Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: grilla on June 25, 2019, 08:21:42 pm

Title: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: grilla on June 25, 2019, 08:21:42 pm
I am a hobbyist and have noticed that I see Nikon D850's and higher end Sony's in the field. I have never seen a EOS 5DS or 5DS-R and have also seen very little mention of it in the forums. I am curious as to why you might think that might be.It has 50mp, decent reviews, and the price appears to be right (I do see them heavily discounted from time to time).
Just curious as to your opinion.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 25, 2019, 11:26:05 pm
The sensor used in the 5Ds is based on 7 or 8 years old sensor technology. It was in fact already significantly behind its times the day it was announced.

Itís dynamic range is 2 to 3 stops behind the best.

Most other aspects of its performance are similarly outdated, in particular its AF system.

If you have to use a Canon DSLR, the 5DmkIV or 1DxII are probably better overall options. If you are not already invested in EOS mount lenses I would clearly stay away. There are much better options starting with Sony mirrorless.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: viewfinder on June 29, 2019, 11:30:16 am
Interesting!

A curious feature of 'LL' is that some otherwise well regarded cameras get short shrift here.    When nikon d850 came out there was almost universal enthusiasm across the web but reading here one might have thought that it was not really of saleable quality.....    Now here we have the highly regarded 5D from Canon equally sneered at....mystery!    Many sites across the web consider the earlier 5D moidels to be excellent buys for amateur and occaisonal photographers who desire good image quality/function,...indeed, I have been toying with the same idea myself as a car camera for the odd landscape and tech photo for website use etc....originally I was looking for a nikon d700 b ut have been reliably informed that my meagre funds will go much further and be more effective if I shelve the d700 idea and go for a 5Dii or iii.......

comments would be valued!
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: sbay on June 29, 2019, 12:00:09 pm
The 5Ds came out right about the same times as the sony a7R2. At that time I decided to switch over in part because of the limited IQ on the canon. I think more than a few canon landscape shooters did so as well.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on June 29, 2019, 12:03:49 pm
The 5Ds came out right about the same times as the sony a7R2. At that time I decided to switch over in part because of the limited IQ on the canon. I think more than a few canon landscape shooters did so as well.

Yep. I found Canon to be solid, reliable and uninspiring. Moved to Sony with a bunch of APSC bodies and an A7RII.

Of course utterly brilliant and award winning images can be made with a Canon camera.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 29, 2019, 12:33:53 pm
Oh, my! Why has nobody told me before that I am shooting with an inferior camera, resulting in inferior photographs!?
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: 32BT on June 29, 2019, 12:47:01 pm
Oh, my! Why has nobody told me before that I am shooting with an inferior camera, resulting in inferior photographs!?

Comprehensive readingskillzzzz ftw. They are saying no such thing:
Yep. I found Canon to be solid, reliable and uninspiring. Moved to Sony with a bunch of APSC bodies and an A7RII.

Of course utterly brilliant and award winning images can be made with a Canon camera.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: viewfinder on June 29, 2019, 12:56:25 pm
Well unfortunately I live in the UK where this stuff is "absurdly expensive", and even the early A7 24milpix models are twice the price of 5d models and well outside what i have to spend given a raft of other passions, two classic vehicles, ancient cottage and vital charity to support.   Also there are the sony drawbacks;...namely, the weird shape demanding finger joints where i don't have any, always flat battery and the stock sony reply when (not if) it stops working...."we don't have any parts left and there are better models now so just buy a new one"
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on June 29, 2019, 01:04:08 pm
Well unfortunately I live in the UK where this stuff is "absurdly expensive", and even the early A7 24milpix models are twice the price of 5d models and well outside what i have to spend given a raft of other passions, two classic vehicles, ancient cottage and vital charity to support.   Also there are the sony drawbacks;...namely, the weird shape demanding finger joints where i don't have any, always flat battery and the stock sony reply when (not if) it stops working...."we don't have any parts left and there are better models now so just buy a new one"

Well then just relax yourself and buy the Canon. Why on earth did you even look at the Sony since it has those glaring flaws anyway?

If you donít get brilliant  images with the Canon it certainly wonít be the cameras fault.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 29, 2019, 01:08:54 pm
Comprehensive readingskillzzzz ftw. They are saying no such thing:

I was responding mostly to Bernard's bashing. If I wanted to respond to Martin directly, I would have quoted him.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 29, 2019, 01:11:51 pm
... I have never seen a EOS 5DS or 5DS-R and have also seen very little mention of it in the forums. I am curious as to why you might think that might be....

Because, like with most online reviews of anything, it is filled with tire-kickers and bitchers & moaners. The rest of us, silent majority, just go out and shoot, making the best of the equipment we have, not chasing the best equipment there is.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: faberryman on June 29, 2019, 02:00:23 pm
Oh, my! Why has nobody told me before that I am shooting with an inferior camera, resulting in inferior photographs!?
I find members here rarely say anything negative about posted images, so you have to factor that in. I have seen absolutely crap images with a lot of backslapping and high five-ing.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 29, 2019, 02:13:09 pm
I find members here rarely say anything negative about posted images...

You obviously haven't read some of my critiques ;)

Having said that, I have never ever said anything like "Hey, dude, your dynamic range sucks in this image." Nor anyone else said that.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: faberryman on June 29, 2019, 02:35:20 pm
You obviously haven't read some of my critiques ;)
Well, I have only been around here a year or so, but my experience is that you rarely say anything critical about an image. Perhaps you are mellowing out from the old days.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: viewfinder on June 29, 2019, 03:59:31 pm
Interesting that my impressions are not just mine alone it seems;

https://petapixel.com/2019/06/28/i-switched-from-canon-to-sony-4-years-ago-here-are-8-things-ive-learned/
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 29, 2019, 05:39:14 pm
Oh, my! Why has nobody told me before that I am shooting with an inferior camera...!?

Donít confuse not being told and deciding not to listen. :D

Even I can take decent images with most cameras, but this doesnít say anything about how much better off I would be with best in class equipment. Donít forget that seen from our Sony team itís rather amazing that anyone using a Nikon Z7 is able to do any write operation to a memory card let alone call that a photograph. But I am able to recognize the superiority of their camera on some aspects.

And... the existence of the expression ďsilent majorityĒ doesnít imply that every silence is an expression of the existence of an underlying majority. A much more plausible explanation for silence is that thereís nobody left to speak. ;)

Finally, only fan boys call ďbashingĒ a factual contrary view about their outdated equipment of choice, even if their talent as a photographer helps then overcome most of the negatives. Since you are too smart to be a fanboy, how about trying to escape the society of the spectacle forcing you into a role of defense of a brand you owe nothing to and that has delivered as only thank you the release of a long stream of lukewarm camera bodies?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 29, 2019, 05:51:08 pm
Bernard,

Choosing a camera is so much more than comparing measurbators' charts.

If I want to generalize, I would say that those who think along the lines "how much better off I would be with best in class equipment" and constantly jumping the ship for the next best thing are typically rather lousy to average photographers.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 29, 2019, 05:54:11 pm
Bernard,

Choosing a camera is so much more than comparing measurbators' charts.

If I want to generalize, I would say that those who think along the lines "how much better off I would be with best in class equipment" and constantly jumping the ship for the next best thing are typically rather lousy to average photographers.

I agree, and thatís why I donít own the latest a9 with firmware 5.0 (although I agree it focuses better than any canera I own), but there is a difference btwn constantly jumping ship and acknowledging consistant inferiority and calling it a day.

Anyway, your call my friend.

But would you go as far as honestly advising newcomers to buy a 5Ds? Iíd be really interested in the rationale...

My view is that we make decisions at a point in time based on whatís best for us. I picked Nikon, you picked Canon. And thatís fine. Canon makes great lenses, their WB is excellent which results in nice colors. Their cameras work for your applications.

But there is frankly zero reason to pick Canon today if your start from scratch, and very little reason to select Nikon also btw. Thatís why I advised Sony to the OP. I have no eggs in either basket, I am just being objective as I have always tried to be. I used to belong to a small minority of ďseriousĒ photographers not using Canon, now ďseriousĒ Canon shooters are becoming a minority.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 29, 2019, 06:36:26 pm
... But would you go as far as honestly advising newcomers to buy a 5Ds? Iíd be really interested in the rationale...

If someone just crawled out from under a rock (that is, completely new to photography, say coming from a smartphone camera), I would not suggest 5Ds. Having said that, I wouldn't suggest D850 or Sony 7 or 9 series either. Too sophisticated for a newbie. But if you (or they) insist on immediately jumping to the best, I would suggest to handle all three cameras, maybe try it for a few days, to see how it feels.

I once wanted to buy a Leica R (reflex), tried it in a store, and immediately disliked it to the point of abandoning the purchase idea. Then a few years later I tried Leica S and immediately fell in love with it (in contrast to the R model, I couldn't afford the S).

Furthermore, the newcomer you mention would need to tell me what are his intentions with the camera. What type of photography? How big the prints? How many lenses? Which type? I bought a 50 Mpx camera, for instance, because at the time I was selling really big pictures in art fairs, and I already own plenty of Canon stuff.

If the newcomer is not really a total newcomer, but is already invested in a certain ecosystem, would need to know how expensive and time consuming it would be to jump the ship.

But let's say I lose all my equipment in a fire or is stolen and I get insurance money fully. I would first reevaluate my current needs. Do I still need big prints? If no, I might downgrade to m4/3 for portability. If my needs remained the same, I would give a chance to Nikon D850 (I still prefer the optical viewfinder), but not until I try it for handling. I would also try Sony for the same. Depending on my mood (long-term one) I might be too lazy to learn a new system and would stick to Canon.

5Ds today is rather old, so I wouldn't buy another one today. If I would stick to Canon, I would probably go the mirrorless route, perhaps waiting for the pro body. The attraction? The new 70-200/2.8 which is significantly more compact than the old version, as well as the new crop of lenses.

Does that answer your question? :)
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 29, 2019, 06:55:13 pm
Yes!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: BobShaw on June 29, 2019, 07:52:44 pm
The 5Ds was a big improvement for me over the 5D2, which was also a great camera.
I bought it mainly because of a good deal, which was less than I paid for the 5D2 at least 5 years earlier, and that it was 50MP which allowed more pixels for landscapes.
The image quality is OK but I thought that the Hasselblad H3DII-39 I already had gave a better image. So MP is certainly not everything. Sometimes less is more.

I still use the Canon extensively on trips and took 7000 images with on a recent trip to Europe.
However I now use the X1D for landscapes as it is smaller and lighter and has GPS. I also use that for studio work.
A 6D would probably be fine for me now as for most travel shots 20MP is plenty and GPS is helpful.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Craig Lamson on July 02, 2019, 09:09:38 am
Say what you will. The 5Ds I own makes wonderful images and it has earned me a great deal of money since I purchased it.  I see no compelling reason to upgrade or switch systems.  That makes zero financial sense for my business.  I compete against others who use diferent systems and I have yet  (and this goes back decades) had a client say I should use a specfic camera or that X photographers images from X camera are better from a camera perspective.

My needs are not the needs of everyone else.  I went decades with the same cameras back in the film days.  I got off the constant upgrade path with the 1DSIII.  The 5Ds was only purchased to provide a bit more cropping possibility.  The Canon system has been very good to me professionally.  Rock solid performance wiht very few breakdowns with every day usage. And when a breakdown did occur Canon service was top notch.

Ok , I'm an old curmudgeon.  I don't chase the equipment dragon anymore.  I don't fault those that do but I simply don't see the need, at least for me.  Heck I pulled out my original 1Ds a few weeks ago and was amazed at the files it made.  My point is that great images can be made with what many consider "inferior equipment".

To the OP.  If you like the 5Ds, and the price point, buy it and make images.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 03, 2019, 05:59:21 pm
Such decision are better taken with opportunity cost in mind.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Craig Lamson on July 04, 2019, 02:54:50 pm
Such decision are better taken with opportunity cost in mind.

Cheers,
Bernard

For some, maybe.   For others like myself, ROI makes far better sense.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 04, 2019, 04:38:18 pm
For some, maybe.   For others like myself, ROI makes far better sense.

Craig,

This is pretty much the same thing.

Opportunity cost is the value (ROI) you would have gotten with best alternative option.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: smthopr on July 04, 2019, 05:37:55 pm
I bought my 5Ds one year ago, upgrading from a 5D "classic".  Does it have the dynamic range of some others? Not quite.

But, it's still a very fine instrument, and works with the lenses that I already owned.  I think it's more pleasant to handle than a Sony A7RIII, and with the small prime lenses I use, not even heavier.  So, if one has the need or desire for 50mpx, it's a quite reasonable choice.  I'll probably use mine for a good many more years.  There is really nothing about it that limits my style of photography.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: James Clark on July 05, 2019, 01:52:31 pm
I, too, remain primarily a Canon person.  I have Fuji and Sony (as well as Phase One until recently) in my closet as well, but time and time again I still make my best images with the Canon equipment (5d4 or 5DSR) and a small selections of zooms (16-35, 25-104, and 70-200).  Why?  Because I'm not really limited by the technology of any specific camera, but I'm a "loose" shooter (even on my paid architecture gigs), and for me having to worry about the camera itself plays havoc with the flow of my seeing and my shooting.  Same with my lenses.  I guess I'm sacrificing some iota of ultimate quality with the zooms, but being able to scale the image and shoot for "feel" produces better images for me than stopping to think through the body/lens/dynamic range equation.

Sure, maybe Canon isn't cutting edge like the newest Nikon or Sony stuff, but I have yet to see what I'm losing at the edges of the sensor's capability.
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body - converted to Infra-red B/W
Post by: Robert DeCandido PhD on July 10, 2019, 07:02:10 am
I just had my 5Ds converted to IR by Kolari Vision (720nm conversion). I've shot Canon IR infra-red now for 10 years or so...

They tell me that removing the Bayer filter (as part of the IR conversion process) adds about two stops to the dynamic range that the sensor can capture...

I've also found that for the lenses I like to use in IR (the 16-34 F4 eg), the Canon has no hot spots...

two images from an ongoing project on the Bronx River here in NYC (the only freshwater river in the city..the Hudson is not in NYC).

rdc/bx
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 11, 2019, 06:07:40 am
Lovely images!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: kers on July 11, 2019, 08:23:08 am
The trees image is wonderful!
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Simon J.A. Simpson on July 12, 2019, 10:00:19 am
+1
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Robert DeCandido PhD on July 13, 2019, 09:54:46 am
one of the significant advantages of infra-red b/w is the absence of the 3D effect > It is instead a flattened fauna/flora effect. As a biologist and not photographer, I embraced this technique.

This photo from a parking lot near the Bx River since people seem to prefer trees. Here's another
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Dave (Isle of Skye) on July 13, 2019, 02:58:50 pm
I am a hobbyist and have noticed that I see Nikon D850's and higher end Sony's in the field. I have never seen a EOS 5DS or 5DS-R and have also seen very little mention of it in the forums. I am curious as to why you might think that might be.It has 50mp, decent reviews, and the price appears to be right (I do see them heavily discounted from time to time).
Just curious as to your opinion.

I think this is similar to the discussion on lens sharpness, Dof and sensor size/quality etc from a few weeks ago, and I think the answer (for me at least) is going to be somewhat similar - as in I believe all modern cameras these days are more than 'Good Enough' for the vast majority of photographers, so buy what you prefer based on what you like (you know ergonomics, menu layout etc), because it will be more than capable of doing the job for you.

I also loved both of my 5d's and never thought I would change, but the 5dMkIII wsn't an upgrade I thought warranted the money and so I thought I should wait for the 5dMkIV, but then the 5DS/R came out and I thought yes, that's the one for me. But then OnLandscape did a simple test between the 5DR and the A7RII and the Sony blew the 5DR away for dynamic range, so I bought one of those instead and utterly hated it. But over time I got my head around it (by turning everything off and using it in fully manual mode only) and now I am really very happy with it - or at least the 42mp sensor inside it, which is amazing when I compare it to the files I used to get out of the 5DMkII.

But my absolute dream camera would be, a 5d body with an OVF, but with the A7RII/III sensor. Now that really would be amazing, but would the quality of the images be any better? Probably not, but I would love to get back to a Canon body.
Dave
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: viewfinder on July 13, 2019, 03:54:19 pm
Dave,.....the sony sensor on A7Rii is apparently the same as that in the nikon d850, which is a conventional dslr, so have you tried that and what are your thoughts please
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: Dave (Isle of Skye) on July 13, 2019, 06:36:49 pm
Dave,.....the sony sensor on A7Rii is apparently the same as that in the nikon d850, which is a conventional dslr, so have you tried that and what are your thoughts please

The last Nikon I ever used in earnest (I was running a 4 day workshop at the time and it was a participants camera, but he wasn't sure how to use it, so I had to get my head around it for him), was the D800E, which was a cracking camera, and if I hadn't already spent so much on Canon Lenses, I could have been tempted, although the double click for mirror lock up is a really bad idea IMHO and one I believe they still insist on using. So yes, the sensor will be really good and Nikon do make some quality lenses, but not quite as good as Canon (again IMHO).

But as I said in my earlier reply, whatever you choose, it will certainly do the job for you  :)

Dave
Title: Re: EOS 5DS Body
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 14, 2019, 05:38:44 pm
Although Canon does make some great lenses, all the available data point to the fact that a large majority of Nikonís lenses released since 2015 are better than their closest Canon DSLR equivalents.

- 19mm T/S
- 28mm f1.4
- 105mm f1.4
- 24-70mm f2.8 featuring VR
- 70-200mm f2.8, still superior to the Canon 70-200mm f2.8 III released after.

We could argue that some of that is the just the normal alternance and say that the Canon 12-24mm f4 is better, which would still only mean that they are just as good as each others.

In the mirrorless world they have chosen completely opposite directions with Nikon prioritizing compactness and coherence and Canon going for higher end lenses without a matching camera. The 24-70mm f2.8 and 50mm f1.2 will be the first comparable lens. As of now the Nikon is the best 24-70mm f2.8 ever designed and is pretty much flawless. We will see whether Canon can do as well. On the other hand, the Canon 50mm f1.2 RF is the best bright 50mm f1.2 ever designed (but isnít flawless), can Nikon do as well?

My view is that today lens quality is super high on both side. The deciding factor should be the bodies and whether the lens positioning matches your needs or not. For me in the DSLR world the D850 is very far ahead and Nikon has all the high quality lenses needed to keep any pro more than happy, while in the mirrorless world I expect coherent compactness above all and I am getting that from Nikon as we speak.

Cheers,
Bernard