Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Asset Management => Topic started by: hasselbladfan on October 28, 2018, 03:04:40 am
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Any recommendations?
It is time to put some more order in my Hassie / Leica S files.
Thanks.
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Before you dive into any suggestions you might get here, keep an eye on what the folks at Serif.com (https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/) will come up with, after they have launched their third application (Affinity Photo, Affinity Designer, and Affinity Publisher now in public Beta) for both Mac and Windows platforms. They have not announced or promised anything yet, but they do have their priorities straight. They first concentrate on getting things right, before embarking on the next challenge. A cataloging application has been mentioned as being on their radar.
The issue is that one usually has to immerse oneself in the specific solution that certain companies offer to use them optimally. That makes it difficult to switch to something different if you don't like it after a while, or when requirements change. Some solutions are for very large catalogs/collections, but a bit overkill for more modest requirements.
Cheers,
Bart
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Bedankt, Bart, I will check it out.
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I use Daminion (https://daminion.net/). The single user version is bit hard to locate on the website now. Powerful, easy to use, great support and does not cost the earth.
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Well, how much does it cost and where can you find the single-user version?
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What editing tools do you currently use? How many photos are we talking about (disk space or file count). Most folks end up with Lightroom, but there are other products that work better if you're using tools like CaptureOne or such. Things like Mylio exist as well, but I haven't looked into 3FR support in a few years. PC or Mac?
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Oh, and this should be moved into the DAM board - https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?board=57.0
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There is free software for that need: https://www.darktable.org
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Well, how much does it cost and where can you find the single-user version?
https://daminion.net/order/buy-daminion-2
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Not bad at all. Really nice. Useful if you are Windows person. Unfortunately I am a Linux/macOS person.
Anything similar that runs on Linux server side with mac client?
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Any recommendations?
It is time to put some more order in my Hassie / Leica S files.
Why would you not go for Lightroom?
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So this is where the 'what are you using it for' comes into play. A good DAM isn't going to be a good editing platform. There are things like https://www.resourcespace.com/ but for a single person I don't see any way it's possible to make the overhead worth it.
If you license your images to others, keeping track of that is huge, and a platform that helps would be important and worth the investment. Are you dealing with a few terabytes of data or more? Are you editing in Phocus or Photoshop?
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A cataloging application has been mentioned as being on their radar.
It will be interesting to see if Serif chose to offer a DAM product, but it would be at least two years away which isn't much help for the OP now.
As John says, Lightroom does a pretty good job of image management for most individuals. Also it writes a lot of it's management data into standard locations (captions, rating etc) so can be picked up by other software if you need to change at a later date.
A logical file structure and naming system is the basic ground work of organisation. Again LR can make organising things on disk pretty straight forward too. If you do choose LR, make sure you read up how to import and manipulate file structures from within LR, the one thing that can throw up difficulties is moving files around outside of your chosen DAM solution once you've started cataloging.
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One of the keys to Lightroom's success is that it combines DAM with adjustment. So when you manage raw files, you see how they look with your adjustments.
We take that for granted, but with pure DAM apps you're always saying "which one did I process as B&W?", "I wish I could see what's in that underexposed shot", and the workarounds are so-very 2006. Also, single user DAM products are thin on the ground - there's no money in them. So unless the OP needs multi-user functionality, it's hard to see why Lightroom wouldn't be the choice.
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Any recommendations?
It is time to put some more order in my Hassie / Leica S files.
Might be worth while keeping an eye on Photo Mechanic 6 which is due out before the end of the year and will add DAM features to the current version.
Photo Mechanic is an extremely good program for general file management and if they get the DAM right (which they seem to have been working on for about 12 years !!) it should be a good option.
Cheers,
Graham
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Imatch at photools.com
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Might be worth while keeping an eye on Photo Mechanic 6 which is due out before the end of the year and will add DAM features to the current version.
Photo Mechanic is an extremely good program for general file management and if they get the DAM right (which they seem to have been working on for about 12 years !!) it should be a good option.
Do you really believe that?
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Do you really believe that?
I see no reason not to, while always allowing for the unexpected.
They have always refused to give a time table, other than they were still working on it, until earlier this year when they said by the end of the year.
In August they confirmed the end of the year "even if it kills us"
On 28th October they again confirmed they were still on track for a release before the end of the year.
And betas are already with users.
This sounds fairly promising to me.
Cheers,
Graham
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And:
Skylum teases Luminar DAM module
https://www.dpreview.com/news/7564492020/skylum-teases-luminar-dam-module-in-new-videos
Cheers,
Bart
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One of the keys to Lightroom's success is that it combines DAM with adjustment. So when you manage raw files, you see how they look with your adjustments.
We take that for granted, but with pure DAM apps you're always saying "which one did I process as B&W?", "I wish I could see what's in that underexposed shot", and the workarounds are so-very 2006. Also, single user DAM products are thin on the ground - there's no money in them. So unless the OP needs multi-user functionality, it's hard to see why Lightroom wouldn't be the choice.
I wish I knew more about using my LR. One thing that makes sense. It's that learning everything about one program is better than learning and using two programs with less knowledge about each.
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I see no reason not to, while always allowing for the unexpected.
They have always refused to give a time table, other than they were still working on it, until earlier this year when they said by the end of the year.
In August they confirmed the end of the year "even if it kills us"
On 28th October they again confirmed they were still on track for a release before the end of the year.
And betas are already with users.
This sounds fairly promising to me.
Cheers,
Graham
And you've not heard all that before?
It'll be just a browser.
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I wish I knew more about using my LR. One thing that makes sense. It's that learning everything about one program is better than learning and using two programs with less knowledge about each.
So very true.
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And you've not heard all that before?
It'll be just a browser.
No, as I said, I haven't, I have never seen them give a time frame before.
Cheers,
Graham
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So where have you seen this commitment? Any URL?
I've followed PM pretty closely for over 10 years. While I don't doubt their commitment to their core product, I'm surprised anyone credits their promises of a catalogue-based product. Maybe a miracle will happen though. But in 2019, why would a photographer ever want a cataloguing app that doesn't display images with their adjusted appearance?
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So where have you seen this commitment? Any URL?
I've followed PM pretty closely for over 10 years. While I don't doubt their commitment to their core product, I'm surprised anyone credits their promises of a catalogue-based product. Maybe a miracle will happen though. But in 2019, why would a photographer ever want a cataloguing app that doesn't display images with their adjusted appearance?
I have just been carefully following their comments on the user forum over the years. Here is a link to one post
http://forums.camerabits.com/index.php?topic=10179.15
And I guess we all want something different from a DAM, long term I want a DAM that is independent of any photo processing software, so my database of raw and final images are unaffected by any changes in processing software.
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Thanks, that's more definite than I've seen for a while. It'll be interesting - if it happens. But they'll struggle to break out of their market. Aperture and Lightroom proved the obvious value of a DAM application showing what your pictures look like.
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Thanks, that's more definite than I've seen for a while. It'll be interesting - if it happens. But they'll struggle to break out of their market. Aperture and Lightroom proved the obvious value of a DAM application showing what your pictures look like.
How's that different from what e.g. OnOne's On1 PhotoRaw (https://www.on1.com/) or Skylum's Luminar DAM module has to offer, or will offer, including some others who are working on such capabilities/applications? They too will show the current state of editing alongside the metadata needed for actually managing those assets. Besides, Raw converters like Capture One Pro also offer capabilities to manage one's images and metadata.
Anyway, there are multiple ways one can manage one's Digital Assets. It largely depends on the specific requirements which approach is 'best' for a specific user. The OP's requirements seem pretty straightforward, but maybe he has other things in mind we do not know about, which makes it hard to be specific.
Cheers,
Bart
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How's that different from what e.g. OnOne's On1 PhotoRaw (https://www.on1.com/) or Skylum's Luminar DAM module has to offer, or will offer, including some others who are working on such capabilities/applications? They too will show the current state of editing alongside the metadata needed for actually managing those assets. Besides, Raw converters like Capture One Pro also offer capabilities to manage one's images and metadata.
Not really different. The indications are that they do let you properly see the pictures you're managing, as C1 does. But I wonder if they will offer features they are marketing as DAM, ie whether they are browsers like Bridge rather than catalogues like LR, Aperture - and C1.
Anyway, there are multiple ways one can manage one's Digital Assets. It largely depends on the specific requirements which approach is 'best' for a specific user. The OP's requirements seem pretty straightforward, but maybe he has other things in mind we do not know about, which makes it hard to be specific.
There are of course multiple ways and specific requirements, but we shouldn't fall into the YMMV trap of saying they are all equal. On the little we know of the OP's perceived needs, properly showing how your photos look should be the starting point for any recommendation. People don't seem to remember how crap things once were.
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There are of course multiple ways and specific requirements, but we shouldn't fall into the YMMV trap of saying they are all equal. On the little we know of the OP's perceived needs, properly showing how your photos look should be the starting point for any recommendation. People don't seem to remember how crap things once were.
I'm not so sure that's the case. Managing assets has much more to do with managing metadata and storage locations. I'd prefer a tool that excels at that (but that's me), and also gives a decent impression of what the image looks like. There's also a risk of "Jack of all trades, master of none".
Sure, it's nice to also have a decent preview, but if images are repurposed for different media and modalities, that's going to be a soft proofing compromise anyway.
Cheers,
Bart
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It is patently the case. Any DAM will by definition handle metadata and storage locations, so there's very little point in choosing one that fails to show photos with your corrections. Unless you want to make work for yourself.
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It is patently the case. Any DAM will by definition handle metadata and storage locations, so there's very little point in choosing one that fails to show photos with your corrections. Unless you want to make work for yourself.
you fail to comprehend that some people use more than on raw converter - hence there is a big point not to get sucked into a primitive DAM like LR is...
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you fail to comprehend that some people use more than on raw converter - hence there is a big point not to get sucked into a primitive DAM like LR is...
If that view had any merit, you wouldn't hide behind a pseudonym.
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But they'll struggle to break out of their market. Aperture and Lightroom proved the obvious value of a DAM application showing what your pictures look like.
I guess we will need to wait and see.
As indicated in my earlier posts, useful as it is (and I have both LR and C1 catalogues), having a catalogue for raw and final images that is independent of the processing program is, long term, more important to me, and I'm guessing from comments over the years from people looking for a good standalone DAM means I'm not alone.
But, everyone works differently.
Cheers,
Graham
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As indicated in my earlier posts, useful as it is (and I have both LR and C1 catalogues), having a catalogue for raw and final images that is independent of the processing program is, long term, more important to me, and I'm guessing from comments over the years from people looking for a good standalone DAM means I'm not alone.
It's what some people say, and it is inherently a good ideal, but not enough put their money where their mouth is (not directed at you!). So one part of the standalone DAM market like Extensis could only continue by targeting enterprise-level customers with multi-user and then cloud-based features, where it has been joined by new players like Libris. The part that remained single-user like iView-Expression-C1Media Pro has almost disappeared, though iMatch is still around. I'd be surprised if PM go after the first market, which is viable but crowded, while the second makes one wonder why CameraBits think they can succeed where other strong players like Microsoft and PhaseOne failed.
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So did you try imatch?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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The part that remained single-user like iView-Expression-C1Media Pro has almost disappeared, though iMatch is still around. I'd be surprised if PM go after the first market, which is viable but crowded, while the second makes one wonder why CameraBits think they can succeed where other strong players like Microsoft and PhaseOne failed.
There is also Photo Supreme and Neofinder/Abemeda, with a reasonable number of people bemoaning the loss of Media Pro. And Daminion and Mylio?. The main failing, I think, was that Phase One never really put any effort into it, just as Microsoft hadn't before them. From day one, it was difficult to find it on their website (Phase One's) and the user guide was never included in the Phase One documentation pages. Bugs went unfixed, and it needed a major rewrite to let it run with upcoming Mac OS's.
The obvious target market of C1 users looking for a more robust DAM than C1 offered were disappointed because of poor integration, and existing users of iView Media (such as myself) continued to be disappointed because, just like MS, Phase One did virtually nothing to update the program, and it seemed that Media Pro was only a stop gap until they progressed their real interest of adding a DAM feature to C1.
I think Camera Bits are in a different position, they are small specialist company selling a niche product to a niche market, with a product (PM5) well overdue for an upgrade. Like many PM5 users (I'm assuming), I would be upgrading to PM6 even if it didn't add a DAM. And they may well pick up some Media Pro users, as well as users looking to try an alternative to one of the few remaining single user DAMs.
But Camera Bits presumably have their own problems as more and more people are probably just using LR etc to do things that PM does. I bought PM4, not because I was the obvious market, but because I found LR unusably slow for culling and image management. But, I still find it such a useful "swiss army knife" of file ingestion and management that I wouldn't want to live without it now.
The other question is whether it will be a "proper" DAM that also catalogues audio files, Word files, PDFs etc, or will it be a specialist photographic DAM.
It seems reasonable to assume it's a small market, but given Camera Bits existing product, and its user base, plus the reputation of the company within the industry for this type of program, I'm not sure that a comparison of how well Phase One and MS did with a DAM, is a good indicator of how well Camera Bits will do with PM6. And of course, taking on your point, the market is likely to shrink as most users are probably looking for an integrated DAM/Raw Processor, which is increasingly becoming the standard with most raw processors, either already available or on the way.
Any way its apparently going to be available as a public beta soon, so I look forward to seeing what it has to offer.
Cheers,
Graham
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Mylio is about managing your photos with their adjustments, and Microsoft's acquisition of iView was driven by that need. They really wanted the iView people for the team developing SmartFlow, their LR/Aperture competitor. And I agree with your suspicions about with PhaseOne seeing MediaPro as a stop gap. They made efforts to make it show C1 adjustments, and then added the DAM features into C1 itself. I assume they've all done their market research.
But PM is indeed in its own market with a loyal user base, driven by culling and turnaround speed. Many users like you will just upgrade anyway, so if PM6 does come out they'll struggle to distinguish if the catalogue has any effect on sales. I hope you're not waiting too long....
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But PM is indeed in its own market with a loyal user base, driven by culling and turnaround speed. Many users like you will just upgrade anyway, so if PM6 does come out they'll struggle to distinguish if the catalogue has any effect on sales. I hope you're not waiting too long....
Except they may pick up improved customer retention, a return of old customers, and an upward turn in new customers. Plus a change in the type of technical support questions, e.g if in spite of the DAM all the technical support requests still revolve around culling, then the DAM may have been a waste of time.
And yes, I hope PM6 isn't that much longer, although I have been running a parallel catalogues in LR and Neofinder, as I've never really believed Media Pro would survive (and LR has some nice features) I have been looking forward to PM6 for a long time. Let's hope it lives up to my expectations!!
Cheers,
Graham
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So PM6 isn't this year (http://forums.camerabits.com/index.php?topic=11528.15) after all. I can't say I am at all surprised - after all, what's another year?
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So PM6 isn't this year (http://forums.camerabits.com/index.php?topic=11528.15) after all. I can't say I am at all surprised - after all, what's another year?
Yes, a bit disappointing. They have always avoided giving any time frame until now, so I was hoping for at least the public beta this year.
Cheers,
Graham
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It is time to put some more order in my Hassie / Leica S files.
How much order are they in now?
If you knew the shooting date could you find any file in under a minute?
If the answer is no then you probably need some file management before starting anything else.
I have all of my files in the one drive. The file structure for raw files goes ImageLibrary / Originals / 2019 / Canon (say) / YYYY-MM-DD_FirstFileInThe Folder / YYYY-MM-DD_IMG1234.CR2
So I can find any file very quickly.
The Aperture Catalogue, Lightroom Catalogue, Photos Catalogue, C1 catalogue are all on the same drive so they can all look at the same files and I can put the drive on another computer.
As there is only one drive to backup, it gets backed up several times a day and the multiple backups get rotated around to different locations.
I based it all on the Chase Jarvis Workflow which you can find on Mr Google.
For what its worth I use Aperture as my software library. It is simply the best but I would obviously not recommend starting with it now. If a better one comes out I will migrate, but that is not the current situation.
Cheers
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Yes, a bit disappointing. They have always avoided giving any time frame until now, so I was hoping for at least the public beta this year.
I recently downloaded the PM6 trial and I like it, but I can't see any real DAM features as such.
Is this what was expected?
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I recently downloaded the PM6 trial and I like it, but I can't see any real DAM features as such. Is this what was expected?
Not really, PM6 doesn't have any DAM features. The DAM features are in PM6 plus, which is in restricted public beta. The "restricted" means only licensed users of PM6 can run the beta of PM6 plus.
The DAM features look like a really good addition to PM6 as a search and organisational tool, but still seems a to have some way to go before becoming what I would consider a full DAM. But its still in beta, and I'm not sure if all features for the final release are currently in the beta.
Contrary to what I thought, and while welcoming the new features in PM6 Plus, which I will upgrade to, I will probably continue using Neofinder as my DAM.
Cheers,
Graham
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PM6 is so MUCH SLOWER than PM5, even though they say it should be faster. It's a joke. I lost all my hope and respect for Camera Bits.
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PM6 is so MUCH SLOWER than PM5, even though they say it should be faster. It's a joke. I lost all my hope and respect for Camera Bits.
It's a "bit" slower for me as well, but many people are also reporting how much faster it is for them. So not sure what to think.
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Not really, PM6 doesn't have any DAM features. The DAM features are in PM6 plus, which is in restricted public beta. The "restricted" means only licensed users of PM6 can run the beta of PM6 plus.
The DAM features look like a really good addition to PM6 as a search and organisational tool, but still seems a to have some way to go before becoming what I would consider a full DAM. But its still in beta, and I'm not sure if all features for the final release are currently in the beta.
Contrary to what I thought, and while welcoming the new features in PM6 Plus, which I will upgrade to, I will probably continue using Neofinder as my DAM.
Cheers,
Graham
Just looked for it and Camera Bits have removed the beta from the page they were using to distribute it.
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Just looked for it and Camera Bits have removed the beta from the page they were using to distribute it.
They moved it to the PM Announcements section. As of today, Photo Mechanic Plus Beta 9 is available (for registered PM users).
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Check out On1 Photo RAW. It has DAM since the most recent releases and version 2020 is out in public beta now. You can try if for free.
I own Photo RAW 2019, but I don't use it much.
My RAW processor and DAM program of choice is Capture One Pro, now at version 12. It gets better and faster with each release. I have been a user since version 9. It is a superior RAW processor and image editor to Lightroom. I cancelled my Creative Cloud subscription 2 years ago since converting my LR catalogs to C1P.
C1P is so powerful, that I no longer use any sort of plug-ins like NIK or On1. You don't need them with C1P.
Regards,
Bud James
Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.