Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: narikin on October 22, 2018, 05:54:10 pm
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Last time I used 'Metallic' inkjet paper, c 2014, I was pretty disappointed. It seems spraying ink onto a bright polyester base just killed it. Has that changed at all? Have things improved with the new papers or... not really?!
I can get Fujiflex c-prints made at the local lab here, but would rather avoid that lack of personal QC and crazy expense, if I can get close enough on an Epson, that would be great. (Epson P20000 printer)
Thanks!
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I've written three reviews of metallic papers for this website, the most recent of which is the review of Hahnemuhle's new Metallic Rag, which based on what you are looking for, may be your best bet.
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Thanks Mark,
I saw your article last month, but didn't 'process' it.
It looks like a good paper, but sounds less glossy metallic than I'd want. (you say pearl/luster finish, with some texture) Plus no profile for P10000/20000 printers as yet, and as you well know, it's near impossible to make one without special equipment!
Moab metallic seem more to my needs.
I'll try to check both out at Photo East this week.
Thanks
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The Moab metallic papers are definitely glossier, so if that's the look you want you'd be better trying either the silver or pearl tinted varieties. For the Hahnemuhle, if you wanted to give it a try anyhow, you could get a custom profile made, or you could contact Hahnemuhle, tell them the printer you need the profile for and perhaps they would make one, as it would also serve others owning the same printer.
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I've compared four metallic papers (so far) from Breathing Color, Moab, Red River (Mitsubishi) and Kodak and the most metallic looking one is Breathing Color's Vibrance Metallic (the others looked more pearlescent).
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Thanks to you both for help. Useful!
Yes its the ultra-gloss look I want, with a hint of metallic. Just like the old Glossy Ciba's.
Prefer not the low gloss printed on metal plate look. Appreciate that is good for other projects though.
I'll check out store samples, though I suspect breathing color is not in B&H.
Photo East in 48hrs, so I can cross check samples there. Will post an impression after then, if I have time.
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Yes its the ultra-gloss look I want, with a hint of metallic. Just like the old Glossy Ciba's.
Prefer not the low gloss printed on metal plate look. Appreciate that is good for other projects though.
I'm a little confused about what you disliked about the metallic papers in the past. In your initial post you said "spraying ink onto a bright polyester base just killed it" but I don't know what that means.
If you want an ultra-gloss look with a hint of metallic that approximates Ilfochrome your best bet is probably the Pictorico PPF150 Pro Hi-Gloss White Film, but that prints much better with a dye printer than a pigment printer though it might print well if your printer has a gloss optimizer. But it is the definition of a "bright polyester base".
Personally, I like the Epson Metallic Photo Paper glossy the best of the different metallic papers I've tried but it definitely has a strong metallic look. I haven't tried the new Hahnemuhle paper Mark reviewed but it certainly sounded nice.
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I just finished a 3 image series 30x40 prints on Epson metallic glossy, I was hesitant to print on it after reading lots of negative PR.
But I had a full roll so I rip three off and they stayed in the bottom of the printer for two days. When I finally got them layed out under the lights I was blown away. The images were of the super bloom at Carrizo National Monument shot with a H6D 100c and 100mm lens. My hand was freezing off hanging the camera out the window at 1000’ never thought I would get any keepers!
The pilot who flew me was a photographer I gave him these prints as a gift he too was blown away by the images.
I can’t recommend this paper highly enough.
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If you want an ultra-gloss look with a hint of metallic that approximates Ilfochrome your best bet is probably the Pictorico PPF150 Pro Hi-Gloss White Film, but that prints much better with a dye printer than a pigment printer though it might print well if your printer has a gloss optimizer. But it is the definition of a "bright polyester base".
That's so strange, before you posted, I was in Adorama, and ended up buying just what you suggested: Pictorico Pro Hi-Gloss, on the same basis - ultra glossy nearest thing to Fujiflex/ Glossy Ciba's.
My printer doesn't have a gloss optimizer, and it's pigment, so, the problem has been the printed areas get significantly duller than the native untouched paper. Like you mention, I think it would be better with Dye printers, than pigment, but I don't use those.
The Pictorico is chock full of OBA's - off the charts, but it will do for this experiment. It profiles fine too, as its not really a 'metallic'.
I guess what I'm looking for is ultra glossy with just a hint of that metallic/pearlescent sheen that the Fuji's & Ciba's had. The new deeply metallic papers that are out there now are really a new inkjet development (Like Moab's Silver Metallic etc). Those are amazing products, but not the Cibachrome imitators I'm seeking for this work.
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*Oh, and just to throw this in there, the Pictorico 17" Roll came in a box that puts to shame every other manufacturers I've seen in 25 years of roll printing. Really good packaging, clever design, very strong, materials, well protected.
Pay attention Canson, Hahnemuhle, Epson, Canon, Moab - the Japanese are going to show you how it's done right!
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The Pictorico is chock full of OBA's - off the charts, but it will do for this experiment. It profiles fine too, as its not really a 'metallic'.
I'm not entirely sure the Pictorico Hi-Gloss White film is loaded with OBAs. Its plastic substrate is PET and PET exhibits natural UV fluorescence. I've looked at Pictorico H-GWF in cross-section and it appears no additional OBAs are in the ink receptor coating(s). So the jury's out as to how well it will perform in a light fade test. Anyway, I've printed on it with both the Canon 100 (dye-based) and the Canon Pro-1000 (pigmented ink). The Pro-100 prints totally nailed the Cibrachrome look. The Pro-1000 were not quite as perfect but still very impressive because the ultrasmooth surface allowed the Lucia Pro-11 Chroma Optimizer to do a great job at eliminating bronzing and differential gloss on the Hi-Gloss White film. Dmax areas do have a little differential gloss with reduced goss owing to the fact that the CO ink does not coat in those areas, but it's not bad. I would happily print on the Pictorico H-GWF with a Canon Pro-1000, 2000, or 4000 pigment ink printer for applications where super smooth high gloss is the look one is trying to achieve.
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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In the US, you can get a sample pack from IT Supplies with 2 shts, 8.5x11 inches of 7 different metallic papers
Simply Elegant Metallic Chrome Gloss
Simply Elegant Metallic Pearl
Epson Metallic Glossy
Epson Metallic Luster
Moab Slickrock Silver
Moab Slickrock Pearl
Kodak Metallic Platinum
I ordered them a couple years ago and my conclusions were:
Hated the Moab Slickrock Metallic Silver. Very weird looking paper.
The Epsons seemed to have bad profiles, so I don't know what they'd be like with proper profiles.
Kodak was on a thin, lighter substrate. It felt flimsy compared to the others
S.E. Metallic Pearl didn't have the "depth" of the best.
I liked the S.E. Metallic Chrome Gloss slightly better than the Moab Slickrock Metallic Pearl, but they were very close.
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I'm not entirely sure the Pictorico Hi-Gloss White film is loaded with OBAs. Its plastic substrate is PET and PET exhibits natural UV fluorescence. I've looked at Pictorico H-GWF in cross-section and it appears no additional OBAs are in the ink receptor coating(s). So the jury's out as to how well it will perform in a light fade test. Anyway, I've printed on it with both the Canon 100 (dye-based) and the Canon Pro-1000 (pigmented ink). The Pro-100 prints totally nailed the Cibrachrome look. The Pro-1000 were not quite as perfect but still very impressive because the ultrasmooth surface allowed the Lucia Pro-11 Chroma Optimizer to do a great job at eliminating bronzing and differential gloss on the Hi-Gloss White film. Dmax areas do have a little differential gloss with reduced goss owing to the fact that the CO ink does not coat in those areas, but it's not bad. I would happily print on the Pictorico H-GWF with a Canon Pro-1000, 2000, or 4000 pigment ink printer for applications where super smooth high gloss is the look one is trying to achieve.
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
The two best papers on the market for intense high color saturated graphic type images are metallic and white film. The metallic has a larger angle of view before the colors look faded and the white film looks good because of the perfectly smooth substrate. Ideally I'd like to see a metallic surface on a white film base but that may not be technically feasible. But if it were possible that combination would come closest to looking like Cibachrome.
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There is a metallic (slight) metallic base on Ilfords Galerie Prestige Smooth High Gloss white film. *Discontinued but still available if you look hard enough.
It is the best of the white films when printed with dye ink. We also use the Pictorico Pro Hi-Gloss White film which is a very bright white compared to Ilfords slight metallic sheen.
The third option if you want to save some money is Oriental Graphica high Gloss White Film. I could tell no difference from the Pictorico and it is substantially cheaper. Pictorico for 20 13x19 sheets is $155.80 on Amazon and the Oriental is $17.60 for 20 sheeets of 13x19.
Printed with dye ink and then face mounted to acrylic, fantastic look. Great for workshops teaching facmounting where many get thrown away.
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I've written three reviews of metallic papers for this website, the most recent of which is the review of Hahnemuhle's new Metallic Rag, which based on what you are looking for, may be your best bet.
Mark, Thanks for your review of the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Metallic. I haven't tried it yet, but based on your comments in the review it sounds like it might be very similar to Photo Rag Satin that I like a lot for B&W or warm toned monochrome prints. The PR Satin is probably less glossy, both in printed and un-printed areas than the metallic, but it is very distinctive and the printed areas have a beautiful soft sheen. I have some PR metallic on order from ITSupplies so I will try it to compare with the Satin.
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I have at least for now settled on:
* Inkpress Metallic Gloss (which is slightly pearlescent, about like the Kodak Metallic I used to get from Mpix a decade or more ago);
* Inkpress Metallic Satin (not as pearlescent, but not as glossy, sometimes a nice efffect); and
* Mitsubishi Pictorico Hi-Gloss White Film (which so far seems very similar to FujiFlex SuperGloss).
All are 'specialty' surfaces, and can look odd without the right image. This is very much a matter of taste. OTOH, I really like the look of the P51 I shot at a local show on Inkpress Metallic Glossy--but there was a lot of smooth aluminum and bright paint.
Note also that I only print with dye-ink printers. I'm a bit skeptical that I'd like them as much with pigment inks.
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There is a metallic (slight) metallic base on Ilfords Galerie Prestige Smooth High Gloss white film. *Discontinued but still available if you look hard enough.
It is the best of the white films when printed with dye ink. We also use the Pictorico Pro Hi-Gloss White film which is a very bright white compared to Ilfords slight metallic sheen.
The third option if you want to save some money is Oriental Graphica high Gloss White Film. I could tell no difference from the Pictorico and it is substantially cheaper. Pictorico for 20 13x19 sheets is $155.80 on Amazon and the Oriental is $17.60 for 20 sheeets of 13x19.
Printed with dye ink and then face mounted to acrylic, fantastic look. Great for workshops teaching facmounting where many get thrown away.
Thanks for the suggestion of the Oriental Graphica. Prices are absurdly cheap if the quality is anywhere near the Pictorico. I bought some boxes of the 13x19 sheets but I couldn't stop myself picking up a few rolls of the 17x66' for only $28 on Amazon. It probably won't print well on the iPF8400 but how could I resist those prices LOL. Maybe it is time to upgrade to a pigment printer with gloss optimizer.
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Mark, Thanks for your review of the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Metallic. I haven't tried it yet, but based on your comments in the review it sounds like it might be very similar to Photo Rag Satin that I like a lot for B&W or warm toned monochrome prints. The PR Satin is probably less glossy, both in printed and un-printed areas than the metallic, but it is very distinctive and the printed areas have a beautiful soft sheen. I have some PR metallic on order from ITSupplies so I will try it to compare with the Satin.
Satin tone & texture and Photo Rag Metallic tone and texture are different. Let us know what you think once you've tried it.
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I have at least for now settled on:
* Inkpress Metallic Gloss (which is slightly pearlescent, about like the Kodak Metallic I used to get from Mpix a decade or more ago);
* Inkpress Metallic Satin (not as pearlescent, but not as glossy, sometimes a nice efffect); and
* Mitsubishi Pictorico Hi-Gloss White Film (which so far seems very similar to FujiFlex SuperGloss).
All are 'specialty' surfaces, and can look odd without the right image. This is very much a matter of taste. OTOH, I really like the look of the P51 I shot at a local show on Inkpress Metallic Glossy--but there was a lot of smooth aluminum and bright paint.
Note also that I only print with dye-ink printers. I'm a bit skeptical that I'd like them as much with pigment inks.
Unfortunately I've only seen dye ink printers available in 13" sizes, which is just too small for me. If Canon made a 17" or larger one using their proprietary dye ink I'd buy one.
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Unfortunately I've only seen dye ink printers available in 13" sizes, which is just too small for me. If Canon made a 17" or larger one using their proprietary dye ink I'd buy one.
So would I.
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You can get a tank printer from Epson that is topped up with Epson pigment ink. There is also possibly a Canon or Epson tank model using their long-life dyes. If so, buy the relevant bottles and refill existing printer carts with OEM product. ( Current HP dyes are below good third party dyes in lightfastness.)
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... ( Current HP dyes are below good third party dyes in lightfastness.)
I'm not aware of this. Can you cite any pertinent test results showing HP Vivera dyes to be inferior to any specific third party dye set?
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Don't have test results but watching general fading of hanging works leads me to believe that the South Korean InkTec product might be a bit better. It's all maybe and might, nothing remotely scientific, but I couldn't see anything about the HP product that was worth the extra price. On their website www.inktec.com you can see they are no "johnny-come-lately" to the digital printing world. They also produce a line of printers.
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You can get a tank printer from Epson that is topped up with Epson pigment ink. There is also possibly a Canon or Epson tank model using their long-life dyes. If so, buy the relevant bottles and refill existing printer carts with OEM product. ( Current HP dyes are below good third party dyes in lightfastness.)
I'd bet $1000 that the Epson EcoTank printers and Canon MegaTank printers do not use, respectively, Epson Claria HD or Canon ChromaLife 100+ high-quality photo dye inks, and instead use much cheaper / lesser-performing inks. Also, most of these models are four-color only, although a few may be six-color, so for people used to eight to twelve colors of ink, you'd be getting lesser performance there.
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Correct, in fact they appear to have even worse dyes than their cartridges contain so far as fade goes. But the Epson Workforce range use bottles of Epson Durabrite Ultra Pigment ink. As yet only three colors and black. The Canon Chromalife 100+ isn't even available in anything but tiny cartridges.
It's an evolving market with high growth towards tank re-filling. With Epson pigment now available in bottles,they won't be the only supplier to offer this.
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The Breathing Color Vibrance Metallic, or the Moab Slickrock, work well for the right images of mine. As others have said, multiple brands of metallic surfaces are more similar than they are different. Normally after mounting I laminate metallic papers with a high gloss laminate to maximize contrast, color and sharpness. While not *serious art* the results are pretty dramatic when applied to the proper image, being displayed in a proper way.
John-
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The Breathing Color Vibrance Metallic, or the Moab Slickrock, work well for the right images of mine. As others have said, multiple brands of metallic surfaces are more similar than they are different. Normally after mounting I laminate metallic papers with a high gloss laminate to maximize contrast, color and sharpness. While not *serious art* the results are pretty dramatic when applied to the proper image, being displayed in a proper way.
John-
John, I am very interested in knowing what high gloss laminate that you use and what do you consider to be "the proper image, being displayed in a proper way" as I have just purchased a few rolls of Red River 66 lb. Polar Pearl Metallic and would appreciate how to get the best looking print from it>
I also see a few other metallic papers listed above and may try a few and compare to the Red River I am using
Stephen
Stephen
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Satin tone & texture and Photo Rag Metallic tone and texture are different. Let us know what you think once you've tried it.
Finally received some Photo Rag Metallic. Very nice surface and texture. I like the results even more than the HPR Satin. Also, just started printing with ImagePrint Black and they now have profiles for the photo rag metallic.
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Finally received some Photo Rag Metallic. Very nice surface and texture. I like the results even more than the HPR Satin. Also, just started printing with ImagePrint Black and they now have profiles for the photo rag metallic.
Oof, I got samples at Photo East and didn't love the surface. Very stippled/ textured. Mark has a photo of this in his review - its very noticeable.
Glad to hear others like this, but it's not for me.
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The third option if you want to save some money is Oriental Graphica high Gloss White Film. I could tell no difference from the Pictorico and it is substantially cheaper. Pictorico for 20 13x19 sheets is $155.80 on Amazon and the Oriental is $17.60 for 20 sheeets of 13x19.
Does the Oriental Graphica high Gloss White Film come in larger roll sizes? Outside of Amazon finding any information about this paper seems to be a challenge. Even doing a search direct on Amazon yields very little info. Is it sold under a different name?
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Does the Oriental Graphica high Gloss White Film come in larger roll sizes? Outside of Amazon finding any information about this paper seems to be a challenge. Even doing a search direct on Amazon yields very little info. Is it sold under a different name?
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/745909-REG/Pictorico_PPF150_4239_2_PRO_Hi_Gloss_White_Film.html
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Does the Oriental Graphica high Gloss White Film come in larger roll sizes? Outside of Amazon finding any information about this paper seems to be a challenge. Even doing a search direct on Amazon yields very little info. Is it sold under a different name?
Not sure how big is large for you but the Oriental Graphica High Gloss White Film is available from Amazon in a 36"x66' roll for $43. Amazing price.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HLSRSDG/?coliid=IQOXQWHTYRPIZ&colid=1KDK9TFQHW1AV&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
Amazon is the only place I have seen this product sold and I think it would be reasonable to assume it is either discontinued or no longer offered in the US>
After Dan's original post on this product I bought the 13x19" size and the 17" roll of this product. It is really great in the Canon Pixma Pro-100. Very shiny pure white surface with great depth and colors and no gloss differential with this dye printer. Using the 17" roll version of the High Gloss White Film with my Canon iPF8400 gives very different results. With pigment inks the gloss differential is fairly extreme and the printed surface looses its sheen and no longer gives that sense of depth. It still prints well but you aren't getting that Ilfochrome feeling that the Pro-100 gives you.
I would be very interested in hearing from anybody that has tried this stuff with one of the newer pigment printers that uses a gloss optimizer.
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Not sure how big is large for you but the Oriental Graphica High Gloss White Film is available from Amazon in a 36"x66' roll for $43. Amazing price.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HLSRSDG/?coliid=IQOXQWHTYRPIZ&colid=1KDK9TFQHW1AV&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
Amazon is the only place I have seen this product sold and I think it would be reasonable to assume it is either discontinued or no longer offered in the US>
After Dan's original post on this product I bought the 13x19" size and the 17" roll of this product. It is really great in the Canon Pixma Pro-100. Very shiny pure white surface with great depth and colors and no gloss differential with this dye printer. Using the 17" roll version of the High Gloss White Film with my Canon iPF8400 gives very different results. With pigment inks the gloss differential is fairly extreme and the printed surface looses its sheen and no longer gives that sense of depth. It still prints well but you aren't getting that Ilfochrome feeling that the Pro-100 gives you.
I would be very interested in hearing from anybody that has tried this stuff with one of the newer pigment printers that uses a gloss optimizer.
Thanks. I plan to try it on a Z3200ps with gloss opt set to ON. I'll post results
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For the ultimate faux Cibachrome, try laminating the Pictorico GWF with a thin, clear polyester laminate. I did a few some years ago and they are amazing. Dan Berg, didn't you do some of these when we used to do business together?
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I sure did. Used the Seal polyester hi-gloss. Just a real pain to do. That particular laminate is highly charged with static and seems to draw dust from a mile away.
I tried everything including purchasing the Kinetronics Ionizing Air Gun which did help a little.
50% throw away rate which is way too high to make any money.
Gotta have a clean room for gloss polyester and I mean clean.
But you are right when you get one right they are amazing.
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I don't recall having that problem. I must have done them on a humid day and I always handled media using anti-stat gloves and rag to gently wipe the substrate and cheap laminator rollers. I no longer have access to the equipment so the few I have are keepers. ;)
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We got plenty of keepers too.
Just a little too much effort for the reward.
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Oh, the days of someone else paying for my efforts. ;)
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I sure did. Used the Seal polyester hi-gloss. Just a real pain to do. That particular laminate is highly charged with static and seems to draw dust from a mile away.
I tried everything including purchasing the Kinetronics Ionizing Air Gun which did help a little.
50% throw away rate which is way too high to make any money.
Gotta have a clean room for gloss polyester and I mean clean.
But you are right when you get one right they are amazing.
For silkscreen printing of transparent inks on polycarbonate I used two opposing silicone rollers to pull the sheets through and right after that two Simco anti-static brushes. Simco anti-static blower over the rolling suction table, an anti-static bar behind the squeegees so above the inks. Humidity kept high. Removing the protection foil at one side off the stacked sheets first and right away through the silicone rollers + brushes to another stack. After that again when printing.
I guess two anti-static bars, one above and one below the foil is the way to go.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plo