look the same to your eyes, not to mine. I used to be a color consultant. The two redbook crops look markedly different even on my notebook. Of course, this does not mean that the files would not be identical in ideal test circumstances, it is possible the light, or the operator's reflection, changed between test frames. Also, one should compare after using a debanding filter, as clearly this camera's files can only be optimally used with the aid of such a filter.

Going by my own experience, I would expect differences in real world usage to be most visible in neutrals and gradients. Also, in my experience the debayer algorithms have color issues in deep shadows, so a slight divergence there might cause strong chroma changes in deep shadow objects. The degree one sees this depends on the orthogonality of the CFA, and a result for Phase would not necessarily carry over to a Fuji version.

You are free as usual to consider the above as my usual incompetent rambling.
Edmund
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: SrMi on August 08, 2019, 03:38:33 pm
I've already done the EDR testing, and 16 bits doesn't help:

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/gfx-100-edr-vs-iso/

In visual tests, the OSPDAF banding drowns out any significant difference that might accrue to 16 bit precision:

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/visual-comparisons-of-fuji-gfx-100-14-and-16-bit-raw-precision/

Jim

Jim, I assume that you are using Adobe raw converters to analyze GFX100 images. Have you tried using Capture One instead (I believe there is a 30-day demo)?
Apparently, DPR uses Adobe raw converters for all its camera tests but uses Capture One for GFX100 studio scene instead.
I am not interested in switching to C1 but wonder if Adobe can improve its support of GFX100 files (currently marked as preliminary support).
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 08, 2019, 03:40:00 pm
Maybe these images look the same to your eyes, not to mine. I used to be a color consultant. The two redbook crops look markedly different even on my notebook. Of course, this does not mean that the files would not be identical in ideal test circumstances, it is possible the light, or the operator's reflection, changed between test frames. Also, one should compare after using a debanding filter, as clearly this camera's files can only be optimally used with the aid of such a filter.

Edmund

Lightroom's profiles for the two cameras yield markedly different results. The GFX 100 profile is probably not the one they'll end up with. I believe that's the source of the color differences.

As to the debanding filter, I know of now commercial debanding filter at present. Do you have a link to one? Has RT maped the PDAF rows for the GXF100?

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 08, 2019, 03:42:07 pm
Jim, I assume that you are using Adobe raw converters to analyze GFX100 images. Have you tried using Capture One instead (I believe there is a 30-day demo)?
Apparently, DPR uses Adobe raw converters for all its camera tests but uses Capture One for GFX100 studio scene instead.
I am not interested in switching to C1 but wonder if Adobe can improve its support of GFX100 files (currently marked as preliminary support).

Yes, I'm using ACR and Lr. At this point, I'm not concerning myself much with the color from the GFX 100. If the final version of the Adobe profiles don't cut the mustard, I'll consider using C1, but I don't like the workflow.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: eronald on August 08, 2019, 03:45:48 pm
Lightroom's profiles for the two cameras yield markedly different results. The GFX 100 profile is probably not the one they'll end up with. I believe that's the source of the color differences.

As to the debanding filter, I know of now commercial debanding filter at present. Do you have a link to one? Has RT maped the PDAF rows for the GXF100?

Jim
One would need to take a pic with the same camera, same light, 14 and 16 bit. Otherwise ...

I have no idea what debanding filters are out there for visual spectrum cameras.  My thought is that Sony must have done some research on this when they designed the sensor layout, and would have communicated with their customers.

Edmund
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 08, 2019, 03:52:56 pm
One would need to take a pic with the same camera, same light, 14 and 16 bit. Otherwise ...

I have no idea what debanding filters are out there for visual spectrum cameras. 

But you are telling me that I should have fixed it, right?

My thought is that Sony must have done some research on this when they designed the sensor layout, and would have communicated with their customers.

This issue has been around in one form or another for a long time: a7RIII, Z6, Z7, a9, etc, and I've never seen any communication from the camera manufacturers even acknowledging that there is a problem, much less offering a solution.

By the way, the color differences in 14- and 16-bit modes are probably also influenced by the blackpoint of the sensor, and the precision of its representation. I note that the EXIF blackpoints for 14 and 16 bit mode are not precisely a factor of four apart. The 16-bit black point isn't evenly divisible by two, let alone four.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: eronald on August 08, 2019, 07:20:44 pm
But you are telling me that I should have fixed it, right?
Jim


A  hi-fi with a mains hum - is it still hi-fi?

I wasn't saying *you* should fix it, I was saying that when doing any sort of metrics one needs to state how well one can fix it by usually implemented methods, or else the metrics are a bit of a lie.

I can see that a lot of people are very happy with the GFX-100 and it is a well received tool. However saying it has eg. 13 bits of DR is a bit lawyerly if whenever you try to use the last few bits you see a grid or stripes superimposed on your image.

Of course, in practice, the camera's buyers will employ some sort of filtering which will erase this grid, so I guess we should try to get meaningful performance  numbers with the filter applied, and that includes an indication of the degradation effected by the grid *and* the filter.


Edmund

Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 08, 2019, 11:40:04 pm

A  hi-fi with a mains hum - is it still hi-fi?

I wasn't saying *you* should fix it, I was saying that when doing any sort of metrics one needs to state how well one can fix it by usually implemented methods, or else the metrics are a bit of a lie.

I can see that a lot of people are very happy with the GFX-100 and it is a well received tool. However saying it has eg. 13 bits of DR is a bit lawyerly if whenever you try to use the last few bits you see a grid or stripes superimposed on your image.

Of course, in practice, the camera's buyers will employ some sort of filtering which will erase this grid, so I guess we should try to get meaningful performance  numbers with the filter applied, and that includes an indication of the degradation effected by the grid *and* the filter.



What are the "usually available methods"? As far as I know, there is no commercial product currently available to fix this.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: 32BT on August 09, 2019, 01:30:12 am
What are the "usually available methods"? As far as I know, there is no commercial product currently available to fix this.

SOOC jpeg?
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 09, 2019, 09:45:36 am
SOOC jpeg?

Is it your claim that there is no PDAF banding in SOOC JPEG's? Haven't tested that, but a 5-stop EV boost and a +100 shadow boost wouldn't work well in any SOOC camera JPEG that I know of.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Doug Peterson on August 09, 2019, 10:27:05 am
I'll consider using C1, but I don't like the workflow.

Jim, I humbly submit that you might change your mind on C1 workflow if presented with a wholistic soup-to-nuts deep dive on how to get the most out of C1 workflow wise. Some software is pretty easy to self-teach and end up the same place as a formal walk through, but I don't find C1 to fit in that category. We teach a C1 Masters Class (https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/capture-one-training/) and I'd be very glad to comp a seat for you in recognition of your contributions to the community over the years.

I suspect you'd come away from the class enjoying working with C1 a great bit more. But also, if you still don't like C1 after that class, you can be very confident it's not worth further effort :). Win:Win.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 09, 2019, 10:32:29 am
Jim, I humbly submit that you might change your mind on C1 workflow if presented with a wholistic soup-to-nuts deep dive on how to get the most out of C1 workflow wise. Some software is pretty easy to self-teach and end up the same place as a formal walk through, but I don't find C1 to fit in that category. We teach a C1 Masters Class (https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/capture-one-training/) and I'd be very glad to comp a seat for you in recognition of your contributions to the community over the years.

I suspect you'd come away from the class enjoying working with C1 a great bit more. But also, if you still don't like C1 after that class, you can be very confident it's not worth further effort :). Win:Win.

Thanks for the generous offer. I'll think about it. Does C1 have code to mitigate the GFX 100 PDAF banding? Can you brush in the fix?

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Doug Peterson on August 09, 2019, 10:41:06 am
Thanks for the generous offer. I'll think about it. Does C1 have code to mitigate the GFX 100 PDAF banding?

It's an entirely different math pipeline, and I found the pixel-level technical quality from my Fuji X Pro 1 and Fuji XH1 to be significantly better in C1 than LR last I tested. But I could not speak to whether any of the pipeline is specific to addressing the GFX 100 PDAF banding.

Can you brush in the fix?

There is definitely not a specific-to-this-problem tool that could be brushed in. But almost any adjustment in C1 can be applied as a local adjustment with a wide range of tools for masking and refining that mask; including tools commonly used to present noise and poor pixel quality in the best visual way, such as noise reduction, sharpening, color editor, and curves.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 09, 2019, 11:06:09 am
It's an entirely different math pipeline, and I found the pixel-level technical quality from my Fuji X Pro 1 and Fuji XH1 to be significantly better in C1 than LR last I tested. But I could not speak to whether any of the pipeline is specific to addressing the GFX 100 PDAF banding.

There is definitely not a specific-to-this-problem tool that could be brushed in. But almost any adjustment in C1 can be applied as a local adjustment with a wide range of tools for masking and refining that mask; including tools commonly used to present noise and poor pixel quality in the best visual way, such as noise reduction, sharpening, color editor, and curves.

Thanks. The issue exists in the raw files, so it needs a fix in the raw developer. The software that fixes it has to know the PDAF pixel row spacing, which in the GFX 100 is 18 pixels.

On another front, there is interest in the Raw Therapee community in coding up a fix, just as they did for the Sony and Nikon MiLCs with the problem.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: kers on August 09, 2019, 11:30:45 am
Do i understand that you have a 100mp sensor with after every 18 rows of pixels a blank row.
In effect a 95mp pixel sensor with horizontal stripes that have to be interpolated.
This and the bayer pattern need a certain form of interpolation.
Obviously this concept is a type outside the concept of DNG and may differ with each sensor type.
Enhance detail will not work and may even enhance striping.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 09, 2019, 11:42:42 am
Do i understand that you have a 100mp sensor with after every 18 rows of pixels a blank row.

That's not how it works, but the PDAF rows have fewer image-forming pixels.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: 32BT on August 09, 2019, 01:37:34 pm
Is it your claim that there is no PDAF banding in SOOC JPEG's? Haven't tested that, but a 5-stop EV boost and a +100 shadow boost wouldn't work well in any SOOC camera JPEG that I know of.

Not a claim. It had a question mark behind it. Perhaps Fuji internals does compensate for the pixels. Perhaps not. If it does, these pixels effectively become like the ones on the ancient SuperCCD, therefore my remark about increased DR, not decreased DR.

They are btw not blank pixels as far as I can tell. I can not see any problems on one of dpreview's raw files for example. What do you mean therefore with "fewer image-forming pixels"?

Regarding 16bit mode, the following still seems interesting and relevant: considering the "reduced sensitivity" of the Red and Blue channels, how does 16bit mode affect the bit precision of these channels?
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 09, 2019, 02:30:47 pm
Not a claim. It had a question mark behind it. Perhaps Fuji internals does compensate for the pixels. Perhaps not. If it does, these pixels effectively become like the ones on the ancient SuperCCD, therefore my remark about increased DR, not decreased DR.

Pretty useless if it does, since you'd be limited my the DR of the gamma-compressed, DCT-compressed JPEG files.

They are btw not blank pixels as far as I can tell. I can not see any problems on one of dpreview's raw files for example. What do you mean therefore with "fewer image-forming pixels"?

How can you tell? The pixels in the raw file are interpolated over.

The PDAF pixels are not used to form the image in the raw file. Their locations are filled by the camera using interpolation.

There is something in Fuji's fixing up of the PDAF pixels in camera that gets the mean wrong. This is not the case with Sony OSPDAF MILCs. On those cameras, the sigma changes in the PDAF rows, but, absent flare, the mean is correct.

Regarding 16bit mode, the following still seems interesting and relevant: considering the "reduced sensitivity" of the Red and Blue channels, how does 16bit mode affect the bit precision of these channels?

In 16 bit mode, those channels have 16 bit precision, just like the green channels. Read noise is independent of raw plane assignment, to a first order.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: 32BT on August 09, 2019, 03:33:38 pm
Pretty useless if it does, since you'd be limited my the DR of the gamma-compressed, DCT-compressed JPEG files.

Considering where the problem resides, I'm fairly sure 3 gamma-encoded 8bit channels trump 1 linear 16bit channel any time of the day, even with all of the heavy JPEG compression. Still, what you might try is how the camera reacts to severe shadow punishment as much as it allows before it spits out that jpeg. Another issue of course is blackframe subtraction which I believe Fuji allows with a high iso noise reduction setting some where IIRC.

How can you tell? The pixels in the raw file are interpolated over.

Because I'm looking at the CFA data, see attached. It represents the bottom of the DPR test file, generally containing the problematic pixels. Pushed the levels up quite high, but would be hard pressed to say I see significant banding of any relevant kind. Admittedly, I need to write some code to get a graybalanced representation, which can sometimes reveal more problems. I'll do that tomorrow. If you have a raw file you want to specifically look at for those pixels, I might be able to run it here.


The PDAF pixels are not used to form the image in the raw file. Their locations are filled by the camera using interpolation.

There is something in Fuji's fixing up of the PDAF pixels in camera that gets the mean wrong. This is not the case with Sony OSPDAF MILCs. On those cameras, the sigma changes in the PDAF rows, but, absent flare, the mean is correct.

Okay, I might give that a check tomorrow as well if I get around to it.

In 16 bit mode, those channels have 16 bit precision, just like the green channels. Read noise is independent of raw plane assignment, to a first order.

Yes, I understand, but apparently the 16bits of the green channel do not provide increased DR, at least as I understand from the discussion. The question though is what happens for the lower values of the R and B channels? If those values are encoded with actual more precision (not just rescaled from 14bit) then there is a significant advantage for raw converters to compute crosschannel mixes. This can reduce the noise produced by the converter (not by the camera).

Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 10, 2019, 05:13:00 pm
Another issue of course is blackframe subtraction which I believe Fuji allows with a high iso noise reduction setting some where IIRC.

The GFX 100 won't do blackframe subtraction at these shutter speeds.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: 32BT on August 11, 2019, 01:40:18 am
The GFX 100 won't do blackframe subtraction at these shutter speeds.

Jim

I understand, but what I recall from the E3 was that it was recommended to turn long-exp nr off since it did affect the end result regardless of exposure time, but that may be sooc jpeg. I unfortunately don't recall the source.

The other thing why I mention this: the original Sony A7 seems to make an exposure of some kind after first use. That is: when it has not been used for a long time, and then turning it on and shooting a couple of frames, and then turning it off, it then will make a relatively long exposure. It may be some kind of sensor cleaning method, but it could be a blackframe exposure which it keeps in long sleep mode.

Obviously, we are far away from that generation of Sony chip, but it gave food for thought: if it is indeed some kind of ad-hoc type of session blackframe, and we base all kinds of testing results on one particular session...
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: 32BT on August 11, 2019, 02:10:14 am
I separated the channels, that way any patterns will not be obscured by the bayer grid itself.

I have to admit that there seems to be banding in both of the green channels that is not visible in the red and blue. Not sure if this is related to pdaf pixels, since the banding seems to modulate over several rows. The banding is visible on even as low as +2 stops.

I'll attach 4 images on the next 4 posts: R, G1, G2, B @ +2 stops, +4, +6, and +8 stops

Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: 32BT on August 11, 2019, 02:11:22 am
+2 stops
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: 32BT on August 11, 2019, 02:12:09 am
+4 stops
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: 32BT on August 11, 2019, 02:12:53 am
+6 stops
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: 32BT on August 11, 2019, 02:14:22 am
+8 stops
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 11, 2019, 10:46:10 am
Spectra and histogram-equalized images of each raw plane from frame-averaged dark field GFX 100 exposures:

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/fuji-gfx-100-dark-field-pattern-noise/

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Paul2660 on August 11, 2019, 11:21:05 am
So far in the raw files I have been able to access and download at base ISO of 100 the effect of the banding seems very minimal at best.  Using Capture One 12.1.  2.5 stops of shadow push and you just start to see it. Simple enough to remove with many of the excellent noise removal software on the market.
Plenty of details and sharpness.


I doubt Fuji can do much with a firmware fix to remove it but they do try to improve on issues.

Paul C

Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 11, 2019, 11:30:49 am
So far in the raw files I have been able to access and download at base ISO of 100 the effect of the banding seems very minimal at best.  Using Capture One 12.1.  2.5 stops of shadow push and you just start to see it. Simple enough to remove with many of the excellent noise removal software on the market.
Plenty of details and sharpness.


I doubt Fuji can do much with a firmware fix to remove it but they do try to improve on issues.

Paul C

You can argue that you don't need all the DR of the GFX 50S and 50R, but this banding means that the effective DR of the GFX 100 is less than those cameras.

I think the banding is the result of a firmware modification of the raw data, as in the Nikon Z7. You don't see this kind of banding in the Sony a7RIII. You do see PDAF striping occasionally in the presence of lens flare, but that's another issue.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Paul2660 on August 11, 2019, 11:39:50 am
Hi Jim

Not trying to argue, I appreciate your findings as always.  I just don't it with a 2.5 push of shadows in any of the shots I have looked at raw, and used C1.  Can't speak to LR/ACR.  The Z7 banding for me is also not visable in any of the shots I have pushed 2.5 to even 3 stops.  The only issue I have seen with the Z7 (sorry off topic I know) is a slight red tint to highlights, but even that is rare.  I do see very clean shadow push, possibly cleaner than the Phase One 3100 at base of 50 pushing that much 2.5 stops. 

The raw files I have used are the ones from dpreview, from their various galleries.  I have looked at most of the images that have deep shadows. 

As always good to be aware of this, and hopefully Fuji can address it with a firmware update in the future.

Paul C
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Rand47 on August 11, 2019, 11:43:17 am
I hope my question doesn’t sound snarky or anti-technology.  I appreciate and stand in awe of the knowledge and expertise demonstrated by this discussion of the PDAF banding “issue” (and the other analyses I see on Jim’s web site).  My question is, what is the actual impact on an optimally exposed image file?  I’m “just a photographer” who is also interested in making fine prints with the current state of the art printers and papers, combined with a competent color managed workflow.

I own a GFX 100 and so far have only been very surprised with how good it is.  How much “better” it is than my GFX 50s, in a lot of respects, based on what I see in prints on paper.  And, perhaps most of all how game changing it is in terms of versatility of use - especially in being able to shoot more “off hand” hand held - bringing stunning image quality (in prints) to a format that one doesn’t typically consider as portable and facilitating a more extemporaneous shooting style / experience.

Jim, I can sense that you’re in an “analyzing the machine” phase of your experience with the GFX 100, but do you have a more “lay person’s view” of it as an artist’s tool yet?  Say, as compared to the GFX 50s or one of the FF cameras you own and use?  I love the work you’ve done and posted on DP’s medium format page, by the way.

Rand
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: SrMi on August 11, 2019, 11:47:50 am
You can argue that you don't need all the DR of the GFX 50S and 50R, but this banding means that the effective DR of the GFX 100 is less than those cameras.

I think the banding is the result of a firmware modification of the raw data, as in the Nikon Z7. You don't see this kind of banding in the Sony a7RIII. You do see PDAF striping occasionally in the presence of lens flare, but that's another issue.

Jim

Chamber Lloyds reports banding issues in certain shades of blue (e.g., sky), both with Sony A9 and GFX 100. Have you been able to confirm that issue?

Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: SrMi on August 11, 2019, 12:03:38 pm
I hope my question doesn’t sound snarky or anti-technology.  I appreciate and stand in awe of the knowledge and expertise demonstrated by this discussion of the PDAF banding “issue” (and the other analyses I see on Jim’s web site).  My question is, what is the actual impact on an optimally exposed image file?  I’m “just a photographer” who is also interested in making fine prints with the current state of the art printers and papers, combined with a competent color managed workflow.

I own a GFX 100 and so far have only been very surprised with how good it is.  How much “better” it is than my GFX 50s, in a lot of respects, based on what I see in prints on paper.  And, perhaps most of all how game changing it is in terms of versatility of use - especially in being able to shoot more “off hand” hand held - bringing stunning image quality (in prints) to a format that one doesn’t typically consider as portable and facilitating a more extemporaneous shooting style / experience.

Jim, I can sense that you’re in an “analyzing the machine” phase of your experience with the GFX 100, but do you have a more “lay person’s view” of it as an artist’s tool yet?  Say, as compared to the GFX 50s or one of the FF cameras you own and use?  I love the work you’ve done and posted on DP’s medium format page, by the way.

Rand

After the Z 7 banding discussions on DPR, it must seem like a Déjà vu to Jim ;-).

I think Jim summarizes it best with the last sentence in one of his posts:
"How will this affect real-world photography? It's too soon to tell, but now we know what to look for."

I use Z 7 often, a camera that has been shown to have banding in some instances. I have yet to encounter any issues in my images, but I keep an eye out for banding in certain situations.


Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 11, 2019, 03:06:12 pm
Hi Jim

Not trying to argue, I appreciate your findings as always.  I just don't it with a 2.5 push of shadows in any of the shots I have looked at raw, and used C1.  Can't speak to LR/ACR.  The Z7 banding for me is also not visable in any of the shots I have pushed 2.5 to even 3 stops.  The only issue I have seen with the Z7 (sorry off topic I know) is a slight red tint to highlights, but even that is rare.  I do see very clean shadow push, possibly cleaner than the Phase One 3100 at base of 50 pushing that much 2.5 stops. 

The raw files I have used are the ones from dpreview, from their various galleries.  I have looked at most of the images that have deep shadows. 

As always good to be aware of this, and hopefully Fuji can address it with a firmware update in the future.

Paul C

Then you don't need a lot of DR. This particular foible of the GFX 100 is a non-issue for you.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Paul2660 on August 11, 2019, 03:32:51 pm
Jim, How do you define DR?

For me pushing shadows 2.5 to 3 stops from a single ISO or pulling down highlights all from a single file is use of DR. And the ability to do this means I want a lot of DR.  I assume DR means Dynamic Range?

How much more DR are you looking for from a single file as for me 2.5 to 3 stops is needing a lot DR.  That always has been my goal since the D800e.

I may have a different definition or understanding or need.

Paul C
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 11, 2019, 04:12:42 pm
I hope my question doesn’t sound snarky or anti-technology.  I appreciate and stand in awe of the knowledge and expertise demonstrated by this discussion of the PDAF banding “issue” (and the other analyses I see on Jim’s web site).  My question is, what is the actual impact on an optimally exposed image file?  I’m “just a photographer” who is also interested in making fine prints with the current state of the art printers and papers, combined with a competent color managed workflow.

I own a GFX 100 and so far have only been very surprised with how good it is.  How much “better” it is than my GFX 50s, in a lot of respects, based on what I see in prints on paper.  And, perhaps most of all how game changing it is in terms of versatility of use - especially in being able to shoot more “off hand” hand held - bringing stunning image quality (in prints) to a format that one doesn’t typically consider as portable and facilitating a more extemporaneous shooting style / experience.

Jim, I can sense that you’re in an “analyzing the machine” phase of your experience with the GFX 100, but do you have a more “lay person’s view” of it as an artist’s tool yet?  Say, as compared to the GFX 50s or one of the FF cameras you own and use?  I love the work you’ve done and posted on DP’s medium format page, by the way.

Rand

Thanks for the kind words. My intention is to use the GFX 100 mostly in the studio, and mostly for closeup work: say from 1:10 to 2:1 (those ratios imply a wider FOV on a 33x44 mm sensor than a FF one). I see no reason why it should not be excellent for that use.  It will replace the GFX 50S in that application, and I will probably eventually sell the GFX 50S, since the UI on the GFX 100 is sufficiently different that going back and forth is difficult for me.

WRT the technical tests I do, my intention when testing any new camera is to detect, quantify, explain any significant departures from canonical behavior, and to provide work-arounds for any issues that I find that have such workarounds. Case in point: I have already supplied RAW GFX 100 files to a Raw Therapee developer, and have hopes that there will be a fix soon in RT. No camera is perfect. I want to provide sufficient information to prospective users so that they can make informed purchase decisions, and to current users so they can get the most out of their cameras.

Jim

Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 11, 2019, 04:15:17 pm
Chamber Lloyds reports banding issues in certain shades of blue (e.g., sky), both with Sony A9 and GFX 100. Have you been able to confirm that issue?

I have seen light-field anolmolies in the GFX 100 that are likely the same thing:

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/fuji-gfx-100-light-field-pattern-noise/

I also observed similar effects with the a9, but give that camera's likely use spectrum, I think they are probably unimportant.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 11, 2019, 04:18:26 pm
Jim, How do you define DR?

For me pushing shadows 2.5 to 3 stops from a single ISO or pulling down highlights all from a single file is use of DR. And the ability to do this means I want a lot of DR.  I assume DR means Dynamic Range?

How much more DR are you looking for from a single file as for me 2.5 to 3 stops is needing a lot DR.  That always has been my goal since the D800e.

I may have a different definition or understanding or need.


Unnormalized dynamic range is full scale over the mean value that provides the lowest acceptable image quality.

For many people, and for most uses, at base ISO, any current FF or larger camera has plenty of DR.

In the studio with artificial lighting, even a Hassy H2D-39 has plenty of DR.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 11, 2019, 04:20:29 pm
After the Z 7 banding discussions on DPR, it must seem like a Déjà vu to Jim ;-)

Yep. Having done all the work with the Z7 meant that most of the programs to analyze this issue were all written. All I have to do is remember how to use them -- gotta work on commenting more.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 12, 2019, 04:56:18 am
Jim, How do you define DR?

For me pushing shadows 2.5 to 3 stops from a single ISO or pulling down highlights all from a single file is use of DR. And the ability to do this means I want a lot of DR.  I assume DR means Dynamic Range?

How much more DR are you looking for from a single file as for me 2.5 to 3 stops is needing a lot DR.  That always has been my goal since the D800e.

I may have a different definition or understanding or need.

Paul C

Hi Paul,

I would say that the definition of DR is a ratio of signal strength at saturation over some acceptable noise ratio. Engineering DR uses SNR=1.

What I think Jim says that the banding is caused by the camera firmware compensating for the reduced sensitivity of the DR pixels. On that, I think that Jim is right. My understanding is that Jim wants his raw images raw and feels that almost any post processing is better done in the computer than in camera firmware.

The reason you probably don't see that banding is that your darkest parts of the image are kept near black, where they belong.

Any way, darks in images will always be noisy. Good sensors can keep the noise coming from the sensor low, but they can do nothing about shot noise.

My take on the issue is that Fuji should allow the user to select the level of in camera signal processing. Jim's earlier research on Nikon indicates that the cure is worse than the disease and he finds that Fujifilm has done something similar.

If it doesn't affect your shooting, just be happy!

I wouldn't say that you don't need DR, BTW, just that it may be that you employ DR in a way that the issue Jim is discussing is not visible.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: eronald on August 12, 2019, 09:23:48 pm
Yep. Having done all the work with the Z7 meant that most of the programs to analyze this issue were all written. All I have to do is remember how to use them -- gotta work on commenting more.

Jim

Maybe you need some new programs: given the effects of on-sensor focus grids, we need a new definition of photographic DR in the presence of such background pattern grids.

It would seem that the GFX100 is effectively something like a 12 bit camera, not bad but still images eg @6400 ISO are going to be visibly impacted eg. in the skies, and photographers workflow needs changing. Sshooting at dusk etc means strongly unbalanced channels and DR becomes an issue if no filterbis used.

Edmund





Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 12, 2019, 10:52:31 pm
Maybe you need some new programs: given the effects of on-sensor focus grids, we need a new definition of photographic DR in the presence of such background pattern grids.

It would seem that the GFX100 is effectively something like a 12 bit camera, not bad but still images eg @6400 ISO are going to be visibly impacted eg. in the skies, and photographers workflow needs changing. Sshooting at dusk etc means strongly unbalanced channels and DR becomes an issue if no filterbis used.


Agree about another definition of DR to add to the ones we already have. Based on the theory that low frequency noise is more objectionable than HF noise, I once tried to derive a metric based upon the frequency content, but couldn't even get close to turning it into a scalar. Based on the theory that periodic noise is more objectionable than wide-spectrum noise, I have long been publishing spectra of image pattern noise. Unfortunately, that's not a scalar either.

I have hopes for a RT fix soon.

Jim
Title: An article by Jim Kasson, settings things in some perpective...
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 13, 2019, 01:13:25 am
Hi,

This article by Jim Kasson is worthwhile reading... (https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikon-z7-pdaf-banding-faqs/)

Best regards
Erik
Title: Banding in DPR ISO invarience Studio shot
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 13, 2019, 01:47:20 am
Hi,

I downloaded the -6EV image from DPR ISO Invarience studio shot (https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr134_0=fujifilm_gfx100&attr134_1=fujifilm_gfx100&attr134_2=fujifilm_gfx100&attr134_3=fujifilm_gfx100&attr136_0=7&attr136_1=4&attr136_2=1&attr136_3=2&normalization=full&widget=699&x=0.10715986&y=0.493746579)

Banding is clearly visible when developed in LR or C1
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/TMP/Paul4.JPG)
Full size (http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/TMP/Paul4.JPG)
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/TMP/Paul5.JPG)
Full size (http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/TMP/Paul5.JPG)

If it is relevant, it is up to the reader to decide.

My understanding is the the PDAF on the sensor can cause striping under rare conditions. This was first observed on the Sony A9, I think. Nikon and Fuji seems to use camera firmware to mitigate the effect, causing this banding.

I think that feature should be user selectable. Why?


Hopefully, Fujifilm keeps an eye on Jim's blog and releases a firmware update making striping mitigation user selectable.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: An article by Jim Kasson, settings things in some perpective...
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 13, 2019, 09:59:32 am
This article by Jim Kasson is worthwhile reading... (https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikon-z7-pdaf-banding-faqs/)

There are certainly similarities between the PDAF banding in the GFX 100 and that in the Z7, but there are differences. In the Z7, it appears to be triggered when the camera senses that there might otherwise be PDAF striping. Otherwise it leaves the file alone. The reason the cure is worse than the disease in the Z7 is that the camera is overly quick to see the possibility of striping. With the GFX 100, it looks like the camera applies the "fix" all the time, which is even worse.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on August 13, 2019, 11:00:47 am
Jim, I humbly submit that you might change your mind on C1 workflow if presented with a wholistic soup-to-nuts deep dive on how to get the most out of C1 workflow wise. Some software is pretty easy to self-teach and end up the same place as a formal walk through, but I don't find C1 to fit in that category. We teach a C1 Masters Class (https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/capture-one-training/) and I'd be very glad to comp a seat for you in recognition of your contributions to the community over the years.

I suspect you'd come away from the class enjoying working with C1 a great bit more. But also, if you still don't like C1 after that class, you can be very confident it's not worth further effort :). Win:Win.

Have to admit I'm also a bit shocked that anyone is using Lightroom over C1 for serious MF work. The profiles in Capture One are far better than Lightroom, and surely color quality is one of the principle reasons people use MF digital.

Whatever, no wish to offend, maybe it's my history as an (now ex) Phase user, I grew familiar with that RAW converter, and if you came to this point through on another path, (starting with CaNikon FF cameras on Lightroom, or whatever) then your familiarity is undoubtedly different.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on August 13, 2019, 11:16:52 am
Have to admit I'm also a bit shocked that anyone is using Lightroom over C1 for serious MF work. The profiles in Capture One are far better than Lightroom, and surely color quality is one of the principle reasons people use MF digital.

Whatever, no wish to offend, maybe it's my history as an (now ex) Phase user, I grew familiar with that RAW converter, and if you came to this point through on another path, (starting with CaNikon FF cameras on Lightroom, or whatever) then your familiarity is undoubtedly different.

I think that Jim is more used to Lightroom than Capture One, but I would also not be surprised if PhaseOne and Fujifilm worked closely together to produce excellent Raw conversions. So it might be something worth to explore in the quest for ultimate results.

However, I think that many of Jim's analyses are based on Raw, undemosaiced, data. In that respect, I find the DR of the GFX-100 a bit underwhelming, but that doesn't mean that it will produce less than stunning images if exposed and focused correctly and converted by either Raw converter.

It would be interesting to see some comparisons between Lightroom and Capture One conversions though.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on August 13, 2019, 11:22:32 am
Love Jim's comment on the slow ES scan speed he finds in the GFX here:
https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/how-fast-is-the-gfx-100-electronic-shutter/

1/6th of a second in 14 bit and double that- 1/3 sec in 16bit!
as Jim clearly says, using ES for anything but fixed tripod work on static subjects:
"You have been warned"
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 13, 2019, 12:39:04 pm
The profiles in Capture One are far better than Lightroom, and surely color quality is one of the principle reasons people use MF digital.


My tests indicate that the C1 profiles are somewhat less accurate than Adobe Standard. I think that Adobe introduced Adobe Color and made it the Lr default to try to get closer to the C1 default profile, kind of like New Coke vs Pepsi. They sacrificed accuracy when making that change.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 13, 2019, 12:41:58 pm
Love Jim's comment on the slow ES scan speed he finds in the GFX here:
https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/how-fast-is-the-gfx-100-electronic-shutter/

1/6th of a second in 14 bit and double that- 1/3 sec in 16bit!
as Jim clearly says, using ES for anything but fixed tripod work on static subjects:
"You have been warned"

The quote is right, but the context isn't. I did not say anything warning people about hand holding with ES. I do it a fair amount, mostly successfully.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 13, 2019, 12:44:08 pm
I think that Jim is more used to Lightroom than Capture One, but I would also not be surprised if PhaseOne and Fujifilm worked closely together to produce excellent Raw conversions. So it might be something worth to explore in the quest for ultimate results.

We'll have to wait a bit on that. Adobe says that current Lr support is preliminary, and, to some extent, it shows.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Doug Peterson on August 13, 2019, 01:16:14 pm
My tests indicate that the C1 profiles are somewhat less accurate than Adobe Standard.

C1's general-purpose profiles are not intended for absolute color accuracy. They are designed for overall balance between accuracy, pleasing color, and robust response under different illuminants. Having a lot of experience with accurate color reproduction, I can say confidently that most users would not enjoy if they got truly accurate color. Most photographers, if you ask them, will say they want an "accurate/neutral starting point" so they can add their own salt and pepper, but only because they've never seen a truly scientifically accurate color profile applied to a general-purpose scene.

P1 does produce some extraordinarily high-quality profiles designed exclusively with accuracy in mind (for art reproduction and other cultural heritage and scientific use) that are part of the Capture One Cultural Heritage Edition (https://dtculturalheritage.com/capture-one-ch/). In such applications, aesthetics and human preference are irrelevant; it's the mission of the process to exactly reproduce the physical object. You can, of course, also make and use your own profiles either by starting with the canned profile and modifying it using Color Editor and then resaving it (as an ICC profile) or by third-party software. Our Reflective Digitization Guide (https://dtculturalheritage.com/product-category/digitization-guides/) covers doing so with BasIIColor (our suggestion) or there is also a version of X-Rite software now that can do this for C1. But as you know making your own profiles is a process fraught with false-positives and prone to create fragile profiles that test well, but do less well in the real world.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on August 13, 2019, 02:26:24 pm
The quote is right, but the context isn't. I did not say anything warning people about hand holding with ES. I do it a fair amount, mostly successfully.

Jim

Me too Jim, I hand hold ES on many occasions. It's useful for the silent shutter if nothing else.

I meant more to alert people that rolling shutter can be a real issue with ES, and if you are trying to freeze a moving object (walking person, car, train, etc) in fore or mid-ground of your image, then you need to use EF, not ES.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: SrMi on August 13, 2019, 02:27:38 pm
My tests indicate that the C1 profiles are somewhat less accurate than Adobe Standard. I think that Adobe introduced Adobe Color and made it the Lr default to try to get closer to the C1 default profile, kind of like New Coke vs Pepsi. They sacrificed accuracy when making that change.

Jim

Both Adobe Color and increase of default sharpness from 25 to 40 are seen as Adobe's answer to C1. IMO, this is an example of the negative effect of online media.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: SrMi on August 13, 2019, 02:31:35 pm
The quote is right, but the context isn't. I did not say anything warning people about hand holding with ES. I do it a fair amount, mostly successfully.

Jim

I think this is based on the misconception that a sensor readout of 1/6 sec is the same as shooting with the shutter speed of 1/6 sec. Which is not (and you have never claimed that it is).

Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 13, 2019, 03:00:44 pm
Both Adobe Color and increase of default sharpness from 25 to 40 are seen as Adobe's answer to C1. IMO, this is an example of the negative effect of online media.

I mostly agree. Here's a plot for the Z7 showing the differences between Adobe Color and Adobe Standard with a CC24 target:

(https://blog.kasson.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Z7AdobeStdSun-vs-Z7-adobe-color-uv.png)

You could argue that the increased chroma of Adobe Color is a better starting point. I'm not buying that argument in general, but it's not off-the-wall.

But it's hard for me to accept that a sharpening strength of +40 is good for anybody. Oversharpening is already rampant, and making oversharpening the default in Lr is going to (mis)train a whole new cohort of photographers to turn the sharpening up to stun.

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/power-tools-are-dangerous/

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 13, 2019, 06:28:03 pm
C1's general-purpose profiles are not intended for absolute color accuracy. They are designed for overall balance between accuracy, pleasing color, and robust response under different illuminants. Having a lot of experience with accurate color reproduction, I can say confidently that most users would not enjoy if they got truly accurate color. Most photographers, if you ask them, will say they want an "accurate/neutral starting point" so they can add their own salt and pepper, but only because they've never seen a truly scientifically accurate color profile applied to a general-purpose scene.

P1 does produce some extraordinarily high-quality profiles designed exclusively with accuracy in mind (for art reproduction and other cultural heritage and scientific use) that are part of the Capture One Cultural Heritage Edition (https://dtculturalheritage.com/capture-one-ch/). In such applications, aesthetics and human preference are irrelevant; it's the mission of the process to exactly reproduce the physical object. You can, of course, also make and use your own profiles either by starting with the canned profile and modifying it using Color Editor and then resaving it (as an ICC profile) or by third-party software. Our Reflective Digitization Guide (https://dtculturalheritage.com/product-category/digitization-guides/) covers doing so with BasIIColor (our suggestion) or there is also a version of X-Rite software now that can do this for C1. But as you know making your own profiles is a process fraught with false-positives and prone to create fragile profiles that test well, but do less well in the real world.

Doug, I can't quarrel with anything you said there. For serious work, I do like to start with a fairly accurate image (with the cameras available to us, near-perfect accuracy is beyond our reach no matter how good the profiles), but I realize that I'm in the minority.

And you are entirely correct to point out the importance of the illuminant in profile making -- and photography in general.

But I brought up accuracy in the context of the assertion that C1's profiles were "far* better" than Lr's. Once you say that you're not trying to produce accurate colors, or even accurately viewing-conditions-adapted colors, but are trying to make pleasing colors, the definition of whether you succeeded will depend on the viewer. So saying without defining the test methodology that one raw developer's profiles are better or worse than another's is meaningless.

It seems like there is a race to ever more chromatic default profiles, and I think that's a step in the wrong direction. Most of the amatuer images that I see in photo fora are way too punchy for me, and it seems to get worse with each passing year.

Jim

*Italics from the original poster of the phrase.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 13, 2019, 07:04:48 pm
Hi,

It may make some sense to get color that is pretty accurate for the illuminant and apply a 'look' to that color.

Best regards
Erik


Doug, I can't quarrel with anything you said there. For serious work, I do like to start with a fairly accurate image (with the cameras available to us, near-perfect accuracy is beyond our reach no matter how good the profiles), but I realize that I'm in the minority.

And you are entirely correct to point out the importance of the illuminant in profile making -- and photography in general.

But I brought up accuracy in the context of the assertion that C1's profiles were "far* better" than Lr's. Once you say that you're not trying to produce accurate colors, or even accurately viewing-conditions-adapted colors, but are trying to make pleasing colors, the definition of whether you succeeded will depend on the viewer. So saying without defining the test methodology that one raw developer's profiles are better or worse than another's is meaningless.

It seems like there is a race to ever more chromatic default profiles, and I think that's a step in the wrong direction. Most of the amatuer images that I see in photo fora are way too punchy for me, and it seems to get worse with each passing year.

Jim

*Italics from the original poster of the phrase.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jack Hogan on August 14, 2019, 05:38:58 am
Most photographers, if you ask them, will say they want an "accurate/neutral starting point" so they can add their own salt and pepper, but only because they've never seen a truly scientifically accurate color profile applied to a general-purpose scene.

Generally agreed, Doug.  One theory of why that might be is that the accurate starting point is often shown before the application of a Tone Mapping Operator.  TMOs are needed to squeeze a larger captured DR into the typically substantially smaller contrast ratio that can be displayed.  Unless viewed in true 16000+:1 contrast ratio conditions, images viewed before TMO will look bland, veiled and uninspiring.  Though after TMO they will necessarily be heavily influenced by perceptual effects, thus no longer be quite accurate.

Perhaps the solution is to give folks an 'accurate' starting point and a choice of TMOs, one of which chosen as a generic industry standard (lots of papers on the subject, though the state-of-the-art seems to be in continuous flux).  This may not be easy to do with current raw-conversion architectures.  As demonstrated by Adobe apparently retiring the naive 'tone' curve TMO last year and replacing it with what appears to be Torger's reverse engineered 'look' approach.  One major change in their recent Profile redo.

Jack
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: jinsonkv on August 15, 2019, 08:15:34 am
Here is a pic taken using my Fujifilm GFX-100

Pic details Fujifilm GFX100 at 1/125 sec, ƒ11, ISO 100 with Fujinon GF 63mm ƒ / 2.8 R WR

I made a detailed review of this device here. https://unknownguides.com/fujifilm-gfx-100-review/ (https://unknownguides.com/fujifilm-gfx-100-review/)
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Rand47 on August 15, 2019, 08:30:28 am
Quote
It seems like there is a race to ever more chromatic default profiles, and I think that's a step in the wrong direction. Most of the amatuer images that I see in photo fora are way too punchy for me, and it seems to get worse with each passing year.

I sometimes lead image review sessions for a local camera club.  One of my oft repeated comments is:  “Step away from the saturation slider!”  And, as Charlie Cramer says, once you see lots of saturation and contrast in an image file, it is impossible to “un-see-it.” 

Rand
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 15, 2019, 09:53:28 am
I sometimes lead image review sessions for a local camera club.  One of my oft repeated comments is:  “Step away from the saturation slider!”  And, as Charlie Cramer says, once you see lots of saturation and contrast in an image file, it is impossible to “un-see-it.” 

Rand

'Twas ever thus. I remember John Sexton telling me in the early 80's to sneak up on the right contrast grade from below, because once you've seen a print that's too contrasty, the print that's right will look flat.

Jim
Title: Testing the OOC JPEGs for PDAF banding
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 15, 2019, 02:23:06 pm
Not a claim. It had a question mark behind it. Perhaps Fuji internals does compensate for the pixels. Perhaps not. If it does, these pixels effectively become like the ones on the ancient SuperCCD, therefore my remark about increased DR, not decreased DR.


I got around to testing your supposition:

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/pdaf-banding-in-gfx-100-in-camera-jpegs/

There is still banding, but not in the deepest shadows, since the in-camera JPEG crushes the blacks enough to make it virtually invisible there.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on August 15, 2019, 07:52:40 pm
For RAW - are you using 'Uncompressed' or 'Compressed'?

I'm a bit surprised at the size of uncompressed .RAF files - are 200Mb each in 14bit,
Phase 100mb files from IQ3 were around 110-120Mb each.

I was using uncompressed but the write time and disk space used means even a 128Gb card fills up very quickly. Going to try compressed and providing it's truly lossless (right?) that will hopefully be ok.

Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 15, 2019, 09:07:48 pm
For RAW - are you using 'Uncompressed' or 'Compressed'?

Lossless compressed, unless testing some oddball thing. Almost always 14-bit precision.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Lust4Life on August 31, 2019, 07:30:04 am
Is anyone generating a TRUE 16 bit in RAW at this time?
Not a 14 up-ressed to 16, but right off the array at 16 bit.
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Jim Kasson on August 31, 2019, 10:23:49 am
Is anyone generating a TRUE 16 bit in RAW at this time?
Not a 14 up-ressed to 16, but right off the array at 16 bit.

IQ4 150 MP and GFX 100 appear to be that precision, if set to the appropriate modes.

I'm pretty sure that my old H2D-39 was 16 bit precision, but the last four bits were read noise.

Jim
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: Waker on September 03, 2019, 12:00:50 pm
Can someone advise me the best face/body tracking AF setup on GFX-100, please?

I'm a little confused when choosing the focus area mode, it seems you are supposed to set 'Wide/Tracking', as the word 'Tracking' is in there, right?

This implies you cannot use 'Single Point' or 'Zone', to select the correct focus starting point/person and then have it track? The problem with wide/tracking is you are leaving it to automation to select your subject...

I have 'Face On/Eye Auto' selected, which I presume is right.

Thanks

Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: drevil on September 06, 2019, 01:46:54 am
anybody else experiencing that IBIS isnt working with adapted lenses?
Title: Re: Fujifilm GFX-100 actual *user* experience, tips, setup, please?
Post by: chrismuc on September 06, 2019, 04:56:54 am
with dump adapters (w/o electronics) it actually works