Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Lighting => Topic started by: kevs on January 22, 2019, 01:47:37 pm
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I want to dive deeper in Light subtraction. I have just one tiny black flag and a stand/ arm. Want to build a fabulous kit. I got some links from BH, but would love to see what others here love to use.
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I love my Matthews 24x36 Road Rag kit and have recently added a couple of their smaller and a medium sized metal frame flags.
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Thanks TC, good, my BH guy did not mention those, so that's why I'm posting.
I may pass on that for now, but maybe I'll get later. Seems mostly for location work, and a lot of those scrims I don't think I'll be using, but you tell me. Do you experiment with portraits and subtraction, are scrims as important as black flags?
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Do you experiment with portraits and subtraction, are scrims as important as black flags?
Cinema style lighting is where you find larger light sources and subtraction, flags, scrims and cutters to modify and model the light. They were the only options on hot lights.
Plenty of videos on YouTube with Albert Watson showing this type of lighting. He went to film school, not photography school and it shows in his style. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=albert+watson+photographer
The more common style today (IMHO) is using grids on multiple light sources to control the spread, contrast and texture of light rather than subtracting. Though obviously the best know how to combine both methods.
I'm sitting in my studio right now and as I look around I have about 20 modifiers all with the option of adding a grid and several Fresnels that are 3", 8" and 12". The only light I don't ever put a grid on is the Para 133 or a ring light.
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Thanks Kirk, good post. If there one or two Watson videos you recommend? Too many to comb through! (I got his book Cyclopes when it came out and saw him speak in NYC in the 90s)
Interesting as I'm shooting with the D1's and have all grids and am going to rent the Fresnels to test that too soon.
Still, I though even with strobes, light subtraction could be a cool exercise too no?. You don't think it's necessary? I think Dan Winters uses flags and black panels quite a bit with strobes, no?
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You can just see a few moments in several of the YouTube videos that show his lighting set ups. So I think it's worth the time to look at them. None of them are very long. Start here https://youtu.be/HDMgQBQMmLI and here https://youtu.be/HDMgQBQMmLI
I use black flats, flags and duvetine that I drape all the time. As I said most pros will use subtraction and flagging of lights but not with the large broad sources they were originally designed for. When you shoot with grids you don't get the spill and you typically have higher contrast because of the directional, narrower beam angle.
I have a pair of D1s and I mainly use them with the grids because of their 3.5" diameter where as most strobe reflector/grid combinations are 7" or larger. I have many sizes of lights that I can grid, everything up to a 36X48 Chimera softbox with very tight metal grid and the Broncolor 150 Octa with a 40 degree grid.
The Fresnels I was referring to are strobes, the Broncolor picolite takes a 3" Fresnel modifier and I have a Bowens 7" and a 12" Desisti that was converted to use a flashtube.
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Thanks Kirk, 'black flats, flags and duvetine that I drape all the time.", If you can please send links to this stuff.
You use them with straight direct light or umbrella?
Grids, how many do you have for D1s?
I only shoot grids on their own? You combine them with softboxes etc?
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Take a look at the rag place: http://theragplace.com They provide a lot of different fabrics and make custom stuff. You'll basically want a c-stand, a grip head and a flag. Scrims are used to reduce light intensity without really changing the light quality. It was important on hot lights, with strobes you will usually just dial your power.
Keep in mind a lot of modifiers have a great performance when feathered, a characteristic that gets lost when using grids (of course they have their place, though).
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Thanks Ulf, if you can send more specifid product links of stuff you love, that would be great. The general site link is a bit broad.
If you have any links that show what you are discussing that would be great too...
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I mainly use solid black flags, I have them in plenty of different sizes. Based in the EU we have most of our grip stuff from avenger, but I also ordered some solid grey flags from the rag place through my dealer here. I also believe Avenger is phasing out their flag and cutter inventory. They have some awesome fabrics, get some samples! For grip equipment I think in the US it is probably Matthews or American you will be looking at. https://products.msegrip.com/collections/scrims-and-flags/products/cutters
Kirk´s advice on the BTS vids of Albert Watson is a good source for inspiration, just play around and observe to find your way to pleasing results. I don't often point my light source straight to my object – the edge / transition to dark of the modifier can have a great look (feathering) of course you have to take care of the strong bouncing light.
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GOOD post Ulf. You are on strobes, which brand?
Yes, love feathering, so many techniques, but the whole black flagging is one of the final things I have not done full blast, with multiple flags in various positions. Besides the one Albert W, video, "the light he shapes", is there another one there that shows the set ups?
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Thanks Kirk, 'black flats, flags and duvetine that I drape all the time.", If you can please send links to this stuff.
You use them with straight direct light or umbrella?
Grids, how many do you have for D1s?
I only shoot grids on their own? You combine them with softboxes etc?
I have a pair of the Profoto 10 degree grids and domes for my D1s. I bought the D1s when they first came out and back then the grids and dome replacements for the flat cover glass weren't outrageously prices like they are now. There are a couple of companies offering knock offs on ebay and I'm sure they're just fine.
I make V-Flats out of foamcore or gatorboard both of which you can buy at art supply stores. 2 white sheets glued to 2 black sheets and gaffers tape used as a hinge makes a self supporting modifier that can be used to bounce light or subtract light. Here's Felix Kunze's tutorial on building them. https://youtu.be/oamY8DNaw98
Duvetine is an opaque black frabric that you can find in most fabric stores or online. You can use it to cover windows and block light, drape over softboxes to modify their size or shape and hang it as a flag.
Yes I use grids on softboxes, fabric and metal honeycomb grids.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Eggcrates-Honeycomb-Grids/ci/6252/N/3662541006?sts=cat
https://setshop.com/studio-equipment-grip/m-s-e-matthews/flags-cutters/
As Ulf suggests feathering a light is an effective way to control it's contrast and how much of it reaches your subject. As a large light source is angled away from directly lighting your subject, feathered, it changes from soft to hard as 1 dimension of the modifier becomes smaller relative to the subject.
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THANKS KIRK good post.
What do the domes do for you for D1s?
If you have a link to the grid knockoffs, please send. Never seen those, wonder if they fit as good as the profotos.
That flat is cool, but darn, looks laborious! But the pro V flats are a pricey $400, albiet portable.
If you have some black flat, subtraction diagrams or a/b results you have done, would be cool to see.
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THANKS KIRK good post.
What do the domes do for you for D1s?
If you have a link to the grid knockoffs, please send. Never seen those, wonder if they fit as good as the profotos.
The domes replace the flat front glass on the D1/B1 lights to help widen, even out the light when using a softbox or other modifiers. The flat front glass creates a 70 degree beam of light which doesn't work well in many modifiers because it doesn't hit the sides of it.
I've attached a photo of me holding the PF dome in front of the Broncolor Siros monoblock which has a normal tube and cover glass instead of the recessed design of the PF. The problem with the PF dome is the tube is still recessed and doesn't fill it evenly.
Here's one of the Chinese knock offs of the D1 grids https://tinyurl.com/y9t2f2v9
I paid $50 for the PF grids but now they're 3 times that. For the domes I paid $79 and now they're $185.
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Thanks Kirk, not a fan of softboxes too much, so I'm not sure I'd ever get the domes. Have you done a/b test, and the domes helped?
Those copy grids, don't save that much... 1/2 off.. and seller has no reviews on the product and lot of bad reviews for their busines, so I'd probably pass on them!
Have you made V flats yourself? Take 3 hours or so?
Again, If you have some black flat, subtraction diagrams or a/b results you have done, would be cool to see.
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I use these, with nano-stands:
https://www.amazon.com/Neewer-Reflector-Centimeters-Lighting-Professional/dp/B00PIDCITU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1548329482&sr=8-1&keywords=neewer%2Bflat%2Bpanel&th=1
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Thanks Elliot, did you find these on your own/ someone point them out? I notice Amazon coming in with great prices on China made things.. LED panels etc that previously cost a fortune...
How laborious to set up? ie. like software laborious .. done it come with stands?
I love that V flat you tube video.. maybe could hire someone to do it for me off craigs list! (also quite tedious to DIY)
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Thanks Elliot, did you find these on your own/ someone point them out? I notice Amazon coming in with great prices on China made things.. LED panels etc that previously cost a fortune...
How laborious to set up? ie. like software laborious .. done it come with stands?
I found the Neewer Flat Panels myself - I needed a black 'reflector' for a recent shoot, and that's what Amazon pointed me to. Easy to set up - it takes less than a minute. You need to supply your own light-stands. There's a fair review here: https://fstoppers.com/originals/fstoppers-reviews-neewer-flat-panel-light-reflector-135815
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Thanks Elliot, nice link to F stoppers, definitely gives credibility.
Have you ever owned/ done the full foam V panels?
Do you think these kill the need for the traditional small/ medium black flags, with stand/ arm; or perhaps those could still be nice in conjunction to hit areas the panel does not?.
Drag, you need a stand, but I guess not such big deal.. buy more stands.... (though stands could cost more than panels.. oh well..._
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I shoot editorial/commercial on location, so v-flats wouldn't be convenient (I've used them in hire studios). The Neewer flat panels pack up very small, so they're a good choice if you're shooting on location (indoors).
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GOOD post Ulf. You are on strobes, which brand?
I´m a bron guy, but I also use various off brand heads with my broncolor packs plus continuous lights, whatever suits the task best.
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Kirk, if you have a good link to copy Domes for the D1 please send. Coincidentally I was in Photo rental today and they said I could rent a Profoto Hardbox for a D1 but I must have a Dome and they do not rent Domes. Also if you have a link to a good copy link of a grid for a Magnum reflector I'll take a look. Profotos are a bit overpriced now at $300.
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The hardbox is designed to be used with a normal head with a clear cover glass or no cover glass. A D1 with a dome in the hardbox will mitigate it's light quality because you're starting with a diffuse light source.
I've shot with a hardbox maybe 10 times in the last 20 years. It's a point light source. With the flashtube enclosed in a black chamber so that the flashtube alone is the light source and you get the hardest light possible.
You've running into the limitation of the enclosed tube design of the D1. I'm not aware of anyone making a knock off dome.
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What Kirk said. You might use a fresnel spot without the front lens. Other than that an ellipsoid, for sun like hard light I find myself using a HMI source (without reflector) often, it is a nearly perfect point source as the light is emitted between the small gap of the electrodes. Unfortunately flashtubes have to have a minimum length, so they come in ring, U shape or are kind of coiled up which all leads to a quite big light source that prevents a true hard source.
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Thanks I just rented for testing a fresnel small yesterday, it was great. Though they don't make them anymore and if you find one it's $1600.00
I can understand a Canon Lens being $1600.00 but not a metal box with a slider...
Please send a link Ulf to your HMI's. I 've never used them yet, as they have always been so expensive, and I'm a strobe guy. Is you main lightning system stobe and you add the HMI is or just all one or other? What think of these very cheap HMI you can now get on Amazon. ( I think they are bought mostly for video shoots)
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I'm not sure what you rented but the price of a fresnel is relative to the quality of the lens, the range of the focus and how smoothly the focus adjusts and then stays put. I paid Flash Clinic in New York a couple of thousand to convert a Desiti and it was a good investment.
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Kirk, interesting. Do you think the Profoto is worth $1600.00? I just posted about this and more on a new thread, so you can answer here or there is does not matter to me:
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=128787.0
It's hard to get my head around. I just see a round metal box and a tad of glass. My L Canon is 1k, 24-105, and seems like a bit more involved. And I heard Bowen, who made the unit sold it at 1/2 price of Profoto on their Bowen brand, but can't verify that yet.
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AFAIK the "special items" from Profoto like the light bar and the fresnels are manufactured by Bacht in Germany. You will be able to purchase the fresnel from there, adapted to any manufacturers pack. The fresnel spots are usually handmade in smallest quantities. They use a tungsten spot as base and build an entire flash head into it. You may imagine that this has to be priced higher to make a profit than a high volume item like the canon lens you mentioned. Whenever specialised things are made in single or small series those things often seem "to expensive". That said fresnels have their place and create a unique light fall off which I like very much. I would not necessarily buy it for a hard light source though. 1600$ sounds like a bargain if we´re talking about the same product.
When it comes to HMI you might get a serious sticker shock. Regarding the Chinese lights, there are good and bad ones, the very cheap probably being less reliable. If you're going this way make sure you use a good lamp, preferable with UV coating. HMIs usually are rental items and can be found at a reasonable price.
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Thanks Ulf.
This is the product:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/633104-REG/Profoto_100789_Fresnel_Small_Lens.html
Is it worth $1600.00 in your opinion? I do see a couple of places that might still have one new, though never heard of them..
If I could find Bowens, used you don't think I'd have big problem getting Profoto speed ring?
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/200014-REG/bowens_bw_2914_fresnel_200_spot_attachment.html
If you have a link to the place in Germany you mentioned, please send.
You don't think much of the shadowy look achieved by the fresnel can be achieved with a couple of grided honycombed light? It looked cool, but I think I've achived that look with snoots and grids..
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Ok, I see. This is not a fresnel spot, just a fresnel attachment for a head. You might be happy with some of the walimex stuff, not top notch but kind of Ok for the price:
http://www.walimexpro.de/en/studio/light-former/fresnel-box/produkt/walimex-pro-fresnel-lens-box-w-univ-connection.html
Fresnels still have their place, hard to simulate with reflectors. Downside is they want to be fed with lot of energy. Cheers!
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Ulf is correct.
Bacht not only made Profotos specialty lights they have branded their products for Elinchrom, Norman, Bowens and others.
http://www.bacht.net/cms/cms/Range-of-Products/Studioequipment/index-b-2-41-99.html
I have the Bowens fresnel modifier that was also sold under a couple of other brands including the Profoto you linked to. I paid $650 and have seen them still selling at that price occasionally. My studio is a mess as I'm just breaking down a set but I attached a quick snapshot of it.
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Kirk, thanks.
Cool, Your link to Bacht did not have the specific Fresnel, but your 2nd link did. Bacht made this for Bowens? I read online that Bowens made it for Profoto and then Bowens went out of business which is why Profoto no longer sells it.
$650 I'll buy!
So I should keep an eye out for Bowens 200, and what other models as well out there? How hard will it be to get the D1 speed ring on it?
Darn: Profoto just takes in and puts their name on it and it's double plus basically...
Your concur, not worth $1600?
And.. curious again: Lighting opinion question: You think much of the shadowy look achieved by the fresnel can be achieved with a couple of grided honycombed light, snoots etc..? Or not, something unique to the Fresnel?
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Thanks Ulf, just saw your last post. Walimex never heard of, is that the Arri here? Actually I see an Arri Fresnel for $600 600 watts or so, could be good for shooting one model, but hotter than the Profoto/ Bowens.
Can one mix strobe and spot ok/ maybe use Arri for main and then fire off Profoto strobe as background light, but maybe not good to mix Arri tungsteen with daylight..? Better to try to find used or new Profoto? and same question for you:
You don't think much of the shadowy look achieved by the fresnel can be achieved with a couple of grided honycombed light? It looked cool, but I think I've achived that look with snoots and grids..
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Kirk, thanks.
Cool, Your link to Bacht did not have the specific Fresnel, but your 2nd link did. Bacht made this for Bowens? I read online that Bowens made it for Profoto and then Bowens went out of business which is why Profoto no longer sells it.
What I was saying is that Bacht has made the true fresnels, that's what I linked to. The light on the left side in that link has been sold as a Profoto fresnel.
The Bowens is a modifier, added to the front of an existing light. They were made under contract by someone and sold under several brands. Bowens was the least expensive so there are more of them out there. They were out of production long before Bowens (Calumet) went out of business.
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Thanks Kirk, so finding used Bowens 200 will be the easiest to find? And getting a Progoto speed ring on one is not that complicated?
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I don't know how many of these were made but I'm sure there are a lot more Bowens branded modifiers than there are Profoto. The back of the modifier has a collar that the particular style of mount fits into. You'd have to buy a Profoto speed ring made by Bowens or Chimera and disassemble it, take the PF collar out and have a machinist add a flange so it would fit.
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Kirk, thanks, sounds like a Pita, but you say if I find one used, that is good price and condition, just buy it.. and it can be done! (probably for under $100?... machinist..)
Chimera made this as well- the one you posted? Any other brands let me know as that will help keep an eye out for options.
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To get a Profoto light mount with a flange that can be extended you buy a Chimera Profoto speed ring and take the mount out of the frame. That's what you use on the back of the fresnel modifier.
You could of course do this instead.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1062270-REG/dracast_dr_lf2000b_led_200w_fresnel_bi_color.html
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Thanks KIrk, bit over my head the technical stuff you write..
" with a flange" don't understand that.
Take mount out of the frame. I would probably need a video to understand. ditto "That's what you use on the back of the fresnel modifier."...
But you are saying Chimera also made a fresnel identical to the Bowens you posted?
The Dracast is nice, but who are they? Have you used or seen the unit?
I'll keep all the links though. What think about famour Arrie here only $500"
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/72020-REG/Arri_531600_650_Watt_Plus_Tungsten.html
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The adapt any light to Profoto you need the PF mount. See the photo I've attached.
Yes, Arri's are great lights. That one will put out 1/4 the light of the LED Fresnel I linked to, it's 2900K so you'll have to use a gel to correct it to match your D1s and it'll get nice and hot. They're called hot lights for a reason. The LED light has adjustable color temp and creates no heat. Both will work for the look you're after.
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Thanks Kirk your photo, do you have a link where to buy this? It will adapt anything to Profoto?
The Arri says 650 Watt, so how do you get 2800k? 650 Watt would equal what 500 watt for Profoto?
And actually, well I could just set camera to Tungsten and then gel the Profotos to Tungsten correct?
For shopping used for the orignal Profoto Fresnel, I look for that, for Bowens 200, and what else?
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PS for all: What do you find a fresnel does for you that you cannot get with grids, snoots, feathering etc? Thanks!
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Thanks Kirk your photo, do you have a link where to buy this? It will adapt anything to Profoto?
The Arri says 650 Watt, so how do you get 2800k? 650 Watt would equal what 500 watt for Profoto?
And actually, well I could just set camera to Tungsten and then gel the Profotos to Tungsten correct?
For shopping used for the orignal Profoto Fresnel, I look for that, for Bowens 200, and what else?
2900Kelvin is the color temperature of tungsten. Not the wattage. Your D1s should be 5500K give or take a 100K.
Here's one of the vendors offering the PF mount https://tinyurl.com/y74wgnfx
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Kirk, that converter is for Sunset Photo products... .. I'm wondering if I did locate a Bowens fresnel used.. that might not work to make the conversion-- just for their stuff..?
What do you think of Arri 650 hot light for shooting one person? Would you bother, or just wait for a used Profoto or Bowens to come around?
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Arri fresnels are great for what they are. But they are hot, which means also for your hands to adjust. And a different color temperature from strobes if you want to mix. And way less light than strobes, so Exposure is changed a lot. And you can't dial in power level. Consider these issues carefully.
I love the Arri for inanimate objects where long exposure is no issue. And I like them with people for certain things.
A strobe is much more versatile.
As for flags: in the studio, I prefer v flats and black boards from the art/craft supply store cut to size. More convenient and less cost.
I have road rags for travel or when I want to use the ones which let some light pass through.
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Stormy, thanks, well the Arri 650.. inexpensive used...
With one human model - at 6 feet away, iso 400, what is f stop about? How uncofortable with model get? Does it have the slider focus thing?
I've only tested the Profoto Fresnel small which was great, went on my D1, but it's not made anywhere, about $1600 if you find it new, what is most you would pay for that? (if waited for it used?) Would you wait for that and not bother with the Arri?