Post by: nemophoto on February 12, 2019, 04:19:31 pm
I borrowed the EOS R from Canon CPS and used it for six days of a week-long catalog/ad shoot in Miami a couple of weeks ago, so this is "real world" use, not just plinking in my back fields. One day was a scout day, five days were the actual shoot (with this camera -- I had to return it before the shoot was finished). Three of those days the R was intermixed with my 1Dx and 5Ds on location, depending upon the shot, and two days it was used exclusively tethered with Capture One in a studio setting. So, these are my perspectives shooting what I would normally shoot, in the settings in which I would normal shoot with Canon's mirroless camera.
WHAT I LIKE
- Fast focusing, regardless of lens! I have a lot of Canon lenses, but also three Sigma Art lenses: 50, 85 & 135. All the Sigma focused flawlessly shooting, usually, between 2.8 and 4.
- I love being able to use the viewfinder for video. This client has me shoot short video clips which they edit for social media. For video, there is a Digital IS mode which worked fairly well hand holding the Sigma 50. I also used a DJI Ronin gimbal occasionally with the camera which worked well and plugged directly into the camera's USB-C, though I found the gimbal a little clumsy at times.
- Camera is solidly built. It actually feels more solid than my 5Ds -- in a way like a compact 1Dx.
- The R is not stupidly small. Just because you can make a camera in a smaller form factor doesn't mean you should. In fact, give me an R that is based on the 1Dx and I'll be happier.
-Image quality is excellent. Yes, there are those out there who will whine "but it doesn't have the dynamic range of a Sony". Who cares? For my shooting (both fashion and landscape for my personal work), I have NEVER encountered a situation where I wish I had more dynamic range.
-Face detection was very good.
-The focus point changed color according to the mode. One-shot was green, Servo was blue. Loved having that bit of extra confirmation. In fact, the Servo mode was so fast and accurate, I often shot with that rather than One-shot.
-The EF-to-R adapter I used worked flawlessly. (I did not use any R lenses. I have 8 EF lenses and in the real world I would not get rid of those anytime soon.)
-The EVF shows a relatively accurate view of your exposure, though not as good as the back LCD when you review a shot.
- Focus points cover nearly the entire frame.
WHAT I DISLIKE or HATE
- It's mirrorless. I have a love/hate with mirrorless, though I have to admit, after having the camera for a week in a real shoot situation, I grew to like it more than I thought.
-If you are a long-time Canon user, the ergonomics are pretty unintuitive. In fact, I believe strongly they should design the next R model with a nod to the 1Dx.
-No Thumbdial. This really slowed me down at times. I never used or programmed the Multi-Function Bar. When changing the focus point, it takes too long with out the joystick or the thumbdial and I prefer being able to do that with my eye to the viewfinder, not looking at the rear LCD. In fact, I usually used the rear LCD with the menu interface (f-stop, shutter, ISO, etc.) and not as live view. .
- Too many menu driven options, not enough dedicated buttons. There should be AT LEAST buttons for ISO, WB, Drive, and focus mode. Take a look at the new Olympus OM-D E-M1X. Now THAT is mirrorless camera designed, ergonomically, for a pro. Not only is the vertical grip built-in (a la 1Dx), it has multiple buttons for quick selection. Canon, Nikon & Sony should pay attention. And with the M1X grip, it's better sealed, more versatile and more comfortable to hold. One should not have to buy a separate battery grip -- my main complaint with the 5Ds.
- Battery life. This falls under one the reasons I hate mirrorless. In my days in the studio where it was my only camera, I changed the battery three times. The 5D4 without grip (I've used it for the same studio shooting a number of times, both from lensrentals.com and CPS) will last almost an entire day on one battery. If you were to buy the EOS R, I would say not to hesitate to buy the battery grip. Which goes back to why Canon should build it in like the M1X.
-No depth of field preview (at least that I could find).
- The EVF, for some reason, darkens if you put a transmitter on top. I shoot in manual mode almost 100% of the time when I shoot fashion. If I am shooting available light or with reflectors, no problem. However if I want to use my Elinchrom ELB500 for a small pop of fill, the EVF darkens by about a stop or so. Even though my exposure is dialed in manually, the EVF fights with me. The moment I turned the transmitter off, the viewfinder brightened.
- When I shot in the studio, I turned Exposure Simulation (or whatever it was called) off. That's where the EVF goes crazy. Rather than maintaining a consistent brightness, it was constantly going up and down, depending upon where I focused (usually the face). Also, white balance in the EVF is off, depending upon the ambient or model lights. I use Custom WB almost exclusively. The strobes were daylight balanced essentially however the EVF would render skin tones overly warm. If you turn off Exposure Simulation, the color balance in the finder should also be independent of your setting and give you a neutral balance.
-Viewfinder lag. While I figured a way to keep from loosing my view for too long (always keep shutter partially depressed) the delay can be jarring when trying to shoot movement. During my studio days, one of the models I shoot regularly is a great mover. I usually crank out shots at about 1 second per frame -- I use smaller fast recycling strobes. At first I was missing shots because the anticipation and then distraction of the frames was tough to deal with. However, after about 1/2 I'd gotten used to how to anticipate what she was going to do as well as the delay in the finder refresh.
OVERALL THOUGHTS
While a week living with the EOS R didn't make me want to rush and buy one immediately, I can say "Never Say Never" (a little homage to James Bond). I was especially thrilled with the camera for video (not that I shoot a lot, so it was great for my purposes). My greatest dislike was the viewfinder darkening when using a strobe transmitter and syncing an HSS strobe outside. That is still an odd occurrence, though one that Canon could probably fix with firmware. I have been a Canon user for 38-years. I know NOT to expect the pinnacle with the first iteration of anything. The D30 came before the 1D. The EOS 630/650 came before the EOS-1. The AE-1 came before the A-1. So, perhaps the next camera will be the 1Dx Pro-like camera. I'm not in the least sorry I used it for the week. I did find it massively frustrating to have so many options be menu driven or touch-screen versus a dedicated control. Would I buy one? Maybe. Maybe not. A 5D4 may be more suitable for a third body. (I still love my 1Dx and 5Ds.) But, it sure did feel nice in the hands and generally did what was needed, if not in an occasionally irritating manner.
Post by: tcphoto1 on February 13, 2019, 09:01:32 am
Post by: nemophoto on February 13, 2019, 10:02:42 am
A friend of mine jumped from Canon to Sony several years ago because he wanted to lighten his load. But he laments the Sony nowhere nearly as robust as the 1Dx and he misses that. He also has large hands so the only way he can use a Sony is with a grip. He confided that, if he still shot the way he did a number of years ago, he’d still use Canon. I think the 5D4 is a nice camera. I’ve never gotten to the point of buying, but continue to rent it periodically. (Canon only allows you to “borrow” the camera twice — even for Platinum CPS — and I went through that long ago. And the loaner periods rarely cover the length of a shoot.)
I felt the EOS R had a nice... “Canon” feel to it. It feels robust. My friend’s Sony always felt like a toy in my hands or like I was using a Canon M5 or something. Though I hated the ergonomic controls of the R, I liked the feel and balance. Even using the Sigma 85 & 135 (honking big and heavy pieces of glass), the R didn’t feel overwhelmed. The files from the camera are VERY nice — basically what I get from the 5D4. On the same shoot I also rented a 5D4, but ended up using only a handful of times since I wanted to really run the R through it’s paces.
The rumor mill has it that rather than updating the 5Ds, they are slapping an ultra hi-res sensor in an R body. Pity. I’d like to see it in a 1Dx.
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Post by: EricWHiss on February 21, 2019, 11:44:47 pm
Post by: nemophoto on February 22, 2019, 11:27:39 am
Post by: Peter McLennan on February 22, 2019, 12:02:24 pm
Post by: Rado on February 22, 2019, 01:11:58 pm
Post by: Kirk_C on February 22, 2019, 11:56:48 pm
A friend of mine jumped from Canon to Sony several years ago because he wanted to lighten his load. But he laments the Sony nowhere nearly as robust as the 1Dx and he misses that. ... I think the 5D4 is a nice camera. I’ve never gotten to the point of buying, but continue to rent it periodically. ...
The files from the camera are VERY nice — basically what I get from the 5D4. On the same shoot I also rented a 5D4, but ended up using only a handful of times since I wanted to really run the R through it’s paces.
The rumor mill has it that rather than updating the 5Ds, they are slapping an ultra hi-res sensor in an R body. Pity. I’d like to see it in a 1Dx.
No further 5D development right now, if ever, but there is a 1DX III coming by the end of the year (I know there are prototypes in the field). It's demand in the video market is still strong enough plus it's as close as they get to an A9 competitor. 2020 Olympics are coming and the Pro R can't possibly be released and adopted in time so 1DX III may very well be the last of the DSLR Canon's.
I tested the R and it felt like a pro-sumer camera. Nice images but the camera is stop-gap and there's no clear timeline for the Pro model. Lenses are awesome but freakin' huge.
I bought a third 5D4 last week. Clients love the images, minimal post for me, work will pay for it easily.
Post by: nemophoto on February 23, 2019, 02:26:32 pm
I actually liked the EOS R in terms of its feel and handling (though not ergonomic s and lack of dedicated buttons et al). I though it felt a lot more solid than my friend’s Sony. After all these years if using Canon, I like the rounder look/feel than Sony’s and now Nikon’s mirrorless.
I see the R as the initial foray into mirrorless, not the ultimate. I have owned and used Canon since 1980. They always experiment with things on lower end cameras before going whole hog on pro bodies. I guess I’ll wait to see what comes down the pike — though I lament the DSLR passing, for better or worse. I still dislike the feeling of looking at things through a mini TV screen rather than through a true “live view” finder. I’ll be using the R on another extended shoot in a few weeks. I’ll see if I feel any differently. The one huge plus: super fast & accurate focusing, regardless of lens.
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Post by: Dan Wells on February 24, 2019, 01:48:28 pm
More seriously than the alphabet soup, though, Canon has a great set of lenses waiting for a pro camera...
Post by: Kirk_C on February 25, 2019, 11:16:09 pm
Canon has a great set of lenses waiting for a pro camera...
Absolutely true and exactly why I'll wait and see what the rest of 2019 brings. Sigma, Canon, Leica and Hasselblad all have new cameras in development that will at least be announced if not released this year. If ever there was a time to wait this is it, IMHO. If the R works for you now that's great too.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 03, 2019, 11:29:18 pm
Absolutely true and exactly why I'll wait and see what the rest of 2019 brings. Sigma, Canon, Leica and Hasselblad all have new cameras in development that will at least be announced if not released this year. If ever there was a time to wait this is it, IMHO. If the R works for you now that's great too.
Yes, that is very true.
Now, Sony has been moving faster than Canon for years now, and I am not sure they are going to slow down. Odds are the the gap increases further instead of decreasing.
The Sony are not perfect, but I believe that it is a lot easier to fix some ergonomics aspects or physical ruggedness than it is to establish core technologies, such as sensor, AF,... The only fundamental shortcoming of the E system is IMHO the size of the mount, but we have seen that Sony is able to release excellent lenses nonetheless. Perhaps not 100% as good as Canon or Nikon, but still more than good enough for most jobs.
Future will tell.
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: hogloff on March 04, 2019, 02:10:49 pm
Yes, that is very true.
Now, Sony has been moving faster than Canon for years now, and I am not sure they are going to slow down. Odds are the the gap increases further instead of decreasing.
The Sony are not perfect, but I believe that it is a lot easier to fix some ergonomics aspects or physical ruggedness than it is to establish core technologies, such as sensor, AF,... The only fundamental shortcoming of the E system is IMHO the size of the mount, but we have seen that Sony is able to release excellent lenses nonetheless. Perhaps not 100% as good as Canon or Nikon, but still more than good enough for most jobs.
Future will tell.
Cheers,
Bernard
By all accounts Sony's latest lens releases ( 400 2.8, 24 1.4, 135 1.8 ) are all class leading in both amazing image quality coupled with light lenses. I see zero issues with Sony's mount if they can deliver such lenses.
Post by: scooby70 on March 04, 2019, 02:37:20 pm
I'd be interested if someone can prove that it's too small rather than just parrot what's already been said without proof by the competition.
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on March 04, 2019, 03:27:57 pm
The only fundamental shortcoming of the E system is IMHO the size of the mount, but we have seen that Sony is able to release excellent lenses nonetheless. Perhaps not 100% as good as Canon or Nikon, but still more than good enough for most jobs.
If by any means Sony's mount is a limitation to lens design, how the hell did Nikon manage to design a single good F lens?
(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/monturas1.png)
Regards
Post by: hogloff on March 04, 2019, 04:31:07 pm
I thought the idea that the Sony mount is too small had been shown to be groundless especially as there is at least one f0.xx lens available already.
I'd be interested if someone can prove that it's too small rather than just parrot what's already been said without proof by the competition.
Yeh the parrots love to chatter whatever they read on the net. And if a certain mount can produce an f0.95 lens...who the hell cares. Are they willing to lay down $6,000 for it and carry that 4lb beast? Is that lens going to make someone's lack lustre photos into gems?
I'm sorry...but if someone cannot make a great image with a 50 1.4 lens...they don't have a hope in hell with a 50 0.95 lens.
Post by: kers on March 04, 2019, 06:38:29 pm
Yeh the parrots love to chatter whatever they read on the net. And if a certain mount can produce an f0.95 lens...who the hell cares. Are they willing to lay down $6,000 for it and carry that 4lb beast? Is that lens going to make someone's lack lustre photos into gems?It all depends on the circumstances and the intend of the photographer...
I'm sorry...but if someone cannot make a great image with a 50 1.4 lens...they don't have a hope in hell with a 50 0.95 lens.
I lift the 1200 gr 40mm Sigma and like it a lot! It does make my images better.
Post by: hogloff on March 04, 2019, 06:57:34 pm
It all depends on the circumstances and the intend of the photographer...
I lift the 1200 gr 40mm Sigma and like it a lot! It does make my images better.
Really? In what way? Do you feel you could tell a set of 10 photos hanging on a wall...which ones were taken with the Sigma monster?
Post by: kers on March 04, 2019, 07:29:52 pm
It is a very nice Monster
Post by: Manoli on March 05, 2019, 02:54:34 am
If by any means Sony's mount is a limitation to lens design, how the hell did Nikon manage to design a single good F lens?
(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/monturas1.png)
Guillermo on " how to puncture a fallacy in one easy lesson " !
Post by: BJL on March 05, 2019, 11:15:53 am
If by any means Sony's mount is a limitation to lens design, how the hell did Nikon manage to design a single good F lens?One place I can see that a narrower mount might be an impediment is forcing low f-stop lenses to have a lower exit pupil and thus having some light reaching the edges or corners of the frame too off-perpendicular. That was not a problem for film cameras (see Leica M in particular). Then again, innovations in microlenss, BSI and such might be making that less important with electronic sensors than it used to be. And it does not rule out fast lenses (which in this context is maybe f/1.4 or faster, not f/2.8), it just hampers some design choices and edge performance.
Post by: Manoli on March 05, 2019, 12:10:30 pm
... it just hampers some design choices and edge performance.
The point being that it may have 'hampered' it, but it didn't prevent it.
Post by: BJL on March 05, 2019, 02:10:18 pm
The point being that it may have 'hampered' it, but it didn't prevent it.I think we agree that there is little or no evidence so far that FE mount suffers for its narrower throat, but ...
By “hampered” I meant that some very bright (low f-stop) lens designs _might_ have to be bulkier or more expensive to get the same quality as Z- or R-mount lenses, or even have unavoidably worse edge performance due to either low exit pupil or vignetting by the lens mount.
What are the brightest lenses for FE mount, and how do they compare to R, Z, or even EF lenses at the same low f-stop and focal length? Sony lenses seem not to go below f/1.4, but I am not up on all the third party options.
P. S. I see there is a Cosina-Voigtländer 40/1.2 manual focus lens for FE mount; does anyone know how well it performs near the edges?
Post by: faberryman on March 05, 2019, 02:16:47 pm
By “hampered” I meant that some very bright (low f-stop) lens designs _might_ have to be bulkier or more expensive to get the same quality as Z- or R-mount lenses, or even have unavoidably worse edge performance due to either low exit pupil or vignetting by the lens mount.Do you have training in optics or are you just regurgitating Nikon's marketing?
Post by: BJL on March 05, 2019, 03:26:32 pm
Do you have training in optics or are you just regurgitating Nikon's marketing?It’s simple ray tracing based on exit pupil height and the fact that the incoming light cone to a point in the focal plane has a height to width ratio equal to the aperture ratio. I could produce formulas and diagrams if you are genuinely curious.
Since you asked, I am by profession an applied mathematician with work involving some publications on nonlinear optics, but this is just undergraduate level stuff. My comments have nothing to do with any reading of marketing materials.
Post by: Telecaster on March 05, 2019, 03:58:49 pm
Compared to the M mount the E/FE mount is a little larger in diameter and sits closer to the image plane.
-Dave-
Post by: chez on March 05, 2019, 04:56:26 pm
I think we agree that there is little or no evidence so far that FE mount suffers for its narrower throat, but ...
By “hampered” I meant that some very bright (low f-stop) lens designs _might_ have to be bulkier or more expensive to get the same quality as Z- or R-mount lenses, or even have unavoidably worse edge performance due to either low exit pupil or vignetting by the lens mount.
What are the brightest lenses for FE mount, and how do they compare to R, Z, or even EF lenses at the same low f-stop and focal length? Sony lenses seem not to go below f/1.4, but I am not up on all the third party options.
P. S. I see there is a Cosina-Voigtländer 40/1.2 manual focus lens for FE mount; does anyone know how well it performs near the edges?
If the new Nikon 58mm manual focus is what one considers cheap and light...then have at it. The Sony 24 1.4 is cheapish, light and delivers great images...a lens one might actually purchase and use.
Post by: BJL on March 05, 2019, 05:08:27 pm
If the new Nikon 58mm manual focus is what one considers cheap and light...then have at it. The Sony 24 1.4 is cheapish, light and delivers great images...a lens one might actually purchase and use.Agreed! If the benefits of the new wide and shallow mounts are only for extreme edge cases like f/0.95 lenses, or f/1.4 wide zooms (as recently patented by Canon) then Sony FE could be a completely practical choice for almost all photographers’ needs, and allowing for slightly more compact bodies and allowing many more mainstream walk-around lenses to be a bit slimmer. Likewise for the L mount of Leica-Panasonic-Sigma.
Post by: Rado on March 06, 2019, 08:10:37 pm
The EVF, for some reason, darkens if you put a transmitter on top.Now that you mention it I've noticed it too and it's a really bizarre. I wonder if we can get someone from Canon to explain this behavior, because I can't think of anything.
My main beef with the R in the studio is the slow tethering speed and I may have accidentally stumbled upon a workaround - when you go to the menu or the picture preview (basically anything that turns off the live view) after you shoot a series of images they will transfer to the computer much faster (at a speed comparable with a DSLR). It seems that the R doesn't have enough processing power to handle the sensor readout and usb transfer at full speed at the same time.
Post by: nemophoto on March 06, 2019, 09:12:35 pm
Yeh the parrots love to chatter whatever they read on the net. And if a certain mount can produce an f0.95 lens...who the hell cares. Are they willing to lay down $6,000 for it and carry that 4lb beast? Is that lens going to make someone's lack lustre photos into gems?
I'm sorry...but if someone cannot make a great image with a 50 1.4 lens...they don't have a hope in hell with a 50 0.95 lens.
The lens mount size does not mean Sony can't have a fast lens. It DOES, however, mean that the lens of similar speed will be quite a bit larger. It's a matter of physics of light and design. So, as large as Canon's 24-70/2 is, a Sony version would be even larger.
Post by: nemophoto on March 06, 2019, 09:21:36 pm
My main beef with the R in the studio is the slow tethering speed and I may have accidentally stumbled upon a workaround - when you go to the menu or the picture preview (basically anything that turns off the live view) after you shoot a series of images they will transfer to the computer much faster (at a speed comparable with a DSLR). It seems that the R doesn't have enough processing power to handle the sensor readout and usb transfer at full speed at the same time.
What software are you using to tether? I discovered C1 was exceptionally slow and when I wrote support, they acknowledged that it was because Canon changed some things. However, Phase One had just released an incremental version of C1 12 which was on par with tether speed of the 5D4. As for shooting, in general I found I turned off any live view in back and went with either a black screen or the screen with the settings. If you tether with Lightroom, Adobe supposedly reworked tether capture speed back in December and it's improved. (I wouldn't know since I gave up trying to tether with LR because it was so bad. Maybe I'll try it again.)
Post by: hogloff on March 06, 2019, 10:23:41 pm
The lens mount size does not mean Sony can't have a fast lens. It DOES, however, mean that the lens of similar speed will be quite a bit larger. It's a matter of physics of light and design. So, as large as Canon's 24-70/2 is, a Sony version would be even larger.
I haven't seen evidence of this. The Sony 24 1.4 is pretty small with great image quality. The 12-24 is tiny compared to the Canon 11-24 with basically the same image quality.
There's lot of speculation floating around but just no concrete evidence to show for it.
Post by: Rado on March 07, 2019, 04:34:36 am
What software are you using to tether? I discovered C1 was exceptionally slow and when I wrote support, they acknowledged that it was because Canon changed some things. However, Phase One had just released an incremental version of C1 12 which was on par with tether speed of the 5D4. As for shooting, in general I found I turned off any live view in back and went with either a black screen or the screen with the settings. If you tether with Lightroom, Adobe supposedly reworked tether capture speed back in December and it's improved. (I wouldn't know since I gave up trying to tether with LR because it was so bad. Maybe I'll try it again.)Hm interesting. I do use C1. I'll have to check my studio computer if it runs the latest update and compare the speeds.
Post by: nemophoto on March 07, 2019, 07:55:19 am
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Post by: Rado on March 07, 2019, 01:53:36 pm
I've also figured out the EVF darkening with flash. When you turn on a flash or a trigger, the camera disables exposure simulation (if it's on)! It happens with TTL capable flashes/triggers - so for example Elinchrom's Skyport Pro for Canon will turn exp sim off while the dumb 1-pin Elinchrom trigger will have no effect. WTF Canon? Why is this not a choice/setting? Sometimes you just want to use some fill flash while keeping the overall exposure the same.
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on March 11, 2019, 10:52:47 am
https://photorumors.com/2019/03/10/sony-claim-that-theoretically-they-can-make-an-f-0-63-e-mount-lens/#more-107783
Regards
Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk
Post by: BJL on March 11, 2019, 08:01:02 pm
More on Sony's mount "limitations":Sony is dancing around the real issue (which I agree might only apply to some very extreme lenses): it is not what f-stops are _possible_ (look at what is possible with Leica M mount) but limitations on performance if the exit pupil then has to be very low to avoid vignetting (low exit pupil being far more of a problem than with film), or if the bulk of such lenses has to be significantly greater.
https://photorumors.com/2019/03/10/sony-claim-that-theoretically-they-can-make-an-f-0-63-e-mount-lens/#more-107783
For example, the Nikon 58/0.95 design would not work on E-mount, because its rear element sits right at the mount (about 16mm from the sensor) and occupies almost the full width of the mount there.
https://www.dpreview.com/files/p/articles/4416633505/NikonNoct_01.jpeg
But to repeat, I don’t think is a big deal in practice:
- probably only extremes like 58/0.95 are much hampered, and
- there is far more flexibility gained from the new, shallower mirrorless mounts than is lost to being narrower. I predict that all mirrorless systems will eventually have some lenses that outperform what was possible with the old SLR mounts wiyh that pesky mirror box getting in the way!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 12, 2019, 01:29:26 am
More on Sony's mount "limitations":
https://photorumors.com/2019/03/10/sony-claim-that-theoretically-they-can-make-an-f-0-63-e-mount-lens/#more-107783
Com'on Guillermo, you know full well that the topic is corner image quality, not the achievable max aperture.
I am not sure why this subject is so emotional.
A larger mount obviously is valuable, Sony is still obviously able to design great lenses with the E mount. I have never written anything different.
I totally agree that Nikon has been able to design great lenses with the F mount (never wrote the contrary although you implied I did), but also that the EOS mount has been a significant advantage for Canon due to its larger size.
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on March 12, 2019, 06:19:51 am
So far no one can confirm or deny this, but so far some users seem strangely interested in spreading the doubt. This would be logical from a brand point of view (if I detect a flaw in my competition I have a chance to promote my sales), but a user with the same attitude sounds to me like the childish fanboyism of someone who needs the system he chose to prevail over the rest.
Regards
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 12, 2019, 07:15:36 am
The point is if the differences in size among the four different FF mirrorless formats appeared so far will mean or not any real advantage in practice.
So far no one can confirm or deny this, but so far some users seem strangely interested in spreading the doubt. This would be logical from a brand point of view (if I detect a flaw in my competition I have a chance to promote my sales), but a user with the same attitude sounds to me like the childish fanboyism of someone who needs the system he chose to prevail over the rest.
I would argue just the opposite.
Very basic physics tell us that a mount 10mm larger is bound to make it easier to design lenses with better corner performance. This isn’t something anybody has debated for years in the DSLRs world when comparing the F and EOS mount.
Attempts to deny this obvious fact can be interpreted as a fan boy attempt to minimize one factual advantage of another camera system than his own... sorry I mean of all the other camera system since Sony is the only one with a mount this small at this point.
The best evidence at this stage of this possible advantage lies in the specs of the lenses announced by the Canon/Nikon compared to Sony. I haven't seen any f1.2 lens proposed by Sony so far and the third party one are not that great in corners. We can debate about the usefulness of f1.2 lenses, but that's another story.
Don't get me wrong, I find the Sony system to be great and ton offer some unique values. I am just surprised at the epidermic reaction when a very reasonable fact is put forward that questions one aspect of its superiority. Fanboys rarely belongs to the side of common sense...
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: BJL on March 12, 2019, 08:46:53 am
The point is if the differences in size among the four different FF mirrorless formats appeared so far will mean or not any real advantage in practice.I agree on the first paragraph, but the start of the second explains exactly why we should expect the question to be discussed in forums like this!
So far no one can confirm or deny this, ...
The possibility of making a large aperture lens for a narrow mount but at the cost of severe vignetting is illustrated by the Leica Noctilux 50/0.95:
https://www.opticallimits.com/leicam/860-noctilux50asph?start=1
Note also that the claim that “everything is completely fine with Sony E Mount for 36x24 format” implies that “every other modern mirrorless mount is pointlessly oversized (MFT, Fujifilm X and G, Hasselblad XCD, Leica L, Nikon Z, Canon RF), and so only Sony has got it right”, which has a hint of fanboyism to it. I would prefer a hypothesis in which all companies have made choices that make sense, and differ due to different goals, different predictions about uncertain long-term future developments, and coming from different situations, like different priorities for backward compatibility.
Post by: Rado on March 12, 2019, 08:58:15 am
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 12, 2019, 09:09:19 am
Did this thread get renamed to "Sony mount limitations"? No? Then why are you still posting about it here?
Indeed, you are right, apologies.
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: BJL on March 12, 2019, 11:38:26 am
Did this thread get renamed to "Sony mount limitations"? No? Then why are you still posting about it here?Sorry for following the topic creep, that started with an innocent comment in post #10 about waiting to see how the various new systems fare in practice. Since the topic is of inevitable interest to some of us, I suggest diverting or “quarantining” it: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=129508.msg1099666#msg1099666
Post by: nemophoto on March 13, 2019, 10:43:53 am
As for the "Sony mount" controversy, It's like arguing about Nikon vs. Canon, and now Canon vs. Sony. All three companies are very capable and have a lot to offer. It comes down to preference for me. I've never really cared for Nikon (going back 40 years to fil days) and nor do I really care for Sony. Unlike some, I don't have to money or luxury to jump shit every time a different manufacturer comes out with something. Canon has served me well over all these years and continues to do so (even if I do get frustrated at times with their conservative turn), and I have never failed to do a shoot because of my equipment -- EVER. Now if you want to talk about my own failures, or back in the day when a client forced me to shoot EPN over my preferred Fujichrome, that's another story.