Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: dgberg on March 08, 2019, 11:27:24 am
-
Shot several artwork images with off white borders and when in Lightrooms print module they turn gray as well as print gray as in the shown picture.
Sony a7rII with custom profile.
I reset all my sync settings and am back to the straight raw shot and the borders look natural.
Click the print module and they go gray.
Any ideas?
-
Looks to me that somehow or other your profiling isn't working properly; I suspect this because the Print Preview shows the image without softproofing, and softproofing is supposed to show the impact of the profile. Presumably the profile provides for the correct gray tone of those borders. You're an experienced guy - presumably you've double-checked all your LR print and develop settings to make sure your colour management set-up is correctly specified?
-
Going over it again now. The only thing I have found so far is when I drag the exposure up a full stop the borders are correct but everything else is blown. Digging a little more.
Thanks Mark.
-
When you are in the Develop Module, do you have softproof active when you view the photo? If the softproof is active and the borders and exposure both look right, but in the Print module where the view is not softproofed you get the grey effect and that is what prints, it really suggests profile information isn't getting through the chain; I would not expect exposure settings to be part of the issue.
-
is it a V4 profile?
-
V4 profiles should work fine. I doubt that's the issue.
-
Check the rendering intent and white point of the source profile (there 'may' be an embedded one)
-
New xrite profile with new white balance. Softproof on borders look good until going to Print Module then they turn gray. The only way to get borders white in Print Module is drag whites and highlights to 60 and drag down exposure a tad. Then the borders stay white.
Mac pro and Macbook Pro give same results.
-
To nail down whether it is the ICC profiling workflow at fault, could you try printing this with Printer Manages Color but undo those adjustments of Whites and Highlights, keeping the same Media Type specification? If it prints properly you have added evidence the problem could well be with print settings in the profiled workflow.
-
Will do.
-
The print module isn't soft proofing and isn't really showing anything but an sRGB JPEG preview. You need to soft proof properly in Develop.
You may have an issue with the output profile IF whites are actually printing gray, like a scum dot bug. Or an output profile built with the V4 spec not behaving well. You'd see this if you could print using an Absolute Colorimetric intent but that's not possible in LR.
Where did the paper profile come from? DO NOT build one with V4 spec if you're doing this profile creation.
-
That did not work. Looked great in Develop, switched to Print Module and the edges turn gray in the print preview before printing. Printed gray.
-
That did not work. Looked great in Develop, switched to Print Module and the edges turn gray in the print preview before printing. Printed gray.
Doesn't matter what the preview looks like in Print Module. It does on the print. It's the profile or some printer settings. Try making a new print template totally from scratch resetting every printing parameter in both LR and the print driver. And tell us what kind of printer it is.
Why do you have LR set for Managed by Printer???
-
Mark suggested I try printing with no profile.
I understand what you are saying but it prints exactly what the print preview shows.
Click the print module and the border changes to gray and prints exactly that way.
Change the highlights and whites above 50+, click print module and it shows a white border and prints a white border.
Epson 3880, I have a half dozen others printers to try. Seems like the issue arises after actuating PM.
Will try your suggestion.
-
What paper and what Media Type setting in the driver?
-
Check to make sure your white borders are RGB 255. if they aren't then they will print gray in Rel Col or Perc. This is common in repro work. The whites are typically 220 ish. Normally in repro work you then print with Abs. Col. Lightroom doesn't have that option.
-
I had checked them before and they were not here 255, 211ish.
Whatever is happening is when I push to activate the Print module. Whatever it shows in print preview is what is printing and it is changing from a natural off white to a deep gray with the selection of Print Module.
Paper is Canson Etching Rag, sheet 13x19 manual rear. Printed hundreds of these if not more. (But no art reproductions)
-
I had checked them before and they were not here 255, 211ish.
Well there you go, they are not white/paper white.
-
Rodney, did you look at the pictures they are going from a off white/very light gray to a very medium gray.
I guess the best I call do is lighten them up a little?
-
Can you try a print on your HP Z3200 Dan? Just a test of paper and profile...
-
Andrew - I recommended that Dan try Printer Manages Color only for diagnostic reasons - to see whether the mismatch was coming from an ICC profiling issue or elsewhere.
Dan - when you said above "That did not work" - were you referring to the use of Printer Manages Color? I assumed so. If so, that means the problem is not with the profile or the Rendering Intent. Something else is going on. That's when I got interested in paper and Media Type. You are using Canson Etching Rag in an Epson printer. You didn't tell me what Epson Media Type you are using for that paper. What is it? The wrong Media Type could be setting the White Point wrong for the paper whether you are printing with ICC colour management of printer colour management.
-
Rodney, did you look at the pictures they are going from a off white/very light gray to a very medium gray.
I guess the best I call do is lighten them up a little?
No, that's a hack. We need to get to the actual root of the issue. Like LR settings or the profile.
-
Andrew - I recommended that Dan try Printer Manages Color only for diagnostic reasons - to see whether the mismatch was coming from an ICC profiling issue or elsewhere.
Dan - when you said above "That did not work" - were you referring to the use of Printer Manages Color? I assumed so. If so, that means the problem is not with the profile or the Rendering Intent. Something else is going on. That's when I got interested in paper and Media Type. You are using Canson Etching Rag in an Epson printer. You didn't tell me what Epson Media Type you are using for that paper. What is it? The wrong Media Type could be setting the White Point wrong for the paper whether you are printing with ICC colour management of printer colour management.
Still printed the gray edge in Printer Manages Color.
Media type is Velvet Fint Art.
What I am trying to wrap my mind around is that the edge turns dark gray as soon as you click on the print module and shows the dark gray border in print preview.
So this is before any final choices are made in the print module.
Same result in Photo Shop CC.
-
Looks like I have found the issue.
Went back and shot several of the images at 1 and 2 stops brighter. That turns the muddy darker gray border to a light gray.
That photographed edge now has a RGB value of 224/202/208.
Took the image into Photoshop, new adjustment layer, selective color. Selected white and took the black from 0 to -100.
The numbers are now 242/227/231 which pretty much matches the actual edge color.
Except now the overall exposure of the image is pretty over exposed so back in and adjust a little and it prints a real soft nice realistic looking edge now.
25 more to go. Now the fun will be getting all those edges pretty close to the same color which shouldn't be that difficult.
I guess I should have know earlier it was a studio issue and not software/printing.
Not a professional studio guy, just do some for friends in the local art network.
Pushing that 70 number pretty hard and still learning, a good thing.
Thanks to all that responded.
-
Have you checked the White Balance for the lighting you are using? If you have a Color Checker Passport you can hang it next to the image you are copying and then use it to get an accurate white balance. You can also check individual colors as well this way. I've not done a lot of art repro but when I've done some, that's my approach.
-
Why are you printing a border instead of cropping the image to the art work itself?
-
Reproduction work is normally done with a scene referred image (colorimetric capture) and printed using Abs. Col. on a printer/media where the repro'ed work is within gamut. Here's some links that address some of the issues:
http://www.color.org/scene-referred.xalter
https://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/dcamprof.html
http://www.lumariver.com/lrpd-manual/#icc_repro
-
Yes custom white balance and profile.
That wasn’t it. as stated slightly under exposed image caused the issue.
All good now.
This is a project between a half dozen artists spread through out the country.
The blank pages started with my artist friend here in Reading, Pa. and we’re sent
to each artist to add something to the collage. There is no real defined border on the irregular edge of these pages so I was asked to leave most of the border intact. Probably the first time ever that I have been asked to keep a light border.
Part of the issue for sure.
Thanks Doug
-
I'm not sure if I'm understanding you right....so if I'm not sorry. But what is probably going on is.....If your photographing a boarder that is plane paper it's still picking up the paper color which for sure isn't 255. You need it to be 255 so your printer doesn't put down any ink....hence new boarder color is what ever the paper color the paper is you are printing on. You are trying to reproduce the paper color of the boarder with your printer.....which is probably possible but you will chase it around forever. It most often tends to make it neutral gray, yes a color balance problem....but one that is really hard to correct. It's best for any plane paper color in your photograph to be changed to 255 so on your reproduction print it is 255 and your printer lays down no ink.... so it takes on the color of the new paper.
If I misunderstood your problem sorry and good luck.
-
Hi Dan,"211ish" looks likes a very light gray to me.
-
The artists paper is a very light gray but was printing a much darker gray.
Per the above posts it is pretty well sorted out. I agree very difficult to sort out. I made multiple profiles with multiple custom white balance settings and finally got the border to a soft gray somewhat close to the supplied artwork. Someone that does this every day would have sorted it out hours ago but as a primary wide format printer/ framer it took me abit longer.
-
I'm not sure if I'm understanding you right....so if I'm not sorry. But what is probably going on is.....If your photographing a boarder that is plane paper it's still picking up the paper color which for sure isn't 255. You need it to be 255 so your printer doesn't put down any ink....hence new boarder color is what ever the paper color the paper is you are printing on. You are trying to reproduce the paper color of the boarder with your printer.....which is probably possible but you will chase it around forever. It most often tends to make it neutral gray, yes a color balance problem....but one that is really hard to correct. It's best for any plane paper color in your photograph to be changed to 255 so on your reproduction print it is 255 and your printer lays down no ink.... so it takes on the color of the new paper.
If I misunderstood your problem sorry and good luck.
This is what many prepress people do every day when making so called "hard proofs." The target paper white is re-created on proof paper. And using Abs. Col. does the job without much effort. Very similar for repro work. If your original has a white point (unpainted or border) of, say, Lab=93,1,2 then your captured image should also have the same or very close Lab value in the same places. Printing it using Abs Col creates a very close duplicate. With the proper setup, repro work is much easier doing it this way.
-
Very good info Doug, must give it a try.
Thanks
-
Reproduction work is normally done with a scene referred image (colorimetric capture) and printed using Abs. Col. on a printer/media where the repro'ed work is within gamut. Here's some links that address some of the issues:
http://www.color.org/scene-referred.xalter
https://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/dcamprof.html
http://www.lumariver.com/lrpd-manual/#icc_repro
I often printed repro work in abs color. Keeping the file in gamut and not blowing out the highlights is critical.
-
The artists paper is a very light gray but was printing a much darker gray.
Per the above posts it is pretty well sorted out. I agree very difficult to sort out. I made multiple profiles with multiple custom white balance settings and finally got the border to a soft gray somewhat close to the supplied artwork. Someone that does this every day would have sorted it out hours ago but as a primary wide format printer/ framer it took me abit longer.
I went through a learning path too for tasks like that. One of the things I do is having one and the same offset paper on the copy table underneath the original and adjust the manual shutter speed that it always gives the same raw values for that paper compared to similar jobs in the past. White base doen do it. Camera profile not to old due to lamps aging. One take with the Color Checker that is proof printed too. One take of the offset paper only for flat field compensation with Cornerfix. Usually at least one to two colors per original still have to be edited after the first proofprints. Paper color usually is alright.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots