Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 07, 2018, 06:12:52 pm
Photographer is a young Russian, Ilya Varlamov, and here you can see more of his documentary photography about the recent Parisian protests:
https://varlamov.ru/3204058.html
Post by: RSL on December 07, 2018, 07:40:24 pm
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on December 08, 2018, 12:36:41 am
It's a good one, Slobodan.+1.
Post by: Rob C on December 08, 2018, 04:35:02 am
Where are the live rounds when you need them? Stored away in some school for safe keeping?
Rob
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on December 08, 2018, 05:14:06 am
Can’t be street Russ. Must be reportage, photo journalism or documentary. Personally I don’t care obviously but I think I detect some inconsistencies.
Post by: Ivophoto on December 08, 2018, 07:01:50 am
Fantastic image.Or is it war?
Can’t be street Russ. Must be reportage, photo journalism or documentary. Personally I don’t care obviously but I think I detect some inconsistencies.
Great picture!!
Post by: RSL on December 08, 2018, 07:12:22 am
Fantastic image.
Can’t be street Russ. Must be reportage, photo journalism or documentary. Personally I don’t care obviously but I think I detect some inconsistencies.
I think you missed the woman in Burger King, Martin.
What you seem to miss is that ALL photography is documentary. Being a stupid piece of machinery, all the camera can do is report what's in front of it. The only originality and art in photography is in the question of where you point the camera and why. It's photojournalism when it reports an understandable story. It becomes street only when, as Prufrock put it: it lifts and drops a question about "works and days of hands" on your plate. In other words, the question has to be about people and their interactions with each other and with their surroundings.
Were this photograph only a picture of a guy in the smoke on the street, it'd be photojournalism, but with the out-of-it woman in the restaurant it becomes much more.
Post by: RSL on December 08, 2018, 08:54:26 am
In my humble opinion, of course.
Photographer is a young Russian, Ilya Varlamov, and here you can see more of his documentary photography about the recent Parisian protests:
https://varlamov.ru/3204058.html
Thanks, Slobodan. The guy's good. His pictures show how calm and ordered the French are.
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on December 08, 2018, 11:21:33 am
I think you missed the woman in Burger King, Martin.
What you seem to miss is that ALL photography is documentary. Being a stupid piece of machinery, all the camera can do is report what's in front of it. The only originality and art in photography is in the question of where you point the camera and why. It's photojournalism when it reports an understandable story. It becomes street only when, as Prufrock put it: it lifts and drops a question about "works and days of hands" on your plate. In other words, the question has to be about people and their interactions with each other and with their surroundings.
Were this photograph only a picture of a guy in the smoke on the street, it'd be photojournalism, but with the out-of-it woman in the restaurant it becomes much more.
No Russ. I’m not blind. I looked at the picture. I saw the woman and what she was doing.What I’m doing is calling on the total nonsense of your arbitrary classifications. Be honest Russ. You make this up as you go along.
Post by: RSL on December 08, 2018, 11:37:50 am
Post by: Alan Klein on December 08, 2018, 11:41:18 am
In any case, nice shot Slobo.
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on December 08, 2018, 11:45:52 am
I think I would rather go with Magnums idea of what street is. I would feel out on a limb if I tried to explain to someone that Magnum has no idea what street photography is but this guy Russ on the Internet reallly gets it.
Post by: faberryman on December 08, 2018, 12:05:09 pm
If it was just the guy, it would be photojournalism. But with the girl, it's "street".Huh?
Post by: degrub on December 08, 2018, 12:08:52 pm
As it appears, one could interpret as corporate America laughing at the situation Macron finds his government in. ;)
Without her, maybe it reverses the commentary.
Post by: stamper on December 08, 2018, 12:12:02 pm
Huh?
Read reply 9 and you might get it?
Post by: KLaban on December 08, 2018, 12:13:37 pm
In this case and in my trifling opinion it meets that simple requirement.
Post by: stamper on December 08, 2018, 12:14:07 pm
If it was just the guy, it would be photojournalism. But with the girl, it's "street".
In any case, nice shot Slobo
Unquote.
Agreed.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 08, 2018, 12:15:48 pm
Huh?
Alan was correct.
The good news is it is Street in Magnum's definition and it is Street in Russ' definition. Win-win :)
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on December 08, 2018, 12:16:15 pm
I realize it's something you'll never grasp, Martin, but there's nothing I can do to help you. It's obvious you don't understand the difference between a picture of a street full of smoke and a picture of a street full of smoke and a woman completely detached from what's going on outside and enjoying her cellphone in the midst of chaos. Actually, I'm surprised you don't recognized it's street. After all, there's a street in it.
And if I don’t agree with you it doesn’t necessarily mean I “don’t grasp” the wisdom and self evident correctness of your position. It could mean that your position is wrong and I disagree with you. Your position is not advanced, clever or sophisticated. It is narrow, old fashioned and wrong. But then I doubt you will ever grasp that.
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on December 08, 2018, 12:23:06 pm
And if I don’t agree with you it doesn’t necessarily mean I “don’t grasp” the wisdom and self evident correctness of your position. It could mean that your position is wrong and I disagree with you. Your position is not advanced, clever or sophisticated. It is narrow, old fashioned and wrong. But then I doubt you will ever grasp that.We have a saying about "the pot calling the kettle black."
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 08, 2018, 12:24:00 pm
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on December 08, 2018, 12:31:01 pm
We have a saying about "the pot calling the kettle black."
Pot calling the kettle black? Never heard that before. Must be new.
I am not the one that started telling everyone what is and what isn’t street photography. I have never advocated for closing the street subforum because people will never grasp it. I also never started this stupid argument telling Russhe will never grasp what street is. I did however get irritated with it all this time and with the superior patronizing tone taken when anyone disagrees with him.
Post by: RSL on December 08, 2018, 12:34:51 pm
The OP picture reminds me of another, much more controversial, coincidentally shot by a Magnum photographer:
Good point, Slobodan, but I think your first post was much better than this one. Here we have people watching a disaster from a distance. We don't have a clue what they're thinking. In the first picture we have a clear idea of what the girl's thinking while in the midst of a catastrophe. She's thinking about what's on her cell phone, and oblivious to the action outside the restaurant. The point's made even clearer by the large windows that give us the whole scene. It's a really top-notch street shot. It definitely lifts and drops a question on your plate. That what good street shots do.
I know it's difficult for some to grasp anything this subtle, but that's just the way the world works.
Post by: Ivophoto on December 08, 2018, 12:38:57 pm
The OP picture reminds me of another, much more controversial, coincidentally shot by a Magnum photographer:
One of Hoepkers most famous shots!! Incredible photo.
Post by: Ivophoto on December 08, 2018, 12:39:58 pm
We have a saying about "the pot calling the kettle black."
I know the saying, but it is not applicable in this case.
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on December 08, 2018, 12:43:10 pm
The OP picture reminds me of another, much more controversial, coincidentally shot by a Magnum photographer:
One of my favorite images of all time. Well posted. Thanks for that.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 08, 2018, 12:47:53 pm
... Here we have people watching a disaster from a distance. We don't have a clue what they're thinking...
We do see, clearly, their body language, that speaks volume.
Coincidentally, I was a part of a similar event in the 90s Moscow. The parliament was occupied by the communists, Yeltsin was firing at it from the tanks surrounding the building, and there were street skirmishes between protesters and the police, next to the parliament. I had a visitor that I promised to take to one of Moscow's famous pedestrian streets, Arbat. The main street leading to Arbat was blocked because of the fights, so I had to take a detour and park in one of the neighboring streets. As we left the car and entered the pedestrian area from a side street, I looked to the left, toward the parliament. The scene was pretty much like Paris today. Cars buring, smoke, police in riot gear, fighting, bloodied faces. I looked to the right and saw a surreal scene: Sunday morning, sun shining brightly, street ice-cream vendors, clowns with balloons, mothers with babies in strollers, people just enjoying the leisurely stroll.
Post by: Ivophoto on December 08, 2018, 01:03:35 pm
We do see, clearly, their body language, that speaks volume.
Coincidentally, I was a part of a similar event in the 90s Moscow. The parliament was occupied by the communists, Yeltsin was firing at it from the tanks surrounding the building, and there were street skirmishes between protesters and the police, next to the parliament. I had a visitor that I promised to take to one of Moscow's famous pedestrian streets, Arbat. The main street leading to Arbat was blocked because of the fights, so I had to take a detour and park in one of the neighboring streets. As we left the car and entered the pedestrian area from a side street, I looked to the left, toward the parliament. The scene was pretty much like Paris today. Cars buring, smoke, police in riot gear, fighting, bloodied faces. I looked to the right and saw a surreal scene: Sunday morning, sun shining brightly, street ice-cream vendors, clowns with balloons, mothers with babies in strollers, people just enjoying the leisurely stroll.
Thanks for sharing this little story. It tells something about how subjective a camera’s tale is. Depends in which direction you point it.
More, it tells how subjective live is, it depends where you point your noise and how big your blinkers are.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 08, 2018, 01:24:58 pm
... how subjective a camera’s tale is. Depends in which direction you point it...
Indeed.
After our stroll through Arbat, we returned home. Turned on TV. CNN was showing, close-up, burning cars, blooded faces, police using batons vigorously, babushkas and dedushkas (grandpas) - the staple of communist nostalgia - falling down, crying and yelling, etc. If the only news you had that day was CNN, you'd think the whole Moscow, a city of eight million, is on the streets, fighting. In reality, it was an area of several hundred square meters.
Though it seems that the current events in France are much more wide-spread, serious, and destructive than what I witnessed in Moscow.
Post by: faberryman on December 08, 2018, 01:27:14 pm
there would be no dynamic, tension, interaction without the girl.Why corporate America laughing? Seems an odd takaway to me.
As it appears, one could interpret as corporate America laughing at the situation Macron finds his government in. ;)
Without her, maybe it reverses the commentary.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 08, 2018, 01:32:47 pm
Why corporate America laughing? Seems an odd takaway to me.
Burger King?
Post by: RSL on December 08, 2018, 01:47:26 pm
We do see, clearly, their body language, that speaks volume.
Really? What, exactly, about their "body language" tells us what they're thinking? We can infer that they're unhappy about what they're seeing, but it's pure inference. Top notch photographs can't rely on that kind of inference. This is straight reportage -- good photojournalism, but that's all it is.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 08, 2018, 02:01:12 pm
Really? What, exactly, about their "body language" tells us what they're thinking? We can infer that they're unhappy about what they're seeing, but it's pure inference. Top notch photographs can't rely on that kind of inference. This is straight reportage -- good photojournalism, but that's all it is.
My body language dictionary tells me one thing for sure: that they are not "unhappy about what they're seeing."
Blasé.
That's the word.
Which makes it a great Street. It is metaphorical. It transcends the people involved. It speaks of the world desensitized to tragedies.
Post by: RSL on December 08, 2018, 02:08:33 pm
My body language dictionary tells me one thing for sure: that they are not "unhappy about what they're seeing."
Blasé.
That's the word.
Which makes it a great Street. It is metaphorical. It transcends the people involved. It speaks of the world desensitized to tragedies.
No kidding! You have a "body language dictionary" written by Martians? I'd suggest you can't really know what they're thinking by looking at this picture. What you can do in this picture is see disengaged people watching a distant tragedy. How do you know they're "desensitized?" Is that what your "body language dictionary" tells you? They obviously see that there's nothing they can do about what they're watching. It's pure, and quite good, photojournalism.
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on December 08, 2018, 02:13:43 pm
I think Slobodans reading of this image is spot on. I also think it is the generally accepted reading of the image.
Post by: Ivophoto on December 08, 2018, 02:17:50 pm
Indeed.
After our stroll through Arbat, we returned home. Turned on TV. CNN was showing, close-up, burning cars, blooded faces, police using batons vigorously, babushkas and dedushkas (grandpas) - the staple of communist nostalgia - falling down, crying and yelling, etc. If the only news you had that day was CNN, you'd think the whole Moscow, a city of eight million, is on the streets, fighting. In reality, it was an area of several hundred square meters.
Though it seems that the current events in France are much more wide-spread, serious, and destructive than what I witnessed in Moscow.
In the IS terror period our gouvernement decided to get the army on the street, a very controversial decision since protecting the civilians is considered a police task and not army.
The left side journalists used wide angle close up of soldiers, the gun closest to the camera, etc. One photographer, Jimmy Kets, took more distance and his pictures made the soldiers disappear in the normal agenda of the day.....
He made a short video about the topic
https://youtu.be/wmbsXussxUc
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 08, 2018, 02:20:12 pm
No kidding! You have a "body language dictionary" written by Martians? I'd suggest you can't really know what they're thinking by looking at this picture. What you can do in this picture is see disengaged people watching a distant tragedy. How do you know they're "desensitized?" Is that what your "body language dictionary" tells you? They obviously see that there's nothing they can do about what they're watching. It's pure, and quite good, photojournalism.
I wasn't there. I was in Barcelona at the time. I stood in front of a TV in my room, quite close to it, with my hand over my mouth, mesmerized by the scenes of the twin towers coming down.
I could have watched that sitting comfy in my armchair, sipping a cocktail, and solving a crossword simultaneously. But i didn't. And I couldn't. I HAD to stand up, come close to the TV and put my hand over my mouth. The next thing I did was get on the phone, call all my American friends in Barcelona at the time, to offer my sympathy, support, and anything I could do.
That is a normal human reaction. Being "disengaged" is not. Unless it is a new normal.
Post by: Ivophoto on December 08, 2018, 02:22:37 pm
What if she’s taking a selfie?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 08, 2018, 02:22:47 pm
No kidding! You have a "body language dictionary" written by Martians?...
Not by Martians, just part of my KGB training ;)
Post by: faberryman on December 08, 2018, 02:27:02 pm
About the initial picture.And the guy is not wearing a yellow vest. How do we know it is not just steam coming up from vents in the streets?
What if she’s taking a selfie?
Post by: Ivophoto on December 08, 2018, 02:30:15 pm
And the guy is not wearing a yellow vest. How do we know it is not just steam coming up from vents in the streets?
And the girl is happy because she’s dining with a king instead with a clown.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 08, 2018, 02:32:23 pm
And the girl is happy because she’s dining with a king instead with a clown.
Bahahahaha! Great one, Ivo! ;D
Post by: RSL on December 08, 2018, 03:09:15 pm
Hahaha. Russ you need to chill and remember that you are the guy that didn’t realize the woman in a headscarf was a Muslim. One of Ivo’s photos I recall.
Really, Martin? How about a link to that event? I don't recall it. And why do you think only Muslim women wear headscarves?
Post by: Ivo_B on December 08, 2018, 03:18:06 pm
Really, Martin? How about a link to that event? I don't recall it. And why do you think only Muslim women wear headscarves?
Can this be of any help?
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124866.msg1046311#msg1046311
Post by: RSL on December 08, 2018, 03:24:36 pm
Post by: Ivophoto on December 08, 2018, 03:33:29 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181208/52ac9b1e505082fd16c170d27fe5bbf3.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181208/f9a872169e2610e61888019cabf63daa.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181208/0eddf8cf93f71f55182f6356ed5a3bcc.jpg)
The last one is where you started to insult me.
Remember?
Don’t reply to me, I ‘m not going any further in debates with you.
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on December 08, 2018, 03:41:34 pm
Post by: RSL on December 08, 2018, 03:48:08 pm
But I stand by what I said then. Women, especially young women, often dress irrationally. I guess, like Martin, you believe that if a woman's wearing a headscarf she MUST be Muslim.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 08, 2018, 03:51:01 pm
... you believe that if a woman's wearing a headscarf she MUST be Muslim.
Not just wearing it, but in this day and age, the WAY headscarf is worn is a dead giveaway.
Come to think of it, it might be that she is a modern Western girl, heading to Molenbeek, and wanting to blend in ;)
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on December 08, 2018, 03:52:12 pm
Post by: Ivophoto on December 08, 2018, 04:00:28 pm
Not just wearing it, but in this day and age, the WAY headscarf is worn is a dead giveaway.
Come to think of it, it might be that she is a modern Western girl, heading to Molenbeek, and wanting to blend in ;)
HA! You mean that subjectively described hell hole?
Post by: RSL on December 08, 2018, 04:01:13 pm
Come to think of it, it might be that she is a modern Western girl, heading to Molenbeek, and wanting to blend in ;)
Right, Slobodan. You need to explain that to Martin.
Post by: Ivophoto on December 08, 2018, 04:08:54 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181208/1ccd74cdec1287f20910821135f89810.jpg)
Post by: Alan Klein on December 08, 2018, 10:13:41 pm
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on December 09, 2018, 01:15:09 am
Right, Slobodan. You need to explain that to Martin.
The winking emoticon Slobodan used at the end of his sentence is indicative of a joke Russ. Slobodan was telling a joke. Get it?
Post by: jeremyrh on December 10, 2018, 07:51:35 am
Burger King?
A very odd take-away indeed.
Post by: RSL on December 10, 2018, 09:01:29 am
Post by: faberryman on December 10, 2018, 09:04:52 am
Slobodan, a quick question: What was it about that picture that made you decide it was good street? Even the best street photo of 2018? Just curious.Warning: Rabbit Hole Ahead
Post by: 32BT on December 10, 2018, 09:36:07 am
Warning: Rabbit Hole Ahead
It's not always easy to write down in words what you see in a picture and see and hear on the news, and how that relates, but i'll give it a shot:
She is safely tucked away in her protective sphere, her glass bubble of instant gratification and fastfood fantasies, the connected facebook reality where everything is always fine and dandy. A frail, completely transparent glass divide separates her from the gruesome true reality of the street, the outside world.
Now, this in itself is applicable to our current times, but as far as the french revolts are concerned there is an extra interpretation as well.
A wry smile of the corporate elite in their protective glass cages while looking down upon the have-naughts running havoc outside with nothing but their clothes to protect them from the elements. (Some analysts suggest that the current revolts are possibly a result of purchasing power decrease as a consequence of 20 to 40 years of continued lack of proper inflation correction on wages. The difference is extremely small on a yearly basis, but after 40 years…).
In that sense it doesn't really matter whether she's filming the outside, taking a selfie, or perhaps videoconferencing with friends. It all fits the multilayered and congruently ambiguous narrative. The image has a relation with our times in general and can therefore stand on its own, but it also applies to the events.
Hence, it's both good photojournalism as well as good street.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 10, 2018, 09:38:42 am
A very odd take-away indeed.
To be clear, I wasn’t siding with degrub’s qualification of “corporate America laughing.” I don’t know what he meant. I was merely pointing out the only element in the picture (Burger King sign) that has something to do with corporate America.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 10, 2018, 09:44:44 am
Slobodan, a quick question: What was it about that picture that made you decide it was good street? Even the best street photo of 2018? Just curious.
Russ, gladly. However, I am about to leave for a week-long trip within hours, with no internet access (Cuba, bitches! :) ). I will try to remember to revisit this thread upon return. I do find a lot of what Oscar said in agreement with my views.
Post by: RSL on December 10, 2018, 09:49:17 am
It's not always easy to write down in words what you see in a picture and see and hear on the news, and how that relates, but i'll give it a shot:
She is safely tucked away in her protective sphere, her glass bubble of instant gratification and fastfood fantasies, the connected facebook reality where everything is always fine and dandy. A frail, completely transparent glass divide separates her from the gruesome true reality of the street, the outside world.
Now, this in itself is applicable to our current times, but as far as the french revolts are concerned there is an extra interpretation as well.
A wry smile of the corporate elite in their protective glass cages while looking down upon the have-naughts running havoc outside with nothing but their clothes to protect them from the elements. (Some analysts suggest that the current revolts are possibly a result of purchasing power decrease as a consequence of 20 to 40 years of continued lack of proper inflation correction on wages. The difference is extremely small on a yearly basis, but after 40 years…).
In that sense it doesn't really matter whether she's filming the outside, taking a selfie, or perhaps videoconferencing with friends. It all fits the multilayered and congruently ambiguous narrative. The image has a relation with our times in general and can therefore stand on its own, but it also applies to the events.
Hence, it's both good photojournalism as well as good street.
Thanks, Oscar. That sums it up very well. But you understand what makes street photography street photography.
Slobodan and I know each other reasonably well. We’ve had lunch together twice now, and I hope we’ll have lunch again somewhere in the future. But Slobodan claims ignorance about street, though I suspect most of his ignorance is feigned. There’s a ton of good and bad street out there, and what I want to kinow is why Slobodan chose this particular picture as his choice for best street shot of 2018. It may not be the very best, but it’s certainly in the running for that distinction. I think an honest answer from a professed street agnostic like Slobodan will go a long way toward explaining what makes good street good.
Post by: RSL on December 10, 2018, 09:50:55 am
Russ, gladly. However, I am about to leave for a week-long trip within hours, with no internet access (Cuba, bitches! :) ). I will try to remember to revisit this thread upon return. I do find a lot of what Oscar said in agreement with my views.
Have a good trip my friend. Be careful down there. And, yes, I'm anxious to know what struck you about this picture. It strikes me the same way.
Post by: jeremyrh on December 10, 2018, 10:04:13 am
Have a good trip my friend. Be careful down there.
Yes - be sure not to drink too much rum!
Post by: 32BT on December 10, 2018, 10:36:56 am
... though I suspect most of his ignorance is feigned.
Yes, very likely. He has a tendency towards being provocative at times. Come to think of it: no wonder you two get along so well... Hahaha ;-)
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 10, 2018, 10:46:01 am
Post by: faberryman on December 10, 2018, 12:56:03 pm
It's not always easy to write down in words what you see in a picture and see and hear on the news, and how that relates, but i'll give it a shot:Wow. You sure bring a lot of baggage to an image.
She is safely tucked away in her protective sphere, her glass bubble of instant gratification and fastfood fantasies, the connected facebook reality where everything is always fine and dandy. A frail, completely transparent glass divide separates her from the gruesome true reality of the street, the outside world.
Now, this in itself is applicable to our current times, but as far as the french revolts are concerned there is an extra interpretation as well.
A wry smile of the corporate elite in their protective glass cages while looking down upon the have-naughts running havoc outside with nothing but their clothes to protect them from the elements. (Some analysts suggest that the current revolts are possibly a result of purchasing power decrease as a consequence of 20 to 40 years of continued lack of proper inflation correction on wages. The difference is extremely small on a yearly basis, but after 40 years…).
In that sense it doesn't really matter whether she's filming the outside, taking a selfie, or perhaps videoconferencing with friends. It all fits the multilayered and congruently ambiguous narrative. The image has a relation with our times in general and can therefore stand on its own, but it also applies to the events.
Hence, it's both good photojournalism as well as good street.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 10, 2018, 01:08:08 pm
Wow. You sure bring a lot of baggage to an image.
Wait till you see my write up ;)
Post by: faberryman on December 10, 2018, 01:31:20 pm
Wait till you see my write up ;)Can't wait. :)
Post by: 32BT on December 10, 2018, 02:09:02 pm
Wow. You sure bring a lot of baggage to an image.
Possibly, but an interesting question though is this: is it staged? And if so, is it still considered good street?
Why staged? Why would anyone walk around decorated in that situation? Military or civilian? From where to where? Crossing the street diagonally at that point? For what reason? Looks like he's walking straight into a trafficlightpole.
What's with the light inside? Is that his girlfriend posing as if? The photographer is just a couple of feet distanced from her. Is the BK even open? The xmas lights and the BK sign should then be lit? Does she really feel safe and happy when something other than rain has apparently hit the windowpane?
Post by: RSL on December 10, 2018, 03:54:16 pm
Wow. You sure bring a lot of baggage to an image.
"Baggage" isn't the right word, Fab. The right words are "experience" and "knowledge."
Post by: faberryman on December 10, 2018, 04:58:44 pm
"Baggage" isn't the right word, Fab. The right words are "experience" and "knowledge."You pick your words, I'll pick mine.
Post by: degrub on December 10, 2018, 09:55:06 pm
It's not always easy to write down in words what you see in a picture and see and hear on the news, and how that relates, but i'll give it a shot:
She is safely tucked away in her protective sphere, her glass bubble of instant gratification and fastfood fantasies, the connected facebook reality where everything is always fine and dandy. A frail, completely transparent glass divide separates her from the gruesome true reality of the street, the outside world.
Now, this in itself is applicable to our current times, but as far as the french revolts are concerned there is an extra interpretation as well.
A wry smile of the corporate elite in their protective glass cages while looking down upon the have-naughts running havoc outside with nothing but their clothes to protect them from the elements. (Some analysts suggest that the current revolts are possibly a result of purchasing power decrease as a consequence of 20 to 40 years of continued lack of proper inflation correction on wages. The difference is extremely small on a yearly basis, but after 40 years…).
In that sense it doesn't really matter whether she's filming the outside, taking a selfie, or perhaps videoconferencing with friends. It all fits the multilayered and congruently ambiguous narrative. The image has a relation with our times in general and can therefore stand on its own, but it also applies to the events.
Hence, it's both good photojournalism as well as good street.
Oscar got exactly what i was intending, in a more eloquent way, in my abbreviated reaction to the image.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 29, 2018, 07:28:15 pm
Slobodan, a quick question: What was it about that picture that made you decide it was good street? Even the best street photo of 2018? Just curious.
Hi Russ!
I have finally found the time to answer this. The "best" Street is a hyperbole, good enough to grab attention in a headline. I do not have sufficient exposure to the current crop of street photography to be able to make an educated selection. Maybe it is, maybe not. However, given the historic significance of the violence in Paris, I think it would be ranked pretty high anyway.
As for "is it Street"... but of course, the street is rather prominent in it ;)
Now, what do I see in this photograph?
Art is a dialog. A special kind of dialog, like a silent movie, without words. A dialog between the artist and the viewer. With no words on the artist's side, the viewer can only engage in a quiet guessing game. Not unlike trying to understand what a woman wants. Truth to be told, in my personal experience, I have a better track record understanding the former.
In that quiet guessing game, one thing that can help in better understanding is what some refer to as "baggage" and others as 'knowledge." The more one knows about the subject, the better (up to a point, of course).
There are five elements in this picture:
- girl
- phone
- burger joint
- soldier
- protests
Each of these elements tells a story in itself, but taken together, they create a tension.
A grinning girl, even without the phone, is a highly bizarre, paradoxical, contrasting element to the events outside. Is it really possible to be so blissfully happy and unaware of the events unfolding just meters in front of her? Or is she laughing at the events? I guess that is the ambiguity you like to underscore as essential for a good Street.
But it doesn't stop there. Enter the phone. A symbol of social media, of the faux world of happiness, where we present our best self, always smiling and happy, for friends to be jealous about. Is she doing a selfie, facetiming, or videotaping the events outside? Another layer of ambiguity.
The Burger King. Just the mere presence of this symbol of the American cultural imperialism and corporate hegemony (as often perceived by the rest of the world) is enough for tension. Coupled with the street protests and violence, it tells its own story. It wasn't long ago that France was violently against the presence of McDonald's and its burger-joint brethren. Seen as a complete antithesis to the French way of life and the art of enjoying food, seeing it on the streets of France is sufficient to create a tension of its own. Not to mention that in the current Parisian violence, the western symbols of corporatism, the Starbucks and McDonald's of the world, are among the first to have windows smashed and be set of fire. If I were in her shoes, I wouldn't be so care-free in an establishment so likely to be attacked itself next. Especially in such a vulnerable glass enclosure.
The soldier. Ah, the poor soldier! Back from a deployment, returning home, with medals for bravery, wondering what the hell happened to his world? He just survived a real war somewhere, was looking forward to coming home, to mom's ratatouille, only to find himself once again in the war-like zone, in his own home city. He stoically leans forward, covers his face with his collar, and soldiers on. What goes through his head, we can only imagine. Is he cursing the government or the protesters? Or just wants to get out of there? Another ambiguity.
We often argue that an image should stand by itself, not needing a verbal explanation. This isn't always the case. A simple title, like "Paris Street Violence, 2018" would provide a necessary context to connect all these elements into a story.
So, there you go, Russ. A picture that has a physical street in it, ambiguity, a story, or multiple ones, surely must fit even your narrow definition of Street?
Post by: RSL on December 30, 2018, 10:31:35 am
As far as the title for this picture is concerned, how about “Hilarity?” If we need to tell someone that it’s street violence, that person’s never going to get it no matter what we tell him. And I don’t think we need a title that’ll connect all the elements into a story. The “story” is right there in front of your eyes. If you can’t see it, better just move on to the nearest tavern.
With respect to the French resisting McDonald’s and its bretheren, I’d be willing to join in that resistance, but I suspect most of the European resistance comes from being pissed off that they didn’t think of it first. If they’re so dead-set against those joints, how did it come about that they got into place and thrived?
But as far as my “narrow” definition of street is concerned, check reply #1. If you really were to spend some time studying the work of the great street photographers you’d realize their work and my definiton both cover an awful lot of ground.
Post by: faberryman on December 30, 2018, 10:39:38 am
If you really were to spend some time studying the work of the great street photographers you’d realize their work and my definiton both cover an awful lot of ground.You have repeatedly said you have no definition of street, so I am not sure how it can cover a lot of ground, unless you mean your ad hoc judgments cover a lot of ground, in which case I would agree. Please note that covering a lot of ground and being comprehensible do not necessarily align.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 30, 2018, 10:40:07 am
... As far as the title for this picture is concerned, how about “Hilarity?” ...
The only Serbian Nobel Prize winner for literature, Ivo Andric, once gave this advice to a young writer: "Do not tell your readers 'I am going to tell you a funny story... let them decide if it is funny.'"
Post by: RSL on December 30, 2018, 10:41:57 am
You have repeatedly said you have no definition of street, so I am not sure how it can cover a lot of ground, unless you mean your ad hoc judgments cover a lot of ground, in which case I would agree. Please note that covering a lot of ground and being comprehensible do not necessarily align.
As I explained to Slobodan, don't worry about it Fab. You'll just get wrinkles.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 30, 2018, 10:50:36 am
... If they’re so dead-set against those joints, how did it come about that they got into place and thrived?...
Yes, Russ, one of the great mysteries of the mankind, especially when the French are concerned. Paradoxically, France is the most profitable country for McDonald's outside of the USA. Doesn't stop some from burning them down the first chance they get.
Post by: RSL on December 30, 2018, 10:57:12 am
Yes, Russ, one of the great mysteries of the mankind, especially when the French are concerned. Paradoxically, France is the most profitable country for McDonald's outside of the USA. Doesn't stop some from burning them down the first chance they get.
I took a year of French in college, and I realize the French always are a mystery. I like 'em though. They're able to grasp the transcendental significance of something like Pavarotti's performance at Natale a Notre Dame cathedral in 1978 Montreal. But when they're not pigging out at McDonald's, they're breaking windows at McDonald's. As you say, they're a mystery.
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on December 30, 2018, 01:29:16 pm
The only Serbian Nobel Prize winner for literature, Ivo Andric, once gave this advice to a young writer: "Do not tell your readers 'I am going to tell you a funny story... let them decide if it is funny.'"Did Andric use emoticons? :D
Post by: RSL on December 30, 2018, 01:57:12 pm
The only Serbian Nobel Prize winner for literature, Ivo Andric, once gave this advice to a young writer: "Do not tell your readers 'I am going to tell you a funny story... let them decide if it is funny.'"
Depends on whether or not the reader is used to laugh tracks. If so you may need to explain the obvious.