Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: DavidPalermo on October 06, 2018, 07:20:25 pm

Title: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: DavidPalermo on October 06, 2018, 07:20:25 pm
I am looking for Epson's recommendations on which media types to use when printing in the Advanced BW Module of Epson's printer driver. (I have a P800 printer.)

I have 4 sample packs of Epson's Legacy papers...  I know there are sites out there using various media types but I am looking to see what Epson recommends rather than trying various ones and guessing. I would have thought Epson would have this info posted on their website but I can't find it anywhere. ICC profiles won't work because if I choose one of those I am locked out of the Advanced BW module.

I called Epson and they couldn't help at all. I tried to call again hoping to get a different person but they just closed.

Do any of you know where this information is posted if it is at all? 

Here are the Epson Legacy Papers:

Etching
Fibre
Baryta
Platine

Thanks!

David
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: DavidPalermo on October 06, 2018, 07:24:23 pm
I just noticed I posted this question over a year ago and Mark answered it.  Doh!
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: John Caldwell on October 06, 2018, 07:28:15 pm
Without knowing, I suspect you can reliably use PLPP 260 for Baryta and Platine. Driver media settings describe ink lints in the most general sense, paten gap, and a few other parameters I’m not thinking of. To be safe, you could increase drying time between head passes, from within the driver, for an increased margin of safety. For the other Legacy papers, looks for the next closest non-legacy paper type.


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Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: DavidPalermo on October 06, 2018, 07:34:28 pm
I don't want to guess...  I want to start at a place the the manufacturer recommends then deviate from there.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: John Caldwell on October 06, 2018, 07:38:47 pm
Sure, but you’re putting too much stock in Epson’s precision, in my view. None of us gets the best possible result with tweaking profile and media settings. Don’t underestimate the impact of your making some trial prints. It’s very likely that the above settings will get you in the zone of final results.


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Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: John Caldwell on October 06, 2018, 07:39:26 pm
...without tweaking...


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Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: DavidPalermo on October 06, 2018, 07:45:15 pm
I just find it best to have a starting point. If that works then I don't have to tweak at all. If I do want to tweak I still would like to start at a point the manufacturer recommends. Hahnemühle lists the info I need so I will probably stay with their papers as they are excellent but I want to give Epson's papers a try.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: digitaldog on October 06, 2018, 07:47:04 pm
Sure, but you’re putting too much stock in Epson’s precision, in my view. None of us gets the best possible result with tweaking profile and media settings....
How do you modify either?
You can select a different media setting of course but modify it or a profile (The later isn’t used with ABW).
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: DavidPalermo on October 06, 2018, 07:50:25 pm
My point is that if I start guessing at media types I will be wasting ink and paper. I'd rather start with what the manufacturer recommends. I know that some are very similar - like Velvet Fine Art and WaterColor Radiant White produce indistinguishable differences on Legacy Etching. If I know what the manufacturers recommend I have a better chance of making a nice print from the get-go!
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: digitaldog on October 06, 2018, 08:08:44 pm
My point is that if I start guessing at media types I will be wasting ink and paper. I'd rather start with what the manufacturer recommends. I know that some are very similar - like Velvet Fine Art and WaterColor Radiant White produce indistinguishable differences on Legacy Etching. If I know what the manufacturers recommend I have a better chance of making a nice print from the get-go!
You don’t have to guess. Follow the paper manufacturers recommendation or run a simple test.
**Download this test file for visually examining ink density. Used to test best media settings for 3rd party papers.
http://digitaldog.net//files/InkDensity.zip
Now tweaking profiles?
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: DavidPalermo on October 06, 2018, 08:14:04 pm
Precisely why I am trying to FIND the paper manufacturer's recommendations!!!!!

lol!
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 06, 2018, 08:18:22 pm
Well, if you have your answer from what I already advised you, what's the issue?

As Andrew said, for the ABW mode there are no Media Type settings. That part of the driver has its own in-built transforms.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: digitaldog on October 06, 2018, 08:21:05 pm
Precisely why I am trying to FIND the paper manufacturer's recommendations!!!!!

lol!
And NOW you know how to move forward if you cannot.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: DavidPalermo on October 06, 2018, 08:43:08 pm
"As Andrew said, for the ABW mode there are no Media Type settings. That part of the driver has its own in-built transforms."

I am very confused right now.  In LightRoom's Print module I choose Profile:  "Managed By The Printer".

I then press the "Printer" button and get Epson's print module.  (See enclosed image).  There is a Media Type there that allows me to choose many different settings...  I think I have to choose one don't I???  The example there is Velvet Fine Art which is what Hahnemuhle recommends for it's Photo Rag paper. Am I in error when I refer to Media Type for different papers?

I am not using an ICC Profile because if I do I am locked out of Epson's Advanced BW Module so I choose "Managed By Printer"....

What am I missing here?  ; (

 
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: digitaldog on October 06, 2018, 08:58:28 pm
David, you DO indeed need to select a media setting. I think Mark was referring to an ICC profile.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: DavidPalermo on October 06, 2018, 09:08:01 pm
Thanks, thought I was going insane there for a minute!  ;)
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 06, 2018, 09:40:47 pm
No, I meant no ICC profile indeed. Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: Panagiotis on October 07, 2018, 04:35:50 am
Hahnemühle lists the info I need...
I know this is a little off topic but I lately start to doubt the paper settings Hahnemühle and/or Canson use to make their profiles. For example for my printer (Canon PRO-1000) and their glossy papers both companies use paper types with a very low head height which is easy to introduce head strikes. Better is to make a custom paper type following the printer manufacturer recommendations and make a new profile on that or use that for the AWB mode.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: Chris Kern on October 07, 2018, 11:36:07 am
I am looking for Epson's recommendations on which media types to use when printing in the Advanced BW Module of Epson's printer driver. (I have a P800 printer.)

Covered here (http://www.ronmartblog.com/2016/02/epson-legacy-papers-reviews-tutorials.html) under the heading Lightroom Using Advanced Black and White—although I don't know how authoritatively.

I agree: Epson should make it easier for customers to find this kind of information.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: digitaldog on October 07, 2018, 11:44:23 am
I agree: Epson should make it easier for customers to find this kind of information.
For their papers indeed. The “problem” is 3rd party manufacturers that don’t provide a clue and those that then need help testing the correct settings.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: Panagiotis on October 07, 2018, 11:46:01 am
I believe I found what you are looking for. There is a pdf with settings in a zip file with every icc profile here (expand the ICC profile section):

https://epson.com/Support/Printers/Professional-Imaging-Printers/SureColor-Series/Epson-SureColor-P800/s/SPT_SCP800SE#drivers (https://epson.com/Support/Printers/Professional-Imaging-Printers/SureColor-Series/Epson-SureColor-P800/s/SPT_SCP800SE#drivers)

It's Premium Luster Photo Paper (260) for the two PK papers and
Watercolor paper - Radiant white for the two MK papers.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: digitaldog on October 07, 2018, 11:48:16 am
Covered here (http://www.ronmartblog.com/2016/02/epson-legacy-papers-reviews-tutorials.html) under the heading Lightroom Using Advanced Black and White—although I don't know how authoritatively.
I skimmed it quickly but the author seems confused about dMax vs. Lstar values and how to get that data in the first place.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 07, 2018, 11:54:35 am
I believe I found what you are looking for. There is a pdf with settings in a zip file with every icc profile here (expand the ICC profile section):

https://epson.com/Support/Printers/Professional-Imaging-Printers/SureColor-Series/Epson-SureColor-P800/s/SPT_SCP800SE#drivers (https://epson.com/Support/Printers/Professional-Imaging-Printers/SureColor-Series/Epson-SureColor-P800/s/SPT_SCP800SE#drivers)

It's Premium Luster Photo Paper (260) for the two PK papers and
Watercolor paper - Radiant white for the two MK papers.

Yes exactly as I told David two years ago.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: pflower on October 08, 2018, 01:24:40 pm
Slightly off the original topic, but since this thread is active I thought I would ask.

What exactly is comprised within the media type settings? 

The recommended media type for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag is Velvet Fine Art which can only be fed into  my Epson 3880 through the manual rear feeder.  Recently I was printing some A5 prints on Photo Rag and of course the rear feeder does not accept A5 size so I had to print through the standard sheet feeder.  In that event all the Fine Art media types are greyed out and the only Matte option was Enhanced Matte.

Idly I was wondering what practical differences there were between the Velvet Fine Art media type setting and the Enhanced Matte media type setting.  Is it theoretically possible to emulate one or the other through the Advanced Media Control panel in the Epson driver?

I really don't think that I have the energy to start doing lots of tests with a densitometer (can't actually remember where I put in any event).  But I was interested.  Can anyone point me to any discussions on this?  Google has not borne fruit in this regard.

Thanks
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 08, 2018, 02:12:55 pm
Media Type settings essentially determine the Platen gap, paper thickness, certain ink laydown characteristics and whether to use PK or MK ink.

The Velvet Fine Art coating is possibly different enough from Enhanced Matte coating that their Media Types would not be perfect substitutes.

I can't comment on feeder problems with a 3880. Usually, you can manage the platen gap and the paper thickness in the Advanced Media controls of the Epson driver, so I assume that applies to the 3880 as well. I don't have either that printer or the driver so can't verify.
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: pflower on October 08, 2018, 02:34:58 pm
The Advanced Media settings in the Epson 3880 provide as follows:

Colour Density - presumably that is the ink density lay down.  You can adjust from -50% to +50% and presumably this is a global ink adjustment.
Drying time per head pass presumably to correct for any "smearing" if the head passes too quickly.
Paper Feed Adjustment - which apparently allows one to adjust for banding if auto alignment doesn't work.  Never had to use that.
Platen Gap - I have always manually widened from whatever is automatically chosen by the media type - on Ilford Fibre Silk for example I was getting head strikes on the standard Epson Glossy medias so always set to wider.

I suppose the only really useful thing for manual tweaking is the colour density slider.

Having now remembered where I put my densitometer (a Heiland for darkroom use) I might sacrifice a couple of sheets of photo rag and see what difference there is between the two media settings.

Now I think about it, I can't think of a logical reason why Epson only allows Fine Art papers such as Velvet Fine Art to be loaded from the rear feeder - presumably something to do with the platen gap.

Thanks
Title: Re: Advanced BW - Epson Legacy papers (what media type???)
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 08, 2018, 03:19:36 pm
A number of "presumably"s there. As you suggest, may as well experiment and see what happens.