Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: ErikKaffehr on January 11, 2019, 08:19:59 pm
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Hi,
Architecture photographers often use view cams with digital backs. Anyone using the GFX for work needing shifts on wide angles?
Comments appreciated!
Best regards
Erik
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I would like to, but did not find a usable shift solution until now.
You need a lens with aperture ring, so the canons will not work.
I also tried the 50mm Mamiya c shift, but with the adapter(novoflex) I could not focus to infinity.
next test will be a Kipon shift adapter....
Usually I use a Arca Rm3di and the IQ3100, I would love to have besides a solution for „easy going“, so I ordered the GFX 50R, which I own now since 3 weeks. But the missing shift solution is a pain.
I really hope that Fuji will soon offer a shift solution.
EK
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I use the GFX50S with the shift options below for architecture photography:
That works perfectly well. I don't use tilt.
Of course with some lenses the shift range is a bit limited due to the image circle. But with live view that can be examined immediately.
Canon TSE 17f4 + Canon EF - Fuji GF adapter (Steel)
Canon TSE 24f4 + Canon EF - Fuji GF adapter (Steel)
Contax 645 35f3.5 + Canon EF - Contax 645 shift adapter (Mirex) + Canon EF - Fuji GF adapter (Fotodiox)
[Pentax 645 35f3.5, Mamiya 645 35f3.5 work in the same way.]
Hasselblad CF 50f4 FLE + Hasselblad V - Fuji GF adapter (Kipon)
[Mamiya 645 50f4 PC works in the same way. Not reaching infinity is only a matter of adapter precision, not a lens issue.]
Hasselblad CF 100f3.5 + Hasselblad V - Fuji GF adapter (Kipon)
Before I used the Alpa FPS + IQ180 and the Sony A7RII with the same lens set-up, but since I got the Fuji GFX, I hardly ever touch the other two cameras.
As soon as the GFX100S is on the market, that will be the perfect solution for me.
Two GFX50S examples:
first one with Canon TSE 24, second one with Contax 35
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The most crazy thing I did this summer:-)
At a very hot day in Guangzhou I walked through the old district of Dongshan for a photography documentation of these (more or less) well renovated buildings from beginning of 20th century. For basically all pictures I used the GFX50S with TSE 24 - with shift - without tripod! Typically I set the exposure to ISO 100, f11, 1/125 (in the sun), but even 1/30 (in the shadow), hold the camera up in front of me (in landscape or portrait orientation), tilt the monitor down, shift the lens up as much as required, press the button for zoom-in for adjusting the sharpness. Then the tricky thing is to hold the camera horizontally in both axis (I use grid and horizont). Works pretty well, after some exercise I achieved a very high keeper rate with critical sharpness.
With that method you are so much quicker than setting up a tripod.
Looking forward the IBIS of the GFX100 ... that will be even more helpful.
Two examples. First 1/125, second 1/30.
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two more examples (all Guangzhou)
first with Canon TSE 17
second with Hasselblad 50f4 FLE
(btw., I am pretty sure that the new Canon TSE 50 also works very well on the GFX)
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If you prefer to have the X and Y axis seperated ( as well as having the option to use other medium format slr lenses) on the canon PC’s the Hcam DRS Hartblei solution by Stefan Steib is a beautiful enginered robust solution.
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Your GFX is not a digital back. So the first thing to realise is that can't put it on a view camera and get the same results as a digital back (ie, poor, IMO) because the sensor plane is a long way further back. Longer focal length and worse crop factor. There is another post on a similar subject you can read through.
Unless you need serious tilt and shift then you can probably get good results with a Canon TSE 24 lens. That is what I use on an X1D with a Kipon adaptor for landscape and buildings.
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EK, I understand that Arca has a solution to use the Fuji on the back of your Rm3d and have a Canon lens panel for it. You should get in touch with Rod Klukas since you already have most of the parts. I use an A7r3 on the Mf2 with an electronic Canon lens board and love that setup. I just got the Fuji adapter from Rod, but haven't purchased the body yet.
-Chris
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thanks Chris, thanks to all advice from out there!
And yes, there should be a solution made by Arca, but that is what I am not looking for.
my prefefence would be a portable, handheld solution as a kind of sidekick to my arca
@chrismuc, control of aperture whith the canons, does it work well?
Ekkehart
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@ Ekkehart
you are welcome
The Steel Canon EF - Fuji GF adapter has aperture control from camera, auto focus (with af lenses) and EXIF recording to file.
Only the Contax 645 lens I have to stop down before to f11 because the Mirex adapter is purely mechanical.
(I also have a Steel prototype adapter Contax 645 - Fuji GF with aperture control, auto focus and EXIF but that is w/o shift)
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(btw., I am pretty sure that the new Canon TSE 50 also works very well on the GFX)
Chris, it is. It's probably my favourite lens on the GFX. Just wish Fuji (or anyone) would release a 30mm shift of their own.
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EK, I understand that Arca has a solution to use the Fuji on the back of your Rm3d and have a Canon lens panel for it. You should get in touch with Rod Klukas since you already have most of the parts. I use an A7r3 on the Mf2 with an electronic Canon lens board and love that setup. I just got the Fuji adapter from Rod, but haven't purchased the body yet.
-Chris
Chris, are you going for the 50S or waiting for the 100?
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Chris, are you going for the 50S or waiting for the 100?
Actually, I love the form factor of the R, even though its tech is oldish.
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Actually, I love the form factor of the R, even though its tech is oldish.
The swivel viewfinder on the S is life changing...
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Gents,
Can you enlighten me here: what’s the advantage of shift lenses these days against applying keystoning in post? Is it all about resolution?
I have used a Canon 24mm T/S in the past, still have it and never use it anymore. I see shift lenses as being expensive, cause vignetting, don’t have a wide range of focal distances available, aren’t always that sharp near the edges, etc.
Hope to learn from you here, thanks in advance!
Regards,
Jaap.
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Pick your poison! I try to avoid post correction for keystoning at all costs as I have found that a 'good' lens will always be a better solution. But with the added MP (100+) available on cameras these days another solution for me is to take three leveled portrait images with a wide lens, stitch and then crop out the foreground to the original one shot dimensions. You end up with an image that would normally be a single shot full frame size. This equates to about 8mm of rise so if that is enough for some circumstances then it's a good solution. This takes a little practice but once you know the lens and distances its very quick and the best solution for some shots.
Victor
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GFX with Rokinon 24 3.5
(https://i.ibb.co/qk1fLbt/79-Dogwood-7465-Edit.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YpjM4vz)
The rest here:Del Rossi Photography New works (https://delrossiphotography.com/mount_merino_modern/)
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Hi,
Architecture photographers often use view cams with digital backs. Anyone using the GFX for work needing shifts on wide angles?
Comments appreciated!
Best regards
Erik
Erik, this just landed.
https://photorumors.com/…/new-swiss-company-nws-instrumen…/…
http://www.nws-instruments.ch/NWS_23APO.html
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Erik, this just landed.
https://photorumors.com/…/new-swiss-company-nws-instrumen…/…
http://www.nws-instruments.ch/NWS_23APO.html
The MTF diagram of the NWS 23 APO claims a very high performance.
I tried to find a way to compare it with the TS-E 24mm L II. I found the OLAF measurement by lensrentals on the digital picture (https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/MTF.aspx?Lens=486&CT=AVG) and oyerlayed it with the NWS MTF (see attachment): the 40LP/mm lines for the TS-E 24 are the shorter lines that stop at 20mm image heigt.
The top line of the NWS 23 Apo shows the same frequency (40 LP/mm). If that would be true it would mean this lens is much sharper than the TS-E 24mm L II. But with about 5% distortion while the TS-E 24mm L II has close to zero.
Interesting. Thanks for the link.
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The MTF diagram of the NWS 23 APO claims a very high performance.
I tried to find a way to compare it with the TS-E 24mm L II. I found the OLAF measurement by lensrentals on the digital picture (https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/MTF.aspx?Lens=486&CT=AVG) and oyerlayed it with the NWS MTF (see attachment): the 40LP/mm lines for the TS-E 24 are the shorter lines that stop at 20mm image heigt.
The top line of the NWS 23 Apo shows the same frequency (40 LP/mm). If that would be true it would mean this lens is much sharper than the TS-E 24mm L II. But with about 5% distortion while the TS-E 24mm L II has close to zero.
Interesting. Thanks for the link.
The distortion of the NWS lens is very high. Not only that, but it is wavy. So, not something I think I would consider for architectural photography when there other lenses available with much less distortion.
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Gents,
Can you enlighten me here: what’s the advantage of shift lenses these days against applying keystoning in post? Is it all about resolution?
I have used a Canon 24mm T/S in the past, still have it and never use it anymore. I see shift lenses as being expensive, cause vignetting, don’t have a wide range of focal de istances available, aren’t always that sharp near the edges, etc.
Hope to learn from you here, thanks in advance!
Regards,
Jaap.
+1
I Try to figure out if the gf 23mm can do the job instead of the canon 24mm ts (architecture & Landscape).
The gf is reporter to be a great performer & should be sharper in the edges, maybe also after keystone correction.
But keystoning isn’t the panacea (proportions and curves alterations).
Shift to break the 4x3 format and 1or 2 degres of tilt is appealing; using adapters isn’t.
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Gents,
Can you enlighten me here: what’s the advantage of shift lenses these days against applying keystoning in post? Is it all about resolution?
I have used a Canon 24mm T/S in the past, still have it and never use it anymore. I see shift lenses as being expensive, cause vignetting, don’t have a wide range of focal distances available, aren’t always that sharp near the edges, etc.
Hope to learn from you here, thanks in advance!
Regards,
Jaap.
It is partly about resolution and partly about additional compositional options. If you are referring to the original Canon 24mm ts-e lens, the newer perspective control lenses are of much higher optical quality. Even so, the original Canon 24mm ts-e lens was the standard lens for small format, for many architectural photographers, until superseded by the newer designs, though I doubt it had the ability to be used on a larger format as is reportedly possible with the newer designs.
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I’ve considered trying out a gfx with 23mm for architecture. Compose using the crop mode for perspective and distance, and then shooting full file and cropping to the 35mm framing. This would let me digitally shift via crop without perspective correction in software and end up with a 30mp file roughly. This will for sure b a better option with the 100mp version. I’ve experimented with this method before and it works decently enough.
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I’ve considered trying out a gfx with 23mm for architecture. Compose using the crop mode for perspective and distance, and then shooting full file and cropping to the 35mm framing. This would let me digitally shift via crop without perspective correction in software and end up with a 30mp file roughly. This will for sure b a better option with the 100mp version. I’ve experimented with this method before and it works decently enough.
Tony, the Canon 24TS and Pentax 645 35mm (with Kipon shift adapter) would solve that problem and let you keep the full resolution file. Both can be shifted a fair degree. Someone would only need to produce a 30mm shift to make the system complete.
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I’ve considered trying out a gfx with 23mm for architecture. Compose using the crop mode for perspective and distance, and then shooting full file and cropping to the 35mm framing. This would let me digitally shift via crop without perspective correction in software and end up with a 30mp file roughly. This will for sure b a better option with the 100mp version. I’ve experimented with this method before and it works decently enough.
That depends on the amount of shift you need. The GFX sensor is 33m high. Difference to 24mm is 9mm. So the larger sensor has 4,5mm more height on top and 4,5mm more on the bottom. So you can get 4,5mm of virtual shift with that method. Not enough for my work, your needs may differ. Quite a difference to the 12mm that a Canon shift lens offers.
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Yeah I love my 15mm and 20mm shift with the cambio I have...but rare is it that I ever actually need that. I find more than 8mm is uncommon for my general projects. The convenience of a modern workflow and better tethering, and nice clean iso 200, 400, and 800 has won me over. If Fuji released a 300mm shift ide be first in line. I was always been 50/50 on the canon 24 tse mk2. So I’ve been reluctant to pursue it on the gfx.
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I feel like I'm an expert in this area... using the GFX50 for architecture. I was one of the first ones to get that camera when it first came out, and used canon tilt shift lenses with it in clumsy way. My workflow involves using the camranger and canon to shoot architecture, and was trying to get the same workflow with the fuji (wirelessly controlling it with an ipad). But there wasn't a good solution for this. There were workable solutions, bad solutions, but non good, so I sold the camer and went back to the canon/TSE lens combo, which works great.
However! camranger is coming out with a camranger that will support the 50s and 100gfx - they've told me this, and I plan to get the gfx100 and use with canon tse lenses. Can't wait!
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I feel like I'm an expert in this area... using the GFX50 for architecture. I was one of the first ones to get that camera when it first came out, and used canon tilt shift lenses with it in clumsy way. My workflow involves using the camranger and canon to shoot architecture, and was trying to get the same workflow with the fuji (wirelessly controlling it with an ipad). But there wasn't a good solution for this. There were workable solutions, bad solutions, but non good, so I sold the camer and went back to the canon/TSE lens combo, which works great.
However! camranger is coming out with a camranger that will support the 50s and 100gfx - they've told me this, and I plan to get the gfx100 and use with canon tse lenses. Can't wait!
I'm honestly not sure that my copy of the 24TS would hold up with 100mp, and suspect my Pentax 645 35mm may be the same. I'd buy this new camera in a heartbeat if they paired it with a stellar 30mm shift lens, but as it stands I can't really see any commercial advantage based on resolution alone. My clients certainly do like to print large, and I've seen hotel images on 3m wide advertising boards, but without the specialist architectural lenses I could probably do something more useful with the spare 10k.
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Your GFX is not a digital back.
There is this. http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/accessories/others/#vca
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There is this. http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/accessories/others/#vca
Only works with longer focal lengths. Interferes with the grip of the GFX. Because of this the adapter plate is always quite far from the sensor. So no wides Rodenstock or Schneider can be used (with infitinity focus). Which disqualifies that as a solution for architecture in my opinion.
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Only works with longer focal lengths. Interferes with the grip of the GFX. Because of this the adapter plate is always quite far from the sensor. So no wides Rodenstock or Schneider can be used (with infitinity focus). Which disqualifies that as a solution for architecture in my opinion.
Are you speaking from experience ?
Recessed lens boards and a bag bellows would be standard practice for obtaining a large enough image circle to cover the sensor. We just don't know what focal lengths could be used.
Not everything in architectural is shot wide. I've shot high end commercial properties from across the street and 20 stories up in Manhattan. I compressed them against the skyline with a 360mm lens on an Arca Swiss 6X9 Monolith to produce a very normal perspective architectural shot.
If the grip would interfere than I don't think Fuji would list this as an accessory for both the S and R, which they do.
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Are you speaking from experience ?
Recessed lens boards and a bag bellows would be standard practice for obtaining a large enough image circle to cover the sensor. We just don't know what focal lengths could be used.
Not everything in architectural is shot wide. I've shot high end commercial properties from across the street and 20 stories up in Manhattan. I compressed them against the skyline with a 360mm lens on an Arca Swiss 6X9 Monolith to produce a very normal perspective architectural shot.
If the grip would interfere than I don't think Fuji would list this as an accessory for both the S and R, which they do.
Hi Kirk,
I agree that architecture photography is not always wide. My statement was not precise. This adapter is just not working as a general solution for all focal lengths you need for architecture. I use a 50mm TS lens regularly (and sometimes a 90mm TS, occasionally longer focal lengths too). But the majority of my images are taken with wider lenses (I make my money with architecture photography).
I have not used the adapter myself. But Fuji is very clear on that matter: http://digital-cameras.support.fujifilm.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/19979/~/how-to-attach-the-view-camera-adapter-g-%28gfx-50s%29
There they say: "If the total length of the shortest length of a bellows(*1), the thickness of the VIEW CAMERA ADAPTER G (30.1mm) and the flange focus of GFX 50S(26.7mm) is greater than the flange focus of your lens, it cannot focus on the infinity." So about 60mm is the closest you can get the lens flange to the sensor. I don't know all the view cameras lenses data, but I am pretty sure that excludes most lenses you would call "wide".
Recessed boards will probably not help I guess. Because the adapter itself has an inner diameter that is about the same as the diameter of the G mount. You would have to try, but I am very sceptical. I think they could not make the adapter thinner because the adapter plate is very wide (that would interfere with the GFX grip otherwise). But I am not 100% sure of that. Maybe if they had started with the GFX 50R instead of the S the adapter could have been thinner, because the grip is less deep.
Best regards -
Marc
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Marc..... I am waiting and very hopeful that the NWS 23mm APO will solve the wides with movements issue on a GFX. You can see it at http://www.nws-instruments.ch/
Victor
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I would like to know if focus by wire- as all Fuji lenses have- is working well for architectural photography or that i gives some problems.
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Every GFX lens that I own is smooth and very accurate manual focus. I've had other focus by wire lenses that were difficult to manually focus.
Victor
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Every GFX lens that I own is smooth and very accurate manual focus. I've had other focus by wire lenses that were difficult to manually focus.
Victor
OK good to know; i have they idea that with focus by wire it could be possible to change manual focus from say 90 to 360 degrees.
Is that implemented?
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I don't have a GFX, I only played with one, but manual focus felt exactly like my Fuji X lenses, which to me is completely unusable. YMMV.
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OK good to know; i have they idea that with focus by wire it could be possible to change manual focus from say 90 to 360 degrees.
Is that implemented?
That is not available on the GFX lenses nor was it with the Sony E lenses.
Victor
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Recessed boards will probably not help I guess. Because the adapter itself has an inner diameter that is about the same as the diameter of the G mount. You would have to try, but I am very sceptical. I think they could not make the adapter thinner because the adapter plate is very wide (that would interfere with the GFX grip otherwise). But I am not 100% sure of that. Maybe if they had started with the GFX 50R instead of the S the adapter could have been thinner, because the grip is less deep.
Well that makes complete sense. Thank you for the information Marc.
Given the success of these cameras I hope we'll see more after market products developed for it.