Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Yvan Bedard on May 13, 2019, 02:50:09 pm
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Hello,
This new but expensive and unique canvas seems very interesting for very high end fine art prints. Has any of you tried it?
Forgot the URL https://www.breathingcolor.com/belgian-linen (https://www.breathingcolor.com/belgian-linen)
Thanks,
Yvan
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A dumb question: What exactly are very high end fine art prints ?
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A dumb question: What exactly are very high end fine art prints ?
Great question ;D I have no scientific answer to your question. These words are mine and I admit they were written very loosely based on my experience and readings. I've been selling prints for more than 10 years and my fine art prints in art galleries for 5 years. They sell well and I have clients in several countries on 4 continents. They are made with great care with color-calibrated workflow, top quality medium and typically archival-quality medium in highly-limited limited editions. I use the legal definition of "photographic fine art" used in France and other European countries where limited editions must be smaller than 30 prints to be considered fine art (from a legal and income tax point-of-view). In addition, I print all my photos myself (up to 44 inches wide x any length), they are hand-signed individually, and framed by a professional framer using my specifications. Each print has a pair of uniquely-numbered holographic seal that is non-removable and non-reproducible, one on the back of the print and one on the Certificate of authenticity. I also deliver Certificates of Archival Quality, the History behind the photo, a Quality Guarantee, Instruction for long-term conservation, etc. They sell well because people recognize the quality of the work (photo and everything that goes with them).
Anyway, it is only my vision. The reason I wrote "very high end" was not scientific wording ;) It only related to the very high price of this new media, by its apparently extra qualities when compared to cotton-based canvas, and by the fact it is the same medium that was used "for centuries by famous artists such as Dali, Whistler, Monet, and more" :) Believe me, this would be a good sale argument to use!
So, whatever how we call the final result, I'm interested if people with professional printing experience have tried it. It is a new product and I would like to have feedback before investing in a roll simply for testing (they are expensive as I said).
Thanks,
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Paper as a substrate is far more stable and if made archival, far superior to cotton canvas and linen. Stretched cotton canvas and linen are highly susceptible to the changing weather. Their expansion and contraction over time will destroy the surface. I cant figure out why photographers want to print on canvas. Paper is so much more a beautiful a surface for the eye to devour.
Peter
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Customers absolutely LOVE it.
I sell 100 rolls of canvas to every roll of Fine Art paper.
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Customers absolutely LOVE it.
I sell 100 rolls of canvas to every roll of Fine Art paper.
Of course they do and why is that?
Peter
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I would be curious what the answer is to why customers prefer canvas over paper as well. The only compelling reason I've heard is that Canvas prints can be hung without framing which is obviously very expensive, especially at larger sizes.
I would note that in the true "fine art" market, which I would define as the kinds of photos the Museum of Modern Art or other major museums would collect, canvas prints are virtually unheard of.
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Customers absolutely LOVE it.
I sell 100 rolls of canvas to every roll of Fine Art paper.
I have exactly the same experience. The art gallery clients I have (including art collectors) highly prefer canvas to fine art paper, photo paper, metal prints and Plexiglas. The former outsells all the others together by 25 times or more. The 2 galleries I sell at are located in a historic World Heritage area, that is in an ambiance that may also influence them towards a more traditional art look. This is also why I'm interested on trying this linen medium.
I mostly sell prints of 24"x36" and larger in art galleries, framed. As I said, people prefer highly-textured canvas in comparison to fine art paper (for my type of landscape photographs: often minimalist winter scenes). Most of the time, they first think it is a painting. One of my two styles of photos, the one that sells the most, blurs the frontier between photography and painting. Art collectors and tourists love it!
Furthermore, it is my experience that clients of prints 12x18 and larger usually hate glasses in front of photographs because of light reflections, heavy weight and risks of breaking. I personally only sell small photos (12x18 and smaller) printed on textured fine art paper framed with anti-reflective UV glass (expensive but worthwhile). The latter sell OK.
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Paper as a substrate is far more stable and if made archival, far superior to cotton canvas and linen. Stretched cotton canvas and linen are highly susceptible to the changing weather. Their expansion and contraction over time will destroy the surface. I cant figure out why photographers want to print on canvas. Paper is so much more a beautiful a surface for the eye to devour.
Peter
Hi Peter, I must say I have a different point of view with regards to the beauty of the photo on a given medium. IMHO, the right choice of medium depends on the subject and the feeling one wants to convey with his photograph. It is an artistic choice first of all (and, I must admit, a sale element as well).
ADDED: I know other landscape photographers who sell much more plexiglass and metal prints than fine art paper and canvas prints. I have not made a geographical study of this, but I would not be surprised to see cultural and regional differences in the tastes of buyers. We see this very well with furniture, home deco styles, etc. FYI, I personally have most of my clients located in Europe (western and scandinavian countries), Central Canada + Alberta and BC, California, Texas, New-England and Dixiland states.
If you sell large and very large prints, canvas often is a better choice (as explained in another of my replies) while also being archival quality.
Regards,
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I would be curious what the answer is to why customers prefer canvas over paper as well. The only compelling reason I've heard is that Canvas prints can be hung without framing which is obviously very expensive, especially at larger sizes.
I would note that in the true "fine art" market, which I would define as the kinds of photos the Museum of Modern Art or other major museums would collect, canvas prints are virtually unheard of.
My clients can have the canvas prints framed or unframed. 90% of the time, they buy the framed one and have it shipped in their countries framed. So, my experience in art galleries is that people prefer to buy canvas prints framed (the other 10% buy canvas wrap or rolled in an expedition tube). I sometimes have to frame a canvas print in order to make it appealing for sale.
Today museums investing in modern photography don't stick to traditional photo paper or fine art paper anymore. They have started to accept mixed media, various long-duration medium as used by the artist, and highly-photoshopped photos.
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I wonder if it's similar to the Hahnemuhle canvas they refuse to import into N. America:
https://www.hahnemuehle.com/en/digital-fineart/fineart-media/canvas-fineart/p/Product/show/6/27.html
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So no definition yet, except expensive?
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So no definition yet, except expensive?
you got my definition in an earlier reply. Any improvement to my answer ? If so, don't hesitate. I'm always interested to learn or read others' opinions. :)
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I wonder if it's similar to the Hahnemuhle canvas they refuse to import into N. America:
https://www.hahnemuehle.com/en/digital-fineart/fineart-media/canvas-fineart/p/Product/show/6/27.html
Seems to be very different: cotton-based (thinner, coarser, ISO9706 not synonym with archival-quality) vs linen-based (thicker, less coarse, archival-certified by independant organization)
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I wonder if it's similar to the Hahnemuhle canvas they refuse to import into N. America:
https://www.hahnemuehle.com/en/digital-fineart/fineart-media/canvas-fineart/p/Product/show/6/27.html
I checked with our Hahnemuhle rep and they told me that it's not available in the US probably because of the price point not being competitive here. It will probably be the same outcome as BC's linen canvas at about $4 per sq/ft.
Hahnemuhle's Canvas Artist canvas isn't just cotton; it's a cotton/poly mix like most other options out there, but on the expensive end unfortunately.
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I checked with our Hahnemuhle rep and they told me that it's not available in the US probably because of the price point not being competitive here. It will probably be the same outcome as BC's linen canvas at about $4 per sq/ft.
Hahnemuhle's Canvas Artist canvas isn't just cotton; it's a cotton/poly mix like most other options out there, but on the expensive end unfortunately.
All Belgian Linen has nearly tripled in price since the start of this year. It's the surface I enjoy painting on and has been for the past thirty years.
Peter
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All Belgian Linen has nearly tripled in price since the start of this year. It's the surface I enjoy painting on and has been for the past thirty years.
Peter
Interesting to know.
I also do art reproduction for a famous artist. She may be very interested in this new media.
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I checked with our Hahnemuhle rep and they told me that it's not available in the US probably because of the price point not being competitive here. It will probably be the same outcome as BC's linen canvas at about $4 per sq/ft.
I see it the other way around, i.e. as an excellent selling point for art collectors as they expect to pay good money for top quality. I would use this to justify an increase in the price of my fine art prints and as a unique characteristic.
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Seems to be very different: cotton-based (thinner, coarser, ISO9706 not synonym with archival-quality) vs linen-based (thicker, less coarse, archival-certified by independant organization)
The texture was what I was pointing out, not what it was made out of. BTW, I called BC and asked if the canvas was as beige as the photo and they said yes. You're not printing on a white surface but a brown one.
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I checked with our Hahnemuhle rep and they told me that it's not available in the US probably because of the price point not being competitive here. It will probably be the same outcome as BC's linen canvas at about $4 per sq/ft.
Hahnemuhle's Canvas Artist canvas isn't just cotton; it's a cotton/poly mix like most other options out there, but on the expensive end unfortunately.
The texture looked very interesting, though, to the point where I am tempted to import a roll just to see what its like. I've often lamented that paper companies offer a variety of matte paper surfaces from ultra smooth to very coarse watercolor but canvas surface variety has been neglected. I usually go for a very smooth canvas but some images cry out for a coarse one.
Maybe itsupplies could convince Hahnemuhle to import a batch for people to sample.
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I’ve been using the Jacquard Belgian Linen (and silks,) coated for inkjet for about 17 years now. It has been one of my favorite mediums. However it is very vulnerable to flaking of the coating and it is does not have a full photo gamut or resolution as typical quality coated inkjet canvas like Breathing Color Lyve. But it has a totally different soft image structure that is tactile and beautiful. It looks expensive, which it is.
The dmax isn’t bad at all and the sharpness is fine for such as surface, but like I said, much more vulnerable to peeling off when a lot of ink is laid down. It is good for making scrolls that hang down from a dowel or bamboo rod. I always spray them with a Hahnemuhle uv coat. They are easy to roll up and transport in a tube and don’t require steaming or ironing to get wrinkles out like silk often does. Jacquard makes the inkjet fabrics for many of these smaller companies.
However I sense this Breathing Color linen product is much more like real artists canvas linen and probably a lot more durable and richer in gamut and sharper. Looking forward to checking it out to find out.
Are you supposed to use their varnish on it?
Thanks for posting,
John
The texture looked very interesting, though, to the point where I am tempted to import a roll just to see what its like. I've often lamented that paper companies offer a variety of matte paper surfaces from ultra smooth to very coarse watercolor but canvas surface variety has been neglected. I usually go for a very smooth canvas but some images cry out for a coarse one.
Maybe itsupplies could convince Hahnemuhle to import a batch for people to sample.
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The texture looked very interesting, though, to the point where I am tempted to import a roll just to see what its like.
I may do the same. It may give a quite distinct look !
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However I sense this Breathing Color linen product is much more like real artists canvas linen and probably a lot more durable and richer in gamut and sharper. Looking forward to checking it out to find out.
Are you supposed to use their varnish on it?
Thanks for posting,
John
Hi John,
Indeed, it seems to be very high quality. There is no indication about the need to varnish the print on their web site. I sent them an email minutes ago.
Yvan
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The texture was what I was pointing out, not what it was made out of. BTW, I called BC and asked if the canvas was as beige as the photo and they said yes. You're not printing on a white surface but a brown one.
I ordered a roll for fun but emailed to cancel the order when I read this. However I got emails from 2 of their reps saying the surface coating is white so I kept the order.
"The print side surface is white, the back is the natural light brownish color.".
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I ordered a roll for fun but emailed to cancel the order when I read this. However I got emails from 2 of their reps saying the surface coating is white so I kept the order.
"The print side surface is white, the back is the natural light brownish color.".
That's good to know, and not what they told me on the phone. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
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"The print side surface is white, the back is the natural light brownish color.".
That's what we see on their photo on the product page.
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If the print side is white it must be coated with white pigment as a ground in addition to the ink receptor coating. Painters who paint on linen canvas usually prime it with titanium white so that’s normal. But if it’s primed like that I’m not sure the appearance will be much different than cotton primed canvas. The reason painters use linen is because it’s a stronger fiber that can last hundreds of years longer. In inkjet the reason I used the Jacquard Belgian Linen was the texture was totally different and very organic and unique.
I guess I’ll see when I order a sample.
I ordered a roll for fun but emailed to cancel the order when I read this. However I got emails from 2 of their reps saying the surface coating is white so I kept the order.
"The print side surface is white, the back is the natural light brownish color.".
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If the print side is white it must be coated with white pigment as a ground in addition to the ink receptor coating. Painters who paint on linen canvas usually prime it with titanium white so that’s normal. But if it’s primed like that I’m not sure the appearance will be much different than cotton primed canvas. The reason painters use linen is because it’s a stronger fiber that can last hundreds of years longer. In inkjet the reason I used the Jacquard Belgian Linen was the texture was totally different and very organic and unique.
I guess I’ll see when I order a sample.
Good point! It is truly a stronger fiber based on the specs. The texture seems similar to other mid-to-high textured cotton-based canvas.
I also received an answer from BC about varnishing. It is always better to use their varnish (I use Timeless) than not using varnish (except for a very few canvas made to be used without varnish). It can be sprayed or rolled. It can be mat, satin or glossy varnish.
Nevertheless, it is probable it will be used without varnish by many according to BC, and only time will say if it is OK.
I will order one roll for testing myself.
Yvan