Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: walter.sk on March 17, 2019, 09:28:01 pm
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I've never used Elements, only Photoshop and Lightroom. I run the competitions in a photo club and ask people to submit jpegs for digital projection in 8-bit color with sRGB as the color space. A number of images come in untagged or as Adobe RGB. After I mentioned this at the last competition I got a request from an Elements 15 user who said that his files get a Display P3 designation in Elements. When I looked at his submitted jpegs, they were untagged. What is the way, using Elements, to convert a file from Element's working space to sRGB?
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Untagged RGB is mystery meat; no way to know the color space but the best guess is sRGB.
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop-elements/using/setting-color-management.html
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We're running a contest with digital display. We didn't mention color space or bits. Does it matter or will the projector handle whatever?
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We're running a contest with digital display. We didn't mention color space or bits. Does it matter or will the projector handle whatever?
Yes it matter as does the application sending the data to the projector.
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Andrew, We only tell people to submit jpegs, any size. What should we tell them to submit? (I don;t know the projector model they'll be using. I know the judges use a laptop with the submitted photo files to connect to the projector. Before the contest starts, they do some sort of an display adjustment with the ambient light turned down to adjust the projector's output).
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Andrew, We only tell people to submit jpegs, any size. What should we tell them to submit? (I don;t know the projector model they'll be using. I know the judges use a laptop with the submitted photo files to connect to the projector. Before the contest starts, they do some sort of an display adjustment with the ambient light turned down to adjust the projector's output).
The projector is moot, this isn't any different than using a display. What application is being used to access the JEPGs and is it ICC (color management) aware? If so, and it should be, then the images need to be in a tagged color space. At the very least, sRGB.
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OK We'll tell people to submit in sRGB which they're probably doing anyway. These "senior" photographers are mainly amateurs. There might be a few who shoot in pro photo, adobe, or whatever. But they should know to export from PS in sRGB. I'll remind them. Thanks.
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Untagged RGB is mystery meat; no way to know the color space but the best guess is sRGB.
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop-elements/using/setting-color-management.html
Thanks for the link, Andrew. Just what the doctor ordered.
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The projector is moot, this isn't any different than using a display. What application is being used to access the JEPGs and is it ICC (color management) aware? If so, and it should be, then the images need to be in a tagged color space. At the very least, sRGB.
I checked with the guy handling this. He says that he just uses the laptop operating system, no special software.
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I checked with the guy handling this. He says that he just uses the laptop operating system, no special software.
But he IS using software and that's rather important.
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But he IS using software and that's rather important.
Will the laptop operating system software, then, take care of the color management issue as far displaying it correctly thru the projector? Or should we just tell the participants to submit only jpegs with sRGB.
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Will the laptop operating system software, then, take care of the color management issue as far displaying it correctly thru the projector?
How would I know? You've told us NOTHING about the OS or the software.
Or should we just tell the participants to submit only jpegs with sRGB.
Without color management, sRGB is a meaningless concept!
sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2
In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:
When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices
How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check
The downsides of an all sRGB workflow
sRGB's color gamut vs. "professional" output devices
The future of sRGB and wide gamut display technology
Photo print labs that demand sRGB for output
High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGBMythsPart2.mp4
Low resolution on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvVUL1gWVs
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I watched your video. Thanks. So since I don;t know what they're using as far as the computer and projector and whether any of it is color managed, I'll tell everyone to submit sRGB.
As an aside, I shoot in RAW + jpeg. The camera has a color gamut choice: AdobeRGB or sRGB. From what you said on the video, I should shoot in Adobe RGB because of its wider color gamut. Once processed in Lightroom, I can output sRGB for the web and other types of display equipment. Would I then use Adobe RGB or the print processor's color space when outputting for printing? I'm confused on this point.
ANother question: If you select AdobeRGB in a camera that also has sRGB as a selection, when shooting RAW + jpeg, what capture gamut is each of the two files?
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ANother question: If you select AdobeRGB in a camera that also has sRGB as a selection, when shooting RAW + jpeg, what capture gamut is each of the two files?
Doesn't affect the raw whatsoever. Raw is raw. It only affects the JPEG. And when you shoot raw+JPEG, one isn't ideally exposed; the raw. So not such a good idea.
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Doesn't affect the raw whatsoever. Raw is raw. It only affects the JPEG. And when you shoot raw+JPEG, one isn't ideally exposed; the raw. So not such a good idea.
Why? Are you saying I should only shoot RAW?
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Why? Are you saying I should only shoot RAW?
One or the other IF you wish to ideally expose for the data.
https://luminous-landscape.com/the-optimum-digital-exposure/
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I think the discussion started about projecting digital images at a camera club. The premise was jpegs would be submitted and the question was about requiring a color space (sRGbB, aRGB, etc) and what to do with ‘untagged’.
Alan Klein mentioned a laptop. If the laptop was a PC (I’m lost about Macs), free software such as Irfanview and Faststone are “color aware” and will recognized the jpeg color space and convert to the color space of the monitor profile. I believe (not sure) if it is ‘untagged’, they will assume sRGB.
The biggest problem is the projector. I have seen really bad projection setups, better ones, but never good ones (I'm sure some professional setups do, but I have never seen them and have seen some people really try).
As I understand it (limited knowledge admitted), projectors are really difficult to profile properly. Then, most laptops (at least PCs) do not usually have graphic adapters which can support two profiles (projector/2nd monitor and built in monitor) and most free software is not built to support dual output. At best, the user can set the display profile to the one for the projector, but rarely do this as the monitor screen will then be off.
Possibly Andrew can provide advice to Alan and the OP on what best software to use how best to set up a projector on a laptop (when provided with what hardware and OS is used).
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Thanks John: The club has done this before for competitions. Color spaces for the image files were never specified, only jpegs were called for. In past contests, I hadn't noticed anything regarding colors that are that out of whack. But then again, unless you can compare to the original, it's hard to say. My own submittals in sRGB looked ok although the projection was a little too dark. They did a light output adjustment against ambient lighting before the contest began to calibrate the projector. It still was too dark in my opinion. Having said that, I thought there might be a good suggestion regarding this issue but it seems there are too many variables. When I asked the question about color spaces, etc. to the people handling the camera and judge, they didn't even know what I was talking about. Heck, I don't know what I'm talking about.
In any case, the laptop has a "contest" program used for doing such photo competitions. I don;t know the name of it. It keeps track of the judge's scores, totals scores, selects first second and third winners etc. etc. It cycles through the pictures submitted for the contest. So I imagine it's this program that may handle the color output to the projector. But who knows? No one else in the competition seems concerned except me or knowledgeable to care. I'll try to get the name of the software they're using. Maybe that will help get an answer. Thanks everyone for your input.
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Single DLP chip projectors suck eggs for images. See for yourself:
https://colorlightoutput.com (https://colorlightoutput.com)
https://colorlightoutput.com/videos/Color-brightness-technical-video.mp4
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Single DLP chip projectors suck eggs for images. See for yourself:
https://colorlightoutput.com (https://colorlightoutput.com)
https://colorlightoutput.com/videos/Color-brightness-technical-video.mp4
Wow! That video explains why single DLP projectors have such crappy gamuts. I had no idea they added white (clear actually) rotating segments to boost the max white illuminance. That's going to shrink the gamut of the more luminous colors a lot. Well inside sRGB for the brighter colors.
The free downloadable standard has a lot of detail for measuring important metrics of displays as well. Actually, it concentrates on displays but includes relevant projector and reflector screen metrics as well.
Thanks for posting Andrew.
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Single DLP chip projectors suck eggs for images. See for yourself:
https://colorlightoutput.com (https://colorlightoutput.com)
https://colorlightoutput.com/videos/Color-brightness-technical-video.mp4
While interesting, how does this help the question asked?
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While interesting, how does this help the question asked?
It CLEARLY address the comment about the projector being too dark. That is IF you actually watch the video!
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Wow! That video explains why single DLP projectors have such crappy gamuts.
Not all, just single chip DLPs. Multiple units are VERY expensive and don't suffer the same limitations. They are designed for high end movie projector systems and cost big bucks. But for the presentation market, they suck color wise. Some don't even have a white LED segment! The white segment is just to raise the spec for lumens that most uneducated consumers think is the ultimate spec for buying a projector. And for black text on a white background, that's true. For color images? Not at all a useful spec. Hence Color Light Output. Good luck finding a DLP using that spec, it doesn't make their products look so good (because for images, they are not).
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It CLEARLY address the comment about the projector being too dark. That is IF you actually watch the video!
So YOU KNOW it was a single DLP unit?
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So YOU KNOW it was a single DLP unit?
Want to place a bet it is?
By your own admission, there's a lot about this technology you don't know:
The biggest problem is the projector. I have seen really bad projection setups, better ones, but never good ones (I'm sure some professional setups do, but I have never seen them and have seen some people really try).
Find an Epson 3 chip LCD!
As I understand it (limited knowledge admitted), projectors are really difficult to profile properly.
Not so. I've profiled lots of them with an i1 Beamer.
Then, most laptops (at least PCs) do not usually have graphic adapters which can support two profiles (projector/2nd monitor and built in monitor) and most free software is not built to support dual output.
True, but doesn't affect the profiled projector.
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Want to place a bet it is?
By your own admission, there's a lot about this technology you don't know:Find an Epson 3 chip LCD!
Not so. I've profiled lots of them with an i1 Beamer.
True, but doesn't affect the profiled projector.
So you are just guessing....which you frequently chastised others over 😀
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The real point, Andrew, is they asked for assistance, which you did not seem to wish to provide. I am sure all that you said was “right”. Just not helpful.
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So you are just guessing....which you frequently chastised others over 😀
I'm not guessing it's too dark; I was told so.
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The real point, Andrew, is they asked for assistance, which you did not seem to wish to provide.
I've provided "them" plenty; you?
I am sure all that you said was “right”.
Indeed, it was.
Just not helpful
To you perhaps; speak for yourself, not others. The topic was: Color Space and Photoshop Elements and this is what I was told by the OP after posting on that subject:
Thanks for the link, Andrew. Just what the doctor ordered.
I think the discussion started about projecting digital images at a camera club.
No, it wasn't. Try reading the OP's question, the sentence ending with this symbol: ?
I've never used Elements, only Photoshop and Lightroom. I run the competitions in a photo club and ask people to submit jpegs for digital projection in 8-bit color with sRGB as the color space. A number of images come in untagged or as Adobe RGB. After I mentioned this at the last competition I got a request from an Elements 15 user who said that his files get a Display P3 designation in Elements. When I looked at his submitted jpegs, they were untagged. What is the way, using Elements, to convert a file from Element's working space to sRGB?
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I had no idea they added white (clear actually) rotating segments to boost the max white illuminance. That's going to shrink the gamut of the more luminous colors a lot. Well inside sRGB for the brighter colors.
And this idea is currently in re-run :- the "WOLED/WRGB" TV's that are all the rage at the moment have white LED per pixel to boost the HDR brightness, since OLED maximum output isn't high from a HDR perspective. If the white is just reserved for bright specular pixels, the effect won't be too awful, but given the mess that HDR encoding standards are with no clear demarcation between specular and non-specular content, and the low priority color accuracy has with TV manufacturers, I have my doubts about such displays.
[ There is confusion about the nomenclature - some "OLED" displays use a "white" OLEDs with RGB or RGBW filters over them. Hard to figure out how that can be efficient, but it seems to be about evening out the color change with aging - this way all the pixels age evenly at the fastest possible rate :-) ]
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And this idea is currently in re-run :- the "WOLED/WRGB" TV's that are all the rage at the moment have white LED per pixel to boost the HDR brightness, since OLED maximum output isn't high from a HDR perspective. If the white is just reserved for bright specular pixels, the effect won't be too awful, but given the mess that HDR encoding standards are with no clear demarcation between specular and non-specular content, and the low priority color accuracy has with TV manufacturers, I have my doubts about such displays.
[ There is confusion about the nomenclature - some "OLED" displays use a "white" OLEDs with RGB or RGBW filters over them. Hard to figure out how that can be efficient, but it seems to be about evening out the color change with aging - this way all the pixels age evenly at the fastest possible rate :-) ]
Fascinating Graeme! I had no idea they were doing this but I can see the competitive pressure at work. Kinda like gaming CRI with it's limited spectral set but worse.
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I found out the projector is a Epson powerlite 1260. It's connected to the laptop running Window's Explorer Slideshow view.
Any recommendation regarding what the final photos should be in? The projector seems pretty poor.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_1260.htm
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I found out the projector is a Epson powerlite 1260. It's connected to the laptop running Window's Explorer Slideshow view.
Any recommendation regarding what the final photos should be in? The projector seems pretty poor.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_1260.htm
The big question is; is Windows Explorer Slideshow color managed? If so what does it assumes for untagged images?
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Windows Explorer Slideshow is not color managed, at least on my W10 Pro system. I created a folder with 4 images (see attached), three with profiles (ProPhoto, Adobe1998, sRGB) and one with no profile (started out with sRGB). Windows Explorer rendered the thumbnails correctly, appeared to assume sRGB on the no profile image, and Windows Photos also correctly rendered the images. Slideshow appeared to treat all images as if they were sRGB, e.g. the ProPhoto image came out close to gray.
Richard Southworth
Added by edit - I should say, Windows Explorer appears to correctly convert all images to sRGB, then displays them with no color space conversion to the monitor. On my wide gamut display the images are all shown as over saturated, as is typical on a W10 system. Same with Photos. Slideshow makes no attempt at all.