Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Alan Klein on July 12, 2019, 03:37:47 pm
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I thought I'd start a separate political topic that doesn;t seem to fit ongoing ones.
So I'll start off with this issue of how Russian missile sales will affect NATO relationships with Turkey? What will happen to NATO? Do European NATO countries care?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/world/europe/turkey-russia-missiles.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/world/europe/turkey-russia-missiles.html)
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I think, all of us are wondering about the next move.
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What should NATO do?
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The question is whose missiles they anticipate shooting down with their new missile defense system.
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The question is whose missiles they anticipate shooting down with their new missile defense system.
Who's would they shoot down with the American Patriot system they wanted to buy? Who do European NATO countries expect to shoot down with their missile defense systems?
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A better system at half the price apparently.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-starts-taking-delivery-of-russian-air-defense-missile-system-risking-u-s-sanctions-and-testing-its-position-in-nato-11562920372
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Did something happen while I wasn't watching? Do missile defence systems work now?
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What should NATO do?
Nuke them all, g*ddamnit! ::)
I hope we will get out under the US suppression and we soon can vote Poetin as president.
If not, Europe will be fully Islamized in a few generations time, thanks to the, by US supported, Saudis.
That’s a demographic fact.
😳😳🤫
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Nuke them all, g*ddamnit! ::)
I hope we will get out under the US suppression and we soon can vote Poetin as president.
If not, Europe will be fully Islamized in a few generations time. That’s a demographic fact.
I agree about the religious complexion of Europe, but why do you think Mr P has any answers? He has enough of them in his own backyard, and they fight just like the rest. Guns can't silence religion; never have. And when the religion owns the guns...
Maybe the NRA has foresight (groan) too, after all.
Rob
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I agree about the religious complexion of Europe, but why do you think Mr P has any answers? He has enough of them in his own backyard, and they fight just like the rest. Guns can't silence religion; never have. And when the religion owns the guns...
Maybe the NRA has foresight (groan) too, after all.
Rob
These are the questions that make for a difficult night's sleep...
Peter
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I agree about the religious complexion of Europe, but why do you think Mr P has any answers? He has enough of them in his own backyard, and they fight just like the rest. Guns can't silence religion; never have. And when the religion owns the guns...
Maybe the NRA has foresight (groan) too, after all.
Rob
Saudis provide them by demand.
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I agree about the religious complexion of Europe, but why do you think Mr P has any answers? He has enough of them in his own backyard, and they fight just like the rest. Guns can't silence religion; never have. And when the religion owns the guns...
Maybe the NRA has foresight (groan) too, after all.
Rob
He doesn’t, but I like his merchandise. ;D
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Now if Turkey buys some Chinese weapons they are clearly in the middle of everything...
Poor Turkish soldier that has to learn all these languages and weaponsystems that do not communicate with one another.
These weapons could then be used in exercises shooting at each other... destruction of weapons without casualties! ;)
everybody happy
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Did something happen while I wasn't watching? Do missile defence systems work now?
As a deterrence or in action?
Cheers,
Bart
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He doesn’t, but I like his merchandise. ;D
Indeed. The thought of a barechested Trump on an elephant is un"bear"able.
Cheers,
Bart
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Indeed. The thought of a barechested Trump on an elephant is un"bear"able.
Cheers,
Bart
I doubt you'll ever see Trump at work without his suit and tie. He's a traditional businessman and dresses like it. I can't stand "modern" politicians who get on TV without a tie. Just a loose collar and trying to be "one of the boys". They just look sloppy and disrespectful of their position. You want to lead? Dress like it.
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I doubt you'll ever see Trump at work without his suit and tie. He's a traditional businessman and dresses like it. I can't stand "modern" politicians who get on TV without a tie. Just a loose collar and trying to be "one of the boys". They just look sloppy and disrespectful of their position. You want to lead? Dress like it.
Don’t mix up leadership and being the boss ....
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Don’t mix up leadership and being the boss ....
Right on, Ivo! It's amazing how many people don't understand the difference. I could give some pretty hairy examples of the difference from my 27 years in the military, but I won't.
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Don’t mix up leadership and being the boss ....
A leader takes responsibility for his actions and results especially when things go bad. I'm sure we all had bosses like that, who liked to throw their weight around and then blame others when the s4!t hits the fan. One thing likeable about Trump is he's a stand up guy. He sticks his neck out. He tells you like it is. He doesn;t sugar coat. Like his meetings with Kim. Or his tariffs. He's willing to tell natural allies to stand by the side. He's got work to do. Obama blamed Bush the former president during both his terms of screwing things up and causing problems with his presidency. He never realized that an executive's responsibility is to change the things that aren't working well. If you don't want to fix things or you want everyone to like you, don;t take the job.
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I doubt you'll ever see Trump at work without his suit and tie. He's a traditional businessman and dresses like it. I can't stand "modern" politicians who get on TV without a tie. Just a loose collar and trying to be "one of the boys". They just look sloppy and disrespectful of their position. You want to lead? Dress like it.
We have a 100% convergence of views on this one: congratulations to both of us!
;-)
Rob
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We have a 100% convergence of views on this one: congratulations to both of us!
;-)
Rob
+1 finally.
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Right on, Ivo! It's amazing how many people don't understand the difference. I could give some pretty hairy examples of the difference from my 27 years in the military, but I won't.
Well, a leader do the right things, a boss (as in manager) is doing the things right.
There’s a very important difference.
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... He has enough of them in his own backyard...
And we’d like to keep them there, in both your backyards, not in our.
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Well, a leader do the right things, a boss (as in manager) is doing the things right.
There’s a very important difference.
Well, I wouldn’t say that a leader always does the right thing, Ivo, but he always does what he thinks is the right thing.
The real difference between a leader and a boss is that a boss requires you to do what he wants done; a leader makes you eager to do what he wants done.
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Well, I wouldn’t say that a leader always does the right thing, Ivo, but he always does what he thinks is the right thing.
The real difference between a leader and a boss is that a boss requires you to do what he wants done; a leader makes you eager to do what he wants done.
That's a great definition too. You're willing to follow a leader. You admire him. You're also right about not necessarily doing the right thing. Hitler was a powerful leader who Germans admired, but also a mass murderer. Many cult figures are natural leaders who take their minions off the deep end. Jim Jones is example of that. Good examples would be Ghandi, Washington who was a hero leader and could have been king of America, but refused leaving the office of president after two 4-year terms. Is humility one of the characteristics of good leadership? Maybe that's what Ivo was referring too.
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Well, I wouldn’t say that a leader always does the right thing, Ivo, but he always does what he thinks is the right thing.
The real difference between a leader and a boss is that a boss requires you to do what he wants done; a leader makes you eager to do what he wants done.
Your definition of ‘Boss’ is obsolete. Output management is the key
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Well, I wouldn’t say that a leader always does the right thing, Ivo, but he always does what he thinks is the right thing.
The real difference between a leader and a boss is that a boss requires you to do what he wants done; a leader makes you eager to do what he wants done.
Situational leadership is the word.
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Saudis provide them by demand.
And they buy them from...
;-)
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Your definition of ‘Boss’ is obsolete. Output management is the key
New name for the same old thing, Ivo.
And I didn't complete the definition of a leader: he makes you eager to do what he wants done and convinces you that it's what needs to be done.
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That's a great definition too. You're willing to follow a leader. You admire him. You're also right about not necessarily doing the right thing. Hitler was a powerful leader who Germans admired, but also a mass murderer. Many cult figures are natural leaders who take their minions off the deep end. Jim Jones is example of that. Good examples would be Ghandi, Washington who was a hero leader and could have been king of America, but refused leaving the office of president after two 4-year terms. Is humility one of the characteristics of good leadership? Maybe that's what Ivo was referring too.
Yes Alan,
True leaders conduct a high ethical code.
To many machiavélique leadership around the world, and your potus is a fine example, isn’t he?
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Your definition of ‘Boss’ is obsolete. Output management is the key
Or as some of the website owners assume a title of CEO.
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Yes Alan,
True leaders conduct a high ethical code.
To many machiavélique leadership around the world, and your potus is a fine example, isn’t he?
Unfortunately, we had to choose between two flawed candidates. But none of us are perfect. As I look back on past presidents, many who were considered great leaders but who also had many flaws. Trump's peccadilloes aren't too particularly bad. Pretty much a typical real estate guy from NYC who got into politics late in life.
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Unfortunately, we had to choose between two flawed candidates. But none of us are perfect. As I look back on past presidents, many who were considered great leaders but who also had many flaws. Trump's peccadilloes aren't too particularly bad. Pretty much a typical real estate guy from NYC who got into politics late in life.
That it didn't prevent people voting for him is the remarkable thing there; whatever happened to the concept of those ten thousand hours, or are they totally interchangeable today, you know, every hour has sixty minutes, so... ? Anyway, In a world where fewer and fewer have permanent jobs, perhaps it's to be expected.
To his credit, he isn't doing anything anyone didn't expect. Well, perhaps tweetsville got a pleasant surprise.
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That it didn't prevent people voting for him is the remarkable thing there;
Not remarkable at all when you consider who his opponent was.
Anyway, In a world where fewer and fewer have permanent jobs, perhaps it's to be expected.
I know that's a problem in Europe, but in the US, more and more people have permanent jobs now that the economy's back on track under Trump. It may all fall apart again, but for now things are looking up.
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I know that's a problem in Europe, but in the US, more and more people have permanent jobs now that the economy's back on track under Trump. It may all fall apart again, but for now things are looking up.
::). You just make this stuff up, don’t you?
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Barack Hussein Obama indeed deserves a Nobel prize in ... physics... for inventing a perpetuum mobile trend.
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Barack Hussein Obama indeed deserves a Nobel prize in ... physics... for inventing a perpetuum mobile trend.
Did I say that? Perhaps if Russ were as precise with his English as you are, and had said “...remains on track under Trump...” it wouldn’t be so easy to point out the folly of his words. And with pictures even - that’s so Trump-briefing-ish of me!
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We had a saying the in the old chemical plant - never be the maintenance manager after one that implemented a cost savings program.
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Alan,
I wouldn't respond if I didn't have some respect for you even though I don't always agree with your politics. If your wife stuck with the public school system as long as she did she is a saint. Even though some may consider me as hippie Hugh, I have read Milton Friedman's Free to Choose which is quite conservative. If you truly are a leader why the pretentious tie. So do Christians not respect Jesus because of how he dressed? The world is different and, more people can see through the delusion. But, yes if I were summoned to court, I would cut my hair and wear a tie. I hope your wife is keeping you in line. She's the real hero.
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Alan,
I wouldn't respond if I didn't have some respect for you even though I don't always agree with your politics. If your wife stuck with the public school system as long as she did she is a saint. Even though some may consider me as hippie Hugh, I have read Milton Friedman's Free to Choose which is quite conservative. If you truly are a leader why the pretentious tie. So do Christians not respect Jesus because of how he dressed? The world is different and, more people can see through the delusion. But, yes if I were summoned to court, I would cut my hair and wear a tie. I hope your wife is keeping you in line. She's the real hero.
Thanks for your comments. I'll pass on the one regarding my wife. She'll really appreciate it.
Regarding wearing a tie and suit jacket for official events, what's the expression? Clothes make the man. Anyway, Trump isn;t Jesus. He needs all the help he can get. Maybe I'm old fashioned. If a person dresses sloppily, I get the feeling they're not serious and won't take care of my issues. Their efforts will be half baked as their clothes are. Dress up and show up. Just how I feel about it. Just like you said you would get a haircut and wear a tie in court, a president or presidential nominee should dress up the part and show he cares and is serious, not that he just rolled out of bed. People judge him just like the judge will judge you. But I respect your opinion. Many people don't care about these things any longer.
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Thanks for your comments. I'll pass on the one regarding my wife. She'll really appreciate it.
Regarding wearing a tie and suit jacket for official events, what's the expression? Clothes make the man. Anyway, Trump isn;t Jesus. He needs all the help he can get. Maybe I'm old fashioned. If a person dresses sloppily, I get the feeling they're not serious and won't take care of my issues. Their efforts will be half baked as their clothes are. Dress up and show up. Just how I feel about it. Just like you said you would get a haircut and wear a tie in court, a president or presidential nominee should dress up the part and show he cares and is serious, not that he just rolled out of bed. People judge him just like the judge will judge you. But I respect your opinion. Many people don't care about these things any longer.
US biggest company is founded and made great by a guy in T shirt.
And another one is shooting cars in space.
The both have (had) the real leadership skill: Vision.
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US biggest company is founded and made great by a guy in T shirt.
And another one is shooting cars in space.
The both have (had) the real leadership skill: Vision.
And even Theranos Inc., once valued at $9 billion, was headed by a girl in a black turtleneck. She had a grand vision, too, but didn't understand the basics.
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And even Theranos Inc., once valued at $9 billion, was headed by a girl in a black turtleneck. She had a grand vision, too, but didn't understand the basics.
Basic and not so basic skills can be hired. Peoples who do things right can be found on the market.
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What peoplw wear in private is their business; what they wear in an official capacity is an entirely different matter and they bear not only themselves but the dignity of office on their shoulders.
If my lawyer (were I ever unfortunate enough to hire one again) turned up in court in jeans I would just plead guilty or fold my case. I doubt he'd even be permitted to take his part in the process.
Apart from anything else, wearing appropriate clothing is a mark of mutual respect for the people who are gong to be interacting in some official capacity.
Of course, I know everybody understands this, but as ever, there has to be an opposing side or there'd be no argument.
:-(
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What peoplw wear in private is their business; what they wear in an official capacity is an entirely different matter and they bear not only themselves but the dignity of office on their shoulders.
If my lawyer (were I ever unfortunate enough to hire one again) turned up in court in jeans I would just plead guilty or fold my case. I doubt he'd even be permitted to take his part in the process.
Apart from anything else, wearing aporopriate clothing is a mark of mutual respect for the people who are gong to be interacting in some official capacity.
Of course, I know everybody understands this, but as ever, there has to be an opposing side or there'd be no argument.
:-(
Bad example.
As far as I know, every protagonist in court wear a dedicated dress to prevent biased judgement based on the looks. Highest court judges even wear a wig for same reason.
Lawyers with sleek appearance, silk suits and light brown monks are very good in determining the dizzying height of their hourly rates. Especially the ones specialized in tax affairs. >:(
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What peoplw wear in private is their business; what they wear in an official capacity is an entirely different matter and they bear not only themselves but the dignity of office on their shoulders.
If my lawyer (were I ever unfortunate enough to hire one again) turned up in court in jeans I would just plead guilty or fold my case. I doubt he'd even be permitted to take his part in the process.
Apart from anything else, wearing aporopriate clothing is a mark of mutual respect for the people who are gong to be interacting in some official capacity.
Of course, I know everybody understands this, but as ever, there has to be an opposing side or there'd be no argument.
:-(
I agree.
But,
Time is changing and business is more and more an on line thing. The idea of ‘going to the office’ is sooner than we can imagine an anachronism and a smart appearance will not longer be a cover up for incompetence.
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What peoplw wear in private is their business; what they wear in an official capacity is an entirely different matter and they bear not only themselves but the dignity of office on their shoulders.
If my lawyer (were I ever unfortunate enough to hire one again) turned up in court in jeans I would just plead guilty or fold my case. I doubt he'd even be permitted to take his part in the process.
Apart from anything else, wearing aporopriate clothing is a mark of mutual respect for the people who are gong to be interacting in some official capacity.
Of course, I know everybody understands this, but as ever, there has to be an opposing side or there'd be no argument.
:-(
It’s a generation thing, Rob. Not everybody understands this anymore.
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It’s a generation thing, Rob. Not everybody understands this anymore.
Then you can only blame the parents.
No, wait - today you have to blame the teachers: the parents are too busy doing something else much more important like watching soaps and tweeting.
:-)
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Two things come to mind:
(1) Dorothea Lange's photograph "White Angel Breadline," deep in the depression where almost every man in the picture, destitute as he may be, is wearing a hat.
(2) A picture on the cover of Black and White magazine several years ago of two hoboes getting out of a boxcar during the depression wearing ragged suits and hats.
There used to be a common understanding that you dressed to avoid giving offense. That was then. This is now -- beginning in what one writer called "that slum of a decade," the sixties.
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US biggest company is founded and made great by a guy in T shirt...
But showing up in a t-shirt is not going to make you a Steve Jobs.
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When I was teaching, some (college) students would show up in pajamas, with period marks still there. Great respect.
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There used to be a common understanding that you dressed to avoid giving offense. That was then. This is now -- beginning in what one writer called "that slum of a decade," the sixties.
Yeah, it has been all downhill since the Eisenhower administration. Mad Men forever.
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Since the thread is about Americans and allies, until Ivo t-boned it, and now we are discussing ties and pajamas, there was a cartoon some years ago, depicting what “casual” means to various nations. I wish I could find it. From memory, casual for the Brits means going from a tuxedo and bow tie to a regular suit and tie. The scale ends with Americans, where casual means ragged jeans and crumpled t-shirts.
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Yeah, it has been all downhill since the Eisenhower administration.
Since your age is N/A, Fab, you're obviously too young to realize Eisenhower was elected in 1952 and started his term in January, 1953. I remember vividly since I was in Korea going through the local training program and getting ready to fly my first combat mission. As it happened, Eisenhower let the North Koreans and Chinese know that if the war continued he'd use the nukes we'd trained to deliver.
The downhill slide began in the sixties, not the fifties, and it's been going on ever since.
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When I was teaching, some (college) students would show up in pajamas, with period marks still there. Great respect.
And that was the boys, I hear some remark.
Can you be certain of that, Slobodan? Some might just have sat on a - well, cherry stone. Bitter fruit the morning after.
At least we are a unique forum here, with the mental capability to leap from one thing to quite another at the snap of an elastic; I bet the competion - not the there is any - will never attain our sophistication.
;-)
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Well, if you're worth a few billion, then you can dress however you like. :)
But, I was referring mainly to dress codes for politicians. Now of the men, who do you think should not and will not become president? Don't even know his name.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/TJ1tMQWWxlZJHldZ99luxc9GeVg=/1484x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/UXE4RIU5I4I6TA7DIX663DUNFY.jpg (https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/TJ1tMQWWxlZJHldZ99luxc9GeVg=/1484x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/UXE4RIU5I4I6TA7DIX663DUNFY.jpg)
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What peoplw wear in private is their business; what they wear in an official capacity is an entirely different matter and they bear not only themselves but the dignity of office on their shoulders.
If my lawyer (were I ever unfortunate enough to hire one again) turned up in court in jeans I would just plead guilty or fold my case. I doubt he'd even be permitted to take his part in the process.
Apart from anything else, wearing aporopriate clothing is a mark of mutual respect for the people who are gong to be interacting in some official capacity.
Of course, I know everybody understands this, but as ever, there has to be an opposing side or there'd be no argument.
:-(
+1
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I wonder why the p and o are so close to one another on the keypoard: "aporopriate" - I must train those damn fingers better. And in the heat, I can't even blame my close friend Raynaud! Maybe the cataracts give me an out!
;-(
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..Don't even know his name...
Shame on you. He is the guy who said he will pass what he saves on ties to the American people: $1000 per month to each soul.
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Shame on you. He is the guy who said he will pass what he saves on ties to the American people: $1000 per month to each soul.
How bad can it be? How many Sioux remain?
;-)
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Shame on you. He is the guy who said he will pass what he saves on ties to the American people: $1000 per month to each soul.
I think my grandfather was in the schmatta business back 100 years ago. Either ties or pocketbooks. At least women still use pocketbooks.
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I think my grandfather was in the schmatta business back 100 years ago. Either ties or pocketbooks. At least women still use pocketbooks.
It feels to me that the entire rag trade was a hundred years ago. Philip Green did well out of it.
Now, it's an Amazonian box business.
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Since your age is N/A, Fab, you're obviously too young to realize Eisenhower was elected in 1952 and started his term in January, 1953.
I am flattered you think I am so young. I admit I am not yet of the socks and sandals set.
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But showing up in a t-shirt is not going to make you a Steve Jobs.
Agreed. Carrying a MacBook doesn’t help neither. Same as photographing in B&W and chasing strange maniérisme doesn’t make you HCB.
I admit, I start to have a strange love affair with this website.
:o :o ::)
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Since the thread is about Americans and allies, until Ivo t-boned it, and now we are discussing ties and pajamas, there was a cartoon some years ago, depicting what “casual” means to various nations. I wish I could find it. From memory, casual for the Brits means going from a tuxedo and bow tie to a regular suit and tie. The scale ends with Americans, where casual means ragged jeans and crumpled t-shirts.
I tried to find some explanation on this expression.
Urbandictionary.com is not very helpfully.
:o
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What peoplw wear in private is their business; what they wear in an official capacity is an entirely different matter and they bear not only themselves but the dignity of office on their shoulders.
Does this apply to wearing comically long ties?
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I tried to find some explanation on this expression...
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Thanks, I found less decent explanations.
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Does this apply to wearing comically long ties?
You mean privately or publicly?
When I was a teen I bought one of those long and skinny, parallel-sided ties all the Teds wore; you tied it in a Windsor knot and then let it hang quite low down your neck so's to be ready for action. Mine was black and dark blue. I don't know where it went. Perhaps my mother threw it away in disgust. I think of it now and again, and would even go as far as to don a shirt sometimes just to flaunt it. Much like my hassy pair, you might say: gone forever.
Didn't stamper post a shot of a Glasgow geezer wearing that gear not too long ago?
Rob
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As far as I know, every protagonist in court wear a dedicated dress to prevent biased judgement based on the looks. Highest court judges even wear a wig for same reason.
There can only be one protagonist; check your Greek drama.
The only judges in England who wear wigs are those sitting on criminal matters at first instance.
Lawyers with sleek appearance, silk suits and light brown monks are very good in determining the dizzying height of their hourly rates. Especially the ones specialized in tax affairs. >:(
I'm not sure what "light brown monks" might be, but experience demonstrates that absence of sleek appearance, and certainly absence of a silk suit (does anyone wear a silk suit?) does not prevent someone determining his (or indeed her) own charges.
Jeremy
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Nuke them all, g*ddamnit! ::)
I hope we will get out under the US suppression and we soon can vote Poetin as president.
If not, Europe will be fully Islamized in a few generations time, thanks to the, by US supported, Saudis.
That’s a demographic fact.
😳😳🤫
I listened to a very good podcast last week on this exact topic. Tyler Cowen, an econ professor at George Mason, had a conversation with Eric Kaufmann on immigration and demography. The podcast and transcript if you don't want to read it is here: https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/tyler-cowen-eric-kaufmann-population-religion-culture-6e85bf9c8c07 A number of Islamic states including Iran now have birthrates lower than the replacement number. This is conterintuitive to what you might think. Kaufmann notes that the first real example of a minority swamping a majority because of high birthrate will be Israel. Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel have a birthrate four times that of the secular Jews. If you believe in demographic trends, the US will ultimately become a Mormon country because of their high birthrate. Kaufmann believes Europe will never exceed 25% Muslim by population. You have to account for assimilation and intermarriage.
Lots of good stuff in this conversation.
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There can only be one protagonist; check your Greek drama.
The only judges in England who wear wigs are those sitting on criminal matters at first instance.
I'm not sure what "light brown monks" might be, but experience demonstrates that absence of sleek appearance, and certainly absence of a silk suit (does anyone wear a silk suit?) does not prevent someone determining his (or indeed her) own charges.
Jeremy
Thanks to remind me the Greek drama principals.
For the rest, you are not really counter speaking my point?
Light brown monks:
(https://cdn.lookastic.com/brown-leather-double-monks/okeeffe-manach-leather-monk-strap-shoes-original-188809.jpg)
Do you wear light brown monks, Jeremy? ;)
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... Europe will never exceed 25% Muslim by population...
As if that is not frightening enough.
As for Iran's low birth rate. Here is a parallel with Kosovo. Albania proper, being the poor Stalinist/Maoist country at the time, simply could not sustain a high birth rate. The same ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, part of Yugoslavia and a much different socialism, pouring $1 million a day into the region, and providing all sorts of social benefits, including child care, saw their families having a dozen children. Oh, not to mention our humane treatment of Albanian refugees, offering them land and houses of Serbs driven out by terror. So, in a short span of hundred years, Albanian population in Kosovo grows from a 10% minority to 90% majority.
Today, the most common name given to male babies in Norway is... Mohammed. Germany, after years of having declining natality, is growing again. Guess who accounts for most of the births? Oh, not to forget the "no-go" zones in Germany.
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I listened to a very good podcast last week on this exact topic. Tyler Cowen, an econ professor at George Mason, had a conversation with Eric Kaufmann on immigration and demography. The podcast and transcript if you don't want to read it is here: https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/tyler-cowen-eric-kaufmann-population-religion-culture-6e85bf9c8c07 A number of Islamic states including Iran now have birthrates lower than the replacement number. This is conterintuitive to what you might think. Kaufmann notes that the first real example of a minority swamping a majority because of high birthrate will be Israel. Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel have a birthrate four times that of the secular Jews. If you believe in demographic trends, the US will ultimately become a Mormon country because of their high birthrate. Kaufmann believes Europe will never exceed 25% Muslim by population. You have to account for assimilation and intermarriage.
Lots of good stuff in this conversation.
Thanks for the good reading, Alan.
About the assimilation and intermarriage: It’s not (yet) happening in the sense it will change the religious preferences. And to be honest, why should it happen.
Western Christianity is perhaps the most hated religion in the world, and maybe we can not blame them.
Our colonial mentality is not one easy to digest.
....
:o
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Thanks for the good reading, Alan.
About the assimilation and intermarriage: It’s not (yet) happening in the sense it will change the religious preferences. And to be honest, why should it happen.
Western Christianity is perhaps the most hated religion in the world, and maybe we can not blame them.
Our colonial mentality is not one easy to digest.
....
:o
The rate of intermarriage among Reform Jews in the US is about 40%. At our synagogue in Washington DC, almost 50% of the members are of mixed marriage.
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... Light brown monks...
And now something completely different: guess what just popped up in my Facebook stream, just minutes after viewing Ivo's favorite shoes? Creepy as hell.
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As if that is not frightening enough.
As for Iran's low birth rate. Here is a parallel with Kosovo. Albania proper, being the poor Stalinist/Maoist country at the time, simply could not sustain a high birth rate. The same ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, part of Yugoslavia and a much different socialism, pouring $1 million a day into the region, and providing all sorts of social benefits, including child care, saw their families having a dozen children. Oh, not to mention our humane treatment of Albanian refugees, offering them land and houses of Serbs driven out by terror. So, in a short span of hundred years, Albanian population in Kosovo grows from a 10% minority to 90% majority.
Today, the most common name given to male babies in Norway is... Mohammed. Germany, after years of having declining natality, is growing again. Guess who accounts for most of the births? Oh, not to forget the "no-go" zones in Germany.
I think this is spot on. Savile Town in Yorkshire, Molenbeek and Borgerhout in Belgium are good examples of how that assimilation (not) works.
There are more established communities but they don’t convert religion.
Assimilation is not a unilateral movement. Western pluralism and loss of spiritual meaning will not be a valuable replacement for Islam.
Hopefully a liberal form of Islam will be the result of the assimilation.
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And now something completely different: guess what just popped up in my Facebook stream, just minutes after viewing Ivo's favorite shoes? Creepy as hell.
Facebooks logarithm determines you are the ideal profile to wear light brown Monk shoes. Whahaha.
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The rate of intermarriage among Reform Jews in the US is about 40%. At our synagogue in Washington DC, almost 50% of the members are of mixed marriage.
Hm,
There is a serious difference in Jew culture and Islam Culture and their proliferation in Western world.
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Thanks for the good reading, Alan.
About the assimilation and intermarriage: It’s not (yet) happening in the sense it will change the religious preferences. And to be honest, why should it happen.
Western Christianity is perhaps the most hated religion in the world, and maybe we can not blame them.
Our colonial mentality is not one easy to digest.
....
:o
I might easily be mistaken, but I imagine that colonialism is way back on the very backmost of burners.
I think the truth has to be almost the opposite: those guys are here, not outside. It's first economics, then anger that they had to leave home to get into civilization again, having once had a leading one that brought us the benefits of many different sciences; that's a tough one to swallow, especially when you come to realise you brought most of its disappearance upon yourselves. The early Moors in Spain were perfectly willing and able to live alongside Jews and Christians, but a later wave of different colour of Islam put a stop to all of that and brought in intolerance; ain't all a one-way street, that.
Of course, our various crusades have been enshrined as works of the devil. When a church and various kings tell you you can pillage, plunder and rape, keep all you collect and still be forgiven your sins and reserve your apartment in heaven (exactly the same gambit that was used to wipe out the Cathars in southern France), love and respect are difficult to sustain, and some opposing forces do manage the respect part of that equation, but not then and in those circumstances. So yeah, whilst I never heard Rome offering any number of virgins after the event, the rest of the deal today, as seen from the Moslem perspective, ain't a hundred miles from that of those pesky men in armour. Goose, gander?
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Hm,
There is a serious difference in Jew culture and Islam Culture and their proliferation in Western world.
the big Jewish immigration in the US was 1880-1910 approximately. We have several generations now and with each one intermarriage increases. I don't know what the statistics might be for Islamic immigration.
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... Of course, our various crusades...
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o yeah, whilst I never heard Rome offering any number of virgins after the event, the rest of the deal today, as seen from the Moslem perspective, ain't a hundred miles from that of those pesky men in armour. Goose, gander?
The best send up about the offering of 72 virgins to holy warriors was by the great American comic, Steve Martin. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/01/29/seventy-two-virgins Well worth re-reading every year or so!!!
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Not any more ;)
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The best send up about the offering of 72 virgins to holy warriors was by the great American comic, Steve Martin. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/01/29/seventy-two-virgins Well worth re-reading every year or so!!!
Enjoyed those that!
Rob
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This thread is becoming very depressing. The one about the extreme weather and dying polar bears is more uplifting.
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How about if you superimpose European Colonialism on that second one.
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How about if you superimpose European Colonialism on that second one.
Feel free.
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Feel free.
It’s easy. Just take your little red dots and cover North America, South America, Africa, Australia and lots of SE Asia. It’ll make the Moorish occupations seem small by comparison. Feel better now?
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... It’ll make the Moorish Muslim occupations seem small by comparison. Feel better now?
No.
When you spend five hundred years under that "small" occupation, come back to me.
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No.
When you spend five hundred years under that "small" occupation, come back to me.
James made my point.
But you have a strong case as well. Lack of exegesis (as Rob said earlier) makes Islam a rather stagnating way of civilization.
Difficult difficult.
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Man has always made war. We're a territorial animal that wants to expand to increase resources to better better support the members of our group. We also enjoy stealing that which doesn't belong to us. I don't think pointing at one group or another to declare certain superiorites accomplishes anything. We've all done it one time or another.
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....We've all done it one time or another.
Which is history. What matters is a contemporary comparison between a religion still stuck in medieval times and the western civilization. Today, not “one time or another.”
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Do you wear light brown monks, Jeremy? ;)
Never at work: no brown in town. I have a pair of brown brogues which I reserve for the (sadly rare, given the English weather) occasions on which I'm able to wear my cream linen suit.
Jeremy
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Never at work: no brown in town. I have a pair of brown brogues which I reserve for the (sadly rare, given the English weather) occasions on which I'm able to wear my cream linen suit.
Jeremy
A good choice, Jeremy.
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Never at work: no brown in town. I have a pair of brown brogues which I reserve for the (sadly rare, given the English weather) occasions on which I'm able to wear my cream linen suit.
Jeremy
I own one suit, in black. It witnessed two funerals. I hope the next time it sees air it's for mine. That said, if I have to go, I'd rather go in jeans and T-shirt: a cheaper burn. Maybe it can be exported back and sold off to some unsuspecting, aura-insensitive punter in a charity shop.
Must say, I always did fancy a cream suit, and I'd like a pale blue tie to match my '59 Coupe de Ville, which I also do not have but always fancied. The suit, of course, would have to have been by Brioni.
I draw the line at modified Leicas, though, and any Rolex with coloured dials.
Rob
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I own one suit, in black. It witnessed two funerals. I hope the next time it sees air it's for mine. That said, if I have to go, I'd rather go in jeans and T-shirt: a cheaper burn. Maybe it can be exported back and sold off to some unsuspecting, aura-insensitive punter in a charity shop.
Must say, I always did fancy a cream suit, and I'd like a pale blue tie to match my '59 Coupe de Ville, which I also do not have but always fancied. The suit, of course, would have to have been by Brioni.
I draw the line at modified Leicas, though, and any Rolex with coloured dials.
Rob
Do you mean yellow Lizard leatherette and golden softie? (Your pimped out and chromed out Rolex points in that direction)
Or is it all more technical and sense full.
Come on, show us some pics. 😬🤓
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Never at work: no brown in town. I have a pair of brown brogues which I reserve for the (sadly rare, given the English weather) occasions on which I'm able to wear my cream linen suit.
Jeremy
Brown used to be a very popular color for both shoes and men's suits. Things changed in the early 1970s when blue and grey became the standard for business dress. President Reagan began wearing brown again. When once questioned by a fashion reporter, he noted that Nancy was the one who picked out his suits and ties. the office I worked in had a rigid dress code until the last couple of years. Business attire (suits) was required other than during the summer months when we had casual Fridays. I usually had blue and grey suits during my work years with an occasional brown suit. During the hot months, I had a nice cotton seersucker suit and was featured in a Washington Post article one very hot summer day when I was interviewed for a feature story on why men wear suits in such weather. ;D
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Do you mean yellow Lizard leatherette and golden softie? (Your pimped out and chromed out Rolex points in that direction)
Or is it all more technical and sense full.
Come on, show us some pics. 😬🤓
For all the latest you need but consult the Leica company website.
Rolex achieved peak engineering/design synthesis with the arrival of the Submariner, my own version which, I shall have you know, I had before a certain gentleman who has the funny name of Bond James Bond (It looks like an afterthought, that name; BJB indeed! I understand why his employers decided to use a number instead!) was given one. I bought my own. You may buy your own Rolex, but never your own silver; that's the kind of thing that makes the aristocratic British unique. Unfortunately, silver has gone out of fashion since it is now too expensive to employ people to polish it for you. That is principally why the previous generation is so generous with it: it can't bear the thought of actually selling it.
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Brown used to be a very popular color for both shoes and men's suits. Things changed in the early 1970s when blue and grey became the standard for business dress. President Reagan began wearing brown again. When once questioned by a fashion reporter, he noted that Nancy was the one who picked out his suits and ties. the office I worked in had a rigid dress code until the last couple of years. Business attire (suits) was required other than during the summer months when we had casual Fridays. I usually had blue and grey suits during my work years with an occasional brown suit. During the hot months, I had a nice cotton seersucker suit and was featured in a Washington Post article one very hot summer day when I was interviewed for a feature story on why men wear suits in such weather. ;D
Well, Alan, you have one of the nappier avatars in this thread.