Post by: Rob C on November 06, 2018, 04:13:43 am
Frankly, it's now nothing but just another photo-based slot within LuLa, entirely negating its original function, to provide a space for alernatives.
Are we really so bland and blank there is no conversation left if it doesn't involve polling booths?
Post by: Ivophoto on November 06, 2018, 05:12:37 am
Since the banning of "shows" that either wake you up or put you to sleep, I get the distinct impression that CC has lost its way.
Frankly, it's now nothing but just another photo-based slot within LuLa, entirely negating its original function, to provide a space for alernatives.
Are we really so bland and blank there is no conversation left if it doesn't involve polling booths?
I was involved in a Dutch photo website for years, being a moderator, writer and tester and had all the glory (haha) and all the shit over me. (I was burned to hell by the Nikon community after I published the D3 did not have the acclaimed 13 stops DR at all)
The Lula forum dynamics are familiar to me.
I made some attempt here on Lula to break open some discussions about photography and tried to add some ‘human’ content. I was not surprised yet disappointed to get no real reaction apart from some who are poked into their comfort zone and the one or two genuine reactions.
Lula’s fora suffer from same as other social media. Nobody actually gives a f*ck about the other. Apart from the few who meet in real and the other ones who worship the self chooses Lula God.
Poor street photography is praised because it is posted by long time members or as a return service for earlier received appreciation, other street work doesn’t receive one single reaction because it is posted by lesser members, or not according old self invented rules.
It’s all normal social media behavior and you can consider my reaction as a perfect school example.
Post by: Rob C on November 06, 2018, 05:34:25 am
My disappointment is not with or in the normal image spaces, but in what has become of the CC: it's just morphed into another image section devoid of conversation, argument or intellectual stimulation. I hadn't really imagined CC would be about showing pictures, but for a much more diverse range of purposes - an outlet, a space if you wish, for non-photographic matters.
Funny about the Street department, too. A lot of enthusiasm, then it faded, much as if folks had rushed to show their three or four street shots, but that done, had nothing more to contribute because street is either not that interesting to them, or too difficult to do well - or simply too dangerous where they live. It isn't particularly dangerous here in Mallorca, but for me, getting to the city means a lot of driving and then parking problems, none of which are balanced by the value of the reward - if I get one at all. I really believe that to do street you need to live where it happens, not commute, as it were, just in case you get lucky.
Rob
Post by: Ivophoto on November 06, 2018, 06:13:48 am
You have a point or two, Ivo, but they apply to the departments that are not the CC.
My disappointment is not with or in the normal image spaces, but in what has become of the CC: it's just morphed into another image section devoid of conversation, argument or intellectual stimulation. I hadn't really imagined CC would be about showing pictures, but for a much more diverse range of purposes - an outlet, a space if you wish, for non-photographic matters.
Funny about the Street department, too. A lot of enthusiasm, then it faded, much as if folks had rushed to show their three or four street shots, but that done, had nothing more to contribute because street is either not that interesting to them, or too difficult to do well - or simply too dangerous where they live. It isn't particularly dangerous here in Mallorca, but for me, getting to the city means a lot of driving and then parking problems, none of which are balanced by the value of the reward - if I get one at all. I really believe that to do street you need to live where it happens, not commute, as it were, just in case you get lucky.
Rob
Agree on all you say.
The street section suffers from the scornful reactions given on so called ‘not street’.
And your last line :
I really believe that to do street you need to live where it happens, not commute, as it were, just in case you get lucky
Is so true.....
About the CC conversations. Don’t you exaggerate the romantic aspect of the intellectual conversation ‘brown pub’ concept? In reality it is a bunch of drunks who forget their world solutions day after.
After all, there is a difference between eloquence and intelligence.
Post by: LesPalenik on November 06, 2018, 06:15:28 am
You have a point or two, Ivo, but they apply to the departments that are not the CC.
My disappointment is not with or in the normal image spaces, but in what has become of the CC: it's just morphed into another image section devoid of conversation, argument or intellectual stimulation. I hadn't really imagined CC would be about showing pictures, but for a much more diverse range of purposes - an outlet, a space if you wish, for non-photographic matters.
Funny about the Street department, too. A lot of enthusiasm, then it faded, much as if folks had rushed to show their three or four street shots, but that done, had nothing more to contribute because street is either not that interesting to them, or too difficult to do well - or simply too dangerous where they live. It isn't particularly dangerous here in Mallorca, but for me, getting to the city means a lot of driving and then parking problems, none of which are balanced by the value of the reward - if I get one at all. I really believe that to do street you need to live where it happens, not commute, as it were, just in case you get lucky.
Rob
Well said - very few creative projects are balanced by the value of the reward - that's why most of the image show threads get populated just with quick snaps.
Post by: Rob C on November 06, 2018, 06:38:00 am
Agree on all you say.
The street section suffers from the scornful reactions given on so called ‘not street’.
And your last line :
I really believe that to do street you need to live where it happens, not commute, as it were, just in case you get lucky
Is so true.....
About the CC conversations. Don’t you exaggerate the romantic aspect of the intellectual conversation ‘brown pub’ concept? In reality it is a bunch of drunks who forget their world solutions day after.
But I can't drink anymore after the heart attacks. Thing is, there have been some correspondents here who had things to say, that were interesting individuals in their own right, photography aside, but bit by bit they eased themselves away...
Some of us here met many years ago, and before LuLa, on the BJP site where we recognized a mutual sense of seriousness about what we did, and when the abuse and lack of moderation made visiting there a risky venture, we started another site accessible by invitation only. In time, that, too, ran into the doldrums; one member opined that the problem really was something apart from the individuals, that it was actually all about the concept of Internet conversation, that it had passed its time and, perhaps, had been a bit of a false promise at best.
I guess we can but try.
Post by: jeremyrh on November 06, 2018, 06:43:36 am
Post by: Ivophoto on November 06, 2018, 07:55:30 am
But I can't drink anymore after the heart attacks. Thing is, there have been some correspondents here who had things to say, that were interesting individuals in their own right, photography aside, but bit by bit they eased themselves away...
Some of us here met many years ago, and before LuLa, on the BJP site where we recognized a mutual sense of seriousness about what we did, and when the abuse and lack of moderation made visiting there a risky venture, we started another site accessible by invitation only. In time, that, too, ran into the doldrums; one member opined that the problem really was something apart from the individuals, that it was actually all about the concept of Internet conversation, that it had passed its time and, perhaps, had been a bit of a false promise at best.
I guess we can but try.
I think that one member was correct
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 06, 2018, 09:10:02 am
Post by: KLaban on November 06, 2018, 09:11:08 am
It's the one thing I can't get down the pub.
Post by: Ivophoto on November 06, 2018, 09:22:07 am
I find it quite uplifting that the most popular Coffee Corner thread is image based and tends to deliver the most consistently admirable image content on the entire site.+1
It's the one thing I can't get down the pub.
Post by: 32BT on November 06, 2018, 10:19:34 am
I find it quite uplifting that the most popular Coffee Corner thread is image based and tends to deliver the most consistently admirable image content on the entire site.
It's the one thing I can't get down the pub.
Oh, you mean the cats and boobs thread? Or is that cats with boobs?
No, i think you're mistaken, it's primarily reiteration of previously shown images mixed with an occasional happy snap to stay within theme. It's neither consistent nor intellectually stimulating. It isn't even physically stimulating in the sense that people go out and make an actual effort to produce original contributions. (In other senses it may be for some people, but so is the local stripclub, which would be right next to that pub mentioned.)
Post by: KLaban on November 06, 2018, 10:32:43 am
Oh, you mean the cats and boobs thread? Or is that cats with boobs?
No, i think you're mistaken, it's primarily reiteration of previously shown images mixed with an occasional happy snap to stay within theme. It's neither consistent nor intellectually stimulating. It isn't even physically stimulating in the sense that people go out and make an actual effort to produce original contributions. (In other senses it may be for some people, but so is the local stripclub, which would be right next to that pub mentioned.)
Well, I've put three images up on the current page of the cats and boobs thread that haven't previously been seen on LuLa or for that matter my website. As far as I know the only repeat images on the current page are by the instigator of this the Quo Vadis thread together with the only boobs.
The day I get my intellectual stimulation or physical exercise from creating original content for LuLa will be the day I hang up my camera.
Post by: 32BT on November 06, 2018, 10:57:43 am
Well, I've put three images up on the current page of the cats and boobs thread that haven't previously been seen on LuLa or for that matter my website. I think the only repeat images on the current page are by the instigator of this thread together with the only boobs.
I didn't mean to blame anyone for it, especially not you. It is what it is, but i believe the idea that it "delivers the most consistently admirable image content on this site" is bordering the ridiculous, to put it mildly. Admittedly, the threads that do qualify for that have all but dried out.
Post by: Chris Kern on November 06, 2018, 11:46:22 am
Are we really so bland and blank there is no conversation left if it doesn't involve polling booths?
I, for one, enjoyed the political threads, although I understand why the moderators eventually decided to shut them down to control the rancor. But for me, one of the best attributes of an international forum is the ability to learn about the perspectives of participants in other countries—not just regarding Donald Trump or what is happening here in the United States, but Brexit, the spread of nationalist and populist sentiment in many previously "liberal" democracies, differing perceptions about climate change, the transition to post-industrial economies in North America and Europe, etc.
Post by: Rob C on November 06, 2018, 11:49:32 am
Street got its own slot, wisely, because it means that people with an interest that is only in that direction needn't bother looking at the cats and kittens, the cuddly puppìes, the obligatory travel shots, the rare tits or anything else that isn't street, if you see what I mean.
As for the pubs, I don't go. The single one that I did frequent when live music was playing lost its music licence and, with it, the band I used to snap. Bars hold no other interest because there is nothing that I find enlightening or the least bit pleasant about watching a bunch of expats drown their sorrows in pint after pint. And no, I wouldn't expect to find much photographic conversation there either. And that would be no different were I living in the UK right now; even more so, since I have never seen any violence in any of them out here - but then I don't live in Magaluf or Arenal, and bars I would go to are all Spanish, anyway, not themed Irish, Scots or anything else. I often wonder why folks who seek those out leave home in the first place.
But yeah, specialist threads don't get a heap of traffic either; few give a damn about photographc history or its greats; music, either good or otherwise, may usually just as well be being played to the deaf.
I suppose the wonder is anyone expected anything else.
Post by: Rob C on November 06, 2018, 11:57:52 am
I, for one, enjoyed the political threads, although I understand why the moderators eventually decided to shut them down to control the rancor. But for me, one of the best attributes of an international forum is the ability to learn about the perspectives of participants in other countries—not just regarding Donald Trump or what is happening here in the United States, but Brexit, the spread of nationalist and populist sentiment in many previously "liberal" democracies, differing perceptions about climate change, the transition to post-industrial economies in North America and Europe, etc.
CC was perfect for that, and had it not been for a handful of extremists (who could have been hoofed out), probably still would be. Some kept on repeating their mantra that political theads could be "enjoyed" on other sites; I don't know - I never have searched for one such - but this is LuLa, and it was reasonable to expect that its members were more than index fingers on a button, and were willing and capable of enjoying horizons other than just the photographic.
Baths, dirty waters, babies and drains.
Post by: Rand47 on November 06, 2018, 12:04:54 pm
Since the banning of "shows" that either wake you up or put you to sleep, I get the distinct impression that CC has lost its way.
Frankly, it's now nothing but just another photo-based slot within LuLa, entirely negating its original function, to provide a space for alernatives.
Are we really so bland and blank there is no conversation left if it doesn't involve polling booths?
Hi Rob!
OK, let's take it up a notch. What is the meaning of life? What are essential components of a world view? I'll kick it off with essential components of a robust world view:
Congruence with observed reality. (Empirically Adequate)
Internal consistency. (Views cannot be self-contradictory)
Existentially Relevant. (Speak directly to how we live our lives - not merely "mental assent")
Rand
Post by: Alan Klein on November 06, 2018, 12:18:34 pm
Hi Rob!
OK, let's take it up a notch. What is the meaning of life? What are essential components of a world view? I'll kick it off with essential components of a robust world view:
Congruence with observed reality. (Empirically Adequate)
Internal consistency. (Views cannot be self-contradictory)
Existentially Relevant. (Speak directly to how we live our lives - not merely "mental assent")
Rand
Good try. Not controversial enough, though.
Post by: Alan Klein on November 06, 2018, 12:20:33 pm
I, for one, enjoyed the political threads, although I understand why the moderators eventually decided to shut them down to control the rancor. But for me, one of the best attributes of an international forum is the ability to learn about the perspectives of participants in other countries—not just regarding Donald Trump or what is happening here in the United States, but Brexit, the spread of nationalist and populist sentiment in many previously "liberal" democracies, differing perceptions about climate change, the transition to post-industrial economies in North America and Europe, etc.The section has become safe, like pasteurized milk.
Post by: KLaban on November 06, 2018, 12:28:32 pm
I didn't mean to blame anyone for it, especially not you. It is what it is, but i believe the idea that it "delivers the most consistently admirable image content on this site" is bordering the ridiculous, to put it mildly. Admittedly, the threads that do qualify for that have all but dried out.
Well, the appreciation of images is essentially subjective. That said I'd love to be pointed towards those image sharing threads that do qualify.
Post by: KLaban on November 06, 2018, 12:36:36 pm
I may be mistaken, but I'd fondly imagined that the CC was for things that would consist of other than photographs; the "Chain" thread could fit perfectly well into the general swim, for example, under the Critique folder, just as do WP and the Abstract threads.
Street got its own slot, wisely, because it means that people with an interest that is only in that direction needn't bother looking at the cats and kittens, the cuddly puppìes, the obligatory travel shots, the rare tits or anything else that isn't street, if you see what I mean.
As for the pubs, I don't go. The single one that I did frequent when live music was playing lost its music licence and, with it, the band I used to snap. Bars hold no other interest because there is nothing that I find enlightening or the least bit pleasant about watching a bunch of expats drown their sorrows in pint after pint. And no, I wouldn't expect to find much photographic conversation there either. And that would be no different were I living in the UK right now; even more so, since I have never seen any violence in any of them out here - but then I don't live in Magaluf or Arenal, and bars I would go to are all Spanish, anyway, not themed Irish, Scots or anything else. I often wonder why folks who seek those out leave home in the first place.
But yeah, specialist threads don't get a heap of traffic either; few give a damn about photographc history or its greats; music, either good or otherwise, may usually just as well be being played to the deaf.
I suppose the wonder is anyone expected anything else.
Does it really matter where they are? As I remember the Cats and Boobs thread was put where it is to avoid it becoming a for critique thread or another Without Prejudice.
Post by: 32BT on November 06, 2018, 12:49:08 pm
Well, the appreciation of images is essentially subjective.
No kidding!?
That said I'd love to be pointed towards those image sharing threads that do qualify.
Recent professional works, or fun with mf/35. Yes, there is crap in those as well, but that just makes it all the more admirable. Someone actually making money off of those...
Post by: Rob C on November 06, 2018, 12:53:01 pm
I can find no reason given in Ivo's first post in the Chain thread that forced it into CC; it just happened.
Rob
Post by: KLaban on November 06, 2018, 12:53:27 pm
I didn't mean to blame anyone for it, especially not you. It is what it is, but i believe the idea that it "delivers the most consistently admirable image content on this site" is bordering the ridiculous, to put it mildly. Admittedly, the threads that do qualify for that have all but dried out.
I see consistently admirable content in the cats and boobs thread from Ivo_B, JNB_Rare, langier, RobC, John R, Slobodan Blagojevic, MattBurt... all prolific contributors of images, to mention but a few.
Sure, we all post bum images now and again, but without these prolific contributors the site would be all the poorer: all talk and no trousers.
Post by: KLaban on November 06, 2018, 12:56:48 pm
Well yes, Keith, of course I think it matters; I think it matters for the very same reasons that it mattered for street to hold on to being about one or another form of street: categories make for easy access, just like a contents page helps do in a broader manner; a specific spot for a specific thing. Just like I keep my T-shirts apart from my socks, and in another drawer.
I can find no reason given in Ivo's first post in the Chain thread that forced it into CC; it just happened.
Rob
I believe it was my suggestion that it go into the CC for the reasons I've given. Guilty. But, OK, let's keep the CC for the unpopular stuff.
;-)
Post by: KLaban on November 06, 2018, 01:16:39 pm
No kidding!?
Recent professional works, or fun with mf/35. Yes, there is crap in those as well, but that just makes it all the more admirable. Someone actually making money off of those...
Yup, I've contributed to all of those threads and made money off the images. I also started the Give Us Your Best Shot thread alongside RobC, who put it on the Coffee Corner ;-). It of course eventually died a death despite there being some of the finest work I've seen on LuLa: folk unwilling to put their neck on the line? Perhaps you should have contributed?
Post by: Rob C on November 06, 2018, 01:32:40 pm
Yup, I've contributed to all of those threads and made money off the images. I also started the Give Us Your Best Shot thread alongside RobC, who put it on the Coffee Corner ;-). It of course eventually died a death despite there being some of the finest work I've seen on LuLa: folk unwilling to put their neck on the line? Perhaps you should have contributed?
You're right! However, we did discuss moving it, but decided just to stay as we were.
A pity it died, but as you say, only one pic per person is logically possible - unless something better gets shot at some later date.
:-(
Post by: KLaban on November 06, 2018, 01:37:00 pm
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on November 06, 2018, 02:24:09 pm
Ultimately it is our responsibility as contributors to post content in the hopes it might be of interest to others. We can whine about it all we want but it really isn't anyone's fault but our own if we fail.
That is certainly true.
As you know (or if you don't know, can easily find out), I wanted political discussions to take place, but to take place in an atmosphere of reasonableness and consideration. It didn't happen. Worse, the level of vitriol led to people being dissuaded from belonging to the other forums. That's why, with some reluctance, Kevin, Chris, Debra and I decided they had to stop.
Surely there must be things we can talk about other than photography and politics that can be discussed with restraint and civility.
I know - religion! ;)
Jeremy
Post by: KLaban on November 06, 2018, 02:53:22 pm
You're right! However, we did discuss moving it, but decided just to stay as we were.
A pity it died, but as you say, only one pic per person is logically possible - unless something better gets shot at some later date.
:-(
How many people contributed, perhaps a couple of dozen at most, that's why it ultimately died. How many contributors are there on LuLa?
You can lead a horse to water...
Post by: Rob C on November 06, 2018, 04:26:06 pm
How many people contributed, perhaps a couple of dozen at most, that's why it ultimately died. How many contributors are there on LuLa?
You can lead a horse to water...
True; but there's another aspect too, which I guess comes with age and a lot of photographic experience: after that time arrives, one stops thinking about photography as a journey, a learning curve, as the young say these days, and two things seem to happen, one being that one knows one has become all one will ever become, and anxiety pretty much goes out of the window, and, secondly, any sense of embarrassment about one's work with it. It's a kind of liberation, a sense that one can at last be honest with and about oneself.
Which is good, but for younger people, or those for whom photography has not been a life's concentrated effort, there is probably that damned sense of not being good enough, with the subsequent hesitation about going out on limbs.
Which is understandable. I guess it really is about ego and the certainties of youth where you just never think you can fail. What else could allow one to become a professional photographer? It is far more difficult to feel that way later on, especially when your own eyes place you pretty firmly on the ladder rung you think you really should cling to because it's the last safe one.
How did we get here? Maybe we really can find something to discuss in this slot after all.
Rob
Post by: Ivo_B on November 06, 2018, 04:46:17 pm
It was with ample hope I subscribed to Lula, just to find out things are here just like they are on other fora. But hey, maybe that is not so bad after all, better than the nec plus ultra navel gazing on Facebook, better than the professional ranting on Twitter and better than being flooded with scam publicity on Instagram.
I understand Rob_C's initial comment, I tried to start a new style photo-group on Flickr, sadly, at a moment Facebook was sucking all live out of the majority of fora, or other than facebook communities.
The goal was to post quality images and in the discussion section we tried to talk about the emotional impact of images, find relation between images, poetry, music and literature. There was a section to share new exhibits, new published books, etc etc.
One project was to illustrate a poem of the Dutch poet Lucebert. 20 Photographers initially joined the project, only few contributed and the rest turned their back to the project in arguments, just to cover up their incompetence to effectively make the cerebral link between poetry and visual art.
No need to say the Flickr group did not survive.
I started a facebook group with the subject: The clock of Jean Claude Lemagny. All much to difficult, Peoples are not interested to contribute, it reveals their incompetence.
So I'm with Rob_c's initial comment, but I'm still hoping to find colleague photographers, enthousiast or pro's, open minded enough to substantive discuss images.
Rob_C, I will give it another try, .....
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on November 07, 2018, 03:03:57 am
... members are typecasts and react identically. Every forum has it's own Ivo_B, RSL, Rob C and Jeremey,
And there's me, thinking my personality is as unique as my name. Hey ho.
Jeremy (with but two "e"s).
Post by: Ivophoto on November 07, 2018, 04:23:53 am
And there's me, thinking my personality is as unique as my name. Hey ho.
Jeremy (with but two "e"s).
Sorry to misspell your name Jeremy, I won’t do it again.
I ‘m pretty sure you are a unique person, however your internet faceplate isn’t.
Post by: amolitor on November 07, 2018, 12:29:52 pm
Mostly, I don't want to talk to people that I share nothing with. We might disagree about most things, but we live on the same street. Or we agree about politics and live in different states, and enjoy talking about the state of computing (terrible).
People in a forum are ciphers, we might agree on this, disagree on that, but there is also a vast unknown world of things we might or might not have in common. When it's open to all, and anyone can horn in with their ideas, the conversation already has trouble staying on track.
When the conversation turns interesting, it's usually because you're feeling around the edges of something big, or alarming, controversial, and feeling our way into what we can agree on, what we can agree to disagree on, and what we are willing to start throwing down some serious rhetoric on. It's at this point that someone will, in the context of a forum, usually horn in with something hurtful, or stupid, or wilfully argumentative. Alternatively, they'll simply try to derail the conversation because it makes them uncomfortable.
Politics is just a worst-case-scenario.
Try talking about Art. It with degenerates into a dribble of "well it's all just subjective innit" because nobody's got the juice to take a stand, or it degenerates into a stupid fight between people with too much juice and not enough brains.
Forums feel like they ought to be good for this, but they're not. They're great for "crowd-sourcing" solutions to problems, for getting a multitude of answers to more or less non-controversial topics, but that seems, sadly, to be about it.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 08, 2018, 02:54:06 am
...Recent professional works...
You mean the one that evolved into passport photos?
Post by: Rob C on November 08, 2018, 05:06:02 am
You mean the one that evolved into passport photos?
A look at my work book tells me that for the first few months of professional life on my own, passport heads were high on the list of things done. I remember the Exakta Varex camera I had with the built-in knife that, in case of an emergency passport, allowed me to cut the film and save the rest; times were bloody tough and prices so low that using a film per job meant no profit. Thank God that I was able to outlive that initial period of penury and get into advertising just in time.
But I know what you mean.
On the other hand, folks get to do the work that's around. That's one huge difference betwen pro and am.
Post by: Ivophoto on November 08, 2018, 05:39:25 am
A look at my work book tells me that for the first few months of professional life on my own, passport heads were high on the list of things done. I remember the Exakta Varex camera I had with the built-in knife that, in case of an emergency passport, allowed me to cut the film and save the rest; times were bloody tough and prices so low that using a film per job meant no profit. Thank God that I was able to outlive that initial period of penury and get into advertising just in time.
But I know what you mean.
On the other hand, folks get to do the work that's around. That's one huge difference betwen pro and am.
The nice thing of the Exacta Varex, apart from the nifty knife, was the standard lens with makro ability and the mechanical automatic adjustment of the max aperture.
It is certainly a relief not to be full time pro, I don’t need to accept the bulk to pay the house and the car.
Post by: Rob C on November 08, 2018, 08:57:31 am
The nice thing of the Exacta Varex, apart from the nifty knife, was the standard lens with makro ability and the mechanical automatic adjustment of the max aperture.
It is certainly a relief not to be full time pro, I don’t need to accept the bulk to pay the house and the car.
My moment of epiphany came on the steps of a dank, Paisley Road West, Glasgow church as I waited for a bride to arrive in the rain. I imagined Bailey driving along in his Rolls-Royce, slowing down to look at me, smile in sorrow, and drive away.
I swore there and then that I would never do public work again, and that if I couldn't hack it doing fashion, which was why I became a snapper, then I should get the hell out of it. Somebody must have been listening, because it worked out.
If you take on a job as difficult to make a living in as photography always was, then you owe it to yourself to do the work you are driven to do and not settle for crap. If you settle for crap, you may as well do entirely other crap that will keep you busy and earning decent money without the angst.
Post by: Two23 on November 08, 2018, 10:16:00 am
I do like the Photo Chain. There have been some great photos. I'm mostly interested to see how it morphs from day to day though. Internet forums themselves? I avoid the ones with politics. They generally seem populated with strident people who are parroting back what they heard on their favorite partisan TV network. There's rarely any original thought. They, like most things in our culture at the moment, seem needlessly divisive. Living in a small city in a relatively isolated region the internet gives me access to people and content I otherwise would not have. True, few share my love of ancient cameras, early photo history, or photo'ing trains at night, but I & my assistant (Annie the Cat) enjoy representing my niche.
Kent in SD
(a lesser Lula member)
Below photo:
Annie inspects an 1895 rapid rectilinear lens made by
Alphonse Darlot, a man considered by some to be a boob.
Post by: KLaban on November 08, 2018, 11:40:23 am
I do like the Photo Chain...
Me too. I love the power we have to morph it towards our own idea of where it is we want it to go. I love the mind-set and mischief of the other contributors. Above all it's a bit of fun.
Post by: Ivophoto on November 08, 2018, 12:22:17 pm
I got that wordless frozen stare that husbands have come to know as "The Look."
Hahahahaha, man you made my day. This could be an episode of my life.
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 09, 2018, 10:37:03 am
That is certainly true.
As you know (or if you don't know, can easily find out), I wanted political discussions to take place, but to take place in an atmosphere of reasonableness and consideration. It didn't happen. Worse, the level of vitriol led to people being dissuaded from belonging to the other forums. That's why, with some reluctance, Kevin, Chris, Debra and I decided they had to stop.
Surely there must be things we can talk about other than photography and politics that can be discussed with restraint and civility.
I know - religion! ;)
Jeremy
Or, ban the offending members for a certain period of time?
Post by: Rob C on November 09, 2018, 10:58:39 am
Well, some thoughts. I do like having a place to put "miscellaneous" posts. It serves a purpose. As for street photography, I do like it but people are correct when they say you really need access to a place to do it. I'm limited in this small city, and most of my "street" shots come from visiting bigger cities. Still enjoy the candidness though. Cats & boobs--for a joke I wanted to take a close up photo of my cat lying between a pair, and post it here. My cat was on board with the idea, but when I approached my wife (who has the only boobs I have easy access to), I got that wordless frozen stare that husbands have come to know as "The Look."
I do like the Photo Chain. There have been some great photos. I'm mostly interested to see how it morphs from day to day though. Internet forums themselves? I avoid the ones with politics. They generally seem populated with strident people who are parroting back what they heard on their favorite partisan TV network. There's rarely any original thought. They, like most things in our culture at the moment, seem needlessly divisive. Living in a small city in a relatively isolated region the internet gives me access to people and content I otherwise would not have. True, few share my love of ancient cameras, early photo history, or photo'ing trains at night, but I & my assistant (Annie the Cat) enjoy representing my niche.
Kent in SD
(a lesser Lula member)
Below photo:
Annie inspects an 1895 rapid rectilinear lens made by
Alphonse Darlot, a man considered by some to be a boob.
Yes, I also live in the sticks, the space between two small towns: one, a tourist resort that closes in winter and that originally served as the fishing base for the second, the main town (also small) that sits a few klicks inland as defence against the old raids from Barbary Pirates. A watchtower on one of the peaks behind the bay would, on sighting enemy ships, have a smokey fire lit, giving the citizens of both places visible signal and time to retreat and arm themselves against the intruders.
It was a great place to be when I was working - beaches etc. close to hand without days of travel - and as long as my late wife was around, lots of happiness doing nothing when nothing was there to be done but enjoy the peace. Since her exit, the Internet has been a sort of lame substitute for conversation. I got myself a website, and that kept me busy for some time, scanning etc. but now, ten years single again this week, and the magic has gone and boredom sits heavy.
So here I find myself, punching the keys and growing bent double doing it. For what? The signs of repeat hooliganism and Luftwaffe caps and jackboots filling the shadows behind the monitor?
It doesn't make for optimism or offer encouragement to post much anymore. Everything changes.
Post by: Alan Klein on November 09, 2018, 12:14:21 pm
Post by: Rob C on November 09, 2018, 12:55:55 pm
Do some charity work. Go help some one. Get off the computer.
Your third option makes the best sense; the other two make me uncertain just which side of the concepts I might/should really be standing - contributor or recipient?
:-)
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 09, 2018, 01:32:44 pm
Your third option makes the best sense; the other two make me uncertain just which side of the concepts I might/should really be standing - contributor or recipient?
:-)
(Sappiness alert!)
If you contribute, you receive.
(Sorry, could not stop myself.) :)
Post by: KLaban on November 09, 2018, 01:42:43 pm
Yes, I also live in the sticks, the space between two small towns: one, a tourist resort that closes in winter and that originally served as the fishing base for the second, the main town (also small) that sits a few klicks inland as defence against the old raids from Barbary Pirates. A watchtower on one of the peaks behind the bay would, on sighting enemy ships, have a smokey fire lit, giving the citizens of both places visible signal and time to retreat and arm themselves against the intruders.
It was a great place to be when I was working - beaches etc. close to hand without days of travel - and as long as my late wife was around, lots of happiness doing nothing when nothing was there to be done but enjoy the peace. Since her exit, the Internet has been a sort of lame substitute for conversation. I got myself a website, and that kept me busy for some time, scanning etc. but now, ten years single again this week, and the magic has gone and boredom sits heavy.
So here I find myself, punching the keys and growing bent double doing it. For what? The signs of repeat hooliganism and Luftwaffe caps and jackboots filling the shadows behind the monitor?
It doesn't make for optimism or offer encouragement to post much anymore. Everything changes.
Oh, come on now, Rob, you really haven't been that bad.
;)
Post by: Peter McLennan on November 09, 2018, 02:48:09 pm
Do some charity work. Go help some one. Get off the computer.
Agreed, Alan, on points one and two. It works for me.
About half a year ago, walking, shooting, contemplating my recent life (I'm 72) I came up with the following aphorism:
"It's more fun to be generous than to be stingy"
So far, it's working.
Post by: Alan Klein on November 09, 2018, 03:23:33 pm
Agreed, Alan, on points one and two. It works for me.
About half a year ago, walking, shooting, contemplating my recent life (I'm 72) I came up with the following aphorism:
"It's more fun to be generous than to be stingy"
So far, it's working.
I find at 73 I can get rather bored. Been there, done that. One way to feel good and maintain a connection to photography is to give back. I have a friend who wants me to help him create a slideshow from his vacation pictures. I'm still waiting for him to do the prep work. He's seen the shows I did of my vacations which I play on a UHDTV as a video with music, credits, etc. But it's a way of feeling good about my photography and get out of a rut. After all how many landscapes shots with trees can I look at?
Another thing that I have done, should do again, is to enlarge one of my better shots and frame it and give them as a gift to friends and family. They're so appreciative, they might even mount it on their walls. Then, I can combine an ego trip with giving to make someone happy. Another added benefit is that everytime I visit, there's my picture hanging up there. In someone else's house. And they thank me again.
Post by: Rob C on November 09, 2018, 06:21:01 pm
I find at 73 I can get rather bored. Been there, done that. One way to feel good and maintain a connection to photography is to give back. I have a friend who wants me to help him create a slideshow from his vacation pictures. I'm still waiting for him to do the prep work. He's seen the shows I did of my vacations which I play on a UHDTV as a video with music, credits, etc. But it's a way of feeling good about my photography and get out of a rut. After all how many landscapes shots with trees can I look at?
Another thing that I have done, should do again, is to enlarge one of my better shots and frame it and give them as a gift to friends and family. They're so appreciative, they might even mount it on their walls. Then, I can combine an ego trip with giving to make someone happy. Another added benefit is that everytime I visit, there's my picture hanging up there. In someone else's house. And they thank me again.
At 73 you're still a youth. Go play tennis!
My exercise consists of an hour's walk a day, either out in the world if the weather is dry, or on part of the terrace if not, which also lets me lift some heavy water bottles each fifteen minutes, thus exercising the arms and shoulders too. I can't very well carry the bottles with me when I opt for the first choice and go walking out in public; far too heavy, and the sound of sloshing water would drive me nuts and force a rest stop every five minutes even if I could carry them.
Of course, the best incentive is carrying a camera, because then that obligatory hour turns into two. At the cost of creating more nervous tension when everything looks like every other shot I made in the damned town. Grrrr...
Yet, bad weather does make for more satisfying images than does relentless sunshine.
Giving back, if in photography, is something a lot of people say. It has always struck me as absurd: I had to fight, tooth and nail, for all that photography ever let me earn. I feel no debt towards it, but I do feel love for it. I think there must be very few photographers had it easy - at any level. There is always a high price.
:-)
Post by: Chris Kern on November 09, 2018, 07:16:12 pm
So here I find myself, punching the keys and growing bent double doing it. For what?
Well, I can only speak for myself, but I'm always on the lookout for your posts: I find them both insightful and articulately crafted.
And as a lifelong amateur photographer, I enjoy reading your perspective as a retired pro.
Also, as an estadounidense, I'm intrigued by your perspective as an expatriate Brit. (Or should I say Scotsman? After Brexit,* whaddayayouse gonna call yourselves?)
———
*Sorry: I keep veering into politics. Lifetime habit. I probably should seek professional help.**
———
**Apropos of the original premise of this thread, I confess I miss Schewe's nocturnal rants about Trump.
Post by: Rob C on November 10, 2018, 07:41:09 am
Well, I can only speak for myself, but I'm always on the lookout for your posts: I find them both insightful and articulately crafted.
And as a lifelong amateur photographer, I enjoy reading your perspective as a retired pro.
Also, as an estadounidense, I'm intrigued by your perspective as an expatriate Brit. (Or should I say Scotsman? After Brexit,* whaddayayouse gonna call yourselves?)
———
*Sorry: I keep veering into politics. Lifetime habit. I probably should seek professional help.**
———
**Apropos of the original premise of this thread, I confess I miss Schewe's nocturnal rants about Trump.
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the kind remarks - I guess writing was something I picked up on early in life because I was ever encouraged to read, and like most things to which we are exposed for a long time, it kinda rubs off...
Regarding the pro side of photography, I checked out before digital took hold, and my views are probably well out of date concerning the status quo, but if you keep reading BC (Cooter)'s posts, you will get a great view over today's pro world. Also, he's one of those rate birds that are not uptight about helping others with advice. One of LuLa's best assets.
Regarding the post-Brexit scenario - I guess it remains to be written. That said, the portents don't auger well, but one can do zilch about any of it - wasn't even permitted to vote, just like the cats on the Isle of Man. I see that as either short/sighted, an oversight, or, perhaps, intentionally excluding the very people, the many expats, with a fair idea of what the outcome could really come to signify in terms of lost rights, not simply for themselves, but for all those with broader horizons than the local village or suburban bar. But then, the British have always lagged behind, relatively, in learning foreign languages, so it isn't surprising that the island perspective is strongly rooted. A pity.
Rob
Post by: Rob C on November 10, 2018, 09:29:07 am
Apologies to anyone inconvenienced - mea culpa!
Post by: degrub on November 10, 2018, 11:06:32 am
Post by: Rob C on November 10, 2018, 11:35:11 am
When the buttons get too small for my fingers, i just plant 2 fingertips on the ipad and spread them. This magnifies the screen in that area. Viola, big buttons !
Yes, I know that function, but only think about it when looking at portfolios! Clearly, I have not a digital mind.
There's another odd thing that sometimes happens: if I swipe slowly downwards to advance through a thread, to read the next post, for example, the screen image can enlarge itself every subsequent time I touch it. I'm not sure what I do to escape this state, but it usually does stop, and things get back to normal.
That said, the little device is becoming my most-used obect. My own snaps look so much better on it! The only thing that I tried and didn't really find I liked to use, was the camera. But then I also only use the cellphone one for showing things I need to plumbers etc., so I'm not surprised that I'm not too taken with it.
;-)
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on November 11, 2018, 10:34:47 am
Do some documentary photography where you live or can visit. Think a little outside the box and get out of your comfort zone. I don't know how much I will be able to do during the winter months but I do want to go to some of the parts of West Virginia that are economically desolate and see what things are like; a lot of these are only about 3-4 hours away by car. It's too easy to live inside one's bubble.
Giving back, if in photography, is something a lot of people say. It has always struck me as absurd: I had to fight, tooth and nail, for all that photography ever let me earn. I feel no debt towards it, but I do feel love for it. I think there must be very few photographers had it easy - at any level. There is always a high price.
:-)
EDIT: meant to add that there was a really nice documentary film by Alexandra Pelosi where she did just what I was talking about. A really funny thing happened at the end of the film where one of the people she filmed made a comment about Nancy Pelosi's grandchildren and he didn't realize that they were right on the beach where she was filming. She brought him over and introduced the two children.
Post by: faberryman on November 11, 2018, 10:42:40 am
I don't know how much I will be able to do during the winter months but I do want to go to some of the parts of West Virginia that are economically desolate and see what things are like; a lot of these are only about 3-4 hours away by car. It's too easy to live inside one's bubble.Not more gratuitous images of poor people and economic desolation.
Post by: stamper on November 11, 2018, 10:47:31 am
Not more gratuitous images of poor people and economic desolation.
Is that a statement or a question?
Post by: Rob C on November 11, 2018, 11:22:40 am
Do some documentary photography where you live or can visit. Think a little outside the box and get out of your comfort zone. I don't know how much I will be able to do during the winter months but I do want to go to some of the parts of West Virginia that are economically desolate and see what things are like; a lot of these are only about 3-4 hours away by car. It's too easy to live inside one's bubble.
EDIT: meant to add that there was a really nice documentary film by Alexandra Pelosi where she did just what I was talking about. A really funny thing happened at the end of the film where one of the people she filmed made a comment about Nancy Pelosi's grandchildren and he didn't realize that they were right on the beach where she was filming. She brought him over and introduced the two children.
Photographically speaking, I no longer have a comfort zone; I did what I did when it was career, and photography, to be brutally honest about it, inspires me less and less to do it.
I derive pleasure from looking at the works of my favourites, and that's about it. It doesn't take much time to discover that people, in general, are not much good at it, which reduces the potential value of the Internet a great deal. One soon runs out of sites where repeat visits offer much joy.
I have two sets of "favourites" lists that were built up over the lives of several computers; now and again I revisit these, and after checking some sites out again, I just delete them. You'd be surprised how many quite successful photographers have left their sites in limbo, neither updating them nor having the heart to delete them once and for all. It seems that it is an occupation that can buoy you up for years, and then, one fine day, just run out of steam altogether.
It's not really surprising, when you think about it. Photography is actually quite hard, labour-intensive work, even if just sitting at a computer. Your body may not be doing much other than harming itself, but the brain and nervous system are both working hard. It's all well and good when it's business, but when you realise that nobody really gives a damn whether you take another snap or not, yourself probably included, there's a certain amount of madness in keeping on truckin' like the rabbit in the battery commercials. Of course, stopping leaves that dreaded vacuum, and so the treadmill starts to turn again.
Projects simply provide focus; of themselves they do nothing to provide deeper justification for the sweat and tears. This will probably sound strange to the casual or hobbyist shooter, but then that person inhabits a different memory/experience space that has little in common with its alternative. I wouldn't really expect a Formula 1 driver would get much kick from driving down to the local supermarket, or a deep sea diver to spend a lot of time at the local swimming pool.
Post by: KLaban on November 11, 2018, 11:51:22 am
Post by: Rob C on November 11, 2018, 12:18:15 pm
Rob, it's that time of year.
Right again, twice.
:-)
Post by: KLaban on November 11, 2018, 12:19:25 pm
Here's hoping you can find a more positive outlook in the near future.
Post by: faberryman on November 11, 2018, 12:24:25 pm
Projects simply provide focus; of themselves they do nothing to provide deeper justification for the sweat and tears. This will probably sound strange to the casual or hobbyist shooter, but then that person inhabits a different memory/experience space that has little in common with its alternative. I wouldn't really expect a Formula 1 driver would get much kick from driving down to the local supermarket, or a deep sea diver to spend a lot of time at the local swimming pool.I guess I am fortunate that I have never been a race car driver or deep see diver, so metaphorically driving to the grocery store or spending time at the swimming pool, particularly when I am working on a new photographic project provides much needed satisfaction. Deep justification (or justification of any kind) is not necessary.
Post by: 32BT on November 11, 2018, 01:25:44 pm
Rob, I could counter with positives of my own but what's the point, it's not going to change how you feel about your yourself or your attitude towards photography and life in general.
Here's hoping you can find a more positive outlook in the near future.
Well, you could always send him the red batch thingy! That should cheer him up some. Probably doesn't even need the camera attached behind it. He has no use for it anyway. Unless of course his excuse for procrastinating his roadtrip is finally sold at a reasonable price. Maybe we should do a crowdfunding campaign, just to see if he dares to put our money where his mouth is...
;-P
Post by: Two23 on November 11, 2018, 01:31:19 pm
This will probably sound strange to the casual or hobbyist shooter, but then that person inhabits a different memory/experience space that has little in common with its alternative. I wouldn't really expect a Formula 1 driver would get much kick from driving down to the local supermarket, or a deep sea diver to spend a lot of time at the local swimming pool.
I've come to think that the secret to happiness is to be content with where you are and what you have. I've spent my life being in awe of what a miracle it is that I exist at all, and what's more knowing that I exist. I think people get caught so up in the trifles of the day to day that they don't appreciate what a fluke they are in the universe and fail to appreciate that. Yesterday was a dreary, cold day with a vicious north wind and yet I was out with my camera (Chamonix 4x5 and Ilford FP4.) I stood alone beside a derelict grain elevator and abandoned railroad tracks in a small fading town. I was thinking of how once this was a thriving village, before that open wild prairie, and before that it was covered by a sheet of ice a half mile thick. What will it look like 30,000 years from now? Maybe that's the secret to happiness--not losing one's sense of perspective and wonder of it all? I still find a great beauty in the world. Sometimes I find it right on Youtube, carefully hidden amongst the cat videos :
Mozart Piano Concerto #26, Larghetto:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llRpSkA5Sys
Kent in SD
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on November 11, 2018, 01:45:44 pm
I wouldn't really expect a Formula 1 driver would get much kick from driving down to the local supermarket,I think Stirling Moss was quite famous for getting lots of speeding tickets in 'normal' driving on English roads.
Post by: Rob C on November 11, 2018, 03:48:43 pm
Rob, I could counter with positives of my own but what's the point, it's not going to change how you feel about your yourself or your attitude towards photography and life in general.
Here's hoping you can find a more positive outlook in the near future.
I don't think it has anything at all to do with being positive or negative, as a mindset or person; it just is. Other aspects of life have little bearing on it, really. The act and value of making a picture is very much exaggerated as a thing, an action. (I'm speaking, again, from the non-commercial point of view.)
There's the notion that we are sometimes bursting with this creative essence that shrieks for manifestation in some image or another. But does it? Or is it, pehaps, just a sense of obligation that we have to pursue because of the fact that we've bought all this stuff and feel deeply guilty if we don't employ it? It's certainly true that when very young, life is new, you believe in everything being possible - my 1960s - and go out to discover if you were right or not. That doesn't last forever, that sense of excitement. Especially when you draw your pension and know too many hospital staff too well.
That's a time when, as Kent describes, you are inclined to look at the greater world and its very nature, and particularly at your part within it. Suddenly, your anima, your concept of what you and your life are shrinks to a microdot. I'll recount a little incident concerning my mother. She came to live here for a period during her 80s, and one morning I found her in the corridor in tears. I asked her what on Earth was the matter, and she replied, simply, I feel I've lost my identity. I didn't understand. In that decade myself, I do; only too well. The certainties of everything collapse at your feet, and you realise that that went before was mostly a fluke, a turn of the cards, and that in the end you are but another grain of sand on the beach or, if lucky, a cowrie shell instead. A funny irony struck me last week: about a year ago I found this stationery store that sells a large calendar with space at each numeral to allow notes: I snapped it on the cellphone and went off to the shop to buy a replacement for next year (you see? positive thinking!). As I showed the lady the image, I realised that many years ago I was handing out my own calendars at this time of year... now, I'm hoping that I can find one that suits my needs! Oh boy, let's go photograph some more dirty windows and headless mannequins, and play at Saul!
Today was a beautifully sunny day, so I didn't have to go out and look for pictures, and just had lunch on the terrace instead. Tonight it's freezing my ass off. There was a saying in Scotland about Edinburgh women being all fur coat and no knickers; well, that's how a good, sunny winter's day is out here for the average retiree female: bikini through lunchtime, and layers of sweaters after four. I guess that was something worth working towards.
;-)
Post by: RSL on November 11, 2018, 04:42:49 pm
I've come to think that the secret to happiness is to be content with where you are and what you have. I've spent my life being in awe of what a miracle it is that I exist at all, and what's more knowing that I exist. I think people get caught so up in the trifles of the day to day that they don't appreciate what a fluke they are in the universe and fail to appreciate that. Yesterday was a dreary, cold day with a vicious north wind and yet I was out with my camera (Chamonix 4x5 and Ilford FP4.) I stood alone beside a derelict grain elevator and abandoned railroad tracks in a small fading town. I was thinking of how once this was a thriving village, before that open wild prairie, and before that it was covered by a sheet of ice a half mile thick. What will it look like 30,000 years from now? Maybe that's the secret to happiness--not losing one's sense of perspective and wonder of it all? I still find a great beauty in the world. Sometimes I find it right on Youtube, carefully hidden amongst the cat videos :
Mozart Piano Concerto #26, Larghetto:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llRpSkA5Sys
Kent in SD
Well said, Kent. I too have spent my life in awe of the universe and my place in it. When I began flying fighters I really didn’t expect to remain in the world long. I had some terribly close calls, but again and again something at the heart of the universe lifted me out of danger – and certainly not because I deserved salvation. Here’s an example from gunnery school that I put in the history I wrote for my kids and grandkids:
“Before you accepted an airplane for flight you'd do a thorough walk around to make sure everything was where it was supposed to be. Checking the elevators wasn't part of that inspection, but one morning we were getting ready for a high-angle dive bombing mission and as I walked past the tail of my F80 I reached up and casually gave the elevators a flip. They locked in the up position. I went back to operations and reported the problem. They immediately grounded all the F80's and ran them through a thorough inspection. Mine turned out to be the only one with a problem. A counterweight had broken loose and was floating around inside the horizontal stabilizer. If I'd flown that airplane I might have ended up the same way [one of my close friends] did.” [who augered in when the stick came off in his hand when he went to pull up on a high-angle dive-bombing mission.] There was nothing in the checklist about flipping the elevators, and I don’t remember ever doing it before that walk-around, though I always did it after that walk-around.
It’s all a miracle. And you’re here in the heart of that miracle. Henri Cartier-Bresson understood where we are when he said, “Looking is everything.” You look with your eyes, and your ears, and your mind, and your heart, and the incredible beauty of it all is there at your fingertips. And unless you’ve closed your eyes to it all, that’s what you put into your photograph or your painting our your poem or your music. I'm not talking about pretty. I'm talking about beauty, which is in every atom of this magnificent creation.
The Mozart is, of course, magnificent. So is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3EZoDr6kqM
Post by: dreed on November 27, 2018, 09:11:34 am
If the best you can contribute is a complaint then why post?
There are many photography related threads in The Coffee Corner that have no other rightful home on LuLa.
One that comes to mind is this:
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=68125.0
I would encourage everyone to read more and read wider in the hope that people doing so would have more interesting topics of an abstract nature to share here.
Post by: Rob C on November 27, 2018, 12:13:24 pm
These threads are what we all make of them collectively.
If the best you can contribute is a complaint then why post?
There are many photography related threads in The Coffee Corner that have no other rightful home on LuLa.
One that comes to mind is this:
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=68125.0
I would encourage everyone to read more and read wider in the hope that people doing so would have more interesting topics of an abstract nature to share here.
Good grief, man, that's the job of the Opposition!
Don't you believe in democracy anymore? (That's begging the question, by the way.)
;-)