Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: drralph on December 14, 2018, 04:08:15 pm
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I was priviliged to view the preview to the exhibit "Ansel Adams in Our Time" at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts last weekend. I was struck by the depth of the blacks in Adams' prints. I think most contemporary photographers would be tempted to wring out every last bit of shadow detail, and leave the shadows a bit weaker for the effort. While Adams did not block up his shadows to black, he left many areas with just barely discernible shadow detail, even under museum-quality lighting.
I came of age in the 70's, and always felt as if Ansel himself had taught me photography, as I honed my chops by studying his classic trilogy "The Camera," "The Negative," and "The Print." I also carefully observed the prints on display at the Cleveland Museum of Art. I came away with a passionate love of deep, rich blacks in prints. As I look now on some of the prints I produced at that time, they are too dark for my current taste.
Ansel Adams is acknowledged as perhaps the greatest master of the art of darkroom printing. While current technology makes it much easier to adjust tonal control, I think it was no accident or lack of control which resulted in the depth of his shadows. It was an artistic choice.
Another show at the MFA spawned similar thoughts. The current exhibition "French Pastels: Treasures From the Vault" features an extraordinary selection of works by Jean-Francois Millet. Many show scenes at night or long after sunset, and have dark tones and low contrast. Since Millet was creating these images from scratch, he could have done whatever he liked, but he chose to make things dark. And it works spectacularly!
I have been rethinking my treatment of shadows. I have begun, in small steps, to return to my embrace of the deep.
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Having studied under Bernie Freemesser at Oregon in the early 1970's, I became familiarized with using Agfa Broviara, processed with Amidol developer and lightly toned with selenium, resulting in those incredible blacks. Another technique we used was "toning" highlights, by putting the properly developed print in a water bath for a minute, before fixing.
The quality of those prints was quite incredible. Tuff for ink jet to simulate.
But I have seen quadtone B&W inkjet prints that are also quite nice in their own particular way.
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Agfa Brovira was my favorite paper as well. A warm, rich black that I have not been able to replicate digitally. I try by applying a bit of sepia toning digitally. But the luminosity is not the same.
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Agfa Brovira was my favorite paper as well. A warm, rich black that I have not been able to replicate digitally. I try by applying a bit of sepia toning digitally. But the luminosity is not the same.
If you’re working in Lr, try Split Toning, but only change the Shadows only. I set them to Hue 48, Sat’n 12 with Balance set at -50 to give a subtle warmth to B&Ws. It’s about as close to Brovira as I’ve seen.
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I still have a few Adams prints, and I expect to see the MFA show in early January.
In the wet darkroom, I always tried to match Ansel's printing style, and my best prints I think come pretty close.
When I went over to the (digital) Dark Side, I scanned several of my old negatives and some prints (when I could no longer find the negatives) and tried to match my best darkroom prints with digital ones (Epson). It took about three years before I was able to get digital prints that I, at least, could not distinguish from the old Brovira prints.
I must try Terry's suggestion of Split Toning. Thanks, Terry!
Eric
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I have numerous enlargements from medium format negatives that I made on Agfa Brovira and Portriga rapid back in the early 1970s because where I was living at the time that's all I could buy. Turned out to be excellent paper producing very rich, warm blacks, no doubt it. But I also have no doubt from various tests I've done that using an Epson SC-P5000 with scans of those same negatives (which I still have ) the results would be at least as good if not better, due to the denser maximum Black and more control over black tone gradation in the lower quartertones it affords when used with appropriate paper and software.
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If you’re working in Lr, try Split Toning, but only change the Shadows only. I set them to Hue 48, Sat’n 12 with Balance set at -50 to give a subtle warmth to B&Ws. It’s about as close to Brovira as I’ve seen.
+1 Michael Reichman, here on LULA, introduced me to split-toning shadows only in Lightroom. I've generated several presets as good starting places for warm, deep, blacks.
Rand
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I was priviliged to view the preview to the exhibit "Ansel Adams in Our Time" at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts last weekend. I was struck by the depth of the blacks in Adams' prints. I think most contemporary photographers would be tempted to wring out every last bit of shadow detail, and leave the shadows a bit weaker for the effort. While Adams did not block up his shadows to black, he left many areas with just barely discernible shadow detail, even under museum-quality lighting.
I came of age in the 70's, and always felt as if Ansel himself had taught me photography, as I honed my chops by studying his classic trilogy "The Camera," "The Negative," and "The Print." I also carefully observed the prints on display at the Cleveland Museum of Art. I came away with a passionate love of deep, rich blacks in prints. As I look now on some of the prints I produced at that time, they are too dark for my current taste.
Ansel Adams is acknowledged as perhaps the greatest master of the art of darkroom printing. While current technology makes it much easier to adjust tonal control, I think it was no accident or lack of control which resulted in the depth of his shadows. It was an artistic choice.
Another show at the MFA spawned similar thoughts. The current exhibition "French Pastels: Treasures From the Vault" features an extraordinary selection of works by Jean-Francois Millet. Many show scenes at night or long after sunset, and have dark tones and low contrast. Since Millet was creating these images from scratch, he could have done whatever he liked, but he chose to make things dark. And it works spectacularly!
I have been rethinking my treatment of shadows. I have begun, in small steps, to return to my embrace of the deep.
I love dark shadows. The contrast make pictures "pop". It highlights the highlights where the content is usually located. This whole thing about seeing details in the shadows because we can do it, has confused technology with art. Anyone who has shot chromes has learned to love shadows. This Velvia 50 shot actually has a lot more detail in the shadows then I decided to show. I may have overdone it. But then again.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4051/5165318223_5f3d60f4f3_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/8SrB9K)
Swan in Autumn by Alan Klein (https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/), on Flickr[/u]
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I like the way you chose to process this, Alan.
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Over done for my likings. The dark black areas really don't add anything to the image. Extreme contrast is great for B&W, but with colour I feel it really diminishes the image.
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Agree. The extreme contrast and saturation comes across as heavy handed without subtilty and refinement.
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Well, I've never been called refined or subtile. 😎
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I've been a big fan of Millet since discovering him in the late '80s while reading about van Gogh's influences. He's a master of both color and tone. Been able to see some of his work in various galleries in the US and Europe but never a proper show.
-Dave-
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There are many video interviews with or about Adams that show how is style changed over the years. The classic and most documented example (that I know of) is "Moonrise over Hernandez", which over the years he printed increasingly more contrasty. So dark shadows/light shadows (among many other aesthetic decisions) is really just a part of an artist's preference at any particular time.
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I've been a big fan of Millet since discovering him in the late '80s while reading about van Gogh's influences. He's a master of both color and tone. Been able to see some of his work in various galleries in the US and Europe but never a proper show.
-Dave-
Might be worth the trip from Michigan to see this show before it comes down. Because of the fragile nature of pastels, they rarely show these. Van Gogh saw these same Millet pieces in an auction show in Paris in 1875 and wrote his brother Theo “I felt something akin to: Put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.” The MFA bought 10 of those same Millets, and seeing them now I can understand Van Gogh's reaction.
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If you’re working in Lr, try Split Toning, but only change the Shadows only. I set them to Hue 48, Sat’n 12 with Balance set at -50 to give a subtle warmth to B&Ws. It’s about as close to Brovira as I’ve seen.
I tried the Split Toning technique you suggest. Brilliant! I found the settings you use, but with saturation at 10, to be most pleasing.
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I tried the Split Toning technique you suggest. Brilliant! I found the settings you use, but with saturation at 10, to be most pleasing.
Great! Are you using it for web or for printing? I’m using ‘12’ on MOAB Entrada Rag Natural for printing. I could see how ‘10’ might be more suitable for screen display.
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Great! Are you using it for web or for printing? I’m using ‘12’ on MOAB Entrada Rag Natural for printing. I could see how ‘10’ might be more suitable for screen display.
I have made a series of proof prints of a single image on Canson Photographique using the technique so far, and am very pleased. I believe I have a Brovira silver gelatin print of the same image printed from the original negative in storage, that I should pull out to compare before making a finish print. It is an image where I have explored the issues of deep shadows which prompted my original post, and I have had a lot of fun with it.
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I have made a series of proof prints of a single image on Canson Photographique using the technique so far, and am very pleased. I believe I have a Brovira silver gelatin print of the same image printed from the original negative in storage, that I should pull out to compare before making a finish print. It is an image where I have explored the issues of deep shadows which prompted my original post, and I have had a lot of fun with it.
I would be very interested in your observations once you have been able to compare the silver gelatin with the inkjet versions.
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I would be very interested in your observations once you have been able to compare the silver gelatin with the inkjet versions.
+1. Hopefully with the images.
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I would be very interested in your observations once you have been able to compare the silver gelatin with the inkjet versions.
I pulled out the print I made about 30 years ago. I think it was probably printed on Agfa Multicontrast Classic rather than Brovira. But I found a print of another negative made at the same time on Brovira. Now I see why Terry recommended saturation 12 on the split toning. The Brovira is even warmer than I remembered. I'll have to make another proof using sat 12 and compare again. But the tone appears extremely close between the silver and digital prints.
The luster of the surface of the Brovira is much richer than the Canson Baryta that I used for the digital print.
The comparison also showed how my taste in shadow printing has evolved. The old print is considerably darker, but with shadow detail preserved to careful scrutiny. I also made different cropping decisions on the old print.
I might as well share the image I have been talking about. The uniforms and hair provide plenty of shadow detail to play with.
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...........But the tone appears extremely close between the silver and digital prints.
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Much as I expected based on my own work comparing darkroom prints from the 1960s/70s with today's inkjet prints - we have so much control over scanning, hue and tonality that there isn't much from the chemical darkroom days we can't at least nearly replicate, and even improve upon.
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Friends of ours have an original Paul Strand print hanging on their wall. Every time we are at their house I gaze upon it lovingly.
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My favourite as well. Read all of his books and built a 4 by 5 field camera kit by Bender. Built my own vacuum tables and used a vacuum cleaner I picked up at garage sale for $5. Built my own stand up processing tanks for large prints.
We seen his show in Toronto many years ago. I walked up to a poster sized print of Moonrise over Hernandez and I asked if they would take a cheque. The reply was it is priceless.
3 years ago we went down to Arizona, stopped in Hernandez and found the spot where he took Moonrise. Kind of shame. One of his most famous shots and not a single marker. Just an abandoned gas station.
I'm glad I learned about all of that before going digital. It was good times in the darkroom but I'll never go back. My digital tribute to his teachings which I try to apply.
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My digital tribute to his teachings which I try to apply.
Nice work! Ansel would be impressed. If he were alive today, he would totally embrace the incredible control that digital provides, and be searching for the latest and greatest. He was not at all wedded to traditional methods or materials.
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Nice work! Ansel would be impressed. If he were alive today, he would totally embrace the incredible control that digital provides, and be searching for the latest and greatest. He was not at all wedded to traditional methods or materials.
Very true.
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I tried the Split Toning trick to simulate Agfa Brovira on another image. This one is a minimalist subject which relies on a gradient of density. The result is a fairly visible line near the center where the toning ends, and the natural color of the image takes over. Not exactly what I was after, nor what Brovira would have provided. Maybe I should tone the highlights as well?
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I tried the Split Toning trick to simulate Agfa Brovira on another image. This one is a minimalist subject which relies on a gradient of density. The result is a fairly visible line near the center where the toning ends, and the natural color of the image takes over. Not exactly what I was after, nor what Brovira would have provided. Maybe I should tone the highlights as well?
Yes, definitely if you are seeing that kind of discontinuity and it is not intended.
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AA’s blacks were getting black-er over the years.
One of the surprises for me in Louvre was just how dark, almost black, many classical paintings are in the shadows. Classic masters knew one should illuminate what matters.
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... 3 years ago we went down to Arizona, stopped in Hernandez and found the spot where he took Moonrise. Kind of shame. One of his most famous shots and not a single marker. Just an abandoned gas station...
Good. Otherwise...
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Good. Otherwise...
What location is that, Slobodan?
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What location is that, Slobodan?
Yosemite, Horsetail Fall.
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One of the surprises for me in Louvre was just how dark, almost black, many classical paintings are in the shadows. Classic masters knew one should illuminate what matters.
These are a couple of the Millet pastels I mentioned above. What photographer could resist brightening at least the face? Another odd choice is cropping out half of the crescent moon.
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3 years ago we went down to Arizona, stopped in Hernandez and found the spot where he took Moonrise. Kind of shame. One of his most famous shots and not a single marker. Just an abandoned gas station.
Using Google Street View and historical research, I was able to find the location Ansel's Moonrise, Hernandez, NM was taken. Much has changed, and the original view is no longer visible. In the distance just left of center, the bright spot is a new metal roof on the old Mission San Jose church, which is a primary feature in Ansel's image. The graveyard is now screened by trees. Ansel used a longer lens, but I left the contemporary shot a bit wider to give context.
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Surprisingly, I think I prefer Ansel's version. ;)
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These are a couple of the Millet pastels I mentioned above. What photographer could resist brightening at least the face? Another odd choice is cropping out half of the crescent moon.
A current generation photographer would definately cool the image down and recover tons of detail in the shadow areas. If the photographer didn’t do so and posted the image on a photographic forum someone would suggest it and even offer to fix it to show how how it should be done.
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A current generation photographer would definately cool the image down and recover tons of detail in the shadow areas. If the photographer didn’t do so and posted the image on a photographic forum someone would suggest it and even offer to fix it to show how how it should be done.
LOL, agree. It is interesting that both were created on brown paper, so highlights were intentionally excluded.
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Using Google Street View and historical research, I was able to find the location Ansel's Moonrise, Hernandez, NM was taken. Much has changed, and the original view is no longer visible.
I’m amazed at how well AA spotted out the hydro lines! ;)
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I’m amazed at how well AA spotted out the hydro lines! ;)
+1.
Spotting directly on the negative is indeed quite tricky. ;D
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Using Google Street View and historical research, I was able to find the location Ansel's Moonrise, Hernandez, NM was taken. Much has changed, and the original view is no longer visible. In the distance just left of center, the bright spot is a new metal roof on the old Mission San Jose church, which is a primary feature in Ansel's image. The graveyard is now screened by trees. Ansel used a longer lens, but I left the contemporary shot a bit wider to give context.
I think that is a few blocks away from that abandoned gas station which I couldn't find in street view. Maybe they tore it down. This is where the mom and pop Mexican restaurant told us it was. We drove down there and I assume this is the church.
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I just went on google and this is where we had lunch. There was a print of Moonrise in the wall, I mentioned it to my wife and the nice elderly lady behind the counter (who I assumed was the owner) told us it was by that gas station. More than likely the easiest landmark for a tourist. :)
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Sorry for the bumps. When we were by that church a fellow with a cowboy hat, in a flatbed with hay bails and a couple of dogs pulled up. I had my camera out and he said "you lookin for Ansel ese". He told us his grandfather owned all the land in that area but had to sell a lot of it off. Now there are trailer homes between the church and the main highway. Well they were there in 2015. We told him we were staying in Santa Fe and he asked if were from there and we said no, Canada. That blew him away. He couldn't believe it.
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Yes, that is the San Jose Mission, taken from the front on Route 1. Ansel's image was taken from the shoulder of the main road, US 285, and shows the back of the church. I matched up the contours of the mountains in the background to verify. Looking at the church from the front, you can see the graveyard to the left rear. Brings to mind the Buddhist precept, things change.
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Cool. Thanks.
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There are many video interviews with or about Adams that show how is style changed over the years. The classic and most documented example (that I know of) is "Moonrise over Hernandez", which over the years he printed increasingly more contrasty. So dark shadows/light shadows (among many other aesthetic decisions) is really just a part of an artist's preference at any particular time.
Truly. I dont remember where, but I saw one of his earlier prints of this negative - much lighter and less contrasty. Almost boring to look at. His use of dodging and burning along with cutting out masks was unique for the time. Making the print was an exercise in so much creativity. I wonder what he'd be doing if he were alive today? Would he be pushing photoshop sliders all over the place? Would he be making neon surreal HDRs?
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His critics said that even with his elaborate zone system to create the negative he still had to dodge and burn. I remember those days and eventually losing my patience with everything. :)
As for these days he more than likely would have created excellent work in the digital darkroom (if he didn't stick to film) but he would not be a household name. Remember the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. “You are without a doubt the worst pirate I’ve ever heard of.” (James Norrington) “But you have heard of me.” – Jack Sparrow.
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Ansel had so many of the key attributes: technical chops, aesthetic taste, boundless energy. These days, there seem to be many people out there with those qualities. The difference is he did it first, and he used the tools available at the time in a way no one else had before.
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Ansel had so many of the key attributes: technical chops, aesthetic taste, boundless energy. These days, there seem to be many people out there with those qualities. The difference is he did it first, and he used the tools available at the time in a way no one else had before.
Exactly
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Ansel had so many of the key attributes: technical chops, aesthetic taste, boundless energy. These days, there seem to be many people out there with those qualities. The difference is he did it first, and he used the tools available at the time in a way no one else had before.
I would add to this incredible patience. A lot of research was still going on in the photo-chemistry area regarding both film and paper developing agents. Adams Zone system addressed a number of limitations but even so the he had to figure out film exposure and development times and follow that with the same approach to the photographic enlargement.
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I would add to this incredible patience. A lot of research was still going on in the photo-chemistry area regarding both film and paper developing agents. Adams Zone system addressed a number of limitations but even so the he had to figure out film exposure and development times and follow that with the same approach to the photographic enlargement.
I really tried to do all of that but eventually it was just too much. I back your statement about his patience.
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His critics said that even with his elaborate zone system to create the negative he still had to dodge and burn. I remember those days and eventually losing my patience with everything. :)
The “critics” who purportedly said this, have no concept of the process of photography, making them not critics, but blow-hards. Proponents of the Zone System never claim that it would do away with having to dodge and burn. The Zone System is for ‘global’ adjustment of overall contrast. Dodging and burning are for local alterations. Even a ‘perfect’ negative or digital file benefits from at least some burning and dodging, if only to shape the lighting for subtle emphasis or de-emphasis.
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The “critics” who purportedly said this, have no concept of the process of photography, making them not critics, but blow-hards. Proponents of the Zone System never claim that it would do away with having to dodge and burn. The Zone System is for ‘global’ adjustment of overall contrast. Dodging and burning are for local alterations. Even a ‘perfect’ negative or digital file benefits from at least some burning and dodging, if only to shape the lighting for subtle emphasis or de-emphasis.
I like your perspective. I only gave up because it took time to master it and got pretty costly. I'm glad I went through the whole experience.
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The “critics” who purportedly said this, have no concept of the process of photography, making them not critics, but blow-hards. Proponents of the Zone System never claim that it would do away with having to dodge and burn. The Zone System is for ‘global’ adjustment of overall contrast. Dodging and burning are for local alterations. Even a ‘perfect’ negative or digital file benefits from at least some burning and dodging, if only to shape the lighting for subtle emphasis or de-emphasis.
Absolutely. Surprised anyone ever thought otherwise.
Slight burning in on the corners to stop the eye wondering out the frame. A little holding back on a silvery river to make it pop a bit more. A light holding back on dark hair to show a bit more detail. Burning in a stubborn sky. Part of the process.
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Absolutely. Surprised anyone ever thought otherwise.
Slight burning in on the corners to stop the eye wondering out the frame. A little holding back on a silvery river to make it pop a bit more. A light holding back on dark hair to show a bit more detail. Burning in a stubborn sky. Part of the process.
Only the jealous and others who didn't want to learn and put the time in. I built my own vacuum tables. Picked up an old vacuum cleaner for about $5. I still have it and use it in the shop for small dust pick up. :)