Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: rastas on November 01, 2018, 07:47:32 pm
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When the GFX50s came out I bought it. It didn't have a feature I needed - a feature described below - so I immediately returned the camera. I want to buy the gfx-100 when it comes out and I hope Fuji can improve a feature related to its wireless usage.
I'm a professional photographer and shoot hotels (architecture) across the country. When shooting, my technique is to compose the camera, lock it down on tripod, and shoot several frames of the space, with different lighting setups.
To successfully do this, I need for the camera to be controlled remotely, wirelessly, not tethered, using an ipad. I currently use a 5dsr and tilt shift lenses, and use the camranger to control the camera.
I WANT TO DO THIS WITH THE GFX100. Specifically, I want to be able to do the following, with a new and improved Fuji app and BETTER wifi system in the camera:
-Control the camera's aperture, shutter speed and shutter release remotely. (can do with the current fuji pp)
-use live view and PINCH to zoom or double tap to zoom in, check focus, move around the image in live view. (Cant do with the fuji app)
-be able to see the image shot immediately or almost immediately after taking a photo - the actual image that the camera captures (where I can see the effects of flash for example) and not a freeze image of the live view stream. Doesn't have to be a raw file, just a low res jpg. (cant do this with the fuji app)
-be able to quickly and easily scroll through recently shot images, without having to go to another place within the app, click on several very small images, download them to ipad, then preview them. Thats' slow and cumbersome. (cant do this with the current app)
Basically I want your GFX to do what I currently do with the canon/nikon + camranger solution.
If you guys can do this, you would rule the world. I realize you have an app already that does some of these things, but not all of them. It is a weak, simple and non professional app. I need something for professional usage, to go along with the GFX 100.
While your at it make a couple tilt shift lenses (ha).
Please consider implementing this kind of solution. It does NOT exist now with your GFX camera, and have been told by smart computer engineer type people that the current wifi protocol on gfx doesn't allow for some of these features described above; if that's the case I hope you can make that protocol more like canon or nikon's wifi protocol (where it pushes images on the fly).
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I second this...but I also highly second a nice wide shift lens too...
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The GFX 50r has added Bluetooth support, which might make this possible with the 50r.
If Fuji implements it with the 50r, they will have a chance to work out the issues by the time the 100s comes out.
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I'm guessing that they consider shift lenses as niche and perhaps something to add later on, but Fuji could well be in the same position that Canon were in 2005 to corner the entire architecture/interiors market.
No one makes a 30mm lens with movements (discounting the Schneider 32) and it was that original 24TS combined with a giant 16mp sensor that meant that the majority of people used Canon from thereon, even when Nikon produced a better camera. One 30mm shift lens, and then perhaps a 23mm later on, and they could own the market with people leaving a Canon/Sony setup on one side, and Phase/tech cam on the other. One simple lens and they're there.
There may be less architecture pros than landscape/wedding/portrait people but they spend a lot on the best possible kit and without that one lens the GFX just doesn't quite get to the point of being the undeniably best tool for the job. Packing now for a shoot, taking the GFX plus the A7R3 which is still necessary.
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I still have a tech cam...but for workflow reasons I’ve considered the gfx with the tse24 lens... which also means I would end up buying a bunch of their other lenses since I only have room for one mf system and also shoot product and such....I don’t want to use an actus or adapters, etc... nothing is better than a solid native solution. Only Hasselblad has offered the hts to kind of fill the gap...but you still can’t get the solid 30mm and 23mm perspective control views needed for interior and exterior architecture.
Not on th app...I end up using my Olympus e-m1mk2 a lot for the reason listed in the first post. I can control via the app and light paint without extra gadgets and it all just works.
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One 30mm shift lens, and then perhaps a 23mm later on, and they could own the market with people leaving a Canon/Sony setup on one side, and Phase/tech cam on the other. One simple lens and they're there.
Yes!
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I still have a tech cam...but for workflow reasons I’ve considered the gfx with the tse24 lens... which also means I would end up buying a bunch of their other lenses since I only have room for one mf system and also shoot product and such....I don’t want to use an actus or adapters, etc... nothing is better than a solid native solution. Only Hasselblad has offered the hts to kind of fill the gap...but you still can’t get the solid 30mm and 23mm perspective control views needed for interior and exterior architecture.
Not on th app...I end up using my Olympus e-m1mk2 a lot for the reason listed in the first post. I can control via the app and light paint without extra gadgets and it all just works.
I agree completely. As a long time Canon TSE user for architecture, Fuji ticks the quality/value/usability boxes lacking up to now with other MF systems. If they would produce 23mm & 30mm shift lenses, perhaps a 42-45mm eventually as well they would have a winner for architecture.
Another useful feature for the 100mp camera would be the ability to shoot at half and quarter resolution. Many photographers shooting products, portraits etc don't need 100MP all the time.
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+ 1 more. Fuji - please give as native tilt shift lenses. Around 30mm first, and then around 24mm.
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I would also like tilt shift lenses. Something in the normal range would be my first need.
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I second this...but I also highly second a nice wide shift lens too...
a wide shift lens that will do 100MP even shifted and only be used by a few will cost ...a lot...
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But not as much as a Phase back...
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Would it be viable and useful to offer a tilt-shift adaptor for use with existing lenses designed for larger formats, 645 and up?
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Would it be viable and useful to offer a tilt-shift adaptor for use with existing lenses designed for larger formats, 645 and up?
There is not much choice on the wide end, because the sensor is 44x33mm the old wides are not as wide. Contax 645 35mm 3.5 is one of the best lenses in that range I think. But still not wide enough for a lot of cases. And you have to control electronic aperture AND be able to shift at the same time. And you have to correct for distorsion. We have been working with compromises for such a long time. I think it's time for a really good solution now. And I really set my hope into Fuji here.
For so many use cases in photography there are tons of great lenses to choose from. But when you need shift on the wide end it comes down to Canon or Nikon shift lenses or pancake cameras with phase one backs (with its drawbacks like the necessity of LCCs). I think it's time for something really good for that group of photographers now. Expecially in that situation where Canon and Nikon will probably focus all their lens designing capacities on their new mirrorless systems. I do not expect an update to their wide shift lenses in the next 5 years, because they need an all new set of basic primes and zooms for the majority photographers (we were lucky to get the new TS-E 50mm and 90mm before mirrorless came to canon).
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But when you need shift on the wide end it comes down to Canon or Nikon shift lenses or pancake cameras with phase one backs (with its drawbacks like the necessity of LCCs).
The IQ4, for many users/uses may well eliminate the "necessity of LCC".
https://phaseoneiq4.com/dt-iq4-tech-camera-test-sneak-peak/
I'd also note that if you do an LCC with your Canon or Nikon shift lens, with movements applied, on your preferred small-format camera you may be surprised at what you see. Color cast is not limited to medium format backs; though it is certainly more pronounced on an IQ3 back than on a small-format camera.
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The IQ4, for many users/uses may well eliminate the "necessity of LCC".
https://phaseoneiq4.com/dt-iq4-tech-camera-test-sneak-peak/
I'd also note that if you do an LCC with your Canon or Nikon shift lens, with movements applied, on your preferred small-format camera you may be surprised at what you see. Color cast is not limited to medium format backs; though it is certainly more pronounced on an IQ3 back than on a small-format camera.
Hi Doug,
I was positively surprised too about the teaser images from the IQ4150 you posted. The new BSI Sony sensors seem to be quiet a progress. But I am not yet sure if the medium to larger shifts on wide angles are free enough of color cast to get by without an LCC. We will see. You said yourself that it is not yet clear when users can safely skip an LCC. I liked it very much how open you commented on that in your camera testing.
But even if that would be the case with the IQ4: as far as I know Phase One does not (and will not) offer a 44x33mm 100MP back with the modern BSI sensor that reduces the color cast issue so much. That leaves only the ridiculously expensive 150MP back. So for all but a small minority of photographers the longing for a cheaper high quality solution remains. I can understand that you speak in favour of the Phase One solution. But this thread was about: "Fujifilm GFX camera makers, please read..."
About color cast on the GFX and the 5DsR with shift lenses: I see some on my PC-Distagon 35mm at extreme shifts, but I have no issues concerning color cast with the Canon TS-Es. And I look at my images carefully. I can handle that without an LCC for my use cases.
Regards -
Marc
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.... I need for the camera to be controlled remotely, wirelessly, not tethered, using an ipad. I currently use a 5dsr and tilt shift lenses, and use the camranger to control the camera.
I WANT TO DO THIS WITH THE GFX100.
If you guys can do this, you would rule the world ...
You mean that you want to do what the Hasselblad X1D does out of the box?
I just did a series of architecture shots that way using the canon TSE24 and the iPhone running Phocus Mobile to create the HDR by dialing up different shutter times.
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The x1d with adapters means electronic shutter only unless I’m mistaken. Another drawback to a true solution.
The hts was a good idea except you lose out a bit on the wide end. I still think nothing beats a native solution.
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The 19mm PCE nikkor is a very fine lens that would do well on this Fuji- don't know if there are adapters available..?
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The 19mm PCE nikkor is a very fine lens that would do well on this Fuji- don't know if there are adapters available..?
Steelsring is working on one: http://www.steelsring.com/en/nikon-f-gfx-smart-af-adapter/
I agree. A friend of mine and I compared the PC-E 19 on the D850 vs. TS-E 17 on 5DsR.
The PC-E 19 is better than the TS-E 17. Resolution is much better in the corners when you shift. It will be interesting to see how much shift will be possible on the GFX with the Nikon.
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+1 for wide tilt shift lenses
Pixel-shift would be welcomed too...
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Bob shaw: you wrote: "You mean that you want to do what the Hasselblad X1D does out of the box?
I just did a series of architecture shots that way using the canon TSE24 and the iPhone running Phocus Mobile to create the HDR by dialing up different shutter times."
I owned the x1d and it WILL NOT do this out of the box, at least when you attach tilt shift lenses to it using an adapter, which I did. Doing so requires the use of the camera's electronic shutter, and flash cant be used.
Back to fuji fixing things....
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The x1d with adapters means electronic shutter only unless I’m mistaken. Another drawback to a true solution.
The hts was a good idea except you lose out a bit on the wide end. I still think nothing beats a native solution.
Well true, there are always limitations.
With an electronic shutter you can't shoot moving things or use flash. If you are using a tilt shift lens then you are probably shooting something that doesn't move much and you can get around flash with multiple exposures.
The limitation of the alternative is that it is size and weight and cost is prohibitive for most situations. An HTS unit for example is twice the cost of a Canon TSE and then you need a lens.
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+1 for wide tilt shift lenses
.......or a tech cam solution to use the Rodenstock 23, 28 and 32, the Schneider 28 XL, the Nikon 19 + 24, the Canon 17 + 24 and maybe the new "Super Fujinon PC 23" with sensor movements.....
Regards,
Ben
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Normal use of the Rodies seems unlikely given the flange distance and mount throat diameter.
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None of the Schneider or Rody wides will work on a Tech camera with a GFX. It's not a tech camera issue but rather a GFX issue as the sensor is located too deep for the wide lenses to physically reach infinity.
Victor
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None of the Schneider or Rody wides will work on a Tech camera with a GFX. It's not a tech camera issue but rather a GFX issue as the sensor is located too deep for the wide lenses to physically reach infinity.
Victor
I know this seems unlikely now, but if the Fuji establishes itself the 3d party houses may make a "splayed Fuji" eg. as a V mount.
The demand from product and tech shooters would probably justify it.
One might even see a FrankenFujiBlad magazine :)
Edmund
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What we don't is how Fuji would play the shift lenses game (if they do as I hope).
Their G lenses are not optically corrected for distortion, at least not completely. They rely on software profiles for correcting it.
For shift lenses that will be a bit tricky. There are several options:
1. Correct them optically for distortion so well that the rest is not perceivable in most cases (like the Canon TS-E 24mm II).
That would give them less freedom in lens design. They would have to balance distortion and other image quality factors.
2. Correct distortion in software afterwards.
Capture One would do a great job on this while Lightroom is not able to correct distortion on shifted lenses.
But you need information about the amount of shift used (like for the Rodenstock lenses for digital backs).
That would leave it to the user to make notes (or reconstruct) the amount of movements used.
3. The shift mechanism in the lens could record the amount of movements and pass it via exif. Corrections could be aplied automatically.
Extremely convenient, but not an easy thing to do that reliably I suspect. But that would be amazing.
What I dream of:
A compact shift adapter for the G mount (a mini view camera, e.g. like the Alpa FPS lens module for Contax 645 but with geared movements). On the lens side a new mount for lenses with the necessary large image circles. They would not need a shift element in every lens (which raises costs, with all the necessary mechanical and electronical stuff to record movements). Make that an open standard so that other manufacturers can provide lenses too (like Edmund proposed).
They have a tradition for such a solution: the GX 680 series did something similar.
Probably a dream, but a nice one...
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Has anybody tried the Hasselblad HTS adapter with Hasselblad H-series lenses, on the Fuji GFX cameras with the Fuji-Hasselblad adapter?
With the widest Hasselblad lens (24mm), that gives you a 24*1.5*24/32=27mm in 35 mm lens equivalent terms (vertical FoV). It's not ultra wide, but it's pretty wide, plus you have full shifts.
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Has anybody tried the Hasselblad HTS adapter with Hasselblad H-series lenses, on the Fuji GFX cameras with the Fuji-Hasselblad adapter?
With the widest Hasselblad lens (24mm), that gives you a 24*1.5*24/32=27mm in 35 mm lens equivalent terms (vertical FoV). It's not ultra wide, but it's pretty wide, plus you have full shifts.
Of course but his issue is that the camera doesn't work remotely wifi.
If you are going to use a Hasselblad lens and a Hasselblad HTS then you could use a Hasselblad camera and then the software would work (:-)
(Plus you have the advantage of the leaf shutter lens.)
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Ah yes, sorry for derailing this thread. I was wondering more for myself.
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One more for the wishlist to Fuji GFX makers:
It would be great if 35mm crop mode would allow different aspect ratios too. Not only 3:2.
One of the great advantages of the GFX is its ability to mask the aspect ratios in viewfinder. Why not in 35mm crop mode?
Especially with the upcoming GFX100s there would still be plenty of resolution left if you crop 35mm further to 4:3 or other apect ratios.
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Well then why only a center crop? Why not a digital shift...you get a cropped image...but you can compose on camera and moving that crop up and down or left and right to simulate shift would be excellent. Sure you can tether in c1, Mark your crop and then all the rest show that...but doing this in the field on the camera would be even better.
When you have 50+ megapixels, it becomes easier to do this and still have a decent file left over.
And yes I agree...ide love to have a 4:3 aspect 35mm crop option instead of only 3:2 for instance.
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I know this seems unlikely now, but if the Fuji establishes itself the 3d party houses may make a "splayed Fuji" eg. as a V mount.
The demand from product and tech shooters would probably justify it.
Can you explain how this would work?
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Can you explain how this would work?
Design a lens with a Hasselblad V or Pentax 645 mount and then produce a separate geared shift adapter or use with something like the Cambo Actus, so it can be used on different cameras by simply changing the adapter. It would also work on the 645z as a regular manual focus lens.
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Has anybody tried the Hasselblad HTS adapter with Hasselblad H-series lenses, on the Fuji GFX cameras with the Fuji-Hasselblad adapter?
I’ve just had the opportunity to spend a day trying the GFX 50S with, amongst other things, my existing HC lenses and the HTS.
I have nothing wider than the HC35mm but put that on and the 80mm for a few frames. With the latest firmware it worked flawlessly shooting with the leaf shutter and the aperture and shutter controlled from the camera. I was tethered in Capture One v12.
I shot a couple of LCC frames with the 35mm with tilts and some shift in case they were of interest to anyone here. I can make the RAWs available. I didn’t see any noticeable colour casts with that or the 80mm.
You do need to reverse the tripod bracket on the adapter so it points backwards under the camera body and doesn’t foul the HTS though.
I also compared the HC120 macro to the Fujinon 120 macro with a without the extension tube that gives 1:1. On food and jewellery rather than the usual trees in the distance. I can post a few images in a new thread if they are of interest.
Tony
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I would be interested to see your results, especially from the macro lens comparison.
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This thread has been really interesting so I wanted to keep it going.
-fuji please make a tilt shift lens
-heard today from someone who knows someone that Fuji is aware of my request for a better wifi tethering option. And for a more accurate electronic level feature.
-there's a company I learned about and have been talking about that is currently making, among other things, a 23mm APO swiss lens, along with a tilt shift adapter, a 110mm apo lens (or 120mm) and a Actus looking "camera" called the Akrobat. I have hopes that this 23mm apo will be sharper than even the 24mm TSE Canon and may be a partial solution for a wide shift on the GFX 100.
I think things will get better in 2019 for photographers wanting to shoot architecture with the gfx 100.
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The "standard" architecture focal length should be around 32mm for the GFXs 33x44 sensor IMO. So, a good 32mm shift lens for the GFX would indeed be a game changer for me, too
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I'm sure this has been answered before, but I could not find anything on the subject after a quick search: is the 100MP sensor of the upcoming GFX100 the same BSI/low color cast design as in the 150MP IQ4?
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Yes it is. Or at least thanks what the Sony papers on the sensor appear to be. The 150NP and 100Mp are exactly the same design.
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Wow, great news! I hope there will also be a "low Price" digital back with the same sensor.
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Certainly not from phase one m, who left the 44x33 sensor market.
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Too bad. I guess the only option would be to take a GFX100 or future 100mp Hasselblad X body and somehow "lift" the sensor a couple of centimeters up, so that it can be used with Schneider or Rodenstock wide angles in a Cambo Actus setup.
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Certainly not from phase one m, who left the 44x33 sensor market.
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According to Doug they make an aerial camera with this sensor.
Phase has become a really wierd company. It's clear that the $20K or so they would charge for a crop-back system is not enough anymore to sustain their operation, so they've gone up market. Frankly, I think Fuji are at the moment the safest investment in MF, like them or not, with Hassy becoming an exotic brand like Leica, and Phase reserved for extremely succesful individuals and institutions.
Edmund
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According to Doug they make an aerial camera with this sensor.
Phase has become a really wierd company. It's clear that the $20K or so they would charge for a crop-back system is not enough anymore to sustain their operation, so they've gone up market.
Phase One sells a large variety of systems for well under $20k. In fact, we have refurbished digital backs (https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/product-category/refurbished-backs-bodies-lenses/pre-owned-phase-one-digital-backs/) with body and lens kits with full warranty and dealer support for under $10k, which can be used indefinitely or, later on, traded in by the user at a favorable rate toward a flagship model.
Something about the phrase "sustain their operation" seems to imply financial distress (I acknowledge I could be reading in something that is not intended), so it's worth pointing out that Phase One's financials are public record and they have been profitable every single year since 2008 (when nobody was profitable) and has grown significantly over that time – it's hard to find any other camera company with that record.
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Still, for me it's not so great that five years ago I owned a Leaf Aptus 75 that worked perfectly with my Schneider/Rodenstock lenses with 20mm shift. And now, with my LEaf Credo 40, shifts above 15mm are highly problematic and need a lot of retouching. It would be great to have a reasonably (sub 10K) priced system that had both in-back live view and good wide angle capabilities.
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Too bad. I guess the only option would be to take a GFX100 or future 100mp Hasselblad X body and somehow "lift" the sensor a couple of centimeters up, so that it can be used with Schneider or Rodenstock wide angles in a Cambo Actus setup.
+1
I'm also hoping for a 100 MP, 33 mm x 44 mm, BSI back.
As an industrial and architectural photographer I prefer the 33 x 44 sensors.
Regards,
Ben
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Given the benefits of BSI for tech cam use, it’s a shame P1 doesn’t also offer a 33x44mm 100mp BSI back (excluding the industrial aerial system). There’s a market for people that want BSI for things like tech cams but don’t have the need or budget for the IQ4 150mp (myself included). They’d probably sell a few, even at $20k/back.
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".....I guess the only option would be to take a GFX100 or future 100mp Hasselblad X body and somehow "lift" the sensor a couple of centimeters up, so that it can be used with Schneider or Rodenstock wide angles in a Cambo Actus setup......"
Can you explain more what you mean here please?
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".....I guess the only option would be to take a GFX100 or future 100mp Hasselblad X body and somehow "lift" the sensor a couple of centimeters up, so that it can be used with Schneider or Rodenstock wide angles in a Cambo Actus setup......"
Can you explain more what you mean here please?
The Cambo Actus GFX does not allow for the use of „real“ wide angles, since you can‘t focus to infinity. Lifting the sensor would probably fix that, if you could find a camera mechanic to do that. Of course it would render the GFX unusable as a normal camera.
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The Cambo Actus GFX does not allow for the use of „real“ wide angles, since you can‘t focus to infinity. Lifting the sensor would probably fix that, if you could find a camera mechanic to do that. Of course it would render the GFX unusable as a normal camera.
If someone here is really interested in some solution like this, they should get in touch with Fuji who seem very interested in modularizing the GFX system in various ways, and who might still mod the current prototypes in a way to facilitate third-part rework that allows users to bypass the lens mount.
I assume that it will be comparatively easy to extract the sensor of the GFX-100 as it will be cleanly mounted in an IBIS cage. My belief is that a competent workshop could "simply" plug in extension cords to all the interface connections. Liveview and electronic shutter could still be used.
Being able to quickly mechancically extract the sensor or even the whole cage, and connectors that can be easily unplugged by end users would be helpful. Ideally there should be mountpoints to enable the sensor board to be attached to an external backboard.
Edmund
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If someone here is really interested in some solution like this, they should get in touch with Fuji who seem very interested in modularizing the GFX system in various ways, and who might still mod the current prototypes in a way to facilitate third-part rework that allows users to bypass the lens mount.
I assume that it will be comparatively easy to extract the sensor of the GFX-100 as it will be cleanly mounted in an IBIS cage. My belief is that a competent workshop could "simply" plug in extension cords to all the interface connections. Liveview and electronic shutter could still be used.
Being able to quickly mechancically extract the sensor or even the whole cage, and connectors that can be easily unplugged by end users would be helpful. Ideally there should be mountpoints to enable the sensor board to be attached to an external backboard.
Edmund
How much will the GFX 100 be, below 10.000,- hopefully? Maybe a company like lifepixel.com, who already does aftermarket modifications of SLR sensor glass, would be interested.
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Maybe it’s just me...but the terms aftermarket modification and 10k+ cameras don’t come together well for me.
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Maybe it’s just me...but the terms aftermarket modification and 10k+ cameras don’t come together well for me.
No, it's not. There seems to be a whole mass of people who pay the price of a small car for a camera that doesn't have the basic features that they need.
Then they do it again.
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"lifting the sensor"... this kind of hack interests me... I made the worlds first mirrorless camera in my garage about 10 years ago by shaving the mirrorbox on a 5dmk2 to shorten flange distance.... hmmm. i'll have to look into this.
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So back to this one again. Now that the 100 is out I'd love to order one but the GFX system is still being held back too much for me to justify it, very specifically by firmware design that means we can't adjust shutter speed whilst tethered. Not a huge issue for most but critical for architecture and interiors, for which the 100 would be perfect.
The other problem is that, with native shift lenses not yet released, we'd need to continue to use Canon's versions for the time being. With 100mp there's plenty of room to crop the 24mm back to it's intended focal length but the '35mm' function is limited to 3:2 ratio. Were this 4:3 (and ideally any ratio selectable in normal mode) then we could jump right in and use it, but it's still hobbled.
A simple fix for Fuji perhaps before the final release? Many, many architectural photographs are seeing this as a reason not to switch and make the jump. That, and the, erm....app. What ever happened to a usable app....?
So close.
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I made the worlds first mirrorless camera in my garage about 10 years ago
apparently you have no clue that by the time that you allegedly did his Panasonic G1 was already on sale everywhere for about 1 year (not to mention that engineering samples were made way before that